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Thread: Up For Discussion: (Proposal) Apply 6 pt antler restriction to west Kootenay bow only

  1. #51
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    Re: Up For Discussion: (Proposal) Apply 6 pt antler restriction to west Kootenay bow

    I think if you can’t draw a bow for medical reasons, you should be allowed to use a crossbow. If you can draw a bow, then I think you shouldn’t be allowed to use a crossbow.

  2. #52
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    Re: Up For Discussion: (Proposal) Apply 6 pt antler restriction to west Kootenay bow

    Quote Originally Posted by roymil View Post
    So what % of the 30% archery harvest were 6 point bulls. It wouldnt suprise me if a large number of bulls harvested in the archery season were 6 points. A 6 point restriction in the archery season may not reduce the harvest that much. Also how many of those unsuccessful bow hunters will pick up a rifle and harvest a bull in the GOS anyhow. Also reducing the season a week after the peak rut doesnt seem like the best way to reduce the harvest , reduce the season in the rut.
    The Ministry does not collect data on the size of an animal taken in a BOS or a GOS where point restrictions are not applied.
    What they do know, is the BOS in West Kootenay results in about 18,000 hunter days. Which if it shifts to a 6pt season will result in a shift of those days afield to other MU's.

    Quote Originally Posted by roymil View Post
    Originally Posted by HappyJack
    30% of the harvest could be cut back by eliminating the archery season completely, remove any allocations from the outfitters and there would be more available for the remaining BC Resident hunters. Probably not put forward as an option though.

    Two things, first eliminating the archery season completley will just delay most of the archery 30% harvest to the GOS. Secondly I am a BC Resident who bowhunts archery seasons, so lets eliminate the GOS completley and have more available to the BC bowhunters………….now doesnt that sound reasonable ������������
    Shifting the rifle hunt, out of the rut is the most efficient method of reducing bull harvest. Though if we want to talley mortality, highways and railways account for a lot more dead elk than hunters do.
    FYI, in Region 4, 52% of hunters utilize BOS. (Bow Only Season). As a result BOS is a high value opportunity, with low harvest rates. Maintaining opportunity for 'all' hunters. Regarding the 6pt GOS, any rancher will ask you, 'why are you killing your breeding bulls?'. Doesn't matter that 50% of the bulls prominence comes from Mom. A bull must prove himself to be worthy. You aren't born a king in the wild, you are born with the potential. You aren't given the right to breed, it must be earned. The basic concept of survival of the fittest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redthies View Post
    I am quoting you (sorry), but only to agree with what you’ve said. I’ve always maintained that they should let people hunt 2 and 3 point md and let the big boys take care of the breeding. I have never understood the supposed logic behind forcing people to shoot the mature bucks.
    Ya, doesn't matter that the DNA can come from both parents, the reality, if you are a rancher, you preserve your 'proven' breeders. Not just those with the right equipment. BOS allows for harvest across the age class.

    Quote Originally Posted by KBC View Post
    How many archery kills are done with a crossbow?
    There is no data on this. I have personal observations, but nothing formal. This could change in the coming years as the crossbow continues to fall into the mid range weapon category and I'm sure Gov will start to collect weapons harvest data.

    Quote Originally Posted by hunterdon View Post
    I've never been a fan of point restrictions for 2 main reasons.

    1- It opens up the door for mistakes to happen. Yes they happen way too often. And, for various reasons. No point in listings the why's.
    2- Point restrictions target a certain age/class of animal. This puts a lot of pressure on this class. In the case of elk, 6 point or above which is nature's best breeding class. So here we upset the balance by targeting the best breeding class.

    As a result of greatly reducing the numbers of 6 pointers, over time, their genetics eventually fade from the gene pool. That leads to more and more 5 pointers to do the breeding. Many of these bulls will never develop more than 5 points because of their genetic determination. And so now, we are seeing a lot more big bulls, having only 5 points.

    That's my 2 cents worth.
    Agree, see my point above about targeting the bigger bulls all the time.
    FYI, I believe, most of the 49 illegal 5 pt harvests were in the EK.

