Time for change

[camo-redneck]

I know this has more then likely been brought up several times ..... But in this day and age of putting people on the moon and computerized everything do we still have to fill out a card and pray to god our leh's make it to Victoria , and be manually entered?? I don't know about everyone but I'm guessing most people are in the same position with holidays having to be booked long before mid July. When the hell will gov get out of the Stone Age and use technology as the fine tool it is?????

[The Hermit]

The technology is already there but the MOE doesn't have the money to set it up... I'd be willing to pay $10 per application if the extra $4 went to paying for getting it set up. Would you?

[North49]

Thats what it really comes down to....dollars and cents. And we all know our current government doesn't like to spend a dime on anything that doesn't make them millions.

[sako_300]

I know this has more then likely been brought up several times ..... But in this day and age of putting people on the moon and computerized everything do we still have to fill out a card and pray to god our leh's make it to Victoria , and be manually entered?? I don't know about everyone but I'm guessing most people are in the same position with holidays having to be booked long before mid July. When the hell will gov get out of the Stone Age and use technology as the fine tool it is?????

Funny you say that - the last time we went to the moon was in the 70's (Apollo 17, 1972). So... yes, we still have to pray.

[BiG Boar]

Don't give them any ideas Hermit. d

[mungojeerie]

Ha I was thinking about this yesterday.... Im lucky enough to be in a position that I can book holidays relatively last minute and my big hunting trips are always kinda dependent on LEH results.... but I was wondering what others do... I guess apply to LEH's based on planned trips.

We finally changed how we buy fishing licenses... what a fantastic system! being able to buy a fishing license or conservation stamps on the fly at any time of the day or night. We need this in effect for hunting licenses as well.

[J_T]

Government already own the licence to build the system. The return on investment would likely be less than two years. The benefits of being able to add hunter data into the wildlife management model outweigh the costs exponentially. I suspect the issue is simple, there are those who simply don't want change.

[Spy]

I would like to see an audit done. Lets look at the numbers, employees, projects ect. If they are really short staffed ect. Im not buying all their excuses. I want to know where all the $$$ are going. Anyone in the know or anywhere we can find info?Im holding off on putting in for vacation time until I know,which could backfire or mean I quit.

[Bowzone_Mikey]

Thats what it really comes down to....dollars and cents. And we all know our current government doesn't like to spend a dime on anything that doesn't make them millions.

Are you kidding ? our government will trip over a Dollar to save a dime ... and be proud of that fact

[Sofa King]

and how on earth is it possible for an individual to enter 2-3 applications every year for over 20 years and never get drawn once?
that's why i stopped donating my $$ to them.

does anyone truly know their process for selection?

[Wild one]

and how on earth is it possible for an individual to enter 2-3 applications every year for over 20 years and never get drawn once?
that's why i stopped donating my $$ to them.

does anyone truly know their process for selection?

Betting it is the odds you apply for. Most guys who get draw often apply for areas where the odds are more in there favour. I apply for 4-6 fall draws and get a tag about every second season but a portion of my draws are good odds.

Still have not pull an archery roasy elk in 14 years and the odds are not that bad Oh well.

If not drawing a tag bothers you only apply for areas with really good odds. Other than that you need to pray others stop applying for that area

[40incher]

The technology is already there but the MOE doesn't have the money to set it up... I'd be willing to pay $10 per application if the extra $4 went to paying for getting it set up. Would you?

It's time realize it is hopeless and go the contracted private sector route. We are constantly held hostage by a bloated bureaucracy that works to rule when they don't get their way.

A private contractor would have had the draw done by June 10th, and made a good profit doing it! It is indeed "Time for Change".

[Bowzone_Mikey]

It's time realize it is hopeless and go the contracted private sector route. We are constantly held hostage by a bloated bureaucracy that works to rule when they don't get their way.

A private contractor would have had the draw done by June 10th, and made a good profit doing it! It is indeed "Time for Change".

