Mule Deer Restrictions

[Wild one]

Curious wild one, are you a wildlife Biologist?

Nope not a bio

[Wild one]

Can you explain what BS is being flogged here and by who ? I'm curious

There is wildlife management for the purpose of exploitation and there is wildlife management for conservation

The first gets pushed hiding behind a front of conservation.

Both have there place when you are taking both hunting and wildlife in mind yes but what is preached is only the one side

Outside of the push for habitat and more funding what do you see pushed here?

Research the examples given from outside of BC. You are only getting part of the management system or data that fits ones goals. Fact of the matter is these examples are coming from 2 tier(or more) systems.

Is it wise to push nothing but management that is about utilizing as much of the population possible when we don’t have the funding to keep proper counts?

You make your own choice I am only saying educate yourself beyond what is being pushed here in BC. You make your own conclusion

I am not part of any organization and my hunting is a mix of meat and selective so my only agenda is hopefully see stronger management that is not 100% about exploitation

[Fisher-Dude]

Contrary to the above post, BC's utilization is at extremely conservative levels.

WT - we're barely taking 7%, but we could easily take 15% without any population effects.

Elk - why is there no failsafe 6 point, or 7 point if you want, season on Van Island? Why rely on 100:1 LEH when a sustainable GOS could be opened? Why manage this food source for trophy hunting?

MD - why are people up in arms about an LEH antlerless that takes 165 deer from a population of 35,000 animals in my home region?

All ungulates - why are we managing to sex ratios that include surplus male specimens for wildlife viewing and photography, even though those sex ratios may reduce the productivity of the herd?

We have a lot of social factors built into our current harvest regime. I agree that our bios need more info and more data - in the meantime, they have to manage conservatively. I expect more data would lead to more harvest and more liberal utilization.

[Salty]

Agreed ^ we run it very conservatively in BC. But the few that must will bitch not matter what.

[Wild one]

Contrary to the above post, BC's utilization is at extremely conservative levels.

WT - we're barely taking 7%, but we could easily take 15% without any population effects.

Elk - why is there no failsafe 6 point, or 7 point if you want, season on Van Island? Why rely on 100:1 LEH when a sustainable GOS could be opened? Why manage this food source for trophy hunting?

MD - why are people up in arms about an LEH antlerless that takes 165 deer from a population of 35,000 animals in my home region?

All ungulates - why are we managing to sex ratios that include surplus male specimens for wildlife viewing and photography, even though those sex ratios may reduce the productivity of the herd?

We have a lot of social factors built into our current harvest regime. I agree that our bios need more info and more data - in the meantime, they have to manage conservatively. I expect more data would lead to more harvest and more liberal utilization.

Very little talk of LEH not once promoted by myself

Might want to start looking at more then exploitation management and start realizing many want to see conservation management as well. Both have there place and why most places run a two tier system

But follow your path and others will follow theirs realize there is science to support both

This could go back and forth forever but I am done because I know that a strong possibility for change is in the works so see no need to invest further effort

[steveo]

My thinking with a very conservative management approach is hunters are losing opportunity in the now but how much does wildlife lose out in the long run. These are questions I have as well as probably others. In this day and age hunter retention and hunter recruitment are very important because in numbers there is strength and the antis are at our heals. Less opportunity means less eyes in the woods which fuels programs like RAPP line and the like. Less opportunity means less participation and that means less hunter dollars going to fund wildlife. Is it hunters dollars that drive the push behind exploitation management?

[Bugle M In]

Recruitment, is it that bad, or is it other social factors these days?
Look at all the things kids can do, and just start with the IPad.
Yes, it would be great to take my daughter out, and run into elk around every 2nd corner, but honestly, that never even happened when I was a kid!
If taking a kid, or even a new comer and exposing them to hunting, they do have to have something "inside of them"
that finds a love for being out there, not just because there is something to always take a crack at.
If that is what is needed in BC, it won't ever happen, unless it is canned hunts, because BC is way too big, compared to those small States in the USA, and the terrain too different, and too vast, to ever have game around every tree, and the money that is needed in BC, compared to size and population, is always going to be a problem.
I think some are smoking the "pipe" a little too much these days, and seeing visions of herds all over the place, for miles and miles....nope, not ever going to be like that here in BC...too many users, too many resource companies.

