Draw with Back Tension

[rollingrock]

I made this video to show how I use the back tension to draw my bow. :-D



http://youtu.be/ho5Fw_GFmoA

[Grantmac]

I don't see any actual expansion, so I'm not sure how this demonstrates BT. Plus it seems like you aren't able to reach your correct DL either due to overbowing or excessive stack.
Judging by the other video you posted I'd say it's a question of overbowing combined with incorrect technique.

-Grant

[greybark]

Hey Grant , you are right to a very small point . As Bill posts this is his back tension drawing his hunting bow , it`s his style and you seem to read an awful lot into short videos that shows very little .
I know Bill and appreaciate his enthusiasm (first 3-D) and for you to adapt such a judgemental post that lacks constructive advise is short sighted.

[Grantmac]

Enthusiasm is great. Someone should take that enthusiasm and use it to teach him some decent form before he ingrains too many bad habits.
What I see is a person who hasn't had any quality instruction, shooting a bow which isn't suitable for his draw length and strength.

Back tension is a very subtle and misunderstood feeling during the shot. I think I've seen perhaps a handful of people who shoot traditional actually understand and use it correctly.

Drawing with the back, and BT/expansion are two very different things. He is definitely attempting to use the back muscles to draw, but he isn't drawing far enough to actually use BT and expand.

Someone should do him a favor and hand him a bow he can handle. Hint: it's not a 48" horsebow.

-Grant

[Bowzone_Mikey]

you dont use back tension to draw ... you use back muscles but not tension ...

Backtension is a better decribed as Scapular motion to activate a release or relax hand aid to let an arrow fly

Just saying tho

[Islander]

I know Bill, too and have seen him shoot. He's a beginner but he is alot more traditional than you, Grant.

[Grantmac]

Thanks! I've worked very hard over the last 3 years to rebuild my shot from when I was "Trad", it's still not where I want to be but I can see light at the end of the tunnel.

I am very proud to see how well one of the people I have coached did at the Hell Hole. He took second in longbow at his first event which is a great accomplishment and I think we will be seeing a lot more from him in the future. I just wish there was more quality instruction available for people wishing to shoot single strings.

-Grant

[rollingrock]

Oh sh!t...am I in trouble?:-D

I used the term "back tension" because that's all they use on tradgang. "Draw with BT" is all they talk about. So I assume that this term is the same as "draw with back or back muscle".

I think if I hold my bow with less tilting or straight, you probably will see more expansion. But I feel that type of form might not be practical for hunting. As a matter of fact, I don't lose any DL or feel overbowed. I snap shoot to gain more speed and feel more comfortable with better accuracy.

Greybark and other trad guys have taught me a lot. I just feel that I couldn't spend enough time with them!

[Bowzone_Mikey]

Oh sh!t...am I in trouble?:-D

I used the term "back tension" because that's all they use on tradgang. "Draw with BT" is all they talk about. So I assume that this term is the same as "draw with back or back muscle".

I think if I hold my bow with less tilting or straight, you probably will see more expansion. But I feel that type of form might not be practical for hunting. As a matter of fact, I don't lose any DL or feel overbowed. I snap shoot to gain more speed and feel more comfortable with better accuracy.

Greybark and other trad guys have taught me a lot. I just feel that I couldn't spend enough time with them!


Personally I think you shoot fine ... even as a Guy that shoots with training wheels ... stick shooters never have "good textbook form" ... they find something that is repeatable and consistantly works for them.


I dont know why the peeps on Trad gang talk about back tension ... because anyone that shoots a bow canted (like any trad shooter) cant really acheive true back tension and a relaxed draw arm due to stance and various other factors

here are some great articles on Back tension and exactly what it is .... Happy Reading
http://www.thearcher.com/coachCorner/tipDetails.cfm?tipId=7&type=general&email=No
http://mnarchery.org/try-it-with-back-tension.html
http://bowsite.com/bowsite/features/practical_bowhunter/perfectrelease/
http://www.alansarchery.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Technique/Technique01Frame.htm

an Article written By George Ryals (people may wanna read this as GRIV is the most successfull coach in North America at the moment)

What really is back tension?
By George Ryals

Many shooters are mystified with the notion of “back tension.” For many shooters it is this mysterious feeling you get in your back when your shoulder blades are rotated, tucked, pulled, and squeezed into just the right contorted position that enables the elusive “perfect shot”. For others it requires a medical degree and a body chart to locate ambiguous muscle groups that must be flexed and pinched at just the right interval while poking at your release trigger. Ultimately, it is a confusing distraction that takes our mind off aiming, and aiming is the grand wizard of tasks that must be completed without distraction to complete the perfect shot.

