How far is too far?Is it sporting to take the shot?

[branthunter]

This thread came to mind while penning a response "Ultralongranger" in the shooting and guns forum.It springs from a pet peeve of mine that I'll bet many, if not most, of you waterfowlers are guilty of, if not always, then at least from time to time, and that is the practice of shooting at birds that are way out of range. I cringe every time I walk by a guy afield who is surrounded by empty shotgun shells on the ground and has 2 birds to show for it. And please don't tell me how some folks just aren't good shots. I've watched time and again as people bang away with all 3 barrels at geese or ducks that are clearly out of range, at least for them. (I add this caveat because there are some who can hit consistently at ultralong range and know how to judge a shot that is too far, even for them, but they are few and far between in my experience). I'm not claiming to be an angel here, as obviously the range to a duck or goose is often difficult to gage and I know that I too sometimes shoot at birds that are out of range. Even frustration can lead to such a bad decision. But it must also be said that a bird that is clearly in range is not that difficult to discern. And it is the process of getting within that range, whether by virtue of placement in the environment or concealment or decoys or calling or choosing the right weather/tide or the right combination of all of these that make waterfowling the magical game it is. I have no problem with bird shooters who, for whatever reason, are just poor and simple bad shots (I was one of them once and still occasionally have that kind of day ) but constantly shooting at birds that are clearly out of range is in the same category as MR. "Ultralongranger." as far as I'm concerned. It's unsporting, unethical, and a callous disregard for the quarry. It wounds far too many and results in a spooked population of birds. If you haven't seen this phenomenon just go down to Westham Is. and watch what goes on as the snow geese flocks head for the marsh late in the day. Then spend some time on the marsh the next am. and see all the cripples. This is a difficult issue, if only because it takes a lot of shooting at birds that are for the time being on any given shooter's learning curve somewhat beyond their current competence but there are, in my view at least, obvious situations where you just don't take the shot. Let's face it, most of the birds we see each day are NOT in range. How do we get this message through to beginners and chronic offenders? How many of you would go up to a stranger offending in this regard and point out to him/her that they need to let the birds get closer? How many would do it if they were your buddy? Hopefully a Forum such as this might be a good first step.

[sfire436]

For myself, I would never shoot at anything until they are just outside or in the same yardage as my decoys. (20-35 yrd)

[branthunter]

That's a really good practical way of solving some of the problem but what about pass shooting. To my observation they and overhead shots above decoy spreads are where most of the problem occurs. Maybe all pass shooters should be required to put up a helium filled decoy at shooting range.

[Crazy_Farmer]

I have no problems telling somebody they're a skybuster if thats what they're doing. All they're doing is educating those birds to just keep flying a little bit higher each time it happens. Last year we had an early goose hunt lined up and as the geese came over the dykes the first flock was at say 40 yards, three shots, nothing fell, next flock 45 yards, again 3 shots and nothing, this happened 4 times each time the flocks got higher to about 70 yards finally. Nothing to show for it but an empty box of shells.

You'll find these problems the closer to get to bigger refuges and areas like that with lots of huntable dykes instead of hunting them out of the fields. Though in alot of cases land permission cant be obtained so whats a guy to do? Its a hard time trying to fault a guy or new person starting out for trying to get out there and just get his birds, but they should go about it the right way if its possible.

On pretty much every hunt we've had, the chances to take birds on the wing at 35-45 yards is always there whether its when they're circling or if they slide off to one side more. And we rarely ever take those shots, I could care less about banging out limits everytime we're out and wasting my shells trying to get them when I can fire off a handfull of shells into a couple of totally cupped and comiited flocks coming in at 10-20 yards. Give me one in your face 10 yard shot anyday over a box of shells shooting over 40 yards for a far away goose.

[branthunter]

"They" closed the "one mile shot" thread so I'm putting this here 'cause I think it needs to be said. I've been following up on the posts and thinking about this issue all afternoon and have come to the conclusion that, accepting all of "Ultralongranger"'s posts as true (which I have no reason to doubt), the tenor of the responses here have done him a disservice , and many have indeed probably been hypocritical if all were told.. I know people who never sight their rifles in before they go hunting each year yet don't hesitate to bang away at 200 yd. (so they say) deer, often running, with open sights to boot. I am constantly hearing about guys taking 300 and 400 yd shots each season, the unethicality of which I am sure, on the grounds proposed here, goes well beyond what he and his mates are doing. What are the chances of wounding on such shots? There is no way they can be expected to kill cleanly without wounding each and every time. Maybe someone who has practiced like an Olympian can do it, but not the average hunter. I regularly hear of or see TV shots of bowhunters putting an arrow in an animals neck or haunch to be seen waving in the wind as the unfortunate beast makes his escape. What's hunting to one is needless killing to the next. I myself am not a fan of killing the likes of bears or coyotes or cougars but for others that is where their hunting passion lies, just as mine does with elk and waterfowl (wish I could say sheep). I wouldn't shoot a goat if you put a world record in front of me, simply because I used to climb and feel a kindred spirit with the billies. But hunting ethics are a personal issue, malleable with time and experience. And the slurs made here that smack of anti-Americanism are unconscionable and embarrassing. My own post goes too far. At best, I have concluded, his sport is a different way of hunting, done at long range---and apparently done exceedingly well and with much laudable effort and devotion directed towards doing so. I wouldn't do it, but that doesn't make me a saint and him the devil,. And we should note that his thread was started in the "Guns" forum and not a hunting forum. Methinks this high horse that has been set up here runs on spindly legs. And congrats "Ultralongranger" on so doggedly sticking up for yourself in a situation where I suspect many would have just said FU and disappeared into the ether.

[Brambles]

I personally put the limit on 1779 yards

[ultralongranger]

thank you branthunter, That was very big of you, Your wisdome and experiance real show in your writing, I was getting concerned about my neighbors to the north. However its character like your i was trying to appeal too as a discussion. toddbartell is obviously a person that is set in his ways and oblivious to factfinding. as seen by his constant violations sent to my private chat because i struck a nerve saying that speer hunting in my oppinion is more unethical and with greater risk of injury and loss than what we have accomplished. In all honasty i am amazed at every kill we make it is unbelievable the consistant accuracy these guns produce and the energe upon impact does to the deer we take. the man that lives there has started us on this five years ago and is amazing in his knolage and proficiant proving of ethical long range hunting ( with proper knolage and equipment) anyway ... Thank you for being a stand-up guy and taking the time to evaluate before bashing. sincerly: Mark

[Gateholio]

Usually when a thread gets locked, it's a hint that we should probably drop the subject...

[ultralongranger]

383 yards, on blacktail buck..

I had left me LRF at home that day, and figured the shot was about 300, so I aimed right on, and saw the bullet splash beneath his legs. Doing a quick calculation, I figured him around 375, So I dialed up and aimed right on him, and nailed him. When I went back (with LRF) I found it was 383..
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300 yrds without lrf missed and shot again...ethical ?

[RMG]

For once we have someone here that is able to open there eyes and see another form of hunting, one that he may not participate in, but embraces none the less. Thank you branthunter for you well spoken words