Current definition of "any bull"

[Farquharson]

According to the 2013 regs:

1) A Bull Moose is:

-with reference to deer, moose, or elk means one bearing visible bony antlers.

2) A calf Moose is:

-a moose less than 12 months of age usually less than 5 feet at shoulder height weighing 200-300 lbs.

To me, it would seem that a male calf moose born in the spring of 2013 can qualify as both a bull and a calf according to our regs.

The reason I'm being cautious is that in my home province of Alberta, an moose makes the jump from Calf to Bull when it's antlers are 10cm across. So in Alberta, it's either one or the other, and you are issued a tag for either one or the other. Nice and clear.

I am seeking clarification because I have an LEH letter for region 3, and the authorization simply states "any bull".

So if I harvest a large yearling calf this weekend that has "visible, bony antlers", am I a poacher??

Farquharson

[swampdonkey]

According to the 2013 regs:


1) A Bull Moose is:


-with reference to deer, moose, or elk means one bearing visible bony antlers. There is your answer

[Gateholio]

I think that "Any bull" is any male other than a calf. This springs male is still a calf.

[Jelvis]

A moose calf has yet to be in it's (first winter), born in late May or early June of 2013 and will see it's first winter in December on.
If a calf has been thru a winter already it's over 12 months old is a yearling plus.
The bull moose must have antler bone showing, protruding thru the skin

[Buckmeister]

According to the 2013 regs:


The reason I'm being cautious is that in my home province of Alberta, an moose makes the jump from Calf to Bull when it's antlers are 10cm across. So in Alberta, it's either one or the other, and you are issued a tag for either one or the other. Nice and clear.

I am seeking clarification because I have an LEH letter for region 3, and the authorization simply states "any bull".



What I would like clarified is how the heck you got an L.E.H. for region 3 in BC if your a resident of Alberta???

[f350ps]

What I would like clarified is how the heck you got an L.E.H. for region 3 in BC if your a resident of Alberta???
He could have been here for years for all we know, why assume something that you have no idea what the circumstances are?? K

[Darksith]

What I would like clarified is how the heck you got an L.E.H. for region 3 in BC if your a resident of Alberta???

home province doesn't mean current residence.

If it has bone showing its a bull moose. A bull moose is simply a male

[3006pg]

if its got horns its a bull

[ru rancher]

id go with no dont bull calves at that time still have skin over there antlers? i know atleast mule deer fawns at this time do in that case it is not boney

[Sofa King]

home province doesn't mean current residence.

If it has bone showing its a bull moose. A bull moose is simply a male
this is how id define ir as well.

[Jelvis]

A bull moose is not simply a male in hunting terms. A bull calf has no antlers just bumps of hair and is less than a year old. So we can't shoot it in gos only calf leh.
That's why we have Cow/Calf .. it's a calf you and I can't tell the gender so, calf.
It could be a male moose calf or a female moose calf on LEH Cow/Calf born last June, only 4 months ago
A yearling plus bull moose has spike/fork cuz it was born 16 months ago
There is always a freak case of antler growth but in general it works like above.

[M.Dean]

if its got horns its a bull Any Bull has to have visible bone showing, a bull calf from this year may have what some call "Nubb'in's" on it's head. These as real small furry bumps on there heads, not Antlers. So, this tasty little critter's called a "Calf" I think??? But, to be positive before shooting one of these little critters, ask a CO!

[Whonnock Boy]

I had this debate with an acquaintance up moose hunting. He had mentioned how he interprets the regs to say "any bull" is just that, if it has man parts, it is legal, and "Nubbins" identify it as a bull. I disagreed. I ended up calling the CO on it. He confirmed what I believed, and I passed on the info to the fellow hunter. The guy still didn't buy it.

[Sofa King]

I had this debate with an acquaintance up moose hunting. He had mentioned how he interprets the regs to say "any bull" is just that, if it has man parts, it is legal, and "Nubbins" identify it as a bull. I disagreed. I ended up calling the CO on it. He confirmed what I believed, and I passed on the info to the fellow hunter. The guy still didn't buy it.

the "nubbins" have to be a certain size to be considered antler.

[ru rancher]

no the nubbins would have to be boney to be considered a bull not have fluffy hair on them

[Whonnock Boy]

the "nubbins" have to be a certain size to be considered antler.

No, it has to have "visible bony antler". Nubbins are not that.

