I have both these in 100 grain for my crossbow, I am using an excalibur scope, I sighted in using 100gr field points, and was shooting a 1 inch group at 20 and 30 yards. I switched to the broad heads to make sure I got a good group, with the mx4 I was getting between a 2 to 5" group and the phantoms were way out to lunch. Is that as good as they will get? The seem to spin true i'm using cabelas carbon stalker x bolt if that makes a difference.