Any buck season?

[DropTines]

I, myself do not agree with any buck season because, I think it has brought down the deer numbers in many area, I do believe that a junior hunter might want to take the first buck they see in a season and I can s why. I felt so myself, and I can also see a guy taking any buck becaue he doesn't have much time to hunt and needs some meat in the freezer. But what do I know I'm still young. What're you're thoughts, this is also for a project I am doing at school about Hunting Licenses and seasons, so if you have any other opinions be sure to share them, thanks guys!
________
Volcano digital (http://www.vaporshop.com/volcano-vaporizer.html)

[WoodOx]

I am partial to trophy hunting, so of course I will agree that all deer seasons should be changed to 4 point or better, for both whitetail and mule deer species.

That being said, I think seasons must be available to meat and junior hunters. So basically, I agree with you.

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

I would like to know where the any buck season has brought down the total deer population in any area?I have personally seen more deer in the last 3 years then I have ever seen,and if you talk about trophy numbers just look at all the trophy bucks taken,predation and harsh winters take there toll on deer,if you take the fact that probably 70 percent of hunters do so for meat ,and you take away there season then you will have alot less hunters,the late any buck season in the rut could change in some areas but other wise leave it alone.Unless you shoot a monster buck does it really matter to you if it has 2 or 3 or small 4 points on it.

[ruttinbuck]

You take away the any buck hunters and there is'nt enough money in selling a few trophy hunters tags.Soon the government would'nt have hunting sesons as the cost out weighs the benefits.
This is'nt about your hunting or wildlife management when it comes to a liberal goverment its about making money as much and as fast as they can.RB

[RiverOtter]

When it comes to Mule deer in region 8, I definately think they could do away with the little buck season. I noticed a big difference in mulie numbers within a couple years of the short little buck season. A few more bucks reaching sexual maturity = less empty does(That's my thoughts anyway). As was stated by RB, I too beleive there would be a sharp decline in Mulie tag sales, if not for little buck season.

As per whitetail in region 8, I think we could use a doe season, even if it were limited to private land. They are way over populated in many areas.

RO

[DropTines]

Alright thanks, is there any other opinions on season changes or shorter or longer seasons
________
Valkyrie (http://www.honda-wiki.org/wiki/Honda_Valkyrie)

[GoatGuy]

Here you go Drop Tines good luck on your project.


4.8 RQ6 What is the perception of hunting opportunities and trophy seasons in the Okanagan?In the hunter survey, "[o]pen seasons changing to limited entry" was considered the most discouraging factor relating to hunting seasons and opportunities; 71% of respondents indicated it was somewhat or extremely discouraging (Appendix 17). In the focus groups participants discussed the "annual trip," years vested in hunting locales and the resulting break up of hunting parties due to the LEH regulations. Hunters seem to be high fidelity creatures: some of the respondents indicated they had hunted in the same area since they were youth only to have it shutdown due to LEH. This affects both the opportunity to obtain game meat and the social aspects of hunting.

Four distinct types of hunters, with different expectations and goals, were identified in the focus group; these types were examined in the hunter surveys. According to Appendix 18, the four different types of hunters are: Meat hunters (37%), meat, then selective (41%), selective (18%) and trophy hunters (3%).

Meat and meat, then selective hunters often expressed difficulty in finding legal game and indicated that 4 point Mule Deer, 6 point Bull Elk and sometimes 2 point Bull Moose seasons, were extremely frustrating and decreased their participation.

These trophy seasons were likened to a cost/benefit analysis much as in business. When asked: What deters you from hunting? One respondent indicated: "Mostly the odds. Would likely hunt more but basically have a ‘realistic’ attitude about my chances of finding a ‘qualified’ specimen." These sentiments were echoed in several surveys. Conversely, selective and trophy hunters expressed little to no difficulty in finding legal game. It should be noted that comments supported changing seasons if it was in the best interests of animal populations. See Appendix 19 for a comparison between types of hunters and difficulty in finding game

The hunter harvest surveys are another source of data regarding participation; the surveys are mailed out at the end of each hunting season to determine participation and harvest success. A mailed questionnaire is sent to approximately 60,000 hunters each year; after a second mail-out the return rate is usually between 70%-80% (BC MOE, 2003, P.2). These surveys are sent to hunters throughout the Province.


4.8.3 Mule & White-tailed DeerThese two species are considered somewhat complimentary, depending on the part of the region, as they can both be hunted at the same time and hunting seasons usually coincide. As shown in Figure 4.4 from 1987 to 1997 the hunters per management unit averaged 35.5% more Mule Deer hunters than White-tailed deer hunters annually. This is despite longer White-tailed Deer seasons and a limit of two White-tailed bucks (in some MUs) as opposed to one Mule buck throughout the region. In 1998, there is a significant decrease in Mule Deer hunters and a slight increase in White-tailed Deer hunters; this coincides with an implementation of 4 point Mule Deer during the majority of the hunting season. From 1998 to 2004 the number of Mule Deer hunters averaged 5.2% more hunters annually than White-tailed Deer hunters. This suggests that point or antler restrictions may have an effect on participation.

Results of the hunter survey also demonstrate 50% of respondents find antler restrictions, and 40% found the number of legal animals somewhat or extremely discouraging. Furthermore, Mule Deer are 48% of hunters’ number 1 choice to hunt, whereas only 36% of hunters indicated White-tailed Deer were their number 1 choice (Appendix 20 and Appendix 21).




5.3.2 ManagementWhile it was very apparent that hunters support wildlife managements’ decisions to ensure the future of animal populations there is conflicting direction between hunting seasons and hunters’ desires. Deterrents relating to seasons must be addressed; very distinct user groups have been identified with very different needs. As demonstrated in chapter 2 a lack of game and restrictions are significant deterrents for past hunting in the US. This appears even more prevalent in the Okanagan than in the US.


