BC Sheep permit goes for $275 000 at Wild Sheep Foundation Show

[Wild Images]

http://bid.wildsheepfoundation.org/BRITISH-COLUMBIA-SPECIAL-MOUNTAIN-SHEEP-PERMIT_i15298575

More Money for the sheep :-D

Alberta sheep tag went for $150 000

[knightcc]

Very good news. I don't mind these auctions at all. More dollars where they are needed.

[The Silent Stalker]

Wow, that's a good chunk of change.

[Rackmastr]

Great to see.....over 2 million dollars in conservations spent last night!

[goinghunting]

Do we see exactly were this money is spent?

[bearvalley]

Probably will just go for drinks at the GOABC convention in Kelowna. Hats of to the BC goverment for making the tag available and to FNAWS for
marketing it.

[Tuffcity]

Do we see exactly were this money is spent?

You can start here: http://www.hctf.ca/News/HTCF_Special_Permits_Report.pdf

RC

[WKCotts]

Good to see.

[358mag]

Good on those that have deep pockets to spend the $$$ for the better of the resource. Sure hope this reply makes it not like a few that just seam to have gone MIA

[bearvalley]

Good on those that have deep pockets to spend the $$$ for the better of the resource. Sure hope this reply makes it not like a few that just seam to have gone MIA

358mag, You noticed the selective editing as well. Seems like if some don't want to hear, it evaporates. Sent a PM to a mod. Curious as
to explantion.

[Gateholio]

Nothing selective about it at all. I deleted the posts that were disruptive to the topic. If you guys want to have a discussion about outfitters v residents or whatever, use the NEW THREAD button and have at 'er.

[358mag]

Nothing selective about it at all. I deleted the posts that were disruptive to the topic. If you guys want to have a discussion about outfitters v residents or whatever, use the NEW THREAD button and have at 'er.
What ever he who has the Edit button makes the rules:confused: lots of other threads drift of topic but don't see the same BS :twisted:

[bearvalley]

Nothing selective about it at all. I deleted the posts that were disruptive to the topic. If you guys want to have a discussion about outfitters v residents or whatever, use the NEW THREAD button and have at 'er.

Gatehouse;
I fail to see why comparing the difference in the amount of money generated by a sheep tag put up by the BC goverment and fully endorsed
by most of the sheep hunting faternity ( residents, outfitters, bueracrats...whatever)...differs from the amount generated by resident sheep tags.
Fail to see the derail when the bonus $$$$ are pointed out and why. Also dont see the derailment on the question as to last years buyer being a
resident. What did that $240,000 do. Maybe if that buyer had been left alone the 2013 permit would have sold right alongside the Montana Governors
Tag. Did anyone think of the publicity that sheep might have got instead of the sour taste it put out. Ohhhh but the power of the finger.delete

[Gateholio]

Gatehouse;
I fail to see why comparing the difference in the amount of money generated by a sheep tag put up by the BC goverment and fully endorsed
by most of the sheep hunting faternity ( residents, outfitters, bueracrats...whatever)...differs from the amount generated by resident sheep tags.
Fail to see the derail when the bonus $$$$ are pointed out and why. Also dont see the derailment on the question as to last years buyer being a
resident. What did that $240,000 do. Maybe if that buyer had been left alone the 2013 permit would have sold right alongside the Montana Governors
Tag. Did anyone think of the publicity that sheep might have got instead of the sour taste it put out. Ohhhh but the power of the finger.delete

Both of you guys first post was just trying to be disruptive. Start another thread if you guys want to discuss other topics other than the 2013 $275 000 auction for conservation.

Start another thread, talk all you want. Can't be more clear than that.

[Rob]

Im sure this guy will be like a lot of people who buy tags and dont end up using it. Man that pisses me off. :)

[The Dude]

Im sure this guy will be like a lot of people who buy tags and dont end up using it. Man that pisses me off. :)

Hahaha....now that's funny right there ;-)

[SPEYMAN]

They only bought the tag,still have to hire a guide.

[The Dude]

Does anyone know where I can find the data on Ptremiers tag Auctions vs Resident Hunting tag revenues?

Any Facebook folks might wanna hop onto the Vancouuver Sun Page, and scroll down to the right, and leave an intelligent comment.

The level of ignorance by most folks there is heart-breaking.

[Jelvis]

If I win the valid Sheep any ram for Kamloops Lake MU 3-29 could I put it up for auction?
Just joking don't be choking lol. Imagine if we could lol, we'd be rich.

[bigwhiteys]

http://bchuntingblog.com/mypics/sheep-rev-non-res.jpg


http://bchuntingblog.com/mypics/sheep-rev-resident.jpg

[guest]

This is GREAT NEWS ...... Bottom Line ..... This Auction puts MORE SHEEP ON OUR MOUNTAINS regardless of what any ANTI says

CT

[325]

One ram in exchange for $275k for sheep enhancement seems like a good deal to me.

[bugler]

The level of ignorance by most folks there is heart-breaking.

And therein lies the reason for my own misgivings regarding such hunting opportunity for the uber-rich.

Like Gate said earlier, every little bit (of education to the ignorant) helps. But I really do think these types of auctions give fuel to the anti's fire and in the end may result in a net loss to our lifestyle. It reminds me of the old movie "Indecent Proposal", where the rich guy offers a young couple a lot of money for one night with the young wife. Pretty easy to dislike the rich guy.

But, it's a lot of money. That's what she said.

[goinghunting]

How does this auction put more sheep on the mountain?


This is GREAT NEWS ...... Bottom Line ..... This Auction puts MORE SHEEP ON OUR MOUNTAINS regardless of what any ANTI says

CT

[bugler]

How does this auction put more sheep on the mountain?

Money is used for habitat protection or enhancement, transplants, etc, all of which contribute to "more sheep on our mountains."

[goinghunting]

I just read this http://www.hctf.ca/News/HTCF_Special_Permits_Report.pdf (http://www.hctf.ca/News/HTCF_Special_Permits_Report.pdf)

I missed it earlier, all awesome stuff! I'm surprised how many projects come from this money!



Money is used for habitat protection or enhancement, transplants, etc, all of which contribute to "more sheep on our mountains."

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I just read this http://www.hctf.ca/News/HTCF_Special_Permits_Report.pdf (http://www.hctf.ca/News/HTCF_Special_Permits_Report.pdf)

I missed it earlier, all awesome stuff! I'm surprised how many projects come from this money!

Now imagine if our politicians would put all the $ generated from hunting and fishing back into Fish and Wildlife where it was originally supposed to go.:?
Wildlife counts and enhancement, enforcement.....just imagine..........................

SSS

[David Heitsman]

Montana get's $480,000 too. WOW! I'm wondering if a new world record has been spotted on the hoof somewhere?

$275 K for BC is incredible as well. I'm hoping these are "leading indicators" of a rebounding economy. We'll be able to fund so many more proposals than before now. It's excellent news.

[BiG Boar]

Wow, that's crazy money. For a sheep. I think it's got to be a prestige thing among the uber rich to give that money to conservation.

[coach]

Wow, that's crazy money. For a sheep. I think it's got to be a prestige thing among the uber rich to give that money to conservation.

I agree with you 100%. I've seen it at many times at numerous fundraising events supporting multiple causes. Awesome that wild sheep can be the beneficiary of this generous behavior!

