Poached Clinton Californian Ram

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Finally got the info some of you requested about the poached ram in the Clinton area. Here it is.......

I am once again seeking assistance in solving a bighorn sheep poaching occurrence. On Monday, November 13th at approximately 3:15 pm, a rancher residing approximately 8 km north of Clinton observed a dead ram on one of his fields. He approached with his son and they observed it to be a very large ram, shot at least once and still warm.
The ranchers returned to their residence to report the occurrence. Before they could get back out to watch the road at my request until I could attend, the suspect(s) had already dragged the sheep behind a bush, cut its head off and left. It was likely the suspects were hiding and watching when the ranchers approached.
There is no open season where this sheep was shot. It is a large ram, horns extending well past the bridge of the nose on both sides. It may be the same ram as the one in the attached picture I took last year, the largest ram in the upper right of the picture, or it may be a larger one.
Numerous residents of the area reported seeing a newer model grey 4 door honda civic with a loud aftermarket exhaust hunting in the area, at least 2, probably 3 occupants. It is very likely this was the vehicle and hunters involved.
If anyone has any information that could help solve this it would be appreciated. Please watch for this ram head to surface, and if anyone can recall checking hunters in a grey civic with loud exhaust, or notices it in the future, let me know. Feel free to circulate this to anyone who may be able to help. Matteo, can you forward this to the Ashcroft and 100 mile detachments please.
<<Rams 017.jpg>>
Bob Butcher
Conservation Officer
Lillooet District
Bag 700, 639A Main St.,
Lillooet, BC V0K 1V0
PH: (250) 256-0657
FAX: (250) 256-2717
CEL: (250) 256-9100
EMAIL: bob.butcher@gov.bc.ca
http://usera.imagecave.com/BrentT/Rams017.jpg


If anyone has any info please contact the CO involved.

Beauty of a ram!:mad:
Thanks
SSS

[WoodOx]

Yeah, what a waste. How could someone consider that a trophy when its poached is beyond me, it would be like stealing someones mounted head and saying you took the animal.

G'luck

[kishman]

I hope you get him Bob, good luck.

[Will]

That really Stinks...........:mad:
Hope to hell they catch them:|

[Onesock]

Bob-- Maybe you should refer to the guys in the grey car as poachers and not hunters. Why do honest hunters have to take the brunt of this. This is poaching without a doubt and had nothing to do with hunting!!

[mark]

I was hunting clinton a few times in late season this year! All the locals were in a fuss about that poaching! Asking alot of weird quos and such. Saw the CO in the local bar, asking the waitress if she remembered the guys in question! I have been watching that sheep herd for years as i hunt deer in the same area, some nice rams for sure! I think that incident broke up the batchelor group, as i saw single rams running around the bush like mulies! I sure hope the *******s get cought!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Bob-- Maybe you should refer to the guys in the grey car as poachers and not hunters. Why do honest hunters have to take the brunt of this. This is poaching without a doubt and had nothing to do with hunting!!

I don't know proper CO jargen but I would assume they are "hunters" until proven "poachers" in a court of law. There may have been hunters in that "suspect" vehicle. Legal mumbo jumbo:| .

SSS

[Rainwater]

Does that mean bank robbers are just customers making a withdrawl until they get caught?

[Fisher-Dude]

Hopefully they catch the *******s. It's probably the same ram I saw in with the cows that same weekend when we were coming down from deer hunting. All poaching pisses me off, but when it's a sheep it seems especially bad. A number of years ago, 4 full curl rams were poached on Westside Road by Fintry from the Shorts Creek herd. Sad.:mad:

[sawmill]

Kinda in the same topic.does any one remember the monster that was poached by a guy at the feeding station around Salmo about 10 years ago?A semi native guy shot it with crossbow in mid-winter and tried to say it was for "cerimonial purposes"It supposedly would have blasted the existing world record out of the water.It was hanging at Ft.Steele but I haven`t seen it .Any info or pics from you guys?I would love to see it with my own eyes.

