East Kootenay cougar season closed early

[reach]

Announced Jan 30 but didn't make it into the Hunting News feed until today (Feb 5).


"The Ministry of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations has closed the cougar hunting season in the East Kootenay effective, January 31, 2013. The closure covers the following Wildlife Management Units only: 4-01 to 4-04, 4-21 to 4-26, 4-34 to 4-37, and 4-40."


The season was originally scheduled to close Feb 28, with a footnote that it would close early if a certain harvest number was reached.


http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/hunting/docs/2013FOR0007-000148.pdf

[coach]

Is this good news or bad? Social or scientific decision? Whitetail bag limits were reduced in the Kootenays and now cougar season closes early. I keep reading about the lack of mule deer in the area and the correlation to whitetail and cougar populations. Anyone have any comments or information to share?

[bugler]

There is a female quota for the area, if it is reached season reverts to pursuit only. Guess it was reached. Personally I think the quota is too low.

And although I fully intended to help reduce the cougar population I'm sorry to say that the season was closed before I could get out there on the weekend.:-D Should have gotten on it sooner.

WT bag was not reduced. There was discussion that deer limit would increase to 3 (1 MD, 2 WT) and it went into the regs but it turns out it wasn't supposed to. Limit is still 2 like it has been for awhile (1 and 1 or 2 WT).

[BlacktailStalker]

Yup typical kootenay thing all the boys out hammering every cat they can in fear someone else will "get it" if they don't *****.
Whats the point in feeding dogs all year to run cats for two months and have to shut 'er down?! Most hound guys are their own worst enemy, its too bad. Whats a guy gonna do with an 80lb female every year lol ?

[bugler]

I think it's more like that's all there is out there are young toms and females. Many figure they might as well shoot a female to save a few deer and let the tom grow up a bit.

[houndogger]

I think it's more like that's all there is out there are young toms and females. Many figure they might as well shoot a female to save a few deer and let the tom grow up a bit.
I've heard a lot of reasons on shooting females but that one takes the cake! lol

[chilcotin hillbilly]

x2 houndogger

[dana]

Wasn't buglar saying just a week ago on another thread that he was going to go out and whack a female in an effort to 'save deer'? There definately is some messed up thinking within their local hunters in the EK? Thankfully there is a quota in the EK.

[TexasWalker]

Yup typical kootenay thing all the boys out hammering every cat they can in fear someone else will "get it" if they don't *****.
Whats the point in feeding dogs all year to run cats for two months and have to shut 'er down?! Most hound guys are their own worst enemy, its too bad. Whats a guy gonna do with an 80lb female every year lol ?

Good to see someone call it like it is.
People post female cats and nanny goats and when anybody dares to say anything everybody jumps down your throat because it's 'legal' after all.

[dana]

"But if we exterminate a couple of females I probably won't post up. Don't need the drama from the kitty lovers!" - bugler

[dana]

"Around here we are already putting the pressure on the whitetail and both species are way down. I don't believe resource competition or genetic introgression are a problem right now, no way there are enough beasts to eat all of the available food. I do believe the female component is getting ready to collapse. Maybe I can help save a couple of them from starvation." -bugler

[dana]

"Heading out with some guys for cats this weekend. Pretty much anything that winds up in the tree is going down. Just trying to help out a little!" -bugler

[reach]

Man I gotta stop posting these Kootenay reg changes. So much drama. LOL

This was intended as just an FYI for anyone planning a hunt.

[The Dude]

Something in the water in the East Koots makes super-dramatic threads out of anything related to Elk, cats or Mulw Deer.

Maybe it's "Drama-mine"?

[BlacktailStalker]

I think it's more like that's all there is out there are young toms and females. Many figure they might as well shoot a female to save a few deer and let the tom grow up a bit.

Wrong. Most always, cats have two kittens. Most always, there is a female and a male.
For the record I'm not talking about the odd guy who is just tickled by taking a female cat, or someone packing a tag in the hopes they see one and after ten years finally does, cool good for them. We're talking the guys with their own dogs, dumping females year after year and taking buddies out to do the same.
With your way of thinking bugler, ok so say that really was all there is (but its not) I'm curious what they'd do with it after the second, third and tenth one ? I don't know too many guys who would rather eat cat over deer, elk or moose and most guys have some of that in the freezer when winter rolls around. Its what, $300 to tan a cat?
Highly unlikely someone is going to tan ten of them or even two, they aren't going to mount 60-80lbs cats every year or ever either. Most aren't drooling over the meat so whats that leave, some dead pics of a cat smaller than the dogs that treed it and a skull to boil ? lol thats all I mean and really, I am actually curious.
Every mature cat keeps a few younger cats out of that area. Even her own. You kill one big tom or female and two or three that dont have a territory are probably going to move in and set up shop and that one big area is going to be sectioned into smaller ones, which means more game killed in each of those small areas opposed to one cat spreading out his/her killing. Kill a female that would normally kick her offspring out, if she has two subs running around with her, they aren't going anywhere, they'll set up right there and some will even hunt together longer than normal. I've seen it, the story is always in the snow.
Also, if there really was NO big toms around, the EK would be over run with cats... sounds to me a quota on the female harvest the only conservation going on is specifically to save cats from hunters.
I could care less though, not my back yard and if it was, have no say in the matter. I just think it's amusing really, what gets said.

[digger dogger]

Yup typical kootenay thing all the boys out hammering every cat they can in fear someone else will "get it" if they don't *****.
Whats the point in feeding dogs all year to run cats for two months and have to shut 'er down?! Most hound guys are their own worst enemy, its too bad. Whats a guy gonna do with an 80lb female every year lol ?

I know one of those females, was jumped up off of a ram, it had just killed.. To me, thats a good cat to kill.
Your right about, whats a guy gonna do with a 80lbs cat cape, sell it for 100 bux? 1/2 a tank of diesel???lol

[BlacktailStalker]

Yeah I know a lot of the sheep killers get whacked and that is what it is. Like I said, I am just curious about the guys who do it year after year and take a few a year, maybe cuz they can ? And so be it. Like I said before I just dont understand why a guy would want to deal with hounds for 12 months of the year to run cats for 1.5-2 months its sounds crazy to me.

[happyhunter]

I know there's guys out there that run cats all season and wont shoot one unless its real big or could make book. Makes me wonder how much weight these cats lose over a winter constantly being pushed off their kills and ran every few days. And they are run at LEAST every few days in the east koots. You should see all the hound guys driving around town. Anyway some guys want to hold out for a big one but you may be your own worst enemies when it comes to trying to "grow" at big tom. But whatever you do what you want.

I for one am glad that some hunters are willing to shoot some of these females or "small" toms.

[Husky7mm]

Holy shit out of region hunters with a world of knowledge!!!!!!!!!! What bugler shared is true! Thats is what happened and we are over run with cats. Due to the lack of deer this fall, lots of people hammered cats, all kinds of then and most within 15-30 mins of crazybrook. Most didnt have to burn a 1/2 tank to get a few runs in either. Many runs resulted in the dogs being mixed up with all the tracks, put out on one cat catch another..... Funny thing is there are more folks with hounds here than any where in the world, and still lots of cats! They should not have shut it down, free cougar management! That being said the harvest of any decent male just seems to ensure all cougars make it to be adults, therefore they shouldnt have shut it down.

[Husky7mm]

Wrong. Most always, cats have two kittens. Most always, there is a female and a male.
For the record I'm not talking about the odd guy who is just tickled by taking a female cat, or someone packing a tag in the hopes they see one and after ten years finally does, cool good for them. We're talking the guys with their own dogs, dumping females year after year and taking buddies out to do the same.
With your way of thinking bugler, ok so say that really was all there is (but its not) I'm curious what they'd do with it after the second, third and tenth one ? I don't know too many guys who would rather eat cat over deer, elk or moose and most guys have some of that in the freezer when winter rolls around. Its what, $300 to tan a cat?
Highly unlikely someone is going to tan ten of them or even two, they aren't going to mount 60-80lbs cats every year or ever either. Most aren't drooling over the meat so whats that leave, some dead pics of a cat smaller than the dogs that treed it and a skull to boil ? lol thats all I mean and really, I am actually curious.
Every mature cat keeps a few younger cats out of that area. Even her own. You kill one big tom or female and two or three that dont have a territory are probably going to move in and set up shop and that one big area is going to be sectioned into smaller ones, which means more game killed in each of those small areas opposed to one cat spreading out his/her killing. Kill a female that would normally kick her offspring out, if she has two subs running around with her, they aren't going anywhere, they'll set up right there and some will even hunt together longer than normal. I've seen it, the story is always in the snow.
Also, if there really was NO big toms around, the EK would be over run with cats... sounds to me a quota on the female harvest the only conservation going on is specifically to save cats from hunters.
I could care less though, not my back yard and if it was, have no say in the matter. I just think it's amusing really, what gets said.

What do you think the other cats with no "territory" are eating, grass?

[Husky7mm]

Go to tim hortons or mcdonalds early there will be 3-4 guys with dog boxes in front of you here, every day. people dont sell hound here they give them away! There will be a study on this one day!

[BlacktailStalker]

Yeah you nailed it I think they eat grass why cant they all just cuddle and get along.

Pretty common knowledge that younger cats more or less hang out in a smaller area or travel until they find somewhere to set up. They don't get cream of the crop pickings on where they get to live. Ok I hear you there are a pile of guys hunting them, still wondering what they do with little rat dink cats ? Still could be a pile of them to run and justify feeding dogs all year. Like I said, I am curious about the mentality of it all.

[Husky7mm]

I dont think its the same folks shooting little cats but more so "guests" seems like no right answer anyway..... What they do with them, who knows, tan it, eat it, put it in the frezzer for 10 years? WGAS! It becoming evident that lots of people hunting cat, and shooting mostly just decent males means more , and extra deer die every day....

[Husky7mm]

Cant justify the "cost" of hunting, just goota love it and do it!

[BlacktailStalker]

I dont think its the same folks shooting little cats but more so "guests" seems like no right answer anyway..... What they do with them, who knows, tan it, eat it, put it in the frezzer for 10 years? WGAS It becomeing evident that lots of people hunting cat and shooting mostly just decent males means more , and extra deer day every day....

If guys were firm believers in thinking they are saving deer they should be leaving the females alone, keeping it open and shooting twice as many toms so just another indication they're playing with a half deck. For sure it's guests for the most part I agree.
Meanwhile the wolves are flourishing along the rivers below them lmf-ao. Can't fix stupid I guess like I said to each their own.

There is a couple losers here that apparently collect claws and they cant kill all the cats in the same spot they deer hunt year after year, what does that tell a guy ? They think its funny they are deer hunters/hound guys not houndsmen/deer hunters hence hence the hate. Some years there is twice as many cats as the year before and I'm talking kittens, females or toms they kill them all, real ****in' winners. Forget the cats if you want to help get the wolves !

[BiG Boar]

Does anyone know the numbers of females killed there compared to other areas? Maybe people are just as "bad" in other areas, they just don't have a quota? Would be interested in the real numbers.

[BlacktailStalker]

Good question BB be cool to see.

[Husky7mm]

Well you do have a bias cause cougar hunting is one of your passions. But every cat has got to eat, male and female.... We all know those wolfs are also robbing those cats also, to make matters worse. Its really a cluster fack around here right now.....

[hunter1947]

Yup typical kootenay thing all the boys out hammering every cat they can in fear someone else will "get it" if they don't *****.
Whats the point in feeding dogs all year to run cats for two months and have to shut 'er down?! Most hound guys are their own worst enemy, its too bad. Whats a guy gonna do with an 80lb female every year lol ?

Good wording Andy thats what I think as well in the three years living in Cranbrook I have never seen so many trucks with hound boxes in the back of there trucks with hounds in the dog box..
I head out lots of times early to get a coffee and donut at Tim Horton's or shop at supper store there is a gas bar in the parking area where supper store is there open at 6am I talk to a cat hunter if I see them getting gas and if they have there hounds in the back of the truck I ask are you headed out for cats he says yes we are..

I also go to the 7eleven to get gas quit often seams almost every time I go to one of these places there I see a different trucks with hounds in the back I ask them headed out for cougars they say yes ,,I wish them good luck..

[Rodd]

The season has been closed early before in the EK, for over harvest of females... Its like nanny goats.. Only they don't close the season when too many are harvested, although may close future hunting if too many are taken. Many hunters I know, who don't have hounds, are willing to take the first legal animal they see, as they may not see anymore, or not have any futher opportunity to hunt with hounds. Can't speak for the Cranny area, but the northern trench, is still loaded with cats, and some absoloute pigs are still out there for sure. The CO probly kills as many females as anyone. One was shot 150yds from my house, cuz it was hanging out near some sheds on a farm(small female). Most the houndsman I know would never let you take a female on a hunt with them. Its the guys that don't have a cat, that are willing to shoot females, so they can say "I have killed a Cougar". I don't know of anyone who would shoot a female year after year that has hounds... As in other threads, its hard to bash someone for shooting a legal animal, its up to each individual to decide trophy status, and I'm sure not too many houndsman are proud to shoot a female every year in the EK. IMO FYI(cranny is only part of the EK)

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Holy shit out of region hunters with a world of knowledge!!!!!!!!!! What bugler shared is true! Thats is what happened and we are over run with cats. Due to the lack of deer this fall, lots of people hammered cats, all kinds of then and most within 15-30 mins of crazybrook. Most didnt have to burn a 1/2 tank to get a few runs in either. Many runs resulted in the dogs being mixed up with all the tracks, put out on one cat catch another..... Funny thing is there are more folks with hounds here than any where in the world, and still lots of cats! They should not have shut it down, free cougar management! That being said the harvest of any decent male just seems to ensure all cougars make it to be adults, therefore they shouldnt have shut it down.


