Mulw deer population????

[6616]

Combination of all the above I think: Competition from WTD, elk also have a lot of forage overlap with mule deer and we've got lots of elk. Lots of predators, high predator populations driven by high WTD and elk populations (mule deer are more vulnerable to predation). Recovery from the 96/97 die-off did not bring them back to previous pre-96 levels - that might be habitat related since pre-96 levels were probably above habitat carrying capacity. I really don't think the youth season or the any buck season has a lot to do with it, hasn't been around long enough and the slow recovery has been evident well before those came on line. Besides shooting bucks might lower the buck/doe ratio but it shouldn't cause a population decline because it does not effect reproduction. I'm thinking competition with other ungulates and predators are the main reasons. I also think hunting is more difficult and game is simply harder to find when predator populations are high, they're spooked and sticking to the thick stuff. Also I don't really think there was enough snow to push them down out of the mid-elevations (until this morning) so some people may be looking in the wrong places. I am reluctant to admit there's an actual crisis situation just yet, hope I'm right.

[bigben]

Combination of all the above I think: Competition from WTD, elk also have a lot of forage overlap with mule deer and we've got lots of elk. Lots of predators, high predator populations driven by high WTD and elk populations (mule deer are more vulnerable to predation). Recovery from the 96/97 die-off did not bring them back to previous pre-96 levels - that might be habitat related since pre-96 levels were probably above habitat carrying capacity. I really don't think the youth season or the any buck season has a lot to do with it, hasn't been around long enough and the slow recovery has been evident well before those came on line. Besides shooting bucks might lower the buck/doe ratio but it shouldn't cause a population decline because it does not effect reproduction. I'm thinking competition with other ungulates and predators are the main reasons. I also think hunting is more difficult and game is simply harder to find when predator populations are high, they're spooked and sticking to the thick stuff. Also I don't really think there was enough snow to push them down out of the mid-elevations (until this morning) so some people may be looking in the wrong places. I am reluctant to admit there's an actual crisis situation just yet, hope I'm right.

Me too let me tell you it has changed and I go into areas that I could pick the size of the buck I wanted now I am lucky to see a four point to enjoy a hunt with I hope your right but my senses tell me we have a problem with the muley population

[ThinAir]

Mulw deer are very rare...

[Fisher-Dude]

........our mule deer population is in serious trouble opeinging up youth season to any buck and then another month any buck .......come on people sometimes it time to wake up and smell the coffee .................. we have a mule deer crisis in our valley ...................... and with the state of the economy and all its not how we are to help our wildlife its how can we suck another $$$$$$$$$$$$ out of them ,,,,,,,,,,,,my two cents worth

100% incorrect. Harvest will NEVER affect mule deer population levels unless we get below 5 bucks to 100 does. We manage for a minimum of 20 bucks : 100 does with the seasons we currently have. There are no populations below 5 : 100 in the EK. Not even close!

People that spew this bullshit about how hunting affects deer populations really are their own worst enemies. To slam a season that has been in place for a single season without the science to back it up is harming your future ability to hunt anything, at all.

[happyhunter]

100% incorrect. Harvest will NEVER affect mule deer population levels unless we get below 5 bucks to 100 does. We manage for a minimum of 20 bucks : 100 does with the seasons we currently have. There are no populations below 5 : 100 in the EK. Not even close!

People that spew this bullshit about how hunting affects deer populations really are their own worst enemies. To slam a season that has been in place for a single season without the science to back it up is harming your future ability to hunt anything, at all.

What do you believe is causing the decline?

[skibum]

Should take up predator hunting

[bigben]

What do you believe is causing the decline?

Exactly what he said FISHER DUDE I don t understand your ability to not understand what a hunter sees and experience in the woods ....you have a theory that paper trail is the gospel of all things that is know to man in this case being the hunting scenario ,,,,,,,,I have many friends in the business being trappers and hunter s,,,,houndsman and all round good friends that have been hunting this valley for years and have experienced decline in the mule populations and in some cases are not finding the animals as they once where in the earlier years ................. I would like to base my theory on hands on experience and not on scientific data that always skews the facts that it goes on probability and average standard deviation ......its funny that where I work the computer is always different then the hand held meter and when it goes to be processed that 90 per cent of the time the hand held meter is right .....so with this in mind I am saying that our mule deer population has declined and it is not where it used to be I am genuinely concerned about it and trying to shed some light on it and it obvious because I am hearing the same thing in the circle of hunters that a hunt with ........... just my two cents worth