All kidding aside, “back tension” can be simplified as a dynamic tension that is set up at the beginning of the draw and it is continues through the release of the arrow.

I feel that it is second only to aiming as the key fundamental part of shooting form that generates accuracy and consistency. Proper setup and use of this "tension" can help you shoot longer by relieving fatigue. It will make you a more stable shooter by relieving muscle tension in the arms and hands. Dynamic tension also reduces the amount of muscle groups involved in the shot. This will diminish muscle tremors that can cause sudden misses, quick shots, and general unsteadiness.

What does it feel like?

Try this exercise. Make a bow drawing motion (without a bow in your hands). For most people it is easier to isolate the back without the weight of the bow or the tension of the string. While making a drawing motion, make sure your hands, forearms, and shoulders are relaxed as they can be. Actually let your hands dangle loosely as you do this. Keep your back straight, head up and turned towards the target, and straighten your bow arm, but keep the elbow unlocked. As you reach full draw, you will be able to feel your back working to hold full draw. Keep your elbow high. The lower your elbow gets, the greater your chances become for your back transferring the pressure to your arms and hands. Loss of tension is usually unrecoverable without letting down and restarting the shot. Leaning back at full draw is also another common cause of tension loss. I had this problem and it is hard to fix because you can’t feel it. Stick a bow square or an arrow in your waistband and let it go down into your pant leg next to your leg. Usually an arrow works best because of its length. It will remind you to stay straight as it stops you from leaning as you draw. This feels weird, but it does help.

This is the critical juncture in the whole technique. If your hands and arms take over, you will increase your shot time and will lose stability. The longer you stay with the shot the more unstable you will become, almost guaranteeing a miss. You can test this feel just as you did above by going through the same motions except make your fists super tight. You will be able to feel a diminished amount of tension in your back and if you keep your hands balled tight enough, you can feel the shaking and muscle tremors caused by this loss of tension.

How do you shoot a bow with well placed tension?

Dynamic tension is a simple push pull technique. You need to feel a balance between the push and the pull. Imagine drawing a bungee cord and you are stretching it between your bow arm and your drawing hand. Dynamic tension or the push pull effect stretches the cord. Most pro shooters set up this dynamic tension when they raise the bow to the target. This stages the proper muscle groups. The muscles that you use to draw the bow are the very same muscles that you use to aim the bow, and the back muscles will give you the most stability. I feel that it is virtually impossible to reach your full potential as a shooter unless you draw the in this manner because it is extremely difficult to draw the bow with one muscle group and then, at full draw, switch to the proper muscle group. If you draw it with arm and hand power, you are doomed to aim it with arm power, which is incredibly unstable. As you reach full draw you should pull the bow into the stops and continue to apply mild pressure as you align your peep with the scope and the dot with the X. Once everything is centered and anchored in the center of the target, You will then commit to the shot and the release opens in time.

How do you shoot a release while using Dynamic Tension?

We have reached full draw and aligned the whole shooting match up with the X. Now what do you do? Well the release better go off pretty soon or you will pull the wheels off of the bow. right? With a trigger style release, usually you will need a slightly stiffer trigger than you are used to. This will let you build strong tension with you r finger on the trigger without risk of pre-fires. I allow my wrist muscles and the tendons in the back of my hand to slightly relax as I pull. This causes my hand to yield on the release. There is no real perceivable movement, but it is just enough to change the pressure on the trigger, and the shot is released. A rotational style release works in the same manner. When you commit to the shot and your tension builds allow your hand to soften or yield on the release and that is just enough to change the attitude of the release handle to make it fire.

