Spences Bridge LEH

[Kirby]

So I have been hearing rumours that because of an illegal ram taken at spences bridge and the guy continuing to fight the court decision from last year that FLNRO is looking at implementing a full LEH at spences bridge.

Curious to see who supports this and who is opposed to this? Thoughts?

[Weatherby Fan]

If it can sustain an open season I see no reason why it should go to LEH
WF

[GoatGuy]

Who's the latest cull? Same guy?

[Weatherby Fan]

Who's the latest cull? Same guy?

Sounds like it's the same court case that was ongoing from a cpl years back.

[GoatGuy]

Did he appeal?

[boxhitch]

The Gov't has lost its taste for fighting cases in court that are indefensible due to interpretation and judgement errors .
That was the main reason for dropping the age requirement , and it still seems to be a struggle to judge horn curl correctly.

LEH has been talked about as a way to apply a mandatory hunter education program for those lucky participants , in the hope they would make better, educated, judgement calls before pulling the trigger.
Can responsibility and accountability be taught and legislated ?
Would LEH only bring on a group of hunters that feel compelled to kill something/anything on a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity ?

Is the Spences bighorn hunt so iconic that it needs to be preserved as a GOS regardless of the illegal harvest ?
How healthy is the recruitment , are there enough old rams ?

Lots of ?????????????

[Stone Sheep Steve]

The Gov't has lost its taste for fighting cases in court that are indefensible due to interpretation and judgement errors .
That was the main reason for dropping the age requirement , and it still seems to be a struggle to judge horn curl correctly.

LEH has been talked about as a way to apply a mandatory hunter education program for those lucky participants , in the hope they would make better, educated, judgement calls before pulling the trigger.
Can responsibility and accountability be taught and legislated ?
Would LEH only bring on a group of hunters that feel compelled to kill something/anything on a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity ?


I guess it would depend on what the draw was for........any ram(no issues).....or some other horn curl restriction. A few "any ram" draws where success rate is very high or more draws with a restriction= more draws and lower success rate?


SSS

[Wild one]

Lots of hunter look for a ram in Spences making it a fairly busy place to sheep hunt. The population of sheep seems good and I don't see the season in place damaging the population. But I have heard of many rams over the years shot coming up short and for that reason I would support an LEH. That being said a less restrictive LEH like any ram or 3/4 would be nice.

[boxhitch]

Would leh answer it ?
LEH would certainly limit the number of hunters , but unless it was 'any ram' , there could still be short sheep killed.
'Any ram' could raise success , depends only on the hunters attitude.

The Spences GOS is special in so many ways
Where else so close to a large metro area can a bighorn GOS be sustained ?
Will the sheep loose 'value' under LEH ?

[1899]

The Gov't has lost its taste for fighting cases in court that are indefensible due to interpretation and judgement errors .
That was the main reason for dropping the age requirement , and it still seems to be a struggle to judge horn curl correctly.

LEH has been talked about as a way to apply a mandatory hunter education program for those lucky participants , in the hope they would make better, educated, judgement calls before pulling the trigger.
Can responsibility and accountability be taught and legislated ?
Would LEH only bring on a group of hunters that feel compelled to kill something/anything on a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity ?

Is the Spences bighorn hunt so iconic that it needs to be preserved as a GOS regardless of the illegal harvest ?
How healthy is the recruitment , are there enough old rams ?

Lots of ?????????????

What do you mean by this?

[dogger]

Wouldnt mind seeing a LEH in there but would like to see the draw money go back into the sheep!:)

[bighornbob]

Wouldnt mind seeing a LEH in there but would like to see the draw money go back into the sheep!:)

We already have it, its called the Special Sheep LEH. $15 dollars lets you in there up to Dec 10 way after the season closes.

BHB

[Wild one]

Would leh answer it ?
LEH would certainly limit the number of hunters , but unless it was 'any ram' , there could still be short sheep killed.
'Any ram' could raise success , depends only on the hunters attitude.

The Spences GOS is special in so many ways
Where else so close to a large metro area can a bighorn GOS be sustained ?
Will the sheep loose 'value' under LEH ?


Unless it is any ram the potential for the problem is always there. Odds are it would raise success but that would need to be a factor in the number of draws

I don't see the number of hunters being the problem as the harvest at this time is restricted and limited. Most don't leave there truck and just glass from the tail gate never seeing a ram worth chasing anyway.

I don't see LEH taking the value away from the sheep but yes it would take away hunter opportunity. I myself would loose out this way

What it comes down to is there are too many hunters taking a risk so it comes down to either the sheep pay for this and it stays GOS or hunters pay with it going LEH. My self I would rather limit waste but that is just my opinion. If everyone was perfect this would not be an issue but that is not the case

[Apolonius]

No LEH for me.I haven't hunted that spot for a while but i know there are some very good rams there.LEH would take away the chances for everyone except for the few lucky ones.Education is the answer in my opinion.As for the guy with the short sheep i don't know the story.But it was on the grape vine that another short ram was killed again last season.Wishfull thinking kills the short rams.

[BlacktailStalker]

Impose a larger blanket fine and penalty. If it measures short you pay.
Leave it as it is. Lets face it, you'll never have a chance at a Cali ram or all four in bc if they do that. Fine the F out of them. People will think five times if a massive fine is on the line. When people are falling short on 2 and 1.8:1 draws year after year there is a problem with leh IMO. I don't cry about the leh, I never get any and still hunt but I sure dont support it taking away open hunting opportunities unless there is science behind it. Not some idiots mistake.

[BCrams]

LEH would have to be for any ram. To do otherwise will not remove the problem of people shooting 'short' sheep. LEH may also attract hunters who normally do not hunt sheep and having any ram would alleviate the problem somewhat of shooting underaged or sub full curl rams. Hunter education for successful LEH holders should be mandatory along with maps to aid the hunter on where and what to focus on for rams, similar to draw programs in the States to aid the hunter.

