Help!! Tracking Advice!!!

[Gunner Staal]

So yesterday I took out a great friend and rookie hunter on his first ever hunt. Wouldn't you know we came across the nicest bear I've ever laid eyes on. After a 300 yard stalk, he cracked a shot at 60 yards from a stable prone position. I stayed back and filmed but didn't get the shot or the bear as it bolted for the thick bush. I saw the bear enter and it didn't look in any major distress but my buddy swears he made a good shot. I searched for hours for blood.....nothing......hair......nothing. He just smoke bombed into thick, thick bush and I had no clue which way to go. I tried everything and couldn't find a single sign. I tested the rifle and it was dead on. I bow hunt and expect animals to bolt but this was a .338 at 60 yards broadside. I would expect that a good shot would have shown something. I realize a clean miss is very likely but it's tearing me up thinking that this phenomenal bear is piled up dead and wasted. Anyone have any experience to share? I know they don't bleed like they do with the bow but I would expect at least a drop? I'm just trying to put my mind at rest. I hope nothing more than to go back to the same spot again this weekend and see this boar again. He was there every night for a week straight. Either way I guess he will probably keep his ass off that patch of grass. Frustrated.

Gunner

[604redneck]

where do u live?

[The Dawg]

I've shot 2 bears inside of 100 yards with my 338 and they didn't even take a step.

Im betting a clean miss.

[604redneck]

I've shot 2 bears inside of 100 yards with my 338 and they didn't even take a step.

Im betting a clean miss.
really? way to encourage him to look for a potentially wounded or dead bear. Ive watched bears take multiple .338 rounds and make it a 100 yards but i guess if hes as much of a pro as you he drops ever animal in 1 shot

[BCbillies]

I've done the same thing at the same distance with a 375. It's most likely a clean miss.

[Gunner Staal]

Thanks BC. I will send you a PM and you will know exactly where I was. It was an absolute brute. Problem is I've been on a big Grizz in the exact area for four nights in a row now. I'm torn between going in tomorrow with my dog and searching all day and ruining my Grizz.....or convincing myself Jeff just plain missed and forgetting about it. There's not a worse feeling in all of hunting than not knowing for sure.


I've done the same thing at the same distance with a 375. It's most likely a clean miss.

[Gunner Staal]

Terrace area


where do u live?

[troutseeker]

Sounds like a miss to me. I know you Gunner and I know you looked hard for signs. No fur fat of blood at all at the spot the bear was shot?

Probably boar fever...:mrgreen:

[The Dawg]

really? way to encourage him to look for a potentially wounded or dead bear. Ive watched bears take multiple .338 rounds and make it a 100 yards but i guess if hes as much of a pro as you he drops ever animal in 1 shot


He watched the whole thing- no reaction from the bear from a hit, no hair, no blood, no bone.
He spent time looking for anything showing it.

Should he spend days attempting to find something that has shown 0 sign at all of a hit?

A 338 hitting a bear at 60 yards is going to show some sign of being shot.

He asked for an opinion. I gave mine.

Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean much to me.

Now go get some sleep, you're sounding rather Hbc saint

[LYKTOHUNT]

I think by now if he did hit it and it died there would be Ravens making a bunch of noise on it by now,if it is dead the birds will lead you to it and at least you would know, my guess is its a miss and you may see him again on all fours

[boxhitch]

He watched the whole thing- no reaction from the bear from a hit,Thats not what was stated

GS , you did your due diligence , and depending on your confidence in the shooters ability , , you have to decide if it was enough effort and you can sleep well.
Tough lesson for a new hunter , but if he has some regrets it will make him better in the future........ maybe

[GoatGuy]

I would take a dog in there and have a look - you never know, tracked a few of em where we only found a drop or two of blood.

[Ambush]

If the bear is dead, you may find your grizzly in the same spot.

[Big Lew]

If the bear is dead, you may find your grizzly in the same spot.

My thoughts as well....if you have a dog that's likely to track it, give it a try.

