Deer used as shooting gallery

[Rackem]

http://www.kamloopsnews.ca/article/20130930/KAMLOOPS0101/130939979/-1/kamloops/deer-used-as-shooting-gallery-court-told (http://www.kamloopsnews.ca/article/20130930/KAMLOOPS0101/130939979/-1/kamloops/deer-used-as-shooting-gallery-court-told)

These stupid a$$es! I can't believe that one wants to be in LAW ENFORCEMENT!!! I really hope that NEVER happens!!!

"September 30, 2013

By Cam Fortems
Daily News Staff Reporters

The Crown alleges Lower Mainland men on a hunting trip in the South Cariboo used a herd of deer as target practice, leaving the dead animals in the middle of a field.
A prosecutor also charged Monday in B.C. Supreme Court that a deer was shot by a teenage son of one the hunters, under his watch.
One of the deer killed was a doe, standing with a fawn.
But the defence is seeking to have the charges thrown out based on a nearly three-year delay in the case coming to trial.
Paramjit Singh Chahal, his 23-year-old son Sukhraj Singh Chahal, and Sukhvinder Singh Kalkat are together charged with 16 counts under the Wildlife Act and Firearm Act.
The Crown alleges three mule deer were shot on Nov. 12, 2010, at OK Ranch, in the South Cariboo about 50 kilometres west of Clinton.
Defence lawyer Mark Rowan argued charges should be stayed, saying an unreasonable delay in a trial is a breach of the three men's rights under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
Provincial court judge Stephen Harrison is set to rule on the application Tuesday.
Prosecutor Joel Gold outlined Crown allegations that the three hunters, along with two children aged 12 or 13, drove up and down High Bar Road in a pickup.
They stopped the truck several times, getting out to shoot and kill three deer standing among a large group browsing on the hill.
Only one of the three had a limited-entry tag to take an antlerless mule deer during that season. Gold said a deer fitting that class was taken, gutted at roadside and taken back to a hunting camp.
But conservation officers saw two more deer shot and left where they fell. One of them was shot by Kalkat's 13-year-old son, who had no hunting licence, the Crown alleges.
"Why they shoot them is speculative," Gold said. "There's a lot of deer on the hill. Perhaps they're practicing."
Conservation officers had been tipped off, Gold said. One of them secretly watched the truck using binoculars while another looked through a high-power scope at the deer that were felled.
"Leaving kills in the field is bad example-setting and mentoring of these two young hunters," Gold said. "It's very serious conduct in hunting ethics."
All three men are charged with carrying a loaded firearm, discharging a firearm across a highway, shooting in a no-shooting area, hunting wildlife out of season and failure to retrieve wildlife. Kalkat is additionally charged with hunting with a person under 19 who has no licence.
While still unproven, the charges nonetheless resulted in Kalkat, an insurance agent, being turned around at the U.S. border. He is also seeking to become president of a Rotary chapter, but the charges remain hanging over that bid.

Sukhraj Chahal, who Rowan said is seeking a career in policing or corrections, was unable to apply while the charges hung over him.

"It's the sheer length of this delay," said Rowan, noting mule deer are not endangered and adding the charges "aren't on the serious end of the Wildlife Act."
The delay was caused in part by impending heart surgery of one of the conservation officers, which resulted in an adjournment of 10 months in the first scheduled trial.
Rowan said much of the time his clients suffered while under the charges is a result of "institutional delay" — lack of court time. That delay could harm the defence case, which relies on memory, he said.
"There was a failure to prioritize. . . . I don't blame anyone in administration. It may simply be an inability to prioritize."

[Sofa King]

I saw this on the front page of the Kamloops daily today.
damn LMers, tarnishing the hunting name again.

[betteroffishing]

i for one , as a LMer , wish to wholeheartedly appologise for these three pieces of sh-t s behavior and lack of respect for your wildlife.

[betteroffishing]

tongue firmly in cheek.

what kind of a self serving mor--n thinks geographical location of a citizens address has anything to do with his / her propensity to do stupid things.

