COUGARS: the average joe.

[Ambush]

After the regular season has ended, it's predator time for many. That always leads up to quite a few lively and often polarized debates on HBC.

Seems cougar hunting is lot like sheep hunting. Or perhaps better put; cougar hunters are a lot like sheep hunters. Each seem to jealously guard their activity and knowledge. The average Joe will usually come up against the standard "put your time in, wear out some boots, put on some miles", etc. While that is more possible for sheep, elk, deer, it's almost impossible in the case of cougar.

If I'm sitting in a treestand or blind or even just walking and a cougar wanders into range, how can I tell if it's "shootable"? Other than checking for kittens, how can a hunter judge if it's an average tom or mature female or even a good representative cat?

There has been furious debate, on HBC, over very clear pictures of tracks posted. Some say dog, some say cat, with some experienced cat guys laughing, derisively, at the amateurs. Then to take it up a notch, the "uber catter" will "tsk tsk" the man that can't even tell a tom track from a female!!

Now that's fine if you want to keep your hard earned knowledge to yourself, but then to call down someone who shoots or hunts a cat that doesn't measure up to the hounders standard is really unfair. Comments like; "did you wipe the milk off it's face?' "did you make the kittens watch?" "at least you can hold up with one hand".

So rather than make fun of the less experienced, why not help? With all the tracks the cat chasers are on, there must be some very clear pictures of cat tracks. How do you tell a tom from a female? Track size, pad shape, gait or a combination? Can you distinguish between the sex's, on a visual, by body shape, head size or other characteristics? Other than having the critter in a tree and looking under the tail, what indicators are there?

Not having any experience, and probably no opportunity to get any, I'm going to take any legal cat that gives me the chance. I mean, how many times am I going to be within bow range of a cougar? But I'd rather it be a decent sized male.

So, can some of the experienced chasers provide some real education that the average joe can use to increase his chances of taking a "suitable" cat?
Words are good, pictures with captions rule.

[KB90]

Good thread Ambush, I made a similar one couple weeks ago, and theres a couple pictures in it. http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?91213-Cougar-Tracks-Cat-Hunt

[Ambush]

I made a similar one couple weeks ago, and theres a couple pictures in it. http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?91213-Cougar-Tracks-Cat-Hunt

I've been watching that thread Kyle, thanks for starting it. Hopefully, someone will break ranks and offer some concrete, usable information.

[Gateholio]

Not having any experience, and probably no opportunity to get any, I'm going to take any legal cat that gives me the chance. I mean, how many times am I going to be within bow range of a cougar?

I'd suggest any hunter do the same.

If all hunters held off shooting legal animals just to satisfy what a more experienced hunter deems as acceptable, nobody would ever get their first deer. I just about always buy a cougar tag and if I see a legal one, I'm going to shoot.

[dana]

I believe you are actually intrepruting things wrong when you think houndsmen won't give up info. As mentioned on KB's thread, the chances of being accussed of illegal guiding is super huge when it comes to houndsmen and bringing out newbies. Even an exchange for gas can be taken as payment. Most houndsmen don't want to be associated with the hint of illegal activity so they laugh at the various threads that come up each and every year with joeblow hunters that want to 'kill' a lion. Put yourself in a houndsmen's shoes. Do you think the gobs of time spent training, chasing lost dogs, year round food bills, vet bills ect are all worth it to 'help' someone on the internet 'kill' a cat just so they can have some trophy on the wall? Currently there are some mean ass cats out there because the wolf pops are super high and the wolves steal the lions kills. After loosing kill after kill, the cat gets fed up and fights instead of trees. Do you think a houndsmen should risk huge vet bills and/or death to his dog over some internet want-to-be's that feel they need to have a cat on their wall?

[SHAKER]

I believe you are actually intrepruting things wrong when you think houndsmen won't give up info. As mentioned on KB's thread, the chances of being accussed of illegal guiding is super huge when it comes to houndsmen and bringing out newbies. Even an exchange for gas can be taken as payment. Most houndsmen don't want to be associated with the hint of illegal activity so they laugh at the various threads that come up each and every year with joeblow hunters that want to 'kill' a lion. Put yourself in a houndsmen's shoes. Do you think the gobs of time spent training, chasing lost dogs, year round food bills, vet bills ect are all worth it to 'help' someone on the internet 'kill' a cat just so they can have some trophy on the wall? Currently there are some mean ass cats out there because the wolf pops are super high and the wolves steal the lions kills. After loosing kill after kill, the cat gets fed up and fights instead of trees. Do you think a houndsmen should risk huge vet bills and/or death to his dog over some internet want-to-be's that feel they need to have a cat on their wall?

Funny how I"m starting to agree with you more and more. Tonns of people want to ride the coat tails so to speak, but I find hound people usually a very social group IF you are a hound dog guy yourself.

[killman]

I find it funny that is is always the the guys with Dogs that are the first to say "Don't go out and get dogs! They are this and that..." Are they just trying to discourage anyone from cutting in on there fun. Why do they figure no one else is able or responsible enough to own and look after a few hounds? I say if you have the time money and space go buy yourself a bunch of hounds and get out there.

[Gateholio]

I don't see Ambushs post as anything other than having experienced cat hunters give advice on proper animal identification. Nowhere do I see him saying anything about believing that houndsmen should take people from the internet hunting.

If you want to hunt cougars but don't have or plan to own dogs, find an area with fresh cougar sign and start calling. Success rate is low, but it does happen.

[Ambush]

I believe you are actually intrepruting things wrong when you think houndsmen won't give up info./ ......../Do you think a houndsmen should risk huge vet bills and/or death to his dog over some internet want-to-be's that feel they need to have a cat on their wall?

I think you're interpreting the post wrong. I'm not [nor is KB90] asking for a dog guy to take me out. I'm sure all of them have enough actual friends that want to go. That would be awesome but I know I have a better chance of getting the Kamloops Lake sheep draw.