[Sofa King]

No, it has to have "visible bony antler". Nubbins are not that.

what about a moose in velvet?
that's not a bull?

[Ringo 7MM]

If it is 1 inch or longer in B.C. it is classed as an antlered animal!

[ru rancher]

im still saying no thats a good point but it is a calf not a bull id never take the chance and shoot it

[Ringo 7MM]

and is that not exactly what I said?

NO, that is exactly what you did not say, I stated a fact.

[Buckmeister]

He could have been here for years for all we know, why assume something that you have no idea what the circumstances are?? K

home province doesn't mean current residence.

If it has bone showing its a bull moose. A bull moose is simply a male

If he is a "resident" of BC by the definition in the LEH regs, then we don't have a problem here. But that is why I ask the question, to understand the circumstances. A "current" BC residence doesn't mean jack if he doesn't spend the needed amount of time in BC for it to qualify as his PRIMARY residence. Like I said earlier, just want some clarification on the situation, when he called Alberta his "home province" it made me wonder what he meant. Maybe he meant Alberta is his province of origin, but maybe, thats not what he meant.

[Sofa King]

NO, that is exactly what you did not say, I stated a fact.

the "nubbins" have to be a certain size to be considered antler.

that's what I said.
my exact words.
you're on a real roll.
how about losing the insults and just posting.

[Sofa King]

If he is a "resident" of BC by the definition in the LEH regs, then we don't have a problem here. But that is why I ask the question, to understand the circumstances. A "current" BC residence doesn't mean jack if he doesn't spend the needed amount of time in BC for it to qualify as his PRIMARY residence. Like I said earlier, just want some clarification on the situation, when he called Alberta his "home province" it made me wonder what he meant. Maybe he meant Alberta is his province of origin, but maybe, thats not what he meant.

half of Kelowna's vehicles are registered in alberta.
can't someone hold dual residency?
I always wondered how this works.
and what about if your main "home" is in say, alberta or b.c., but you work in the other province, say, in a camp, like in ft. mcmurray or something.
technically, you are spending the large majority residing in that other province, but you are still the resident of the other.
what "actually" defines being a resident?
is it having a mailing address?

[Whonnock Boy]

Nubbins are nubbins, antlers are antlers. A nubbin cannot be an antler, and an antler cannot be a nubbin. So, certain sized nubbins cannot be considered antler. :wink:

[Whonnock Boy]

6 months of the year, and a residency considers you a resident.

[Ringo 7MM]

the "nubbins" have to be a certain size to be considered antler.

that's what I said.
my exact words.
you're on a real roll.
how about losing the insults and just posting.

The Nubbins have to be 1 INCH or longer to be considered an antlered animal, not a certain size, BOZO.

[f350ps]

I think you two morons should get a room and deal with yer differences and leave us out of it!!! Get lost and leave adults to discuss this please! K

[Sleep Robber]

^^^ Thank you, I was going to add something to that effect myself, those two need some time off IMO. This isn't high school name calling hour you two, grow the #$%^ up will ya's.

Anyways,

IMHO, anyone shooting a calf moose with nubbins when hunting an "any bull" LEH is just looking for trouble and bound to find it too. A calf is a calf, and a bull is a bull, pretty simple really, and if you all think different then your pretty damn desperate hunters {who ever you are out there}.


My take anyway.

[moosinaround]

The Nubbins have to be 1 INCH or longer to be considered an antlered animal, not a certain size, BOZO.
"antlerless animal" means a member of the deer family bearing no visible bony antlers and, for the purposes of this definition, the small skin or hair covered protuberances on male fawns and calves are not antlers;
"tine" or "point" means the branch of an antler which is longer than its breadth and is at least 2.5 cm (1 inch) in length, and for the purpose of determining the length of a tine(a) the breadth of the tine is measured (if extending from a palmation of an antler, then in the plane of the palm) at a location at least 2.5 cm (1 inch) from the tip of the tine, and
(b) the length of the tine is measured from its tip end, following the midline of the profile of the tine, and following the natural curvature of the tine, to the midpoint of the straight line along which the breadth is measured;
"calf" in reference to a moose, elk or caribou means one that is less than 12 months of age;

There you BOZO these are out of the act!!Interprete away!! Meat heads!! Moosin

[Jelvis]

we gotta some head butting goin on.

