No more moose

[MRP]

http://m.princegeorgecitizen.com/article/20130304/PRINCEGEORGE0101/303049991/-1/princegeorge0101/bc-losing-moose&template=JQMArticle
Have I shot my last moose???

[gcreek]

More studies? Another bio whose vision is blurred to wolves and year round access?

[Fred1]

Did the govt not triple the number of LEH draws and extend the cow seasons in at least two regions right near PG over the last few years? I have a very reliable bio -ah source that claims the "thinking" behind doing this was to lower the moose population so the wolves would move on and leave the caribou alone?! Sound management idea coming from the desk in Victoria, or Mars. 0_o I know the birds dont crap on my deck if I stop putting out the sunflower seeds. But they arrive just as quickly when I put out the suet.... hmmmm

[steel_ram]

They should've come here first and ask the experts.

[MRP]

We don't have those fancy extra letters behind our name so our thoughts and observations from being out in the woods means nothing. U have to go to UVIC and have your common sense removed.

MRP. T.E.I.B.C
Transporton Engineer Incharge of Bulk Comedies aka truck driver.

[panhead]

More studies? Another bio whose vision is blurred to wolves and year round access?

And beetle kill too ...

JoAl?

[HarryToolips]

Did the govt not triple the number of LEH draws and extend the cow seasons in at least two regions right near PG over the last few years? I have a very reliable bio -ah source that claims the "thinking" behind doing this was to lower the moose population so the wolves would move on and leave the caribou alone?! Sound management idea coming from the desk in Victoria, or Mars. 0_o I know the birds dont crap on my deck if I stop putting out the sunflower seeds. But they arrive just as quickly when I put out the suet.... hmmmm
Now that would be the problem then, hopefully First Nations of the area are on board with conservation, and hopefully won't let their people shoot cows all the time...How much poaching occurs up there??

[gcreek]

And beetle kill too ...

JoAl?

JoAl BaSch? As long as he isn't called RoGra first!

[gcreek]

We don't have those fancy extra letters behind our name so our thoughts and observations from being out in the woods means nothing. U have to go to UVIC and have your common sense removed.

MRP. T.E.I.B.C
Transporton Engineer Incharge of Bulk Comedies aka truck driver.

LML has a set frame of mind from believing that the govt. tells everything and nothing but the gospel.

I surmise those of us that have had to deal with the environmental beaurocratic mindset more than we care to (on the ground) have come to our own conclusions.

[Fred1]

Poaching...unfortunately that happends everywhere. Keep your eyes wide open.....

[Mugger]

Untill the natives and pouchers are dealt with like the rest of us the moose and all game, fish species will be in trouble. Can not manage something you do not have 100% control over. Its smoke and mirors until the Government treats all canadians as equals.

[todbartell]

Id like to go if I can, will learn a lot about moose management Im sure

[BlacktailStalker]

A spin off on muggers comment and kind of going against my own thoughts (that what if's are stupid)
I wonder how the natives would react if the province were to announce an open season on moose until equal terms between races were met for moose management.
Would greed or concern overcome ?

[Jagermeister]

A spin off on muggers comment and kind of going against my own thoughts (that what if's are stupid)
I wonder how the natives would react if the province were to announce an open season on moose until equal terms between races were met for moose management.
Would greed or concern overcome ?That's a novel idea that hasn't been broached before. It might have merit if politicians would have the balls to implement it.

[1899]

I've spoken to a "higher up" and his view was that he sees 100% of the harvest allocation in certain areas going to the natives in the near future. It makes sense as the management plan puts conservation first, then native harvest allocation and then the rest of us.