I'm asking for pictures and REAL advice. How is that going to get a dog killed? Vague statements like ".. check the tracks to make sure it's a tom" before wasting time on it, is not helpful, if that same person doesn't tell/show you how to determine the difference.

Catch 22. I won't take you out 'cause you got no experience and you won't get that experience 'cause I won't take you out.

[The Dude]

All Ambush is saying is "Share some knowledge".
Not "Get me out on a free hunt with your expensive dogs"
Take a breath and count to 10.

[dana]

You say you are not asking to be taken out and then you end with the Catch22 statement. You won't be taken out not because you don't have experience. You won't be taken out because you don't have hounds and the risk of being accussed of illegal guiding is too high for most houndsmen. Buy a hound and ask for advice and someone to tag along with to get you and your dog experience and you will have a totally different response.

It has been mentioned many a time the odds of killing a lion without hounds are pretty much slim to none. So why would a cougar hunter explain tracks and sex id to people who will never get to use it. IDing a cat is pretty easy when it is up a tree. Totally different when it is on the ground. To someone that has never seen cats before, even a sub-adult will appear large to them. But when you've actually seen small, medium, large and extra large, it is really easy to tell the difference. Being under numerous trees gets ya this experience. If you are only going to see 1 cat in 15 years of trying to 'call' them in, how are you going to gain any experience on judging small versus large? It is pretty easy judging tracks if you take the time to actually learn. No different than judging deer tracks. Big toms typically have big feet. The same goes with big bucks. If you have never looked at much more than a couple sets of lion tracks, how does one explain on the internet what is big or small? Go out and actually find tracks. Learn them. What is fresh? What is old? What is a female versus a big tom? Follow them. See if other smaller tracks join them. This would mean a female with kits. Compare the female size to other sizes you encounter throughout the year. Learn by doing, not by someone on the internet telling you. There are enough threads on this site without having to even use Google that will give more detail, but how hard is it to use Google too?

[rocksteady]

From all of my internet research, the one way to tell if its a Tom or a tit, is to measure the stride. A stride over 40" is usually a male...

Thats all I got...

[Ambush]

Thanks dana, you've been most helpfull.

[dana]

I find it funny that is is always the the guys with Dogs that are the first to say "Don't go out and get dogs! They are this and that..." Are they just trying to discourage anyone from cutting in on there fun. Why do they figure no one else is able or responsible enough to own and look after a few hounds? I say if you have the time money and space go buy yourself a bunch of hounds and get out there.

I seem to hear lots of adds on TV and the radio at Christmas with Pet stores and the SPCA telling people not to buy dogs for Christmas. Why???? Are they just trying to take away people's fun? Nope, they are trying to get people from buying a dog on impulse and then when all the work begins after Christmas, they want to give the dog away. A dog is a big responsiblity. A hound, way way more. How many hounds are bought by people who see some lion pictures on the internet and suddenly think they can do that too? Impulse buying dogs instead of actually taking the time to think it out. If you want hounds, by all means, get them. But be prepared for a ton of work and be prepared that your neighbours might want to kill you. ;)

[Ambush]

From all of my internet research, the one way to tell if its a Tom or a tit, is to measure the stride. A stride over 40" is usually a male....

Thanks rock. I've read about stride length to, on some US hound sites, when looking for a big cat. I haven't read that the hind tracks may be narrower on a male, similar to deer. Anybody offer an opinion on that?

[houndogger]

I don't take stride into account for anything myself. My hunting partner does but a cats stride changes all the time. Sometimes they pussy foot around sometimes they stretch out. I just measure a clear front foot pad. If you have something that will measure 2 5/8 or bigger you have a mature Tom. Just what I do others do it differently.

[horshur]

everything you would need to know has been said on this forum 100 times or more over the years.....take some of it and go check for yourself whether it is true or not....real time experience will separate the wheat from the chaff.

the journey is always more important then the destination!!!

[BlacktailStalker]

40" lol ? Try 25-28" on a big tom. 28" is a ****ing pig, walking on flat ground. All mature toms go 2 3/8". 2 4/8" is better than your average tom and 2 5/8" is a ****ing pig (we're talking rear pads, not front) I've only heard of two 2 6/8" toms and that's from a guy who has killed (guided) close to 400 better than average toms.
This is why the cat game is so technical (can be, its fun!) such minute details that seem so moot but not the case at all, to those that care.

Few if any mature females will measure over let alone 2 2/8", that is the fine line measuring point as to what you're looking at (big female or sub tom) before you're looking at it. Even a sub tom that measures that will have the stride of a tom and different toes than a female ( if you really want to put your time in for a tom)
75% of females are pregnant packing kittens, feeding kittens or hunting for/with juveniles.

You wont be able to pattern a cat, that is the tough part, they are always moving around.
Your best chance at getting a cat is try to follow one on a morning it snowed late, on a track with no snow on it. This could (will) mean putting on hundreds (or thousands) of kms to do so. If you stumbled on a kill that would be ideal, however they feed at night so getting there before dark won't do you much good. Many times they will bed a few hundred feet away, you could try stalking one off its kill in the morning, they might be full, curious and reluctant to run if the wind is in your favour ?
Be prepared... Cats can have major attitude and they're the best killers in the woods :)

[rocksteady]

Don't lol at me, that is the info I got from the net, I did not say it was true..

[The Hermit]

Another way to get an invite is to offer to tag along on a number of chasing days with no intention or expectation of killing, just learning. As I understand, it tail-chasers chase tail all the time but kill infrequently. They like to have a good population to work their dogs on... and its unreal exercise. I still feel deeply privileged to have been invited along on those terms and then to have actually taken a cat still blows my mind! One of the best hunting experiences ever! I'm ready to go again anytime just to get out and take some pictures!

