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Thread: Flat Tops & Fireballs

  1. #1
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    Flat Tops & Fireballs

    What is a flat top?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Here is just some of the 11 deer(flattops) we saw that afternoon.

    Odocoileus hemionus - often referred to as a 'mule deer'. Males have antlers, known as "bucks", the females have no antlers, and are known as "does" or more commonly "flat tops" by guys from Newfoundland.

    Why? Flat tops are made up of a tissue on their bones that is called "jerky"

    Where? Region 5-02D

    Who? Two of the most premier members of the intraweb team together, for the most epic hunting adventure to unfold since the Chadwick ram hit the dirt 150 years ago

    How? grab a beer, even if it is 7am when you read this, and scroll down
    Last edited by todbartell; 10-10-2008 at 12:05 AM.
    "If you ever go into the bush, there are grizzly bears lurking behind just about every bush, waiting to pounce, so you need a powerful gun, with huge bullets" - Gatehouse ~ 2004

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  3. #2
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    Re: Flat Tops & Fireballs

    Now some of you may say, Flat top hunting? that is boring. And, I would probably agree, the amount of skill/adventure required to take a mule deer doe in the Caribou region is about nil. Drive down the road, spot flat top, get out, slam your clip into the 300 magnum, and get the knife, go home, and mow the lawn

    I dont own a 300 magnum, nor could I borrow one for my flat top hunt. I do however own a nice little rifle that is chambered in a cartridge that most would call marginal for coyotes. I would never suggest the use of a marginal cartridge for big game, but what makes a cartridge marginal, or "powerful" for that matter? Is it the amount of powder it burns? the speed of the bullet? the weight of the bullet? the diameter of the bullet? so many questions that have many different answers, depends on who you ask.

    I have always been fascinated with bullet performance. Testing this, testing that - it fuels my curiosity and desire to gain experience and knowledge first hand. I've concluded over the years that just about everything kills stuff real well, providing the bullet is placed correctly. I've also realized that a bullet has to be capable of providing enough expansion and penetration to work, because if the bullet fails even when delivered into a good spot, it will still give undesirable results.

    The rifle is a CZ 527 American chambered in the 221 Fireball. Basically a shortened version of the 222/223 that was originally designed for bolt action single shot pistols in the early 1960s. It's claim to fame was it gave, at the time, the highest muzzle velocity for a pistol cartridge ever. In a rifle, it's faster yet, but still lags behind a 223 by 400 fps, and a 22-250 beats it by about 700. Neither of those cartridges are commonly used on deer sized game, they are varmint guns.



    A guy would be silly taking this rifle into the woods for deer. A very light bullet traveling at high speed is a bad combination for reliable performance.

    A bullet company in Utah changed this in 2008. They designed a bullet that wasn't like your ordinary 22 caliber bullet. Barnes Bullets made a 45 grain Triple Shock X bullet, a 100% copper hollow point bullet designed to retain 99% of its original weight on impact. Hmmmm - this interested me.

    I looked at the box of the bullets on the shelf at the local gun store for months. Curiosity got the best of me and I purchased a box. Here is a picture of one next to what is commonly accepted as a minimum deer bullet, a 100 grain bullet used in a 243 Winchester



    Does that inspire confidence in you?
    "If you ever go into the bush, there are grizzly bears lurking behind just about every bush, waiting to pounce, so you need a powerful gun, with huge bullets" - Gatehouse ~ 2004

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    Re: Flat Tops & Fireballs

    I loaded a few rounds to test fire for accuracy. 15 grains of powder (for you non-reloaders, in comparison a 300 Magnum burns between 65-75 grains) behind the 45 grain TSX proved plenty accurate enough with zero load tweaking. My initial groups ran around 1" for 3 shots at 100 yards from a makeshift rest over the hood of the truck. Velocity approx 3200 fps @ muzzle.




    After many evenings of discussion about Flat tops & Fireballs, with a premier memeber of the intraweb, it was agreed that further testing was required before the Fireball could be pressed into service as a Flat Top KILLA

    As the hunt grew closer, and time ran out - the testing would have to be done at no better place than - deer camp. As always when going on a trip from home, I bring a second rifle as backup in case something goes wrong with my main gun. This time, the 2nd gun was brought along for the extra firepower. A 260 Remington was chosen, a solid deer cartridge chambered in a very accurate rifle. Perfect for flat tops you'd think, which you're correct. But how much fun would that be?

    Let the hunt begin....
    "If you ever go into the bush, there are grizzly bears lurking behind just about every bush, waiting to pounce, so you need a powerful gun, with huge bullets" - Gatehouse ~ 2004

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    Re: Flat Tops & Fireballs

    I left home at noon for the 3 hour drive to deer camp. My son left his home later that afternoon, traveling about 8 hours to camp. Five day hunt for Flat tops. no joke

    First order of business was to set up camp. A good friend showed up half an hour later, who has good experience with the area we'd be hunting, and we spent the afternoon cruising the area. A few flat tops were spotted, but the Fireball was not with me. My 260 didn't even leave the gun case, I was in no rush to take the flat top on the first evening from the road. I knew it'd be alot more satisfying if the hunt folded out with my son, who was still on his way into camp.

    With a good idea of where to start looking the next morning, it got dark and we headed back to camp to meet my son at 10pm. Although my son and I are close, we decided to sleep in seperate tents for our own safety.

    "If you ever go into the bush, there are grizzly bears lurking behind just about every bush, waiting to pounce, so you need a powerful gun, with huge bullets" - Gatehouse ~ 2004

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    Re: Flat Tops & Fireballs

    My son arrived and we got settled into camp. We hadn't seen each other in almost half a year, and celebrated into the early morning.