[OOBuck]

God made bear out of Kevlar! You need to tip them over by nocking out one of the front shoulders.

[steel_ram]

Follow your gut feeling. They can go a ways even after being hit with a super magnum. That stated, they usually show some sign of being hit or there is usually some fur or flesh.

[biggyun68]

Was there any brush in the way of the shot? You would not see it on the scope but I have taken shots in close with deer and have missed because of deflections off of brush. It surprisingly does not need to be that thick a piece of brush to deflect.

[proguide66]

I shot a monster spring bear once , drilled him right in the ribs off his elbow. We found 2 single drops of blood and he went about 100 yrds and 'tried' to stuff himself under a root ball...both lungs filling. We 'thought' a miss when seeing no blood , pushed on and heres a 'dog sized' black fur patch visible to us...pulle him out , 7.7 bear!

just sayin...:)

[Mr. Dean]

Bears can be CrAzY tough and if the shooter says the shot was good (he'd know), I'd be inclined to believe him. Especially when it sounds like the conditions were ideal for letting one off.

[M.Dean]

My Son fired at a real nice sized Bear a few years ago, it was about 75 yards away, he had his 338 Tikka with 250 grn Barnes X I think. I filmed the whole thing, when he fired the Bear went crazy!!! It ran in circles, about 5 or 6 times, my Son yelled at me" Should I shoot again"? And like a stupid arm chair coach, I said No, it's hit real hard, it won't go far! Well, my Son and two other guys that happened along looked for about 2 hours, nothing! We went back to the house, regrouped, and then my Son, and my oldest Son and Son in Law went back up and looked for the rest of the day, he'd fired at it around 9 in the morning. No blood, no hair, no tracks to follow and no Bear! They spent the next morning searching for it, I though it should be laying under a log or in a real thick brush pile all bled out, but nothing! I know he hit the Bear, we watched that video about 20 times, and we all agreed the Bear was hit hard with a real big gun, but simply didn't want to become a Bear Skin rug! I went back to the area for the next week or so looking for crows, but nothing again! It's a sad fact of hunting, and there's not a lot of guys out there who've killed every animal they've fired at. All's you guys can do is keep looking until your positive that the Bear is not going to be found, yes it sucks, but like I said, it's the dark side of the sport. Your Buddy may have missed the Bear, hopefully thats what happened, yet he may have hit it and the Bears fur plugged the wound, I've seen that quite a few times with Deer and Moose, so there's no blood trail to follow. The Bear may have found some place to lay down and die and never be found, it happens to the best Hunters out there, so don't be to hard on your selves, put your time in searching for it, then, if you find nothing hope the shot was a clean miss! Good Luck!

[lip_ripper00]

I would wonder, at 60 yds would the bullet have expanded? possably a through and through and with a thick coat, blood my not be visable righ away?

[srupp]

hmmm shooting bears and showing no reaction other than running does happen.I have shot most of my black bears with the .270 and 150 grain ammo. had one or 2 examples like yours..However I did shoot a large black bear at pretty short range with the .338 magnum shooting 225 Barnes bullets.On the shot the bear just wheeled and headed out at warped speed. No indication of being hit, no blood, no hair, bear didn't go down, didn't stagger..didn't seem to react at all. I spent some time looking for the sign I KNEW should be there..the ONLY sign was the bears tracks heading away and digging in ..so I knew I wasn't sleep shooting a phantom bear .I sat and realized I had not even heard the bullet strike the bear no "whoomp" I was thinging what the hell??? did I indeed miss this bear completely??I have had numerous examples of bears being hard to track...but I had some sign..here nothing .So I marked the location from where I shot, and where I figured the bear was and marked that spot..it was in a cut block with huge cedars black from having been burned..so I headed slowly where the tracks went ..I searched for not too long..and there was the bear dead in a small puddle of water...never did find blood or hair on the way to the bear..nothing just found the bear..