How do you know if it is right?

This is where the mystery is revealed. If your elbow is above the plane of your shoulder, your are pushing and pulling, and there is no undue tension in your hands or arms, you have to be doing it right. Your bow will feel easier to hold, and your sight will hold tighter on the dot. If you feel like you are working too hard you are probably not doing it right. You may be over pulling. If your shot will not go off, you have lost tension. Let down and reset.

Do not over complicate the feel just push and pull. Practice this on a blank bale until you get it down. Then practice it on a target at close distances until you can forget about it and allow it to naturally happen. Then move to your normal distances and go for it.

If you need a visual aid go to www.archeryhistory.com (http://www.archeryhistory.com/) and click on “archers” at the top of the page is a video of Terry Ragsdale and Eric Hall in a shoot off in Australia 1985. Terry, in my opinion, is the model by which all form should be judged. In the video, he exhibits flawless form and perfect shot execution. Grab the 20meg file. It will take a while, but it is worth it.

George Ryals IV

[Bowzone_Mikey]

Granted .. GRIVs articles are focused to the compound shooters .... I feel this thread is evolving so lets make it about BT in general

Back-tension explained Except from Stan manual by George Ryals

The word back tension is used often when describing shot execution. Many shooters are mystified with the notion of “back tension.” For some it is this mysterious feeling you get in your back when your shoulder blades are rotated, tucked, pulled, and squeezed into just the right contorted position that enables the elusive “perfect shot”. It often feels like it requires a medical degree and a body chart to locate ambiguous muscle groups that must be flexed and pinched at just the right interval while poking at your release trigger. Ultimately, it is a confusing distraction that takes our mind off aiming, and aiming is the most important task that must be completed without distraction to complete the perfect shot. Without perfect aim, perfect form alone will not produce perfect shooting.

“Back tension” can be simplified to a basic feel. We refer to it as dynamic tension. Dynamic Tension is set up at the beginning of the draw and it is continues through the release of the arrow. We feel that it is second only to aiming as the key fundamental part of shooting form that generates accuracy and consistency. The feel that you get with Dynamic tension is the constant rearward pressure against the bow while you aim.

What is Dynamic Tension?

Dynamic Tension is a simple technique. You need to feel a balance between the solid bow arm and the pulling pressure of the release hand. The feeling should be like stretching a band between your bow hand and your release hand. This stretch increases as you commit to the shot. Most pro shooters set up their dynamic tension when they raise the bow to the target. This stages the proper muscle groups. The muscles that you use to draw the bow are the very same muscles that you use to aim the bow, and the back muscles will give you the most stability. As you reach full draw you should pull the bow into the stops and continue to apply mild pressure as you align your peep with the scope and the dot with the X. Once everything is centered and anchored in the center of the target, you will then commit to the shot, slightly increase the tension against the bow, and begin relaxing the hand through the shot. (we will explain relaxing through the shot a little later)

Proper setup and use of this tension can help you shoot longer by relieving fatigue. It will make you a more stable shooter by relieving muscle tension in the arms and hands. Dynamic tension also reduces the amount of muscle groups involved in the shot. This will diminish muscle tremors that can cause sudden misses, quick shots, and general unsteadiness.

Activating the release by relaxing through the shot

Whether you are using a triggerless Stan or one of our models that are trigger activated, the technique is the same with only minor adjustments. The art of activating the release is pretty basic. Essentially what should happen is as you pull against the bow and build dynamic tension between you and the bow, you will allow your index and middle finger to yield or soften against your pulling pressure. If you are shooting a Triggerless Stan, that yield of pressure causes the release to rotate just enough to cause it to fire giving you a complete surprise release. If you are shooting a Thumb button or an Eagle release, (which triggers with the middle finger) you will start with a heavier than normal trigger tension. Wrap your thumb or finger over the trigger and apply a tiny amount of pressure to it. As you pull and allow your index finger to yield to the pressure, the tension transfers to the button or trigger. This slight transfer of pressure as you relax your hand through the shot will cause a nice smooth surprise release.