So the private contractor will rake in all the money from the draw apps ....probally 12 bucks per ... plus rake in Government tax dollars for providing the service ... yea because that is fiscally prudent

Contractor will charge x amount to build the system , x amount to impliment the system ... charge a minimum of of 30% over and above the cost of the dedicated servers to make the system live ... and then a licence fee ... if its like any other licence fee the Government is paying for to a private vendor its a per cap ... that means for every name on that data base there will be an annual charge ... so to be be effective that would be an annual charge for each hunter numbers ... probally to the tune of 50-100 bucks per annum.
I say this because I know for a fact that several of the government services payroll programs (private vendor) cost a per head annual licence fee ... depending on the program I have heard of up to 100 dollars per year per person ... the normal is about 55 tho Just for a name in the database

[Andrewh]

Provided they have no intention of going to the online system any time soon, why not push the due date earlier. Rather than the May 24th or whatever it was, why not make it at the mid/end of Feb or something?

THAT would solve the issue of booking off vacation time and not add to the cost of running the LEH draw...

[Rackmastr]

Alberta manages to do the private-contractor route at $3.50/application online.

The online system is the way to go by far. While some portions of hunting BC are great (paper booklet, no tags to affix, etc), the electronic system has so many upsides no doubt.

As for cost-effectiveness, I couldnt speak to it as that is something that would require some calculations that I obviously dont have, but man it sure would be nice to be online in BC....

[604redneck]

and how on earth is it possible for an individual to enter 2-3 applications every year for over 20 years and never get drawn once?
that's why i stopped donating my $$ to them.

does anyone truly know their process for selection?
U put in for 20 years 2-3 draws and werent drawn once?

[Bowzone_Mikey]

Alberta manages to do the private-contractor route at $3.50/application online.

The online system is the way to go by far. While some portions of hunting BC are great (paper booklet, no tags to affix, etc), the electronic system has so many upsides no doubt.

As for cost-effectiveness, I couldnt speak to it as that is something that would require some calculations that I obviously dont have, but man it sure would be nice to be online in BC....


Not saying it cant be done ... but lets think about our governments track record when it comes to finacial responsibility shall we?

the people in the leg may say that they are fincially responsible ... but we have proven time and time again that they are not. Bill Bennett is doing a Core review ... which is the catch phrase of the day to spend more money to get nothing accomplished

[Sofa King]

U put in for 20 years 2-3 draws and werent drawn once?

yup.
and after awhile, i changed to areas with way better odds, thinking that must be the problem.
no difference.
and my dad was putting in for even longer, and he got one doe draw and a moose draw once.
that's it.

does anyone truly know their method of selection?
our last name is a much later letter in the alphabet.
we were starting to think they started at the beginning every year.
a know a guy who's last name starts with a B, he gets drawn every year, or damn near close to it.
plus, he puts his wife's name in also, even though she doesn't hunt, and she gets drawn also.

needless to say, there's no way that someone should be able to go that long and never be drawn.

[Sofa King]

and for the beginning, i didn't really care.
it was all part of the excitement in the off-season, and something to keep one primed for the upcoming season.
but after awhile, it just got ridiculous and a waste of money.

[Philcott]

does anyone truly know their method of selection?


This is what they supposedly do. http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/hunting/resident/docs/leh_system.pdf

[hare_assassin]

This is what they supposedly do. http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/hunting/resident/docs/leh_system.pdf

I was just going to post the link...

Basically, it is plain old luck. Nothing to do with names, timing, or anything of the sort. My last name begins with one of the last letters in the alphabet and last year was my first season in BC; you don't want to know what I won ;)

This year will be duallie's year!

[Sofa King]

^^nope.
i'll never put in ever again.
i'm done with it.

[hare_assassin]

^^nope.
i'll never put in ever again.
i'm done with it.

After that many years, I can understand the frustration.

How did you send them?

[Sofa King]

This is what they supposedly do. http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/hunting/resident/docs/leh_system.pdf

"supposedly", or is that how they truly do it?
it just doesn't seem realistic that some people get drawn year after year and others never, ever do.
that shows that their system doesn't work properly and isn't fair.
someone who gets it one year, shouldn't be eligible the next season.
but they would never do that because then their profits would drop as those knowing they can't get it that year wouldn't donate.
instead, they want everyone to believe they have the chance of being drawn.