[Buckmeister]

The front page of this years LEH regs reads:

A resident is:

1) a person who is a Canadian citizen or a permanent resident of Canada, whose only or primary residence is in British Columbia, and has been physically present in British Columbia for the greater portion of each of 6 calender months out of the 12 calendar months immediately preceding the date of making an application under the Wildlife Act or doing another thing relevant to the operation of the Wildlife Act, or

2) a person who is not a Canadian citizen or a permanent resident of Canada, but whose only or primary residence is in British Columbia, and has been physically present in British Columbia for the greater portion of each of the 12 calendar months immediately preceding the date of making an application under the Wildlife Act or doing another thing relevant to the operation of the Wildlife Act.

[Ringo 7MM]

You morons all got your head up your ass!

[burger]

IBTL. Someones getting banned I can feel it....And I bet there a BOZO.

HAHA

[Ringo 7MM]

IBTL. Someones getting banned I can feel it....And I bet there a BOZO.

HAHA

what was that BOZO!

[burger]

what was that BOZO!

Actually I have one more. Do you flex in front of a mirror after your post and think to yourself man I got them with my nasty demeanor. There so intimidated by me!!!


HAHAHA

Get it in now cuz....BYE BYE!!!

[burger]

Sorry Mods Too easy!!!

[j270wsm]

RINGO 7mm....the regs say nothing about length when determining what is an antler. All it says is it has to be a bony projection. When determining what is a tine, length is used and yes 1" is the minimum to be classified as a tine.

[Farquharson]

Thank you everyone for the responses.

It sounds to me like the answer is "bony". If they're bony, they're antlers and the animal is a bull.

There is no real ambiguity because it is unlikely or impossible for a moose born this spring (4 or 5 months old) to have developed bony antlers -- only hair-covered nubs or bumps. (Please correct me anyone if I am wrong??)

Farquharson

PS To satisfy the gentleman who was concerned that an Albertan might be holding a BC LEH letter, I was born and raised in Alberta and will always consider that to be "back home".

I should not have called it my "home province" as I have lived in the lower mainland continuously (except 2 weeks' vacation/year) for a decade. I just haven't made peace yet with the idea that I'm not really an Albertan anymore.

If it makes you feel better, a $20 whitetail tag costs me $250 when I go back in the fall to visit and there are lots of draws there that I'm not eligible for. BC is the only province that does *not* treat me as an alien, so I guess I'm from here now.

[swampdonkey]

Thank you everyone for the responses.

It sounds to me like the answer is "bony". If they're bony, they're antlers and the animal is a bull.

There is no real ambiguity because it is unlikely or impossible for a moose born this spring (4 or 5 months old) to have developed bony antlers -- only hair-covered nubs or bumps. (Please correct me anyone if I am wrong??)

Farquharson

PS To satisfy the gentleman who was concerned that an Albertan might be holding a BC LEH letter, I was born and raised in Alberta and will always consider that to be "back home".

I should not have called it my "home province" as I have lived in the lower mainland continuously (except 2 weeks' vacation/year) for a decade. I just haven't made peace yet with the idea that I'm not really an Albertan anymore.

If it makes you feel better, a $20 whitetail tag costs me $250 when I go back in the fall to visit and there are lots of draws there that I'm not eligible for. BC is the only province that does *not* treat me as an alien, so I guess I'm from here now.
What part of region 3 did you get your draw

[Farquharson]

What part of region 3 did you get your drawA part with very good odds because there's no vehicle access, if that narrows it down.

I'm not lucky, just willing to walk.

[limit time]

Nubbins are nubbins, antlers are antlers. A nubbin cannot be an antler, and an antler cannot be a nubbin. So, certain sized nubbins cannot be considered antler. :wink:
Is a " nubbin" the same as button? Are these legal terms...?

[swampdonkey]

I didn't say you where lucky . I was gonna try and offer some assitance if I new the area . Anyways congrats on your draw.

[Steeleco]

Now back to the regularly scheduled thread.

[MB_Boy]

Thank you everyone for the responses.

It sounds to me like the answer is "bony". If they're bony, they're antlers and the animal is a bull.

There is no real ambiguity because it is unlikely or impossible for a moose born this spring (4 or 5 months old) to have developed bony antlers -- only hair-covered nubs or bumps. (Please correct me anyone if I am wrong??)