[monasheemountainman]

so many racist comments come to mind but instead ill just call them assholes with no care for Canadian law or morality....bunch of bullshit drop the hammer on them.

[Rackem]

It doesn't matter where these asshats come from, they are asshats. They did a terrible thing, and they may not end up even going to trail...that sucks.

[Whonnock Boy]

damn LMers, tarnishing the hunting name again.
Does your name start with a J and end with an eff?

[Moe.JKU]

Sounds like they will get off easy from the article. Should not be able to run for those positions they are waiting to do. Some people come to this country with no respect for the land, and then their kids learn from them sad to see.
16 counts there has to be some major punishment for that.

[Glenny]

The charges are "not on the serious end of the wildlife act? Then what is? I wonder why the delay too.

[Rob Chipman]

Apparently the charges were tossed from court due to a three year delay. Damn Interior guys, tarnishing the judging name yet again! :-)

Seriously, though, charges tossed - http://www.kamloopsnews.ca/article/20131001/KAMLOOPS0101/131009996/-1/kamloops01/charges-tossed-due-to-three-year-delay

[Rackem]

Some cultures have a lot less respect for the environment, law, and safety. So culturally, some people seem to have a difficult time realizing the serious nature of a wildlife offense.

It should be part of the immigration/education process but sometimes even people born into this country inherit cultural norms from their parents who immigrated.

And god knows that there are plenty o homegrown asshats with no respect for the environment, law, and safety...

[Rackem]

apparently the charges were tossed from court due to a three year delay. Damn interior guys, tarnishing the judging name yet again! :-)

seriously, though, charges tossed - http://www.kamloopsnews.ca/article/20131001/kamloops0101/131009996/-1/kamloops01/charges-tossed-due-to-three-year-delay


that blows!!!

[Mishka]

That's ridiculous! Load of BS!

It has nothing to do with what part of the province you live in.

[steel_ram]

One of them dirt bags wants a job in law enforcement? Probably will get it too, since not convicted.

[Elkhound]

just read about this. Makes my blood boil

[scott_karana]

On the upside, any time someone Googles their names, they'll find this crap. Good luck getting jobs... :D

[BRvalley]

On the upside, any time someone Googles their names, they'll find this crap. Good luck getting jobs... :D

probably still get jobs, gotta make those employment stats look diversified...

utterly disgusting, not enough CO's out there as it is, and cases like this get thrown....tough job CO's have

[Singleshotneeded]

Deport the scumbags!

[Rackem]

Deport the scumbags!

Uh they may have been born here lol...

[Rackem]

We do need more COs, for sure! Can you imagine these asshats in law enforcement?????Fraaaackkk!

[Riffle Man]

People generalize the location of hunters because some of the people that do come to the interior and hunt are losers and then the locals that have to live hear and deal with all their bs have do so all year around. What they do then leave in someone else's back yard has little effect on them so this is why the generalization.

[Singleshotneeded]

Uh they may have been born here lol... Jail and fine the ones that can't be deported! :-D

[Rackem]

Jail and fine the ones that can't be deported! :-D


I wish, but it got thrown out...dammmittt!

[Singleshotneeded]

Morons, especially immigrants, blatantly abusing our laws just plain irks me!

[Rackem]

anyone who does this irks me....I don't care who the eff they are.

[ElectricDyck]

Another failure of the justice system, big surprise.......

[adriaticum]

10 K fine per animal and revoke their hunting and shooting licenses for life.
You Kamelpoopers should be calling your district judges and screaming their faces for dropping these charges.
M'er F'er. This is a F'n legal system.

[adriaticum]

Stephen R. Harrison
Provincial Court Judge

Telephone: 250 828-4081 Organization Code: JUDI
Alternate Phone: Not Available Organization Unit: KAMLS - Kamloops
Facsimile: 250 828-4368 Email: Not Available
Cellular: Not Available

[Johnny G1]

Whats with these Phuckin courts that they can't get a trial going rite away, just try driven drunk and see how fast the justice system works, and these morons should be used as targets themselves just to prove a point, just makes me sick and tired of these friggin people that they call humans???

