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Thread: Crown Land Given To Now Be FN Land

  1. #191
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    Re: Crown Land Given To Now Be FN Land

    If ya'll quit being such assholes you might find the FN support the outdoor lifestyle you value more than alot of the non indigenous people who are currently influencing Wildlife management.

  2. #192
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    Re: Crown Land Given To Now Be FN Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Hadda View Post
    If ya'll quit being such assholes you might find the FN support the outdoor lifestyle you value more than alot of the non indigenous people who are currently influencing Wildlife management.
    Yea Right ! Keepers of the Land BUT you are right about there being LOT of asshole whities against Hunting ! RJ
    INDIGENOUS JIM - Born and Raised in British Columbia !

    Member : CCFR & BCWF








  3. #193
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    Re: Crown Land Given To Now Be FN Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Hadda View Post
    If ya'll quit being such assholes you might find the FN support the outdoor lifestyle you value more than alot of the non indigenous people who are currently influencing Wildlife management.
    I tend to agree , but it remains to be seen how things play out. both sides have a lot of work to do to fight old stereotypes.
    Last edited by adriaticum; 04-28-2021 at 09:22 AM.
    1. Human over population
    2. Government burden and overreach

  4. #194
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    Re: Crown Land Given To Now Be FN Land

    Quote Originally Posted by wildcatter View Post
    Rob, the British Crown is as relevant as I am being the Pope, the whole system is crooked and badly needs an overhaul.
    Is it racist to call an indian an indian?
    I wish my property was stolen land, instead of me paying big bucks for it.
    I also know that BC is in for a shock and I hope it's gonna be such a huge shock that it will eventually lead to big changes.
    And being racist? - you got to be kidding.
    One member here said this: "the school putting my 4 year old in a small storage room during Cree class because she's white"
    Did you read the post "Only white people can be racist"?
    Anything we say these days is racist, so I'm not gonna pretend and pussyfoot around these issues.
    Eventually you have to pick a side!
    Like I said before, I understand that the state of the world frustrates you. That's no reason to shoot yourself in the foot, and it's certainly no reason to shoot other hunters and anglers in our feet.

    You can *pretend* that the Crown is irrelevant to you. Since it's tax time why not start with sending JT a letter saying "Hey, the Crown is irrelevant to me and needs a big overhaul so I'm not paying taxes anymore"; or tell the CO "That Crown stuff is bs. I don't buy it. So, no, I don't have a hunting license". All legal authority in this province, and Canada, ultimately resides in the Crown.

    You can call it the "British" crown if you like, but understand: Queen Elizabeth II is the Queen of *Canada* and she is the head of state. You don't need to like it. Your opinion isn't required. If Bruce Jenner can win gold in the decathlon and then later become Caitlyn Jenner *and* run for governor of California there's no reason you can't believe the crown isn't relevant to you. Fill your boots.

    However....if you want to know why Indigenous title is a real thing you need to understand that *the people who make the rules* believe that the Crown is very relevant. They use a concept called "the honour of the Crown", and that makes the British Crown of 1763 absolutely relevant to anyone who wants access to the land, animals or fish in BC. That's just a fact. Neither you nor I have to like it, but we'd have to be idiots to ignore it (and again, its a free world and if someone wants to be an idiot, more power to them).

    It's not always racist to call an Indian an Indian. It's a legal term, and some people identify as Indians. Sometimes it is racist. We both know that. Let's stop trying to pretend that we still need to figure it out.

    I'm not saying you are a racist. Maybe you are, maybe you aren't. I don't know, and besides, that's kind of a question that you should be answering yourself.

    But, there's no question that linking the existence of a fact that you don't like and don't want to accept (Indigenous title) with the phrase "drunken Indians smoking a peace pipe around a fire" is not only a racist thing to say, it's also clearly illogical.

