For discussion......

[gcreek]

Copied this from a ranching forum I belong to that copied it from a hunting site.

I know these rams are more or less pets but do you think they should be utilized. Either by auctioned hunts or govt. auction for heads to bring dollars for wildlife?

http://forums.bowsite.com/TF/bgforums/thread.cfm?threadid=393929&forum=12

[dana]

Why do some hunters think it is a shame these rams died of old age??? Not every big critter needs to be killed by the hands of a rich hunter that can't hunt his way out of a paper bag and has to be taken by the hand to actual kill a tame animal. In my mind, I'd rather see these critters die the way they currently are.

[gcreek]

I tend to enjoy seeing living ungulates better myself but when one of my cows or bulls has outlived it's usefulness here there is one last stop for it.


A lot of possible dollars in those photos.

[boxhitch]

They were utilized.
You can bet studs like those provided lots of entertainment for ewe to enjoy.
They are part of the wilderness wonders and appreciated by those that view them

Why does it have to be about the dollars ? :roll:

[schilly101]

Why do some hunters think it is a shame these rams died of old age??? Not every big critter needs to be killed by the hands of a rich hunter that can't hunt his way out of a paper bag and has to be taken by the hand to actual kill a tame animal. In my mind, I'd rather see these critters die the way they currently are.
Smartest thing ive heard all day!

[frenchbar]

They were utilized.
You can bet studs like those provided lots of entertainment for ewe to enjoy.
They are part of the wilderness wonders and appreciated by those that view them exactly ..no need to sell them off ..let nature take its course ..

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Fore the most part natures death is alot more painful and gruesome. I say sell them off for conservation.

[shallowH2O]

Why do some hunters think it is a shame these rams died of old age??? Not every big critter needs to be killed by the hands of a rich hunter that can't hunt his way out of a paper bag and has to be taken by the hand to actual kill a tame animal. In my mind, I'd rather see these critters die the way they currently are.

i couldnt agree more

[Hunt-4-Life]

Nice to see genetics like that for sure.

[Ambush]

Are we talking about selling them before they die or after?

[panhead]

How about letting nature take it's course and then sell them off. What would something like that be worth?
Always figured sheep producers were raising the wrong type of sheep ...

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Behind every Smart Phone is a Dummy.

[boxhitch]

alot more painful and gruesomeback to humanizing wildlife , sounds Disney-ish
gruesome , cruel but it is nature.
No worse than a wasp biting the head of a live horsefly

[gcreek]

Are we talking about selling them before they die or after?

Either, or. Somewhere it says the Game Branch is reluctant to sell any they've found.

[gcreek]

How about letting nature take it's course and then sell them off. What would something like that be worth?
Always figured sheep producers were raising the wrong type of sheep ...

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Behind every Smart Phone is a Dummy.

I'm guessing that most of those heads pictured are worth in excess of $100,000.

[adriaticum]

Why do some hunters think it is a shame these rams died of old age??? Not every big critter needs to be killed by the hands of a rich hunter that can't hunt his way out of a paper bag and has to be taken by the hand to actual kill a tame animal. In my mind, I'd rather see these critters die the way they currently are.

Amen........

[Roughneck Country]

I'm guessing that most of those heads pictured are worth in excess of $100,000.

If they were alive they would be worth ~$250K for a hunt I think that is what the ministers tag goes for anyway. I don't think the found heads are worth near as much. If you look on ebay some pretty big stone and big horn heads go for ~$2K I would guess a massive cadomine head would go for a little more but would mean nothing as a trophy for any hunter, it would be more likly that a store like Cabellas would buy one for a mount in their store. A record book head although great to look at and dream about is worth a hill of beans unless you are the one that shot the ram. just my 2cents

[RiverOtter]

Not that I condone selling off wildlife to the highest bidder, per se, but once an old ram is past the point of breeding all he is doing is eating food that could/would help the next generation through the winter....