This may increase the odds of success for those drawn, however would it create tougher odds of drawing a tag? I sense a big removal of hunter opportunity with LEH.

Does LEH solve the problem? What about hunter opportunity by those who pursue bighorns every year in the Spences area?

Would the LEH be broken down into shorter seasons like the Ashnola cali draw?

Would they have LEH and a GOS? I feel a shortened GOS along with LEH may result in short rams being shot in a pressure packed season.

What to do? Keep status quo?

Personally - Keep status quo and continue monitoring harvest. Have a special LEH hunt to allow for harvest of any ram but provide mandatory hunter education with intent to get them to pursue those big old broomed rams that will never make it to full curl.

[GoatGuy]

If it's the same 'individual', let it take it's course.

Now that it's a curl only regulation you shouldn't end up with anyone else shooting illegal sheep and having their friend talk them into it being legal.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

If it is the same individual, WE are the ones paying for his ignorance......and deep pockets. I said that right from the start.

SSS

[GoatGuy]

If it is the same individual, WE are the ones paying for his ignorance......and deep pockets. I said that right from the start.

SSS
Sure hope it isn't

[ARC]

Even with the occasional short ram being taken now, is it having a huge impact on sheep numbers? I thought that since they moved to a 'mature' ram regulation, overall harvest has dropped significantly as compared to when it was under 'full curl'. I was lead to believe that even with the unfortunate illegal harvests, the harvest rate was still acceptable from a conservation stand point.

I don't see how going to an any ram LEH makes sense. The problem now is that young/short rams are being harvested, so you move to a system that could result in even younger rams being taken?

Is this an enforcement issue or a conservation issue?

[bighornbob]

Is this an enforcement issue or a conservation issue?

I think it has more to do with the local boss being questioned by the Victoria boss "Why is half the harvest illegal?" LEH wont change the rams being killed (a squeeker 6 year old that is illegal now will still be killed under an LEH).

But under LEH, the local boss can say I had no illegal harvest even though half the rams may be 3/4 curl 5 year olds.

The quetion that needs to be asked is, "Is the total harvest of rams sustainable"? If the illegal harvest pushes us over the edge of what is sustainable then by all means place it on LEH.

But if LEH is being pushed because of the illegal harvest is bad just becasue it looks bad then we all have to stand up and fight this.

BHB

[Trophyslayer]

As long as the population can sustain a GOS there is know point and making it an leh. Simple as that so what a few short rams are taken thats bound to happen anywhere. I'd rather see something like you must take a sheep Age Identification course to be able to purchase a sheep tag. It would make all these short ram cases easier to deal with IMO

[Stone Sheep Steve]

As long as the population can sustain a GOS there is know point and making it an leh. Simple as that so what a few short rams are taken thats bound to happen anywhere. I'd rather see something like you must take a sheep Age Identification course to be able to purchase a sheep tag. It would make all these short ram cases easier to deal with IMO

The age criteria has been removed from Spences Bridge.

SSS

[guest]

To Many Clowns over the years shooting under sized and under aged Rams. They brought this on.

I hope it Does go LEH to help Secure the future of the Sheep. Some of these Rams although sickle like horns grew near f/c and too many clowns just couldn't hold off.

GO LEH !! yes it means the majority won't be able to have the opportunity to hunt the Spences group but whats better, full closure or LEH .......

Im going with the LEH and hoping I get drawn some day.

CT

[bcmulie]

It would be a shame if this hunt went LEH. The years have shown that there are enough sheep there to maintain a GOS, which is an incredible opportunity for hunters. LEH is a knee-jerk reaction. There needs to be more creative thinking about options for solving the illegal harvest. Why not require a mandatory education session before permitting people to buy a sheep tag? This could be as simple as requiring proof that you've taken the Wild Sheep Society horn curl test. I'm sure there are plenty of other ideas if people just turn their minds to it.

Limiting hunter opportunity for sheep through an LEH will be bad for sheep in the long run - history shows that the only people willing to contribute conservation dollars for our wildlife are the people that get to hunt the same wildlife. If you limit the hunting, you limit the conservation dollars.

bcmulie

[Walking Buffalo]

To Many Clowns over the years shooting under sized and under aged Rams. They brought this on.

I hope it Does go LEH to help Secure the future of the Sheep. Some of these Rams although sickle like horns grew near f/c and too many clowns just couldn't hold off.

GO LEH !! yes it means the majority won't be able to have the opportunity to hunt the Spences group but whats better, full closure or LEH .......

Im going with the LEH and hoping I get drawn some day.

CT

Please explain how a complete LEH will "Secure the Future" of these sheep as opposed to the present rules?

What damage is being done to the sheep population under the GOS season?

[Apolonius]

I agree with ARC.Even with the odd ram being short ,there are plenty of rams there.It doesn't destroy the herd.It is not right but at least this way many more hunters buy tags.If you give 10 LEH ,you will sell only ten tags.The draw will be about 6 bucks so it would take ten applications to replace a tag.Education not restriction.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

To Many Clowns over the years shooting under sized and under aged Rams. They brought this on.

I hope it Does go LEH to help Secure the future of the Sheep. Some of these Rams although sickle like horns grew near f/c and too many clowns just couldn't hold off.

GO LEH !! yes it means the majority won't be able to have the opportunity to hunt the Spences group but whats better, full closure or LEH .......

Im going with the LEH and hoping I get drawn some day.

CT

With the capability to grow 190-200" rams, I'd bet the odds would be similar to Kamloops Lake. We all "hope" to get that draw one day too.

It won't go full closure unless there is an all age die-off of some sort.