    Let me walk you through it:

    1) you're using negative language based on stereotypes and you're targeting a group of people based on their immutable characteristics, in this case, race. That's pretty much the definition of a racist comment. I'm not going out on a limb to observe the a lot of people would consider that racist. Maybe you think it's worth running the risk that someone calls *you* a racist, but you understand how the world works, and since you're running that risk on a hunting forum it's not a stretch to observe that there are people in the world who will paint all of us on this forum with the same brush;

    2) it's an illogical statement. Canadian governments and the Canadian legal system, going back before the creation of Canada into the pre-cursor British system, recognized and defined Indigenous title. You can't blame First Nations for that. Doing that is illogical;

    3) when you go out of your way to make an illogical statement that contains racist stereotypes....sometimes people will call you a racist.

    Again, you can decide if you are one or not. I don't care. But stop saying racist things that give anti-hunters ammo. It' ain't helping.

    It's also going to be offensive to many, many people who non-Indigenous hunters and anglers have much in common with, and who are doing many things that non-Indigenous hunters and anglers want done. Why would you go out of your way to offend them?

    As for stolen land, again, there is a legal argument that your property *is* stolen land. You can pretend that argument doesn't exist, and you can pretend it isn't relevant to you. Still, all our lives we've watched First Nations fight, through the Canadian legal system, and they've been fighting largely over....land. First Nations aren't arguing that the land was purchased, fair and square. They're arguing that it was stolen. They've chalked up some impressive wins.

    Did I read the post "Only white people can be racist"? Seriously? You're asking *me* that question? What in our history together leads you to believe that I don't know that whole paradigm, including the writings of the people who developed the paradigm, backwards and forwards? I could explain it to you until your eyes glazed over and you cried for mercy. I'm not ignorant of what's going on in today's world. I'm trying to get you to see it and, more importantly, accept it and react to it effectively. There is no questions that racists exist, but there's also no question that the term "racist" has been more effectively weaponized than "trophy hunter". Don't give your opponents ammunition.

    I have picked a side. I'm on the side of the environment, the fish, the animals, and hunters and anglers. I want funding for conservation, and science applied to wildlife management, and I want access to the land and water base. I'm really f'ing clear on that and I'm telling you to stop making the accomplishment of those goals harder.

    What side are you on and what are you trying to do?

    Reverse more than century of Indigenous legal accomplishments *under Canadian law*?
    Overhaul the country's political system?
    Change the popular cultural values surrounding racism?

    Fly at 'er. Good luck. I don't think you're going to be successful, but I admire the confidence. Once you've accomplished that come back and help us hunters and anglers come to grips with and react effectively to the challenges we face as hunters and anglers. We need all hands on deck.
    Rob Chipman
    "The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders" - Ed Abbey

  5. #195
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    Re: Crown Land Given To Now Be FN Land

    I wasn't always racist, the system made me and the injustice that most people just accept doesn't help.
    "Did I read the post "Only white people can be racist"? Seriously? You're asking *me* that question?"
    Yes I am asking you the question. I guess you don't find anything wrong with reverse racism.
    Just think about if somebody tried to publish something like that about black, or any other people.

    However, we look at things differently, I tend to question things I don't like.
    So you go ahead and belive there is nothing can be done about the land deals (not in our favor anyway)
    I would like to think someday the wish of the majority will be heard and perhaps the laws will be applied equally for everybody.
    Mind you probably not going to happen in my lifetime.
    Let me be clear, I never had the intention to hurt anybody, but sure as hell I have every intention to defend myself and my property.
    Last edited by wildcatter; 04-28-2021 at 10:46 PM.
    WLM
    I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it. - Clint Eastwood
    Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth –Sherlock Holmes
    "Lots of critters to still shoot. And there'll be no quitters until we bag some critters" - 180grainer

  6. #196
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    Re: Crown Land Given To Now Be FN Land

    Wildcatter:

    I think you're still a bit confused.

    I'm not expressing any of my political or social views. I'm just telling you what the state of the world is. I understand that you are not happy with a lot of things in the word, and that you're frustrated by them.

    We live in a hyper-partisan world. As you say "Anything we say these days is racist" - it certainly can seem that way. Going further, just about anything you say can be either offensive to someone or misrepresented by them. We all recognize that.

    Here's where you're going
    wrong. When I explain to you where Indigenous rights and title come from, or that the honour of the Crown is an important concept, or that crown land and fee simple isn't as solid an idea as we used to think, you seem to assume that I like it.