[caddisguy]

10 K fine per animal and revoke their hunting and shooting licenses for life.
You Kamelpoopers should be calling your district judges and screaming their faces for dropping these charges.
M'er F'er. This is a F'n legal system.

I don't disagree with the judges ruling. He is upholding the Charter of Rights. Rather than screaming about the judge protecting our rights, perhaps we should look at the real culprit here:

"Crown counsel Joel Gold blames the delays on a lack of resources and notes those shortcomings are not going to vanish any time soon."

Best approach here is to find examples of resources the Crown has wasted on ridiculous charges/cases, make a list and call them out on it via your MP's and local papers.

[adriaticum]

I don't disagree with the judges ruling. He is upholding the Charter of Rights. Rather than screaming about the judge protecting our rights, perhaps we should look at the real culprit here:

"Crown counsel Joel Gold blames the delays on a lack of resources and notes those shortcomings are not going to vanish any time soon."

Best approach here is to find examples of resources the Crown has wasted on ridiculous charges/cases, make a list and call them out on it via your MP's and local papers.

The real culprit here are people of British Columbia who allow this bs to take place.

[caddisguy]

The real culprit here are people of British Columbia who allow this bs to take place.

I agree we should definitely be putting on more pressure to stop this sort of thing from happening.

My reasoning for focusing on the Crown's lack of resource excuse rather than being upset about the judges upholding of the Charter and the right to a quick trial is that it is likely to adversely affect good folks when the RCMP/CO charge them for silly things like "Careless transportation of ammo" for not having it locked in a container, or "having a loaded firearm where it can not be lawfully discharged" for loading a shotgun while leaning against a vehicle. These charges are not uncommon and it's already a long time before their case can be seen in court and get thrown out by a judge.

Without the right to a quick trial, they will be able to confiscate guns/licenses for a decade instead of a couple years before they are returned. Law abiding folks get charged and should have rights too. It sure sounds like these guys were guilty and the Crown had plenty of evidence, but couldn't be bothered to make the slam dunk case. It's worth calling them out on it and embarrassing them a little. For the sake of credibility, it adds pressure for them to do the right thing in the future.

[Ringo 7MM]

If these guys were white, it would have been guilty as charged, just the plain truth I speak.

[rides bike to work]

I think the only justice that can be served now is by the public. Get this story put on the front of every major news paper in the lower mainland pointing out the fact that these ass hats are applying for high profile public service jobs and the pressure from the Starbucks crowd in the city will stop any high end employer from hiring one of these loosers. Put thier pics right on the front page next to some poached deer. The only thing antis hate worse than hunters is poachers.

[caddisguy]

The only thing antis hate worse than hunters is poachers.

Shooting them and leaving them to rot might even be lower than poaching.

[lineofsight]

18 months delay and this becomes a real possibility, 36 month delay and near certainty. Is precedent for this (availability of witnesses, ability to recall... prejudicial to administration of justice) so not much the judge can do under the circumstances (Charter trumps statute & common law alike).

For reference, consider 24 month limitation period on MVAs...

Articles going back several years on this issue:
2012 http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/02/14/what-the-b-c-legal-troubles-may-see-2500-cases-thrown/
2011 http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/b-c-courts-are-in-crisis-say-critics-1.1014791

[ElectricDyck]

The good thing is the article states their names. Most potential employers have google these days, maybe it'll stop the one guy from getting into a position of authority.

[M.Dean]

Maybe the East Indian Leaders down there should some how let the public know how they feel about what these idiots did??? Seems like as soon as something like this happens, and the nationally of the guilty party's known, the public paints everyone from that race as if they also committed the same crime? Just a thought, I know it'll never happen, but it may help if these guys had to answer to someone for this wanton waste of these animals!

[RB2]

One of them dirt bags wants a job in law enforcement? Probably will get it too, since not convicted.

So We will have another crooked cop with no morels.

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

The P.O.S' that did this (provided they did so, the Accused are Not Guilty until proven Guilty in a court of Law) are fit to burn. Someone who could just kill those lovely Deer so wantonly are truly a pack of P.O.S'!!! It's no ones fault but their own.

