Why is the WKBGTA proposing a bag limit of 1 elk or 1 moose not both in BC

[Fisher-Dude]

Too bad Josh doesn't have sex ratio data or pregnancy rate data to back up his proposals.

You know, science and stuff to justify reducing the harvest of surplus male animals, since we know surplus mature males reduce the productivity of herds and cause further reductions in game populations.

No one has produced either of the two criteria above to justify the proposals. Without such data, the proposals become social programs to simply restrict hunter numbers.

[Bugle M In]

Damn FD...beat me to the my question.

Hi Josh, welcome to the forum...
It is a public site, so, just a heads up, thick skin is advisable in order to be a long term member...

As for your Mule deer resolution..
I question why Bio's would seek advise from a hunting club, or any hunter unless for this fact:
(and something you should be able to say point blank without research)

What is your fawn to doe ratio in the WK?
(I am not talking about buck to doe ratio...to be honest, I could care less about this number for the most part)
I am asking what those numbers in the Spring, right after the Doe's have dropped there fawns, NOT, just what
you evaluate in the fall, as numbers will be less then Spring due to predation and food supply, but just
"how many fawns are born in relation to Does.

Reason is this...
If it is normal (as considered by the Bio's), then the whole idea of "Bucks not breeding Does" is out the window.
Obviously, if the ratio is fine/normal, then there are enough Bucks "doing the job", and the fawn to doe ratio is
"proof in the pudding".

Did the Bios come and say the Ratio was low?
IF so, is it all the MU's in the WK, or just "some of the MU's"

If that is the case, then yes, we should consider giving the bucks a break during the "peak rut time".
OR, if it is just some MU's that are low, then only these MU's should see this sort of restriction.

IF these fawn to Doe Ratios are normal, then I seriously question the "real intent" of this resolution you speak of.

As for 1 elk or 1 moose...okay...for me, I am fine with that (but that is just me, and my opinion)
Yes, a hunter can purchase both species tags, and hunt both species, and if that hunter is successful, they are done.
The EK seem to be short in Elk #'s, and many say so are the moose in the EK, so such a proposal would make sense
to me, for the time, until such a time as #'s return....but again, I admit "it's my opinion" on that matter.

So, again, the mule deer resolution only seems "valid" if Bios have reported the "Fawn to Doe ratio's are low"...
Are they?
I know FD probably has those #'s...I don't (I admit that), but low fawn #'s in the Spring is the only "validation" you
would have to "encourage that resolution".

As for the clubs work....thank you....sounds excellent, and is what Gun Clubs do best...your club included.

[WKBGTA_BC]

Too bad Josh doesn't have sex ratio data or pregnancy rate data to back up his proposals.

You know, science and stuff to justify reducing the harvest of surplus male animals, since we know surplus mature males reduce the productivity of herds and cause further reductions in game populations.

No one has produced either of the two criteria above to justify the proposals. Without such data, the proposals become social programs to simply restrict hunter numbers.

I don’t have data? I have lots of data actually, a whole binders worth from the biologists I meet with on a regular basis.. What I don’t have is time to banter back and forth on social media. Where are your proposals for the next regulation cycle? I hope you submitted them because you seem to have the answers for everything. I’ll ask it one last time, are YOU going to get out there and make a difference or sit behind the computer screen and be a keyboard hero? Option is yours.

[Salty]

I don’t have data? I have lots of data actually, a whole binders worth from the biologists I meet with on a regular basis.. What I don’t have is time to banter back and forth on social media. Where are your proposals for the next regulation cycle? I hope you submitted them because you seem to have the answers for everything. I’ll ask it one last time, are YOU going to get out there and make a difference or sit behind the computer screen and be a keyboard hero? Option is yours.

Wow pretty sharp for a second post? You might want to look in to how much F D does for our sport before you start insinuating things, its considerable.

[WKBGTA_BC]

Wow pretty sharp for a second post? You might want to look in to how much F D does for our sport before you start insinuating things, its considerable.

I am not trying to be sharp and by no means am I insulting anyone. Simply justifying our club’s position, rectifying the accusation of our proposals having no factual documentation to support our views, and clearing the misconception that started this entire thread. Take with it what you will and know that we are always accepting new members with new ideas on how to improve what we are doing. We are having a meeting next week for anyone interested, we’d love to see some of the enthusiasm in this thread brought to the table and used towards something productive.

Speaking of insults...let’s not forget what 95% of this thread has been towards the WKBGTA. I strictly joined to clarify the misconception and be on my way.