Ultimately you are striving for a surprise release. You do not want to be concerned when it is going to fire. A perfect shot would seem something like this:
You draw the bow and squeeze into the stops. You align the peep and scope and bring the target into view. You will give it a half a beat to begin its normal motion in the center of the target (depending on experience this will be a little wobbly or very steady. Practice and conditioning will improve your hold over time.) Your sight is as steady as it ever gets and you commit to the shot. Allow your Dynamic tension to build on your release fingers through pulling into the stops. The tip of your elbow is in perfect line with the dot in your scope and it is pulling straight away. To activate the shot your index finger softens on the release and allows the handle to pivot slightly (there is very little perceivable motion here, but you can feel it) and POOF! The shot is released. You hold the form for about 3 beats for follow through and you are ready to reset. You have just shot a perfect arrow.

If your release fires too fast, you can adjust it to make it a little slower. If you feel that you have to relax too much and there is too much motion in the release body, adjust the release according to each models instructions to tweak the shot speed.

Transferring the feel to your bow

As you get used to the feel of dynamic tension and you get used to yielding through the release to activate the shot, your exercise with the shooting loop will be important. It will help you memorize the feel and commit it to muscle memory. The more automatic these motions are before you go to the bow, the more consistent your shot sequence will be.

Now that you are practiced up and you have established the feel, you will need to transfer that feel to the bow. An easy way to accomplish that is to shoot at a very close range without a target. When shooting the blank bale, it is important that you do not aim at anything, and resist the temptation to aim at your previous arrow. The point of this exercise is to acquaint yourself with the feel of shooting with your new release without the extra distraction of aiming.

Remember, these exercises can be boring and it is tempting to skip forward and begin shooting as normal, but the more time you spent here developing a broad foundation through these exercises; the more accurate you will be in the long run. Spend enough time at this stage to get your shot execution as normal and comfortable as you can. Compare the feel to the shooting string to be sure that you have it down.

Incorporating the feel into your full shot routine

Now you have the feel down pat and it is as consistent as possible. The final step is to learn to aim and commit shot execution to muscle memory and allow it to happen naturally. For many shooters, sight movement and release problems are correlated, so learning to accept sight movement and continue with great shot execution is important. One of the best ways to accomplish this is to start off shooting targets at a very close range. Set up a target and shoot a few well aimed shots at 5 yards. Be mindful of the release and be sure that the feel and speed feels the same as it does with your string and the bow on the blank bale. Once you are comfortable with this, you can step back to ten yards. If you really want to get the full use of this exercise you can shoot full games on your favorite target to build confidence and get used to the feel of the automatic release while your sight moves in the center of the target. When you feel like you have it down and your shot execution feels great, you can step back to 15 yards and repeat. Slowly stepping back and gradually getting used to accepting sight movement will help your shot execution remain consistent. As you get better and become a stronger archer, your sight movement will bet smaller and smaller and your average will rise along with your improvements.

[rollingrock]

Mikey, that's a good reading! I think the same theory could be applied to trad bow shooting, especially the part on releasing.

[greybark]

Oh sh!t...am I in trouble?:-D

I used the term "back tension" because that's all they use on tradgang. "Draw with BT" is all they talk about. So I assume that this term is the same as "draw with back or back muscle".

I think if I hold my bow with less tilting or straight, you probably will see more expansion. But I feel that type of form might not be practical for hunting. As a matter of fact, I don't lose any DL or feel overbowed. I snap shoot to gain more speed and feel more comfortable with better accuracy.

Greybark and other trad guys have taught me a lot. I just feel that I couldn't spend enough time with them!

Hey Bill , it will take time but this snap shooting will lengthen out when you see results . There are quite a few variables when accessing how to help a new archer . Bill is right as to Trad style when hunting or 3-Ding . Grant is right on stance when open ground targets are involved .
Patience is the key and a rush to judgement on several points only screw things up as most archers can only learn one thing at a time .
Grant , pointing out your students 2nd place finish to substantuate your point proves nothing as the same can be claimed by others but I know how you feel . LOL
One more thing Grant , Bill`s enthusiasm for archery is of a greater deminsion then any of us have experienced . In several months he is involved in bow design , building , testing and his friend Alex and him are now trying to set up a Bow Factory . All this were we after several years of archery are still tied up with Back Tension . LOL
Cheers

[Grantmac]

Mikey, that's a good reading! I think the same theory could be applied to trad bow shooting, especially the part on releasing.

