Mule Deer Population

[fowlweather]

Hi all, its been a while since I've posted and am usually hang to the waterfowl side of the forum, but this year I got back into deer again and had a blast. Anyways I am wondering if I am not the only one who has gotten in a conversation about the Mule deer population here with respect to the White-tail population. From what I have heard and seen it looks like whities are moving way higher up into high elevations and pushing and outcompeting mulies at their own game. I was able to find a cool report on the topic that involved both populations in proportion to cougar hunting and predation and populations in northern washington state, its an easy read. http://www.wildlifemanagementinstitute.org/PDF/4-Effects%20of%20WhiteTailed....pdf

If anybody has any comments on this I would love to hear them as I think this can be quite an interesting topic. If somebody has asked this before on a thread and I can't seem to find it, all the better.

[coach]

Interesting stuff:

Conclusions:

Our results suggest that increased numbers of white-tailed deer results
in an increased number of cougars. The increased number of cougars results in
increased cougar predation on mule deer and possibly increased cougar
complaints. The increased cougar complaints result in increased cougar hunting.
Increased cougar hunting results in increased subadult male immigrants.
Increased immigrants results in increased cougar complaints.

Repeat. . .until such time as the female component of the cougar population collapses and
cougars are functionally extirpated. At that time, the white-tailed deer population
really explodes. Mule deer are then susceptible to further decline due to resource
competition or genetic introgression.

We recommend experimental reductions of invading white-tailed deer to
forestall such a scenario.

[604redneck]

interesting

[Looking_4_Jerky]

Was told about this study and the results earlier this season. Essentially, the harvest of cougars alone is not enough to curb negative impacts on mule deer, but rather, the sustained and heavy harvest of Whitetails will curtail both the competition and predation effect on mule deer. Glad I did my part this year! :)

It's an interesting study and I'd love to see how the results might be applicable to other predators like wolves. Control the prey rather than the predators? Interesting that my population biology instructor back in 2001 told me this very thing - that the best manipulation of predator densities was achievable by managing prey densities. If you think about it, for most of us (especially without hounds) it is easy to have our individual impact on ungulates but damn near impossible to find and kill predators (except maybe coyotes).

[horshur]

I don't know how they determined if cougar hunting increased......I would assume these areas have been hunted for cougar for years..

if they allowed or encouraged a female segment of the population to be harvested and protected through qoata the male segment.....I assume this is mainly male harvest.

I don't know why the female segment would collapse eventually ....

too much Washington state influence on that piece......you cannot hunt cougars in washington, oregon, or california however they harvest similiar numbers that sport hunter had every year since the ban regardless but only government hunters.

[Argali]

Interesting study, thanks for posting the link. I had expected that cougars would prey preferentially on mule deer when whitetails invade but it is nice to see confirmation. I wonder if the preference would change after several generations of cougar acquire more experience hunting whitetails?

It looks like the solution is for moderate cougar hunting combined with culling the invading whitetail deer herd with a general doe season ... which is pretty much what we have right now in the Ok and E.K. This adds some incentive for hunting whitetail does.

[The Dude]

Good read.

[The Dude]

Actually goes along with my hare-brained theory that introducing Moose and Whitetails into non-historic areas supports Wolf numbers, and a by-product of increased Mule Deer predation.

[coach]

I'm still puzzled at the recent decision to reduce wt harvest in the kootenays when the mule deer population is (allegedly) in big trouble.

[hunter1947]

Very interesting read maybe up here in region 4 we should have a 3 deer WT season a year not a reduced number in our bag limit..

No mule deer season for a few years would help,,,maybe the cougars like to eat the mule deer more then that of a WT deer ???? maybe mule deer are easier to take down then that of a WT deer ???? on this study there was not one thing mentioned about wolfs in these areas????..