These are criminals unfit to own firearms if they did in fact do as accused that is. Anyone guilty of such an offence must be punished most severe.

Unbelievable.

What horrible news. Case dismissed... BC has the worst "Justice" system in Canada bar none. Perhaps if they ceased mandating charges via qouta system and ditched that poo pile shirley bunk, I mean bond as Justice Minister there may have actually been some Justice. If you voted lieberal in your last provincial election (or prior, and so on) then I suppose you made your bed.

[DLP]

in my experience around bc and the pacific northwest its usually the locals that do most of the poaching. they think they have a greater right to 'their' resource that supersedes the regs simply because they live there. just my observations in my travels, i have seen and heard it first hand several times.

the people i know respect more the land and resources in the places they visit, i think generally most people do...its common courtesy if you were raised properly.

[brian]

and adding the charges "aren't on the serious end of the Wildlife Act."

Poaching, illegal shooting, and loaded guns in the truck are not on the serious end of the wildlife act???? Holy f$$K what is a serious offense, leaning your loaded gun against a car tire when you put away your car keys?

[Iron Glove]

I see that one of these outstanding citizens is an Insurance Agent.
The Insurance Council of BC tends to take a very dim view of liscenced Agents that run afoul of the Law.
Just might have to let the Council know about this. :wink:

[Rackem]

I see that one of these outstanding citizens is an Insurance Agent.
The Insurance Council of BC tends to take a very dim view of liscenced Agents that run afoul of the Law.
Just might have to let the Council know about this. :wink:

Yeah but the charges were dismissed....innocent until proven guilty and all that crap...

[The Silent Stalker]

WTF? It amazes me how ^&%$^%% our system is. These guys should put on a hill in Nov with antlers on their head.

[Iron Glove]

Yeah but the charges were dismissed....innocent until proven guilty and all that crap...

Unlike some "professions", the Insurance Industry actually takes the personal behaviour of the licensee into consideration.

[sapper]

Okay, I'll try again. In an earlier response to this thread I asked for members to try to curtail making disparaging remarks against immigrants and certain cultures/religious beliefs. My comment, respectfully asked, I thought, was removed and, thankfully, some of the offensive ones were too.
However, as a white (I mention my colour as apparently that matters) immigrant to Canada, I take offense to comments like these being made.
"“Morons, especially immigrants,…”
“If these guys were white, it would have been guilty as charged, just the plain truth I speak...”
Mod's can you let us know what the standards are for HBC so that members know how to communicate and when we run the risk of being edited? I understand editing me if my comments include the quotes of offensive remarks but I'm not sure what the standard is. I think there are many others who obviously don't as well. Either a PM or a general posting would be appreciated. Thanks. My apologies if this is already posted elsewhere and I just need to be reminded as to where to find it.

[BRvalley]

sapper - grow tougher skin, less moisturizer lol......it's an online forum, don't take it personally......are you a brit?

a lot of cultures share different values on wildlife, conservation, harvest, etc....when an immigrant (regardless of skin colour) apply their values to our wildlife, with an apparently blatant disregard for respecting the laws of their landed country, then the locally grown boys get upset....I don't think that is too hard to understand

[Whonnock Boy]

Bottom left corner of the post is a triangle that is the report a post icon. Use it if you feel comments are unacceptable.

[sapper]

sapper - grow tougher skin, less moisturizer lol......it's an online forum, don't take it personally......are you a brit?
No, I'm a Canadian who grew up in South Africa. I left there when I was 16 and have seen the end result of racism and so tend to be a little "sensitive" about it.
Thanks, Whonnock Boy. That's helpful.

[Rackem]

sapper - grow tougher skin, less moisturizer lol......it's an online forum, don't take it personally......are you a brit?

a lot of cultures share different values on wildlife, conservation, harvest, etc....when an immigrant (regardless of skin colour) apply their values to our wildlife, with an apparently blatant disregard for respecting the laws of their landed country, then the locally grown boys get upset....I don't think that is too hard to understand

True, but really any asshat who does this should be reviled. No matter where they were born.

These people could very well have been born here...