Several other times the bears have tucked under logs or in tree wells under low hanging branches, or expired in thick alder...heavy spring hair and hide and fat sometimes makes for limited blood on some terrain almost impossible to find..and sometimes they don't react...with what you have said and what I have seen I indeed feel that the bear was shot...too close..rifle on track..no reaction and no blood/hair does not mean no bear...just cant find the sign...

steven

[Mr. Dean]

I would wonder, at 60 yds would the bullet have expanded? possably a through and through and with a thick coat, blood my not be visable righ away?

That would depend on the bullet.


I've had close quarter shots using partitions and all I got was pencil holes in-n-out.
BarnesX open up at twenty feet - That I know.

[Wade]

Could it be possible that maybe your friend was nervous and shaky? Was the whole bear visible when your friend took the shot? Is the rifle zeroed in for 200 yards? That could be a big difference from 60 yards. Good luck with this

[Hunt-4-Life]

I shot a black bear a few years ago in late November in the snow. Same sort of thing, I was prone at about 80 yards and was pretty sure I had made a good hit. There was next to no blood on the snow, but thd bear had piled up dead before he'd gone 30 yards. Even dead he had barely started to leak. It wasn't till we started to drag him out that blood really started to run out of him. Sounds like the close shot, good shooting rifle, good shooting position and your shooter saying he hit him all add up to at least one good long day of trying to track him. Good luck!

Cheers!

[Salty]

Was there any brush in the way of the shot? You would not see it on the scope but I have taken shots in close with deer and have missed because of deflections off of brush. It surprisingly does not need to be that thick a piece of brush to deflect.

That's what I was thinking especially since the shooter was prone so the bullet path close to the ground. I'd go back and find exactually where he took the shot and look for what brush would be in the way and if see if there's anything that's freshly pruned.

[1899]

Was he using Barnes bullets?

[lip_ripper00]

That would depend on the bullet.


I've had close quarter shots using partitions and all I got was pencil holes in-n-out.
BarnesX open up at twenty feet - That I know.


I beg to differ, shot a bull @ 50yds with a 168gr TSX, he stood looked at me and walked down the bank in to the swamp. I knew I hit him so left him for 30 min, best move. He did not feel threatend but did manage to walk 200 yds before he ran out of breath, pencil hole in and out.

[Ron.C]

That would depend on the bullet.


I've had close quarter shots using partitions and all I got was pencil holes in-n-out.
BarnesX open up at twenty feet - That I know.

this is why I stopped using the noslers I was using. They were drilling straight through with little expansion at close range.
Switched to Barnes are very reliable. Bullet below taken from a whitetail shot at 30 yards. As it pertains to this thread, I have seen bears shot that exhibited little reaction beside running away. And in two cases, no blood to speak of. One of those bears was treed by my dog and shot, the other was found dead 200m away. But Nothing is perfect and I'm sure there are circumstances where any bullet has failed.
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/barnes_250gr_TEZ.jpg

[1899]

What Noslers are you guys using that "pencil through"? This is exactly the opposite of anything I have ever seen with a Partition. I have shot game as light as 100lb (or less) Sitka Blacktails and Columbia Blacktails with 175gr Partitions out of a 7mm RM from close to far, and not a single one "penciled" through. Small holes in and out are not uncommon with Partitions because the front end opens up, messes stuff up, and then the back end pushed right through.

On the other hand I have had two bad experiences with Barnes 185gr TTSX out of a .338 WM, which led me to do some testing. The results:


Compare the 185gr TTSX and the 250gr Partition, fired from the same rifle, the same day and into the same media at 200 yards. The TTSX hardly opened up...
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/1899/338bullets2jpg.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/1899/338bulletsjpg.jpg

[scott_karana]

What Noslers are you guys using that "pencil through"? This is exactly the opposite of anything I have ever seen with a Partition. I have shot game as light as 100lb (or less) Sitka Blacktails and Columbia Blacktails with 175gr Partitions out of a 7mm RM from close to far, and not a single one "penciled" through. Small holes in and out are not uncommon with Partitions because the front end opens up, messes stuff up, and then the back end pushed right through.