Farquharson



There is no ambiguity as it is an animal of less than 12 months of age....read moosin's info again below. As a general rule you aren't going to find any notable "antler growth" on a male calf at 4-5 months of age. Say no to nubs and yes to a spike minimum...the you have no worries about tickets, fines or forfeiting hunting gear.:wink:




"antlerless animal" means a member of the deer family bearing no visible bony antlers and, for the purposes of this definition, the small skin or hair covered protuberances on male fawns and calves are not antlers;
"tine" or "point" means the branch of an antler which is longer than its breadth and is at least 2.5 cm (1 inch) in length, and for the purpose of determining the length of a tine(a) the breadth of the tine is measured (if extending from a palmation of an antler, then in the plane of the palm) at a location at least 2.5 cm (1 inch) from the tip of the tine, and
(b) the length of the tine is measured from its tip end, following the midline of the profile of the tine, and following the natural curvature of the tine, to the midpoint of the straight line along which the breadth is measured;
"calf" in reference to a moose, elk or caribou means one that is less than 12 months of age;

[Rackem]

The Nubbins have to be 1 INCH or longer to be considered an antlered animal, not a certain size, BOZO.

Glad to see he is banned. Thank you.

[Ken M]

Reading this thread, it sounds to me like the rut started early this year.... Thanks for the morning entertainment guys:):)

[Whonnock Boy]

Is a " nubbin" the same as button? Are these legal terms...?

LOL.... Yeah, nubbin, button, same thing. Legal term? I don't think so. :-D

[Buckmeister]

PS To satisfy the gentleman who was concerned that an Albertan might be holding a BC LEH letter, I was born and raised in Alberta and will always consider that to be "back home".

I should not have called it my "home province" as I have lived in the lower mainland continuously (except 2 weeks' vacation/year) for a decade. I just haven't made peace yet with the idea that I'm not really an Albertan anymore.

If it makes you feel better, a $20 whitetail tag costs me $250 when I go back in the fall to visit and there are lots of draws there that I'm not eligible for. BC is the only province that does *not* treat me as an alien, so I guess I'm from here now.

Thanks for the clarification. I wish you good luck on your hunt, my son had a bull draw for region 3 last year and he cashed in on a nice 3x3. Have fun out there.

[adriaticum]

Definitions and interpretation

1 (1) In this regulation:
"Act" means the Wildlife Act;
"antlerless animal" means a member of the deer family bearing no visible bony antlers and, for the purposes of this definition, the small skin or hair covered protuberances on male fawns and calves are not antlers;
"bait" means any thing, including meat, cereal, cultivated crops, a restrained animal or any manufactured product or material, that may attract wildlife, but does not include a decoy;
"bearded turkey" means a turkey with a tuft of hair-like feathers that grow larger with age, and are found on the chest of the turkey;
"brow tine" means the first lateral branch, of an antler of deer, elk, moose or caribou, that projects forward and occurs in the lower one third of the antler;
"buck" or "bull" with reference to deer, moose or elk means one bearing visible bony antlers, but does not include a calf;
"buck" or "bull" with reference to caribou means a male bearing visible bony antlers, but does not include a calf;

"calf" in reference to a moose, elk or caribou means one that is less than 12 months of age;

[dana]

A part with very good odds because there's no vehicle access, if that narrows it down.

I'm not lucky, just willing to walk.

Good luck with that tag. Easiest draw to pull, one of the hardest to see success in. Which season did you get?

[cassiarkid]

Just a few comments about residency. If you have a BC Card Card and a BC Drivers License, you are considered a BC resident. If you own property or a house in BC, that does not mean you are a BC resident. I run into that problem all the time when selling licenses. People think that they are entitled to hunt and fish as BC residents if they own property here... not the case. On the other hand, a lot of people from BC move to Alberta to work, come back in Sept and show me their BC Hunter # Card and expect a license. If they produce an Alberta Drivers License as proof of identity, then they are no longer a resident of BC. People just want to have the best of both worlds, gotta choose, cheap insurance and big oil money or the great hunting and fishing in BC. One or the other.

[Farquharson]

Not sure whether that was directed at me or just in general.

For the record, in case I was ambiguous and still sound to some like I have illegally received a BC LEH, I have had 100% BC residency for >10 years.

I hunt Whitetail in AB for a week in the fall and spend 3 days there at Christmas and that's all the time I spend outside of this province per year.