As indicated in the BC MOE’s hunter satisfaction survey the greatest motivation for hunters is meat; this is however, significantly different from results in the US. Meat hunters often find it extremely difficult to find 4 point Mule Deer Bucks, immature Bull Moose and 6 point Bull Elk. Another point of interest is hunter participation with Whitetail Deer. This species is relatively new to the Okanagan and requires significantly different hunting methods to ensure harvest (BC MOE, 2005d). The lack of participation may be due in part to the high fidelity of hunters methods and areas and requires further study.

[Fisher-Dude]

Lots of people have their opinion on the any buck season and say it is affecting the large buck populations, but none of them can provide a link to a scientific study that shows that recruitment of smaller bucks enhances the population of larger bucks.

I think the argument can be made, especially in one deer limit areas like Region 8, that a bigger deer is saved because a guy tags out on a 2 point for the freezer in October. In that theory, there should be a healthy population of bigger deer. That's what I'm seeing with some of the beauties the guys are taking in this region, and across the province, the past few years. This year, the weather buggered up the latter part of the muley season in 8 and 5, so people think there are no deer around.

I agree with Ruttinbuck, more restrictions will kill hunter numbers. We need to increase the numbers or face the loss of our sport.

[mapguy]

we will have to make changes to hunting if we want to keep hunting here on the island. I hunt an area about of about 10 square miles.There' a couple of hundred deer in my spot . Ninety percent does so that means theres about twenty bucks. it's easy to see that it wouldn't take long to shoot all the bucks.What we need is 2 pts or better as a minumin province wide no need to shoot spikers. Just by having to check points you have more bucks escaping so it will bring back the numbers. It also makes for better hunters as they build there skills instead of just jumping out of a truck and blasting anything with horns.There are far to many spikers shot
as meat bucks I challenge anyone to show me any amount of meat on a spike .Thats just a bad or frustrated hunter.

[mapguy]

Most trophy bucks are in hard to reach places and the guys who get them work for them

[Gateholio]

Most hunters want to go out, sit arond a fire, BS with thier buddies and shoot any deer and maybe get a moose if they are lucky...

Those guys buy the majority of the licences.8-)

[ratherbefishin]

I think it depends on populations and buck-doe ratio's.Maybe some areas need more does harvested-while another areas might need to limit bucks to forks or better.I read somewhere that 70% of the bucks taken were spikes-and maybe leaving them another year would result in about the same number of bucks take after a couple of years-only bigger.You'd have to know mortality figures[winter kill,predation,disease etc] from causes to come up with a better idea

[oldtimer]

John England--- As a senior with just me and the wife at home and she only likes certain cuts of venison a nice spiker is just about perfect , maybe even two of them. A nice size spiker if I remember correctly can give you 50 pounds in the freezer. Combine that with a moose and a bear and me and the missus are set.
Remember any deer with a bow is a "Trophy" Mike

[Islandeer]

John you are a little out on your buck doe percentage, more like 20 to 30 % bucks. Of which 40 t0 60% are young bucks,say 20 to 30% are 3 to 5 yrs old, which leaves you with about 5 % of trophy class. Give or take a few.

It is a proven wildlife management ideal that a harvest that is spread out over all of the age classes and sexes is most benificial to a group of deer. Obviosly mortality from predation and winters are also factored in. Remember that in most cases trophy animals don't survive much past their prime. I like killing large animals with good headbones too, but restricting seasons to 4pt only restricts the vast majority from enjoying success. We can't all go to where the big boys hang out. As far as 4pt whitey seasons,forget it!!!!! Those things in our province can not be overhunted. They spread like the plague!!! The only thing that wipes them out is weather and disease. Wolves pound them a bit, but they survive. Chew on this, population goes way up,still restricted harvests, killer winter,all those deer that could have been bringing and keeping people hunting will be gone.

As has been stated before the future of hunting is in numbers. 4pt seasons restrict hunter harvests and therefore hunter numbers. The big bucks will always be out there,strap on your packboard and start hiking.

[Will]

Most hunters want to go out, sit arond a fire, BS with thier buddies and shoot any deer and maybe get a moose if they are lucky...

Those guys buy the majority of the licences.8-)
Exactly and with the Early "Any Buck" season here it's just that Much less Hunters out chasing Muleys when the Rut hits;-)

The any Buck season also gets rid of those Generic Monster 3 Pointers you hate seeing during the 4 point or better season too:lol:

[Nooker77]

To me its about choice...and being able to have one!! If I want to shoot a small buck for my freezer then I should have a season to do it..if I hold out for Mr bIg and the freezers empty then hey..thats MY choice!! The more choices and options we lose...we will not get them back...as for LEH..I'm sure the majority of guides would love it as there allocations would sky rocket!! lol Sorry guides had to take my shot!! I believe our deer pops are healthy and theres nothing wrong with shootin that little spike...I'd rather the does get bread by a better and stronger gene pool anyway!! As for "empty" does I maybe seen 3 dry does all season....and I see alot of deer every year!! I think the whity ratio is a little more out of wack in my neck of the woods and I do think they could have a doe only rifle season(very short)...as long it was based on the science of what would be healthy for every region!! As it is there are alot of LEH doe draws out there but they seem to get used up on farmers fields instead of the bush!! Not that theres anything wrong with that!! lol Just my 2 cents worth...good luck with the report!!