[jhausner]

Some friends and I hunt Moose every few years on the Nechako and we've noticed the numbers to be about the same. We have spoken to quite a few of the local ranchers though in traveling around looking for Private Land we can get access to, and most have said overall the Moose in the area appears to be lower. All of them though had a different opinion than I've seen by biologists. They all were in agreement that along the sections of the Nechako we hunt, the ranchers are no longer allowed to burn the low lying brush. It either gets put out or they are denied the ability to so it has been growing thicker and thicker and Moose hate that. In 1 specific area they started seeing Elk a few years ago and Elk hadn't been seen in that area for 20-30 years and I've found that where Elk tend to really like to hang out, Moose tend to not to. So I think they're onto something at least. Means the Moose are probably moving away to alternate areas. The numbers do seem a bit low though and higher in areas like the Caribou.

[flyboy]

100% native hunting only in certain areas?

Oh boy I am not to good with that decision if it comes to light. I would have to put some serious thought into protesting that one. Might be a dead end but I know if the shoe was on the other foot there would be an uproar.........

[Boner]

In 1 specific area they started seeing Elk a few years ago and Elk hadn't been seen in that area for 20-30 years and I've found that where Elk tend to really like to hang out, Moose tend to not to. So I think they're onto something at least. Means the Moose are probably moving away to alternate areas. The numbers do seem a bit low though and higher in areas like the Caribou.

I was scratching my head over this too. In an area I hunt the most I seen a total of three moose during the elk rut, and then the elk season ended and the moose started to wake up because of their rut. Not sure if the elk are agressive to the moose, or if the moose are intimidated and don't move around as much with the elk in rut.

[Frango]

Some friends and I hunt Moose every few years on the Nechako and we've noticed the numbers to be about the same. We have spoken to quite a few of the local ranchers though in traveling around looking for Private Land we can get access to, and most have said overall the Moose in the area appears to be lower. All of them though had a different opinion than I've seen by biologists. They all were in agreement that along the sections of the Nechako we hunt, the ranchers are no longer allowed to burn the low lying brush. It either gets put out or they are denied the ability to so it has been growing thicker and thicker and Moose hate that. In 1 specific area they started seeing Elk a few years ago and Elk hadn't been seen in that area for 20-30 years and I've found that where Elk tend to really like to hang out, Moose tend to not to. So I think they're onto something at least. Means the Moose are probably moving away to alternate areas. The numbers do seem a bit low though and higher in areas like the Caribou.
I am going to disagrree with this statement as well. I have not seen moose in the elk herd but close enough to say they use the same area. A couple of years ago I was sitting in a blind waiting for a herd of elk to pass by and in the course of a couple of hours 2 bulls and a cow moose walked by on the same game trail that the elk were using.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

If the moose pops are that low I could live with that; however, if the FN bands tell the gov't it's business as usual for the FN owned G/O's while resident hunters sit on the sidelines, I will have a serious problem with that.

SSS

[1899]

If the moose pops are that low I could live with that; however, if the FN bands tell the gov't it's business as usual for the FN owned G/O's while resident hunters sit on the sidelines, I will have a serious problem with that.

SSS

That's what he said.

[40incher]

The Prince George newspaper article claims that Skeena/Nass moose populations are down by 70%. What a crock of shit. If a bureaucrat put this spin on the real situation he/she should be fired.

The moose population in the Skeena/Nass/Stikine is doing very well except for where the Nis'gaa territory is. That would be the only area under FN control. They, as unlicensed and unrestricted killers, have shot the shit out of the moose in the lower Nass and licensed hunters have zero (that would be 0) moose quota in that portion of the Nass. That's the only area in all of Region 6 that is down by more than 10% to 20% since 2004. Region 6 moose are doing just fine even with no predator management from government, and despite very high predator numbers.

We don't need a bullshit symposium to validate the chicken littles from the bureaucracy. The Region 7A "moose model" has come back to bite the so-called "professional" biologists in the ass. Let them answer to killing cows and calves at will, and then openly document a crash in the numbers. Give me a break.

The sky is not falling!

The Skeena "model", developed by local resident hunters and local guides, has stood the test of time! Don't drag us in to your perceived and well-structured problem.