I'd go so far as to say it should be applied to shooting any bow well. The release should always be a passive event, the result of relaxing the correct muscles while building tension in others.

Honestly you are leaving at least 1-2" of draw-length on the table with your current draw. You aren't getting into alignment and because of that you are holding the weight of the bow using muscles instead of bone support. Snap shooting doesn't add any speed into the bow, certainly not like getting another 2" of DL does. What snap shooting does do is introduce a variable into your shot that you really cannot control, it's like trying to sight in your rifle with a pocket full of different shells; never gonna happen.

There comes a point where you will realize that you are shooting too much draw weight. It might not happen right now, but the sooner it does the better off you will be in the long run. You really need to be able to do more than just pull the string back; you need to dominate the bow. The shot should always be the same just fewer shots with greater weight.
I realize you build bows, I've also spent time building selfbows. It takes a really hard look into yourself to realize that the bow you just created is too much for your abilities to shoot. For me that happened with a 80@32 yew longbow. I can shoot it and arguably with what most people would call good form. But I just couldn't ever dominate it for any number of arrows.

This is how it's supposed to look:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jz4GPxPPqe8

Trad Gang is the last hold-out of that style of shooting, but I honestly believe it's the duty of anyone who considers themselves an archer to pursue a better method. Especially if you ever intend to loose an arrow at game. The shooting I see at 3D events makes me shudder and seriously think that accuracy testing should be required to get a license.

-Grant

[rollingrock]

Grant, good read! Even though I don't agree to some of your points....I've got to run out. Talk to you guys tomorrow!

[jessbennett]

I'd go so far as to say it should be applied to shooting any bow well. The release should always be a passive event, the result of relaxing the correct muscles while building tension in others.

Honestly you are leaving at least 1-2" of draw-length on the table with your current draw. You aren't getting into alignment and because of that you are holding the weight of the bow using muscles instead of bone support. Snap shooting doesn't add any speed into the bow, certainly not like getting another 2" of DL does. What snap shooting does do is introduce a variable into your shot that you really cannot control, it's like trying to sight in your rifle with a pocket full of different shells; never gonna happen.

There comes a point where you will realize that you are shooting too much draw weight. It might not happen right now, but the sooner it does the better off you will be in the long run. You really need to be able to do more than just pull the string back; you need to dominate the bow. The shot should always be the same just fewer shots with greater weight.
I realize you build bows, I've also spent time building selfbows. It takes a really hard look into yourself to realize that the bow you just created is too much for your abilities to shoot. For me that happened with a 80@32 yew longbow. I can shoot it and arguably with what most people would call good form. But I just couldn't ever dominate it for any number of arrows.

This is how it's supposed to look:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jz4GPxPPqe8

Trad Gang is the last hold-out of that style of shooting, but I honestly believe it's the duty of anyone who considers themselves an archer to pursue a better method. Especially if you ever intend to loose an arrow at game. The shooting I see at 3D events makes me shudder and seriously think that accuracy testing should be required to get a license.

-Grant

wow a true expert in your own mind............... its guys like you that cause alot of beginners to just walk away......

[greybark]

Hey Grant , your statement Quote " The shooting I see at 3-D events makes me shudder and seriously think that accuracy testing should be required to get a license " .
Most of the 3-D Archers that make you Shudder are purely recreational and do not hunt , some have just taken up archery , some archers are past and current Champions who don`t take things so serious and just enjoy the comradship and lastly the targets have to be placed as such to challenge all .
Your statement makes me shudder as to its Condescending and arrogance .
Cheers

[Islander]

Grant.....you are definitely in a class all of your own. At the shoot in Duncan did you not notice there was only one recurve category.....Recurve unaided. Should have been a traditional recurve class. So we had 20-30 traddies and one stringwalker.....what the hell did you expect? You brag about your friend/student longbow shooter that won second place in his first ever 3D.....was he stringwalking too?