[hunter1947]

Any buck for a junior. And a 3 point or better on deer for adlts for the intire hunting season hear on the island ,intill the population gets to a healty number again i did a reserch 10 years ago and there used to be two hundread and fifty thousand deer hear on the island in the late 70ties and it got to a low number of 50 thousand in the early 90ties. The deer population is starting to come back slowley in the past few years hear on the island and why is because the number of wolfs have depleted in the last few years ,but we still have a proublum with cats and bears. hunter 1947.

[elkguide]

that is so true... no pain no gain.. that's what makes hunting such a great sport......nothing is a given.

[Seeadler]

It is hard to say what the answer(s) are.

I am in favour of "Any Deer" tags for junior hunters, nothing like success to encourage people. And regardless of what people will say about possible missuse of these tags, bottom line is we need more hunters.

Also, for Mule Deer, in Region 4 where I hunt, I would like to see a return to "any buck" for the Sept 10-Oct 31, then "4 point" for the rest of the season. Or, if the 4 point season stays the same, there should be some "any buck" LEH tags available to try to balance the harvest of bucks without letting things get out of hand during the rut. Or, if they go back to the "any buck" season, there should be some road closures, maybe alternating year by year.

Whitetails in Region 4 could probably stand a week or two "any deer" season as they are like flies and there seems to be very few bucks compared to the number of does.

An arguement could be made that "any buck" seasons take the pressure off of the big bucks as those than want meat can get there buck and get out of the bush before they run into a big buck.

But, like I said, hard to know what the answer is. Personally, I tend to hunt whitetail for meat and muleys for a decent rack and I have no interest in shooting a spike or forky mule deer, unless it is a really big two point, like one that I saw this season that had deep forks and palmated antlers and was probably 22-24 inches wide.

[Islandeer]

I forgot to add one interesting thing: in The area in the East Kootenay where we hunt over the last 16 yrs since they brought in the 4pt rule there has been an incredible high occurance of 3pt bucks. All sizes,some of trophy calibre. Seems that all of the genetically challenged 3pts are doing all the breeding, guess what fewer and fewer 4pts. And so the few 4pts left are shot as they appear in November, I saw 22 bucks and 9 3pts, in two days hiking, and NO 4pts. The 4pt rule serves a purpose in the short term but skews things over time.

[5/10/85]

I think you'll find that the seasons generally concur with the amount of hunters ratio to the amount of deer out there. The province does a pretty good job of research on how many deer are in an area, and in some cases need to REDUCE the amount of deer in a particular area, otherwise the population will become unhealthy. I know they're government, and that usually means they ALWAYS do a crappy job, but I think we should cut them some slack - I've taken three bucks off sumas mnt in the last few years (in Reg 2 it's any buck), and there are still TONS of bucks up there.

[Seeadler]

I forgot to add one interesting thing: in The area in the East Kootenay where we hunt over the last 16 yrs since they brought in the 4pt rule there has been an incredible high occurance of 3pt bucks. All sizes,some of trophy calibre. Seems that all of the genetically challenged 3pts are doing all the breeding, guess what fewer and fewer 4pts. And so the few 4pts left are shot as they appear in November, I saw 22 bucks and 9 3pts, in two days hiking, and NO 4pts. The 4pt rule serves a purpose in the short term but skews things over time.

Has it been 16 years???? I didn't think it was that long, maybe since they went to Nov 1-15 four point or greater. But the general four point season hasn't been around that long.

I do not believe that 16 years (if it has been that long) is enough to genetically alter a herd to predominately 3 points. There are also large "reservoirs" that don't see any pressure due to steepness, or thickness, or poor access.

Remember that in the mid 90's the East Kootenay Mule Deer herds were HAMMERED by the winters. Then there was drought from '97 til '04. I think the big 3 points that are being seen are actually young deer that have had the advantages of mothers being in good condition while pregnant (winter '05) or where born in the spring of '04 which is when the rains came back (late May of '04 the clouds opened up). And since then there has been good rains in '04, 5, and 6 combined with mild winters. Talk to a taxidermist in the area, they will confirm that the size has been going up the last couple of years. Or talk to a farmer and ask about moisture.

This year I did not see a single spike mule deer, I think conditions have been so good that they are all 2 points minimum.

There are not nearly the number of Mule Deer in southeastern BC that there were 20-30 years ago. On the flip side there are far more elk than there used to be.

I think that baring a hard winter and if the rains keep up, there are going to be some monsters coming out of SE BC in the next few years.

[GoatGuy]

I forgot to add one interesting thing: in The area in the East Kootenay where we hunt over the last 16 yrs since they brought in the 4pt rule there has been an incredible high occurance of 3pt bucks. All sizes,some of trophy calibre. Seems that all of the genetically challenged 3pts are doing all the breeding, guess what fewer and fewer 4pts. And so the few 4pts left are shot as they appear in November, I saw 22 bucks and 9 3pts, in two days hiking, and NO 4pts. The 4pt rule serves a purpose in the short term but skews things over time.

My experience has been a bit different. The days I hunted region 4 this year I saw 30-40 4 pts or better; a couple were 4X3s but no 3 points - did see one whopper 2 pt. In our Nov hunt everyone could have shot a handfull of 4 points and everyone who wanted a meat 4 pt shot one the last day. Not a single 3pt. spotted all season! As a matter of fact I don't think I've seen a 3 pt there scouting or hunting. A couple of small 3x4s that would be tough to call in the bush but that's about it. Must be hunting a different local! :smile:

I've heard this argument about 5pt elk taking over the world too but it seems to me that genes come from both the buck and the doe. :lol:

Just my observations

[hunter1947]

My experience has been a bit different. The days I hunted region 4 this year I saw 30-40 4 pts or better; a couple were 4X3s but no 3 points - did see one whopper 2 pt. In our Nov hunt everyone could have shot a handfull of 4 points and everyone who wanted a meat 4 pt shot one the last day. Not a single 3pt. spotted all season! As a matter of fact I don't think I've seen a 3 pt there scouting or hunting. A couple of small 3x4s that would be tough to call in the bush but that's about it. Must be hunting a different local! :smile:

I've heard this argument about 5pt elk taking over the world too but it seems to me that genes come from both the buck and the doe. :lol:

Just my observations This issue all boils down to were your hunting an area. and if it is true that there are to many that are carring the same head gear ,well then the wildlife branch should open the season on reducing a few on any breed. The main thing to do is when the population of animals get down is to get them back up in numbers and then deal with this issue. A friend of mine said from cranbrook name is Dallas Hills ,said that point restricktions don't work ??????????????????,he has been trying to put this point throug for years up there in the cranbrook area. I wounder if he is right ?????????????????????hunter 1947.