SSS

[Wild one]

Instead of LEH make it an archery only season than the shooter should be close enough not to make mistakes. Than everyone could still hunt sheep and it should minimize the problem of short rams :razz:

[one-shot-wonder]

The sad reality would be that if it went to LEH all archers would lose an opportunity to hunt sheep, even if very,very few ever get a chance to kill a legal ram atleast one has an opportunity to hunt sheep and mentor a future sheep hunter. With less and less GOS in the province it is pretty difficult to mentor and show young hunters how and where to find a ram. Lets hope Bighorn hunters don't go the way of the dodo bird.........

[dana]

With the capability to grow 190-200" rams, I'd bet the odds would be similar to Kamloops Lake. We all "hope" to get that draw one day too.

It won't go full closure unless there is an all age die-off of some sort.

SSS

The only benefit I could see to making Spences LEH would be that the Kamloops LEH odds would drop from 900:1 to 450:1. Still a long wait for a sheep tag regardless what unit you put in for. If the Spences herd can handle the current harvest, why change it? I could understand if there was a crash like in other parts of the Fraser, but not if the numbers are still going strong.

[blackbart]

Great post to get the sheep hunters all fired up in late February. Gotta love Kirby's sense of ha ha.

Is the court case being referred to that of one Kenneth Eng from the Kelowna area? There was quite a lengthy thread on this site about the ram that he shot based on age rather than horn length. Worthy of a bowl of popcorn for those that have not seen it. I am still particularly fond of the field photo's that were once up, but later removed...

Anyways since that particular ram was shot the age criteria has been removed, which should help reduce overall harvest. Last falls weather pattern should have resulted in a decrease of harvest over traditional years as well. Perhaps someone on this site has access to the harvest numbers and can share.
http://www.kamloopsnews.ca/article/20110921/KAMLOOPS0101/110929950/-1/kamloops/bighorn-sheep-hunting-rules-complex-judge-told

[aggiehunter]

some people I know would just be happy walking around knowing they are hunting sheep with little to no chance of a harvest...you can read between the lines on that one if you like...

[Gamebuster]

Impose a larger blanket fine and penalty. If it measures short you pay.
Leave it as it is. Lets face it, you'll never have a chance at a Cali ram or all four in bc if they do that. Fine the F out of them. People will think five times if a massive fine is on the line. When people are falling short on 2 and 1.8:1 draws year after year there is a problem with leh IMO. I don't cry about the leh, I never get any and still hunt but I sure dont support it taking away open hunting opportunities unless there is science behind it. Not some idiots mistake.

Problem with that is people would be more likely to leave their short sheep out there....now it appears folks know they can get their sheep back thru court which leaves few choices. I heard that several sheep this year were not legal, plus the one from years ago that was obviously not legal is still going on. That must be costing a fortune for hunter and govt. why not stand up and be held accountable if a sheep doesn't make it. Likely because it appears somewhat easy to get your illegal sheep back.same old story, few people wrecking things for everyone else

[BlacktailStalker]

Good point.

[guest]

Reply to Walking Tatonka,

To many small Rams get shot almost EVERY YEAR !

This added to the right to hunt by FN and other factors.

GO LEH

CT

[Apolonius]

Should it go to LEH ,if you give 3 tags any ram, than thinking about 800 to 900 people applying...hmmmmm your chances are once in THREE HUNDREND years????Meaning it would take 300 years for nine hundrend rams.But maybe whit the hunter die off it would work at 200.Good luck to all of you that support LEH.By the way i do have my legal Rocky mountain.But i can't believe more hunters want restrictions than not.They already rerstricted the harvest by changing to Mature.Last year we had what one illegal and one or two legal rams?For an area that use to have more than 8 rams a year?The herd is doing well.Maybe restricting would seem as a management tool but good management mean good harvest.To all that support LEH get off your ass, work hard,get out of your truck and there are rams to be had.I know!!!If you want an LEH so you can get any ram of the road, i don't.Like a lot of us.Maybe the guides would like it.More tags for them maybe??And than sell it to an American.I did not like it at all that the trophy ram went to an american.I would be happier if a hard working local guy got it.Our wildlife belongs to us.

[GoatGuy]

If it goes to LEH you will not get drawn.

If you never want to be able to hunt sheep in that area again an any ram LEH is the best way to accomplish that.

[bighornbob]

I wish it was just a try to rile things up. FLNRO can't fight short rams when guys have deep pockets and just keep fighting it. The time and money it takes to fight these court cases is astounding. If guys who shot short sheep just up'd and took the fine rather than be dicks fighting it in court there wouldn't be an issue.

I've held that short ram from spences its short and underage no question no debate and the guy knows it but he has deep pockets so will continue to fight it. If he wins or the next guy does it thats the end of GOS Spences sheep. These guys need to become social outcasts for their actions and unwillingness to accept the concequences of their actions.

Why aren't there issues like this in the Kootenays or up north. Obviously there are dicks with deep pockets everywhere in the province, why is this only a Spences Bridge problem and not a whole BC sheep problem as you can shoot a short sheep in the koots and still shoot on age up north for stones?????

BHB

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I wish it was just a try to rile things up. FLNRO can't fight short rams when guys have deep pockets and just keep fighting it. The time and money it takes to fight these court cases is astounding. If guys who shot short sheep just up'd and took the fine rather than be dicks fighting it in court there wouldn't be an issue.

I've held that short ram from spences its short and underage no question no debate and the guy knows it but he has deep pockets so will continue to fight it. If he wins or the next guy does it thats the end of GOS Spences sheep. These guys need to become social outcasts for their actions and unwillingness to accept the concequences of their actions.


Well said Kirby!! Their selfishness will only spoil it for the rest of us. If anyone knows these people, let them know how you feel.

SSS

[Walking Buffalo]

Reply to Walking Tatonka,

To many small Rams get shot almost EVERY YEAR !

This added to the right to hunt by FN and other factors.