Guess there are big problems in region areas where there are hi numbers of cats,wolfs,WT deer then add the hunting of mule deer GOS ,winter kill on top of all ,, I don't agree that there is a habitat problem for mule deer they will graze and browse when habitat is hard to find go check out low line land wintering grounds and you see almost no mule deer in Feb I see the few mule deer I do see up I higher elevation where they are not fighting WT and elk competing for habitat.....

[hunter1947]

Was told about this study and the results earlier this season. Essentially, the harvest of cougars alone is not enough to curb negative impacts on mule deer, but rather, the sustained and heavy harvest of Whitetails will curtail both the competition and predation effect on mule deer. Glad I did my part this year! :)

It's an interesting study and I'd love to see how the results might be applicable to other predators like wolves. Control the prey rather than the predators? Interesting that my population biology instructor back in 2001 told me this very thing - that the best manipulation of predator densities was achievable by managing prey densities. If you think about it, for most of us (especially without hounds) it is easy to have our individual impact on ungulates but damn near impossible to find and kill predators (except maybe coyotes).


X2 I am glad I did my part as well taking two WT deer one being a doe I did not take a mule deer this year I did try to find one I had a tag for a mule deer ,,next year I will not buy a mule deer tag then I can't shoot one if I see one least there will be one more mule deer out there maybe thats if a wolf or a cat does not get the one I did not shoot.

If I do buy a mule deer tag it will be used only in a region where the numbers are hi maybe region 1 or another region not the EK...

[Jimmy4x4]

I'm still puzzled at the recent decision to reduce wt harvest in the kootenays when the mule deer population is (allegedly) in big trouble.


because the crybabies got their way while the science in this study gathered dust on a shelf. social management of wildlife is the biggest threat to the resource

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Lots of cougars where I chase whitetails....and I've never seen such nervous deer in my entire life. They're absolutely wired. A twig snaps and they explode.
My "guess" is that it's increased predator presence.

Never seen mulies act that way.

SSS

[Kirby]

No mule deer season for a few years would help.

No it won't. If you want more mule deer you need more fawns to survive from one year to the next, that means better winter range. Better winter range and less winter range competition(inter species) will increase survival by reducing predator success, decreasing energy output (search of food, moving to areas of thermal cover, predator avoidance), increased energy input (better food) etc.

Stop shooting bucks if you want but don't think your saving the mule deer. If you want to save the mule deer deal with the winter range habitat.

[SHAKER]

No it won't. If you want more mule deer you need more fawns to survive from one year to the next, that means better winter range. Better winter range and less winter range competition(inter species) will increase survival by reducing predator success, decreasing energy output (search of food, moving to areas of thermal cover, predator avoidance), increased energy input (better food) etc.

Stop shooting bucks if you want but don't think your saving the mule deer. If you want to save the mule deer deal with the winter range habitat.

Bang on buddy!

[hunter1947]

No it won't. If you want more mule deer you need more fawns to survive from one year to the next, that means better winter range. Better winter range and less winter range competition(inter species) will increase survival by reducing predator success, decreasing energy output (search of food, moving to areas of thermal cover, predator avoidance), increased energy input (better food) etc.

Stop shooting bucks if you want but don't think your saving the mule deer. If you want to save the mule deer deal with the winter range habitat.


I don't by it,,,,,,,,,we need more recutment and taking out the preditors ,better game management is the key to mule deer poulation..

[coach]

I don't by it more need more recutment and taking out the preditors ,better game management is the key to mule deer poulation..

Did you read the article, Wayne?

[hunter1947]

Did you read the article, Wayne?

Yes I did look ,,,,,look at my post earler today on this thread 345am..

[GoatGuy]

I don't know how they determined if cougar hunting increased......I would assume these areas have been hunted for cougar for years..

if they allowed or encouraged a female segment of the population to be harvested and protected through qoata the male segment.....I assume this is mainly male harvest.