[Islandeer]

In 1990 I shot a big 3pt on November 11, and passed on 2 smaller 4pts. Yes the area I hunt is pounded pretty hard, good point, probably why we keep seeing so many 3pts, lol, I disagee on the genetic angle though. Damn, 40 4pts in the east Koots?? I am with you on the tough terrain "resevoirs" and this year we saw a ton of healthy forks, and no spikes, so things are improving. It will be tough to bring back the good old days as the prime winter range is either farmed, built up, or grown up. Good points fellahs, maybe it's time to go a little further back.

[yellowlab]

just remmber guys ,you keep shooting off the inmature bucks (dummy bucks) in the end you'll have have no big bucks.who ever said that the long any buck season :twisted: was a money grab by the liberal goverment, never spoke truer words.

[GoatGuy]

just remmber guys ,you keep shooting off the inmature bucks (dummy bucks) in the end you'll have have no big bucks.who ever said that the long any buck season :twisted: was a money grab by the liberal goverment, never spoke truer words.

Huh??? Money grab?

[Fisher-Dude]

just remmber guys ,you keep shooting off the inmature bucks (dummy bucks) in the end you'll have have no big bucks.who ever said that the long any buck season :twisted: was a money grab by the liberal goverment, never spoke truer words.

Lab, do you have any scientific evidence that shooting small bucks will wipe out the large bucks? I'm interested in finding a study that supports the recruitment theory for deer. As of yet, I haven't seen one.

Also, how is a longer any buck season a money grab? Do you have any statistics that would show that the government brings in more money with a longer any buck season? I would like to see where there is evidence of increased tag sales that offsets the increased management costs that may be associated with what some feel is increased hunting pressure. Has this study been done? Thanks!

[Islandeer]

A passing thought; wouldn't it be better for more 4pt carryover if hunters tagged out earlier on "any buck" ? Especially late in the season when weather can force more 4pt's down.

[dana]

Fisherdude,
It is a simple fact that shooting a crapload of little bucks means that you aren't going to have much recruitment for big bucks. Big bucks were once little bucks. Age is the factor. If you need studies to see this, then look south to Utah.They are experiencing the results of heavy young buck harvest right now. The big bucks that are killed come out of LEH trophy units. Meaning, units that allow the little bucks to grow up into big bucks.
I have personally seen areas where there are a ton of little guys harvested each year. Heck, the road system behind my house sees 100 or so killed each year. Every once in a few years, one decent 180 buck gets taken there. In 15 years of shed hunting there with over 700 sheds picked up in that area, I have only picked up sheds off of a handful of actual 'shooter' bucks in my book (180-200 inchers). I am seeing on a small scale the effects of over harvest of little bucks. Those little guys have great genes. Heck not that hard to kill a yearling basket racked 4x4 on that hill. But too find a buck that makes you drool, you better not bother hunting that mountain, cause it ain't gonna happen. This is a 4 point of better area in Nov. Could you imagine the slaughter of the little guys if they opened it up to 'any buck' in Nov like they've done in Region 5?
As for those that somehow think 4 point or better seasons shoot out the good genetics, well I ain't seen that here in Region 3 and we've had 4 point or better seasons for 15 years.

[dana]

The open general seasons are great for those that want to get out and get some meat. Where I have a problem is the opening of them during the critical time when those young bucks are the most vulernable, the rut. The big boys haver er all figured out. They know where it is not safe to be out in the open. The little guys are so horned up thinking that maybe, just maybe they might get laid, that they are chasing does in brood daylight without a brain in their heads. the question I have is, how much time do you really need to kill a meat buck? Are hunters that lame in this province that they can't get er done in the 2 months they had in Region 5? Do they really need another 20 days into the rut in Nov?

[Islandeer]

That's a good point to bring up with the Biologists in Region 4, where they have the 4pt season all season long. Who benifits from that? Local hunters who want more big 4pts, that's who.

[ruttinbuck]