[6616]

Exactly what he said FISHER DUDE I don t understand your ability to not understand what a hunter sees and experience in the woods ....you have a theory that paper trail is the gospel of all things that is know to man in this case being the hunting scenario ,,,,,,,,I have many friends in the business being trappers and hunter s,,,,houndsman and all round good friends that have been hunting this valley for years and have experienced decline in the mule populations and in some cases are not finding the animals as they once where in the earlier years ................. I would like to base my theory on hands on experience and not on scientific data that always skews the facts that it goes on probability and average standard deviation ......its funny that where I work the computer is always different then the hand held meter and when it goes to be processed that 90 per cent of the time the hand held meter is right .....so with this in mind I am saying that our mule deer population has declined and it is not where it used to be I am genuinely concerned about it and trying to shed some light on it and it obvious because I am hearing the same thing in the circle of hunters that a hunt with ........... just my two cents worth

Don't get the idea that F&W stats are computer generated BS because they're not. They also are based on first hand actual sightings like you rely on. Carryover counts with age classifications are done regularily and the last few years F&W in Cranbrook has been doing post-harvest deer composition aerial surveys to monitor buck/doe and fawn/doe ratios. The data gathered is based on actual survey sightings by trained professionals.

I'm not real sure there actually has been a major decline since the recovery period following the '96/'97 die-off. Yes I agee, the mule deer population never did recover or stabilize at the same levels as pre-1996, we are all aware of that, but that is likely related to habitat and competition, and if it's habitat related the herd would have stabilized at a lower level, and we may never see those pre-1996 numbers again. I still believe that when WTD and elk populations cycle upwards MD populations are going to cycle downwards and visa-versa because they are the weakest competitors of the three, and this will be accelerated when predator populations are high, MD will suffer the most because they are the most vulnerable to predation.

Short-term, last winter was pretty rough, especially in the northen part of the region and I'd imagine there was somewhat of a a die-off, but it certainly wasn't a significant die-off like the '96/'97 die-off, and the effects should be short-term unless we have a repeat of those conditions again this winter. If we have a repeat or two or three bad winters in a row there will be real cause for concern.

We'd all like to see more mule deer, but we seem to disagee on how to get there, but the basic facts of wildlife biology cannot be ignored, and blaming the current situation on the youth and/or any buck hunt is ignoring those basic facts, buck harvest will not effect reproduction rates until there is a sperm shortage. Winter fawn survival is the key element and buck harvest won't effect that either. Fawn survival is directly related to predation levels and winter weather conditions. The only way harvest will effect reproduction is by harvesting females. Lack of growth in a herd is directly related to a lack of recruitment and low recruitment rates are directly related to low fawn survival rates and/or adult female mortaility.

[happyhunter]

I truly believe they are in decline and I believe that that's because of increased pressure from the predators. As far as fawn survival rates goes that should concern the bios (if they are seeing the same as me) which is only a couple of fawns per 15-20 does. If theres no shortage of bucks, if these does are all getting bred then whats happening to these fawns? Wolves, BB, cougars, coyotes is what. Just how high the pred populations are right now is easy to see as their tracks are in the snow all over the place.

[BCrams]

Its a catch 22 scenario bigben and in laymans terms:

If you want more mule deer ...... elk and whitetail deer numbers need to be cut way back. Do you support drastic reductions in elk and whitetail numbers with more liberal seasons? Of course, habitat restoration at the same time would be fanastic for mule deer.

Competition by elk and whitetail deer on available habitat do put a damper on mule deer numbers.

I'd say with the existing good mule deer buck:doe ratio's and given the existing elk / whitetail deer population and habitat conditions, mule deer are doing quite well. Of course if you all band together and say you want more mule deer roaming around, you need to realize elk and whitetail deer really need to come down in numbers and measures can be put in place to allow for that along with habitat work.

But it appears many want their cake and eat it too. Thats the social problem when it comes to whining about more liberal elk and whitetail seasons and then whine about mule deer numbers. Its a give / take. What do you want? Less elk / whitetail and more mule deer or more elk / whitetail and less mule deer?