    You're making a simple, but significant mistake. You're confusing data with an opinion.

    I'm not sure we look at anything significant differently. I understand the concepts that only white people can be racist, or that racism is about a power structure, or that there can't be reverse racism.


    "Understand" doesn't mean "don't find anything wrong with".

    You don't have to pussyfoot around. You're making provocative statements that are at times very racist, and now you're even admitting that you are a racist. The thing is, you're not attaching your name to those statements. You're staying anonymous. That's fine, and you're free to do it, but its about as stunning and brave as Meryl Streep when she criticizes Trump at the Oscars.

    I use my real name and I'm connected to the BCWF. It can't be surprise to you that I self-censor as a result. I don't share many of my political or social beliefs in public, especially when they can be screenshot, misquoted and used as ammunition by people who want to demonize hunters and anglers.

    Those people exist. You and I both know that.


    The world is far from perfect. A lot of things that happen in it upset a lot of people. You aren't unique in being pissed at some things.

    But I'm asking a very simple thing: regardless of how frustrated you are with the state of the world, be smart about it. Don't give anti-hunters ammunition to use against the rest of us because you're upset. Suck it up.

    Being a racist is not a good look, regardless of who and what injustice got you there. You should probably think it through. Indigenous people didn't create the Canadian legal concept of Indigenous title or rights. Your elected officials and their predecessors did. Once you realize that you might be able to see that attacking Indigenous people for something that they didn't do is illogical and does not help anyone who wants to maintain our practice of hunting and fishing in BC.

    Hunters and anglers have a lot in common with Indigenous people, and given that Indigenous people throw a lot of weight around we're going to have to collaborate with them. Want predator control? Make friends with an Indian.

    I know you say you wish something will happen, and that you don't think it will happen in your lifetime. On that we do see the world differently. I don't have a lot of time left, but I'm not wishing for jackshit. I'm working to make something happen. If you can't help me, stop making my job tougher.

    Fair deal?


    Rob Chipman
    "The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders" - Ed Abbey

  7. #197
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    Re: Crown Land Given To Now Be FN Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Chipman View Post
    Wildcatter:

    I think you're still a bit confused.

    I'm not expressing any of my political or social views. I'm just telling you what the state of the world is. I understand that you are not happy with a lot of things in the word, and that you're frustrated by them.

    We live in a hyper-partisan world. As you say "Anything we say these days is racist" - it certainly can seem that way. Going further, just about anything you say can be either offensive to someone or misrepresented by them. We all recognize that.

    Here's where you're going
    wrong. When I explain to you where Indigenous rights and title come from, or that the honour of the Crown is an important concept, or that crown land and fee simple isn't as solid an idea as we used to think, you seem to assume that I like it.

    You're making a simple, but significant mistake. You're confusing data with an opinion.

    I'm not sure we look at anything significant differently. I understand the concepts that only white people can be racist, or that racism is about a power structure, or that there can't be reverse racism.


    "Understand" doesn't mean "don't find anything wrong with".

    You don't have to pussyfoot around. You're making provocative statements that are at times very racist, and now you're even admitting that you are a racist. The thing is, you're not attaching your name to those statements. You're staying anonymous. That's fine, and you're free to do it, but its about as stunning and brave as Meryl Streep when she criticizes Trump at the Oscars.

    I use my real name and I'm connected to the BCWF. It can't be surprise to you that I self-censor as a result. I don't share many of my political or social beliefs in public, especially when they can be screenshot, misquoted and used as ammunition by people who want to demonize hunters and anglers.

    Those people exist. You and I both know that.


    The world is far from perfect. A lot of things that happen in it upset a lot of people. You aren't unique in being pissed at some things.

    But I'm asking a very simple thing: regardless of how frustrated you are with the state of the world, be smart about it. Don't give anti-hunters ammunition to use against the rest of us because you're upset. Suck it up.

    Being a racist is not a good look, regardless of who and what injustice got you there. You should probably think it through. Indigenous people didn't create the Canadian legal concept of Indigenous title or rights. Your elected officials and their predecessors did. Once you realize that you might be able to see that attacking Indigenous people for something that they didn't do is illogical and does not help anyone who wants to maintain our practice of hunting and fishing in BC.