GO LEH

CT


This response doesn't answer the question? How would an LEH "Save these Sheep"?

Can you answer these questions?

What is the Ram population percentage and class counts?
How many "young" rams are illegally killed by licenced hunters each year?
How does this mortality endanger the overall population?


The government ammended the hunting regulations last year as an attempt to avoid legal action when defending their rulings. According to rumours, putting this hunt on full LEH is for financial reasons, Not Conservation.

[Weatherby Fan]

Under the Leh they can control how many permits are put out for sheep to be taken, the way it is now its wide open and they don't have control

And your right about the money , if on LEH it would eliminate the need for costly court cases

[Apolonius]

I think like Walking Buffalo there is the smell of money.I think some people are having their own reasons for doing that and some just follow.You see at last years draw on Chasm ,one local tag,one guide???.Leh will make it easier for two guys and harder or impossible for 898 guys.Now at least we all do have a chance.And like BHB said why it all about Spences only???Who is pushing it?And why?Dont the Kooteneys get small rams?NO LEH.

[bighornbob]

I think like Walking Buffalo there is the smell of money.I think some people are having their own reasons for doing that and some just follow.You see at last years draw on Chasm ,one local tag,one guide???.Leh will make it easier for two guys and harder or impossible for 898 guys.Now at least we all do have a chance.And like BHB said why it all about Spences only???Who is pushing it?And why?Dont the Kooteneys get small rams?NO LEH.


That area is not under any guide/outfitters so I would say its not them pushing for it. I also doubt there is any push from the Native sheep hunters (a couple of them) because the guys that are shooting them for the horns are looking for the big rams, usually wait till after the season when the rut is is full swing. So me and you dont really get in their way hunting in September and October.

I dont think its a problem in the East Koots as they kill close to 20 rams (dont quote me on this) a year and only one or two may be illegal (so less then 10%). Same thing up north how many legal rams killed to illegal? I would bet it's less then 5%. But at spences Bridge, with the low harvest, you can get 50% of your harvest being illegal. I think its that number that looks bad in Victoria, nothing to do with herd health.

BHB

[boxhitch]

But at spences Bridge, with the low harvest, you can get 50% of your harvest being illegal. I think its that number that looks bad in Victoria, nothing to do with herd health.Probably the biggest factor for sure. Tough for a manager to justify a hunt if the ratio is continually that close.
For what its worth , there were no illegal sheep reported for the 2011 season. So it varies.
All this over a couple of rams , not talking big numbers here. Its the court cases that are killing it.

[bighornbob]

Probably the biggest factor for sure. Tough for a manager to justify a hunt if the ratio is continually that close.
For what its worth , there were no illegal sheep reported for the 2011 season. So it varies.
All this over a couple of rams , not talking big numbers here. Its the court cases that are killing it.

I dont have the numbers from last year, do you?

BHB

[Deadshot]

Probably the biggest factor for sure. Tough for a manager to justify a hunt if the ratio is continually that close.
For what its worth , there were no illegal sheep reported for the 2011 season. So it varies.
All this over a couple of rams , not talking big numbers here. Its the court cases that are killing it.

I thought there were 2 sheep confiscated out of 3-17 in 2011. This info was passed onto WSSBC as possible donations for the auction. I was told the ministry was going to destroy the horns, rather than sending them to auction where the hunter could simply bid on their own horns.

[Apolonius]

Ok is not now under a guide but what is next?You see BHB i use to be involved a bit and knew all the ins and outs of Spences.Before we went to mature there was a harvest of half or less of the legal rams.There always was some short rams.True with LEH it would solve the short ram problem.But in my opinion education is the key.And make it a law if it is short you just loose it.Make the measurements a little more tight with that gadget they use and we could have an open season.I am getting old to clime those mountains but for all the young hunters "the Rams are there" i know ,i see them.Put your tracks on the mountain and you will get your reward.There are some 20 rams that are book quality.You dont see them much ,thats why the get old.I get my numbers from a herd of around 450 Sheep.You have a percentage of say male to female and young to old.With the mature requirement the harvest is cut in half.And the trophys die of old age.Keep it for you, the younger guys, GOS.Just one rule if it looks questionable .....the ram is SHORT.Big rams look big.And you dont have to kill a ram every year.Seeing them is a reward itself.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Another option is to go to a 1 in 5. Kill a ram in 3-17 and you can tag another ram there for 5 yrs....however; I don't really think that will adresse the issue of illegal harvest. It's another option to add to make Victoria think that something is being done.

SSS

[boxhitch]

My error , 2010 no illegals


I dont have the numbers from last year, do you?
in the works

[Stone C. Killer]

I doubt a court case like this one will happen again as you can't shoot rams on age anymore out of Spences. A person who shoots a ram in this area that's short of the bridge of the nose doesn't have much of an argument anymore, do they?

[boxhitch]

2011 - 1 of 2 illegal
2012 - 4 of 4 illegal. Thats just getting f'en out of hand. Idiots


A person who shoots a ram in this area that's short of the bridge of the nose doesn't have much of an argument anymore, do they?
There has always been issues, in bighorns and thinhorns, in the determination and opinion in judging the curl.

[boxhitch]

Maybe it is a good thing that under the current GOS there are lots of hunters in the area and the SSS method doesn't work with witnesses.
Under LEH there would be way way fewer eyes and more rams could just disappear.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Maybe it is a good thing that under the current GOS there are lots of hunters in the area and the SSS method doesn't work with witnesses.
Under LEH there would be way way fewer eyes and more rams could just disappear.

I concur. Nothing goes on over there without at least one set of eyes as a witness. I can attest to that.:neutral:

SSS

[BlacktailStalker]

2011 - 1 of 2 illegal
2012 - 4 of 4 illegal. Thats just getting f'en out of hand. Idiots

There has always been issues, in bighorns and thinhorns, in the determination and opinion in judging the curl.