[Weatherby Fan]

[QUOTE=Wild one;1976559]There is wildlife management for the purpose of exploitation and there is wildlife management for conservation

By Exploitation You mean there's biologists in BC that are managing for their own self benefit ? can you elaborate on this ???

The first gets pushed hiding behind a front of conservation. Who is doing this ?

Both have there place when you are taking both hunting and wildlife in mind yes but what is preached is only the one side
So your ok with Exploitation for self benefit as well as conservation ?

Outside of the push for habitat and more funding what do you see pushed here ?

Well I see some guys promoting Habitat Enhancement and funding for the benefit of overall numbers of animals which in turn should produce more hunting opportunity for everyone, I'm not sure I see any exploitation in that theory ?
I do see some guys pushing for a wolf cull which I don't see any issue with that but am curious about the effectiveness of it ? I say shoot everyone you see but thats just me.

I know of one fellow on HBC who pushed for a wolf cull in his area and sent a letter to his MLA and had a follow up meeting with him, the MLA was in agreement that they needed to manage wolves in that area but he had one letter from a hunter(him) and stacks of letters from people against it so threw his hands up in the air and said what can I do ? I have no support from the outdoor community !

Research the examples given from outside of BC. You are only getting part of the management system or data that fits ones goals. Fact of the matter is these examples are coming from 2 tier(or more) systems.

Ones goals ? Well any of the biologists in BC I have talked to said they have used/studied/researched management systems from other Western Provinces and States extensively but a lot of the times they don't have the funding to effectively implement their own enhancement systems.
Not to mention that BC apparently has some of the best Wildlife Management systems on the planet but again lacks the funding to properly implement them.

Is it wise to push nothing but management that is about utilizing as much of the population possible when we don’t have the funding to keep proper counts ?

Well I'm sure we could always do better in every aspect of conservation but as you said yourself we don't have the funding so it's hard to effect change when the government treats Conservation and Habitat Enhancement as a necessary evil and just band-aids it year after year.

You make your own choice I am only saying educate yourself beyond what is being pushed here in BC. You make your own conclusion.

Oh no worries there I usually keep an open mind in all aspects of life and try not to pass judgement until I have seen/heard all sides of an issue.....not so when I was younger !

I'm not any part of any organizationand my hunting is a mix of meat and selective so my only agenda is hopefully see stronger management that is not 100% about exploitation

I belong to several organizations or conservation groups, WSS of BC,BCWF,WSS and of course Mission Rod&Gun club which gives me a BCWF membership, I like to support conservation efforts in BC as I can't always help physically so I donate monetarily....but Im making that choice to help.

I'm very confused at your last comment again as who is doing what for 100% exploitation ? are the biologists of BC managing BC for their own benefit ? I wouldn't doubt for a second the current provincial Government has had their palms greased in some form by some Eco Groups (ie-shutting down the Grizzly hunt) but I have a hard time believing our biologists manage or mismanage things for their own benefit ?

[Bugle M In]