[bigwhiteys]

Kinda in the same topic.does any one remember the monster that was poached by a guy at the feeding station around Salmo about 10 years ago?A semi native guy shot it with crossbow in mid-winter and tried to say it was for "cerimonial purposes"It supposedly would have blasted the existing world record out of the water.It was hanging at Ft.Steele but I haven`t seen it .Any info or pics from you guys?I would love to see it with my own eyes.


Isn't this the ram that is bronzed in Salmo?

Carl

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Yep. That's the Salmo Ram. I believe it went around 200" or so.

SSS

[bigwhiteys]

Here you go Sawmill.

http://www.bchuntingblog.com/mypics/salmoram.jpg

And here's one of the Chadwick Ram as well. Both were completed by the same sculptor.

http://www.bchuntingblog.com/mypics/chadwickbronze.jpghttp://www.bchuntingblog.com/mypics/chadwickzoom.jpg Wow...

Happy Hunting!
Carl

[BCrams]

Carl has a good reason to like that Chadwick statue!!

Not many people can say their grandfathers name is listed on that plaque!

[bigwhiteys]

Yep... Along with a few friends and hunting partners as well. Some no longer with us :(

Carl

[mainland hunter]

hope they catch this guy and make a real example of him, like others said all poaching sucks but when its a sheep they need to make the penalty severe. There's alot of people who want horns on their wall at all cost. when that causes incedents like this that cost better be jailtime and fines

[elkguide]

I have a hard time believing that with how hard we have worked to improve our sheep numbers that Idiots like this could exist. A sheep hunt is a right of passage for most hunters, With lots of hard work usually involved in the harvest of your ram. If caught I think just taking away firearm and hunting privelages isn't enough. Let the rest of us who work hard, ethically and legally punish them. The herd we have south of Quesnel has some good rams in it and If I'm not correct a few of them have been poached also.

[mcrae]

Thats a shame it really bugs me that there are people out there that do this crap. I am not a sheep hunter but even I can see its a nice ram wasted by a bunch of dickhead poachers.:mad:

[sealevel]

How many US dollars is that ram worth ?

[WoodOx]

The 200 class? I would guess a million +.

Bigwhiteys - nice ram inyour avatar - A Cali or a Rocky?

[bigwhiteys]

AGaucher,

That ram is actually a Stone.

Happy Hunting!
Carl

[WoodOx]

Aye, thanks - he looked more brown to me, but its clear now that I really look at it.

nice ram!

[boxhitch]

How many US dollars is that ram worth ?
Rumours say there is a market for trophys. I bet thats why this head was poached. Some people will steel anything they figure is worth a few bucks. No legitimate taxidermist would have a ram on his premisess without the proper documentation, nor could a set of horns be poccessed without being CI'ed and plugged. Someone thought they had an easy score, and without the connections , I bet this trophy winds up in the Fraser.

[stixnstones]

i hope the assholes should get hung and shot for this.i will if find them.let me know any other info that comes this threads way.goodluck to the co s and everybody involved.

[hunter1947]

I don't now how they will ever get the head mount done???. They might have the nolage to do the head mount them selfs ????. They might try and sell it to a nother part of the country ????. It is a shame that there are idiots out there that do this kind of thing :evil: i hope they get these basterds. hunter 1947.

[sawmill]

They could sell them to some guy from Texas ,as a matter of fact they probably had a buyer lined up before they shot it.Easy a pie to smuggle it out on a private plane from a local strip amd once it hits the States POOF,it`s hanging in some asshole trophy room next to his elephant tusks.

[mark]

They could sell them to some guy from Texas ,as a matter of fact they probably had a buyer lined up before they shot it.Easy a pie to smuggle it out on a private plane from a local strip amd once it hits the States POOF,it`s hanging in some asshole trophy room next to his elephant tusks.