There was only 4 rams shot last year and they were all illegal ???

[Wild one]

There was only 4 rams shot last year and they were all illegal ???

Not surprised I ran into 2 guys hunting sheep last fall that did not know that mature ram goes by curl only now not age.

[GoatGuy]

Not surprised I ran into 2 guys hunting sheep last fall that did not know that mature ram goes by curl only now not age.

Hopefully we don't have to make reading a prerequisite for hunting.

[bighornbob]

Not surprised I ran into 2 guys hunting sheep last fall that did not know that mature ram goes by curl only now not age.

I guess they did not read the 2 brand new signs the WSSOBC erected on the two main roads saying the regs have changed.

BHB

[Wild one]

I guess they did not read the 2 brand new signs the WSSOBC erected on the two main roads saying the regs have changed.

BHB

Sad part about that is they were glassing just up the road from the sign so odds are the drove past it. They did noticed the warning about nails/screws may be on the road sign

[MadCat]

I would not like to see it go to LEH at all. Having areas go away from GOS (as long as there is no concern about the sheep numbers) is a bad step towards becoming like the states. I love to hunt sheep and would hate to have to wait 10 or more years to be able to hunt for one. The people that are killing these short sheep have to be handed huge fines, thats the only thing thats going to keep them from pulling the trigger on a sheep that they had to convince themselves is legal.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I guess they did not read the 2 brand new signs the WSSOBC erected on the two main roads saying the regs have changed.

BHB

Or read the changes in the synopsis:-?.

SSS

[MattB]

Maybe sheep hunters should have to sign a waiver that states what the regulations are and the consequences of shooting an illegal ram. If a ram is shot then that waiver should hold up in court if some a$$hole tries this again should it not?

[Gateholio]

What are the names of the other illeg sheep poachers?

[Apolonius]

I am happy to see more guys on the no side.Feel real bad if 4 out of 4 were illegal.That can screw it up for the rest of us.I did not know that many short sheep went out.Another thing is some time ago it wasn't much access and whoever went in there was seasoned and wanted a big ram.Now, maybe access and long range shooting in a way maybe contribute to that.Now you can see guys road hunting for rams.Maybe sheep hunters should have to take courses and a test,to save the sheep for the next generation.This way maybe something would change for the better.Spences is capable of producing nice rams.We shouldn't screw up things for the next guys.

[boxhitch]

Now, maybe access and long range shooting in a way maybe contribute to thatwaiting for the episode where the hunter lobs one across the Thompson into Rainbow. hey, maybe its already on Uboob

[Stone Sheep Steve]

waiting for the episode where the hunter lobs one across the Thompson into Rainbow. hey, maybe its already on Uboob

Just make sure there are no trains a comin'!!:-D

SSS

[The Dude]

Does anyone else feel that the GOS may force someone's mindset to take 'their' ram before someone else gets it, leading to sub-legal rams being taken?
Human nature is hard to overcome when dealing with humans.

[bridger]

Lots of hunter look for a ram in Spences making it a fairly busy place to sheep hunt. The population of sheep seems good and I don't see the season in place damaging the population. But I have heard of many rams over the years shot coming up short and for that reason I would support an LEH. That being said a less restrictive LEH like any ram or 3/4 would be nice.


How is leh going to reduce illegal harvest? The only way to reduce illegal harvest based on age or curl is to go leh any ram. Leh on any specie should be the last option imo!!

[358mag]

waiting for the episode where the hunter lobs one across the Thompson into Rainbow. hey, maybe its already on Uboob
Wouldnt be the first time that somedick head shoot across the hwy+ train tracks and now with all these dial a prayer shooters sure its going to be happening more .

[Wild one]

How is leh going to reduce illegal harvest? The only way to reduce illegal harvest based on age or curl is to go leh any ram. Leh on any specie should be the last option imo!!

Any ram Leh is the only way to %100 prevent hunters accidentally taking short rams. Even a 3/4 draw would most likely lower the number of short rams.

With the mature reg you can come across fullcurl rams or old broomed rams most would not pass anywhere else yet they are not legal in Spences. This can cause some to risk it on a ram that may squeak by out of frustration. This is not right but it is human nature that you will find these people. Spences also seems to get a lot of first time sheep hunters do to good access and close to the lower mainland. This is good that the GOS there gives an opportunity for those who want to try sheep hunting but it also makes it so it sees a good number of hunters lacking experience in judging rams trying to hunt under stricked regs.

I would not be happy to loose the GOS in Spences as it is a very convenient hunt for me. I see the problem of short rams and lack of other options to fix the issue other than LEH or shut it down. Education is good but even the signs posted in the area for all to see with the regs are not noticed by every sheep hunter.

I don't think Population is an issue in this area as I see what shows up after the snow flies but instead it is morally I do not support waste. Do to my personal ethics I would support the LEH

[aggiehunter]

...dial a prayer...now that there is funny....

[GoatGuy]

Was trying to avoid this, but I guess I'll get to the point as there seems to be quite a few people who believe this is an issue related to honest mistakes - it isn`t.

People who make mistakes admit they`re wrong. People who shoot short sheep, 3 pt mule deer in 4 pts seasons, 3 pt moose in 2 pt season, report it, take the fine and learn from their mistakes. These people are called hunters.

The big issue here is there are a few unethical poachers who are shooting short sheep with the hopes that going to court will get them their 'ram on the wall'. They know the story, the line to tell, with the hopes they'll be able to have their day in court and eventually win their illegal ram.

The Eng case is a good example of a ram that was short and underage. Everybody knew it, including the 'experts' and the judge sided with the crown. The ram was not legal. As I understand it the case is now being appealed, for what reasons I don't know. The bottom line is the ram is illegal - if it happened to me, I would pay the fine, do some learning and continue on with life. Instead the rest of us hunters pay the penalty through hunting season changes and as taxpayers we also pay the legal bill, which I would imagine is into the six figures.