Typing it out makes me think I should get out more, actually...

[bandit]

Just a few comments about residency. If you have a BC Card Card and a BC Drivers License, you are considered a BC resident. If you own property or a house in BC, that does not mean you are a BC resident. I run into that problem all the time when selling licenses.

Not the case at all. For a start there are different residency rules for non-citizens or landed immigrants. My buddy who just moved here from Scotland owns property, has a BC drivers license and a BC care card but can't hunt for another 9 months. There was a big court case a couple of years back when an Australian who lived here for more than 6 but less than 12 months got charged with poaching as he was not deemed a resident.

I would respectfully suggest you exercise more caution when selling licenses.

[cassiarkid]

As far as hunting licenses are concerned, if a person comes in with a valid hunters number card (not last years hunting license), a valid BC drivers license and a BC care card we cannot refuse to sell them a hunting license. We would have no basis to not give them a license. A person has to be deemed a resident of BC if they have been given a BC Card Card and they must have been residing in BC for a least 12 months prior to taking their CORE. So, I stand by my statement that if they come in with those documents, we cannot refuse them their hunting license. If someone has made a mistake and not done their due diligence on residency before handing out a Care Card or Hunters number, that is out of my hands. You are correct on the definition of residency for non-Canadians, but if they come in with a Hunters number Card, they have already past that waiting period. In my previous statement, I did not mention the hunters #, as I thought it was a given.

Cheers

Cheers

[bandit]

I guess at the end of the day it is the hunters responsibility to ensure they meet and maintain the residency requirements. The hunter card says if you cease to be a bc resident you must send the card back to Victoria. I wonder what penalties if any they would give you for selling to someone who is trying to cheat the system.

But I dunno why they ask you to check for a bc care card when it doesn't prove anything. You can get one after being in bc for 2 months plus 1 day. And you don't have to give the card back if you cease being a resident (although presumably your coverage would lapse if you needed medical treatment)

www.health.gov.bc.ca/msp/infoben/eligible.html#enroll

And as for immigrants vs citizens I would say its up to service bc to check that before issuing the hunter number. You don't need to be a resident to pass CORE or get the BCWF certificate. And for what it's worth when I got my hunter number they only asked for 6 months proof of residence even though my accent would suggest I'm definitely not canadian!! So it is easily possible to get a hunter # without passing the residency requirement.

Anyway it's kind of a moot point. The CO asking you to prove residency duration (and immigration status) is all that counts.

[adriaticum]

Does bull sheit meet the current definition of "any bull"?

I think Jelvis drew that LEH . :mrgreen:

[Taylor69]

Bony antlers is a bull. Calf bulls have hide covering protuberances! They are not antlers!

[Sofa King]

Bony antlers is a bull. Calf bulls have hide covering protuberances! They are not antlers!

then a moose in velvet isn't a "bull"?

[Jelvis]

velvet isn't hide dooley nice try but "No Seeegarrr." You failed in this one.

[Sofa King]

velvet isn't hide dooley nice try but "No Seeegarrr." You failed in this one.

does it mention "hide" in the regs?
he was just saying that a bull means bony antlers.
technically, that's not accurate.

[Jelvis]

Velvet is on antlers
The lil hairy tuffs on a calf bull moose isn't velvet. Jus sayin my body is swayin
Jelly -- Black Velvet .. Elvis Aaron Presley .. Can he Chest Knee

[1899]

I called Victoria on this a few years ago when this debate came up on HBC. After lengthy discussions the CO acknowledged the ambiguity of the regs as they were at that time. By the next year the definitions changed. A spike-fork bull means a bull having no more than two tines on one antler. No more than two tine would include one tine or spike and this restriction is to open harvest on young, immature bulls only. The part they added was - "Does not include a calf". Consider the other definitions. A "calf" is a moose that is less than 12 months old. An antlered animal is a member of the deer family over one year of age bearing visible boney antlers. "Deer family" - means moose, caribou, deer and elk.

Put it all together and you are looking for trouble if you shoot a calf in bull season.

[Sofa King]

I agree, but "bony" shouldn't be the definition.
all they need to say is that the antler HAS to be a certain length to be legal.
that's all, pretty simple.

[1899]

I didn't say you where lucky . I was gonna try and offer some assitance if I new the area . Anyways congrats on your draw.

No good deed goes unpunished.