I have had quite lengthy discussions on the late any buck season with a MOE biologist in Williams Lake in regards to the lengthening of the reg 5 any buck season back into Nov again.I have been hunting for the last 23-24yrs all here in BC.I have been hunting in reg 5 off and on over that time and have been going there annually for deer hunting for the last 7 yrs.
The logic the Cariboo bio. seem to take into the arguement for the late any buck hunt seems to be the direct opposite of which the Kamloops bio. take in their deer management strategy for reg 3.Kamloops has left the 4pt or better season in Nov in place now from 1992 IIRC til present day,Kamloops claims you have to protect the younger bucks to promote and grow larger mature bucks.
Cariboo bio. went to the 4pt season in Nov for 5 yrs 2000-2004 and now of course are back to the late any buck season.Cariboo bio. claims by shooting more little bucks you make room for larger ones to live and survive.
Take any given region,lets say 5-01.There is in an 10 sq.km area in 5-01 holding 100 deer,75 does&fawns,20 bucks split between yearlings and 2yr old bucks and 5 big 4X3 or better tined bucks.If you open this area up to any buck season you get 30 hunters out they kill 15 of your little bucks and 2 of your mature bucks roughly 50-55% of your bucks {MOE success numbers}.This happens with some guys skill but sheer hunter numbers get lots of bucks every year as they escape one hunter just to run into another.
Now if the season opened was 4pt or better you might get 12 hunters out as many won't hunt when they have to count tines,12 hunters might shoot 2 of your mature bucks and maybe 5 of your little bucks that are basket or very small racked 4pts 32%+/- success rates.This leaves many young bucks every year to grow into prime breeders,it may take longer but your herd will be alot stronger in 10yrs genetically and more mature than young bucks breeding.
There are alot of deer car collisions all winter in some parts of reg 5.The MOE answer to this was to put out alot more antlerless LEH permits It will be interesting just how amny more antlerless deer were shot this season.Part of the reason the any buck season was left in place in Nov in reg 5 is because of the collisions happening.Pretty hard to close or shorten seasons when ICBC is paying out huge amounts in claims from wildlife collisions.
We are going backwards IMHO in regards to the deer herds in reg 5.We would be alot further ahead in the long run without any buck seasons in Nov anywhere.If you can't get out and combine an any buck hunt with either a moose or elk hunt then just go deer hunting,I enjoy hunting all deer all season I just think more prime breeders is better for the herd numbers everywhere.RB

[Onesock]

Call me an opportunistic bowhunter go ahead. If the GOS closed on Nov 1 and a bow only was open on Nov 2 way fewer bucks would be killed but the hunting opportunity would still be there. Isn't that what we are after, hunting opportunity. Further to this, if all GOS seasons were closed and we all hunted with bow's think of how many more critters would be out there. We could probably all hunt 6 months a year for anything we wanted. Tonnes of opportunity. Where the hell are the little smiley faces buttons when you need them.

[johnes50]

I subscribe to the Pa.Game News put out by the Pa. Game Commission.

A couple of years ago Pa. went to forks or better, plus they opened up anterless deer hunting because of deer overpopulation. There was a big outcry, but they went ahead with it.

Now hunters are saying it was the best thing that ever happened, They are seeing a lot more bucks and the quaility of the bucks is much better. Pa. has over 1 million hunters and a two week rifle deer season in which they harvest between 350,000 and 500,000 annually out of a population of 1,000,000 to 1,500,000 deer. John

[Onesock]

Right on 2 week rifle deer season!! No smiley guy again!!

[Maxx]

This is a topic I raised some weeks ago, looks like others are starting to see the light!:smile:

Ruttinbucks, and Dana have nailed the points home. Bottom line is though, all the "winers" that claim to be meat hunters will continue to petition for the any buck season. I think that a short doe season to keep them off the Hiway is a start, and the biologists in Region 5 need to move over and learn a few things from the Bio's in Region 3.

[Islandeer]

Hey Maxx, speaking one's opinion does not a WINER make. What about if they had a 3pt or better,or 3pt LEH season. Some of those 3pts will never become 4pts anyways. As far as needing older bucks for breeding, younger bucks can also do the deed. They all have the same genetics. Why not cull more mature 3pts from the herd,then more 4pts could get in on the action. The late 4 pt season is fine with me, not the all season closure though.

[hunter1947]

Like i said earlier you have to have the proper buck to doe ratio for a healthy herd in and species,hunter1947.

[dana]

The one thing I actually don't see the need for is the early 4 point or better season in Region 3. Sept is probably the least hunted month for mule deer in this region. Very very few people take the advantage of the high country to hunt and most meat hunters wait until Oct 1st to start hunting. For those of us that do trophy hunt, it wouldn't hurt us at all if Sept was opened to any buck. Probably wouldn't make a difference in the health of the herd either. As the migration in Oct is the true demise of the young buck here.

[JMac]

I almost gagged when I saw what Ruttin buck was saying about what the Bio's (region 5) reasons for shooting the little bucks was to make room for the big bucks!!! Man we have big country in this province and big winter range in Region 5. I don't buy that theory one bit. Look at the big plateau and fraser river winter ranges (massive country). I highly doubt thinning out the sh*t bucks is gonna help the big bucks find more food and survive! The big bucks know where the best stuff is 24/7 365 days a year and are on top of the deer hierarchy believe me. It's the sh*t bucks (the up and comers) that need protecting not the big boys. Hunters are so useless (yes all of us) when it comes to knocking down real big dominant trophy class bucks. They're older, smarter, and pretty damn elusive regardless of time of year. We hunters are only scratching the surface of what big trophy bucks are out there! Like I said earlier it's the pissers/sh*t bucks that need protection. Hey if a meat hunter wants his/herself or there kid to shoot a small/meat buck fine. There's plenty of opportunity for it in this province in every region and at all times of the season.

[tmarschall]

I use to be from the "OLD SCHOOL"... let spikes mature. I finally found a study which supports my current philosophy which is... the only good spike is a dead spike. Further more, this study shows how point restrictions can bring down the antler quality of the herd. The report is rather technical, but if you scroll down to the pics of the antlers that came from deer that were forked as yearlings and those that were spiked as yearlings... you draw your own conclusion. Here it is...

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/wild/game_management/deer/spikes_not_inferior/

Point restrictions eliminate the possibility of spikes being removed from the population, and the possibility of them developing into legal status is very low.

Here is some more interesting reading for anyone interested....