[srupp]

I personally couldnt believe how much work it takes to take care of these 4 legged athletes...6 or so dogs..the feed and the time to excercise and train these dogs..the medicine and the vet bills the tracking collars..kennels.. dog boxes sheesh on and on..just the excercise along to keep these dogs on the top of the curve for fitness..because truly their lives depend on it...it certainly was an eye opener..and the love and dedication for their dogs..knowing just one bad cat or bad day and he could lose some or most of his investments and friends..I also was completly surprised at how friendly they were didnt know what to expect from these intense dogs that can run all day..but friendly and affectionate..stamina and power..amazing...and as Steve already said..pretty near impossible to do it without them...and there are good ones and then there are great ones..hunting cats was certainly one of THE top highlights of my entire hunting experience....and the guy that leads the team is so very important..

steven

[Spokerider]

everything you would need to know has been said on this forum 100 times or more over the years.....take some of it and go check for yourself whether it is true or not....real time experience will separate the wheat from the chaff.

the journey is always more important then the destination!!!



Well said.

Exactly WHAT do you want to know? Cougar habits? Range and territory? Mating habits? Prefered diet? Vocal sounds? etc, etc?
All of that and more can be researched on the net and in books and other publications.
If you're wanting to know where to find a lion in your neck of the woods, well, your own "predatory locating insight" as to where to find one is as good as anybodys. Knowing where they live and finding one at home are two very, very different things however. Ever observe the secretive behavior a feral cat in the two acre parcel of scrub behind your house? A feral cat could live there for a long time before you ever discover it, if you didn't know it was there. Ditto for lion.

As others have mentioned.........find a track or kill and put some miles on the boots. Locate a farmer that has lost livestock, or the rural pet owner that has mysteriously *lost* their dog, follow up on eyewitness lion sightings and do some hiking / sleuthing, set up trail cams,......enjoy the learning curve. At this point in your quest, don't worry if it's a she or tom, large track or small track, get out and learn. Bring your camera, bring your lab or collie ot whatever on leash.........a lion hound they are not, but they still have a better nose than we do.

[srupp]

had a cougar poking its nose around some friends home..likely looking to make a snack out of their 2 small furball yapper dogs..have had a trail cam there for a month nada cat must have moved on hopefully..
srr

[Ambush]

Funny, I was out today snowshoeing in to gather trailcam cards. A coyote had just recently walked my old trail and parallel to and sometimes cris-crossing was what I assume was a lynx track, also fresh. I followed it out until it hit the thick uphill brush. Not snowshoe friendly. The tracks sunk in about 2" and had drag marks nearly connecting each print. It s been warm here the last several days and the snow has settled down to about 30". Didn't have a camera, of course.

Thanks to the guys that are willing to at least offer some insight.

As far as the advice to "get on the internet". Ahhh... this is the internet.

But to the few fellows that think they "own" the rights to the cats by shear virtue of keeping hounds, consider this. I'm sure every dedicated dog guy is aware of all the states that don't allow pursuit for cats or bears anymore. Pretty easy ballot box sell for the anti's. Bunch of snarling dogs and several armed rednecks with a lone cat or bear up a tree waiting to die. And we all know that any success by the anti's, anywhere, will be used everywhere there is still hunting.

When the pressure is on here to ban cougar hunting, with hounds, why should your average guy, the guy you figure doesn't deserve a cat, stand with you?
Because we're all hunters in it together??? :confused: Unfortunately, the good and the bad will go down as one.

Yeah, I'm getting old and sometimes a little impatient and cranky.

[Blockcaver]

The toes on a decent tom's track look a lot larger to me than a young tom or female....like "very large grapes, not medium grapes". The stride comment on a decent tom having a 40" stride is another indicator that worked for us. I ran around with hound hunters for about 20 years but never had hounds myself. Good winter sport!

[chilcotin hillbilly]

thats all good stuff Andy. I have never seen a female with more then a 2 " back pad unless things have melted out.

[Husky7mm]

People have called in cougars with a predator call, I am sure most of the time it results in coyotes, but every once in a while you get lucky. Do you feel lucky?

[rides bike to work]

It's to bad many on here haven't been more helpfull I don't know much about cougars but have followed a few tracks and have spotted three cats one thing I did that worked was after finding a fresh track one morning I posted it on here and asked if there was any hounds men in the area that wanted to chase a cat and I actually got a pm by the evening I called the guy we talked about the area but we were both busy the next day and you want to get on the track fresh track turns out these cat guys can't turn down a large fresh trtrack

to those who replied negatively keep it to yourself being called a wanabe and other negative comments does nothing for the sport . If your son asked the same question I'm sure you would reply differently

[albravo2]

Good thread Ambush, thanks for starting.

I find it a bit odd that some folks are reluctant to offer advice because they, or someone they know, has hounds. I think a request for information on the topic is fair ball.

We're all on here to give where we can and ask for what we need. I've found people in most instances very helpful.

For the record, I do have two untrained lab/bloodhound sisters and countless unhappy neighbours. A hound baying is music only to a hunter, especially before daybreak. I have enough difficulty and expense training my children so the dogs remain as pets.

[Ambush]

Thanks BTS. Sounds like there's not much difference in track size to the untrained eye. Are the sizes mentioned on firm ground? Some of the tracks I've seen, I likely mistook for lynx believing a cougar would be much larger.

I think I'll search the net for a printable, true size cougar track and carry it with me.

Then I'll take the Bike Riders advice and look for guys with dogs around PG. Never know, I may find a hot track.

[dana]

Why do you think negative comments are bad??? I gave negative but REALISTIC comments. Do you want us to blow some sunshine up your ASS and tell ya sweet things about how easy it is to kill a cat without hounds??? Get Real. Hunting isn't supposed to be easy all the time. If you ain't willing to do the work yourself, you probably will see very little success. I'm willing to bet most guys with a wealth of knowledge and experience gained that knowledge and experience the hard way, they learned by doing.