If you guys really want to drop the cat #'s over there, maybe you guys should get organized and shoot all the females in the last 10 days? What's the CI time? 10 days?
That would keep the season open until the end and give everyone maximum opportunity.

We've got too many cats over here too...but with not many guys running them and only 1 tag, no one wants to dump females or small toms.

I like cat meat.

There are three things that guarentee drama on HBC.....mulw deer, sheep and cats.

SSS

[Weatherby Fan]

If you guys really want to drop the cat #'s over there, maybe you guys should get organized and shoot all the females in the last 10 days? What's the CI time? 10 days?
That would keep the season open until the end and give everyone maximum opportunity.

We've got too many cats over here too...but with not many guys running them and only 1 tag, no one wants to dump females or small toms.

I like cat meat.

There are three things that guarentee drama on HBC.....mulw deer, sheep and cats.

SSS

I notice that a considerable amount of drama on HBC seems to come from the Cranbrook area regardless of which animal is mentioned :mrgreen:

[Husky7mm]

I understand the desire of a houndsman is to ensure there are always some cats left for the future. Passing on females and small males in hopes of getting a nice tom thats worth the effort. The problem lies in feeding them all to get to that stage. I am sure that with massive amount of guys with dogs here that nothing is "normal" in the lives of the southern EK cougar. Its also clear that anyone with a hound has a bias opinion about high harvest and quotas. No offence to anyone, just saying...

[Husky7mm]

I notice that a considerable amount of drama on HBC seems to come from the Cranbrook area regardless of which animal is mentioned :mrgreen:

Well the whole area hunts and many travel here to hunt so naturally lots of feedback and opinions.... Many passionate hunters here, some think it is their mandate to hunt, hunt, hunt, hunt. Most are not members of this site. To busy hunting.....

[coach]

Preface: I'm one of those damn out of towners..:-? I've seen cougars on a few occasions here in the Okanagan. I've never hunted them - although one day I'd like to. I have no agenda - simply interested in learning so that I can make more informed decisions.


- Does anyone know the number of females harvested that resulted in having the season closed down? Are we talking half a dozen or several dozen?

- What is the consensus on the science involved in managing cougar numbers while Mule Deer are (allegedly) in such trouble in the EK?

- Did this decision take the mule deer situation into account or is it strictly about cougars?

- The research re: whitetails, cougars and mule deer that I read on another thread suggested that the best way to help the mule deer was to start with reducing the whitetail population. Has that happened to the point where reducing cougar numbers makes sense as a "next step"? (The research article never mentioned what should be done once WT numbers were under control)

- Once again: was the decision to close the season science based or social? It's hard to decipher some of the decisions as there seem to be so many agendas..

[Wild one]

Preface: I'm one of those damn out of towners..:-? I've seen cougars on a few occasions here in the Okanagan. I've never hunted them - although one day I'd like to. I have no agenda - simply interested in learning so that I can make more informed decisions.


- Does anyone know the number of females harvested that resulted in having the season closed down? Are we talking half a dozen or several dozen?

- What is the consensus on the science involved in managing cougar numbers while Mule Deer are (allegedly) in such trouble in the EK?

- Did this decision take the mule deer situation into account or is it strictly about cougars?

- The research re: whitetails, cougars and mule deer that I read on another thread suggested that the best way to help the mule deer was to start with reducing the whitetail population. Has that happened to the point where reducing cougar numbers makes sense as a "next step"? (The research article never mentioned what should be done once WT numbers were under control)

- Once again: was the decision to close the season science based or social? It's hard to decipher some of the decisions as there seem to be so many agendas..


I can't see the lowering of WT numbers to help prevent predators killing mule deer being a good idea

Look at the results of increasing moose harvest to try and prevent predators from killing caribou. In my opinion I cannot see lowering WT numbers getting a different result

[Rodd]

Preface: I'm one of those damn out of towners..:-? I've seen cougars on a few occasions here in the Okanagan. I've never hunted them - although one day I'd like to. I have no agenda - simply interested in learning so that I can make more informed decisions.


- Does anyone know the number of females harvested that resulted in having the season closed down? Are we talking half a dozen or several dozen?

- What is the consensus on the science involved in managing cougar numbers while Mule Deer are (allegedly) in such trouble in the EK?

- Did this decision take the mule deer situation into account or is it strictly about cougars?

- The research re: whitetails, cougars and mule deer that I read on another thread suggested that the best way to help the mule deer was to start with reducing the whitetail population. Has that happened to the point where reducing cougar numbers makes sense as a "next step"? (The research article never mentioned what should be done once WT numbers were under control)

- Once again: was the decision to close the season science based or social? It's hard to decipher some of the decisions as there seem to be so many agendas..

Note the cougar season will close 72 hours after the regional manager has published that since April 1, of the licence year, the total number of female cougars killed in MUs 4-1 to 4-4,4-21 to 4-26, 4-34 to 4-37, and 4-40 has reached20 or in MUs 4-9, 4-14 to 4-19, 4-27 to 4-33, 4-38, and 4-39 the total number of females killed has reached 10 or in MUs 4-5 to 4-8,and 4-20 has reached 10.

Straight from the reg's...

[coach]

Thanks, Rodd. That answers the first question..

[coach]

I can't see the lowering of WT numbers to help prevent predators killing mule deer being a good idea

Look at the results of increasing moose harvest to try and prevent predators from killing caribou. In my opinion I cannot see lowering WT numbers getting a different result

Here's a link to the research paper I was referencing: http://www.wildlifemanagementinstitute.org/PDF/4-Effects%20of%20WhiteTailed....pdf

And for those uninterested in reading the paper, here's the conclusion:


Conclusions

Our results suggest that increased numbers of white-tailed deer results
in an increased number of cougars. The increased number of cougars results in
increased cougar predation on mule deer and possibly increased cougar
complaints. The increased cougar complaints result in increased cougar hunting.

Increased cougar hunting results in increased subadult male immigrants.
Increased immigrants results in increased cougar complaints. Repeat. . .until
such time as the female component of the cougar population collapses and
cougars are functionally extirpated. At that time, the white-tailed deer population
really explodes. Mule deer are then susceptible to further decline due to resource
competition or genetic introgression.

We recommend experimental reductions of invading white-tailed deer to
forestall such a scenario.

[rocksteady]

I did not hunt cats this year, for several reasons, but I did talk to my buddy about the season prior and it is appearing to turn into a childish bickerfest between the guides and locals..

Guides are allegedly jumping tracks that locals have marked (seen that) and are harvesting a large number of females (clients pay the same if its a tom or a tit.) Once the quota is reached, the season is shut down and the locals can't harvest and the guides surely don't sell many pursuit only hunts...So locals feel guides are impacting "their" season, but still gaining financially...

So, in return, the locals have decided to kill as many cats period as they can, under the premise of protecting the other wildlife, but really what they are trying to do is impact the guides. The guide who has 3 or 4 clients booked for cat hunting during the prime season, suddenly gets notified that the season is closed and now he has to call his clients and cancel (there goes $5 to 10K out of the guides pocket for each hunt)...Some locals have said they will try to kill as many females as possible for the next few years (to close the season) in an attempt to make the guides go bankrupt, or just make it so hard on them (guides) to book cat hunts that are successful, that they will impact the guides income to the point that they no longer will offer cat hunts....

[coach]

I did not hunt cats this year, for several reasons, but I did talk to my buddy about the season prior and it is appearing to turn into a childish bickerfest between the guides and locals..

Guides are allegedly jumping tracks that locals have marked (seen that) and are harvesting a large number of females (clients pay the same if its a tom or a tit.) Once the quota is reached, the season is shut down and the locals can't harvest and the guides surely don't sell many pursuit only hunts...So locals feel guides are impacting "their" season, but still gaining financially...

So, in return, the locals have decided to kill as many cats period as they can, under the premise of protecting the other wildlife, but really what they are trying to do is impact the guides. The guide who has 3 or 4 clients booked for cat hunting during the prime season, suddenly gets notified that the season is closed and now he has to call his clients and cancel (there goes $5 to 10K out of the guides pocket for each hunt)...Some locals have said they will try to kill as many females as possible for the next few years (to close the season) in an attempt to make the guides go bankrupt, or just make it so hard on them (guides) to book cat hunts that are successful, that they will impact the guides income to the point that they no longer will offer cat hunts....

Thanks, RS. WOW! is all I can say.. :evil:

[Elkaholic]

I for one am glad they closed it. They did not close it at all last year and they took a pounding, As they did this year too. Some people feel a need to kill every cat they tree. I know 1 taxidermist in town had 15 females brought in. Most in the 60-100lbs range. Now that is just one taxidermist. When there is no cats left to run they will only be able to blame themselves. Yes I understand that all age ranges need to be harvested to maintain healthy population. But to think they are the ones getting all the deer is absurd. IMO wolves are the #1 predator in the EK right now, I have never seen so many in my life as we have now. Wolves will also run cats off kills and force them to have to kill again and again. This whole subject pisses me off because of how short sighted people are being right now. There is a balance that needs to be found and we are not there yet.

[Wild one]

Coach I understand were the idea comes from but there are problems I see right away with this train of thought

When you lower the WT numbers and still have high cougar number what will they feed on next? Cougars do target mostly deer but not just WT which in my opinion will only shift them to prey on more mule deer.

Predators in general have animals they target more than others but in lean times they will target none conventional prey items. This will prolong the time it will take to lower predator numbers.

In my opinion you would get a major crash in prey species before you see predator numbers drop to the desired level. Is it worth the risk of a crash in prey numbers that would result in years of waiting for them to rebound?

I am not a Bio and do not have all the answers I am only stating my opinion and the potential problems I see with this kind of program.

[Elkaholic]

I did not hunt cats this year, for several reasons, but I did talk to my buddy about the season prior and it is appearing to turn into a childish bickerfest between the guides and locals..

Guides are allegedly jumping tracks that locals have marked (seen that) and are harvesting a large number of females (clients pay the same if its a tom or a tit.) Once the quota is reached, the season is shut down and the locals can't harvest and the guides surely don't sell many pursuit only hunts...So locals feel guides are impacting "their" season, but still gaining financially...

So, in return, the locals have decided to kill as many cats period as they can, under the premise of protecting the other wildlife, but really what they are trying to do is impact the guides. The guide who has 3 or 4 clients booked for cat hunting during the prime season, suddenly gets notified that the season is closed and now he has to call his clients and cancel (there goes $5 to 10K out of the guides pocket for each hunt)...Some locals have said they will try to kill as many females as possible for the next few years (to close the season) in an attempt to make the guides go bankrupt, or just make it so hard on them (guides) to book cat hunts that are successful, that they will impact the guides income to the point that they no longer will offer cat hunts....

I am pretty sure guide's tags are guaranteed, if its closed or not. As most of their tags are because they are a commodity. I know one guide who had 2 new clients come in this week.

[Elkaholic]

They had some cats collared here in the caribou recovery zone for the point of doing new research and a study on them. It found that female tend to stick to killing deer, males well they preferred to kill elk. This project was cut short because people cant leave a cat in a tree.

[GoatGuy]

They had some cats collared here in the caribou recovery zone for the point of doing new research and a study on them. It found that female tend to stick to killing deer, males well they preferred to kill elk. This project was cut short because people cant leave a cat in a tree.

100% incorrect. Sounds like somebody in crazybrook has been telling lies........... again.
__________________________________________________ ______________________________________________


Lots of fluff in this thread. Pile of issues in the EK surrounding cougar management, predator management and female quota. Too much to get into. Long story short is when the female quota is hit, harvest is shut down. The quota in most of the region was hit and has been closed to harvest.

Adjusting the quota for females is something that will be discussed in the future and possibly adjusted to reflect population trends.

[GoatGuy]

I am pretty sure guide's tags are guaranteed, if its closed or not. As most of their tags are because they are a commodity. I know one guide who had 2 new clients come in this week.

Another incorrect. It is a combined harvest, not an allocation. When it's closed, it's closed.

[Husky7mm]

Preface: I'm one of those damn out of towners..:-? I've seen cougars on a few occasions here in the Okanagan. I've never hunted them - although one day I'd like to. I have no agenda - simply interested in learning so that I can make more informed decisions.


- Does anyone know the number of females harvested that resulted in having the season closed down? Are we talking half a dozen or several dozen?

- What is the consensus on the science involved in managing cougar numbers while Mule Deer are (allegedly) in such trouble in the EK?

- Did this decision take the mule deer situation into account or is it strictly about cougars?

- The research re: whitetails, cougars and mule deer that I read on another thread suggested that the best way to help the mule deer was to start with reducing the whitetail population. Has that happened to the point where reducing cougar numbers makes sense as a "next step"? (The research article never mentioned what should be done once WT numbers were under control)

- Once again: was the decision to close the season science based or social? It's hard to decipher some of the decisions as there seem to be so many agendas..

Dually note that it was cougars that took the transplanted caribou shortly after the transplant. Every time out it is more apparent that the mule deer in the same range will go the same way...... I don't believe there is a plan as it is not so dire in other areas. I would be shocked if the mule deer situation was considered when they closed it, or it would not have been closed. Hunters went out with a real vengence this season because of the consenus of lack of mule deer.
They were worried about overharvest of cougars. The thing is IMO the ball was rolling in the right direction the cats were getting a real dent put in them and then boom its cancel. Like putting gas on a fire and then water.