[Sofa King]

After that many years, I can understand the frustration.

How did you send them?

same way as everyone.
they received them, because i always received my letter informing me that i wasn't drawn.

[Moe.JKU]

I agree even if they don't want to go to a online system. Just push the date earlier. We as hunters will get them in if we want to. Then we don't have a month do book holidays get prepped we can plan a lot longer in advance.

[steel_ram]

Gives the snail-mailman something to do besides waiting for someone to please please put some mail in my bag. The government doesn't care about money. To them it's all fairy money. They'd rather manually input the very same data we took time to print on the card, but probably slower, just to justify their sweet jobs.

[nedarb2]

when i worked for the ministry of forests (2 years ago, and its still the same!), we had to manually fill in time sheets, mail them to the regional office, where they were manually gone over, and hours calculated. it was insane! not one paycheck came back with out an error, and it was never in your favor of course :evil:.

[Everett]

yup.
and after awhile, i changed to areas with way better odds, thinking that must be the problem.
no difference.
and my dad was putting in for even longer, and he got one doe draw and a moose draw once.
that's it.

does anyone truly know their method of selection?
our last name is a much later letter in the alphabet.
we were starting to think they started at the beginning every year.
a know a guy who's last name starts with a B, he gets drawn every year, or damn near close to it.
plus, he puts his wife's name in also, even though she doesn't hunt, and she gets drawn also.

needless to say, there's no way that someone should be able to go that long and never be drawn.

Well my last name starts with "C" and my wife's last name starts with "V" From memory I have drawn 12 LEH tags in 9 years my wife has drawn 8 tags in 7 years so it seems both ends of the alphabet are good for us probably the guys in the middle who are getting screwed.

But even though the system is working for us I still want it to change just so I don't have to here the whining of those that never draw:twisted:

[BearSupreme]

How many government monkeys does it take to turn a big barrel full of applicants?

..... That wasnt a joke, seriously, how does it take them over a month to do this simple draw?!

[Sofa King]

Well my last name starts with "C" and my wife's last name starts with "V" From memory I have drawn 12 LEH tags in 9 years my wife has drawn 8 tags in 7 years so it seems both ends of the alphabet are good for us probably the guys in the middle who are getting screwed.

But even though the system is working for us I still want it to change just so I don't have to here the whining of those that never draw:twisted:

your wife didn't take your name?

i'm not whining.
you wouldn't be pissed if in all those years neither you nor your wife-by-another-name got drawn once?
it's not a fair system if some are donating and never getting rewarded.

[f350ps]

^^nope.
i'll never put in ever again.
i'm done with it.
I wish there were more people with your conviction! :) K

[Sofa King]

I wish there were more people with your conviction! :) K

they could offer me a guarranteed draw this year and i'd tell 'em to shove it up their ass.
over twenty years of two people entering three draws each year, that they gladly took that $$ and gave nothing in return.
that's alot of donated $$.
and here all this time i didn't think i was very charitable.

[Everett]

your wife didn't take your name?

i'm not whining.
you wouldn't be pissed if in all those years neither you nor your wife-by-another-name got drawn once?
it's not a fair system if some are donating and never getting rewarded.

You must live in the 1950's women tend to keep there own name even when married these days. If we have kids she will change it but until that time she can use her own name. That and I don't want to confuse the LEH gods covering both ends of alphabet seems to be working.:-D
Yes I would be pissed after 20 years of not drawing hell I get pissed if I miss a year. I too applaud you for keeping your money out of the hands of Victoria.

[Gr8 white hunter]

They have to do it this way so they can pick out lodge members cards first,then the rest of the cards get picked randomly.so good luck non members.

[Geo.338]

While there may be a better way to submit our LEH's , however I think I would rather have a well paid government employee taking their sweet time
entering data than a contract worker who is probably paid less and cares even less about doing a quality job .

An online system doesn't guarantee a smooth running system .

[BearSupreme]

While there may be a better way to submit our LEH's , however I think I would rather have a well paid government employee taking their sweet time
entering data than a contract worker who is probably paid less and cares even less about doing a quality job .

