Five Point Bull Elk

[BCrams]

I'm not really an elk hunter although I like getting out for them. The Kootenay road closure stuff is intriguing. I spent 5 minutes deciding if I were to hunt a road closure for elk, I would just go way back with a bike and pack cart rigged up to it to the back end of West Alexander or the longest road closures in the Wigwam / Flathead. No expectations, just have a look at the map and go.

[Walking Buffalo]

Hahaha, I have a buddy in GP who has killed 3 B&C bulls there, so a 300 bull isn't a monster. Rode the horses all over 'public land' in that country that has lots of elk in it.

Sounds like a classic Husky story.

If only they had a 6 pts season over there everything would be sooooo much better.

Did his bulls come from a three point area?

The three point rule for Alberta is used in areas where management goals are to limit the herd size,
Used in conjunction with general archer cow and draw rifle cow licenses.

In the vast majority of three point areas a four year old bull is an anomoly excepting a few areas with large pri ate ranches.


How bad is the bull age structure component in our three point areas? The Alberta bowhunters association is
lobbying for rifle season to be put on a six point rule (archery to stay at three points) based on their claim that
rifle hunters kill all the legal bulls every year and no animals are reaching maturity.


With your work in wildlife management and a proponent of the sheep full curl/ 8 year old rule, I fi d it perplexing that you seem to be suggesting that having an elk herd without mature bulls is an acceptable
social structure.

[Fisher-Dude]

How bad is the bull age structure component in our three point areas? The Alberta bowhunters association is
lobbying for rifle season to be put on a six point rule (archery to stay at three points) based on their claim that
rifle hunters kill all the legal bulls every year and no animals are reaching maturity.

3 point bull elk are sexually mature. Sounds like someone wants the bush (and animals) to themselves.

[Ourea]

3 point bull elk are sexually mature. Sounds like someone wants the bush (and animals) to themselves.

There is endless data from all key elk states in the US that contradict your "long as there is sperm it doesn't matter the age for breeding" jargon. Why would almost all states agree to the same doctrine that the age of the bulls doing the breeding has an effect on the herd.

The data from these reports suggests that when older bulls do the breeding (as it should be in nature)

*pregnancy rates increase
*the rut is more synchronous and shorter
*less stress on both bulls and cows

It is a common understanding that to enhance herd productivity it is recommended that the season be designed so that older bulls are retained in the population.

This is not a hunters opinion, it's science.
If pretty much all US states accept and try and manage accordingly, one would think it is for very good reasons, based good science. They have far more resources than we have up here so I trust that they are not all wrong.

This is considered by the mangers of wildlife to be the gold standard for healthy elk herds.
Younger bulls doing the breeding has an effect on the population.
Don't argue with me....take it up with the bio's in all key elk states and tell them they are doing it wrong.

[Argali]

While most of the U.S. states with GOS elk rifle seasons do not have a 6 point rule, they generally have the rifle season well after the rut - like from Oct. 25 to Nov. 30. Hunting during the rut is archery only. Archery disturbs the elk rut to some degree, but much less than rifle hunting, particularly in open areas with heavy hunting pressure.

After the rut, it really doesn't matter which age class of bulls are harvested as long as a sufficient percentage survive for the next year.

The U.S. system is probably more effective as the rut proceeds more normally, and the bull harvest after the rut can be maximized across all age classes. The down side is not having the experience of rifle hunting during the rut and tough hunting after the rut. However, the archery during the rut is excellent!

[Fisher-Dude]

Someone better back up Oreo's statements with a good reason why we'd restrict hunters to shooting only the "mature" 6 point breeding bulls if having those bulls do all the breeding is "best for the herd."

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Yes. Maybe we should be targeting 3 pt or less post rut??

[Husky7mm]

I'm not really an elk hunter although I like getting out for them. The Kootenay road closure stuff is intriguing. I spent 5 minutes deciding if I were to hunt a road closure for elk, I would just go way back with a bike and pack cart rigged up to it to the back end of West Alexander or the longest road closures in the Wigwam / Flathead. No expectations, just have a look at the map and go.

If you want to hunt elk the hard way you can earn one the hard way. If want to hunt elk easy that you can get them that way too. In good elk country there are nice bulls 5 mins from town , living under everyone's nose like a smart whitetail. He sits and listens to all the trucks driving by everyday. He only moves with calculation. It's cat and mouse game. When war isn't waged against the entire herd the elk are also much more predictable and huntable.

[GoatGuy]

If there's some peer reviewed litt I would love to see it. Not sales sheets from game managers.

[Mikey Rafiki]

Someone better back up Oreo's statements with a good reason why we'd restrict hunters to shooting only the "mature" 6 point breeding bulls if having those bulls do all the breeding is "best for the herd."

I don't have any sources or reports or anything, but does this make sense?

If we allow all bulls to reach 6 point age you are guaranteed that many of them will breed before they are killed and you are pretty much guaranteed many will make it until the next year and beyond to do the same. Not just purely due to numbers but also because I believe those mature bulls are harder to kill than the 3 pointers. If you start targeting them a couple years earlier you obviously lessen the chance of them getting to that 6 point age. Of course right off the bat there will be more mature bulls that keep breeding and getting bigger due to the harvest of younger bulls, which is great, but once they start to die off is there enough young ones that made it to the 6 point age if the harvest it too great?

No expert. Just speculating. Don't jump on me for throwing this out there.