As hunters it's in our best interests to separate ourselves from people who shoot animals which are not legal, then take it to court because they can't "man up". As conservationists and members of organizations which are supposed to represent ethical hunting practices I think we all owe it to ourselves to separate ourselves from these individuals.

It is my sincere hope some of the people reading this will take it to heart and start towing the line for ethical hunting. Keeping company of people who are shooting illegal animals and trying to win them back in the court is not in our best interests. Until we start dealing with this socially it will continue to happen.

[boxhitch]

If it has gone to appeal , how can it be about the trophy anymore ? Now its two sides digging their heels in. I suppose in principal the Gov't has to , but the other guy ? the poacher ?
Whats his pleasure ? He has a carp representing him I suppose .
I just can't think that way

[MattB]

Was trying to avoid this, but I guess I'll get to the point as there seems to be quite a few people who believe this is an issue related to honest mistakes - it isn`t.

People who make mistakes admit they`re wrong. People who shoot short sheep, 3 pt mule deer in 4 pts seasons, 3 pt moose in 2 pt season, report it, take the fine and learn from their mistakes. These people are called hunters.

The big issue here is there are a few unethical poachers who are shooting short sheep with the hopes that going to court will get them their 'ram on the wall'. They know the story, the line to tell, with the hopes they'll be able to have their day in court and eventually win their illegal ram.

The Eng case is a good example of a ram that was short and underage. Everybody knew it, including the 'experts' and the judge sided with the crown. The ram was not legal. As I understand it the case is now being appealed, for what reasons I don't know. The bottom line is the ram is illegal - if it happened to me, I would pay the fine, do some learning and continue on with life. Instead the rest of us hunters pay the penalty through hunting season changes and as taxpayers we also pay the legal bill, which I would imagine is into the six figures.

As hunters it's in our best interests to separate ourselves from people who shoot animals which are not legal, then take it to court because they can't "man up". As conservationists and members of organizations which are supposed to represent ethical hunting practices I think we all owe it to ourselves to separate ourselves from these individuals.

It is my sincere hope some of the people reading this will take it to heart and start towing the line for ethical hunting. Keeping company of people who are shooting illegal animals and trying to win them back in the court is not in our best interests. Until we start dealing with this socially it will continue to happen.

Well said Jesse!

[Buck]

So if this guy looses the appeal is he is not responsible for all the court costs including the crown?I think the answer lies in there somewhere ?

[bridger]

Was trying to avoid this, but I guess I'll get to the point as there seems to be quite a few people who believe this is an issue related to honest mistakes - it isn`t.

People who make mistakes admit they`re wrong. People who shoot short sheep, 3 pt mule deer in 4 pts seasons, 3 pt moose in 2 pt season, report it, take the fine and learn from their mistakes. These people are called hunters.

The big issue here is there are a few unethical poachers who are shooting short sheep with the hopes that going to court will get them their 'ram on the wall'. They know the story, the line to tell, with the hopes they'll be able to have their day in court and eventually win their illegal ram.

The Eng case is a good example of a ram that was short and underage. Everybody knew it, including the 'experts' and the judge sided with the crown. The ram was not legal. As I understand it the case is now being appealed, for what reasons I don't know. The bottom line is the ram is illegal - if it happened to me, I would pay the fine, do some learning and continue on with life. Instead the rest of us hunters pay the penalty through hunting season changes and as taxpayers we also pay the legal bill, which I would imagine is into the six figures.

As hunters it's in our best interests to separate ourselves from people who shoot animals which are not legal, then take it to court because they can't "man up". As conservationists and members of organizations which are supposed to represent ethical hunting practices I think we all owe it to ourselves to separate ourselves from these individuals.

It is my sincere hope some of the people reading this will take it to heart and start towing the line for ethical hunting. Keeping company of people who are shooting illegal animals and trying to win them back in the court is not in our best interests. Until we start dealing with this socially it will continue to happen.

Great insight as always

[Apolonius]

What i meant is that access creates pressure and pressure makes people do mistakes.And by the way yes rams got shot across the river, and it is legal,15 meters of the center line.Seen it twice.And talking to a hunter there he said"if i see it i will shoot it".i just said how would you know if it is legal?He show me his binoculars.That was like over 700 yards.I just left.So dont think there are not guys that did or would do that.Accros towards the rainbow yep,and the little one too.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Anyone can Google Mr Eng's name and come up with some contact info. Maybe it's time for some peer pressure?? Maybe that's a bad idea? Maybe it's a good idea?
Sure he's only one of a few that are ruining it for the rest of us but it has to stop.

Something has to change

SSS

[boxhitch]

Someone on here knows someone who knows of these poachers.
I can't imagine what their story might be , but would make for good reading.

I can hear what a tour of his trophy room would sound like "and over here is the short sheep I won in a court challenge..."

loosers

[ridge walker]