  3. #53
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    Arrow Re: Up For Discussion: (Proposal) Apply 6 pt antler restriction to west Kootenay bow

    Quote Originally Posted by J_T View Post
    ... There is no data on this. I have personal observations, but nothing formal. This could change in the coming years as the crossbow continues to fall into the mid range weapon category and I'm sure Gov will start to collect weapons harvest data.
    I concur with everything you posted with the exception of the above.
    Crossbows do not offer any extended effective hunting ranges over modern compounds.
    That is reality.

    If the steps are taken to label crossbows as "mid range weaponry" I for one will be insisting the same hold true for anything but traditional long bow and recurve bows.

    Cheers
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  4. #54
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    Re: Up For Discussion: (Proposal) Apply 6 pt antler restriction to west Kootenay bow

    Quote Originally Posted by hunterdon View Post
    I've never been a fan of point restrictions for 2 main reasons.

    1- It opens up the door for mistakes to happen. Yes they happen way too often. And, for various reasons. No point in listings the why's.
    2- Point restrictions target a certain age/class of animal. This puts a lot of pressure on this class. In the case of elk, 6 point or above which is nature's best breeding class. So here we upset the balance by targeting the best breeding class.

    As a result of greatly reducing the numbers of 6 pointers, over time, their genetics eventually fade from the gene pool. That leads to more and more 5 pointers to do the breeding. Many of these bulls will never develop more than 5 points because of their genetic determination. And so now, we are seeing a lot more big bulls, having only 5 points.

    That's my 2 cents worth.
    Point 1 - the only other options would be LEH for any bull or 3 pt and better. This would remove a portion of the hunters from the landscape. Anything that goes to LEH isn't coming back though.
    Point 2 - If its the genes, would that mean the 6pt is destined to be a 6pt from the day it was born? If he had a chance to breed a cow when he was a 5pt, wouldn't his offspring have the chance at a 6?

    Don't pretend to know the answers, just creating conversation.

  5. #55
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    Re: Up For Discussion: (Proposal) Apply 6 pt antler restriction to west Kootenay bow

    Quote Originally Posted by IronNoggin View Post
    I concur with everything you posted with the exception of the above.
    Crossbows do not offer any extended effective hunting ranges over modern compounds.
    That is reality.

    If the steps are taken to label crossbows as "mid range weaponry" I for one will be insisting the same hold true for anything but traditional long bow and recurve bows.

    Cheers
    I will speak from personal experience on this but while you may be right-ish about distance(I still think xbows can shoot farther with more lethality) it’s a way different game.

    Compounds and trad bows are far closer than compounds and crossbows. I’m a decent shot with my compound, I practice out to 100 yards and feel I can shoot out to 60 on something living in the right circumstances. It’s taken me many hours of practice to get to this point and many many hours of tuning and getting my bow set up to be able to shoot like this.

    I have seen on several occasions in the last week of August while I am at the range making sure my stuff is dialed in just before hunting season, someone shows up with a crossbow they either just borrowed or bought. They spend an afternoon sighting it in and shooting groups as good or better than I am with my compound.

    It’s not the same game at all. If you don’t have a disability preventing you from drawing a bow and you shoot a crossbow in archery season, I think you are cheating.

  6. #56
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    Re: Up For Discussion: (Proposal) Apply 6 pt antler restriction to west Kootenay bow

    Quote Originally Posted by KBC View Post
    I will speak from personal experience on this but while you may be right-ish about distance(I still think xbows can shoot farther with more lethality) it’s a way different game.

    Compounds and trad bows are far closer than compounds and crossbows. I’m a decent shot with my compound, I practice out to 100 yards and feel I can shoot out to 60 on something living in the right circumstances. It’s taken me many hours of practice to get to this point and many many hours of tuning and getting my bow set up to be able to shoot like this.

    I have seen on several occasions in the last week of August while I am at the range making sure my stuff is dialed in just before hunting season, someone shows up with a crossbow they either just borrowed or bought. They spend an afternoon sighting it in and shooting groups as good or better than I am with my compound.

    It’s not the same game at all. If you don’t have a disability preventing you from drawing a bow and you shoot a crossbow in archery season, I think you are cheating.
    Agreed..... no disrespect to ppl like Nog who can't shoot a bow due to physical disabilities but if you're able bodied, you shouldn't be allowed to use a crossbow for a BOS...