[rocksteady]

Another incorrect. It is a combined harvest, not an allocation. When it's closed, it's closed.

Thats what I thought too.. thanks for the confirmation...

[Husky7mm]

Preface: I'm one of those damn out of towners..:-? I've seen cougars on a few occasions here in the Okanagan. I've never hunted them - although one day I'd like to. I have no agenda - simply interested in learning so that I can make more informed decisions.


- Does anyone know the number of females harvested that resulted in having the season closed down? Are we talking half a dozen or several dozen?

- What is the consensus on the science involved in managing cougar numbers while Mule Deer are (allegedly) in such trouble in the EK?

- Did this decision take the mule deer situation into account or is it strictly about cougars?

- The research re: whitetails, cougars and mule deer that I read on another thread suggested that the best way to help the mule deer was to start with reducing the whitetail population. Has that happened to the point where reducing cougar numbers makes sense as a "next step"? (The research article never mentioned what should be done once WT numbers were under control)

- Once again: was the decision to close the season science based or social? It's hard to decipher some of the decisions as there seem to be so many agendas..

Coach I am an out of towner in the rest of this province just like you. Different being I don't jump on people from other area's when they express opinions or concerns about the area they are familar with. ( not dirrected at you) I am not quailified to comment for an area I spend little to no time in.

[huntcoop]

Well that sure sheds some different light on the subject.........very interesting 'rock.

[GoatGuy]

What Rocksteady stated is correct. Didn't want to get into it, but that's the real issue. Once the harvest stats are released everyone can see what happened.

[Elkaholic]

I was told this directly from the person working with the guys putting the collars on and doing the study. If it is wrong please GG enlighten me with your wisdom.

[HarryToolips]

I thought there was lots of cats in EK?

[GoatGuy]

I was told this directly from the person working with the guys putting the collars on and doing the study. If it is wrong please GG enlighten me with your wisdom.

They caught and collared cats this winter. Still monitoring kills and home range.

[Elkaholic]

So what about the cats they collared last year that were killed this winter?

[Husky7mm]

Last year also. I had heard a few with collars were shot, but that could be just coffee shop talk.....

[GoatGuy]

So what about the cats they collared last year that were killed this winter?

They are dead, no resurrections in wildlife management.

Researchers aren't miracle workers.

[Caribou_lou]

Isn't there an easy fix to this Guide/Resident fued? Have them on a separate female quota? This way there will be no competing to kill females to shut the season down.
We don't have much of a population of cougars in region 6 so I'm overall uneducated on this subject. Are guides on a cougar quota? Or are the considered a predator?

[GoatGuy]

Last year also. I had heard a few with collars were shot, but that could be just coffee shop talk.....

Nothing I know of, that are a few unscrupulous individuals who have said if they tree a collared cat they will shoot it. There are also a couple nimrods who have said that about shooting sow grizz if they reopen 4-22.

While unethical it isn't illegal. Only way to ride these kinds of people is socially - something the folks in Cranbrook are generally pretty good at.

[GoatGuy]

Isn't there an easy fix to this Guide/Resident fued? Have them on a separate female quota? This way there will be no competing to kill females to shut the season down.
We don't have much of a population of cougars in region 6 so I'm overall uneducated on this subject. Are guides on a cougar quota? Or are the considered a predator?

Quota applies to everyone. To get separate quotas it would end up being an allocated hunt. 75%/25% to start, outfitters harvest the majority of the cats.

[Elkaholic]

They are dead, no resurrections in wildlife management.

Researchers aren't miracle workers.


Well I meant more about the data they collected from these but way to be a richard about it. This is the data I have been talking about saying that females tend to eat deer more than anything else and males tend to take down elk more so than not.

[GoatGuy]

Well I meant more about the data they collected from these but way to be a richard about it. This is the data I have been talking about saying that females tend to eat deer more than anything else and males tend to take down elk more so than not.
Gotta give you guys a hard time every once in a while.

there will be a paper written up available to the public.

[BlacktailStalker]

They are dead, no resurrections in wildlife management.

Researchers aren't miracle workers.

:lol: !

Wow sounds like some little kids bickering over cats, what a stupid mentality of the locals towards the outfitters :shock: and the collar studies. Do they think that studies don't benefit them in a positive way at all, ever ?
"haha take that Mr.Outfitter, now your dogs get to sit at home... wait a minute mine do too, joke is on me."
I guess most are too daft to realize cats arent the primary source of income for many outfitters. Somehow I would think this could bite everyone in the ass eventually...
Good to hear there is no over and above allocations though with all those cats being killed, in AB the GO has their allocation over and above and this is taken into consideration for the quotas mind you, there is also only 24 Non res allocations in the whole province IIRC, the outfitter is always entitled to their tag. My buddy LOVES it when all the meatheads shut er down quick, means there are a pile of pigs to sort through to find king tut without bumping into anyone !

Maybe the residents should relax a bit... the outfitters are hammering the same cats they are, look at this trophy from the elk valley outfitter this year LOL

http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y305/TaylenJames/IMG_0219_zps7619fcc3.jpg

[BlacktailStalker]

I am curious how many collars go dead or are destroyed as opposed to the cat being considered dead and no recovery ?

This collar was crushed by another big tom and it was obvious it was no longer working. The bios were contacted and very happy to hear this to help add a bit more data to the puzzle from where the cat was last recorded to where it hit the dirt, which was a couple years.

http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y305/TaylenJames/20121228_084506_zpsbb2c245a.jpg

http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y305/TaylenJames/5a7f0f83-b162-4ac8-bb38-fa1e87dab241_zpsaeabd02c.jpg

[Elkaholic]

Good stuff BTS couldn't have said it better myself.

[Husky7mm]

I am curious how many collars go dead or are destroyed as opposed to the cat being considered dead and no recovery ?

This collar was crushed by another big tom and it was obvious it was no longer working. The bios were contacted and very happy to hear this to help add a bit more data to the puzzle from where the cat was last recorded to where it hit the dirt, which was a couple years.

http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y305/TaylenJames/20121228_084506_zpsbb2c245a.jpg

http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y305/TaylenJames/5a7f0f83-b162-4ac8-bb38-fa1e87dab241_zpsaeabd02c.jpg

Nice cat! Although you may be an honest guy, others aren't.... some would destroy or damage that collar after they shot the cat with the collar on it.

[bighornbob]

I did not hunt cats this year, for several reasons, but I did talk to my buddy about the season prior and it is appearing to turn into a childish bickerfest between the guides and locals..

Guides are allegedly jumping tracks that locals have marked (seen that) and are harvesting a large number of females (clients pay the same if its a tom or a tit.) Once the quota is reached, the season is shut down and the locals can't harvest and the guides surely don't sell many pursuit only hunts...So locals feel guides are impacting "their" season, but still gaining financially...

So, in return, the locals have decided to kill as many cats period as they can, under the premise of protecting the other wildlife, but really what they are trying to do is impact the guides. The guide who has 3 or 4 clients booked for cat hunting during the prime season, suddenly gets notified that the season is closed and now he has to call his clients and cancel (there goes $5 to 10K out of the guides pocket for each hunt)...Some locals have said they will try to kill as many females as possible for the next few years (to close the season) in an attempt to make the guides go bankrupt, or just make it so hard on them (guides) to book cat hunts that are successful, that they will impact the guides income to the point that they no longer will offer cat hunts....

What do you mean by marking tracks and the guides jumping them????

BHB

[Husky7mm]

I do not get the 25%/ 75% with magority going to outfitter?

[GoatGuy]

It would be 75 residents 25 g/o to start.

[rocksteady]

What do you mean by marking tracks and the guides jumping them????

BHB

Snowing , a few hours before daylight, you drive the roads til you fins a fresh track... Rather than sitting there for hours, waiting for daylight, you mark it with boot tracks, cigarette pack, tim hortons cup, etc so that if someone else finds it, they realize it is already spoken for and you will be returning to run it at first light.... For example, you cut a track at the base of a mountain, you mark the track and drive the whole road around the mountain to see if you can find fresher track from same animal.

The guys I ran with respected marked tracks, but they also had forest industry channels on their truck radios, so were also talking to each other...

Coming back to your original marked tracks, cause you drove for an hour around the mountain and realize the cat is "boxed in" by roads, and only one track going into the box and finding a guide sitting there with some high paying client from wherever, and he is claiming he found the track and will run it with his client, really causes some tense moments in the bush...

[steel_ram]

Snowing , a few hours before daylight, you drive the roads til you fins a fresh track... Rather than sitting there for hours, waiting for daylight, you mark it with boot tracks, cigarette pack, tim hortons cup, etc so that if someone else finds it, they realize it is already spoken for and you will be returning to run it at first light.... For example, you cut a track at the base of a mountain, you mark the track and drive the whole road around the mountain to see if you can find fresher track from same animal.

The guys I ran with respected marked tracks, but they also had forest industry channels on their truck radios, so were also talking to each other...

Coming back to your original marked tracks, cause you drove for an hour around the mountain and realize the cat is "boxed in" by roads, and only one track going into the box and finding a guide sitting there with some high paying client from wherever, and he is claiming he found the track and will run it with his client, really causes some tense moments in the bush...

Sounds odd. Try claiming a track in any other kind of hunting. Good Luck! Besides, your not supposed to be hunting prior to one hour before sunrise.

[GoatGuy]

:lol: !

Wow sounds like some little kids bickering over cats, what a stupid mentality of the locals towards the outfitters :shock: and the collar studies. Do they think that studies don't benefit them in a positive way at all, ever ?
"haha take that Mr.Outfitter, now your dogs get to sit at home... wait a minute mine do too, joke is on me."
I guess most are too daft to realize cats arent the primary source of income for many outfitters. Somehow I would think this could bite everyone in the ass eventually...
Good to hear there is no over and above allocations though with all those cats being killed, in AB the GO has their allocation over and above and this is taken into consideration for the quotas mind you, there is also only 24 Non res allocations in the whole province IIRC, the outfitter is always entitled to their tag. My buddy LOVES it when all the meatheads shut er down quick, means there are a pile of pigs to sort through to find king tut without bumping into anyone !

Maybe the residents should relax a bit... the outfitters are hammering the same cats they are, look at this trophy from the elk valley outfitter this year LOL


The harvest stats will be out in the next couple months - be interesting reading.

There have been smaller...........

[rocksteady]

Sounds odd. Try claiming a track in any other kind of hunting. Good Luck! Besides, your not supposed to be hunting prior to one hour before sunrise.

I have only seen this in the cougar hunting community and is it really hunting when you are just driving a road, looking for tracks???

[houndogger]

Change the season to spring thru early fall...that would leave the kindergarden kids out of the hound game with no snow...

[Husky7mm]

Well I for one hold no resentment to the guide and guests killing lots of cats, and females too, but I dont have hounds. My bias is on the other side of the equation, a deer lover. Every cat gone is 50 more deer. If the local houndsman want to chase cats all winter and let them all go in hopes of a trophy,long season and lots of action the deer pay the price...lots of mouths to feed.

[frenchbar]

Sounds odd. Try claiming a track in any other kind of hunting. Good Luck! Besides, your not supposed to be hunting prior to one hour before sunrise. thats f@#ked up if you ask me..claiming tracks with a timmies cup .cig pak .. hahahahaha ... ive heard everything now..maybe instead of littering .they could erect a sign 'dont follow these kitty tracks they belong to me '.

[Whonnock Boy]

Yeah, then the 'track claimer' finds another bigger set of tracks 5 miles up the road and leaves the other tracks be. Sounds like nothing but problems.

[BiG Boar]

I am curious how many collars go dead or are destroyed as opposed to the cat being considered dead and no recovery ?

http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y305/TaylenJames/20121228_084506_zpsbb2c245a.jpg


I have finished a number of cougar skulls and its surprising how many of them have holes in their head from fighting. I am putting together a cat right now that is missing 2 of his spinal fins. On top of the neck.

[GoatGuy]

Change the season to spring thru early fall...that would leave the kindergarden kids out of the hound game with no snow...

Hahaha, there's lots of tools *IF* harvest needs to be reduced. Another thing is to take away the snow machines and take away the tracks on the quads - that'll turn a few heads.

[rocksteady]

thats f@#ked up if you ask me..claiming tracks with a timmies cup .cig pak .. hahahahaha ... ive heard everything now..maybe instead of littering .they could erect a sign 'dont follow these kitty tracks they belong to me '.

They pick up their "markers" and toss them back in the truck before they run the track...most of the time.

[rocksteady]

Yeah, then the 'track claimer' finds another bigger set of tracks 5 miles up the road and leaves the other tracks be. Sounds like nothing but problems.

Not that many cats that close in one area, so have never heard of it happening

[frenchbar]

[QUOTE=rocksteady;1285116]They pick up their "markers" and toss them back in the truck before they run the track...most of the time.[/QUOTE
im just funnin..im sure the local cat chasers have a code amongst themselves unbeknowing to other cat hunters that may come from other places to hunt ..