That being said, there are cultures who do not value conservation. They view the sea for instance as an endless supply of protein, and do not believe, and apparently can not be convinced, that fish stocks can run out, and when one type of fish goes, they just switch to another...I have spoken at great lengths to some of these people about conservation, management etc, and they are nonplussed, can't even imagine that fish could run out...so when they move to a country that has these conservation and wildlife management laws, they just don't take it seriously...they think it is a joke.

[Rackem]

No, I'm a Canadian who grew up in South Africa. I left there when I was 16 and have seen the end result of racism and so tend to be a little "sensitive" about it.
Thanks, Whonnock Boy. That's helpful.

It's an appropriate sensitivity in my opinion. People have done horrible things based solely on race, and it would seem that many people still do not understand how non productive and damaging racism is. We still have a long long way to go...

We are all one people, judge behaviour of the individual alone. Take each person one by one. Prejudice is shutting doors to opportunities and experiences that could shift paradigms and open your mind to a much bigger world.

[Aheny]

A bit of time in jail and maybe they can come to terms with the reality that nobody cares if they agree or understand. They have to follow the law. Period

[hare_assassin]

...I have spoken at great lengths to some of these people about conservation, management etc, and they are nonplussed, can't even imagine that fish could run out...so when they move to a country that has these conservation and wildlife management laws, they just don't take it seriously...they think it is a joke.

And our justice system just confirmed the joke.

[Rackem]

A bit of time in jail and maybe they can come to terms with the reality that nobody cares if they agree or understand. They have to follow the law. Period

The problem seems to be getting them to court in the first place....

[BRvalley]

These people could very well have been born here...



regardless of birth place, I'm going to wager a bet that their cultural values, based on their race, may have something to do with their level of respect for our wildlife...

I have seen this many times, especially fishing the runs, Canada's cultural diversity is a great thing, not contesting that....but I have seen too much "cultural ignorance" to accept it as an excuse to poach....

[Barracuda]

in my experience around bc and the pacific northwest its usually the locals that do most of the poaching. they think they have a greater right to 'their' resource that supersedes the regs simply because they live there. just my observations in my travels, i have seen and heard it first hand several times.

the people i know respect more the land and resources in the places they visit, i think generally most people do...its common courtesy if you were raised properly.


I agree . ....

[oldSchool]

I can see how some people see this as a cultural thing, I'm not perfect I've said some stupi sh**t in my day. But now I have a question maybe someone here can answer.
The back of my hunter number card says it belongs to "fish and wildlife branch" or something to that affect and must be returned if ordered to do so.
If the CO's lost this fight on a delay, why can't whoever is responsible confiscate these peoples cards, or put them on list so they can never get one. Could this affect someones PAL?
Yes people poach without a licence, but it might be a positive step and send a message to both ethiical hunters that there is some justice, and to poachers the risk is going to be greater if they don't have required licences and tickets when in the bush.
Just asking

[Rackem]

regardless of birth place, I'm going to wager a bet that their cultural values, based on their race, may have something to do with their level of respect for our wildlife...

I have seen this many times, especially fishing the runs, Canada's cultural diversity is a great thing, not contesting that....but I have seen too much "cultural ignorance" to accept it as an excuse to poach....

I agree, we do need to have a better program of educating new Canadians as to our laws, and cultural values. They should not be allowed to claim ignorance.

[squamishhunter]

It was thrown out. http://m.kamloopsnews.ca/article/20131001/KAMLOOPS0101/131009996/-1/KAMLOOPS/charges-tossed-due-to-three-year-delay&template=JQMArticle

[Rackem]

Apparently the charges were tossed from court due to a three year delay. Damn Interior guys, tarnishing the judging name yet again! :-)

Seriously, though, charges tossed - http://www.kamloopsnews.ca/article/20131001/KAMLOOPS0101/131009996/-1/kamloops01/charges-tossed-due-to-three-year-delay
..Yes that was mentioned earlier...page one...