[gcreek]

$275,000? That's nearly 2 weeks of chopper & shooter time for removing some puppies! Wonder how it will actually be spent?

[budismyhorse]

275k?!?! That is quite a jag higher than the average...... Someone's knows something;)
Likely that hog stone ram and stories surrounding how many big rams were seen on that trip has got a guy or two thinkin.....

[hunter1947]

For the rich not my fortay..

[ianwuzhere]

that guy musta have cashed in all his pennys- thats huge $$.
when people spend such high money like that it makes me feel lucky to live and be able to hunt B.C.
not only is it $275 but some lucky guiding company will prolly get paid very well to guide that person around lookin for a nice sheep and that cost$ too..
-did they say where the lucky/rich person was from?

[The Dude]

Already been posted, but here it is again

http://www.hctf.ca/News/HTCF_Special_Permits_Report.pdf

[ianwuzhere]

Already been posted, but here it is again

http://www.hctf.ca/News/HTCF_Special_Permits_Report.pdf

- ha- i just edited my post as i was reading that link- thanks for the heads up..

[The Dude]

No worries, Ian, it's a good read.

[goinghunting]

Yeah aint that the truth! I would be happy if we could just get some prescribed burns happening!


Now imagine if our politicians would put all the $ generated from hunting and fishing back into Fish and Wildlife where it was originally supposed to go.:?
Wildlife counts and enhancement, enforcement.....just imagine..........................

SSS

[goinghunting]

You mean the pending archery record stone that was killed in 2011?


275k?!?! That is quite a jag higher than the average...... Someone's knows something;)
Likely that hog stone ram and stories surrounding how many big rams were seen on that trip has got a guy or two thinkin.....

[Rackmastr]

You mean the pending archery record stone that was killed in 2011?

The same outfitter was involved in the purchase of this years tag from the sounds of it from people who were at Reno. Should be interesting to see what the tag produces this year!

[bigwhiteys]

From looking at the data issued by the HCTF for the period of 2000 to 2010, It appears that we are getting good returns and tremendous results from the auction tag. Granted this tag is only available to the very wealthy and is untouchable for the average hunter. Place of residence is not an issue, if one looks at the benefits. The added value of this tag is largely due to marketing and Guide Outfitters knowing what is available in their individual areas. If a large ram is out there and his location known by the G/O, I see no problem marketing it, as it assures a better price at auction.


With the fabulous work done by the 6 groups involved with allocating these auction funds to projects, here in B.C. we all benefit. The Foundation For North American Wild Sheep Foundation slogan has always been “Putting Sheep on the Mountain” and they have come to the party not only in B.C. but worldwide on this. With this in mind and looking at the numbers for both the auction and the raffle it becomes clear very quickly, that the raffle ticket is also very attractive to the wealthy in our own province. Due to the small number of tickets sold, a person with a surplus of cash looking for a once in a life time hunt can purchase unlimited amount of tickets. Resulting in a very dramatic increase in chances of drawing the tag at a dramatically reduced price in comparison to auction.


I realize this is a very contentious issue amongst the resident sheep hunters in the province as they feel they are left out of the auction process due to cost. I personally believe that the bulk of the sheep draw tags go to a small number of buyers also ( I can name at least 3 residents who've won because they dropped big bucks on tickets) and the average resident buying one or two tickets is entering with very poor odds of drawing.

I cannot see how to get around this situation and not reduce the annual funding for the lottery style tag. It would be my suggestion that we abolish the resident draw tag and go with a two tag auction at FNAWS. I would also suggest that by making one tag available for thin horn and the other for big horn, we would maximize the return at auction for these tags. Granted it would make the tags unattainable for many, but I believe it is that way now and we are letting the draw tag go for a mere pittance of what could be raised in funding. The resident would lose the lottery opportunity, but would gain tremendous value out of the benefit to our sheep herds.


This is just being thrown out there for feedback and is not part of anything other than the personal views and opinions of another sheep hunter. One that would also find the auction tag unreachable.

[GoatGuy]

The same outfitter was involved in the purchase of this years tag from the sounds of it from people who were at Reno. Should be interesting to see what the tag produces this year!

Be even more interesting to see who lets him hunt in their area............

[GoatGuy]

A raffle across North America would be something worth trying.................

[Rackmastr]

Be even more interesting to see who lets him hunt in their area............

Yep, bet theres some interesting conversations that take place on that one!

[budismyhorse]

Yes....apparently there were quite a few large rams that came out of the woodwork during that hunt

[Stone Sheep Steve]

A raffle across North America would be something worth trying.................

Yes, I think that may generate some serious coin....as long as it is marketed properly.

I only need one chance. Just like 649.
Going to 2 auction tags eliminates the average joe.

SSS

[bigwhiteys]

Going to 2 auction tags eliminates the average joe.

Not really since we can go and buy a $65.00 tag and go hunting GOS for both bighorn and thinhorn. We also have several different LEH's available to us as well. The idea I posted was not mine btw, lol.

[325]

Not really since we can go and buy a $65.00 tag and go hunting GOS for both bighorn and thinhorn. We also have several different LEH's available to us as well. The idea I posted was not mine btw, lol.

Plus we do get to buy cards for the Resident special sheep tag. We really can't complian in BC, as residents do have good sheep hunting opportunities. More money for sheep enhancement is a good thing, and all BCers benefit

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Not really since we can go and buy a $65.00 tag and go hunting GOS for both bighorn and thinhorn. We also have several different LEH's available to us as well. The idea I posted was not mine btw, lol.

What's "special" about the special sheep tags is the season...outside of the regular and LEH seasons.

Just commmenting on the "idea" you posted ...yours or not.

SSS

[goinghunting]

what was killed in 2012 with this special permit?

[budismyhorse]

haven't heard.....maybe still going at it?

[Ramshot]

what was killed in 2012 with this special permit?

P&Y Stone ram

[BCrams]

Someone's knows something;)
.....

You nailed it .....

[blackbart]

Pretty sure that most of us resident hunters will have a crack during the 2013 GOS sheep season at the super duper piss cutter of all time hawg ram prior to any "special sheep permit" holder hunting him on the winter range. Just not sure how many of us want to exert the time and physical effort. The rams being sought after, especially if thinhorn are out there during the regular season in areas open to GOS hunting for residents. To get one you just might have to hunt a very long time without seeing a single sheep.

Thankfully we live in BC and have this opportunity!

[358mag]

Pretty sure that most of us resident hunters will have a crack during the 2013 GOS sheep season at the super duper piss cutter of all time hawg ram prior to any "special sheep permit" holder hunting him on the winter range. Just not sure how many of us want to exert the time and physical effort. The rams being sought after, especially if thinhorn are out there during the regular season in areas open to GOS hunting for residents. To get one you just might have to hunt a very long time without seeing a single sheep.

Thankfully we live in BC and have this opportunity!
You nailed it even better ............:-D

[Gateholio]

A raffle across North America would be something worth trying.................

Replace the auction with a raffle? It would certainly open the hunt up to anyone. Wonder if it generate the same amount of funds. Maybe more? I could certainly see 6000 North American hunters springing $50 for a chance to win. That would translate into $300 000

[Deadshot]

So Joe Blow wins the raffle. Then, he's looking at the guiding fee. $50 000? Ouch!

[Mr. Dean]

So Joe Blow wins the raffle. Then, he's looking at the guiding fee. $50 000? Ouch!