On the other hand I have had two bad experiences with Barnes 185gr TTSX out of a .338 WM, which led me to do some testing. The results:


Compare the 185gr TTSX and the 250gr Partition, fired from the same rifle, the same day and into the same media at 200 yards. The TTSX hardly opened up...

<snip>
Do you not think the huge weight difference might have made a difference? :twisted:

[1899]

Do you not think the huge weight difference might have made a difference? :twisted:

In what? The amount the bullet opened up? Either the bullet expands well or it doesn't. Weight has nothing to do with it.

[scott_karana]

Weight has nothing to do with it.Keep telling yourself that if you like.

[1899]

Keep telling yourself that if you like.

Why didn't you keep your post as it was instead of editing it? Why not explain to me what difference a bullet's weight makes to whether the bullet expands properly or not? I am curious to read your views on the matter.

[steel_ram]

What Noslers are you guys using that "pencil through"? This is exactly the opposite of anything I have ever seen with a Partition. I have shot game as light as 100lb (or less) Sitka Blacktails and Columbia Blacktails with 175gr Partitions out of a 7mm RM from close to far, and not a single one "penciled" through. Small holes in and out are not uncommon with Partitions because the front end opens up, messes stuff up, and then the back end pushed right through.


X2 Noslers will peel back to the partition at moderate velocities but the rest of the core, ~60% of the weight, plus the curled 'petals' remains reliably and keeps pushing through.

[scott_karana]

Why didn't you keep your post as it was instead of editing it? Why not explain to me what difference a bullet's weight makes to whether the bullet expands properly or not? I am curious to read your views on the matter.
By all means.

Considering you've fired a lighter round out of the same rifle, it's safe to assume that the velocity (muzzle and impact) are noticeably higher. A quick look at ballistics tables seems to confirm this:

I plugged a .338 cal 185g TTSX (BC .432 (http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/components/rifle/tipped-tsx-bullet/)) into http://gundata.org/ballistic-calculator/, and gave it the muzzle velocity of 3100fps, compared to the Nosler 250g's 2800 fps muzzle velocity, since I don't have proper velocity tables with me. (Had to base it on forum posts, yeesh)

At 200 yards, both have nearly identical energies (2921 vs 2913) but the velocities are noticeably different (2294 vs 2663 fps, 16% greater for the TTSX).

The core of my argument is this: do you not think that velocity correlates in some way to expansion? I have a feeling that 250g TTSX and 250g Partitions would be pretty similar.

Your "experiment" is vague, which makes it suspicious in my mind.
I'm happy to be proven wrong! I'm just a skeptical type. :)
(There are lots of other uncontrolled variables too. Do your rifle and twist rate work well with 185gr, for example? Are different bullet weights designed for different expansion rates?)


In addition, if the bullets exited the other side of your undisclosed "medium" before being retrieved, the higher-velocity bullet would have spent less time inside the medium before exiting, thus stopping its expansion.

A faster bullet = less time spent inside of game, so this is a fairly realistic assumption.

[1899]

By all means.

Considering you've fired a lighter round out of the same rifle, it's safe to assume that the velocity (muzzle and impact) are noticeably higher. A quick look at ballistics tables seems to confirm this:

I plugged a .338 cal 185g TTSX (BC .432 (http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/components/rifle/tipped-tsx-bullet/)) into http://gundata.org/ballistic-calculator/, and gave it the muzzle velocity of 3100fps, compared to the Nosler 250g's 2800 fps muzzle velocity, since I don't have proper velocity tables with me. (Had to base it on forum posts, yeesh)

At 200 yards, both have nearly identical energies (2921 vs 2913) but the velocities are noticeably different (2294 vs 2663 fps).

The core of my argument is this: do you not think that velocity correlates in some way to expansion?
Your "experiment" is vague, which makes it suspicious in my mind.
I'm happy to be proven wrong! I'm just a skeptical type. :)



In addition, if the bullets exited the other side of your undisclosed "medium" before being retrieved, the higher-velocity bullet would have spent less time inside the medium before exiting, thus stopping its expansion.