[BlacktailStalker]

thats all good stuff Andy. I have never seen a female with more then a 2 " back pad unless things have melted out.

I got to see one, in Alberta and she was a full 1/8" bigger on the boot than any other ! I kid you not she must have been 115 maybe even 120lbs, couldn't believe our eyes.

[BlacktailStalker]

Thanks BTS. Sounds like there's not much difference in track size to the untrained eye. Are the sizes mentioned on firm ground? Some of the tracks I've seen, I likely mistook for lynx believing a cougar would be much larger.

I think I'll search the net for a printable, true size cougar track and carry it with me.

Then I'll take the Bike Riders advice and look for guys with dogs around PG. Never know, I may find a hot track.

Buy one of those .99 cent tape measures at cdn tire. Yes on firm snow or dirt. The pads never grow unless they are melted out, no room for error. Toes don't mean anything, yeah they vary in shape and size (big toe tad smaller pad and vice versa) but cats do all sorts of things with their toes in all sorts of conditions (like splay them an inch apart when walking on wet snow giving them the appearance of a monster cat to the eye, hence the old 'fist to track measurement' which is rougher than most houndoggers themselves for comparisons) , they even... brace yourself!... use their claws at times for traction when running on slippery ground ! (but cats NEVER show their claws in a track?)

[limit time]

Why do you think negative comments are bad??? I gave negative but REALISTIC comments. Do you want us to blow some sunshine up your ASS and tell ya sweet things about how easy it is to kill a cat without hounds??? Get Real. Hunting isn't supposed to be easy all the time. If you ain't willing to do the work yourself, you probably will see very little success. I'm willing to bet most guys with a wealth of knowledge and experience gained that knowledge and experience the hard way, they learned by doing.

Did you do all the work your self? Or did you "apprentice" with someone?

[dana]

I'm not much of a lion hunter, don't have a lot of time in the winter because I work, but I still get out and have fun with the dog. And yes, being on your own, just you and your dog, working things out through trial and error, is the best way to learn for the both of you.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Good thread Ambush, thanks for starting.

I find it a bit odd that some folks are reluctant to offer advice because they, or someone they know, has hounds. I think a request for information on the topic is fair ball.

We're all on here to give where we can and ask for what we need. I've found people in most instances very helpful.

For the record, I do have two untrained lab/bloodhound sisters and countless unhappy neighbours. A hound baying is music only to a hunter, especially before daybreak. I have enough difficulty and expense training my children so the dogs remain as pets.

You need to train your dogs better, eight hounds in my kennel and for the most part you don't know they are there.........unless the wolves howl. :shock:

[Mulehahn]

Gonna get lambasted but here goes! What elevates cougars so far above everything else in the predator hunting category? To me a large wolf is a better and harder earned trophy. There are very few people who will still try to run a wolf pack down with hounds (with reason). It is strictly you versus 8 - 20 ears and eyes, not to mention the noses. In my years I have seen about 10 cougars, and to date and grand total of 6 wolves. I suppose that is because of the area I hunt, but still. They are out there, and you can find them without hounds. Further, seldom does a person who does an honest check for cub and shoots a sow BB get so ripped on as someone who even mentions shooting a lone female cougar. I am not an expert on cougars, but I have known a few sows with cubs up a tree a fair distance from a them which unless you knew that particular bear you would never know she had cubs. You can pretty much guarantee that if I see a legal cougar, am armed and have a tag it will go down. The OP asked for help in how to identify a tom track from a female and how to determine size. If he wants to try, let him. I am sure he knows hounds would help, but if he wants to try with out them why not help him. He never asked for any secret spots, or a free ride. When I read it I see a guy saying "I am willing to put the time in and hope for a miracle, but any help would be appreciated!"

[SHAKER]

simply put... you want to know what a "good" cougar track looks like .... when you see it you'll know! the rest is tough to explain but if you put your thumbs and first fingers toghether and try to srattle a beer can threw the hole you have my technique. IF you can touch your thumbs and first fingers it's not a big o'l cat.... if I see the 1" rule ( meaning 1" between your fingers and your thumbs to surround the track your have a cat worth look'n at.

[SHAKER]

I'm not much of a lion hunter, don't have a lot of time in the winter because I work, but I still get out and have fun with the dog. And yes, being on your own, just you and your dog, working things out through trial and error, is the best way to learn for the both of you. it is a good way and if your not a dink about it others will help you along the way. but it's a road of hard knocks and trial and error unless someone will school you on it.

[dellis]

[/B]
You need to train your dogs better, eight hounds in my kennel and for the most part you don't know they are there.........unless the wolves howl. :shock:
Mine are not even 5 months old yet, and I'm no expert hound trainer, but when I say shut up, they do. They are a whole lot smarter dogs than most give them credit for. The only time mine are loud is when I'm on the way out the door with their breakfast:mrgreen:

Darcy

[albravo2]

[/B]
You need to train your dogs better, eight hounds in my kennel and for the most part you don't know they are there.........unless the wolves howl. :shock:

In fairness to the girls, they don't make much noise unless someone is on the property or they are on the scent of something. My biggest problem has been when a 'coon or a bear wanders through the yard at night and they take off on the trail when I let them out to relieve themselves in the morning. A fenced yard would be a great idea.

Having said that, you're right, I should train the dogs better. I've spent a fair bit of time training and they are pretty good in a controlled environment but I haven't been able to overcome their instinct to track when they are off-leash.

Like a lot of the posters on here, I'd love to hear the sound of a pack on a hunt. It must make the hair on the back of your neck stand straight up. Of all the different types of hunter I envy the houndsmen the most.