Not if you're a resident. :wink:

[budismyhorse]

Pretty sure that most of us resident hunters will have a crack during the 2013 GOS sheep season at the super duper piss cutter of all time hawg ram prior to any "special sheep permit" holder hunting him on the winter range. Just not sure how many of us want to exert the time and physical effort. The rams being sought after, especially if thinhorn are out there during the regular season in areas open to GOS hunting for residents. To get one you just might have to hunt a very long time without seeing a single sheep.

Thankfully we live in BC and have this opportunity!

to me the best part of being a resident sheep hunter in this province is the possibility of running into a ram like that during a long GoS.... Love it!

[BCrams]

Pretty sure that most of us resident hunters will have a crack during the 2013 GOS sheep season at the super duper piss cutter of all time hawg ram prior to any "special sheep permit" holder hunting him on the winter range. Just not sure how many of us want to exert the time and physical effort. The rams being sought after, especially if thinhorn are out there during the regular season in areas open to GOS hunting for residents. To get one you just might have to hunt a very long time without seeing a single sheep.

Thankfully we live in BC and have this opportunity!

Nailed it even better indeed !!

[BCrams]

Replace the auction with a raffle? It would certainly open the hunt up to anyone. Wonder if it generate the same amount of funds. Maybe more? I could certainly see 6000 North American hunters springing $50 for a chance to win. That would translate into $300 000

I would be all for a NA raffle too if it will generate 300, 000 / yr.

[bigwhiteys]

to me the best part of being a resident sheep hunter in this province is the possibility of running into a ram like that during a long GoS.... Love it!

I've been around sheep hunting long enough to know that a guy doesn't need a closed season to take a good ram. Would it be a cool draw? certainly... But personally, I'd rather make the small sacrifice of not having that closed season opportunity for myself and rather two wealthy dudes could dump their money into our sheep enhancement. I'd like that much better, because.... I can already hunt sheep without a special tag.


Not if you're a resident

If we used gatehouses numbers of 6000 tickets sold the majority would be non-resident (especially since we pay $15 - Gates suggested $50... I'll bet residents would be in a uproar over that lol... the thread would be 100 pages long) The most tickets residents ever bought for the draw was 2722 and that jump was due to a small handful of guys who purchased many thousands in tickets. The odds of the tag going to a resident would be slim if this was open to NA. The odds of some Joe Blow winning a hunt he couldn't afford to go on would be fairly high I would think, unless of course the raffle included the guided hunt...

[Gateholio]

I've been around sheep hunting long enough to know that a guy doesn't need a closed season to take a good ram. Would it be a cool draw? certainly... But personally, I'd rather make the small sacrifice of not having that closed season opportunity for myself and rather two wealthy dudes could dump their money into our sheep enhancement. I'd like that much better, because.... I can already hunt sheep without a special tag.
If we used gatehouses numbers of 6000 tickets sold the majority would be non-resident (especially since we pay $15 - Gates suggested $50... I'll bet residents would be in a uproar over that lol... the thread would be 100 pages long) The most tickets residents ever bought for the draw was 2722 and that jump was due to a small handful of guys who purchased many thousands in tickets. The odds of the tag going to a resident would be slim if this was open to NA. The odds of some Joe Blow winning a hunt he couldn't afford to go on would be fairly high I would think, unless of course the raffle included the guided hunt...

I don't see why residents would be in an uproar. I wasn't suggested replacing the resident draw, just changing the auction to a raffle.

How Joe Blow funds his sheep hunt is his problem. Sheep hunts are expensive, but I bet there would be 6000 hunters in the USA and Canada (hell, allow Europeans to enter, too) that would scrape up $30 000 to go on a relatively guaranteed record book sheep hunt. I wouldn't be surprised if 10 000 tickets were sold at $50 a pop. Without a doubt, the guys that bid up a sheep hunt to $275 000 are going to buy a number of tickets, just like the resident draw in which a handful of guys purchase many tickets. If done correctly, raffles will always draw more revenue than an auction.

[bigwhiteys]

I don't see why residents would be in an uproar. I wasn't suggested replacing the resident draw, just changing the auction to a raffle.

I was meaning if the price of the ticket was raised from $15 - $50. There would be uproar.


How Joe Blow funds his sheep hunt is his problem. Sheep hunts are expensive, but I bet there would be 6000 hunters in the USA and Canada (hell, allow Europeans to enter, too) that would scrape up $30 000 to go on a relatively guaranteed record book sheep hunt.

Well then Joe Blow is much better off going with something like http://www.superslam.org/super-slam/super-slam-raffle where the Guided hunt is included and if you do the math it works out to about $50 per raffle. Seems a like a better deal and there are many different opportunities.

Most Europeans would not even be interested in a sheep hunt so that's pointless... And who is going to be responsible for the "worldwide" marketing campaign to sell these tickets? After expenses the raffle would be broke.

FNAWS has everything in place already, they draw all the big $$$ players to the same room every year. 2 Special Tags = $$$$$$$$ and less administration. We've all seen the rams some of the residents take on this draw and quite frankly... They probably could have done the same or better without it, lol. (granted some have taken some really good rams - I know many others have not taken the caliber of rams that this draw truly offers). These tags fetch big dollars because some dude wants to have that pig ram on HIS wall. Let that ego (and money) fund our sheep enhancement. I am fine with that.... because... I can still go hunt sheep GOS and there are still several LEH's that are very desirable hunts that I am free to enter (with better odds). The money invested into sheep/habitat enhancement would be a win/win/win for everyone further down the road. Just my opinion.

[bighornbob]

Some good comments all around. Just some thoughts on the auction vs raffle debate. When the auction tags first came up as fund raising there were a lot of road blocks. I know as I sat in the room as this was first proposed the Wildsheep AGM. What makes it work is all parties are involved (WSSOBC, GOABC, BCWF, and the Government) and all have to agree on how it will work. If it didn’t BCWF would not want any tags as its seen as selling our wildlife (against their mandate). GOABC would want a ton of auction tags as their members are the guides. The Government would want to put the money in the general coffers instead of wildlife. Everybody came together and have to stay together for this work or the permit is pulled (it happened a few years ago).

In regards to having two auction tags up for auction, sure you would raise some more money but the point of it being special, is you are the only non-resident on the mountain. Wont be too special if you are racing another guy up the mountain. Also I would bet in most of these auctions its just a couple of guys bidding against each other which drives up the price. If there are two tags, both would sell for a lot less (but still combined they would add more revenue). But having two tags would eliminate the resident raffle tag and the Federation would quickly put its foot down. BCWF terms of agreement were one auction tag only and a resident gets the same opportunity.

I am not sure a wide open raffle would make more money than an auction tag as you still have to hire a guide. For most people, if you can afford to go on a $30,000 guided hunt for stone sheep you will already do this without having odds of winning a raffle at 1000:1 odds. I apply for a few of the sheep raffles in the states, but I only apply for the ones that I don’t have to hire a guide for. Even with guiding costs only being around $5000 south of the border that is still a number I could not afford for just a hunt. So when I apply it’s only in States that don’t require non-residents to hire a guide. If you really wanted to make a killing on the raffle, sell tickets for $5 and take off the guide requirement. That way you would have a million average joes throwing in $5 for a chance at a Stone Sheep. But we all know the GOABC would never allow that. Want even more money, throw in a goat tag, grizz tag and a few other tags and you would have guys buying more than one ticket. But now the BCWF would be all up in arms of the province selling our animals.