A faster bullet = less time spent inside of game, so this is a fairly realistic assumption.

The bullet should start expanding within a very short distance of entering media - a soaked block of old pine in this instance. As long as the velocity is within the recommended range, the bullet ought to expand. I did not chronograph the 185gr TTSX load, but it was a max charge of IMR4350, IIRC. The 250gr Partition load was hefty charge of H4831SC. Both of the bullets were within their design velocity for proper expansion.

Both of the bullets remained in the media, and the 185gr TTSX penetrated a bit further - not surprising given it hardly expanded and as such had little frontal resistance.

Velocity does correlate to expansion, but weight does not. As I said, both of the bullets were within their design velocity for proper expansion, so velocity is not an issue either.


And with respect to:
A faster bullet = less time spent inside of game, so this is a fairly realistic assumption

Remember that a faster bullet will also have greater forces and strain imparted upon it, and therefore will initiate expansion faster than a slower bullet. Consider the extremes of bullet XYZ needing between 2000fps and 3000fps to expand. One impact is at 3200 fps and one is at 1800fps. The faster bullet may very well quickly come apart and have relatively shallow penetration while the slower bullet will fail to expand and have deep penetration due to it acting like a non-expanding (FMJ) bullet. Which is kind of what happened in the above noted test EXCEPT that the TTSX wasn't going slowly at all, therefore it SHOULD have expanded.

[scott_karana]

The bullet should start expanding within a very short distance of entering media - a soaked block of old pine in this instance. As long as the velocity is within the recommended range, the bullet ought to expand. I did not chronograph the 185gr TTSX load, but it was a max charge of IMR4350, IIRC. The 250gr Partition load was hefty charge of H4831SC. Both of the bullets were within their design velocity for proper expansion.

Both of the bullets remained in the media, and the 185gr TTSX penetrated a bit further - not surprising given it hardly expanded and as such had little frontal resistance.

Velocity does correlate to expansion, but weight does not. As I said, both of the bullets were within their design velocity for proper expansion, so velocity is not an issue either.
That sounds fair, if it was indeed within its designed velocity. I've got no idea whether that's the case or not but I'll take your word for it :)
I merely took the correlation of weight to velocity and ran with it.



And with respect to:
A faster bullet = less time spent inside of game, so this is a fairly realistic assumption

Remember that a faster bullet will also have greater forces and strain imparted upon it, and therefore will initiate expansion faster than a slower bullet. Consider the extremes of bullet XYZ needing between 2000fps and 3000fps to expand. One impact is at 3200 fps and one is at 1800fps. The faster bullet may very well quickly come apart and have relatively shallow penetration while the slower bullet will fail to expand and have deep penetration due to it acting like a non-expanding (FMJ) bullet. Which is kind of what happened in the above noted test EXCEPT that the TTSX wasn't going slowly at all, therefore it SHOULD have expanded.
I don't know a lot about external ballistics, so it was only a guess on my part that a faster bullet might not have as much time to expand, compared to the rate of expansion.
Thanks for the patience! I know I can come across a bit combative ;)

I'm still curious whether a 250gr TTSX would have been more of an apple-to-apples comparison :-D

For everyone else, sorry for the off-topic!

[Mr. Dean]

I beg to differ, shot a bull @ 50yds with a 168gr TSX, he stood looked at me and walked down the bank in to the swamp. I knew I hit him so left him for 30 min, best move. He did not feel threatend but did manage to walk 200 yds before he ran out of breath, pencil hole in and out.


I blew a mature buck @ 20 FEET and had perfect expansion w/ a 30 cal, 180gr Barnes... Go figure.


So lets say anything is possible when it comes to bullets and lets get back to the point of the thread. :mrgreen:

[1899]

I blew a mature buck @ 20 FEET .... :mrgreen:


Wow. I guess I shouldn't judge.... :tongue:

[CraigOC]

Any update on the track? The ballistics phillosophising is great but what about the bear?