[325]

Why do you think negative comments are bad??? I gave negative but REALISTIC comments. Do you want us to blow some sunshine up your ASS and tell ya sweet things about how easy it is to kill a cat without hounds??? Get Real. Hunting isn't supposed to be easy all the time. If you ain't willing to do the work yourself, you probably will see very little success. I'm willing to bet most guys with a wealth of knowledge and experience gained that knowledge and experience the hard way, they learned by doing.

Hmm. I suppose you'll never ask for advice from anyone one this forum about species you have little experience hunting??

[Ambush]

I received some very good tips and some "real time" photos from an HBC hounder. Great stuff, thanks!

I have very likely seen more cat sign than I realized. It's obvious that I have to spend more time on my hands and knees when checking the sign. When you're used to seeing coyote and wolf tracks/crap it's easy to just assume that's what left what you're looking at.

A number of years ago, I was hunting the Churn area with my young-at-the-time son. We had a visual on a young buck and we had him coming to some persistent calling. I wanted the buck fairly close and in the open for as easy shot for my son.
Then behind us and within twenty yards comes a very deep rumbling growl. We both turned and saw a cougar jump up and take off. He had obviously stalked the "deer" he heard but then caught our scent. Exciting enough to make us forget about the deer and stand up. Good story for us both and he got a much better buck the next day.

Thanks for the tips from all the contributors. By next winter season, with all my new knowledge, I'm sure I'll be able to find and identify a good cat's home range and then run him up a tree for an easy bow shot. :-D :mrgreen:

Wouldn't that just make everybody sick.:-D

[325]

I received some very good tips and some "real time" photos from an HBC hounder. Great stuff, thanks!

I have very likely seen more cat sign than I realized. It's obvious that I have to spend more time on my hands and knees when checking the sign. When you're used to seeing coyote and wolf tracks/crap it's easy to just assume that's what left what you're looking at.

A number of years ago, I was hunting the Churn area with my young-at-the-time son. We had a visual on a young buck and we had him coming to some persistent calling. I wanted the buck fairly close and in the open for as easy shot for my son.
Then behind us and within twenty yards comes a very deep rumbling growl. We both turned and saw a cougar jump up and take off. He had obviously stalked the "deer" he heard but then caught our scent. Exciting enough to make us forget about the deer and stand up. Good story for us both and he got a much better buck the next day.

Thanks for the tips from all the contributors. By next winter season, with all my new knowledge, I'm sure I'll be able to find and identify a good cat's home range and then run him up a tree for an easy bow shot. :-D :mrgreen:

Wouldn't that just make everybody sick.:-D

If anybody can do it, you can!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

A guy I know told me (ya, ya.... I know) that one of his clients has killed 6 cougars over the yrs without hounds. Jumped off kills and barked up trees, called-in... and a random encounter or two.
True? Good question....but it can be done.

On Friday I had the pleasure of getting under my first cougar in a tree. Pretty amazing to watch the hounds a work! There's no stopping their will!

SSS

[dana]

Hmm. I suppose you'll never ask for advice from anyone one this forum about species you have little experience hunting??

I can't recall asking for much hunting advice ever on this site. Don't see a need to do that in the future either. For me, piecing the puzzle together is what makes hunting fun. It seems too many hunters in this modern age want the answers handed to them on a silver plater without ever learning a thing for themselves. I personally view that as sad.

[rocksteady]

I can't recall asking for much hunting advice ever on this site. Don't see a need to do that in the future either. For me, piecing the puzzle together is what makes hunting fun. It seems too many hunters in this modern age want the answers handed to them on a silver plater without ever learning a thing for themselves. I personally view that as sad.

If everyone thought like you Dana, we would not need or enjoy the site as much as a lot enjoy.

You may not want to learn from others, and that's fine by me, but why pee on others parade? You can always just ignore the post if you don't want to contribute. I suspect you may do that with my post.

:)

[The Hermit]

Ambush - Next year I'm going to have to put up a great prize for the biggest Tom killed with a bow and unaided by dogs! My money is on you! :-)

[dana]

Rocksteady,
How did I pee on someone's parade????

[rocksteady]

Go back and read your post #31, does not sound very supportive in any way...

[J_T]

Ambush, the only coug I've taken I took in the late deer archery season. We did have dogs but never let them off the leash. Found the tracks in fresh snow and simply followed them all day. Took the 8'2" Tom with a recurve.

Each year we hunt the late season with cougar tags in the pocket. This year after a few days of harvesting, we had cats howling in the daylight. One of our trail cams got a night shot of 3 cats in the same image.

Each year we lose a couple of deer to cats. They are never far away. Good to have a tag in the pocket.

[dana]

Go back and read your post #31, does not sound very supportive in any way...

I actually see that as good advice. Learn by doing!

[1980skywalker]

Dana you obviously know your stuff as you are quite willing to brag about your accomplishments in countless posts, unfortunately your attitude comes off as extremely arrogant. Personally I would never ask you for advice and the thing that is sad is you don't see how knowledge can be shared and friends made on this site.

[coach]

Ambush, the only coug I've taken I took in the late deer archery season. We did have dogs but never let them off the leash. Found the tracks in fresh snow and simply followed them all day. Took the 8'2" Tom with a recurve.

That's one hell of an accomplishment, JT! Congratulations.

[The Dude]

I can't recall asking for much hunting advice ever on this site. Don't see a need to do that in the future either. For me, piecing the puzzle together is what makes hunting fun. It seems too many hunters in this modern age want the answers handed to them on a silver plater without ever learning a thing for themselves. I personally view that as sad.

You're the kind of fossil that woud hire a new kid as a blaster, hand him a fuse and a keg of back powder, and say "Ya gotta learn by doing! That's how we all did it in MY day!!"
You're in the small minority here Steve, give it up.
Your negativity is annoying as hell.
If everyone had your piss-poor attitude, we'd have net ZERO new hunter recruitment, so please give it a rest, stop playing "Innocent guy", and go back to posting really nice photos.