So as you can see the current system is far from being a system which brings in the most money possible but it is a system that all the major players can agree too.

BHB

[bigwhiteys]

In regards to having two auction tags up for auction, sure you would raise some more money but the point of it being special, is you are the only non-resident on the mountain. Wont be too special if you are racing another guy up the mountain.

1 tag for thinhorn 1 tag for bighorn and that problem is solved. They would also both probably still fetch a good dollar so long as the "rumor mill/marketing campaign" continues to flourish.


BCWF terms of agreement were one auction tag only and a resident gets the same opportunity.

Yes and it seems at a large expense to sheep enhancement $$$ (going by the numbers posted earlier). Residents can already hunt sheep GOS and LEH - granted not in the closed season... Big Deal (I fully understand the benefits of the special season... but still - big deal - same as the guys who want a 2 week head start...)Who doesn't want another potential $100k+ dumped into sheep enhancement annually?

As resident sheep hunters it's my belief that we're being irresponsible to NOT take that silly tag (that is generating very little money and few quality rams - which further market the tag) and unanimously agree to replace it with one at auction that will further benefit the very animal we're all taking advantage of. Just my thoughts...

[Gateholio]

BHB The idea of having the winner not required to hire a guide would indeed be a huge asset. As you said, you would have guys all over the USA and Canada that dream of hunting a ram but not able to afford a $30 000 hunt putting in for it. It would probably be a good PR move too, as critics wouldn't be able to say that BC is selling it's wildlife to the highest bidder.

[bigwhiteys]

BHB The idea of having the winner not required to hire a guide would indeed be a huge asset. As you said, you would have guys all over the USA and Canada that dream of hunting a ram but not able to afford a $30 000 hunt putting in for it. It would probably be a good PR move too, as critics wouldn't be able to say that BC is selling it's wildlife to the highest bidder.

This would devalue the tag. This tag goes for big $$$ because of the quality of the ram it produces (usually when guided). Not because some dude wants to pay $100k+ to sweat his bag off in the BC mountains for a month. How many of us are going to give up our sheep hunting honey holes and or time to help the auction winner get a phenomenal ram?

Sheep Hunts are a narrow market that believe it or not, not every tom, dick and harry who hunts wants to spend the money to gear up for, and the time to plan.... Why reinvent the wheel when the channel is already-to-go through FNAWS with your target market who've also got the $$$$$ to throw down. Let their egos fund our sheep enhancement... The more money we have for enhancement, the healthier our sheep herds would be. Everyone wins in the long-term.

[Gateholio]

I'm not sure it would devalue the tag at all, If the raffle sales amount to more than auction sales. There are many hunters who would love to hunt sheep but simply can't afford it. Relax the rules for the special tag and allow the winner to hunt solo, with a guide, packer or hunter host.

Some research would need to be done on how much $$ is generated through other sheep draws in other parts of North America. I don't know those numbers, just speculating that a raffle will generate more dollars than an auction.

Most of these guys would be happy to take an average mature ram. Change the focus from a wealthy mans ego to an Everymans dream.

[bighornbob]

1 tag for thinhorn 1 tag for bighorn and that problem is solved. They would also both probably still fetch a good dollar so long as the "rumor mill/marketing campaign" continues to flourish.


Actually I dont think you would get that much. Bottom line for the guys that buy the tags is the score of the ram. They are not going to spend 100,000 on a big horn hunt up here if they can get the same sized ram down south for cheaper.


If you look at the tables you posted, in 2008 the bidder withdrew. I was told he bought the tag then walked around to the outfitters and was asking which one of them could guarentee a 180" Stone sheep. As no outfitter could he went to the bighorn outfitters and wanted a 200" bighorn as none of those could guarentee a 200" bighorn he wanted his money back. The tag was put back up for auction but did not the get the minimum of 100,000 that is stipulated by the government.


Yes and it seems at a large expense to sheep enhancement $$$ (going by the numbers posted earlier). Residents can already hunt sheep GOS and LEH - granted not in the closed season... Big Deal (I fully understand the benefits of the special season... but still - big deal - same as the guys who want a 2 week head start...)Who doesn't want another potential $100k+ dumped into sheep enhancement annually

You are right its not a big deal to guys like me and you that hunt sheep every year. But the majority of the provinces hunters do not hunt sheep every so they want a greater advantage as its a special tag and they especially want the same chance as a rich non-resident. Thats the BCWF call as they represent all hunters not just the sheep hunters.

In regards to quality of the rams taken by residents, that also depends on whether the winner is a sheep hunter or not. The guys that hunt sheep usually shoot rams on par with what the non-residents do. Winners that dont hunt sheep shoot a respectable ram. No different then the Kamloops Lake LEH, guys put that draw on such a pedistal, but a lot of rams that are shot there are smaller then sheep taken in the GOS buy sheep nuts.


As resident sheep hunters it's my belief that we're being irresponsible to NOT take that silly tag (that is generating very little money and few quality rams - which further market the tag) and unanimously agree to replace it with one at auction that will further benefit the very animal we're all taking advantage of. Just my thoughts...

To play the devils advocate why dont the guides remove their requirment that the winner has to be guided. We all know that a raffle with no guide requirement would get a ton of people applying and it would raise way more money then an auction tag.

So if we want the most money get rid of the guide requirement.

If we want to make some decent money for wildlife keep it the way it is now as all the parties agree to those terms (you dont know how hard it was to even get this far). Sure there are better ways but we all agree on this one.

BHB

[bigwhiteys]

You are right its not a big deal to guys like me and you that hunt sheep every year. But the majority of the provinces hunters do not hunt sheep every so they want a greater advantage as its a special tag and they especially want the same chance as a rich non-resident. Thats the BCWF call as they represent all hunters not just the sheep hunters.

The majority of the provinces hunters don't even put in for the special draw. They don't even care, lol... There is probably less than 1000 of us that actually buy the special draw tickets (many of us buying multiples) and some individuals buying 100's on their own. So who was the BCWF speaking for in this case? A teeny, tiny, handful of guys? Definitely not for the sheep.


To play the devils advocate why dont the guides remove their requirment that the winner has to be guided. We all know that a raffle with no guide requirement would get a ton of people applying and it would raise way more money then an auction tag. So if we want the most money get rid of the guide requirement.

We all know...? No we really don't know... There are assumptions it would but there is no basis behind them. We already know 1 tag generates X amount of dollars. North America isn't going to beat the door down trying to buy tickets because we removed the guide requirement on the special sheep tag.

You're still talking HUGE money and TIME and KNOWLEDGE to go on a hunt like this and you're talking about a MAJOR marketing campaign to spread the word to enough people that actually cared. You would need mass marketing into the hundreds of thousands of dollars through paid placements which would erode away any whisper of enhancement money. Then if the self-guided hunter shoots a sub-par ram (unguided) the next year nobody even remembers the tag.

[madrona sh]

I'm glad the lottery went so well the Sheep need a few bucks right now.
It's a great way to raise extra cash for wildlife.

[Kody94]

Pretty sure that most of us resident hunters will have a crack during the 2013 GOS sheep season at the super duper piss cutter of all time hawg ram prior to any "special sheep permit" holder hunting him on the winter range. Just not sure how many of us want to exert the time and physical effort. The rams being sought after, especially if thinhorn are out there during the regular season in areas open to GOS hunting for residents. To get one you just might have to hunt a very long time without seeing a single sheep.