Well finally a post I feel compelled to respond to. Been a member for a while now and have only posted once before as I usually enjoy reading most of the uniformed and just plane crap from some members that obviously drive Big Jacked up trucks and cannot get their you know what past their zippers that love to hide behind a computer. Spences Bridge is very close to my heart I have had many memorable day's and nights over the 38 years I have hunted it. I have only missed hunting two years out of the past 38 years, Yes I know that many years hunting Spences may be longer than some have been alive but over those years I am disappointed in what has happen to "bar none" one of the most unique Sheep herds in North America. From the genetics of the first sheep transplant came some of the most outstanding opportunities to hunt some of the largest rams in the world under a GOS. Some of you may remember the head mounts that hung in the local gas station. In the late 70's and early 80's it was not much problem to see a 2 dozen class iv rams on a single hunt and at that time there was a low stastainable harvest with vertually no illegal kills. The illegal kills did not really start showing up until the mid 90's and more so in the early 2000's increasing until the present 50% or higher annual harvest. Same thing with the annual harvest, stayed at a consitant stastainable harvest for years maintaining a proper all age class struture until a big spike in harvest for a couple years along with the illegal harvest, new domestic sheep herds and then first Nations got on the band wagon. I have hunted basically everywhere in 3-17 and most years was only seen when I wanted to be seen, some years spending a couple day's out on the front just to catch up on the local gossip. As the years went by I was getting more and more concerned with what I was observing and about 5 years ago after a very depressing 5 day's of hunting and seeing very few ram's especially up the Botanie I went into Lytton to the local Band office and had a meeting with the Chief about my concerns it turn she handed me over to their wildlife Manager. During the conversation of my concerns he told me that members of their band never used to harvest Rams infact they used to ride right by huge rams on their horses and just look at them. Then one day one member shot a ram and the next thing all the members wanted rams, that first year there was over dozen rams taken just out of the Botanie and close to the same number the following year. The next day I drove to Spences Bridge and had a meeting with their Chief although a very brief meeting I was told that there was not much interest in their members in harvesting sheep.
I have attended many public meetings around different management stratagy's on 3-17 but got quite discussed with the continued pressure to keep open GOS oppertunity as the priority instead of the over all health of the population. I cannot blame some of the people on that position as they obviously never saw the best day's of the herd at Spences. For the last few years the wildlife managers recognized the issues and wanted to go to a any ram LEH but would get beat up at the meetings and cave into the selfish hunters that just wanted to keep it GOS so they could find the last remaining class iv ram on the mountain. It is with great hope that I see above on the Poll results that it is 50/50 for LEH and conservation will prevail. I have hunted Spences Bridge more than most and would be the first to support a stricker management strategy. I see some on here have tried to install the "fear factor" into many that they would never ever get drawn if it goes LEH, (funny the same person gets drawn for Grizzly Bear often) fact is there is a lot of other area's that are open GOS and will continue if the managers take appropriate methods before herds get into this condition. I fully support a LEH any ram season and am always envious of the permit holders but good on them! I can always hunt sheep every year somewhere in the Province. I have seen the many benifits that the any ram season has, biggest is the total controll over the number of harvest, great opportunity for youth hunters if drawn (try and take a young girl or boy hunting sheep on a horn restriction). NO illegal kills there for no enforcement issues, part of the harvest is always some younger rams and that acomplishes two fold, first it leaves some of the older rams and second it harvest some of the younger rams that would never make it though natural mortally.
My continued concerns for 3-17 would be to develope a long range recovery plan which would include LEH any ram season along with developing relationships with the local First Nations/deal with domestic sheep issue/fencing along the Hyway right a Spences Bridge and then when that is accomplished bring in some new sheep blood into the herd. I understand that most people are entranched in their own thoughs but here are some of mine, if there is a season or not any season I will always still go there to hunt them in some other manner than just a rifle.

[frenchbar]

Is their a count on what the first nations take for rams out of that unit 3-17?...other bands members hunt sheep there other than the 2 you mentioned ridge walker.

[GoatGuy]

Will try to articulate a little better. This issue isn't with the harvest levels - from the perspective of conservation harvest isn't the issue. The hunting might not be as good as it once was, however that isn't a reflection of conservation or 'sustainable harvest levels'. This discussion and the acute problem actually has nothing to do with conservation, rather everything to do with court cases.

Court cases are time consuming and expensive and all this for people who are harvesting illegal sheep. It's a resource drain for wildlife managers, conservation officers and the crown when it has to prosecute cases. If these court challenges for illegal sheep continues big government will put it's foot down and we will end up with significantly diminished hunting opportunities for sheep across the province.

If the harvest was unsustainable the regulations would have to be changed. The problem we're dealing with is social and economic, not conservation related.

[ridge walker]

frenchbar: there is no count or accountability with the bands as they do not disclose their harvest numbers. This could only be achieved thru meanfull discussions engaged with the ministry/recognized organizations and sportsman that want or care about this herd to work towards a new management plan with First Nations involvement. You are also absolutely correct there are also other bands that look at this area as part of their traditional area's but the bulk of the harvest is from the southern bands.
GoatGuy: sorry to hijack the theme of the thread but the impacts to this herd is many fold with translating to my conservation concerns. To comment about the beginning of the thread the answer is no, it's not just this one case that is having the ministry consider other management options but only one of the nailes in the coffin. I am very familar with this case as the crown prosecutor approached me to testify. This sheep hunter had the balls to e-mail me a picture and wanted to have me age/judge his ram from a picture, what I told him is exactually what he did not want to hear and also where it is was shot. This is not a new discussion within the ministry based on this one court case but the many issues that have arised from many years of abuse and herd condition. Court cases do have a influence on hunting regulations as when the crown loses a case then it becomes very hard to ever charge another person again becoming case law, ie: age requirement in the Kootney's Bighorns. I respectly disagree with you that this is not a conservation issue. Harvest does become a conservation issue when the legal/illegal and unregulated first nations harvest is exceding the recruitment. By losing the majority of your class iv rams is telling you something. just the illegal kill numbers alone over the past 20 years are very significant let alone all the other past noted impacts. Fact is Sheep management does heavely depend on recruitment of the gender of the species you are harvesting. The over all population numbers of Spences Bridge were at their high in the late 1980's and have staedly decreased since. There are other factors that are impacting this herd also that we are not totally aware off. Fact is this population needs some help!!!!
P.S. good luck Grizzly hunting.