    Opening morning of the hunt found us glassing an area for flat tops.








    With a few flat tops spotted, but no shooters - we headed back to camp for some breakfast & Fireball ballistic testing
    "If you ever go into the bush, there are grizzly bears lurking behind just about every bush, waiting to pounce, so you need a powerful gun, with huge bullets" - Gatehouse ~ 2004

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    Re: Flat Tops & Fireballs

    How would a 45 grain bullet stack up against a variety of proven hunting cartridges? With such a light bullet - the worry is penetration. We decided to fire some bullets into the ends of pine firewood blocks at a range of 70 yards to compare results.

    First up was the 221/45 TSX with 6" of penetration



    Then it was a 260 Remington/125 grain Nosler Partition @ 2900 fps with 10"


    Then it was the 300 Whizzum loaded with 125 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips @ 3500 fps with 6"


    same as 45 TSX...hmmm
    "If you ever go into the bush, there are grizzly bears lurking behind just about every bush, waiting to pounce, so you need a powerful gun, with huge bullets" - Gatehouse ~ 2004

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    Re: Flat Tops & Fireballs

    next up, a reduced load in a 300WSM that produces the same ballistics as the classic deer cartridge - 30-30 Winchester

    the load features a 150 grain Sierra flat point @ 2000 fps - penetration = 7"


    Our last cartridge to test was the Barnes 130 gr Tipped Triple Shock X bullet in the 300 WSM. This is the hunting load in my son's rifle. @ 3500 fps at the muzzle, it ripped through the 13" block and exited
    "If you ever go into the bush, there are grizzly bears lurking behind just about every bush, waiting to pounce, so you need a powerful gun, with huge bullets" - Gatehouse ~ 2004

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    Re: Flat Tops & Fireballs

    Recovered bullets :

    L-R : 125 gr Nosler BT 300wsm, 125 gr Nosler Partition 260 Rem, 150 gr Sierra flat nose 300wsm reduced, 45 gr Triple Shock X 221 Fireball



    L-R in a different order just to screw you up : 45 TSX, 150 FP, 125 Partition, 125 Ballistic Tip



    My son and I agreed it was obvious that the 45 grain Triple Shock penetrated sufficiently in our test to press it into duty on a flat top. If it will virtually penetrate the same as the all time classic deer cartridge, the 30-30 Winchester, then it should work. We agreed that shot distance was to be held to a close to moderate distance, and that shot angle had to be broadside or quartering away. We were hopefully going to prove that bullet placement, combined with superior bullet construction, were the two most important factors in killing.

    We headed out that afternoon, covered alot of ground, seen nothing. The weather turned foul towards dark, and no flat tops were found.

    The next morning found us checking out a new road, when we should of been back in an area we knew held flat tops. We realized this soon after day break and turned around and headed for the spot. We stalked into our spot to glass, when my son was overcome with stomach pains. I left him and continued on to glass from a nice vantage point. I spotted a lone flat top about a kilometer from us, but it slipped into the timber. We agreed to come back after lunch and stake out the area where the flat top was.
    "If you ever go into the bush, there are grizzly bears lurking behind just about every bush, waiting to pounce, so you need a powerful gun, with huge bullets" - Gatehouse ~ 2004

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    Re: Flat Tops & Fireballs

    We returned by 5pm, hiked in and glassed. Within minutes, 3 flat tops were spotted feeding their way into the cut block. The wind was bad, but we had to make an attempt at a stalk. We got within 300 yards when they reappeared on a hillside of the cut. They were feeding, unaware of us. We were able to crouch down and creep up, using the grassy bank of the trail as cover. At 185 yards, the wind gusted about 6 different directions at once and it began to pound rain. The does milled around nervously and began to trot off. I had one broadside for 3 minutes at 222 yards but I would not take the shot. Too much room for error with a tiny bullet in high winds at that range to insure surgical shot placement. They eventually headed for the protection of the timber and we slugged our way through the road grease for 2km back to the truck...but we both agreed that the stalk was exciting, and that we didnt think hunting flat tops could get a guys heart going that good! Flat top or no flat top, at this point the hunt was a success, sharing quality time in the woods with my son.
    Last edited by todbartell; 10-10-2008 at 01:19 AM.
    "If you ever go into the bush, there are grizzly bears lurking behind just about every bush, waiting to pounce, so you need a powerful gun, with huge bullets" - Gatehouse ~ 2004

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    Re: Flat Tops & Fireballs

    A huge storm hit overnight, with high winds. The rain stopped by midnight but we awoke at daylight to +9 and high winds - not ideal hunting weather. As we headed out, we discussed how we'd be the laughing stock of the intraweb if we returned from our hunt with no flat top.

    The morning found us hiking into the same spot. We took Dana's advice and hunted one area until we knew it well, and persistence would hopefully pay off.

    A coyote ran in front of us at 200 yards. This was the perfect opportunity to test the Fireball TSX on a live animal. The coyote gave me a brief chance before turning and taking off out of sight. Oh well. Two minutes later, as we continue down the trail, we stop to glass for flat tops. I scan around, and notice Wile-coyote standing there, watching us again from the bank of the road. 231 yards ranged him, sat down and got a good rest, and touched off a shot at a frontal facing angle.





    The coyote went stiff legged and skidded down the bank. This excited my son! he now has the material for a new fur thong

    "If you ever go into the bush, there are grizzly bears lurking behind just about every bush, waiting to pounce, so you need a powerful gun, with huge bullets" - Gatehouse ~ 2004

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