An online system doesn't guarantee a smooth running system .

Government workers are generally told to slow down when they have a monopoly on business, because what else are you going to do? A private contractor would actually have to perform the task properly and efficiently or else the next guy will. Arent you sick of paying more because the gov screws up or is inefficient?

[40incher]

Man, this becomes difficult when one has to explain every detail ...

Let's say the bureaucracy costs $100,000.00 to do the draw. Put it out for bid and it will likley come in at $50,000.00 or less! The draw brings in well over a million dollars last time we checked years ago. The gov't makes their money and we get real service for our $$$ spent.

Put a timeline in the contract that holds the contractor to a June 10th deadline. It's not rocket science. It's free enterprise, and the bureaucrats can't compete. Why would they, when dysfunction pays?

[OutWest]

they could offer me a guarranteed draw this year and i'd tell 'em to shove it up their ass.
over twenty years of two people entering three draws each year, that they gladly took that $$ and gave nothing in return.
that's alot of donated $$.
and here all this time i didn't think i was very charitable.

The system is as fair as possible, there's no conspiracy in place.

It's amazing how many guys think 1:4 are good odds..

[Sofa King]

The system is as fair as possible, there's no conspiracy in place.

It's amazing how many guys think 1:4 are good odds..

how's it as "fair as possible"?
doesn't albortia take those who get drawn one year out the next?
i may be wrong, but i thought i heard something along those lines.
how is it not more fair that they ensure all those submitting leh's year after year after year eventually all get a draw?
how is it as "fair as possible" that some get drawn year after year and others never get drawn?

would you not get suspicious if the same person kept winning the 6/49 week after week?
i'm not saying it's rigged, or that there's a conspiracy.
just that it's not as fair as it could be.
do you not believe that everyone that enters every year over a long duration should not all get drawn eventually?

what's with the "1:4 odds" comment?
i said that after not getting anything for awhile, i was making sure to enter great odds areas.
even though i wasn't even interested in some of those areas.

[Gateholio]

There is nothing more fair than random draw. Everybody has the same chance.

[hunter1947]

I agree x2 why don't they move the LEH dew date to reach the office by May first and have the results no later then the middle of June..

[Darksith]

why not have the cards required to be in a week after the hunting license expires, then you could have the results out in may...

[tater]

Is the LEH system perfect? No
Is it even "good"? Maybe, but probably not enough for most.
Is it convenient when they run it? No.
Is it "fair"? Yeah. The word "lottery" is the key. Just because you play 6-49 every week for 25 years doesn't mean you are entitled to win once.

What really gets me though is the overlooking of the fact that we live here. In BC. Where people pay thousands of dollars for the often once in a lifetime chance to hunt species we hunt on over the counter tags for less than $100.
Look at our length of seasons, variety of species, scenery and opportunity and tell me if we are really that hard done by.

Better than a lot of states where you pay for preference points etc. And yes, AB and SK use the pool systems, and yes you are 'guaranteed' to get drawn every three or four years.
Big deal. Still means you have to be in AB or SK (and yes, i've lived in both of those provinces).:twisted:

[Ambush]

My LEH luck is dissmal. I'm so used to getting nothing that I only rant to my wife for about five minutes now.

Is there a conspiracy? No. But I also do not believe that the system actually has a working "reduced odds" component. After keeping track of results from a number of people, on identical moose draws, statistically the numbers are not plausible.

And the system has to go to an on-line model. To think that there are still people opening envelopes and hand entering info into a computer would be laughable if it wasn't so sad. Do it on-line, if you screw up then you're tough luck.
I can do my Alberta and US draws and licences from my home in PG, but I can't do it for my home province?!?! Sad and stupid. Somebody is purposely holding up the show.

Time for all hunters to write a letter to the environment minister. He/she can surely get that done in the new term.