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/wild/game_management/deer/

[dana]

British Columbia and Texas are only similiar in size, not much else. ;) Whiteys on private land can be managed a certain way. Muleys in the vast wilderness of BC are a total different species. Throw in the mix of our booming wolf and cougar populations and toto, we ain't in texas no more. :) :)

Jmac,
More true monster muleys are killed by lions in this province every year than are harvested by human hunters. Hunters don't even scratch the surface as to what this province holds for Trophy Bucks. There is no doubt who the greatest mule deer hunter in the province is.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/IMG_1508.jpg

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

Bart Lancaster ? :|

[ruttinbuck]

Jmac I think you missed my point.
When bios.have their head in the sand and are being coached to manage for hunter opportunity and nothing else you have to come up with some good tales to sell the guys that want to hear the science and reasoning.I am not against the any buck hunting,I am not of the belief that we need long any buck seasons going into Nov to hunt any buck.
If you must have any buck hunting in Nov you could have an any buck LEH in Nov,hell have it 4pt or better all season and have any buck LEH all season.That generates income and satisfies the any buck hunters.Or have any buck along the highway corridor and leave the wintering grounds 4pt or better.
I am all for hunter opportunity,I just would like to see the areas where the deer are vulnerable to pressure by migration for wintering left to a point restriction.RB

[dana]

BCramps,
You watch it, I could start pokin fun at that little dink buck you killed this year. ;)

[mrdoog]

Oh my goodness, this is like argueing with your Grandma.
End result is those of who choose to take a buck in any buck season are done for season.
Quite happy that we have a buck in the freezer.
If I don't take a buck in the any buck season, then I carry over and change my focus to the 4 point season.
One thing that upsets me about the 4 point season is coming across big 3 points, shot in error, and left for nature to take her path.
As I have mentioned in my previous posts, I have started walking more, and that is the only reason why I got a buck this year. Not a trophy to anyone except the wife and I.

[dana]

I was talking about the adverse effects of shooting dink bucks. Something you should open your ears on. You've got to step up to the plate next year bud, or else you are going to end up with that dishwasher's position. :)

[mrdoog]

Dana, you didn't prompt anything aside from me getting off my arse and walking more!

[Onesock]

Lets not talk about LEH for bucks in the province. We have lost enough of our hunters already. What with LEH's on just about every critter we have, gun registration, and the price of fuel. No one is going to want to hunt here with all the red tape we have to go through.

[dana]

Dinky Dog Rat Deer. Oh wait, that's my opening day buck isn't it. :)

[JMac]

Sounds like you guys need the vacuum cleaner to come up and thin out your wolf problem!

[hunter1947]

Before we can do anything with the deer herds to increase them ,we have to control the predator population . Then set the regs for regions after they find out the doe to buck ratios ,This would depend on how many deer the biologist's say are left out there in the different regions. There might be some areas they might have to close for a few years after controlling the predator population to get the numbers back up. Over hunted areas is another problem ,the length of the hunting season is one more ,allowing the hunt during the rut is another one. If they closed the season for all deer during the rut say from nov first till nov 31 ,then opened it back up on the first of dec for two weeks ,the bucks would have serviced the does without being shot or bothered ,they would impregnate the does and we would have a lot more offspring boron the next year. This would really help in different regions that are low in deer populations. hunter 1947.

[tmarschall]

Dana.... you didn't mention the difference between BC hunters and Texas hunters.... In BC... hunters don't wear a coat untill it gets below 30 degrees. Here the coats come out below 60 degrees!!!!

Yes... we have different hunting conditions,(no wolves and cougars but fords and chevys are doing good as substitutes) but deer biology is a constant. Any deer that exhibits spiked antlers will develop a lower quality rack than a deer that has branched antlers its first year. The report also mentions that spiked deer are NOT inferior deer, they just don't carry big racks. Spiked deer are just as capable of fending off predators as are large antlered deer. Deer use hooves for protection... not antlers. Imlementing hunting restrictions that limit the ability to cull spiked deer(like the 4 point restrictions) are counter to quality antler production.

Speaking of your larger quality deer, after the rut, they are usually more susceptable to predation than lesser quality deer, as the quality deer are run down and are in poorer health because of all the doe chasing they have done. The smaller deer are the ones who have been standing on the sidelines saving their energy. So you have nature and hunters putting heavy pressure on the quality antlered deer.... not the best scenario.

Beleive it or not, Texas does have heavily forested public lands much like the forests of BC. The hunting pressure is very heavy and quality racks have been very hard to come by... in the past at least. A few years ago they implemented regulations that promoted the taking of spiked deer and protected younger branched antlered deer. Harvest dropped the first two years, but now they are way above the previous years harvests and quality is way up as well. More counties are adopting the same regulations as a result.

Protect the dinks if you wish, you will get what you bargain for!

[Fisher-Dude]

Heck not that hard to kill a yearling basket racked 4x4 on that hill. But too find a buck that makes you drool, you better not bother hunting that mountain, cause it ain't gonna happen. This is a 4 point of better area in Nov. Could you imagine the slaughter of the little guys if they opened it up to 'any buck' in Nov like they've done in Region 5?
As for those that somehow think 4 point or better seasons shoot out the good genetics, well I ain't seen that here in Region 3 and we've had 4 point or better seasons for 15 years.

Dana, if we stick with 4 point seasons, the basket 4 bys will get shot too, so I don't think that the point restrictions are making a lot of difference in their particular case. The 4x4 I shot this year in region 5 was probably a 2 1/2 year old buck, therefore antler restrictions don't make a big difference to any guarantees of age class harvesting. Granted, the 2 1/2 year old 2 and 3 points will survive a 4 point season, but what will they produce for bone in their later years? I've shot some 5 and 6 year old deer that were 2 and 3 points. The 2 1/2 year old 4 points probably have the genetics to make big old bucks...however, they will be fair game in a 4 point season, so I fail to see where the antler restriction recruits trophy bucks??