Thankfully we live in BC and have this opportunity!

Technically the non-resident and resident Premier's Tag holders will have 21 days in July to try to find it before the rest of us get a crack.

The nice thing about it though is that there are rams getting big and dying of old age in more places than that one. You just have to be out there looking and you never know what you'll find. Great to be a resident.

Another upside of big ram rumours is that the gold rush mentality of sheep hunters might take a little pressure off of other areas for a year or two. lol

[Kody94]

I'm not sure I agree that the removal of the guide requirement would really increase the value of the tag from a raffle perspective. Most non-residents that bought a tag would need a lot of help. Even residents realize its a once in a lifetime opportunity and if they don't have the time to do it justice have hired some help. Its super common in the States for residents to hire guides for high odds hunts...like desert bighorns etc.

GOs charge big $$$ for sheep because of supply and demand (ie. they can) and because they want to maximize income from their business. The Premier Permit ram does not come out of their quota and can go anywhere in the province that has a sheep season (ie. not necessarily a GO territory). I am SURE you wouldn't have to pay $40k to $50k to get professional help with your Premier Permit.

[bighornbob]

The majority of the provinces hunters don't even put in for the special draw. They don't even care, lol... There is probably less than 1000 of us that actually buy the special draw tickets (many of us buying multiples) and some individuals buying 100's on their own. So who was the BCWF speaking for in this case? A teeny, tiny, handful of guys? Definitely not for the sheep.



We all know...? No we really don't know... There are assumptions it would but there is no basis behind them. We already know 1 tag generates X amount of dollars. North America isn't going to beat the door down trying to buy tickets because we removed the guide requirement on the special sheep tag.

You're still talking HUGE money and TIME and KNOWLEDGE to go on a hunt like this and you're talking about a MAJOR marketing campaign to spread the word to enough people that actually cared. You would need mass marketing into the hundreds of thousands of dollars through paid placements which would erode away any whisper of enhancement money. Then if the self-guided hunter shoots a sub-par ram (unguided) the next year nobody even remembers the tag.

Your making a huge assumptions on a lot of things from the huge marketing campaign required to make it known to a sub-par ram being shot and the tag being forgotten. You have to remember just because you want to shoot a big mature heavy stone sheep is admirable, but most guys south of the border or east of Alberta would probably give their left nut for a chance at a 5 year old 3/4 stone sheep. I remember seeing a picture in Grand Slam where a guys was posing with a 1 1/2 year old Desert Ram (it looked like a ewe). It completed his North American 29 with a longbow. And to top his ram, he was wearing a custom made T-shirt that read "Gotter Done" He had a smile from ear to ear. Is this my idea of a trophy, no, but I am not going to judge another on shooting something less then what I think is ideal. Obviously it was legal, so who am I to judge. If a 5 year old ram brings in 500,000 grand for BC wildlife then so be it.

Just look at the pics on US website of what guys are shooting out west and happier then pigs in S**t. Sh*t I even went down to Montana and shot a 13 inch pronghorn (gasp), I am sure the guys from Wyoming are still laughing that I did not shoot a 15 inch head. I am not making any assumptions, I know for a fact that there would be a ton of guys applying just to shoot a stone sheep, regardless of size or age.

BHB

[bigwhiteys]

Your making a huge assumptions on a lot of things from the huge marketing campaign required to make it known to a sub-par ram being shot and the tag being forgotten.

The value of this tag is in the caliber of ram that's taken the year before or years before and the potential for that reoccurence. If you wanted to promote the raffle style of draw it would take a large marketing campaign through commercials, magazines and other mass media targeted at average Joe hunters to get the ticket sales required to out-due the auction, pay off your costs AND turn a profit that could be used for enhancement. To back that up with a simple example our Grizzly Bear Hunt petition has struggled to get even 12,000 signatures with worldwide word of mouth, even shout outs on many websites, F&G clubs and even a few celebrity hunter shout outs if I remember correctly... Granted there was nothing to win, but it also didn't cost anything to signup either and look at the turnout with MILLIONS of hunters? What would/could we do differently that would guarantee hunters would flock to this draw in record numbers?


If a 5 year old ram brings in 500,000 grand for BC wildlife then so be it.

$500,000 goes a lot further than the $17k or so we as residents are generating on our end of the special draw... But I just really don't think the raffle idea would be able to create enough buzz to generate that kind of dough. Look what we as residents are spending on the draw already with a province of approx 100,000 hunter and that's your answer. Not Much. All 100,000 residents don't need a guide, yet almost none put in for the special draw.

[GoatGuy]

The value of this tag is in the caliber of ram that's taken the year before or years before and the potential for that reoccurence. If you wanted to promote the raffle style of draw it would take a large marketing campaign through commercials, magazines and other mass media targeted at average Joe hunters to get the ticket sales required to out-due the auction, pay off your costs AND turn a profit that could be used for enhancement. To back that up with a simple example our Grizzly Bear Hunt petition has struggled to get even 12,000 signatures with worldwide word of mouth, even shout outs on many websites, F&G clubs and even a few celebrity hunter shout outs if I remember correctly... Granted there was nothing to win, but it also didn't cost anything to signup either and look at the turnout with MILLIONS of hunters? What would/could we do differently that would guarantee hunters would flock to this draw in record numbers?



$500,000 goes a lot further than the $17k or so we as residents are generating on our end of the special draw... But I just really don't think the raffle idea would be able to create enough buzz to generate that kind of dough. Look what we as residents are spending on the draw already with a province of approx 100,000 hunter and that's your answer. Not Much. All 100,000 residents don't need a guide, yet almost none put in for the special draw.

Apples and oranges, those examples are pretty outlandish. Comparing an advocacy issue to a reward related issue isn't consistent with a realistic approach.

This is one of those things you really won't know until you try. None of us have the ability to accurately predict the outcome. In terms of advertising, the current WSF take is 15%, gives a person a place to start and implement. So far as the outfitter requirement is concerned, it's either or. The KIB permit comes with the outfitter and marketing (that isn't cheap either).

Per the usual it's a controversial topic, lots of personal bias and a lack of focus on outcomes. Round and round we go.

[Kody94]

Couldn't agree more.

[Gateholio]

BHB I 100% agree with what you are saying. The value of the tag at an auction depends on the score of the ram. The value of the tag via raffle has pretty much nothing to do with the size of the ram. It's about giving Average Joe the opportunity to do something that he would never be able to do via traditional means. Joe would be happy with ANY decent sized ram.

McDonalds sells more Big Macs than any high end burger place, not because a Big Mac is good, but because anybody can afford $5 for a Bigmac, but few want to splurge $20 for a sirloin burger with a handmade bun

[bigwhiteys]

Average Joe "Raffle" income over 10 Years = $185,318.00
Annual Auction income over 10 Years = $1,317,000.00 net

This is a province with approx 100,000 hunters and less than 1000 enter the "raffle" and none of them need to hire a guide. I've spoken with hunters in BC who didn't even know there was a special sheep draw... and it's mentioned right in the regs! Interest across NA isn't going to draw the $$$$$ you think it will without some serious marketing behind it to educate and motivate your ticket buyers.