  7. #57
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    Re: Up For Discussion: (Proposal) Apply 6 pt antler restriction to west Kootenay bow

    I’ll just add that the requirements for draw weight and arrow weight etc. are quite low. With practice, I think most guys that shoot a crossbow could easily shoot a compound that meets the performance rules.
    People with a disability should absolutely be allowed to shoot a crossbow, just like some disabled can hunt from an ATV.
    I hope this isn’t too off topic but since the archery season is being discussed, I think it fits. Just my opinion.

  8. #58
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    Re: Up For Discussion: (Proposal) Apply 6 pt antler restriction to west Kootenay bow

    Quote Originally Posted by hunterdon View Post
    I've never been a fan of point restrictions for 2 main reasons.

    1- It opens up the door for mistakes to happen. Yes they happen way too often. And, for various reasons. No point in listings the why's.
    2- Point restrictions target a certain age/class of animal. This puts a lot of pressure on this class. In the case of elk, 6 point or above which is nature's best breeding class. So here we upset the balance by targeting the best breeding class.

    As a result of greatly reducing the numbers of 6 pointers, over time, their genetics eventually fade from the gene pool. That leads to more and more 5 pointers to do the breeding. Many of these bulls will never develop more than 5 points because of their genetic determination. And so now, we are seeing a lot more big bulls, having only 5 points.

    That's my 2 cents worth.
    Some wisdom shown here!
    If we’re not supposed to eat animals, how come they’re made out of meat?

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  9. #59
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    Re: Up For Discussion: (Proposal) Apply 6 pt antler restriction to west Kootenay bow

    Quote Originally Posted by HarryToolips View Post
    Agreed..... no disrespect to ppl like Nog who can't shoot a bow due to physical disabilities but if you're able bodied, you shouldn't be allowed to use a crossbow for a BOS...
    I have a shoulder injury that makes a compound bow challenging. Not completely out of the question, but not ideal. I have taken only 1 animal with a crossbow, and none with a compound. I am a rifle hunter. Why? Because I want the best, fastest death for my animals.

    That said, I think the challenge in both types of bows is the necessity to be within 40-50 yards for a fairly certain shot. I know some guys are comfortable with longer shots. My point is, compound or cross, the close distance required is the same. I don’t see a need to differentiate between the two.
    If we’re not supposed to eat animals, how come they’re made out of meat?

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  10. #60
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    Re: Up For Discussion: (Proposal) Apply 6 pt antler restriction to west Kootenay bow

    Quote Originally Posted by IronNoggin View Post
    I concur with everything you posted with the exception of the above.
    Crossbows do not offer any extended effective hunting ranges over modern compounds.
    That is reality.

    If the steps are taken to label crossbows as "mid range weaponry" I for one will be insisting the same hold true for anything but traditional long bow and recurve bows.

    Cheers
    I want to follow up on this. Not to take the thread in a different direction from the proposed regulation discussion, but to provide a bit more clarity on this.

    For clarity, in R4 West Kootenay, the most effective method of 'managing elk, and ensuring healthy populations', is NOT implementing further restrictions on BOS.

    I think at the end of the day, there are far to many, who do not fully understand various weapon choices. Each hunter is left to their own ethic when they are afield.

    What we must do, is develop more awareness about weapons. I see any number of times, when we are discussing LEH vs BOS, there is always (from within the hunting community) the comment we must deal with, "if you take the crossbow out, we're fine with..... that".
    It isn't the weapon, it's the personal assurance, that an ethical, experienced hunter brings to the hunt. It's easier to make a poor shot with Trad gear at 20 yards than with a crossbow. So what is the criteria?

    We would like to build up the IBEP here in BC to provide additional assurance that hunters, who choose archery tackle, are undertaking that activity as a bowhunter should.... with skill, experience and knowledge.

    Bowhunting IS different than rifle hunting. That's just how it is. 40 - 50 yard shots, questionable. Not on an ethical basis, on an efficiency basis. Wound loss. I've taken a lot of animals with my bow, and every one gives me new understanding about effective range.
    Tracking, is a critical component of bowhunting. A person with experience tracking, knowing what to expect from the shot taken, the mannerisms of a wounded animal, all contribute to the recovery of that animal.

    In terms of rifle, dropping an animal efficiently, there is something more to be realized about the effectiveness and humane way in which animals succumb to a well placed arrow.

    I enjoy/love hunting. Have no issue with rifle, crossbow etc. I enjoy the people I hunt with. Their weapon of choice, is their own.

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