[GoatGuy]

frenchbar: there is no count or accountability with the bands as they do not disclose their harvest numbers. This could only be achieved thru meanfull discussions engaged with the ministry/recognized organizations and sportsman that want or care about this herd to work towards a new management plan with First Nations involvement. You are also absolutely correct there are also other bands that look at this area as part of their traditional area's but the bulk of the harvest is from the southern bands.
GoatGuy: sorry to hijack the theme of the thread but the impacts to this herd is many fold with translating to my conservation concerns. To comment about the beginning of the thread the answer is no, it's not just this one case that is having the ministry consider other management options but only one of the nailes in the coffin. I am very familar with this case as the crown prosecutor approached me to testify. This sheep hunter had the balls to e-mail me a picture and wanted to have me age/judge his ram from a picture, what I told him is exactually what he did not want to hear and also where it is was shot. This is not a new discussion within the ministry based on this one court case but the many issues that have arised from many years of abuse and herd condition. Court cases do have a influence on hunting regulations as when the crown loses a case then it becomes very hard to ever charge another person again becoming case law, ie: age requirement in the Kootney's Bighorns. I respectly disagree with you that this is not a conservation issue. Harvest does become a conservation issue when the legal/illegal and unregulated first nations harvest is exceding the recruitment. By losing the majority of your class iv rams is telling you something. just the illegal kill numbers alone over the past 20 years are very significant let alone all the other past noted impacts. Fact is Sheep management does heavely depend on recruitment of the gender of the species you are harvesting. The over all population numbers of Spences Bridge were at their high in the late 1980's and have staedly decreased since. There are other factors that are impacting this herd also that we are not totally aware off. Fact is this population needs some help!!!!
P.S. good luck Grizzly hunting.

Your changes probably have a pile to do with phenotypes and the response to habitat. In relatively new and growing populations you find a significantly different dynamic than stable or declining populations in terms of horn growth and representation. I would imagine you've seen the same thing in the Okanagan in areas after the die-off. The focus for hunting relating mortality on bighorns is still showing up as 8+, not across the entire age group, so the 'non-selective' strategy doesn't seem to be conducive to what you indicated. Anyways, the science side of things for sheep, particularly bighorns, is improving all the time. The metrics are there and the needs for conservation are pretty well established. If we aren't meeting our criteria for conservation it's a no brainer.

The any ram LEH is a participation killer. While it is great for the individual who gets drawn and the outfitter who has the outfit in the area, for 80-90% of the people who apply over their lifetime and will never get drawn it means people who don't hunt sheep, don't know about sheep and lastly don't care about sheep. Sheep habitat (and sheep) won't be taken care of by a handful of people who have been drawn and a couple of outfitters that get tags. It isn't a sustainable model particularly given the pressure we have from development.

Nevertheless the problem here is about two issues, the first being individuals who shoot short sheep and secondly individuals who take government to court after they've harvested illegal animals. They both need to be dealt with and as hunters we really need to start separating the wheat from the chaff. I would imagine you agree people who are negatively impacting all the people of the province because they want a short ram on the wall probably aren't the same folks we want to be associated with, right?

No LEH this spring?

[boxhitch]

the first being poachers who shoot short sheep and secondly poachers who take government to court after they've harvested illegal animals.fixed it. We have to lay the hamer down on these guys.

[boxhitch]

RW , did you hunt Spences for 35 years specifically for the big Rockies or because you could go anytime on a GOS ? How many trips would you have made on a 100:1 odds draw ? 400:1 ?

The reported ram harvest has been a small component of the overall population , and actually has been over a fairly wide age range, which always leaves some old guys to get older.
LEH any ram wouldn't be perfect either , so much would depend on the mindset of the hunters involved, and success rates would be skewed so permit numbers would always be a gamble.

[bruin]

There's no perfect answer, nothing will satisfy all user groups. I support the current GOS season as the closest thing to it, until such time as it becomes a conservation concern. Education of the few is our strongest tool.

[ridge walker]

boxhitch: I hunted Spences for 36 different years for my own enjoyment and choose to only harvest two rams in all those years. I do the same thing as "you" when you are guiding your hunters, specifically looking for the Big rams. Like I said before if I was not drawn a permit I still could hunt sheep in the province every year somewhere.

GoatGuy: We all have our own thoughts and your philosophy on people abandoning sheep populations because of being on draw or limited use is just non-sense. There is more time/energy & money spent on increasing herds and recovery of disease stricken herds than stable herds. It's very clear that you speak from ignorance and have never partisipated in any regional or provincial sheep commitee's or sheep recovery projects in this province as I have done over the last 38 years, where you would see that more than a "handfull" of people & organizations come to the table to look after sheep including our friends from the south. I also suggest that you send a memo down to all the Sheep managers in the U.S. that their sheep Model is not "sustainable" as 99% of the herds are managed under Ram draw seasons and yes they are the Bio's & Scientist that have developed the best science/Model's on bighorn sheep management & recovery, this is where our Bio's frequently go for advice.
No sense in debating with the debater, I have posted three times in the last two day's and that is more than I have done for the last 5 years, so have fun boy's I am back to looking into the window lisening to all the experts!!!!!!!!
And yes I will see you on the slides!!!!!

[GoatGuy]

I try to stick to the science and the numbers - you remember that don't you? :wink: Not much of a generalist, particularly when what I'm saying is unsubstantiated and 180 degrees out from reality...... :mrgreen:

Personally, I don't consider all the houses being built behind your place sustainable for sheep in the long-term, nor the highway collisions, domestic sheep issues and habitat degradation, but I suppose everyone views life through different coloured glasses.

Getting back to the issue, I was kinda of hoping for a response on this: "the problem here is about two issues, the first being individuals who shoot short sheep and secondly individuals who take government to court after they've harvested illegal animals. They both need to be dealt with and as hunters we really need to start separating the wheat from the chaff. I would imagine you agree people who are negatively impacting all the people of the province because they want a short ram on the wall probably aren't the same folks we want to be associated with, right?"

You're onboard with this and would support it, right? It really is at the crux of the issue - I was hoping you'd be behind this.