    Hunters and anglers have a lot in common with Indigenous people, and given that Indigenous people throw a lot of weight around we're going to have to collaborate with them. Want predator control? Make friends with an Indian.

    I know you say you wish something will happen, and that you don't think it will happen in your lifetime. On that we do see the world differently. I don't have a lot of time left, but I'm not wishing for jackshit. I'm working to make something happen. If you can't help me, stop making my job tougher.

    Fair deal?


    Very well said.

  8. #198
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    Re: Crown Land Given To Now Be FN Land

    Understand what you are saying about anti hunters, you can suck it up, but I can't.
    Do you find anything wrong with giving natives ALL of BC because of the mistreatments by the early settlers?
    It is very unfortunate what happened, but unfortunately we can't change that.

    There are countless other people around the world who have been conquered, mistreated or pushed
    aside throughout history, yet don't see anything like this going on, at least not on this scale.

    So to remedy the problem we will let them claim the land for themselves and when they have all of it you hope they
    will be satisfied and relationship between us and them will be normalized.
    I somehow can't see it that way, because that will give them even more ammo, so to speak, and they will be very hostile
    at every opportunity they get and guess what? - the government will not be on our side.
    I hope I am wrong on this, but I can see it becoming the norm.

    You think hunting for us will be ok with the natives owning most of the land, they will probably let us hunt
    whenever they feel like for a fee, but it can change anytime, anywhere.
    Let's say a hunter plans his/her hunting trip, arrange for holidays, make preparations, as most people have to
    and when get to the destination they say we are not allowing to you hunt here, go home.
    Subject to change without notice applies.

    Since you are in the real estate business let me ask you this:
    Do you ever tell your clienst they are buying (your words) "stolen land"?
    And if not, how can you make a sale in good conscience?
    WLM
    I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it. - Clint Eastwood
    Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth –Sherlock Holmes
    "Lots of critters to still shoot. And there'll be no quitters until we bag some critters" - 180grainer

  9. #199
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    Re: Crown Land Given To Now Be FN Land

    Wildcatter:


    Remember when I wrote: "I don't share many of my political or social beliefs in public, especially when they can be screenshot, misquoted and used as ammunition by people who want to demonize hunters and anglers. "


    That said, I'm going to give you a more accurate way to look at things:

    Indigenous people aren't getting land settlements "
    because of the mistreatments by the early settlers".

    They are winning their claims in Canadian courts, all the way up to the Supreme Court, or they're negotiating settlements with governments who want to avoid worse outcomes through the courts because Canadian law is largely on their side.

    Their claims are holding up in Canadian courts because of things that have been said by the governments of Canada and Canada's predecessors. I get that you don't accept this fact, and that it frustrates you, but it is, nevertheless, a fact. It's not new. It's been established in Canadian law.

    Whether you or I like this fact is irrelevant. It's been ruled on.

    Countless other peoples were conquered through history. Correct. Also irrelevant. In the cases you refer to the conquerers said "You had it, we took it, too bad".

    The British didn't do that in Canada. They said "You had it, we've ended up running it, but it's still yours until we legally alienate it from you, according to our laws" - you see the difference? We are still living the results of the Royal Proclamation off 1763. If that piece if *law* had never existed you and I wouldn't be having this talk. You really have to accept the particular fact on the ground that is the Royal Proclamation. (You don't have to like it. If it makes it easier, think of it like cancer. You don't like cancer, right? But you also don't pretend that it isn't real).

    Quote Originally Posted by wildcatter View Post
    "...when they have all of it you hope they
    will be satisfied..."


    Quote Originally Posted by wildcatter View Post
    "...they will be very hostile
    at every opportunity they get..."




    I don't hope or wish anything.

    I also don't predict the future in a way that justifies me doing nothing but complain.

    I play out the possible outcomes and I try to figure out how I can influence them so that I don't suffer through inaction.