[houndogger]

Hahaha, there's lots of tools *IF* harvest needs to be reduced. Another thing is to take away the snow machines and take away the tracks on the quads - that'll turn a few heads.
True that would help lots but taking away the simplicity of hunting cats in snow would finish most guide outfitters and all deer hunters with dogs...will never happen but one can dream lol

[BlacktailStalker]

Not that many cats that close in one area, so have never heard of it happening

Never heard of two or three toms courting a female in heat ? Happens every day. Why do you think every GOOD tom in a tree is torn to shit. Look at the collar I posted.

[rocksteady]

You have to remember there are iirc 400 members of the EK houndsman, so its fairly competitive...

[rocksteady]

Never heard of two or three toms courting a female in heat ? Happens every day. Why do you think every GOOD tom in a tree is torn to shit. Look at the collar I posted.

I am sure it happens, with my experience chasing cougars we never found tracks that close together. Maybe the female wasn't in heat where we were? I am by no means an expert, just telling you what I have seen... Not like there is a cougar round every bend, like the deer are

[BlacktailStalker]

Rock; just why the marking track thing is goofy IMO, for the reason I stated. If guys left the females alone they'd see it. Live bait.



I have finished a number of cougar skulls and its surprising how many of them have holes in their head from fighting. I am putting together a cat right now that is missing 2 of his spinal fins. On top of the neck.

Yeah pretty cool seeing that kind of stuff. Crippled forearms and ankles, crushed skulls, noses/septums, blinded, toes often bitten off, crushed vertebrae... ruthless animals, lb for lb the toughest animal running the rocks.

[hunter1947]

I am no cat hunter by no means I do understand a little about hunting for these cats educate some of these hound hunter that don't no anything about cougar hunting the difference between a male cat and a female that they will shoot this is why management had to shut the season down it does spoil it for others out there that know there stuff.

Not saying all but there are some that don't have a clew when it comes to cat hunting and its these hunters that cause the season to be shut down harvesting to many female cats..


My opinion any person can get a few hounds and then they think they are cat hunter a short course in place to take if you get hounds and want to hunt cats you are new at it you should learn first before shooting.. ..

[Elkaholic]

Im sorry but if people leave "markers" on a track and try to say that it is theirs too f'n bad. If you find a track you want to run sit on it and babysit it. Usually guys dont go alone and while one guy sits on it the other check the rest of the story to make sure they are on the right end. If they want to run it, be on the track. Plain and simple.

[Husky7mm]

[/Yeah pretty cool seeing that kind of stuff. Crippled forearms and ankles, crushed skulls, noses/septums, blinded, toes often bitten off, crushed vertebrae... ruthless animals, lb for lb the toughest animal running the rocks.[/QUOTE]

Wow crazy! I dont know if people see that around here very often.

[ramcam]

Blacktail, the picture of the cat you posted from the Elk Valley taken by an outfitter is actually a cougar that was shot by conservation for killing deer in Elkford. FACT.

[happyhunter]

Blacktail, the picture of the cat you posted from the Elk Valley taken by an outfitter is actually a cougar that was shot by conservation for killing deer in Elkford. FACT.

Yeah I noticed the caption in the picture says "taken beside my house off a deer kill"

[Boner]

thats f@#ked up if you ask me..claiming tracks with a timmies cup .cig pak .. hahahahaha ... ive heard everything now..maybe instead of littering .they could erect a sign 'dont follow these kitty tracks they belong to me '.

They do it here too, only it's moose road hunters dropping beer cans at the entrance to a side road.

At least it seems like it.

[goatdancer]

Sounds odd. Try claiming a track in any other kind of hunting. Good Luck! Besides, your not supposed to be hunting prior to one hour before sunrise.

Exactly. Here's the definition of hunting from the regs

Hunt & Hunting
- includes shooting at,
attracting, searching for, chasing, pursuing, following
after or on the trail of, stalking, or lying
in wait for wildlife or attempting to do any of
those things, whether or not the wildlife is then
or subsequently wounded, killed or captured:
(a) with intention to capture the wildlife, or
(b) while in possession of a firearm or other
weapon.

[Jack Russell]

They do it here too, only it's moose road hunters dropping beer cans at the entrance to a side road.

At least it seems like it.

You noticed that too, hey? Odd.

[bighornbob]

Snowing , a few hours before daylight, you drive the roads til you fins a fresh track... Rather than sitting there for hours, waiting for daylight, you mark it with boot tracks, cigarette pack, tim hortons cup, etc so that if someone else finds it, they realize it is already spoken for and you will be returning to run it at first light.... For example, you cut a track at the base of a mountain, you mark the track and drive the whole road around the mountain to see if you can find fresher track from same animal.

The guys I ran with respected marked tracks, but they also had forest industry channels on their truck radios, so were also talking to each other...

Coming back to your original marked tracks, cause you drove for an hour around the mountain and realize the cat is "boxed in" by roads, and only one track going into the box and finding a guide sitting there with some high paying client from wherever, and he is claiming he found the track and will run it with his client, really causes some tense moments in the bush...

OK thats what I thought it was. But like others I think thats F**ked up. For the first thing, as others have stated, its actually against the law. I doubt anyones been charged with it, but if a fight breaks out or the CO's are called, I guarentee someone will be charged with "hunting at a closed time"

Second, if I came out there and I find a track at daylight how am I to know that the timmies cup beside the track means someone else has found it and I am not to chase it. Let alone a boot track? If I saw boot tracks I figured someone got out to look and thought it was not big enough and moved on.

Third, using your example of what the cat hunters are doing by marking, would they then be alright if I people started marking whitetail and elk spots. I can see it now, drive into a clearcut and you see a sign saying "I spotted a 6 point bull right before dark at the top of the clearcut, I will be back in the morning unless I spot another bull closer to the road somewhere else. I would appreciate if you dont hunt the elk I spotted last night". Do you see how funny that looks. Thats how the cat marking looks to the rest us.

I imagine the marking thing started when there was only a few cat guys hunting and there were always other spots to go if you found a marked track. But with so many guys out there, as you guys say, I am sure the locals are "stealing" marked spots just as much as the outfitters but the outfitters get the brunt of it.

BHB

[Scotty-B]

If you want to mark a track, use your truck. Don't litter.

[BlacktailStalker]

If you want to mark a track, use your truck. Don't litter.

Yup, sit on it or lose it. Send your buddy to freshen it up and stand there or whatever... or an even better idea, go a bit further to get away from this problem to begin with !
Last thing a guy wants to worry about is dogs ending up on a road with what sounds like, a bunch of boneheads, roaring around hating each other and competing. Sounds like a sure recipe for trouble.

[huntcoop]

Blacktail, the picture of the cat you posted from the Elk Valley taken by an outfitter is actually a cougar that was shot by conservation for killing deer in Elkford. FACT.

No reply from BTS yet?

[BlacktailStalker]

No reply from BTS yet?


I havent read much of whats posted.

Weird.
Pretty sure whomever took the pic lives there and said first hand, "This is the kind of cats 'she' is killing around here." Rumours I guess...
Odd it isn't a CO holding the cat, so I believed it as I didn't know they let people pose for pics with problematic animals.
Either way, doesn't matter... we all know all details on the internet aren't 100% factual.
I'm fine with being wrong, guess I found it comical because of what IS around there.

[huntcoop]

Seems like an interesting group of cat hunters out there in the WCoots. A lot of hate seems to be blooming, sad really.

[rocksteady]

Exactly. Here's the definition of hunting from the regs

Hunt & Hunting
- includes shooting at,
attracting, searching for, chasing, pursuing, following
after or on the trail of, stalking, or lying
in wait for wildlife or attempting to do any of
those things, whether or not the wildlife is then
or subsequently wounded, killed or captured:
(a) with intention to capture the wildlife, or
(b) while in possession of a firearm or other
weapon.




The CO's do not enforce it cause they know they will not win it... People are not hunting, they are looking for tracks...There is slim to no chance of driving along and finding a cougar standing in its tracks, IMHO..I doubt they would stand there long enough for oyu to ever get a shot off either...

So here is a quiz for you... I decide to go up the top end of the bull river to hunt elk, leave at O'dark 30, giving me time to drive up there and hike the mountain to be on top for first grey light. I am driving, i have a weapon (rifle or bow), complete with tags, in an open season, but half way up a herd of elk cross the road doing 90 but I know where they may bed up. I stop and wait til first light and then start following them or try cutting them off in the dark (go round about way to be in position way up the mountain for first light) is that considered as "hunting"????

What if I don't see any elk, but hike in the dark for 2 hours, same scenario, got a gun, tags, open season, full intentions of killing one, am I "hunting" for those 2 hours in the dark???

[bighornbob]

The CO's do not enforce it cause they know they will not win it... People are not hunting, they are looking for tracks...There is slim to no chance of driving along and finding a cougar standing in its tracks, IMHO..I doubt they would stand there long enough for oyu to ever get a shot off either...

So here is a quiz for you... I decide to go up the top end of the bull river to hunt elk, leave at O'dark 30, giving me time to drive up there and hike the mountain to be on top for first grey light. I am driving, i have a weapon (rifle or bow), complete with tags, in an open season, but half way up a herd of elk cross the road doing 90 but I know where they may bed up. I stop and wait til first light and then start following them or try cutting them off in the dark (go round about way to be in position way up the mountain for first light) is that considered as "hunting"????

What if I don't see any elk, but hike in the dark for 2 hours, same scenario, got a gun, tags, open season, full intentions of killing one, am I "hunting" for those 2 hours in the dark???

Try driving the Alfalpha fields outside of cranbrook at 1am with a powerfull spotlight with a rifle in the truck and see what the CO's say. You can argue you are not hunting and only looking for deer but you will still be charged and you will lose in court (been done here in kamloops a few times). So how is this different?

I worked with a guy that spotted a deer from the Coquihalla in a clearcut. He knew how to get to the clearcut from the nearest exit and went in and shot the buck. A CO pulled up and was going to charge him with hunting from the highway as the CO said he spotted it from the highway. Lucky for him the deer was more then 400 yards from the highway or he would have been charged.

Like I said I doubt you would ever get charged as it is a grey area, but if guys start bitching I would bet charges would be laid. Like a lot of the grey areas charges aren't laid unless there is a complaint.

Using you example, sitting in a treestand a hour before dark is also illegal. Which if you ask me is, based on how the regs are written, is illegal. Has anyone been charged with it, I doubt it as no one has complained or not enough have complained about it.

Like I said when it becomes a problem, like if a out of town CO shows up for a cat hunt and does not know the marking "rules" and a local guy muscles or intimidates him out of the spot. I would bet charges would be laid.

Thats what happened in a few states south of the border it got to the point that guys hunting at daylight were being beaten to tracks by guys coming up two hours before daylight. Then the two hour guys were being beaten by the 4 hour guys. Pretty soon there were tons of guys were driving around at night. So a few states passed laws that you cant look for tracks in the dark or sit on tracks.

Regardless if its legal or not, could you imagine if guys started putting up signs like in my previous post.

BHB

[LBM]

Try driving the Alfalpha fields outside of cranbrook at 1am with a powerfull spotlight with a rifle in the truck and see what the CO's say. You can argue you are not hunting and only looking for deer but you will still be charged and you will lose in court (been done here in kamloops a few times). So how is this different?

I worked with a guy that spotted a deer from the Coquihalla in a clearcut. He knew how to get to the clearcut from the nearest exit and went in and shot the buck. A CO pulled up and was going to charge him with hunting from the highway as the CO said he spotted it from the highway. Lucky for him the deer was more then 400 yards from the highway or he would have been charged.

Like I said I doubt you would ever get charged as it is a grey area, but if guys start bitching I would bet charges would be laid. Like a lot of the grey areas charges aren't laid unless there is a complaint.

Using you example, sitting in a treestand a hour before dark is also illegal. Which if you ask me is, based on how the regs are written, is illegal. Has anyone been charged with it, I doubt it as no one has complained or not enough have complained about it.

Like I said when it becomes a problem, like if a out of town CO shows up for a cat hunt and does not know the marking "rules" and a local guy muscles or intimidates him out of the spot. I would bet charges would be laid.

Thats what happened in a few states south of the border it got to the point that guys hunting at daylight were being beaten to tracks by guys coming up two hours before daylight. Then the two hour guys were being beaten by the 4 hour guys. Pretty soon there were tons of guys were driving around at night. So a few states passed laws that you cant look for tracks in the dark or sit on tracks.

Regardless if its legal or not, could you imagine if guys started putting up signs like in my previous post.

BHB

People from grandforks/okanogan are allready putting signs up during elk season in the EK, they put them on roads saying that theres hunters in the area.
In the past there has been charges laid for looking for tracks at night, dont think they ever stuck, this mainly came about from groups doing 8 to 12 hr shifts
24hrs aday looking for tracks.

[coach]

People from grandforks/okanogan are allready putting signs up during elk season in the EK, they put them on roads saying that theres hunters in the area.

Ya - that's just the common courtesy all us R8 hunters use. We put out signs with our names, addresses, date of birth, blood types.. and a list of all the animals we've seen. Surprised this hasn't caught on in more regions yet.. :-D

[bugler]

When I've been out it seems the track marking thing works pretty good for the most part. Only once has my group been scooped, and it was by an outfitter on a small track this year. Whatever, it's a bit like the dick that blows past you on a quad when your quietly walking into a dead end road, you shrug and move on. You can't force your etiquette on others. Most guys honor it though.

Many wont shoot females early because they don't want to be part of shutting it down early, but as the harvest approaches quota some will go out and take one, then leave inspection to the last day, all to try and get a few more killed before it's over. I was hoping to get a bonus cat myself but the season closed a couple days early. For me it wouldn't have been a trophy, just an execution mostly. I would have given the hide away. The quota was reached without my contribution so it's all good. Here's hoping the quota is adjusted upward, or removed altogether, for next year.