Dont know if it would be easy as pie! Small planes have to clear customs too when they land. The customs guys would probably think something is fishy if there was a rams head in there. If you have a way to get down there without being checked by customs, then you midas well haul some drugs and make some real money.

What if a hunter were to take a ram legally here in BC, then do a horn switcharoo. Would a guy get away with it that way?

[Islandeer]

Seems possible Mark, though the DNA of the cape and the head wouldn't match.

[WoodOx]

For starters there are lots of ways to get accross the border without customs - Grand Forks lies RIGHT on the line, just hike in and have someone meet you.

There is no waythat if you got caught in the states with the paper work for a legally taken ram, that they would say "Lets check the DNA"

[mark]

[quote=agaucher]For starters there are lots of ways to get accross the border without customs - Grand Forks lies RIGHT on the line, just hike in and have someone meet you.

Gee Andrew, I bet the drug runners, and border cops have never thought of that one! That would work everytime :smile:

[Will]

I doubt the Ram was the Victim of a well thought out Plan to Poach a Ram head and sell it on the blackmarket:roll:

I'll bet anything that after the Losers realize what they've done.....it'll end up in a Dumpster:-(

[WoodOx]

Couple years back (maybe 5ish) there was an illegal immigrant bust there, smuggling people over in a van.

Authorities said it happens all the time at that crossing, and as such I wouldnt guess they protect it that much.

ive hunted the border in Grand Forks, and unless the border guards are ultra stealth, I aint seen any in the bush.

[bigwhiteys]

The ram could very well have already been sold before they pulled the trigger. It's nothing for someone to take a digital picture and send it off to a potential buyer. "This One?"

There ARE collectors all over the world who would buy.

I can't see it as an accident or some stupid act as the farmer found the whole ram, came back and the head was cut off. They WANTED the head.

Happy Hunting!
Carl

[Stone Sheep Steve]

There's no way they had time to properly cape out the ram so they'll be needing a cape. However, not all people looking for a Cali cape are poachers:roll: .

SSS

[frenchbar]

I sure hope they catch these P---ks,i spoke with Bob yesterday and hes been working hard following up tips hes recieved so far, so keep your ears open,if you hear of anything he would appreciate your call, hopefully the culprits screw up and we nail their sorry asses!!

[rollingrock]

I saw a herd around 70 mile house earlier this year. Could that be the same herd?

[elkguide]

just the cost for an alien to hunt him av. about $14,000(us), but if an animal like that was sold black market ...who knows what someone would pay.

[elkguide]

now even more than some a******hole, poachin that ram , that p****ses me off more, what a waste. But your most likely right.

[hunter1947]

Dont know if it would be easy as pie! Small planes have to clear customs too when they land. The customs guys would probably think something is fishy if there was a rams head in there. If you have a way to get down there without being checked by customs, then you midas well haul some drugs and make some real money.

What if a hunter were to take a ram legally here in BC, then do a horn switcharoo. Would a guy get away with it that way? Mark would'ent you think there would be less concern on an animal that was smuggled in from a different country ,and if you had someone lined up to do the head mount undercover they might not ever find out ???http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon5.gif??. Where i hunt up in cranbrook i have driven to a dead end road that ends right on the usa boarder ,hunter1947.

[elkguide]

Dont know if it would be easy as pie! Small planes have to clear customs too when they land. The customs guys would probably think something is fishy if there was a rams head in there. If you have a way to get down there without being checked by customs, then you midas well haul some drugs and make some real money.

What if a hunter were to take a ram legally here in BC, then do a horn switcharoo. Would a guy get away with it that way? Mark, after a ram has been harvested it has to be inspected and plugged, there is no way a taxidermist ( least not any I know ) would do that for anyone.