[jessbennett]

i guess we should all understand that some people start out as perfect and experts i suppose..... of course there is somewhat of a "right" and "wrong" way to do things, but who are we to judge what works for someone? we all do different things that "work" for us. its all about repetition and forming a routine that works consistently for you. all i can say, is do what works for ya, enjoy it, and most of all, have fun. challenge yourself first instead of trying to challenge others. guaranteed the rest will come.

[Midland]

X2, This thread is amazing, all off a 4 second video


Hey Grant , your statement Quote " The shooting I see at 3-D events makes me shudder and seriously think that accuracy
testing should be required to get a license " .
Most of the 3-D Archers that make you Shudder are purely recreational and do not hunt , some have just taken up archery , some archers are past and current Champions who don`t take things so serious and just enjoy the comradship and lastly the targets have to be placed as such to challenge all .
Your statement makes me shudder as to its Condescending and arrogance .
Cheers

[Grantmac]

i guess we should all understand that some people start out as perfect and experts i suppose..... of course there is somewhat of a "right" and "wrong" way to do things, but who are we to judge what works for someone? we all do different things that "work" for us. its all about repetition and forming a routine that works consistently for you. all i can say, is do what works for ya, enjoy it, and most of all, have fun. challenge yourself first instead of trying to challenge others. guaranteed the rest will come.

Actually I spent years listening to the local "experts" and shooting very poorly, never even placed in a local 3D. It wasn't until I moved out of the area and to a place where I was able to shoot with nationally (USA) competitive shooters that I saw what you can really do with a stick and string. It took a year after that point just to rid myself of all the bad habits that I should never have developed in the first place. Habits I see very clearly in this video and I wouldn't want anyone to get stuck with as some never get over them.
I'm all for encouraging beginners, but along with that should be an emphasis on developing good shooting technique. I find it very disappointing that we seem to have a traditional bowhunting organization in BC who place no emphasis on shooting a bow accurately, at least judging by the membership's comments on here.

My friend shooting longbow was using 3-under and a high anchor, a really good technique. I've worked with him a little on form and he's spent a lot of time studying the best barebow shooters technique. Given that he's only been shooting for a few months it really goes to show you what a beginner is capable of if they take the right approach and have a little guidance.

[greybark]

Hey Grant , your judgement that the TBBC , United Bowhunters of BC and the BCAA place no emphasis on bow accuracy is just that "Your judgement"and is totaly wrong . . As a point of interest the TBBC Chs /Rondevous has wonderful trophys for shooting excellence as well as emphasing the spirit of Roundevous .
Again making judgements from a few membership comments is not recommended.

[Grantmac]

Hey Grant , your judgement that the TBBC , United Bowhunters of BC and the BCAA place no emphasis on bow accuracy is just that "Your judgement"and is totaly wrong . . As a point of interest the TBBC Chs /Rondevous has wonderful trophys for shooting excellence as well as emphasing the spirit of Roundevous .
Again making judgements from a few membership comments is not recommended.

Actually it was the President of the TBBC and the comments made in person were NOT flattering on the organization.

Since the OP of the thread has been to the TBBC championship you would think he would have been exposed to the best Trad shooters in BC and they would have been able to given him a good start towards shooting well.

[rollingrock]

Excuse me, Grant, we attended the event not to improve accuracy but to enjoy the gathering. Simply meeting all these wonderful people and shooting at the 3D targets made us a wonderful trip, and we had a blast. I think I can shoot well when I want to...wait for me to be retired and shoot the cr@p out of the 3D target in my backyard. :mrgreen:

[Islander]

Also Grant......we are traditional and don't have a recurve/unaided class and don't teach string walking.