Not that I mind nature following its course, as it has since the dawn of time, but conservation is about harvesting some, while conserving a healthy population. If the money actually goes towards the betterment of the species, through buying up habitat and controlled burns etc, I don't see a down side.

[quadrakid]

Governments tend to think of things stricly in monetary terms,as if everything in nature be it rock, plant or animal is to be viewed in terms of its monetary value. I,d certainly hope most of you would not.

[just hunt]

Were they all found in the same year?

[budismyhorse]

Gcreek..what's to discuss? The rams in question are hunted if they wander off the property.... And some do (sphinx creek beast of a few years ago). As well, the Alberta govt tag gets auctioned off each year and a cado ram usually gets tagged. Current world record was killed that way......

Or are you strictly talking about the skulls from winter killed sheep?

[dana]

Not that I condone selling off wildlife to the highest bidder, per se, but once an old ram is past the point of breeding all he is doing is eating food that could/would help the next generation through the winter....

Not that I mind nature following its course, as it has since the dawn of time, but conservation is about harvesting some, while conserving a healthy population. If the money actually goes towards the betterment of the species, through buying up habitat and controlled burns etc, I don't see a down side.

When you have a bunch of monster rams living in the same area that reach such old ages, it is a sign you have an unbelievable herd. As a matter of fact, it could be argued there isn't really another place on earth that produces so many crankers. So I don't buy the argument that they need to be killed for conservation's sake.

The more tags that they auction off means the less rams that actually could reach ripe old ages which means the tags sell for way less which means you would have to pimp out more tags which means the quality suffers even more. Right now it is a very special place. Would hate to see that specialness lost due to the greed of some.

[gcreek]

Gcreek..what's to discuss? The rams in question are hunted if they wander off the property.... And some do (sphinx creek beast of a few years ago). As well, the Alberta govt tag gets auctioned off each year and a cado ram usually gets tagged. Current world record was killed that way......

Or are you strictly talking about the skulls from winter killed sheep?

I was referring to both the "covetous" heads held by government and the rams that make up next years winterkill.

What is the difference in shooting one of these "sanctuary" sheep and killing a deer or elk in a farmers field? There is no doubt in my mind that if an LEH where placed on this area there would be few on this forum that would not put in for a draw. ( I do realize it is in a different province.)


Regardless of those such as Dana who has his own purist opinion, I am a bit more of a realist who has a distaste for waste, be it dollars, animals, or whatever. In reality, I have no care whether these animals are utilized or not. Just thought I would throw out the question for discussion's sake.

As RiverOtter eluded to, how much feed do these old rams eat before they die that may be saved for a lamb to better it's chances of surviving it's first winter?

[Walking Buffalo]

When you have a bunch of monster rams living in the same area that reach such old ages, it is a sign you have an unbelievable herd. As a matter of fact, it could be argued there isn't really another place on earth that produces so many crankers. So I don't buy the argument that they need to be killed for conservation's sake.

The more tags that they auction off means the less rams that actually could reach ripe old ages which means the tags sell for way less which means you would have to pimp out more tags which means the quality suffers even more. Right now it is a very special place. Would hate to see that specialness lost due to the greed of some.



The Cadomin mine Sheep herd is a ripe for a disaster. This concern is not a matter of IF, but WHEN. The only thing "special" about this place is the belief that this experiment is justified.

[budismyhorse]

Gcreek.......you must not know the rules surrounding mine site property boundaries. They cannot allow for any type of public access onto their lands for any type of hunt......bow, rifle, knife.....strangling.......nothing.

In the Elk Valley, TECK Coal (then Elk Valley Coal Corp) has been questioned to produce an elk tag to bow hunt bulls that live and die on the Fording River Property for charity or conservation fund raising purposes........fact is the law doesn't allow it.

I would imagine the same rules apply to the Cado mine in Alberta. There are people working within those boundaries...remember that.