[LBM]

Ambush, the only coug I've taken I took in the late deer archery season. We did have dogs but never let them off the leash. Found the tracks in fresh snow and simply followed them all day. Took the 8'2" Tom with a recurve.

Each year we hunt the late season with cougar tags in the pocket. This year after a few days of harvesting, we had cats howling in the daylight. One of our trail cams got a night shot of 3 cats in the same image.

Each year we lose a couple of deer to cats. They are never far away. Good to have a tag in the pocket.

You shot the cat on the ground or in a tree and if so how did you get it to tree.

[LBM]

Did you do all the work your self? Or did you "apprentice" with someone?

Pretty sure Dana shot his cat with his brother and his brothers dogs, not on his own.

[J_T]

You shot the cat on the ground or in a tree and if so how did you get it to tree. Shot it in a tree. We had actually given up. The chase was exhausting. (we were in good shape) and we'd pushed the cat all day. We finally just turned to each other and said enough. We stopped had a drink before turning around and there he was, sitting in a tree above us. Pretty crazy.

[Ambush]

Shot it in a tree. We had actually given up. The chase was exhausting. (we were in good shape) and we'd pushed the cat all day. We finally just turned to each other and said enough. We stopped had a drink before turning around and there he was, sitting in a tree above us. Pretty crazy.

Sounds like you earned an awesome trophy! Funny how hunting can beat your body and spirit down to a pile off exhausted mush. And then in seconds whosh you up to a peak of excitement and gratitude!!

Congratulations on a true hunting highlight.

[LBM]

Shot it in a tree. We had actually given up. The chase was exhausting. (we were in good shape) and we'd pushed the cat all day. We finally just turned to each other and said enough. We stopped had a drink before turning around and there he was, sitting in a tree above us. Pretty crazy.
The dogs you had were they barking at all, well following.

[Ambush]

The dogs you had were they barking at all, well following.

LBM, you obviously have an axe to grind on the cougar issue. Are you a paid cougar guide?

[BiG Boar]

I can't recall asking for much hunting advice ever on this site. Don't see a need to do that in the future either. For me, piecing the puzzle together is what makes hunting fun. It seems too many hunters in this modern age want the answers handed to them on a silver plater without ever learning a thing for themselves. I personally view that as sad.

Thats pretty funny. I bet your dad never took you hunting, or anyone for that matter, and you learned it all on your own.
When you take your kids hunting, you just point towards the bushes and say, "get deer!" No help for them, gonna have to do it on their own!
You've never read a book, as that would be learning from someone else's experiences and not your own.
It seems too many hunters in those days of old were handed answers down from generations on a silver plater without having to ever ask the questions in the first place. There is no need to re-invent the wheel. Learn from others mistakes.

He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes; he who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. -Chinese Proverb

[LBM]

LBM, you obviously have an axe to grind on the cougar issue. Are you a paid cougar guide?

Wow how the hell do you get that outa what I said, it was trying to find out how he got the cat to help you out. Your the one that wants to get one with out dogs.
He said they had dogs with them so wanted to know if they were barking for that is why the cat may have been in the tree.
No I am not a paid cougar guide, just get tired about all the BS about cats and lack of knowledge of cats thats spread on here.
You want guides get ahold of houndsmen or hounddogger or blacktailstalker.
Good luck in your quest

[J_T]

The dogs you had were they barking at all, well following. They were two young airedales, this was their first cat. They were being trained for cat hunting, but hadn't been let off the leash yet. It was probably 10 years ago now so I don't really remember if they were barking, I'm sure at some points they were. We crossed lots of other cat tracks over the course of the hunt.

[325]

I can't recall asking for much hunting advice ever on this site. Don't see a need to do that in the future either. For me, piecing the puzzle together is what makes hunting fun. It seems too many hunters in this modern age want the answers handed to them on a silver plater without ever learning a thing for themselves. I personally view that as sad.

Kinda sad. When I started sheep hunting, I spent countless hours pouring over sheep photos, reading threads on this site, and picking the brain of my friend who is an accomplished sheep guide. In the end, the advice I received and what I learned on aging sheep, locating sheep, and patterning sheep resulted in success. Over-all, the pearls of wisdom I learned from others gave me a great foundation on which to launch my sheep hunting career.

This fall, I am taking my hunting partner, who has never hunted sheep, up north for a hunt to try and get him a ram. I'm going to pass the torch and teach him everything I know (shouldn't take long :)). I can't wait to share in his success.

[The Hermit]

Kinda sad. When I started sheep hunting, I spent countless hours pouring over sheep photos, reading threads on this site, and picking the brain of my friend who is an accomplished sheep guide. In the end, the advice I received and what I learned on aging sheep, locating sheep, and patterning sheep resulted in success. Over-all, the pearls of wisdom I learned from others gave me a great foundation on which to launch my sheep hunting career.

This fall, I am taking my hunting partner, who has never hunted sheep, up north for a hunt to try and get him a ram. I'm going to pass the torch and teach him everything I know (shouldn't take long :)). I can't wait to share in his success.

Cool. Put me down for 2014 then! :-) Never too old to learn, happy to share, and just love to get out. Dana is taking me mulie hunting this year! ;-) Okay that was getting ahead of myself... Steve - PLEASE!!!

[Mr. Dean]

I think it's hard to get reliable info when the "Cat Guys" can't agree on what a cat track even is (as seen in a previous thread). :lol:

[BCrams]

Then I'll take the Bike Riders advice and look for guys with dogs around PG. Never know, I may find a hot track.

Find a track and let me know. I have a contact who knows a fellow with dogs that has treed cats. I don't go looking for cat tracks on purpose but do keep eyes open when out and about. While they're around, I feel there's not enough of them in this area to purposely go looking for them.