Perhaps you might want to talk to the hunter reps on the Skeena Hunter Advisory Committee (SHAC) to get the facts. I'm sure MFLNRO staff will put you in contact with the SHAC chair??

[GoatGuy]

I think you're going to have population declines in that 6-1 - 6-4 country as well. Same with Region 5, where there is no selective harvest strategy.

[Piperdown]

6-04 is doing well :)

[40incher]

In region 6 things are fine.

There are localized issues that will arise, and that's why Management Units were created. When issues do arise they can be discussed once the data is presented to the SHAC so that resident hunters, guides and government can hopefully agree on a plan.

When compared to what we see in Region 5 and 7A it makes one wonder why the Skeena Plan is not followed more closely.

One thing is for sure, trying to create contoversy as in the Citizen news article serves no one well.

[quigleyoutwest]

what about what the outfitters are allowed to take?

[GoatGuy]

In region 6 things are fine.

There are localized issues that will arise, and that's why Management Units were created. When issues do arise they can be discussed once the data is presented to the SHAC so that resident hunters, guides and government can hopefully agree on a plan.

When compared to what we see in Region 5 and 7A it makes one wonder why the Skeena Plan is not followed more closely.

One thing is for sure, trying to create contoversy as in the Citizen news article serves no one well.

I fail to see how the "skeena plan" is any different than Region 5 other than the majority of the bull harvest in Region 6 is during the week long GOS as opposed to LEH. The outcome for the moose is no different - the difference between the two is hunter opportunity.

Does someone have the results of the inventory work from Region 6 this winter?

My guess is the east corner where you have salvage logging you're going to find moose pops down.

[Caribou_lou]

I fail to see why the idea of a "Cow and Calf" hunt keeps arising in region 6. Our moose populations are doing well. And they will continue to do well.

[GoatGuy]

I fail to see why the idea of a "Cow and Calf" hunt keeps arising in region 6. Our moose populations are doing well. And they will continue to do well.

didn't know it had, news to me.

[Fred1]

Outfitters are on quotas... In the last few years many outfitters (in region 7) have had their qoutas reduced - some lost so many they have closed. The Gov't changed the qoutas based on the ammount or percent of "moose ground" ie swamp, willow river etc- an outfitter had in his territory - so if you had mostly alpine you were screwed. I believe these reduced quotas were turned into more LEH draws... I cant confirm that for certain. Some outfitters lost their cow quotas - because the gov't claims shooting cow moose is not a quality hunt - what ever that means?! Again I think the cow numbers were supposed to go back into the LEH system...??

Most of the outfitters in region 7 dont fill anywhere near their qoutas in a year - the REAL success rate would blow your mind... However a few moose outfitters fill their quotas/tags every year. A few in the 95% success rate EVERY year. I know for a fact that where I guide the moose population and the quota given with the harvest is sustainable. - its been working for over 40 years.
Without a doubt some areas are seeing reduced moose numbers, this happends -winter survival rates and predation etc - the natural stuff. However when we introduce man in to the mix the balance shifts. We see less moose and immediately blame the wolf... :) Our natural, resource is being attacked - naturally mind you...
I believe our management of our "valued" critters is missing something. If numbers appear to be low, close an areas or reduce the LEH for a couple years. SO how do we quantify "low numbers"???

Now as for the First Nations hunting ... yeesh let me step into that pile...
If the population of any critter is in jeopardy - close the hunt to EVERYONE for a period!! Police it! Use our laws to protect what is important - the viability of what WE see as a renewable resource which is ALL our right to use as Canadians. Im sure the FN can go one year with out a cerimonial moose feast in order to sustain and or revive a population?!? I mean chit look at our fish stocks!?!

ok.. I better get back to work...

[Ltbullken]

Some of the numbers may be credible but the 70% decline in the Skeena Region cries out for some substantation.

[1899]

Fred1 - I think the guides are going to have a tougher time too. Have you seen the December 10, 2012 information bulletin re Harvest Allocation?