McDonalds sells more Big Macs than any high end burger place, not because a Big Mac is good, but because anybody can afford $5 for a Bigmac, but few want to splurge $20 for a sirloin burger with a handmade bun

The place with the handmade bun can't afford to spend a couple hundred million dollars in advertising campaigns and celebrity endorsements.

[Gateholio]

Again, we have to compare apples to apples. BC hunters have the opportunity to hunt sheep every year via gos. If we couldn't do that, I'd suspect participation in the special draw would shoot through the roof.

[bigwhiteys]

If we couldn't do that, I'd suspect participation in the special draw would shoot through the roof.

How many GOS sheep tags do you think are bought every year? I'll bet it's around 1500 or less. The level of interest you allude to just isn't there.

[bighornbob]

Average Joe "Raffle" income over 10 Years = $185,318.00
Annual Auction income over 10 Years = $1,317,000.00 net

This is a province with approx 100,000 hunters and less than 1000 enter the "raffle" and none of them need to hire a guide. I've spoken with hunters in BC who didn't even know there was a special sheep draw... and it's mentioned right in the regs! Interest across NA isn't going to draw the $$$$$ you think it will without some serious marketing behind it to educate and motivate your ticket buyers.


The place with the handmade bun can't afford to spend a couple hundred million dollars in advertising campaigns and celebrity endorsements.

I know what you are getting at Carl, but getting rid of the resident LEH tag wont happen regardless of what we think is best. If the Sheep Society and the Gov. wanted two auction tags, the whole thing would be shut down by the BCWF. Their mandate is “the provinces wildlife is not for sale”. They believe if more than one tag is issued, then more will be issued and then more, than the residents will be getting the shaft as the government sales more and more tags to the highest bidder. You don’t know how hard it was to just get one tag. Yah you can say the BCWF is being paranoid and maybe they are.

Just like if we pushed the outfitter requirement be thrown out, the GOABC would pull out and the whole thing gets shut down. Why are they so concerned about a few non-residents coming in and hunting without guides. Even if it was 10-15 guys a year (assuming we had raffles for a few species). They are losing no money as most of these guys would never be able to afford a guided hunt. So an extra couple of caribou, grizz, moose and goat are shot out of a few guys areas. Is it really such a big deal, no. Maybe they think if a few non-residents are allowed to hunt without guides it will lead to more and more than the whole outfitters industry is shut down. Its the same paranoia the BCWF is using.

It works the way it does as everyone is in agreement. Is it perfect and does it raise the most money possible, by all means no. But the current system has everyone on board, always brings in at least $100,000 which is better than relying solely on the Governement.

BHB

[GoatGuy]

Average Joe "Raffle" income over 10 Years = $185,318.00
Annual Auction income over 10 Years = $1,317,000.00 net

This is a province with approx 100,000 hunters and less than 1000 enter the "raffle" and none of them need to hire a guide. I've spoken with hunters in BC who didn't even know there was a special sheep draw... and it's mentioned right in the regs! Interest across NA isn't going to draw the $$$$$ you think it will without some serious marketing behind it to educate and motivate your ticket buyers.



The place with the handmade bun can't afford to spend a couple hundred million dollars in advertising campaigns and celebrity endorsements.

There are about 9,000 Sheep LEH applicants annually in BC - if there are only 1,000 tickets purchased for the 'premier draw' we might have a problem with awareness (light bulb goes on). Pretty easy thing to cure and invest a bit of $ into to increase the provincial return exponentially if that's the objective (even @15%/gross).

The rational you've provided and examples seem fairly outlandish given the demand for diminished opportunities through the regular LEH process and demand in other parts of NA for sheep hunting opportunities. The substantiation behind the 'marketing plan' is also very, very weak, substantiated through personal bias and a lack of experience which really leaves the argument and discussion as a lost leader.

Oh well.

[bigwhiteys]

There are about 9,000 Sheep LEH applicants annually in BC


9000 applicants doesn't mean 9000 enthusiasts... How many TAGS are actually bought GOS and LEH together.



if there are only 1,000 tickets purchased for the 'premier draw' we might have a problem with awareness (light bulb goes on).


It's more than 1000 tickets, but less than 1000 people who buy them. There are individuals who buy $100's or $1000's worth of these tickets.



Pretty easy thing to cure and invest a bit of $ into to increase the provincial return exponentially if that's the objective (even @15%/gross).


What money are we going to invest? BCWF money....? They (sorry BCRHPF) blew $17,000 on a Vancouver Sun ad regarding the allocation policy with what return? Are you suggesting we use a similar method to increase awareness of the special sheep draw? Or do you have some other ideas...?



The substantiation behind the 'marketing plan' is also very, very weak, substantiated through personal bias and a lack of experience which really leaves the argument and discussion as a lost leader.


You want to judge my experience in marketing? I don't see you posting up your impressive resume for all to judge, lol? FYI... I started and own two businesses in the marketing field, that do quite well. I'll reserve my comments on your extensive life experience for another time. This thread is about raising money for sheep enhancement.


The good old BCWF demands the resident has 1 special permit available and then has totally ignored trying to market it or raise funds unlike the WSF auction. (as proven over the last 10 years!) I guess the non-resident outshines the resident and their representative group again. Roughly 1 out of 9 hunters buys a LEH sheep tag and roughly 1 in 100 buys the special sheep tag. Yep, lets have a non-outfitted raffle for the special tags and give our sheep away for nothing.


I'm all for whatever way will generate the MOST money for sheep enhancement, I just don't think the NA wide non-guided raffle would do it... Feel free to continue your personal attacks if you feel it makes your argument stronger.

[Gateholio]

BHB what you are saying makes sense. It is a pity that GOABC wouldn't agree to having one unguided special permit holder per year in the interest of sheep enhancement. Although a work around that could even be a raffle that includes the services of a guide. The guide could be paid out of the raffle earnings.

How many hunters would buy a $25-$50 ticket for a fully guided, special season sheep hunt? My guess is quite a few. $50 for a chance to win a dream hunt with virtually a guarantee of coming home with a ram would be very attractive.

Marketing and administration would be easy, in my opinion. There are millions of hunters on hunting forums that would spread the word. Every state and province has a BCWF organization with an email list, most of them would be quite happy to forward an announcement to their members. A press release to all the various hunting magazines would give mention to the raffle all over the world.

Administration can be easy to- Tickets are only sold via website. Go online, punch in VISA #, hit ADD TO CART as many tickets as you want, then print out your tickets and you are done.

I could easily see 10 000 tickets sold at $50 a ticket. Just like our resident permit, the wealthy would buy 100 or more tickets, the average Joe would buy one or 2, but everyone has a shot at winning.

[boxhitch]

The current rules are that any non-resident , Canadian or alien , must be guided. Not sure that is driven by the g/o or just a BC standing. Any exception would open up a whole can of s#!+storm, testing rules for hunter host as well as others.
BC Gaming has rules about what can be sold in raffles and lotteries and where , meeting those would be near impossible with this type of raffle.

WSF was asked about hosting a raffle of the KIB tag, and they would want 20% admin fee iirc. That money wouldn't be seen in BC.

Ther are far better ways to raise funds for sheep and wildlife in general. Check out how much poachers contribute to HCTF every year ,

[Gateholio]

We already have raffles for tags- the BC resident sheep permit for example. I don't see the issue with BC gaming.

[boxhitch]

That is for sale in BC only.
Then there is the Criminal Code of Canada rules for selling lotteries in Canada

[.300WSMImpact!]