[Walking Buffalo]

I am not trying to be sharp and by no means am I insulting anyone. Simply justifying our club’s position, rectifying the accusation of our proposals having no factual documentation to support our views, and clearing the misconception that started this entire thread. Take with it what you will and know that we are always accepting new members with new ideas on how to improve what we are doing. We are having a meeting next week for anyone interested, we’d love to see some of the enthusiasm in this thread brought to the table and used towards something productive.

Or you could have responded directly to his claim regarding the data.
That might have moved things forward.

[Dannybuoy]

I am not trying to be sharp and by no means am I insulting anyone. Simply justifying our club’s position, rectifying the accusation of our proposals having no factual documentation to support our views, and clearing the misconception that started this entire thread. Take with it what you will and know that we are always accepting new members with new ideas on how to improve what we are doing. We are having a meeting next week for anyone interested, we’d love to see some of the enthusiasm in this thread brought to the table and used towards something productive.

Good first posts and thanks for the clarification.It all makes sense to some of us.It would make sense to make those changes in the okanagan as well..

[bownut]

People of this post and whoever else this may concern,

My name is Josh and I am the President of the WKBGTA. I would like to start off by making an apology, that being it has taken me this long to respond to all of your friendly inquiries about our organization. I started reading this thread over a week ago but have been awaiting registration approval from the administrators to allow me to post.

That being said I am going to dive right into this popular thread and hopefully address all of the questions, complaints and personal attacks on our VOLUNTEER wildlife organization. As far as the document with "our" proposals that you have all reviewed, it is accurate in some ways and completely inaccurate in others. Some of it has been completely misconstrued and false information has been released to the public and I am thoroughly looking into how that happened and who is responsible.

Let's start with the Mule Deer proposal. Yes, we do want to see a shorter season and our reasoning is we would like to see the mature bucks breed the does in peace during the heaviest rut period which we believe falls between November 1-10 (in most cases). We feel that those illusive, mature, breeding bucks dummy up during the rut and get harvested at their highest point of weakness when they are distracted by their harem of does. Another concern for this time of year is the potential for heavy snowfall which pushes these mule deer out of their living rooms and forces them to breed at lower elevations which are easily accessible to all hunters. I can assure you that our proposal had absolutely NOTHING to do with the meat being tainted with swollen, rutted up scent glands. I am a mule deer hunter (along with many other members of our club) and I have sunk my teeth into September bucks right through to November 10th bucks and I have never thrown a morsel of meat into my dog's dish. Our focus for mule deer is NOT to see more "trophy" bucks that will fill our banquet walls as some of you have accused, but to see a healthy, thriving mule deer population again in the West Kootenays and province wide. We are well aware that regulation changes are very low on the priority list when it comes to things needing to be done, however, that is all the biologists asked from us when we drafted this document therefor that is all you have read thus far. What you haven't read is our views on habitat loss, controlled burns, wintering ground restoration, predation and road closures due to high accessibility in the back country, just to name a few.

Next, the Elk/Moose Proposal. Yes, we proposed a combined provincial bag limit for elk and moose to be 1. Our reasoning SOLELY being to take some of the pressure off both species. We feel that by making a hunter choose one of the mentioned big game animals instead of both, it MAY help reduce pressure on the unselected species. Our proposal had absolutely NOTHING to do with families not needing that much meat, we are well aware of how much meat a family can burn through during the off season, especially if wild meat is the only meat on the menu. We are not and will never be an organization that tries to dictate how much meat a family may harvest in a hunting season. Our focus for elk and moose is spot on with mule deer, increase population, decrease calf mortality and create a healthy, thriving population for both species in the West Kootenays and province wide. Again, we realize that regulation changes are low on the priority list but as you can see that is all this document focused on when we were asked to draft our views.

I'm going to address a few questions I've seen regarding our banquet and in return I am going to ask some of my own:
Yes, we do host a "trophy" banquet each year for successful hunters/fisherman to enter their animals/fish into the competition for the opportunity at a trophy or certificate and possibly a free shoulder mount.
Yes, we put up all these entries on display for all to see throughout the night.
Yes, we have a big awards ceremony.