[dana]

You're the kind of fossil that woud hire a new kid as a blaster, hand him a fuse and a keg of back powder, and say "Ya gotta learn by doing! That's how we all did it in MY day!!"
You're in the small minority here Steve, give it up.
Your negativity is annoying as hell.
If everyone had your piss-poor attitude, we'd have net ZERO new hunter recruitment, so please give it a rest, stop playing "Innocent guy", and go back to posting really nice photos.

Are you kidding me??? I give more info on this site than most. Actually why don't you talk to Kyle who posted about the same stuff last month and ask him if I was mean and had a piss-poor attitude in my PM's resonding to his questions. If you go back to the orginal post you will see the Original Poster actually was the one with the piss-poor attitude slamming every cougar hunter on this site. Throughout the tread he has demanded info be handed out. Reread his posts and see who has the piss-poor attitude dude. If I was wanting info about the same thing, I might show some inniative and find a cat track or two and take a picture with something beside them to judge size with and then ask for everyone's oppinion. He might have got a much better response that way. But nope, he demanded we show him our pics and teach him the difference. And even though some gave good info, all cougar hunters are still selfish pricks right????

As for cougar hunting and hunter recruitment, give that one a rest. No different than wannabe trophy muley hunters that demand I give up all my knowledge so they can shoot a big buck. Cougars and trophy mule deer do not help in hunter recruitment.

[The Dude]

Blah blah blaahhhhhhh...... Yup. Attitude.
But what do i know, I'm a 'wannabe'
LMAO@U


I've heard you're actually a helluva nice guy in person. Shame that's lost in translation here.
Damn shame.

[dana]

Yup, again I'm a dick because I don't think that people who 'DEMAND INFO' need to be catered too. It doesn't matter how much countless info I do hand out. Because I didn't post up a bunch of pictures of tracks spoon feeding the orginal poster, I'm again the asshole. Really dude??? What is a damn shame is that many on this site bite the hand that feeds them time and time again. Maners are lost and info is demanded or else those that didn't give it are pricks.

[coach]

If I'm sitting in a treestand or blind or even just walking and a cougar wanders into range, how can I tell if it's "shootable"? Other than checking for kittens, how can a hunter judge if it's an average tom or mature female or even a good representative cat?


Re: Tracks - How do you tell a tom from a female? Track size, pad shape, gait or a combination?

Can you distinguish between the sex's, on a visual, by body shape, head size or other characteristics? Other than having the critter in a tree and looking under the tail, what indicators are there?

Not having any experience, and probably no opportunity to get any, I'm going to take any legal cat that gives me the chance. I mean, how many times am I going to be within bow range of a cougar? But I'd rather it be a decent sized male.

So, can some of the experienced chasers provide some real education that the average joe can use to increase his chances of taking a "suitable" cat?
Words are good, pictures with captions rule.

Too bad this thread has gone sideways.. These questions seemed pretty reasonable to me. :-D

Dana - I completely understand the reasoning that guys shouldn't expect to have information "handed" to them over the internet. I appreciate those that get out there, do some learning on their own, take some pictures and discuss their discoveries with more experienced and knowledgeable people. I very much appreciate the knowledge, experience and photographs that you've shared with all of us on HBC over the years. Sure - you puff your chest out sometimes and rub people the wrong way, but WTF - it goes with the territory and is well worth the price of admission. I'd hate to see an end to you sharing.

That said, Ambush is also extremely helpful to other hunters. Not many guys consistently kill grizzlies with their bows like he does. After reading a thread where I mentioned a problem with my pack - he pm'd me with information and pictures to solve the issues. Good guy - IMO! I also appreciated the fact this thread was started separate from an existing one - stopping that one from getting derailed.

I don't see any of the questions asked at the beginning of this thread as being out of line. Hopefully we can get things back on track. It's amazing what the word "cougar" does to a room full of hunters..:mrgreen:

[dana]

You say you are not asking to be taken out and then you end with the Catch22 statement. You won't be taken out not because you don't have experience. You won't be taken out because you don't have hounds and the risk of being accussed of illegal guiding is too high for most houndsmen. Buy a hound and ask for advice and someone to tag along with to get you and your dog experience and you will have a totally different response.

It has been mentioned many a time the odds of killing a lion without hounds are pretty much slim to none. So why would a cougar hunter explain tracks and sex id to people who will never get to use it. IDing a cat is pretty easy when it is up a tree. Totally different when it is on the ground. To someone that has never seen cats before, even a sub-adult will appear large to them. But when you've actually seen small, medium, large and extra large, it is really easy to tell the difference. Being under numerous trees gets ya this experience. If you are only going to see 1 cat in 15 years of trying to 'call' them in, how are you going to gain any experience on judging small versus large? It is pretty easy judging tracks if you take the time to actually learn. No different than judging deer tracks. Big toms typically have big feet. The same goes with big bucks. If you have never looked at much more than a couple sets of lion tracks, how does one explain on the internet what is big or small? Go out and actually find tracks. Learn them. What is fresh? What is old? What is a female versus a big tom? Follow them. See if other smaller tracks join them. This would mean a female with kits. Compare the female size to other sizes you encounter throughout the year. Learn by doing, not by someone on the internet telling you. There are enough threads on this site without having to even use Google that will give more detail, but how hard is it to use Google too?

So how am I not helping the guy out? I gave pretty solid advice and yet it wasn't good enough and I am called out by the likes of the Dud as being a prick??? Seriously, how much info does a guy need to give people before they see it as indeed info?

The OP wants to kill a big mature tom although he has no dogs. He pretty much slammed all houndsmen in his first post and then goes on to demand more info be given. He states that he will shoot the first legal cat that he sees, so why does he need all this 'knowledge'.

[Hunting/addict]

I have brought cougars in with rattling so it is possible with out dogs, just alot less reliable.