So instead, the "surplus elk and sheep" on those mine properties act as amazing gene pools for surrounding populations.......they are essentially "factories" for elk and sheep.

[budismyhorse]

The Cadomin mine Sheep herd is a ripe for a disaster. This concern is not a matter of IF, but WHEN. The only thing "special" about this place is the belief that this experiment is justified.

that sounds like you know something WB..........care to explain what you are talking about here. I assume you mean large population in one area being "ripe" for disease wiping them out...........but what is this "experiment" you are referring to?

Remember that this is an extremely large population......allowing a couple dudes to go out and whack a few rams and ewes won't result in a pinch of difference when it comes to the herds ability to withstand an outbreak of disease.

Not only that, the shear dollars it would take to relocate this buggers to reduce the herd down to a "safe" level would be out of the question.

so what is your suggestion?

[Roughneck Country]

I would love to see some of the breeding and older rams relocated to areas of the province with weaker genetics. (by this i mean smaller horns) Also wouldnt mind if they were reintroduced to the badlands and re-establish that population.

[604redneck]

Why do some hunters think it is a shame these rams died of old age??? Not every big critter needs to be killed by the hands of a rich hunter that can't hunt his way out of a paper bag and has to be taken by the hand to actual kill a tame animal. In my mind, I'd rather see these critters die the way they currently are.
Well said!

[Walking Buffalo]

that sounds like you know something WB..........care to explain what you are talking about here. I assume you mean large population in one area being "ripe" for disease wiping them out...........but what is this "experiment" you are referring to?

Remember that this is an extremely large population......allowing a couple dudes to go out and whack a few rams and ewes won't result in a pinch of difference when it comes to the herds ability to withstand an outbreak of disease.

Not only that, the shear dollars it would take to relocate this buggers to reduce the herd down to a "safe" level would be out of the question.

so what is your suggestion?


Cadomin is a complex situation. In a nutshell....


The Cadomin mine rehabilitation and the effects of open pit coal mining to wildlife is the experiment. The attempt to re-habilitate the landscape, or in the case of Cadomin, create new habitat, was the initial game. Now there is also a component of using the sheep literally as a "Canary" in the coal mine. The sheep are being used to understand the effects of heavy metal pollution on mammals, and in particular the potential for selenium poisoning. This Selenium research is focused on both wildlife and Human health effects. Will this type of coalmining end up harming people? Basically, research is being done to determine the effects of large scale mining in the mountains and foothills, with the objective for further expansion. Due to this study, the research needs to see an end result regardless of the outcome. If disease or poisoning starts to destroy the herds, so be it in the name of industrial research.


There are over 1100 sheep on the mine, with approx. 125 class IV rams. There are also a large number of elk here now. Wolves, cougars, and Grizzlies are having a field day as the mine does not have adequate escape terrain for the sheep to utilize. I guess the experimental habitat design has flaws.

As we have seen before with sheep, high pop. desities lead to disease related die-offs, often in very high percentages and a very slow recovery. Cadomin sheep do show antibodies for several diseases of concern. Why do we need to learn AGAIN about creating situations for Wild sheep to have a massize disease dieoff?

These sheep are NOT Genetically superior (re. horn size)! The Cadomin rams have only obtained larger horn size since the artificial foodsources have been available. The large horn size is a result of Nutrition, Not Genetics.

Another problem revealing itself with this experiment, the Mine is becoming a sinkhole. Sheep from surrounding areas appear to be leaving traditional range to live the easy life on the mine. We ( Alberta gov. and several private wildlife groups) have just begun a new scat based genetic study to determine sheep lineages over the province. This may reveal the truth about the mine creating voids in traditional sheep populations.

And another issue. The mine was approved under the guise that the area would be rehabilitated back to Natural condition, and hunting on the reclaimed minesite will resume. Now we have an Alfalfa field, and a plan to create an Non-hunting area where the mine once operated. Hunters have been scammed into believing that the mining would not result in a permanent loss of our traditional use of this area.