Now I have a few questions for you people:
Did any of you know that we have a junior category for all hunters under the age of 18 where no minimum requirements are necessary in any class?
Did any of you know that the banquet is open for ANYONE to attend and our non-hunter attendance is high and increasing as the years go on?
Did any of you know that we hold a massive fundraiser at the banquet that generates substantial funding for us to donate back into wildlife?
Did any of you know that with that funding, over the last five years...
We purchased a mechanical elk decoy for our local COS?
We purchase 4000 lbs of sheep feed annually for the Bighorn Sheep on the Salmo-Creston Pass, pick it up, deliver it and feed them once a week throughout the entire winter?
We've donated funding to "Beaks" bird sanctuary?
We purchased salt and helicopter fuel for the Mountain Goats in the Slocan Valley and distributed the salt via helicopter high on the mountain range to ensure decreased highway mortality?
We donated money to the East Kootenay emergency deer/elk feed program last winter due to the harsh winter conditions?
We maintain our own local deer feeders in the event of a harsh winter season?
Did any of you know that our organization is 100% VOLUNTEER?
Did any of you know that our organization is over 60 years old and has been giving back to wildlife since the day it started?
Did any of you know that the WKBGTA is part of a Regional wildlife group called the West Kootenay Outdoorsmen where we meet quarterly, hash out concerns and work directly with our local biologists and the BCWF in hopes of correcting some of the many problems this province is experiencing with wildlife?

I could go on but I don't want to ramble, that's not my intent. Things to remember about those proposals are only some of the information was accurate and they were based on our opinion of the WEST KOOTENAYS. We understand that the province has many different sectors that need to be managed separately. I apologize that you were all misinformed and I wish I had answers as to how that happened. I personally drafted our proposals myself and I would be happy to share that document with anyone that would like to see it. As hunters we need to stick together and threads like this are nothing but great ammunition for the anti's and we all know they already have a full magazine. For those of you that were judgmental, confrontational and malicious, I invite you to join our organization and inspire us with your energetic views on areas that need improvement in our organization. Our door is always open to people willing to contribute, suggest new ideas and improvements and dedicate their time to our wildlife. It's easy to sit behind the keyboard and criticize anything and everything someone is doing but it takes a certain somebody to get off the couch and make a difference. Unfortunately, complacency is a huge reason as to why we are here today. Involvement is the only thing that is going to make a difference and that's what we are striving for. Our club is heading over with a truck and car trailer to pick up 4000 lbs of sheep feed for the annual winter feed program on Saturday and then attending the quarterly WKO meeting on Sunday. What are YOU doing this weekend to make a difference? Are you going to be a keyboard hero or a contributor?

I hope this helps clear up any confusion. If you have any other questions or inquiries we have a website and a Facebook page that may help you understand who we really are and what we do behind the scenes.

There is no confusion, anyone who speaks about any cutbacks in opportunity gets the same reply, "Wheres Your Science".

F/D and the gang will continue to hammer you with their data and tell us it's all good, and at the same time cry for funding for study.
How accurate is their data when we have been managing with minimal funding for so many years?
How is our fawn recruitment based on their underfunded counting systems?

Moving forward the clubs will still continue to run the projects that need running, and it's groups like yours that will continue
to focus their efforts on wildlife and the conservation of all species.

Keep up the good work, and don't ever bow down to the few individuals that are kicking at your knees.
Cheers Bownut.

[303savage]

I've harvested bucks in full rut, stinking to high heaven, and the meat was delicious.

I was told not to let the hair touch the meat when skinning the beast especially on a rutting buck.
Skin the beast as soon as possible and make all the cuts in the hide for skinning and then use a different knife or wash the knife.
Get the hide off as soon as possibly

[Sitkaspruce]

"Let's start with the Mule Deer proposal. Yes, we do want to see a shorter season and our reasoning is we would like to see the mature bucks breed the does in peace during the heaviest rut period which we believe falls between November 1-10 (in most cases). We feel that those illusive, mature, breeding bucks dummy up during the rut and get harvested at their highest point of weakness when they are distracted by their harem of does."

I have to ask, why do you think that "mature" bucks need to do the breeding?? Why not shoot some of those mature bucks when people can and leave other, maybe younger deer to breed? Not every "mature" buck is shot in a season. As far as I know, we never do counts on "Mature" bucks, so we really have no idea how many are out there, how many survive every year and, as Val Geist says, not all "Mature" bucks breed every year, some live in solitude through the rut. If sperm supply is not in question, then your idea of saving those "mature" bucks to increase deer numbers will not work. If it is to have more "mature" bucks to shoot in 5 years because they have not been hunted, then your idea will have a tiny bit of merit.......but only to those who want "mature" bucks.

I would also like to see all your data to show that science is behind your suggestions?

Cheers

SS