I agree that certain areas shouldn't see a November any buck season if the herd can't support the harvest. That's why we have carved the province up into so many MUs so that we can micro-manage populations. When I was a kid, we had only 6 or 8 "regions" that had the same seasons region-wide (ie like only having 8 MUs for the whole province).

I think the studs that Dana hunts come more from the genetics and remoteness of the area than from the antler restrictions. The dink bucks that are wise enough to elude hunters for a few years should, in theory, survive to be in the older age classes, and pass on smart genetics. However, I'm not sure that brains = antler size in genetics...anyone know of any research in this area?

[Fisher-Dude]

Call me an opportunistic bowhunter go ahead. If the GOS closed on Nov 1 and a bow only was open on Nov 2 way fewer bucks would be killed but the hunting opportunity would still be there. Isn't that what we are after, hunting opportunity. Further to this, if all GOS seasons were closed and we all hunted with bow's think of how many more critters would be out there. We could probably all hunt 6 months a year for anything we wanted. Tonnes of opportunity. Where the hell are the little smiley faces buttons when you need them.

There would be no smiley faces for anyone who is trying to increase hunter numbers.:-( More restrictions (ie bow hunting only) have been shown to kill participation. Do you think 57 year old meat hunters are going to go buy bows and learn to bowhunt? Not bloody likely!

You say fewer bucks would be killed, and way more critters would be out there. We have one half the hunters we used to have and the highest number of deer ever in this province right now. They are getting slaughtered on the highways by cars and trucks with quads in the back. Why the hell would we want to see fewer animals harvested? :confused:

[GoatGuy]

Call me an opportunistic bowhunter go ahead. If the GOS closed on Nov 1 and a bow only was open on Nov 2 way fewer bucks would be killed but the hunting opportunity would still be there. Isn't that what we are after, hunting opportunity. Further to this, if all GOS seasons were closed and we all hunted with bow's think of how many more critters would be out there. We could probably all hunt 6 months a year for anything we wanted. Tonnes of opportunity. Where the hell are the little smiley faces buttons when you need them.

You're joking, right?:lol: :lol: :lol:

[GoatGuy]

As far as this topic goes it's been debated several times.

At the end of the day we need to worry about our deer first and our hunting opportunities second; I doubt anyone will disagree with that. Currently these goals are being accomplished for the most part (7B:mad: ) but could be improved. Additional opportunities should be given to the majority, meat hunters and also surplus should be given to youth. They are those who can't spend 12 months/year chasing and following mulies around in the bush, scouting for sheep. They also make up the majority of revenue and youth are our future. Furthermore they are the easiest to deter from hunter, quite the opposite of trophy and bowhunters.

If that means the 1-2% of trophy hunters have to hike farther, work harder, put in more time, so be it. Personally, if I have to put in that much more effort to track down a good buck/bull/boar or billy that's fine by me.

I've never looked at the stats from the any buck to 4pt but I can tell you that giving meat hunters 3 weeks in October (reg 8), the worst time of hunting season to track down a buck, isn't realistic or equitable: It has killed off hunters. Obviously in the late 90s there was a need for it, but times they are changing. I agree with Dana; any buck during September would help fullfill the needs of most hunters and would probably create a much better balance in terms of meeting conservation and hunting needs.

[Islandeer]

Hey in most(all) areas a fork or better season from Sept. to the end of October would not deplete our deer populations. If we have a killer winter then back it up 3 or 4 yrs to Sept. only. The reality is guys the future of hunting is not in trophy hunting. It is in the origins of this lifestyle. Families getting together,young and old, respecting the wildlife they hunt and bringing tasty gamemeat to the table. I sat around many a fire and campstove as a kid and listened to the old stories, they never were about who shot the biggest or smallest, more about where they were,and how they were going to get them. Call me a traditionalist,just my 2cents.

[Islandeer]

The trouble with an opening in December is the deer are pretty much shut down. They will be doing as little as possible to survive. The big bucks will be in the crap,hiding out, but it would be more days afield. I would be all over it.

[dana]

Fisherdude,
The fact that you have to stop and review the rack in the point count is enough time that even yearling basket racked 4x4's might grab a brain and bail. I've killed enough of them over the years to know that point counts are really tuff on those little guys.
I've said time and time again that the genetics where I hunt are no different than most of the entire province. Meaning, the genetic make-up in most areas in the province is great. Age is the limiting factor on what makes a buck average and what makes a buck an absolute TOAD! I know that the 4 point or better seasons here in Region 3 have brought up the quality in the entire Region. From talking with Region 8 hunters they are saying the same things. I grew up in prime muley country in the OK and a 150-160 class buck was a GIANT in those days. Not anymore. That is an average buck. The winter of 96 was brutal and the 4 point restrictions have brought back that herd from the point of utter decimation to the a flourishing herd. I'm sure there is a point now where you can ease off some of the restrictions. Extending the 'any buck' into Sept is a good way to start. In Region 3 I never hear people bitchin and moaning about not having enough time to kill a meat buck. A couple of hours is all that is needed. That is why I find it odd that the Region 5 hunters need an extra 20 days into the rut to get er done. What that season has done is just moved the hunters from one Region into another Region. I don't buy the argument that it is increasing the total hunter numbers in the province.

[ruttinbuck]

Agreed on the hunters moving into 5 in Nov.There are no where near the guys here in 3 in Nov that there was a few years ago.