Dana,
I appreciate your honesty, to say that your opinions have changed over the past few years hunting MD.
I also understand your frustration when "honeyholes" sort of dry up etc.
I have seen the same in other Regions, with other species, and even though I get criticism from one patron on this site, I also see similar issues.
Once where there were quite a few elk in the watershed, and then to a point where you had to be "an experienced" hunter to know where they like to hang out, to WTF, what is going on.
The one thing I know, for a fact, and I have talked to a CO in the are that is a friend, and to the GO, and even the 3 GO's before him, as well as the guys who work up there daily, and the fellow who owns a resort near by.
(so lots of people with daily local knowledge).
At 1st, they are just missing in the high country, they are not up there.
Then it's, "this area is dead", and then suddenly one day, it becomes, the habitat is bad (no new snow slides for years), and "if you see a wolf, take it down", and when I talked to the resort owner, he just said that from 30 years ago, the game has dropped by 70% he felt (talking Elk, WT, MD, Moose), and when I walk around up there, it sure does seem barren, even the sign in areas I know game use daily, is way down it seems.
But, the one thing that is different also, is, no one hunts up there any longer!!??
Used to be on that same 2 week period, I would be camped around 3 groups of 4 guys with horses, who would hunt all the way back into the high country, and down again, and then there would be usually another 3 groups of 2 or 3 guys on foot or mule.
And then the GO, with atleast 2 groups of clients
That was the norm!!, in a vehicle restricted area!!, and now, basically from what other tell me, our group of or 3 are the only ones really up there other then the GO, for a week or more, otherwise it's just the odd road hunter.
It's been like that now for almost 15 years (looked at old photos, and even I can't believe it been that long).
And the other thing that has changed, is the beetle showed up big time, with mountains completely covered with blowdown, and, lots of logging, going way back into nowhere.
The logging isn't like it is on the plateau around Cache Creek/Kamloops, but there are lots of cutblocks that should of helped game, especially in an area that wasn't seeing snow slides.
And many should be prime time right now, but, the GBear love it, other then that, there is hardly even droppings in most of them??
What I am saying is, I have seen areas just dry up, and it isn't hunting related, at all!
Believe, back in the 90's, I was becoming really PO about the Cow LEH for Elk, and the funny thing was, as far as success went, I had Bulls coming in often, and why,... very few cows around.
So even though our group had success often, we still saw that the Cows were just not around, and we had a bad feeling about it, and from point on, protested the LEH Cow.
So, I know I am not one of those hunters who don't care, or just want it one way...that's not me!
Why do I bring this BS all up.
Because I have watched an are die off, and it wasn't hunting related, and yes, they even put in 6pt to help.
Funny thing was, between the Cow LEH being almost gone, and the 6pt, it was looking up as far as Cows went!,
and as for bulls, never saw a change of any sort, BUT, then all of a sudden, boom, down went the #'s.
That is what really concerned me!! Why, after removing Cow LEH, and adding 6pt restriction, and we start seeing a lot more cows fairly quickly after only a few years, did they suddenly collapse even more??
Can someone please explain that one to me!!??...please??
It wasn't hunting, I know that, just know it...and no amount of restriction would help.
(more to come in next post)

[Bugle M In]

Part 2,
I looked back thru photos, and gave some thought to why things changed.
Wolves always existed in the valley, for 40 + years, yet it didn't seem to have an effect at the time.
I think of what Ourea said, in death of a valley, and it started to sound familiar.
Not from my experience, but from what the GO and the other hunters on horse seemed to be describing.
That the high Country was dying out, yet I was still seeing game.
But the beetle showed up, and it took a bunch of years, and seemed to happen right around the same time the 6pt
came in effect.
Like I said, at 1st thing were looking up, but then came that huge windstorm, and it destroyed so many game trails and just areas were game liked to hang in, like wallows, just everything that they once roamed in or rested in.
Suddenly, the game was no longer in these "honeyholes inside the honeyholes" you could say.
Then the flooding, and it ripped up big trails from high country to winter grounds (beginning of winter zones anyways)
Then more blowdown, but we had logging, but it only seemed to get worse.
Then, t was at that point, that we started finding wolf scat around, all over the place, year after year.
Somehow, IMO, the combination of Beetle kill, high wind storms and blowdownd and then a freak flooding, somehow, it created an explosion in Wlof #'s and, we started seeing Cougars, something we had never seen up there.
And then Bears.
My whole point is, I'm not sold on hunting being the issue.
I haven't seen the change in MD #'s like you are describing, but then I may be in a different MU then you or others here.
I see the Wolves, and I do worry that the same thing is coming to my MU, and I have seen how the deer have suddenly moved down, even without snow to push them down, closer to the highways etc.
To me, I wonder is it the wolves doing that.? ( I think so)
But, I can also say the logging up there is a big deal, and there Is now way that it also couldn't of affected the deer
patterns etc.
There is just nothing left up there, and what is there, you can barely walk thru anyways.
(and this in not a bitch on loggers or logging, I get that the beetle was going to swallow it up otherwise)
But before I am going to blame my fellow hunter for taking the 1st 4pth they see,
I have to ask myself, is something else at work here, or a combination of????
I just don't see things changing because of another restriction.
I do think we need more "survey counting" yearly!.
But, do think the Bios haven't been able to do the things they wanted.
And I do think Mother Nature is going to fix what we have neglected in the form of fires.
And if we can reduce some Preds, along with those fires, I think we all will be alright.
But, we need to make sure that in the future , the Bios and the ministry have money in place.
I care about what happens for the future, and I may not agree with some, but, I have seen restrictions just not do what they were intended to do.
LEH works for some species for sure, but I don't think the overall problem in BC is because our restriction are too liberal in the form of hunter opportunity, but that me, and my experiences out there, so that's why I have my opinion.