Here it is:
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/harvest_alloc/docs/2012FOR0221-001981.pdf


And a gem from the above noted document (not that it should/will come as a surprise):

Allocations for resident and non-resident hunters are set only after conservation requirements and First Nations harvest opportunities have been fulfilled.

Conservation is the highest priority, and if there are concerns for the viability of a wildlife population, then harvest opportunities will be reduced or even suspended. If a harvestable surplus exists, the first priority for harvest goes to First Nations exercising their aboriginal rights, which entitle them to hunt for food, social or ceremonial purposes.

[Fred1]

Thanks 1899. Yes it looks like it will all get tougher and tighter for most of us... Yes and a gem of a quote it is...

[40incher]

The Region 6 numbers expressed in the news article are B.S. The only 70% decline is in the Nisg'aa Territory where licenced hunting is inconsequential. You can wait until it frosts in hell before the bureaucracy will come clean on that.

As for the Region 7 guides losing quota based on their territory's quality for moose , that is by design of the GOABC negotiators.

Once the resident/non-resident splits were decided it was up to the guides themselves to decide who suffered most. That is a fact.

What we all have to realize as resident hunters and guides is that we are being played like fiddles. Thet have us fighting amongst ourselves, even though the guides in Region 6 can't kill 50% of their quota due to low bookings as a result of the U.S. economy, and we get dragged into inane issues that in the big picture mean nothing. Duuuhhh .....???

Hunters, both resident and guides, need to get on the same page. We are not being served well.

[1899]

40incher - so what is your suggestion on how to get on the same page?

[xcaribooer]

first thing I would do is axe the calf season. it is a rare event to see a calf that has managed to escape the predators in the first place so why do we need to add more pressure by shooting off the remaining few??? let them grow dammit!!

[drakfero]

I just wonder what the hell all those Victoria sleepers clerks are doing all year long.. No idea about the harvest , about the population of animals of any kind in the province!! Now , when everybody says about moose decline (for a long time) , the FN will be only group to hunt it??? Is not it them , who is killing anything before the season starts? Its only group who is not giving back to managments and revenues not even proper data of harvest. So I am asking you "Canadians" , are you any less than them? Isn't it you from who's money is all paid???

[Fred1]

Ah politics... Clearly there is no clear solution. Or at least no clear path to a solution. We can talk about it here every night, but really what else can we do? Those that have some intelligent things to say, how can "we" get those ideas heard? Who will listen? I myself don't have many answers. Hopefully by asking questions, answers will come... Hopefully one will lead a cause and raise a voice that will be heard. One thing I am sure of, whatever that voice sounds or looks like, we who care about our province's wildlife must show our support!

[Fred1]

Oh ya... agreed on the "axe the calf season" !!

[40incher]

40incher - so what is your suggestion on how to get on the same page?

We need to go back to where we were a few years ago. In our Region the guides and the resident hunters got along fairly well. Then came the rewrite of the Allocation Policy. This rewrite was not requested by us, nor the local guides. The bureaucrats drove the process to consolidate control over both sectors. It was very divisive, and continues to be.

A move back to sitting down and talking out sensible allocation splits makes more sense than being dictated to by Victoria and their hand-picked advisors.

Back to the moose issue in 7A, stop the bureaucratically-driven killing of cows and calves This has never made sense, unless the moose population is at carrying capacity based on the winter range. Region 6 moose are doing well as a result of hunters and guides having a united position.

[TPK]

We need to go back to where we were a few years ago....... Then came the rewrite of the Allocation Policy.... It was very divisive, and continues to be.

One of the main benefits of the allocation policy was the elimination of the "tinkering" by the local wildlife managers, that's a good thing. The allocation splits are now clear and enforced via Victoria, no more back room deals. Let's not entertain going back to what it was before. Open, honest and up front allocations that are enforced are what we need, not back room deals.