[houndogger]

Many wont shoot females early because they don't want to be part of shutting it down early, but as the harvest approaches quota some will go out and take one, then leave inspection to the last day, all to try and get a few more killed before it's over. I was hoping to get a bonus cat myself but the season closed a couple days early. For me it wouldn't have been a trophy, just an execution mostly. I would have given the hide away. The quota was reached without my contribution so it's all good. Here's hoping the quota is adjusted upward, or removed altogether, for next year.[/QUOTE]
Spoken like a true houndsmen....glad I live no where you. lol

[Husky7mm]

Many wont shoot females early because they don't want to be part of shutting it down early, but as the harvest approaches quota some will go out and take one, then leave inspection to the last day, all to try and get a few more killed before it's over. I was hoping to get a bonus cat myself but the season closed a couple days early. For me it wouldn't have been a trophy, just an execution mostly. I would have given the hide away. The quota was reached without my contribution so it's all good. Here's hoping the quota is adjusted upward, or removed altogether, for next year.
Spoken like a true houndsmen....glad I live no where you. lol[/QUOTE]


SPoken like a true kitty lover, most that hunt want a chance at ungulates, deer, elk, moose..... you fail to see the problem here.... you houndsman are a minority, your cat desires conflict a deminishing ugulate population here in the EK. Be happy you don't face the same challenges for both the cougar population/ component and the depleteing ungualtes

[BlacktailStalker]

Ya but at the end of the day your problem is wolves and none of you are doing anything about it. Nothing.
Cat kills aren't localized to one area til populations are ACTUALLY depleted. But I hear you.
'Nuff said

[houndogger]

Well I live on a island that has the highest density of cougars in the world so I know that cats ain't your problem. Yes cats eat deer but they kill what they need and eat them. Your problem is wolves as with the rest of the province...

[Mr. Dean]

There are three things that guarentee drama on HBC.....mulw deer, sheep and cats.

SSS

4
You forgot long range hunting... :wink:

[blackbart]

I am not a cat hunter, but do buy a cougar tag almost every year on the off chance that opportunity present itself. I have had the chance on a cougar during GOS, but did not have the tag in hand and let the cat continue on.

Question for the serious cat hunters. How does driving around in your $40-$50k pickup rigged up with dog boxes and sleds during the night give you the right to not let another cat hunter run a track that you "stomped" on an hour or eight previous? I really am having a hard time getting this. If the track is really that interesting to you why don't you run it? Afraid of losing your dogs and the $1500 gps collars they have on to track them with ranges similar to NASA technology? Afraid of actually having to walk more than one km to shoot a cat out of a tree????

I see tremendously big cougar tracks year after year in one of my hunting spots, but never see a cat hunter. Hmmm? Might have to leave your comfort zones and hike for a fair bit to find those big tracks that no one else is stomping on.

As always I am open to education and or correction on the topic. I do however see a whole lot of trucks with dog boxes hitting the coffee shops and driving the mainlines. Don't see too many of them parked with guys out walking.

[Husky7mm]

I am not a cat hunter, but do buy a cougar tag almost every year on the off chance that opportunity present itself. I have had the chance on a cougar during GOS, but did not have the tag in hand and let the cat continue on.

Question for the serious cat hunters. How does driving around in your $40-$50k pickup rigged up with dog boxes and sleds during the night give you the right to not let another cat hunter run a track that you "stomped" on an hour or eight previous? I really am having a hard time getting this. If the track is really that interesting to you why don't you run it? Afraid of losing your dogs and the $1500 gps collars they have on to track them with ranges similar to NASA technology? Afraid of actually having to walk more than one km to shoot a cat out of a tree????

I see tremendously big cougar tracks year after year in one of my hunting spots, but never see a cat hunter. Hmmm? Might have to leave your comfort zones and hike for a fair bit to find those big tracks that no one else is stomping on.

As always I am open to education and or correction on the topic. I do however see a whole lot of trucks with dog boxes hitting the coffee shops and driving the mainlines. Don't see too many of them parked with guys out walking.

Pertty good abservative for a non cat hunter... black hat bart

[BlacktailStalker]

I agree 100% blackhat. Shoot me a pm, lets go look at some of these monsters. ;)

[Husky7mm]

I can tell by rolling around on my tracked quad all winter that many cougars know where the roads are, but most feel that eventualy they will cross and here in the EK there will be 400 plus guys with hounds that are ready, lurking and, waiting for it.....

[Ambush]

So how the heck is a guy that really wants a cat supposed to get one. I carry a tag "just in case" but that's like playing the lottery, with worse odds.

Two years ago I thought I had a fair chance as there was an old cougar around my deer area and I found a kill. But the CO's shot that one for eating dogs.
Year before that, two of us had an incidental run in that could have worked but to far for a bow.

When I read all the cats threads, it seems to be pretty much a "catch 22". If you don't have hounds, you ain't a serious cat guy so you don't deserve a cat. If you do have hounds, you don't need help. If you do get to chase with someone, good chance he won't let you shoot 'cause then he won't have as many cats to run.

I've set a goal and a fair chase cougar is part of that goal but I'm starting to think that may well have to happen just through sheer, blind luck.
But like they say even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while, so I'll keep having the tag in my pocket.

[Whonnock Boy]

So how the heck is a guy that really wants a cat supposed to get one. I carry a tag "just in case" but that's like playing the lottery, with worse odds.

Two years ago I thought I had a fair chance as there was an old cougar around my deer area and I found a kill. But the CO's shot that one for eating dogs.
Year before that, two of us had an incidental run in that could have worked but to far for a bow.

When I read all the cats threads, it seems to be pretty much a "catch 22". If you don't have hounds, you ain't a serious cat guy so you don't deserve a cat. If you do have hounds, you don't need help. If you do get to chase with someone, good chance he won't let you shoot 'cause then he won't have as many cats to run.

I've set a goal and a fair chase cougar is part of that goal but I'm starting to think that may well have to happen just through sheer, blind luck.
But like they say even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while, so I'll keep having the tag in my pocket.

I hear ya. I have never seen a cougar in the wild, and seeing that I am due, last year was the first time I ever bought a tag. Funny though, about 10 years ago I was hunting with an old friend, somewhat new to the hunting game. What happens? He's sitting on a trail waiting for a whitetail buck, and all hell breaks loose in the timber. A cat was killing a dear. Not long after a young cat came out to within 15 feet of him. All he had was fur in his scope. He damn near had to shoo the animal away. So, moral of the story is, you have to be a new hunter, with no tag to see cougars. :-D

[The Dude]

4
You forgot long range hunting... :wink:

5. And dogs :D

[Whonnock Boy]

5. And dogs :D
6. Aboriginals :-?

[The Dude]

Did ever tell you guys the story of how I went sheep hunting one time, looking for a full curl (or close to it, I mean, who cares, right?) when I wounded two rams in the leg with long range 900 yard shots, and then this aboriginal dude let his emaciated Rez dogs loose to chase female cats with kittens in her pouch right on front of me? I wouldn't have cared, but this was Region 4 and I had my sights lined up on the LAST Mulw Deer buck in all of region 4? The thing took off like it had rockets up its ass.

Man, was I choked.

[BlacktailStalker]

Your mom's whiskey is tainted....

[The Dude]

Made with real Taint!

[bugler]

So how the heck is a guy that really wants a cat supposed to get one. I carry a tag "just in case" but that's like playing the lottery, with worse odds.

Two years ago I thought I had a fair chance as there was an old cougar around my deer area and I found a kill. But the CO's shot that one for eating dogs.
Year before that, two of us had an incidental run in that could have worked but to far for a bow.

When I read all the cats threads, it seems to be pretty much a "catch 22". If you don't have hounds, you ain't a serious cat guy so you don't deserve a cat. If you do have hounds, you don't need help. If you do get to chase with someone, good chance he won't let you shoot 'cause then he won't have as many cats to run.

I've set a goal and a fair chase cougar is part of that goal but I'm starting to think that may well have to happen just through sheer, blind luck.
But like they say even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while, so I'll keep having the tag in my pocket.

Where we live and hunt right now there are so many it ain't that farfetched to get one without dogs, even with your bow. Dec 2011 I had one come within easy bow range of my stand while I was waiting for whitetails. No tag so I let it walk. Bought a tag this year early and from that same stand had a group of 3 come within 60 yards, just bad luck they veered off the trail. Also, earlier in November my main bowhunting buddy had one bound toward his quad when he stopped to look at some does. He did not notice it as he was fixed on the deer but his 12 year old son on the back spotted the cat. It crouched in easy bow range while the kid was trying to point it out to his dad. He had trouble finding it because it was way closer than he expected! No tag so he scared it off with his flare gun. He'll be buying his tag early next year!

These kinds of stories are not that uncommon here anymore. They are everywhere. Keep the faith, it can happen.

[aggiehunter]

I have a trail cam pic from under my treestand (2012 season) with 3 cats in the pic...heard them growling at each other or something about 3 in the afternoon...the EK seems to have some good cat pops in the wintering areas...but alas I only spend 10 days there in the late season so don't really know...my nephew had one walk by his stand...no tag tho....yes we are all packing tags from now on.
"Around here we are already putting the pressure on the whitetail and both species are way down. I don't believe resource competition or genetic introgression are a problem right now, no way there are enough beasts to eat all of the available food. I do believe the female component is getting ready to collapse. Maybe I can help save a couple of them from starvation." -bugler

[Husky7mm]

Where we live and hunt right now there are so many it ain't that farfetched to get one without dogs, even with your bow. Dec 2011 I had one come within easy bow range of my stand while I was waiting for whitetails. No tag so I let it walk. Bought a tag this year early and from that same stand had a group of 3 come within 60 yards, just bad luck they veered off the trail. Also, earlier in November my main bowhunting buddy had one bound toward his quad when he stopped to look at some does. He did not notice it as he was fixed on the deer but his 12 year old son on the back spotted the cat. It crouched in easy bow range while the kid was trying to point it out to his dad. He had trouble finding it because it was way closer than he expected! No tag so he scared it off with his flare gun. He'll be buying his tag early next year!

These kinds of stories are not that uncommon here anymore. They are everywhere. Keep the faith, it can happen.

I had 3 visuals on cats this year, 2 from the truck and one while walking through the bush to another cat that was treed. I would not have been able to shoot any with a bow as they were to far but 2 could have been shot with the rifle, the other was to quick..... lots of cats!

[coach]

So.. Did overly conservative elk and whitetail seasons result in an explosion in the cat population?

[horshur]

So.. Did overly conservative elk and whitetail seasons result in an explosion in the cat population?

I think first it has to be determined if there really is a "explosion" of cougar numbers.....cougar are not lemmings!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I hear you Ambush. I usually pack a cougar tag but didn't in 2011. Had one walk by my stand @ 15 yrds with bow in hand. Saw "something" coming and was waiting and ready.
After climbing down at the end of the day and checking the tracks, I'm pretty sure it was a female. Pretty sure it was probably my only chance I'll ever get at a cat like that.

How many of you climb into your treestand in the dark "lying in wait" for a whitetail??

SSS

[Ambush]

How many of you climb into your treestand in the dark "lying in wait" for a whitetail??SSS

I usually get into my stand well before light, normally waiting for moose or mule deer though. Problem is, there's nothing to do for that hour before light, so I sleep. I'm so good at it now that as soon as I get into a stand I start to nod off.

Sounds like there is enough guys having cats wander by that it's still at least a dream with some hope!

Good luck to the rest of you "houndless" hunters to.

[Husky7mm]

So.. Did overly conservative elk and whitetail seasons result in an explosion in the cat population?
It may have started it, however its more about damage control now. Mix in the last 3-4 years of liberal seasons, a big spike in wolves( which poach of cats) and tonnes of guys chasing cats of their kills and then not shooting them, its a receipt for disaster. The prey is not doing to well.....I doubt they exploded, there have always been a healthy population here to my understanding. Their certainly at a high.

[limit time]

4
You forgot long range hunting... :wink:

Hey, hey! Lets not forget "SKYBUSTING"

[limit time]

It may have started it, however its more about damage control now. Mix in the last 3-4 years of liberal seasons, a big spike in wolves( which poach of cats) and tonnes of guys chasing cats of their kills and then not shooting them, its a receipt for disaster. The prey is not doing to well.....I doubt they exploded, there have always been a healthy population here to my understanding. Their certainly at a high.

If populations are so high? What the f@@ck is all the fighting about??

[LBM]

If populations are so high? What the f@@ck is all the fighting about??

Cat populations are not high, some MUs may have a health population but many dont they are actually down in numbers.
Its basically a lack of knowledge on the cats and you can see that in most posts by husky7mm and bugler.

[LBM]

So.. Did overly conservative elk and whitetail seasons result in an explosion in the cat population?

There is no explosion in the cat population.

[LBM]

Where we live and hunt right now there are so many it ain't that farfetched to get one without dogs, even with your bow. Dec 2011 I had one come within easy bow range of my stand while I was waiting for whitetails. No tag so I let it walk. Bought a tag this year early and from that same stand had a group of 3 come within 60 yards, just bad luck they veered off the trail. Also, earlier in November my main bowhunting buddy had one bound toward his quad when he stopped to look at some does. He did not notice it as he was fixed on the deer but his 12 year old son on the back spotted the cat. It crouched in easy bow range while the kid was trying to point it out to his dad. He had trouble finding it because it was way closer than he expected! No tag so he scared it off with his flare gun. He'll be buying his tag early next year!