[Ambush]

No I am not a paid cougar guide, just get tired about all the BS about cats and lack of knowledge of cats thats spread on here.
You want guides get ahold of houndsmen or hounddogger or blacktailstalker.
Good luck in your quest

No offence intended LBM. Nearly all your posts involve cougars, so they are a very prevalent concern to you. I wasn't accusing you of being a guide, I was asking. I don't have a problem with guides anymore than with any other person who makes money from the natural resources we have in BC.
I shouldn't have said "ax to grind" but rather "deep concern". My apologies.

Thanks for the numbers on the other thread.

[LBM]

They were two young airedales, this was their first cat. They were being trained for cat hunting, but hadn't been let off the leash yet. It was probably 10 years ago now so I don't really remember if they were barking, I'm sure at some points they were. We crossed lots of other cat tracks over the course of the hunt.

Havent seen a lot of airdales in the EK used on cats, know a guy in montana that does and really likes them runs them together with his hounds.
Ran into some guys years ago a few times in the kootenay that had them.

[J_T]

Havent seen a lot of airdales in the EK used on cats, know a guy in montana that does and really likes them runs them together with his hounds.
Ran into some guys years ago a few times in the kootenay that had them. I didn't say it was the EK.

[The Dude]

So how am I not helping the guy out? I gave pretty solid advice and yet it wasn't good enough and I am called out by the likes of the Dud as being a prick??? Seriously, how much info does a guy need to give people before they see it as indeed info?

The OP wants to kill a big mature tom although he has no dogs. He pretty much slammed all houndsmen in his first post and then goes on to demand more info be given. He states that he will shoot the first legal cat that he sees, so why does he need all this 'knowledge'.

Stop drinking your own Kool-Aid Dana.
Insult duly noted, although I didn't insult you, or call you "a prick", you fabricated that in a desperate attempt to prove your weak point.
The OP asked IF it was possible to hunt cougars without hounds, and you, despite admittedly NOT being a Cougar guy, stomped all over him with your wealth of inexperience.
I draw attention to it, and you insulted me by calling me names.
Classy.

I'm glad that your real persona is reportedly more genial than your internet tough guy one.
Peace, The "Dud".

[hunter1947]

If you have a tag its open season you see a cougar all scared up from past fighting,,,looks as big as a d9cat shoot..

[Ambush]

A couple of clarifications:

To clarify something from "coaches" post; I've only killed three grizzlies and the last one was with a bow. Just lot's of BB's.

dana just has an "internet grudge" against me for failing [when I first joined HBC] to recognize his mule deer godship. It's rather flattering that I'm so important in his life, that he'll go out of his way to heckle me.

Way more good people on here than bad. But one fart can stink up a whole room. :mrgreen: :-D

[dana]

Stop drinking your own Kool-Aid Dana.
Insult duly noted, although I didn't insult you, or call you "a prick", you fabricated that in a desperate attempt to prove your weak point.
The OP asked IF it was possible to hunt cougars without hounds, and you, despite admittedly NOT being a Cougar guy, stomped all over him with your wealth of inexperience.
I draw attention to it, and you insulted me by calling me names.
Classy.


I'm glad that your real persona is reportedly more genial than your internet tough guy one.
Peace, The "Dud".

The dud,
I didn't say I wasn't a cougar guy, I said I wasn't much of a cougar guy. I have been under a few trees. My biggest tom is 8'9" on the wall. I personally know guys that eat and breath lions. I'm not one of those guys. I eat and breath muleys and hunt lions in the offseason to pass the time until muley shed season is in full swing. Having a hound that loves to chase sheds is an added bonus. I cut a fresh lion track when looking for tine, and the chase is on. ;) So before you go accusing me of having a lack of experience, maybe you should stop and think first.

[Nait Hadya]

i find it difficult to believe you fellows are passing on older tracks and only run a freshie.

[Ambush]

The snow is fairly firm now and we had about an inch of snow this morning, so I went out to find some cat tracks. I took me about two kilometers to find some fairly fresh ones. I followed them for about another km and jumped up a lynx. He was sitting on a snow hump watching me come, well before I saw him. Pretty tough to be quiet on snow shoes right now.
After he took off, he didn't let me catch up again.
A few weeks ago I had seen cat tracks crossing a road with a group of deer's tracks and I was hoping they were cougar tracks, but I know better now. Just a coincidence.

About 3 1/2" across
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/Lynx_Tracks_003.JPG

Fairly fresh track
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/Lynx_Tracks_002.JPG

walking along
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/Lynx_Tracks_010.JPG


Running full tilt
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/Lynx_Tracks_012.JPG


Walking stride is about 14"
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/Lynx_Tracks_006.JPG

[BlacktailStalker]

Cool Ambush ! See how those tracks kind of have a 'skuff' behind them ? That is the fur around the lynx's foot doing that. A cougar track won't have that, they make perfect cookie cutter holes in the snow (when walking)

[Ambush]

Cool Ambush ! See how those tracks kind of have a 'skuff' behind them ? That is the fur around the lynx's foot doing that. A cougar track won't have that, they make perfect cookie cutter holes in the snow (when walking)

Thanks BTS . Another useful tip for the amateur.

[Gateholio]

BTS, that's a great tip.

[horshur]

hey......cookie cutter print eh?? there more exceptions then rules...this is a tom as big as they get in BC

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y264/akdana/IMG_0513.jpg

[BlacktailStalker]

Exception to the rule on that pig. obviously in deep snow as well, exception to the rule. Unlikely a newb looking for a bit of insight is worried about the exceptions yet ? Was just trying to help

[LBM]

hey......cookie cutter print eh?? there more exceptions then rules...this is a tom as big as they get in BC

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y264/akdana/IMG_0513.jpg

Did you catch up to the cat, any pictures.

[horshur]

Did you catch up to the cat, any pictures.

no I don't think I ever caught him...getting to be a long time ago now...never seen that track there again either.