[Islandeer]

Dana,
It's a delicate balance,the deer in your man. unit are high right now, another killer winter and it's back down. So why not loosen up the regs,allowing a few more hunters to put some prime meat in the freezer before the next dieoff. Any buck till Oct 15. 8)

[Maxx]

Hey in most(all) areas a fork or better season from Sept. to the end of October would not deplete our deer populations. If we have a killer winter then back it up 3 or 4 yrs to Sept. only. The reality is guys the future of hunting is not in trophy hunting. It is in the origins of this lifestyle. Families getting together,young and old, respecting the wildlife they hunt and bringing tasty gamemeat to the table. I sat around many a fire and campstove as a kid and listened to the old stories, they never were about who shot the biggest or smallest, more about where they were,and how they were going to get them. Call me a traditionalist,just my 2cents.


Yes, my opinion is my opinion, but you obviously did not listen. I will say it again for you. If you want "tradition", to be able to go out and get meat for your family, why not kill a doe? Are you too much of a man?? As Dana said, why do the hunters in Region 5 need 20 more days than other regions to kill "baby" bucks?

Hunter 1947 said it well, do what is best for the population, and at this moment IMO that would be to do as they are doing in Region 3, all of Nov is 4 point only. They should have a short open doe season for people like you...

[dana]

I'm not for the open doe seasons. They used to do that here 15 years ago. Man, it's taken a lot of work to get us back on track. Killing a doe is not just killing one deer, it is killing generations of deer. A doe that produces does that produce does. When you kill a buck you kill only that buck. The does he doesn't breed will still be bred by another buck. For that reason I believe does should stay LEH. That way the bios can control the amount harvested. Getting a doe tag is not hard either. Heck, this was the 3rd year in a row that I had one.

Islandeer,
You been watching any of the weather predictions lately. Global Warming seems to be the trend. Planning for a day that may never come seems a little bassackwards doesn't it? I know the herds are no where near carrying capacity. You can't tell me Region 5 is right now. Sure a bunch of deer are getting killed on a section of the highway and those numbers seem high in that area. Ever think about the other factors that might be moving the deer to that area? Wolves are really really strong right now. Deer will focus on more human developed areas because they know the wolves won't follow them there.

[30-06]

should be 4x4 season all around,,more of a challenge,more trophy deer,higher deer population.

[mainland hunter]

im no expert in wildlife management but it seems to me the way the deer seasons are in reg. 3 and 8, which is where i hunt mostly, are pretty good the way they stand right now. the deer pops. seem to be getting better. it gives the meat hunters a chance and us guys who dont get a chance to get out much for deer. id love to spend the time hunting trophy deer but cant really. i like the idea of 4 pters during the rut and october being any buck, best of both worlds. i think if you close down the any buck season entirely you'ld lose alot of hunters who just want to get out for a couple days and have a reasonable chance at harvesting something and the 4 pt season during the rut stops the little guys from getting hammered when their most vulnerable.

[Fisher-Dude]

Fisherdude,
The fact that you have to stop and review the rack in the point count is enough time that even yearling basket racked 4x4's might grab a brain and bail. I've killed enough of them over the years to know that point counts are really tuff on those little guys.


Then buy some good optics! Chuck out those 30 year old Tascos! I don't have to look very long thru the Leicas to see 4 points. :lol:


I know that the 4 point or better seasons here in Region 3 have brought up the quality in the entire Region. From talking with Region 8 hunters they are saying the same things. I grew up in prime muley country in the OK and a 150-160 class buck was a GIANT in those days. Not anymore. That is an average buck.

What about the string of warm winters and low snowpacks we've had? I think that has done more to increase both deer numbers and deer size than anything else. The same way that the winter of '96 could put the population on its ass, the winters of '97 - '05 allowed it to flourish. The bigger bucks have lower mortality rates in the easy winters too because they are able to find spring food when they are rutted out boneracks. Hence, more bigger bucks.

I want to see kids (including "big kids") get excited about hunting where they can shoot any buck, and stick with the sport with a realistic chance of putting hair on the ground. When I take a newbie fishing, it isn't to my honey hole lake where the trout are huge, fat, but really moody...it's to the other lakes where he/she can catch 20 tiddlers in a day and not get bored.

[hunter1947]

The trouble with an opening in December is the deer are pretty much shut down. They will be doing as little as possible to survive. The big bucks will be in the crap,hiding out, but it would be more days afield. I would be all over it. That's were i am coming from ,the deer are harder to get in dec ,in the hole pic ,there would be more deer at the end of the season ,therefore the population grows ,it's as simple as that. hunter 1947.

[Fisher-Dude]

That's were i am coming from ,the deer are harder to get in dec ,in the hole pic ,there would be more deer at the end of the season ,therefore the population grows ,it's as simple as that. hunter 1947.

Is it a good idea to chase deer around through December? I think perhaps the rutted out bucks need to rest up and try to put a few pounds back on before winter really hits. Without that bit of fat they get during December, their chances of survival through the tough months of March and April would decrease considerably in my opinion. What kind of table fare would they be? That could kill off participation as meat hunters don't always want to chew rawboned leather. Lots of the areas we hunt in November also become inaccessible in December when the snow starts to pile up...another hunter participation problem.

I'm also confused as to why more deer are needed when we have half the number of hunters we used to and record deer population numbers right now?? :confused:

[hunter1947]

Is it a good idea to chase deer around through December? I think perhaps the rutted out bucks need to rest up and try to put a few pounds back on before winter really hits. Without that bit of fat they get during December, their chances of survival through the tough months of March and April would decrease considerably in my opinion. What kind of table fare would they be? That could kill off participation as meat hunters don't always want to chew rawboned leather. Lots of the areas we hunt in November also become inaccessible in December when the snow starts to pile up...another hunter participation problem.

I'm also confused as to why more deer are needed when we have half the number of hunters we used to and record deer population numbers right now?? :confused: We have to feed the predators ,there's lots out there that's why we need more deer or others. hunter 1947.