[frenchbar]

hopefully with the 2500 members of this site spead out in various towns and citys,somebody will hear something,if there was more than one doing the illeagal act the chances will get a lot better that they catch them.people like that useually cant keep their mouths shut and eventually a name will surface ,well heres to hopeing,man i hope they catch theese losers:mad:

[Stone Sheep Steve]

just the cost for an alien to hunt him av. about $14,000(us), but if an animal like that was sold black market ...who knows what someone would pay.
Cali hunts go for more in the neighbourhood of $25,000US. That's just for the opportunity to harvest a typical ram. This ram looks like he'd be in the 170" class. That price doesn't usually correspond to what someone would pay for a legal mount. If a mount was legally sold it would be more in the $5 grand range(max). There was a 170+" life size cali for sale a couple of years ago in the tack shop in Kamloops and I think the asking price was in the $3500 range. Most life sizes mounts almost cost that to mount.

SSS

[bigwhiteys]

If a mount was legally sold it would be more in the $5 grand range(max).

I saw a grand slam (4 shoulder mounts) go on eBay a few years ago for in excess of $100,000. It was in the 700" class mind you.

My grandpas 46" Stone went for more then $5000 and this was in the 80's!
http://www.bchuntingblog.com/mypics/46stone.jpg

It's all in the eye of the beholder... And what they are willing to pay.

Happy Hunting!
Carl

[mainland hunter]

ive heard of some ram mounts selling for closer to 10k

[mainland hunter]

man thats a beauty sheep your grandpa got there BW

[Stone Sheep Steve]

We're talking about an "illegal" 170" cali. How many legal ones do you like that shot just this year alone? They are rare but not that rare. How many 46" stones get shot every year? Not many.
The auctioned G/S that you mentioned was no doubt legal and very rare indeed. It would have attracted the biggest collecters.
If it was a B&C bighorn I could see it going for a lot more. Being a Cail there is no special category in the B&C so it goes up against the rockies. Beautiful Cali but if it was a Rocky it would just be "very nice".

My guess is that the poachers are young and "thrill seeking junkies" just like shop lifters. They do it just to see if they can get away with it. Boxhitch is probably right..it'll most likely end up in the Frazer.

SSS

[frenchbar]

My guess is its sittin in a freezer some where while they figure out what the hell to do with it,but your probably right on sss that it will probably end up getting turfed somewhere,or they will just keep the horns,pissin me off just thinkin about it.

[brno375]

My grandpas 46" Stone

Very nice. I think my heart would skip a beat if I came across one like that in the mountains.

[bigwhiteys]

It was killed in an avalanche.

Carl

[boxhitch]

I may be wrong, but I believe all sheep are to be CI'ed and plugged, in the US and Canada. (Worldwide ???) If someone is caught with an illegal trophy south of the border, the prosecution makes our enforcement look like a time out in the corner. They are tough down there.

[elkguide]

I saw a grand slam (4 shoulder mounts) go on eBay a few years ago for in excess of $100,000. It was in the 700" class mind you.

My grandpas 46" Stone went for more then $5000 and this was in the 80's!
http://www.bchuntingblog.com/mypics/46stone.jpg

It's all in the eye of the beholder... And what they are willing to pay.

Happy Hunting!
Carl I can't believe a guy would sell that ram wow He's huge (I'd become Charelton Heston " from my cold dead hands") if I had a ram like that.

[RiverOtter]

I hope they catch the culls that did this and use it to set an example for other would be poachers.

As to the border smuggling angle. I watched a program a couple years back on the Canada/US border and how it was managed; The Montana/Idaho/Washington portion in particular. The focus of the program was drug running via backpack/mountain bike etc. They showed a lot of remote areas that were thought to be "easy access" areas, where the border could be breached. They then went on to show motion detector systems, video surveylance, foot patrols, real time satelite imagery and FLIR planes. I know they can't control every inch of the border all the time if someone is determined to cross, but they sure as heck ain't sitting back and turning a blind eye either. After watching the program, I wasn't left with a feeling of overwhelming confidence at a persons chances of crossing without detection.