[steel_ram]

I don't know why draws are not fair. Guess the same reason "life isn't fair". Published data for the 6/49 draw shows that some numbers get drawn more than others. I guess the only way to even things up is the "reduced odds", system. I think if you've put in for something that is 1:4 odds you should be getting a draw on your 5th attempt. Of course those on the lucky end of the spectrum will disagree. And yeah, put it all on line. The kiddies in those offices on Jutland have all the latest techno-gadgets, time to actually use them for work.

[Mikey Rafiki]

It may have a working reduced odds system, but if it only reduces your odds by something like 1% it's negligible.

They should either remove that completely and make it clear your odds will always be the same, or create a real reduced odds system that has bite and is known by the public.

Their fear is that they would lose a lot of LEH revenue when people stop applying after they are successful, so the costs would have to go up or things stay the same.

I would gladly pay more for the same crappy paper system with effective reduced odds so my one neighbour doesn't keep getting a moose draw while my father, brother and I have been skunked for a good 10 years.

[1/2 slam]

A couple of years ago I spoke to the fellow in charge in Victoria. We are doomed. He is an idiot.

[Gr8 white hunter]

How come some people I know have gotten a draw 7 years in a row? Me nothing 15 for years .

[goatdancer]

It probably would not take a rocket scientist to figure out how to do the entries for the draws online, rather than the mail-in system. You can claim your homeowners grant for your property taxes online, so it can't be a big deal to set up the LEH the same way. The Alberta system is a weighted draw, but you still have to buy your LEH entries every year or you don't move up the ladder.

[J_T]

It probably would not take a rocket scientist to figure out how to do the entries for the draws online, rather than the mail-in system. You can claim your homeowners grant for your property taxes online, so it can't be a big deal to set up the LEH the same way. The Alberta system is a weighted draw, but you still have to buy your LEH entries every year or you don't move up the ladder.Technology isn't the issue. Elected officials are not the issue. A willingness for operational staff to support the move is.

[Abashai]

Our system definitely needs to move online but I disagree with going to a weighted draw system like Alberta. The random draw is the only fair way that gives equal opportunity to new and experienced hunters. You generally have an idea of your odds of getting a draw before applying so its not like anybody has a reason to have unrealistic expectations.

[hare_assassin]

I think if you've put in for something that is 1:4 odds you should be getting a draw on your 5th attempt.

This is a common misconception about odds. The most important thing to remember is that each new draw is completely unrelated to any/all previous draws. The odds are reset each time.

In other words, if the odds are 4:1 each year and you have entered the draw 8 years in a row (or 20 years in a row, or whatever), you are not "more likely" to win. You have exactly the same chance of winning as someone who is entering for the first time this year.

In a truly random system (such as is described in the LEH PDF posted earlier) the year-to-year success of individual applicants will vary widely. It is the nature of truly random draws that a few people will get skunked most of the time, and a few people will win much more than others. On average, there will be lots of people who win once-in-a-while and this will be variable.

So, while I do understand and sympathize with duallie's situation, we need to keep in mind that he is the example of how truly random draws can play out very poorly for a very small portion of the people who enter the draws.

It is also entirely possible that if duallie continued to apply every year for the next ten years, that he could win something every year. Again, past results do not indicate what might happen in future draws. For this reason, I would encourage duallie to reconsider. The one way to guarantee not winning is to not apply. The logic doesn't play out well. "I applied every year for 20 years and didn't get anything, so for the next 20 years I am going to guarantee I don't get anything by not applying".

Duallie, I am not trying to be critical of you at all. Just trying to provide some encouragement. Look back at the 20 years of fees and be glad you helped fund conservation efforts in BC, and look to future years as new possibilities. You truly do have exactly the same chances as everyone else.

[s0ylentgreen]

"You miss 100% of the shots you dont take"

-wayne gretzky
-s0ylent green

[Darksith]

if you don't win an LEH head somewhere for an open season...thats the beauty about BC, its most likely open somewhere, you just gotta get there.

[steel_ram]

There's absolutely no reason with modern technology that everyone shouldn't get their fair share of this provinces resources. Chance luck, which some people have and some don't, doesn't need to be the only factor deciding who gets draws. Unlike a lot of pure chance things in life, there are other options in this situation. I know what odds mean, but still think in a 1:4, one should be guaranteed after the 4th loss. That would be simply fair.