These kinds of stories are not that uncommon here anymore. They are everywhere. Keep the faith, it can happen.
So were you planning on shooting the mother or one of the kittens.

[LBM]

I know one of those females, was jumped up off of a ram, it had just killed.. To me, thats a good cat to kill.
Your right about, whats a guy gonna do with a 80lbs cat cape, sell it for 100 bux? 1/2 a tank of diesel???lol
You hound guys always have an excuse for killing something, so what if it killed a ram the rams dead its not coming back. The next guy says oh this cat killed a deer its gotta die, oh this one walked across a ranchers land and he has cows, sheep or horses its gotta die, this one killed a dog its gotta die. You guys always make some reason to justify why its gotta be killed.

[LBM]

I am not a cat hunter, but do buy a cougar tag almost every year on the off chance that opportunity present itself. I have had the chance on a cougar during GOS, but did not have the tag in hand and let the cat continue on.

Question for the serious cat hunters. How does driving around in your $40-$50k pickup rigged up with dog boxes and sleds during the night give you the right to not let another cat hunter run a track that you "stomped" on an hour or eight previous? I really am having a hard time getting this. If the track is really that interesting to you why don't you run it? Afraid of losing your dogs and the $1500 gps collars they have on to track them with ranges similar to NASA technology? Afraid of actually having to walk more than one km to shoot a cat out of a tree????

I see tremendously big cougar tracks year after year in one of my hunting spots, but never see a cat hunter. Hmmm? Might have to leave your comfort zones and hike for a fair bit to find those big tracks that no one else is stomping on.

As always I am open to education and or correction on the topic. I do however see a whole lot of trucks with dog boxes hitting the coffee shops and driving the mainlines. Don't see too many of them parked with guys out walking.

Well I did upgrade my 87 pickup to an 89 a couple years ago but didnt cost $40 grand was also giving an older skidoo that I have used acouple times to look for tracks but only if someone has allready broken a trail first for mine doesnt have enough power to bust through the snow. I do beleive its good to have some sort of collar on your dog in case there is need in helping find him, but ran for years with out them but do not think the technology is as good as you think. Dont like drinking coffee before a hunt I find it dehydrates you to much before a walk.
I see the coastal expert has all ready offered you his services, but if that doesnt pan out and your into walking and following dog/cat tracks to were ever they take you to get some pictures im usally into it.

[Husky7mm]

33 post in 4 years and 27 of them are about saving dwindling region 4 cougar..... your kidding me right!

[Husky7mm]

I do have a lack of knowledge in cats, thats is no secret.... But we are starting to trip over them, and the bulk of hunters want deer and elk and not to feed them to strong population of cats!

[Husky7mm]

If populations are so high? What the f@@ck is all the fighting about??
Its in the difference of opinions and where peoples priorities lie.

[houndogger]

I do have a lack of knowledge in cats, thats is no secret.... But we are starting to trip over them, and the bulk of hunters want deer and elk and not to feed them to strong population of cats!
You should take sometime and follow a few cougar tracks. They will lead you to your mule deer you can't find live:mrgreen:

[Husky7mm]

Haha, I burn up lots of time doing that, even trying to track a few down.

[Husky7mm]

Cat populations are not high, some MUs may have a health population but many dont they are actually down in numbers.
Its basically a lack of knowledge on the cats and you can see that in most posts by husky7mm and bugler.
The president of the kitty lovers club has spoke. Thannks for your thoughts....

[bugler]

LBM, I don't know how long you have been around but from my experience finding a track to run in the 80's usually took several days of looking with fresh snow. At that time there were only a handful of guys that I knew of who had dogs. Since those days more and more people have gotten their own dogs and are out pounding the roads, and when I've gone with good snow conditions we usually have our pick of several tracks on any given day. I'm not always there as they aren't my dogs, but the other guys consistently experience the same thing. In all the years in between I had not had a random sighting without dogs until about 2000. Since then sightings have become pretty common, up to several in some years lately. You can't tell me that the population is not way up from the 90's. (Well, you could, but I won't believe it.

The 3 were all pretty much the same size so I figured mom with 2 nearly grown young. If they got close enough and if I could tell I would have chosen the mom, thus hopefully limiting the other two's chances of survival without her.

[houndogger]

LBM, I don't know how long you have been around but from my experience finding a track to run in the 80's usually took several days of looking with fresh snow. At that time there were only a handful of guys that I knew of who had dogs. Since those days more and more people have gotten their own dogs and are out pounding the roads, and when I've gone with good snow conditions we usually have our pick of several tracks on any given day. I'm not always there as they aren't my dogs, but the other guys consistently experience the same thing. In all the years in between I had not had a random sighting without dogs until about 2000. Since then sightings have become pretty common, up to several in some years lately. You can't tell me that the population is not way up from the 90's. (Well, you could, but I won't believe it.

The 3 were all pretty much the same size so I figured mom with 2 nearly grown young. If they got close enough and if I could tell I would have chosen the mom, thus hopefully limiting the other two's chances of survival without her.
Or heading into town to dine on pets... Good plan

[reach]

The 3 were all pretty much the same size so I figured mom with 2 nearly grown young. If they got close enough and if I could tell I would have chosen the mom, thus hopefully limiting the other two's chances of survival without her.
You probably already know this but it's illegal to hunt a cougar kitten or any cougar in the company of a cougar kitten. Cougar kitten is defined as any cougar with spots or less than one year old. Not sure how you judge the age in the field.

[bugler]

You probably already know this but it's illegal to hunt a cougar kitten or any cougar in the company of a cougar kitten. Cougar kitten is defined as any cougar with spots or less than one year old. Not sure how you judge the age in the field.

Yup, know that. No spots on these, like I said all adult looking cats. Regardless though, who but me would know any different anyway.

And if the younguns end up in town to dine on pets they are doomed, so ya, good plan.

[roymil]

Hey G, you're getting some of these guys stirred up.....................yuk yuk

[Mr. Dean]

Yup, know that. No spots on these, like I said all adult looking cats. Regardless though, who but me would know any different anyway.

And if the younguns end up in town to dine on pets they are doomed, so ya, good plan.


I'm typing this out so hopefully I remember.
When visiting the koots area, steer clear of Bugler as he believes he's above the law.

[bugler]

Ha ha Dean, don't worry. I don't think I'm above the law and I don't poach. The "who would know" comment was with tongue partly in cheek.

An afterthought to the cats in town comment...around here they show up in town to eat deer, not so much pets. The deer take care of the pets!!!

[rocksteady]

I'm typing this out so hopefully I remember.
When visiting the koots area, steer clear of Bugler as he believes he's above the law.


I have no idea who bugler is Mr. Dean but how is his comment any better or worse than the SSS advuce that gets posted on here quite a bit... Just sayin...

[J_T]

I'm typing this out so hopefully I remember.
When visiting the koots area, steer clear of Bugler as he believes he's above the law.
Yeah you want to steer clear of him alright. You wouldn't want to be associated with the most successful bowhunter in the area. You might get labelled as a tag along, someone who's trying to learn from another hunter. Or something worse, being associated with someone who adheres to a law higher than the law itself. Give your head a shake.

[LBM]

Yeah you want to steer clear of him alright. You wouldn't want to be associated with the most successful bowhunter in the area. You might get labelled as a tag along, someone who's trying to learn from another hunter. Or something worse, being associated with someone who adheres to a law higher than the law itself. Give your head a shake.

Bugler is the one that posted the stuff about his ethics and what he would do.

[LBM]

Somebody asked about numbers the season is not over yet but here is a few up to about a week ago.
The quota is 20 females and that was reached quit some time before they finally closed it.
So far there at 43 females
21 resident shot
8 non resident shot
14 other(unfortunately these are no longer included in quota)

[chilcotin hillbilly]

LBM, those are staggering numbers!! I guess the theory of guides killing all the females goes out the window.

[Ambush]

Somebody asked about numbers the season is not over yet but here is a few up to about a week ago.
The quota is 20 females and that was reached quit some time before they finally closed it.
So far there at 43 females
21 resident shot
8 non resident shot
14 other(unfortunately these are no longer included in quota)

Can you please post the numbers for toms killed by residents and non-residents.

[The Dude]

And LBM: Where did you get those numbers? Are they online , or you have an inside source?

[LBM]

Can you please post the numbers for toms killed by residents and non-residents.

65 males
38 resident
23 non-resident
4 other
These numbers are not finally for some zones are still open till end of feb
they also do not include the WK or the caribou issue zones.

[LBM]

LBM, those are staggering numbers!! I guess the theory of guides killing all the females goes out the window.
Yes it does for the most part but if you broke it down to each MU you can see that some outfitters were worse.
Also in discussion with some different COs the reason for the change in the regs about running females with kittens
was put in place because of a few certain outfitters but when you read buglers attitude towards cats and the hunting of them
you can see some residents are just as bad if not worse.

[Mr. Dean]

Ha ha Dean, don't worry. I don't think I'm above the law and I don't poach.

Well,,,,,,,,



The 3 were all pretty much the same size so I figured mom with 2 nearly grown young. If they got close enough and if I could tell I would have chosen the mom, thus hopefully limiting the other two's chances of survival without her.


The above is 100% illegal.
I'm just saying it as it's told...

[Mr. Dean]

Yeah you want to steer clear of him alright. You wouldn't want to be associated with the most successful bowhunter in the area. You might get labelled as a tag along, someone who's trying to learn from another hunter. Or something worse, being associated with someone who adheres to a law higher than the law itself. Give your head a shake.

Has the rugulation not been changed to include a "cat in company" clause???

[Mr. Dean]

I'm googling up the regs and can't edit my post,,,,,,, I *may* be confused with lynx's... If so, I withdraw all comments

[J_T]

Has the rugulation not been changed to include a "cat in company" clause??? We've got pics this past season of three cats in the same image. We determined likely a big Tom, a female and another but not so immature (all adults). If I was in my stand, I'd take the first one that gave me a shot and tag it. I think the regs say you can't hunt a kitten.

[Mr. Dean]

I'm googling up the regs and can't edit my post,,,,,,, I *may* be confused with lynx's... If so, I withdraw all comments


My bad. :sad:
It is lynx.

The synopsis does, though, discourage us from hunting she-cats.
So I'll just write off my planned hunt in the Koot's next year and leave the area for the home-boys.

[J_T]

My bad. :sad:
It is lynx.

The synopsis does, though, discourage us from hunting she-cats.
So I'll just write off my planned hunt in the Koot's next year and leave the area for the home-boys. Whatever. Thanks. It isn't about competition, as a bowhunter it's about opportunity. We see many of the cat hunters out and about and they check with us about what we're seeing too. Everyone works together. It works great. But I'm not sure most guys online or from outside the area, actually get how many cat hunters there are out here. Respect and cooperation is important. Who cares if together over time, they've come up with some protocols amongst themselves. It works.

[Ambush]

Thanks for the numbers LBM.

Is there a target number of females that the Bio's want taken annually? Or is this number simply set at what they think the population can withstand without undo depletion?

[bugler]

I believe the number is set based on what the "official" population can withstand. If I recall correctly, it has been about the same number for 20 or more years. The quota may have been appropriate 20 years ago but I believe the population is much higher now, therefore the quota woefully low. I think the managers here know this but don't really have the "science" to prove it to Victoria, therefore they have to kinda stick to the established quota. I think they've been able to stretch it a little by not counting kills that aren't by hunters.

For those who are concerned that I would shoot a female that might have nearly adult kittens still dependent on her, how would you react if I was talking the same scenario with a wolf? To me there are way too many of both here and they both need some serious reduction. It just so happens that cats are one species that we have some chance of controlling through recreational hunting.

[aggiehunter]

"overly conservative elk and whitetail seasons"...thats a stretch.....

[aggiehunter]

ps...dont ever forget wolfies little bother Senklip...he's doing some damage this winter also....

[Jelvis]

SK'ELEP .. Coyote in Shuswap linguisitics aggie lol. Good one.
Jel ..

[LBM]

[QUOTE=bugler;1288398]I believe the number is set based on what the "official" population can withstand. If I recall correctly, it has been about the same number for 20 or more years. The quota may have been appropriate 20 years ago but I believe the population is much higher now, therefore the quota woefully low. I think the managers here know this but don't really have the "science" to prove it to Victoria, therefore they have to kinda stick to the established quota. I think they've been able to stretch it a little by not counting kills that aren't by hunters.

For those who are concerned that I would shoot a female that might have nearly adult kittens still dependent on her, how would you react if I was talking the same scenario with a wolf? To me there are way too many of both here and they both need some serious reduction. It just so happens that cats are one species that we have some chance of controlling through recreational hunting.[/QUOTE

Again your lack of knowledge on cats shows, but you are intitled to your opinion and ethics.


Ambush
The quotas for region 4 are in the regs as well as the laws for hunting a cougar kitten or any in its company.
Right now the region is broken into 3 sections with there own quotas of female cats.
Personally would like to see a quota on males as well and have it broken down to smaller sections as well for as
allready mentioned maybe some MUS have a healthy population of cats but many dont and are low, also a dead cat
is a dead cat so all should go against the quota like it use to.
Im not sure where they come up with there quotas etc. when discussing things with the senior wildlife biologist
he basically said they have no idea how many cats there are for there has never really been any studys done.
There is currently one going on in the caribou area which is basically to see if there feeding on the caribou and
they did a track survey a few years ago north of golden. Also in discussion with him about why they left the season
open after the quota was met, he basically said he was pro outfitter and felt sorry for them, they had allready cut
there grizzly quota so didnt want to take away cats from them also. Basically who crys the most gets there way
and the outfitters and ungulate hunters cry more I guess.