    Quote Originally Posted by wildcatter View Post
    "You think hunting for us will be ok...."
    Obviously I don't think that. If I thought that I wouldn't be doing any of the work I'm doing now. I'd sit back and let it unfold. I'm doing exactly the opposite. I'm engaging with people and groups that are influential and powerful and who share many of my conservation concerns.



    Quote Originally Posted by wildcatter View Post
    "Let's say a hunter plans his/her hunting trip, arrange for holidays, make preparations, as most people have to
    and when get to the destination they say we are not allowing to you hunt here, go home.
    Subject to change without notice applies."


    That's what happens now, right? With the BC government running the show the regulations change without notice despite whatever plans you may have. Were you unaware of that? Have you not been paying attention? Hunting went from "essential" to "Not essential if you have to travel" to "Nah, just not essential no matter what".


    Quote Originally Posted by wildcatter View Post
    "the government will not be on our side."


    Did you say "will not"? Like "In the *future* the government will not be on our side, unlike today, where, for example, they over-fund science in wildlife management, and gladly manage
    predator imbalances, and make sure that access isn't restricted, and don't cancel any hunts for anything and do exactly what we need them to do!"

    Newsflash: the government is generally not on the side of hunter angler conservationists. They haven't been for a long, long time. Put not your faith in princes, and make sure you choose what team you're on before you grab a jersey.


    Quote Originally Posted by wildcatter View Post
    "Since you are in the real estate business let me ask you this:
    Do you ever tell your clienst they are buying (your words) "stolen land"?"
    Wildcatter - pay attention. I'm the guy in this conversation using his real name in public. I have clients who read this. Nothing I'm saying is secret and nothing I say is attached to a pretend name. None of this is new. When I sell a condo in Richmond I generally don't bore people with a long description of the Royal Proclamation, the Tsilhqot'in decision or the resulting uncertainty about fee simple title vs Indigenous title and whether the two are compatible.

    If we're buying
    property in the Interior? In any vaguely rural setting? You bet we have that discussion.

    And in case you didn't know, any informed and professional realtor in BC has taken continuing legal education on the impact of Indigenous rights and title.

    Your problem seems to be that you don't like the reality of the world, you want to deny it, and you want other people to deny reality as well. Thanks for the invite, but I ain't playing that game.


    In this world, in BC, Indigenous rights and title are a real thing, and when they are fully recognized they are going to bring big changes.

    Indigenous people have demonstrated, time and again, that they can influence the course of events significantly.

    In light of those facts I'm trying to influence outcomes to benefit hunters, anglers and all sorts of outdoor recreationalists, as well as trying to advance conservation for the sake of the plants and animals.

    What about that do you *not* like? What's your solution?



    Last edited by Rob Chipman; 04-30-2021 at 10:26 AM.
    Rob Chipman
    "The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders" - Ed Abbey

  10. #200
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    Re: Crown Land Given To Now Be FN Land

    When you said suck it up, you basically resigned to, "it's out of our hand, nothing we can do, just take it up the you know where".
    I get it about the Royal Proclamation and that the natives can and will take full advantage of it.
    If I was a lawyer, I would seriously think about getting involved.

    As for my name, why do you have a problem with me not using my real name? - most on here dont.
    If you are worried something being used against you, well you can change that.

    "Newsflash: the government is generally not on the side of hunter angler conservationists. They haven't been for a long, long time"
    Perhaps not as much as we would like, but there are certain channels open to us dealing with huntinf/fishing related issues.
    Whereas, I have a strong feeling we will not be able to deal with the natives the same way.
    Ultimately when all this settled, opportunities and resources for us non natives will be drastically reduced.
    And yes I don't like it, ask any hunter and probably get the same answer 99% of the time.
    Hunting being not essential is for travel restrictions for the duration of Covid measures, till statistics improve.
    The Ministry have been making changes to hunting regulations time to time, that is not unusual.
    Hunting as a whole would not be cancelled by the goverment, but I can see that happening if natives own all the land.
    Last edited by wildcatter; 04-30-2021 at 05:28 PM.
    WLM
    I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it. - Clint Eastwood
    Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth –Sherlock Holmes
    "Lots of critters to still shoot. And there'll be no quitters until we bag some critters" - 180grainer

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