RO

[elkguide]

[quote=Stone Sheep Steve]Cali hunts go for more in the neighbourhood of $25,000US. That's just for the opportunity to harvest a typical ram. This ram looks like he'd be in the 170" class. That price doesn't usually correspond to what someone would pay for a legal mount. If a mount was legally sold it would be more in the $5 grand range(max). There was a 170+" life size cali for sale a couple of years ago in the tack shop in Kamloops and I think the asking price was in the $3500 range. Most life sizes mounts almost cost that to mount.

SSS[/quot ya I guess they would be more than a stone hunt ( some guys I know are charging $18,000 plus for a stone.) e]

[bigwhiteys]

I can't believe a guy would sell that ram wow He's huge (I'd become Charelton Heston " from my cold dead hands") if I had a ram like that.

I don't know why he sold it... He'll be here in a few days I'll ask. This ram was found in the same general area that the chadwick ram was taken.

Happy Hunting!
Carl

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I guess they would be more than a stone hunt ( some guys I know are charging $18,000 plus for a stone.) e]
In some areas Stones are now going in the $25000-30000 US range. Reduced quotas have pushed the prices up.

SSS

[3kills]

I hope they catch the culls that did this and use it to set an example for other would be poachers.

As to the border smuggling angle. I watched a program a couple years back on the Canada/US border and how it was managed; The Montana/Idaho/Washington portion in particular. The focus of the program was drug running via backpack/mountain bike etc. They showed a lot of remote areas that were thought to be "easy access" areas, where the border could be breached. They then went on to show motion detector systems, video surveylance, foot patrols, real time satelite imagery and FLIR planes. I know they can't control every inch of the border all the time if someone is determined to cross, but they sure as heck ain't sitting back and turning a blind eye either. After watching the program, I wasn't left with a feeling of overwhelming confidence at a persons chances of crossing without detection.

RO

river otter i was talkin to some one that lives close to the border in a remote area where u would think it would be easy to just walk across with what ever u wanted...and they told me that in the winter time they have border patrol out there in snow camo...

[sawmill]

Clean `em up good,wrap them well in plastic,box `em and mail them.

[Timbow]

In some areas Stones are now going in the $25000-30000 US range. Reduced quotas have pushed the prices up.

SSS

Expect the rates to go up for non-resident hunters with an anticipated reduction in the outfitters quota. The current rate for one outfitter is $27,000 US. And they are still lining up!

[bigwhiteys]

Expect the rates to go up for non-resident hunters with an anticipated reduction in the outfitters quota.

The price may go even higher as some outfitters recently have taken young rams due to inexperienced guides or other circumstances.

shooting young rams reduces an outfitters quota as it rightfully should.

Happy Hunting!
Carl

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I know of one outfitter that recently changed his pricing due to the high costs. $15,000 for the hunt and a $15000 trophy fee when they get a ram. Kinda makes you want to hold out for a pretty damn good one.

SSS

[bigwhiteys]

I know of one outfitter that recently changed his pricing due to the high costs. $15,000 for the hunt and a $15000 trophy fee when they get a ram. Kinda makes you want to hold out for a pretty damn good one.

Many outfitters have gone to the trophy fee structure. I know my grandparents switched towards the end of their outfitting days. Sheep hunts were going for $18,000 USD at that time.

The 46" stone I posted was sold for $35,000 USD in the early 80's. It now resides at a museum in California. It was picked up along a river in BC my Grandpa then had it lifesized.

Happy Hunting!
Carl

[Silent Wolf]

Poachers make me sick......

I love what they do in Affrica if you get caught poaching they shoot you on the spot no questions asked.

POACHING HURTS ALL OF US........

HANG THE B@$t@RD$ BY THERE NUTTS AND USE THEM AS A PUNCHING BAG.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

S/W-Don't hold back. Tell us what you really think:lol: !!

SSS