[The Hermit]

I did not hunt cats this year, for several reasons, but I did talk to my buddy about the season prior and it is appearing to turn into a childish bickerfest between the guides and locals..

Guides are allegedly jumping tracks that locals have marked (seen that) and are harvesting a large number of females (clients pay the same if its a tom or a tit.) Once the quota is reached, the season is shut down and the locals can't harvest and the guides surely don't sell many pursuit only hunts...So locals feel guides are impacting "their" season, but still gaining financially...

So, in return, the locals have decided to kill as many cats period as they can, under the premise of protecting the other wildlife, but really what they are trying to do is impact the guides. The guide who has 3 or 4 clients booked for cat hunting during the prime season, suddenly gets notified that the season is closed and now he has to call his clients and cancel (there goes $5 to 10K out of the guides pocket for each hunt)...Some locals have said they will try to kill as many females as possible for the next few years (to close the season) in an attempt to make the guides go bankrupt, or just make it so hard on them (guides) to book cat hunts that are successful, that they will impact the guides income to the point that they no longer will offer cat hunts....

Bingo. Another example of hunters not working together at the expense of sound wildlife management, hunting in general, and the ol us and them!

[GoatGuy]

Somebody asked about numbers the season is not over yet but here is a few up to about a week ago.
The quota is 20 females and that was reached quit some time before they finally closed it.
So far there at 43 females
21 resident shot
8 non resident shot
14 other(unfortunately these are no longer included in quota)

14 other: what does that mean????

[The Dude]

Must be road kill, train kill, and problem cat removal.

[MadCat]

LBM where are you from? Your blabbing about cat numbers being low is starting to get to me. The cat numbers around the south east kootenays is at a high. Should you be able to go out and tree 5 different cats in one day on separate runs? Should you be able to do this multiple times throughout the season? If you answer yes to this you aren’t even worth wasting time on. Dont want to see the cougars wiped out but do I think that theres too many of them, YES. If a bunch of cats are killed, male or female, and it saves some mule deer and sheep I say all the power to the one pulling the trigger, but maybe I'm just imagining that the mule deer numbers are down too.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Cougars, like any other species, need to be managed. If the numbers are too high in an area how can we reduce the population? Can't do it by just shooting toms. That much I know.

SSS

[GoatGuy]

Must be road kill, train kill, and problem cat removal.

Numbers are out to lunch compared to what I have.

[bugler]

For those who are concerned that I would shoot a female that might have nearly adult kittens still dependent on her, how would you react if I was talking the same scenario with a wolf?


Again your lack of knowledge on cats shows, but you are intitled to your opinion and ethics.
Basically who crys the most gets there way and the outfitters and ungulate hunters cry more I guess.

C'mon LB, what's the response. Kill all the wolves you can but don't kill cats? I said I believe cat pops are way high and why. You say they are low but seem to have no reason to believe this. I have to assume they just aren't high enough for you. You would definitely be in the minority around here, but you are also entitled to your opinions.

[MadCat]

If he says that population is low then he's just started cat hunting in the last few years or isn't from the east koots. Any body that's been doing it for a while would be lying if they said that cat population is the highest it's been in a long time. We have to get over the long lasting idea that we can't kill females. That idea is fine when we have a low or stable population, but when the numbers are too high we need to take both male and females. I know it's nice to be able to run a few cats a day with out having to look very hard but it's starting to take a toll on our ungulates, along with the wolves and other issues.

[bugler]

With you MadCat, but I think you missed the word "not" between "population is" and "the highest". Least I think that's what you meant!

[rocksteady]

Might get blasted for this one but here goes.....

I think more people have got into cat hunting, as the technology has made it easier.

In the old days, you cut a track, kicked out the dogs and you were off behind, no idea where you were gonna end up.

Then telemetry collars came along, send one guy following, other drove roads listening for beeps to try to drive closer.

Skip to now, kick out the dogs, GPS collar sends signal to your handheld, which plots it all on a map, showing you which is the nearest road access, bearing, distance, if the dogs have it treed or are still running....

I think this technology has changed it from a hardcore sport to one for even the laziest of Hunters to get into....

Just sayin... Flame away

[MadCat]

Yep bud were on the same page. Hard to proof read on a phone.

[MadCat]

[QUOTE=rocksteady;1288807]Might get blasted for this one but here goes.....

I think more people have got into cat hunting, as the technology has made it easier.

In the old days, you cut a track, kicked out the dogs and you were off behind, no idea where you were gonna end up.

Then telemetry collars came along, send one guy following, other drove roads listening for beeps to try to drive closer.

Skip to now, kick out the dogs, GPS collar sends signal to your handheld, which plots it all on a map, showing you which is the nearest road access, bearing, distance, if the dogs have it treed or are still running....

I think this technology has changed it from a hardcore sport to one for even the laziest of Hunters to get into....

Just sayin... Flame away[/QUOTE

No doubt about it, it's way easier to keep track of your dogs now with the garmin collars. I don't see what this has to do with the need to take some cats out of the population. I can tell you even with the new technology and all the new cat hunters, the cat numbers have exploded in the last few years. Don't believe me, ask anyone that's be in it for 10 plus years and see how easy it is to find a track now from back then.

[aggiehunter]

Jelly, Sylix spelling....

[The Dude]

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj313/Heliox18/Hunting/CougarRegion42013.jpg


Get the RSS feed, and when the quota is reached, you get emailed.
Also available on the sidebar iin the new Wolftracker.ca ;-)

[hunter1947]

Might get blasted for this one but here goes.....

I think more people have got into cat hunting, as the technology has made it easier.

In the old days, you cut a track, kicked out the dogs and you were off behind, no idea where you were gonna end up.

Then telemetry collars came along, send one guy following, other drove roads listening for beeps to try to drive closer.

Skip to now, kick out the dogs, GPS collar sends signal to your handheld, which plots it all on a map, showing you which is the nearest road access, bearing, distance, if the dogs have it treed or are still running....

I think this technology has changed it from a hardcore sport to one for even the laziest of Hunters to get into....

Just sayin... Flame away


I agree with you Mike as for many other new technology devices for all categories of hunting..

[BlacktailStalker]

Might get blasted for this one but here goes.....

I think more people have got into cat hunting, as the technology has made it easier.

In the old days, you cut a track, kicked out the dogs and you were off behind, no idea where you were gonna end up.

Then telemetry collars came along, send one guy following, other drove roads listening for beeps to try to drive closer.

Skip to now, kick out the dogs, GPS collar sends signal to your handheld, which plots it all on a map, showing you which is the nearest road access, bearing, distance, if the dogs have it treed or are still running....

I think this technology has changed it from a hardcore sport to one for even the laziest of Hunters to get into....

Just sayin... Flame away

You don't know what you're talking about. You made that clear on your first post but then said you 'looked it up'
Did you look this one up too?
Come chase a cat on the island, it's not all a cake walk like the EK and central interior.
FYI technology advances mean more dogs come home... Alive and possibly us too because I can't count how many times I've had to cross a half frozen river, be soaked to the balls to get my dogs at a tree and find the quickest way out.
Three times in the last two years my dogs would have been dead if it weren't for GPS. Oh well? Is that just part of the game ?
A FEW more people have gotten into hounds sure, because of technology though? Doubt it. All technology does is aid the houndsman that already knows what he's doing. Doesn't train dogs and make shitty dogs better, doesn't find the cats, doesn't help you physically hike more kms than most into areas nobody would ever go for no reason and hopefully allows you to get to your dogs before a pack of wolves pulls their ass through their throats.
FYI the GPS system is actually garbage past 1.5km at best.
Anyone who hunts in real big cat country still uses telemetry as a back up on the dogs at ALL times and if you know anything about telemetry you'll know it is an art to be able to use it properly in country that is anything but flat.
The BEST thing about GPS is it allows you to see what dog is doing what instead of wondering what goes on when you let go.

Technology advances are far advanced in every other method and type of hunting and you (and everyone) takes advantage of that on a continual basis. There is no difference.

[rocksteady]

You don't know what you're talking about. You made that clear on your first post but then said you 'looked it up'
Did you look this one up too?
.

I have never hunted cats on the island. I have done it for a few years in teh EK and these are the observations I have made, about the group of guys that I ran with...Your opinion is just that, yours. According to you I don't know what I am talking about... Whatever..

My original post about looking something up was when I first started cat hunting and was trying to gain knowledge. I searched numerous different (mainly goverment f/w type documents) on how to identify males versus females. The ifo about the 40" stride was fron Utah fish and game, I believe..

A good way to try and learn stuff, as you can see from the other thread about people asking questions/advice from experienced cat Hunters tends to get pretty ignorant answers and comments...

[hunter1947]

Lets face it technology has came a long ways from when I was a young hunter ,,, lots of new stuff they got on the shelfs from when I started to hunt way back 52 years ago cat hunting now a days as far as I am concerned is way easer then 50 years ago when they the cat hunters did not have the equipment they have now a days......

[Rodd]

I agree with both guys, Cougar hunting has evolved, but their is nothing easy about getting to a tree, up the mountian before the Cat jumps and leaves. I seen it both ways as the technology evolved, and as BTS said its way safer for the dogs themselves to be able to get them back asap... I always told people that you'd better be happy with the track you release the dogs on, cuz back in the day when i chased hounds, sometimes you wouldn't see your dogs again for a week or more, although more commonly 2-3days.. And during the time your trying to retrieve them you cut a better, fressher track, and you have no dogs to release...

I know a friend who uses new technology with his dogs, and its amazing what he knows about each of his dogs!! He also uses a helmet cam on his hounds, to see what actually goes on with the dynamics of his pack at the tree.. Found out a dog was picking on another at the tree, and would only let his kennel mates on the tree, and this dog lived at another home. So the more you can learn the better, but I've haven't seen too many "easy" cats get killed ever myself. IMHO

[houndsman]

The problem in the koots is everyone wants to kill the toms. Toms kill kittens & when there is no toms left the cat numbers go through the roof. The only way to manage the cat population is to kill some shes.Where I hunt there is an even balance & I dont see to menny kitten tracks. Ihave pounded alot of country this winter & only cut 2 shes with kittens. When I started chasing hounds 35 years ago on the island there was no tracking equipment & most of the time no snow .You had to stay within hearing of your dogs & that is not easy!The tracking equipment has made things a little easer,but this is still the tuffest hunting there is.

[LBM]

For those who are concerned that I would shoot a female that might have nearly adult kittens still dependent on her, how would you react if I was talking the same scenario with a wolf?


C'mon LB, what's the response. Kill all the wolves you can but don't kill cats? I said I believe cat pops are way high and why. You say they are low but seem to have no reason to believe this. I have to assume they just aren't high enough for you. You would definitely be in the minority around here, but you are also entitled to your opinions.
Who said kill all the wolves they can I didnt but sure those are your thoughts.
Dont know how else to say it for you and madcat but will again, some MUs may have health populations but many dont.
Although its not important but been following cats for around 30 yrs and 20 with my own dogs and in the EK.
Have had a couple days were have had 2 runs in a day but never 5 and it would not be possible were Ive been unless running in the dark.
15 years ago could find tracks from 5 different cats in a day if you covered lots of ground but not no more.
Have spent the last 10 days in arow out looking for cats first day found 2 old tracks from different cats on the 4th day one of them
crossed through again as well as 2 wolves on the 3rd day the rest of the days nothing, so 2 diferent cats in 10 days of looking.
This is in country were 15 years ago you could find a different track every day or 2. To be fair there was acouple other cats in the area at the
start of the season but they didnt last long. At the end of last season there was high hopes for a few cats for this year as well for there was 2 females with
kittens but one of them was trapped at the end of last season and her kittens starved to death unless the coyotes got them, the others were killed(poached) late summer by
a local rancher.I also dont get up at 2 in the morning and run around with a possee of ahalf dozen other pickups covering the whole country looking for tracks.
On a side note if you guys are concerned about your deer IMO the biggest predator on them is coyotes first and humans 2nd, I know of 6 deer shot in the last couple months
3 of them the looks like the shooters didnt even get outa there trucks just shot and drove away, but as I have mentioned before there isnt much concern of poaching its
easier to blame the declines on something else.

[LBM]

The problem in the koots is everyone wants to kill the toms. Toms kill kittens & when there is no toms left the cat numbers go through the roof. The only way to manage the cat population is to kill some shes.Where I hunt there is an even balance & I dont see to menny kitten tracks. Ihave pounded alot of country this winter & only cut 2 shes with kittens. When I started chasing hounds 35 years ago on the island there was no tracking equipment & most of the time no snow .You had to stay within hearing of your dogs & that is not easy!The tracking equipment has made things a little easer,but this is still the tuffest hunting there is.
The numbers sure dont show that only toms are killed. How many females do you shoot a year to balance things out.
I do agree on the toms killing the kittens though but the toms have to have a chance to mature though.