[greybark]

Hey Grant , obvious that you have a thing against the Trad shooters of BC . All of us have just met Bill and Alex and you expect us to turn these two inside out in a matter of weeks . Hell the Olympics are years away give us a few months at least .
You have the earned skills in your venue don`t expect that everyone wants the same , most of us want to do well but not at the expence of enjoyment .
Years ago when just starting archery I shot in several Field events and remember two things , I did OK but noticed that and there was very little laughter on the course , 3-D`s were more enjoyable to me and taught me enough to be a very sucessful bowhunter and have a trophy case that includes a Cdn Nat Gold and Silver Medal . I only point this out to counter your "Must Have" perfect form is not a must but helpful .
You refer to the "WE "Trad Archers of BC , are you a member of the TBBC , United Bowhunter of BC or the BCAA ?
Cheers

[Onesock]

Grant-could you give us a run down on your list of animals taken with your "traditional" bow please? Thanks

[Grantmac]

Grant-could you give us a run down on your list of animals taken with your "traditional" bow please? Thanks

Took a nice little 4-point at 8yds from a natural blind down in Washington fall before last, it was on the property I was renting and I had them well patterned. That was with my 55# Shakespear Mawamba which it's a little shorter then I like to shoot but works well from a blind.

I've been deployed with the Navy every season for the 5 years previous to that and then last year as well so no big game hunting those years. Chase the rabbits in the early spring if I'm home though, lots of fun shots to make on them. Usually take one my selfbows for that as the shots are so close that accuracy doesn't really matter.

Actually everything I've killed with a bow has been under 15yds so maybe you guys are right, you really don't have to be that accurate to kill things. But I've also helped butcher a few deer with healed injuries caused by broadheads so clearly not everyone is sticking to their effective range. I've also seen enough people make really poor hits at 3D when the target was NOT a challenging presentation.
Now that I'm apartment dwelling I'm giving-up on big game until I have a house with a garage again. Can't say it really bothers me too much as I am not that into killing, just like the meat it produces and I can get venison when I want it.

I had the opportunity to shoot what I would call the "perfect" 3D down in Washington fall before last. Scoring was as follows:
10=10
8=8
5=-10
You could choose to shoot or not, you could also choose to move up or back a peg for half or double points (on the good hits, still -10 for the bad ones). Real wake-up call for a lot of people, not many of the "Trad" guys posted scores and those which did were lucky to break even. It wasn't a tough course and the close pegs were VERY close.

Then again I'm GOOD at target stuff, but I'm a crap hunter ;)
But I shoot all my bows with the same form, the shot is the shot. I'm also VERY cautious about which shots I'm willing to take on animals, probably too much.

-Grant

[greybark]

Hey Grant , that makes two questions in a row that you did not answer . I take that you MISSED them . (pun intended) . LOL
You slam other bowhunters then brag how good of an archer you are . Your all Hat and no Cattle....
Cheers

[Onesock]

Actually the OP was exposed to the some of the best traditional BOWHUNTERS in BC and not a bunch of target archers. Big difference between target archers and bowhunters. Thank God! This 3-D thing is a game for bowhunters but target archers live for this.

[The Hermit]

I find most 3-D shoots have the trad pins way too far back for my skill level. I like the rules that you can move up and take 1/2 scores and scoring a -10 for shots out of the 10 and 8 rings! I'd also like to implement a -10 penalty for actually taking shots that at positioned at very low percentage angles - a note attached to a tree near the target would identify the "trap" targets! If its supposed to be practice for hunting I think we should set the courses up to represent real hunting situations as much as possible. I think sometimes in order to make the course challenging for the really good shots we inadvertently give new bowhunters the wrong message. This is not to suggest that setting the course with lots of difficulty wrong headed in itself - love the kneeling, stretched, uphill/downhill, through the trees tightly etc.

The last few shoots I've been on I've just ignored the pins on those shots and moved up or to the side giving myself a challenging but "ethical" shot to take... no I don't enter my scores for the prizes. I find most 3-D shoots have the trad pins way too far back for my skill level so am not competitive anyway!

All that being said... shooting 3-D courses is good practice but it isn't really like hunting live game at the end of the day.

[Onesock]

Don't remember the last time a 3-D target jumped my string. Matter of fact I have never never ever spooked a 3-D target.

[The Hermit]

Don't remember the last time a 3-D target jumped my string. Matter of fact I have never never ever spooked a 3-D target.



I call BS ... they all see you coming and are afeared!