[caddisguy]

I can see how some people see this as a cultural thing, I'm not perfect I've said some stupi sh**t in my day. But now I have a question maybe someone here can answer.
The back of my hunter number card says it belongs to "fish and wildlife branch" or something to that affect and must be returned if ordered to do so.
If the CO's lost this fight on a delay, why can't whoever is responsible confiscate these peoples cards, or put them on list so they can never get one. Could this affect someones PAL?
Yes people poach without a licence, but it might be a positive step and send a message to both ethiical hunters that there is some justice, and to poachers the risk is going to be greater if they don't have required licences and tickets when in the bush.
Just asking

It could affect their PAL. There is a question about it on the application and if I recall, it is also on the renewal:

17a) During the past five years, have you been charged, convicted or granted a discharge for an offence:
....
17a(ii) involving the misuse, possession, or storage of a firearm

They will have to answer that. Whether or not it will lead to revocation is uncertain though. We also do not know for certain who the PAL holder is and whether or not that individual was one of those charged.

Though unless their was admission of guilt at the time, I would hate to see anyone lose their firearms over a charge without conviction because that could happen to any of us non-poaching / loaded gun driving / shooting across road folks if accused.

[squamishhunter]

..Yes that was mentioned earlier...page one...


Never hurts to reiterate that we have a useless justice system.

[Rackem]

Never hurts to reiterate that we have a useless justice system.

Painfully true...:cry:

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

"It could affect their PAL. There is a question about it on the application and if I recall, it is also on the renewal:

17a) During the past five years, have you been charged, convicted or granted a discharge for an offence:
....
17a(ii) involving the misuse, possession, or storage of a firearm

They will have to answer that. Whether or not it will lead to revocation is uncertain though. We also do not know for certain who the PAL holder is and whether or not that individual was one of those charged."

Though unless their was admission of guilt at the time, I would hate to see anyone lose their firearms over a charge without conviction because that could happen to any of us non-poaching / loaded gun driving / shooting across road folks if accused"

Only Criminal Record for certain offences under the Criminal Code (including recieving a discharge as this requires an admission of Guilt) and/or a history of certain forms of mental illness preclude one from obtaining a PAL. Ticking "Yes" to any of the questions contained within B-Personal Information, Box 6 on a PAL Application simply means you have some explaining to do and are required to provide further details. It may cause delays if there is insufficient information provided by the applicant. It may even cause further problems dependant upon circumstances. Yet ultimately without the aforementioned record(s) existing one will recieve their PAL eventually, even if they must go through Court to do so.

It is not my intent to derail the thread via topic change, simply thought this information may be of use. If I was the Crown prosecutor in the case mentioned in Rackem's post that propogated this thread, I'd be off to the Court of Appeal to get the charges reinstated... IF the charges are actually genuine that is and those accused can be proven Guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt. Otherwise it may just be some anti-Hunting media spiel and/or racist C/O, who's to say. I did not see them do what they were accused of.

[walks with deer]

Hmmm google their names? pretty dirty play by them

[Paulyman]

I was on the Highbar Rd a few years ago and saw some indo canadian hunters there, I wonder if it's the same group of guys? They asked if I had anything, I replied no. they suggested there where plenty of deer in the farmers field and I should do as they did and shoot one from there. they told me they got a 5x5 from the farmers field.

[139grainsofhell]

What a joke don't worry guys they won't be charged and the one fellow will be writing us tickets in the future while they target practise on our wildlife....if I did that I'd be charged that day..what a joke f$&k

[Phreddy]

The folks that do this type of thing, plus those that try to say that everyone from a certain area of the country are all crapheads, are, in my opinion, living proof that some of our ancestors had sex with their livestock. I've met some damned good hunters from the lower mainland and have also seen some locals do some real dumb $hit things out in the bush. Made a few mistakes myself over the last 56 or 57 years. Sorry Dually, but I didn't realize that there were perfect folks like you out there.

[davet]

our justice system sucks !!!!! if this happened in the states the outcome would be much different.

[Abashai]

Wow charges thrown out. What a slap in the face.
Also as a side note jerks, idiots, and dirt bags come in all ethnicities, colours, and religions. It has nothing to do with the fact that they are complete dirt bags.