My suggestion. Don't allow wildlife aggregations to develop on industrial sites in the first place. Use whatever technique required to achieve this. As far as Cadomin goes, haze the animals off the site year round. They will quickly learn they are not welcome here, and will return to traditional areas.


And as a last note, These Sheep Skulls will NOT be sold by the province. Fortunately there still are people in the government that see the true value of wildlife does not include cash. We (Alberta gov. and WSF Ab) are working on a Display trailer so that the general public can have the opportunity to view, enjoy, and learn about these sheep.

[Walking Buffalo]

I would love to see some of the breeding and older rams relocated to areas of the province with weaker genetics. (by this i mean smaller horns) Also wouldnt mind if they were reintroduced to the badlands and re-establish that population.


Cadomin Rams had "weaker genetics" compared to other areas of Alberta, Horn size wise, before alfalfa fields were planted on the minesite. ;) In this case, horn size has nothing to do with genetics.

Re. prairie translocations, the idea was initiated to the point of selecting a site. However, a new disease issue with Wild sheep becoming infected from Cattle (Mycobacterium avium subspecies paratuberculosis (MAP)) has put this effort on hold.

[budismyhorse]

Though I think you have a bias against the mining industry and therefore are skewing your opinions towards the the issue .......that was an awesome response. Thanks!

I make my living in the mining industry ( private sector) partly contributing to the ever mounting knowledge base you are referring to WRT selenium research....... So I can tell you your strong opinions regarding the "why" surrounding coal reclamation research should be taken with a grain of salt..... As should mine ;)

[gcreek]

Thank you both for your answers.

[Roughneck Country]

Cadomin Rams had "weaker genetics" compared to other areas of Alberta, Horn size wise, before alfalfa fields were planted on the minesite. ;) In this case, horn size has nothing to do with genetics.

Re. prairie translocations, the idea was initiated to the point of selecting a site. However, a new disease issue with Wild sheep becoming infected from Cattle (Mycobacterium avium subspecies paratuberculosis (MAP)) has put this effort on hold.




I didn't realize the Cadomin Rams were just average rams to start. I wsa under the impression they used select breeding stock when populating the site back in the day. I knew they got some of their size because of lots of feed and being in a protected area let them get old.

On a side note that is one big elk in your avitar, I assume it is from a prairie unit by Suffield? I don't want to derail this thread. PM me if you wouldn't mind I would like to know how much priority it took you to get drawn, and if there is public land out there to hunt or if it is just privatly held and you need to know someone.

[Walking Buffalo]

Though I think you have a bias against the mining industry and therefore are skewing your opinions towards the the issue .......that was an awesome response. Thanks!

I make my living in the mining industry ( private sector) partly contributing to the ever mounting knowledge base you are referring to WRT selenium research....... So I can tell you your strong opinions regarding the "why" surrounding coal reclamation research should be taken with a grain of salt..... As should mine ;)


I benefit from the mining industry as a consumer. Re-reading my post, I fail to see any anti-mining seasoning, just a differing view from some on how wildlife on these mines should be managed.





I didn't realize the Cadomin Rams were just average rams to start. I wsa under the impression they used select breeding stock when populating the site back in the day. I knew they got some of their size because of lots of feed and being in a protected area let them get old.

On a side note that is one big elk in your avitar, I assume it is from a prairie unit by Suffield? I don't want to derail this thread. PM me if you wouldn't mind I would like to know how much priority it took you to get drawn, and if there is public land out there to hunt or if it is just privatly held and you need to know someone.


Historically, Cadomin area rams were shorter and had smaller base circumferences than rams to the south, believed to be due to weather conditions, mostly the occurance of chinooks.

It is an Ab prairie bull, but not from the Suffield area. I killed the bull in '09. The area will take about a priority of ten to be drawn this year. If you are in the Alberta draws and want some advice, feel free to pm some questions.