[OutWest]

How come some people I know have gotten a draw 7 years in a row? Me nothing 15 for years .

Nothing more than luck of the draw and/or putting in for hunts with good odds.

[Bowzone_Mikey]

I have been buying 6-49 twice a week and super 7 once /week since I turned 19 .... both with the extra and in the case of 6-49 ... western -49 too ... I have yet to win any jackpot ... sure a couple free plays here and there .... but god dammit ... its rigged!

[ROY-alty33]

Defiantly time for a change to our antiquated paper draw system!
Like I have said on here before, the biggest glaring error I have first hand knowledge of is, guy I work with gets second choice moose draw in area that was my my first and I get nil. More than likely data entry error on his part or on clerk entering #s in the system. Or system has serious flaws, but we will never get an audit to know how often this happens. Either way he was drawn as his second choice and hundreds of other guys were not.
A quick google search shows, Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, Ontario, Saskatchewan, Alberta offer online draws. Manitoba and New Brunswick still use paper application, And PEI has no big game seasons. And my french isnt that good so not sure about Quebec. Pretty good company we are keeping there Gov of BC good work!!!!!
I wonder if you could do an access to information and get past years draw results?

[Bear Chaser]

A couple of years ago I spoke to the fellow in charge in Victoria. We are doomed. He is an idiot.

I suspected as much.

[Gr8 white hunter]

B.S. it's not luck of the draw, we put in for the same place medium odds 6-1 odds isn't that great.

[OutWest]

B.S. it's not luck of the draw, we put in for the same place medium odds 6-1 odds isn't that great.

You're right, it's not luck of the draw, it's a conspiracy.

Considering there's an 83% chance you don't get drawn at 6:1 odds, it's no wonder you didn't land any LEH's.

[tater]

Wow. Time for a revisit of grade nine math, and the "Odd and Statistics" chapter.
Or just keep believing that there is a conspiracy and that because everything else in life is so fair that the LEH has to be as well.

[RobRuger]

I propose we auction off leh tags. Thats the only fair way.

Really though, I dont like the reduced odds for previously succesful hunters. If my odds of being drawn are half, shouldent i pay half?

Its not fair.

[hare_assassin]

I propose we auction off leh tags. Thats the only fair way.



I hope you are being sarcastic. LEH go to the highest bidders? That's the least fair way possible!!!

[aggiehunter]

...sure a lot of talk about something we don't actually need to go hunting in this wonderfull province...

[steel_ram]

So lets say you work for the Ministry in charge of LEH. Running the LEH is not part of anyones regular job discription, so it calls for a special group to do the chore outside of regular business hours. This means coming in on a weekend (overtime). Lets make it a $tatutory long weekend(double overtime). Assuming the same people do this year after year, some having 20+ years on the govenment payroll, that's going to add up to a big chunk of coin for a couple of days work. I wouldn't want to give that up that either.

[Brett]

REDUCED ODDS;
how does someone with 10 Leh cards reduce your odds by 60% this year if you've been drawn in the last 2 for moose or elk?
Does the computer tell them to reduce.. No... does a computer do the reducing??after its been inputted??? if a computer does it then the system exists without a front end or webpage! (should be an easy upgrade) OR this isn't done at all because 10 people with 179,000 cards are NOT going to look up past histories and run multiple draws excluding numbers to follow the reduced odds rules. Any one in the know care to esplain?:)

[Amphibious]

so many sandy vaginas..... wow.

It's a lottery, and a good one. never get draw for your favourite 1:900 sheep draw? try putting in some place else. I get something every year, but I also play the odds and am willing to travel.

We live in an amazing place with easily accessible world class hunting, quit bitching or move east?

[Brett]

i get draws, and plan in GOS areas as do a lot of people.but that doesn't mean that i can't see problems with the current system " move East" how about move on!

[RB2]

I wish there were more people with your conviction! :) K

I AGREE for sure

[RB2]

There is nothing more fair than random draw. Everybody has the same chance.

Just like the lottery, which it is.