[Taylor69]

In the regs a calf moose is a moose under 12 months of age. So in the field a calf is a calf. There is no sex to it. When cleaning you can see if it's male or female.

My biggest problem is with the calf description......a calf is between 200-300lbs??????
the trips I have been on have been successful in the calf season many many times. The biggest calf we got was, I think, was 215 ish. 300 lbs is last years calf, 1 1/2 years old!!
i remember having a heated discussion with a CO, he was adamant that all calf moose were under 200 lbs. if it was more, then it was from last year. He was very serious!
calves are always around 200 somewhere.
immatures bulls are usually just over 300 lb, about 320-340.
so a 300 lbs "calf" is last years calf.
these numbers are on the hook at the butcher of course.

[Jelvis]

It's live weight lol, when you see it alive in the bush it's 250.
You can't get the butcher to weigh it when it's alive lol Hahaha
Jel .. oh boy Houston!
Live weight is when it's alive.

[Taylor69]

I wish it only lost 50 lbs from live weight yo the butcher! Lol. That's the dream!

[Ringo 7MM]

Glad to see he is banned. Thank you.

Hey Rackem I'm BACK! HA HA HA , I see your just as bright, as some of the people on here, and have a nice day.

[browningboy]

I don't get it, what is a bull again?... My helmet is fitting too tight?..

[burger]

Hey Rackem I'm BACK! HA HA HA , I see your just as bright, as some of the people on here, and have a nice day.


Not for long!! HA HA HA...This time it will be permanent

[browningboy]

Poor ringo like a pack of hienas on here! Lol

[f350ps]

Oh man, Duallie's got me all messed up now!!! Immy's open on Tuesday and now I'm all screwed up, so a Bull is the one with it's bone showing or is it the one with the fuzzy ears? Help me out here! :) K

[Jelvis]

You shoot fuzzy ears your goin downtown.
No moose wearing earphones or earmuffs allowed in Spikel Forkage.
I'll get gringo to take yah in lol.
Jelly Gringo lol

[Ringo 7MM]

It is obvious that people on this site do not know how to read the hunting regulations, stupid is what stupid can't do!

[f350ps]

It is obvious that people on this site do not know how to read the hunting regulations, stupid is what stupid can't do!
Do these regulation books yer talking about explain whether one of them fuzzy eared Moose are legal as an Immy? K

[Jelvis]

People can read the regs or rules and still have questions about there true meaning.
Like what about in this situmickation?
It's peoples way of surviving in their own life.
The devil made me do it.
Jel .. Any reason to confuse and debate, it's been done since the beginning of time.
The devil is in the details.

[Ringo 7MM]

kdxuf'amr' gsoserf'cvthbk";x
[ew[qb0y7q3
=,gL:;g
]pr

[f350ps]

kdxuf'amr' gsoserf'cvthbk";x
[ew[qb0y7q3
=,gL:;g
]pr
Well why didn't you say that in the first place, now I get it!! K

[Jelvis]

That there is the way your brain operates when on high speed MM.
Your just hitting the keys and couldn't careless what your saying because it don't matter to you, and that's all that matters, pitter patter climb the ladder out.
Your not a poet we all know it. Your feet are short fellows. all is my humble opinion
Anyway carry on cuz it's a free world.
Jel .. Neil Young .. Livin In The Free World ..

[burger]

Antlered Animal - means a member of the
deer family over one year of age bearing visible
bony antlers

Tine or "Point" - means a branch of an
antler which is longer than its breadth and is at
least 2.5 cm in length, and for the purpose of
determining the length of a tine
(a) the breadth of the tine is measured (if
extending from a palmation of an antler, then in
the plane of the palm) at a location at least 2.5
cm from the tip of the tine, and
(b) the length of the tine is measured from its
tip end, following the midline of the profile of
the tine, and following the natural curvature
of the tine, to the midpoint of the straight line
along which the breadth is measured. (See
How to Measure a Tine diagram below

Bottom of page 5 give you a visual

[Ringo 7MM]

I'm glad you do, because this is the theory of antler evolution, in a nutshell.

[Jelvis]

It's not a tine, it's the mainbeam that comes out off the pedastil right.
another question?
It goes on and on because we all like looking in a microscope at anything.
We are never satisfied with anothers interpretation. We want to wrap our own heads around things. lol I said head.
Jel