[tomahawk]

Getting back on track to the question at hand, I'm not saying it is hit but a bear that is hit can show little or no reaction to the bullet and with its long thick winter coat still on it will take a lot of time sometimes to show any blood as it conjeals in the hair as it leaks out the hole. Never say never, anything is possible.

[RiverOtter]

Back on topic....

What part of the bear was the shooter actually trying to hit?

While my gut is telling me clean miss, a prone shot at 60 yards is a slam dunk, or at least should be.
If he smacked the bear a little high or too far back, that could also explain the lack of blood and missing bear.

[srupp]

hmmm steady shot @ 60 yards...chances are better than not he hit it...my instinct says he did...Houdini bear is out there..expired...

Steven

[redthorn]

I would guess hit as well. Last bear I shot took a broadhead and arrow through the lungs and out the other side. I saw and heard the arrow go in. And I found the bloody arrow stuck in a log on the other side of where he was standing. But he just started ambling off further into the cedars. He went 100yds, and I tracked him by his footprints. The only sign I found along his tracks was 2 tiny drops of blood. But there he was, stone dead.

As stated by others, the fat and hair is dense on some of these. And if the lungs are collapsed, there is a lot of room to bleed out internally. And if you nick the diaphragm, then there is even more room and less pressure to bleed to the outside. My bears blood drops came as drips from his nose, not gushes from the puncture.

[Mr. Dean]

The sound of it being hit wasn't heard by the OP but me is thinking that because the shot was a close one, it may have been indiscernible and masked over with the rapport from the rifle.

[Gunner Staal]

Well I was back out the last two days and still nothing. No fresh sign that he was back either. No birds......although its so thick I doubt they would find it......and no bears. I'm officially calling it. I've been torn apart by brush and bugs and have probably ruined my chance at the Grizz that was hanging around but I know it was right to keep trying. I will post the video of the bear right before the shot and you will understand why I worked so hard to find him. The video is pretty awesome and this is a pig of a Blackbear. Please don't be critical of the hunter in the video. Although it looks as though he has an easy shot that he doesn't take it, his angle is much different because he is prone and there is a small hump in the ground that he had to shoot over. I'm 300 yards away on full zoom so it makes it look like the bear is literally going to walk on him. All in all it's a great learning experience for new guys and we have talked about what could have been done differently. All in all, sometimes things go sideways, buck fever sets in and even though we all like to think we're marksmen.....you just plain shank one. Thanks for the tips and advice. Sorry this one doesn't have a happy ending.

[1899]

Well I was back out the last two days and still nothing. No fresh sign that he was back either. No birds......although its so thick I doubt they would find it......and no bears. I'm officially calling it. I've been torn apart by brush and bugs and have probably ruined my chance at the Grizz that was hanging around but I know it was right to keep trying. I will post the video of the bear right before the shot and you will understand why I worked so hard to find him. The video is pretty awesome and this is a pig of a Blackbear. Please don't be critical of the hunter in the video. Although it looks as though he has an easy shot that he doesn't take it, his angle is much different because he is prone and there is a small hump in the ground that he had to shoot over. I'm 300 yards away on full zoom so it makes it look like the bear is literally going to walk on him. All in all it's a great learning experience for new guys and we have talked about what could have been done differently. All in all, sometimes things go sideways, buck fever sets in and even though we all like to think we're marksmen.....you just plain shank one. Thanks for the tips and advice. Sorry this one doesn't have a happy ending.

Anyone who says they haven't missed or screwed up is either lying or hasn't hunted very much. Tell your buddy to keep his chin up.

[srupp]

goo ethical effort..well done..now go get that G bear..sometimes animlas unfortunately get away...all you can do is try your best..cheers Steven

[Elkhound]

sorry you didnt find what you were looking for.

Not much to say here but my 7fter on the coast a few years back was 40yd shot using 225gr TSX out of my .338wm Bear went 10yrds to the timber...disappeared. I found him 80yrds in the thick crap. I found no blood at all until about 60yrds in.