How many GOS sheep tags do you think are bought every year? I'll bet it's around 1500 or less. The level of interest you allude to just isn't there.

the level of interest isnt there because its not like any other hunt, its not like this year if I decide to sheep hunt (I never have before) I just head out into what I think is sheep area I will get a chance at a sheep plus take the time off work and family life to get into sheep area, deer hunting you can be a weekend worrier or evening hunter and get a chance at deer

[bugler]

What some don't seem to understand is that our very system of wildlife management relies on the premise that the wildlife belongs to the public. It is not meant to be just for people who can afford huge sums to do it. Making this special opportunity only available to people with means would not be acceptable to the rank and file average BC hunter. Whether they actually apply for the tag themselves or not, the notion that there would be no chance for a regular resident would rub most the wrong way. That is why there has to be one for raffle.

[The Dude]

BHB what you are saying makes sense. It is a pity that GOABC wouldn't agree to having one unguided special permit holder per year in the interest of sheep enhancement. Although a work around that could even be a raffle that includes the services of a guide. The guide could be paid out of the raffle earnings.

How many hunters would buy a $25-$50 ticket for a fully guided, special season sheep hunt? My guess is quite a few. $50 for a chance to win a dream hunt with virtually a guarantee of coming home with a ram would be very attractive.

Marketing and administration would be easy, in my opinion. There are millions of hunters on hunting forums that would spread the word. Every state and province has a BCWF organization with an email list, most of them would be quite happy to forward an announcement to their members. A press release to all the various hunting magazines would give mention to the raffle all over the world.

Administration can be easy to- Tickets are only sold via website. Go online, punch in VISA #, hit ADD TO CART as many tickets as you want, then print out your tickets and you are done.

I could easily see 10 000 tickets sold at $50 a ticket. Just like our resident permit, the wealthy would buy 100 or more tickets, the average Joe would buy one or 2, but everyone has a shot at winning.

I think that could work. Given that it was a paid, guided hunt, the GOABC can't complain. Problem is, fees would have to be settled in advance, and few if any GOs are going to want to put up a cranker ram for a raffle winner with likely no tip money. :O
Then of course, the average guy would be happy with a decent ram, and the guy who bought 100 tickets can afford tip money to see "What's over the next hill" ;-)
Publicity, as you said, would be relatively easy and very cheap, (Hell, we have the Intraweb and FB now) and the whole 'Conservation' aspect of it could be heavily underlined throughout the whole process.
Non-profit, Gov't run, the lottery Corp is a non-issue.
Payment? Hell, Paypa,l Hyper Wallet, VISA, MC Interac, again, not an issue.
Biggest issue is publicity within the community, and the 'optics' outside the community for the bunny huggers.

[David Heitsman]

Wow!

Happy to see the interest here, however... some of us here are trying to fix something that's not broken. $275,000 is huge! C'mon Celebrate.

Go to the Arizona special lottery http://arizonabiggamesuperraffle.com/results.html that includes a desert bighorn tag and a crack at 400" elk and you'll see that there simply isn't the wide spread interest in a BC sheep that that some of you are thinking is there. Here 10 species tags generates $450,000 and we have one that sells for more than half that with our net.

Arizona actually has a pretty cool lottery aside from their usual state run program The season is open for 365 days. Guide not required. Doesn't affect your regular draws or your resident bag limit in their GOS for the residents. It's a very liberal lottery.

Shoot, now that I've called attention to it... my chances of winning their desert sheep just went down!

[Gateholio]

David, that's the type of info that is needed. Nothing really wrong with our system, just tossing around ideas that may improve it.

[coach]

Great post, David! Sounds like the current system is working well. Any chance the elk permit will come back?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

How about the lottery system paying for the guiding service? Come to some pre-arranged fee with the GOABC sheep guides. "If" a system like this could raise $500,000, what's taking $40K or so out of that to pay for the guiding service?

SSS

[bridger]

The sheep permit is going for really good money and the system works well so I would hate to see any serious changes made. I do like rhe idea of a raffle as well but the reality of sheep hunting (access, finding a spot to hunt, etc) is such that I question the level of interest for a sheep raffle across the board. On the other hand a moose hunt may draw more interest. Waive the mandatory guide law, (no permit to accompany) give two non res tags and two res tags (buddy system) make it for any moose. Run it through the leh draw at $100 a pop. Moose country is easier to access, etc and the majority of non res hunters are mostly meat hunters like us. Alberta did something similar in 1967, in the worsley area just east of fort st john. They didn't run a leh or raffle they just sold licenses and waived the guide requiremnt. They were hoping to sell a thousand or so tags. Instead they had applications for over 10,000 so they had too quickly put a ceiling on the tags. Non residents can easily drive to bc and take the meat home as well. Also I think a moose hunt would appeal to more residents than the sheep tag. Food for thought on a Saturday night.

[Kody94]

5218 applicants for a desert bighorn at $25 a pop. That should give everyone an idea of how limited the market actually is for sheep!

ps: you are right David...your odds just went down by 1/5219th. lol

[Kody94]

BHB what you are saying makes sense. It is a pity that GOABC wouldn't agree to having one unguided special permit holder per year in the interest of sheep enhancement. Although a work around that could even be a raffle that includes the services of a guide. The guide could be paid out of the raffle earnings.

How many hunters would buy a $25-$50 ticket for a fully guided, special season sheep hunt? My guess is quite a few. $50 for a chance to win a dream hunt with virtually a guarantee of coming home with a ram would be very attractive.

Marketing and administration would be easy, in my opinion. There are millions of hunters on hunting forums that would spread the word. Every state and province has a BCWF organization with an email list, most of them would be quite happy to forward an announcement to their members. A press release to all the various hunting magazines would give mention to the raffle all over the world.

Administration can be easy to- Tickets are only sold via website. Go online, punch in VISA #, hit ADD TO CART as many tickets as you want, then print out your tickets and you are done.

I could easily see 10 000 tickets sold at $50 a ticket. Just like our resident permit, the wealthy would buy 100 or more tickets, the average Joe would buy one or 2, but everyone has a shot at winning.


There are a TONNE of these raffles already, every year. WSF, GSCO (Raffle-Rama and SuperSlam drawings), and Full Curl Society each have multiples of this. Usually $100 a crack, but some (like FCS) are less. I don't think they are anywhere near as lucrative as you might be guessing. And I think most of the wealthy guys would rather spend $40,000 at the fundraising banquet on a sure thing, than $5000 on a raffle.

[boxhitch]

They didn't run a leh or raffle they just sold licenses and waived the guide requiremnt.Selling something tangible is easier than selling a chance.


I think most of the wealthy guys would rather spend $40,000 at the fundraising banquet on a sure thing,Especially when it is a charitable donation , anything to beat taxes.

Wonder if the $275k is classed as charitable ? Do these buyers get a tax receipt ? hhmm

[bridger]

Selling something tangible is easier than selling a chance.

Especially when it is a charitable donation , anything to beat taxes.

Wonder if the $275k is classed as charitable ? Do these buyers get a tax receipt ? hhmm


For sure a tangible asset is much easier to sell. One 10 minute auction and wham $275,000 Awesome!! That is why I think we should leave the sheep tag untouched. On the other hand people are dreamers and there are a lot more meat hunters than trophy hunters.. Moose hunting appeals to a lot of nonresident hunters and I would be really surprised if it didn't raise as much or more than the sheep tag. Albeit more time consuming and different advertising venues, but as others have stated the Internet makes it much easier.