[LBM]

You don't know what you're talking about. You made that clear on your first post but then said you 'looked it up'
Did you look this one up too?
Come chase a cat on the island, it's not all a cake walk like the EK and central interior.
FYI technology advances mean more dogs come home... Alive and possibly us too because I can't count how many times I've had to cross a half frozen river, be soaked to the balls to get my dogs at a tree and find the quickest way out.
Three times in the last two years my dogs would have been dead if it weren't for GPS. Oh well? Is that just part of the game ?
A FEW more people have gotten into hounds sure, because of technology though? Doubt it. All technology does is aid the houndsman that already knows what he's doing. Doesn't train dogs and make shitty dogs better, doesn't find the cats, doesn't help you physically hike more kms than most into areas nobody would ever go for no reason and hopefully allows you to get to your dogs before a pack of wolves pulls their ass through their throats.
FYI the GPS system is actually garbage past 1.5km at best.
Anyone who hunts in real big cat country still uses telemetry as a back up on the dogs at ALL times and if you know anything about telemetry you'll know it is an art to be able to use it properly in country that is anything but flat.
The BEST thing about GPS is it allows you to see what dog is doing what instead of wondering what goes on when you let go.

Technology advances are far advanced in every other method and type of hunting and you (and everyone) takes advantage of that on a continual basis. There is no difference.

What makes you think the EK is a cake walk?
I agree with most of what you say about collars, bringing dogs home safe is the most important to me, but if you want to really
know what is going on out there then follow the dogs from the start.

[WKCotts]

Head over to the wk next year. Lots of cats here and very little pressure. I'll send you in the right direction. We could use the help



Who said kill all the wolves they can I didnt but sure those are your thoughts.
Dont know how else to say it for you and madcat but will again, some MUs may have health populations but many dont.
Although its not important but been following cats for around 30 yrs and 20 with my own dogs and in the EK.
Have had a couple days were have had 2 runs in a day but never 5 and it would not be possible were Ive been unless running in the dark.
15 years ago could find tracks from 5 different cats in a day if you covered lots of ground but not no more.
Have spent the last 10 days in arow out looking for cats first day found 2 old tracks from different cats on the 4th day one of them
crossed through again as well as 2 wolves on the 3rd day the rest of the days nothing, so 2 diferent cats in 10 days of looking.
This is in country were 15 years ago you could find a different track every day or 2. To be fair there was acouple other cats in the area at the
start of the season but they didnt last long. At the end of last season there was high hopes for a few cats for this year as well for there was 2 females with
kittens but one of them was trapped at the end of last season and her kittens starved to death unless the coyotes got them, the others were killed(poached) late summer by
a local rancher.I also dont get up at 2 in the morning and run around with a possee of ahalf dozen other pickups covering the whole country looking for tracks.
On a side note if you guys are concerned about your deer IMO the biggest predator on them is coyotes first and humans 2nd, I know of 6 deer shot in the last couple months
3 of them the looks like the shooters didnt even get outa there trucks just shot and drove away, but as I have mentioned before there isnt much concern of poaching its
easier to blame the declines on something else.

[budismyhorse]

Wow you guys bickering between colleagues makes sheep threads look tame.

nothing like cross-province insults regarding the "difficulty" of terrain.... What's next? Pulling out the rulers and dropping your drawers?

[BlacktailStalker]

What makes you think the EK is a cake walk?I agree with most of what you say about collars, bringing dogs home safe is the most important to me, but if you want to reallyknow what is going on out there then follow the dogs from the start.You're looking for minute details in a bigger picture no it's not all a cake walk but much of the terrain is easy/great to run in compared to many places, how on earth is that an argument :roll: wasnt meant to be an insult, ive hunted all over the EK for all sorts of stuff so its an observation and first hand opinion.
If it helps, Alberta is by far the best place to run Ive been and I've been to the nastier stuff on the west side as well.
Following the dogs doesn't tell you who picks up the most losses, who is up front on the jumps, who is the first to locate tree on the stub tails, who moves a shitty track best/fastest and who your weakest link is and many, many other not so obvious details that matter to the guys who like making good dogs or wants to know what they do or don't have in their kennel. It's all technical stuff that adds to the enjoyment of it all and you can't progress if you don't know where you stand so all this stuff matters. To me.

If you get to watch all that on foot it would be with dogs that are slower than two drunks in a three legged potato sack race. You can carry on with this but youre barking at an empty tree now cuz I didn't think there was anything to debate over in the first place.

[bugler]

Who said kill all the wolves they can I didnt but sure those are your thoughts.
Dont know how else to say it for you and madcat but will again, some MUs may have health populations but many dont.
Although its not important but been following cats for around 30 yrs and 20 with my own dogs and in the EK.
Have had a couple days were have had 2 runs in a day but never 5 and it would not be possible were Ive been unless running in the dark.
15 years ago could find tracks from 5 different cats in a day if you covered lots of ground but not no more.
Have spent the last 10 days in arow out looking for cats first day found 2 old tracks from different cats on the 4th day one of them
crossed through again as well as 2 wolves on the 3rd day the rest of the days nothing, so 2 diferent cats in 10 days of looking.
This is in country were 15 years ago you could find a different track every day or 2. To be fair there was acouple other cats in the area at the
start of the season but they didnt last long. At the end of last season there was high hopes for a few cats for this year as well for there was 2 females with
kittens but one of them was trapped at the end of last season and her kittens starved to death unless the coyotes got them, the others were killed(poached) late summer by
a local rancher.I also dont get up at 2 in the morning and run around with a possee of ahalf dozen other pickups covering the whole country looking for tracks.
On a side note if you guys are concerned about your deer IMO the biggest predator on them is coyotes first and humans 2nd, I know of 6 deer shot in the last couple months
3 of them the looks like the shooters didnt even get outa there trucks just shot and drove away, but as I have mentioned before there isnt much concern of poaching its
easier to blame the declines on something else.

I think it is fair to say that your experiences are much different than the majority. Everyone I know certainly sees it the other way. That doesn't make you wrong, just different!

[LBM]

You're looking for minute details in a bigger picture no it's not all a cake walk but much of the terrain is easy/great to run in compared to many places, how on earth is that an argument :roll: wasnt meant to be an insult, ive hunted all over the EK for all sorts of stuff so its an observation and first hand opinion.
If it helps, Alberta is by far the best place to run Ive been and I've been to the nastier stuff on the west side as well.
Following the dogs doesn't tell you who picks up the most losses, who is up front on the jumps, who is the first to locate tree on the stub tails, who moves a shitty track best/fastest and who your weakest link is and many, many other not so obvious details that matter to the guys who like making good dogs or wants to know what they do or don't have in their kennel. It's all technical stuff that adds to the enjoyment of it all and you can't progress if you don't know where you stand so all this stuff matters. To me.

If you get to watch all that on foot it would be with dogs that are slower than two drunks in a three legged potato sack race. You can carry on with this but youre barking at an empty tree now cuz I didn't think there was anything to debate over in the first place.
Take a deep breath BTS nobodys arguing here just asking a question.
Like you posted you are interested into what your dogs are doing as many are.
The majority of what you have mentioned can also be done by following the dogs
to quote what you said earlier "the story is always in the snow"
It doesnt take to much to learn the traits of each dog but every time there out
they can learn more.
For me I do it to also learn about cougars and cougar behaviour, habitat etc and you wont see that
on the garmin screen, of course its a whole different game if your running on dry ground.

[Husky7mm]

Somebody asked about numbers the season is not over yet but here is a few up to about a week ago.
The quota is 20 females and that was reached quit some time before they finally closed it.
So far there at 43 females
21 resident shot
8 non resident shot
14 other(unfortunately these are no longer included in quota)

Thats about 2500 more deer for next year.....Good start anyways

[Husky7mm]

65 males
38 resident
23 non-resident
4 other
These numbers are not finally for some zones are still open till end of feb
they also do not include the WK or the caribou issue zones.

And another 4000 deer here, husky likes that!

[Husky7mm]

LBM Should they micro manage each unit to ensure a healthy cat population for the entire region? Thats hilarious! You should be happy with the ones that are healthy, and go there...... just saying! Perhaps go with a few rookies, they must be good luck!

[BlacktailStalker]

Take a deep breath BTS nobodys arguing here just asking a question.
Like you posted you are interested into what your dogs are doing as many are.
The majority of what you have mentioned can also be done by following the dogs
to quote what you said earlier "the story is always in the snow"
It doesnt take to much to learn the traits of each dog but every time there out
they can learn more.
For me I do it to also learn about cougars and cougar behaviour, habitat etc and you wont see that
on the garmin screen, of course its a whole different game if your running on dry ground.

I don't see how the majority can be done following on foot.
I can't identify my dogs footprints individually or who was where in what order in snow and you're right definitely not on dry ground, you see nothing, if anything the garmin will tell you what ridges they are running and where they cross before you can get there. Once any race builds any kind of momentum, you, I or anyone else can not keep up on foot, it is absolutely impossible. The odd bed, scratch or kill, the exact route the cat took sure but really, it is easy to tell if they are hunting, hanging out or on a mission from anywhere. The only thing I can be involved in is hiking in the early spring when they try to start something that is slow enough to be there. Even then 3+ dogs move any track runable at what is almost a jogging pace and over here at least, its hard enough to walk through most of the crap they're in at that time of the year.
From above or below, I can tell when they open on a scratch, get stuck, frustrated then get going again and 75% of the time know when they've hung up on a kill for a short while, all while not being there. Half the places they go I can barely make it, safely let alone with them at their speed.
When time permits I can later walk in to those spots to see, what the excitement was about (scratch, bed, kill, kitten stash, whatever) make a mental note and carry on. How?
The loss or slight hang up shows on the screen where they fan out and then line out again and the spot is easy to visit later on or the ledge is easily identifiable.
I run cats because they are the most fascinating and secretive animal in the province in my opinion and gives me a reason to be in the bush when nobody else is, I share your opinion there.

[aggiehunter]

Blacktail...I certainly appreciate your love of the pursuit of our big cat...I used to view them also with the greatest regard and still do.. however...I see more now and have had more encounters in the last 3 years with coug's than I did for the last 40 years. What I think is most interesting is that they have somehow become aquainted with us and our habits...

[BlacktailStalker]

You're probably right, they're changing their habits it seems. Lots of incidental cats getting shot here as well by hunters, used to be rare to hear of one, I hear of around 2-4 every fall just here.

[eastkoothunter]

Interesting thread to read, but I think you covered all the aspects BlacktailStalker. Being a hound hunter in the EK's, most of those guys are their own worst enemy. One day they want to shoot every cat, the next they don't. Its a shame that every cat is getting shot; makes it tough to go home over the holidays and let the dogs run and get some pictures. I think the wolves are doing much more damage then the cats, and I think a lot of people would agree.

[mtnmanmike]

Interesting thread to read, but I think you covered all the aspects BlacktailStalker. Being a hound hunter in the EK's, most of those guys are their own worst enemy. One day they want to shoot every cat, the next they don't. Its a shame that every cat is getting shot; makes it tough to go home over the holidays and let the dogs run and get some pictures. I think the wolves are doing much more damage then the cats, and I think a lot of people would agree.
Well said Eastkoot, couldn't agree with you more on all your points

[hunter1947]

I talked to a cougar hunter today when I was shed hunting he let his hounds out to pursue a cat I asked him is not cougar season closed he said yes it is but I am still allowed to let the dogs go to pursuit cougars till the end of this month just can't shot them is this true ???.

[Husky7mm]

Yes, and dont forget some units are still open too.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Yes. From the regs...

COUGAR 4-1 to 4-9, 4-14 to 4-40 ★Sept 10 - Feb 28 1Pursuit Only* 4-1 to 4-9, 4-14 to 4-40 Dec 1 - Feb 28 0
Hunters may not hunt a cougar kitten or any cougar in its company. See Definitions section: cougar kitten.* Persons participating in the Pursuit Only season are reminded that they must have a hunting licence, they may not carry a firearm, and it is an offence to kill a cougar during a Pursuit Only season.

Note....the kill season overlaps with the pursuit season. Kill season is closed but the pursuit goes on.

[hunter1947]

Yes. From the regs...

COUGAR 4-1 to 4-9, 4-14 to 4-40

★Sept 10 - Feb 28 1Pursuit Only* 4-1 to 4-9, 4-14 to 4-40 Dec 1 - Feb 28 0

Hunters may not hunt a cougar kitten or any cougar in its company. See Definitions section: cougar kitten.
* Persons participating in the Pursuit Only season are reminded that they must have a hunting licence, they may not carry a firearm, and it is an offence to kill a cougar during a Pursuit Only season.

Note....the kill season overlaps with the pursuit season. Kill season is closed but the pursuit goes on.

SSS thanks for filling us members in on your post

[LBM]

Yes. From the regs...

COUGAR 4-1 to 4-9, 4-14 to 4-40

★Sept 10 - Feb 28 1Pursuit Only* 4-1 to 4-9, 4-14 to 4-40 Dec 1 - Feb 28 0

Hunters may not hunt a cougar kitten or any cougar in its company. See Definitions section: cougar kitten.
* Persons participating in the Pursuit Only season are reminded that they must have a hunting licence, they may not carry a firearm, and it is an offence to kill a cougar during a Pursuit Only season.

Note....the kill season overlaps with the pursuit season. Kill season is closed but the pursuit goes on.

Hunter 1947 also note that they may not carry a firearm during pursuit season.

[hunter1947]

Hunter 1947 also note that they may not carry a firearm during pursuit season.

Thanks LBM good thing to know as I am no cougar hunter as for other members on here we will remember these posts something to keep in mind for the future...