[boxhitch]

Nothing really wrong with our system,Its fracked !

Lets battle for something more fundamental
Lets try to get all the monies generated by the sale of licenses and tags put into a wildlife account instead of general coffers.
Not into environmental issues as that would get syphoned off for crap like 'septic tank watch' and 'pipeline monitoring'
Hunters are paying for access to the wildlife , the money should go to wildlife.

Special tag sales would be a non-flyer and the end of a contentious issue.

[GoatGuy]

9000 applicants doesn't mean 9000 enthusiasts... How many TAGS are actually bought GOS and LEH together.





It's more than 1000 tickets, but less than 1000 people who buy them. There are individuals who buy $100's or $1000's worth of these tickets.





What money are we going to invest? BCWF money....? They (sorry BCRHPF) blew $17,000 on a Vancouver Sun ad regarding the allocation policy with what return? Are you suggesting we use a similar method to increase awareness of the special sheep draw? Or do you have some other ideas...?





You want to judge my experience in marketing? I don't see you posting up your impressive resume for all to judge, lol? FYI... I started and own two businesses in the marketing field, that do quite well. I'll reserve my comments on your extensive life experience for another time. This thread is about raising money for sheep enhancement.


The good old BCWF demands the resident has 1 special permit available and then has totally ignored trying to market it or raise funds unlike the WSF auction. (as proven over the last 10 years!) I guess the non-resident outshines the resident and their representative group again. Roughly 1 out of 9 hunters buys a LEH sheep tag and roughly 1 in 100 buys the special sheep tag. Yep, lets have a non-outfitted raffle for the special tags and give our sheep away for nothing.


I'm all for whatever way will generate the MOST money for sheep enhancement, I just don't think the NA wide non-guided raffle would do it... Feel free to continue your personal attacks if you feel it makes your argument stronger.

The divergence between beliefs and the application of the scientific method are usually so far apart the investment in discussion isn't worth the benefit. We are truly worlds apart when it comes to decision making, reasoning and the general acceptance and application of science that we probably won't agree on much other than the odd snippet about character and qualitative discussions - even that will be clouded with the same issues with thought process and 'convictions' based on beliefs as opposed to evidence. It's probably best to leave it at that.

[GoatGuy]

Its fracked !

Lets battle for something more fundamental
Lets try to get all the monies generated by the sale of licenses and tags put into a wildlife account instead of general coffers.
Not into environmental issues as that would get syphoned off for crap like 'septic tank watch' and 'pipeline monitoring'
Hunters are paying for access to the wildlife , the money should go to wildlife.

Special tag sales would be a non-flyer and the end of a contentious issue.
Geez you are smart!!!!!

[deano]

We resident hunters in B.C. are soooo fortunate to live where we do!!!

[j270wsm]

A few of the auctioned tags were used to take big horns less than 15k from my house, only sad part for me is, those rams aren't usually there until after the season closes. I have hiked the mountain where the ram pictured in the first post was shot. I like that the tag is auctioned to help enhance sheep habitat, but hate seeing huge rams shot after the regular season has ended

[adriaticum]

This money is going to the provincial government by the looks of it.
Don't count on it going to anything sheep related.

[Kody94]

Are you saying that government has changed its policy for revenue from the two Premier's Permits? I have not heard of a change. It should still be going to HCTF.

http://www.hctf.ca/News/HTCF_Special_Permits_Report.pdf

[adriaticum]

Are you saying that government has changed its policy for revenue from the two Premier's Permits? I have not heard of a change. It should still be going to HCTF.

http://www.hctf.ca/News/HTCF_Special_Permits_Report.pdf

The address on there was:
Ministry of Forests, Lands
and Natural Resource Operations
Fish, Wildlife and Habitat Management Branch
and Habitat Conservation Trust Foundation
P.O. Box 9391 STN PROV GOVT
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
V8W 9M8

As soon as I see money going to a government ministry I can only hope something will hit the HCTF.
I won't assume it's going to conservation.
Same thing happened with the fishing license and tag money few years ago. It was discovered that the money went to general revenues.
Since then, I'm a little sceptical.

If there are people who will spend 275K for a sheep tag, I sure hope there will be some tags left for us British Columbians.

[bridger]

Money from the premieres tag goes to the HCF. Money for licenses and tags always gas gone to general revenue

[Kody94]

The address on there was:
Ministry of Forests, Lands
and Natural Resource Operations
Fish, Wildlife and Habitat Management Branch
and Habitat Conservation Trust Foundation
P.O. Box 9391 STN PROV GOVT
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
V8W 9M8

As soon as I see money going to a government ministry I can only hope something will hit the HCTF.
I won't assume it's going to conservation.
Same thing happened with the fishing license and tag money few years ago. It was discovered that the money went to general revenues.
Since then, I'm a little sceptical.

If there are people who will spend 275K for a sheep tag, I sure hope there will be some tags left for us British Columbians.

I can understand skepticism, but leading folks to believe that auction funds would go to general revenue without anything to support that, after 12 years+ of it actually going to HCTF and wildlife projects is not particularly cool. Based on your first statement, I assumed you had some new intel...

Read the report and the terms of reference for the tags...we can afford to sell one ram and raffle another...but there is no support for more than that.

[6616]

The address on there was:
Ministry of Forests, Lands
and Natural Resource Operations
Fish, Wildlife and Habitat Management Branch
and Habitat Conservation Trust Foundation
P.O. Box 9391 STN PROV GOVT
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
V8W 9M8

As soon as I see money going to a government ministry I can only hope something will hit the HCTF.
I won't assume it's going to conservation.
Same thing happened with the fishing license and tag money few years ago. It was discovered that the money went to general revenues.
Since then, I'm a little sceptical.

If there are people who will spend 275K for a sheep tag, I sure hope there will be some tags left for us British Columbians.

Adriaticum you might want to check your info sources for accuracy. Under special agreement the Freshwater Fishing Society receives 53% of fresh water angling licence revenue plus they get an annual payment for conservation services rendered, and another annual grant for infrastructure maintenance.

Under the HCTF there is a special permits fund with an account each for sheep and Roosevelt Elk. There is also a special board of trustees to operate the special permits fund and make the dispersements. Trustees come from the Wild Sheep Foundation, the Wild Sheep Society of BC, the BCWF and the GOABC. Government nor even the HCTF itself has control over the money.

[boxhitch]

This money is going to the provincial government by the looks of it.
Don't count on it going to anything sheep related.Better check your source , if you have one.

[1/2 slam]

This money is going to the provincial government by the looks of it.
Don't count on it going to anything sheep related.

You are 100% wrong. The money goes to HCTF. There is at least 1 member on here that sits on the board that administers the use of the money.

[adriaticum]

I hope you are right.
I'd hate to see more conservation money go to general revenues and then see COs lose their jobs and poachers run rampant.

[BCrams]

Money for licenses and tags always gas gone to general revenue

While its not new news, this needs to change and be converted over to habitat and wildlife.

[1/2 slam]

I hope you are right.
I'd hate to see more conservation money go to general revenues and then see COs lose their jobs and poachers run rampant.

Part of the original agreement between all parties involved (BCWF, WSSBC,GOABC and the Government) was that it NOT go into general revenue. It has never gone into general revenue.