I don't know why the female segment would collapse eventually ....

too much Washington state influence on that piece......you cannot hunt cougars in washington, oregon, or california however they harvest similiar numbers that sport hunter had every year since the ban regardless but only government hunters.

Washington State opened things right up for cougars a couple years ago and made licenses super cheap, think it was $5. They shot the shit out of the cougars.

[sawmill]

Actually goes along with my hare-brained theory that introducing Moose and Whitetails into non-historic areas supports Wolf numbers, and a by-product of increased Mule Deer predation.

Um...since when have we been introducing Whities and Moose into non- historic range?I think they pretty much crash the party all on their own.
I lived in Hazelton in Northwest B.C. for 15 years,never ever saw an elk or a whitie.Now they have a season for them.Indians told me around the early 1900`s nobody had ever seen a moose before until a native hunter shot one and was all freaked out that he would get in shit for shooting some white guys giant pack horse.All they hunted then was mountain carribou.Those are pretty much gone.Things change,survival of the fittest.Mulies are being pushed out of traditional range by Elk and Whities.I don`t think wolves and cats are getting them all,not a lot of wolf activity where I hunt yet I hardley ever see Mulies anymore.They may have moved but I dunno.Funny thing is,when you see a herd of 80 to 100 elk here there is almost always a whack of whities on the fringe.Maybe Mulies are too dumb to figure out a good survival trick?

[hunter1947]

Over the past few weeks not to mention any names I have talked to people that have guided and lived here in the EK all there life and they are very knowledgeable people they all agree that habitat is not the problem for the decline of mule deer in the EK they believe that thee is enough habitat to feed the mule deer during winter conditions..

[GoatGuy]

Um...since when have we been introducing Whities and Moose into non- historic range?I think they pretty much crash the party all on their own.
I lived in Hazelton in Northwest B.C. for 15 years,never ever saw an elk or a whitie.Now they have a season for them.Indians told me around the early 1900`s nobody had ever seen a moose before until a native hunter shot one and was all freaked out that he would get in shit for shooting some white guys giant pack horse.All they hunted then was mountain carribou.Those are pretty much gone.Things change,survival of the fittest.Mulies are being pushed out of traditional range by Elk and Whities.I don`t think wolves and cats are getting them all,not a lot of wolf activity where I hunt yet I hardley ever see Mulies anymore.They may have moved but I dunno.Funny thing is,when you see a herd of 80 to 100 elk here there is almost always a whack of whities on the fringe.Maybe Mulies are too dumb to figure out a good survival trick?

This research is the same as what was found in the PD. Mule deer are far more susceptible to predation by cougars than wt's are, particularly in marginal habitat. Mule deer are a slower growing species and after the winter of 96/97 wt's rebounded quickly maintaining an artificially high cougar population (if it was MD only). As a result md populations rebounded very, very slowly while wt populations exploded.

Lots and lots of cats in behind your place. Many cats that never ever leave winter range cause there are so many wt.

[hunter1947]

This research is the same as what was found in the PD. Mule deer are far more susceptible to predation by cougars than wt's are, particularly in marginal habitat. Mule deer are a slower growing species and after the winter of 96/97 wt's rebounded quickly maintaining an artificially high cougar population (if it was MD only). As a result md populations rebounded very, very slowly while wt populations exploded.

Lots and lots of cats in behind your place. Many cats that never ever leave winter range cause there are so many wt.


X2 I am glad to see that we do agree on a few things..

[GoatGuy]

Over the past few weeks not to mention any names I have talked to people that have guided and lived here in the EK all there life and they are very knowledgeable people they all agree that habitat is not the problem for the decline of mule deer in the EK..

They might be good guides, but if they haven't noticed the ingrowth in the EK over the last 40 years, they don't know much about wildlife or the EK.

This is a known problem to most of the outfitters with a bit of intelligence, and all of the wildlife biologists and researchers who have worked in the East Kootenay. The old timers who outfitted in that country since the 40s know it's a huge problem.

There are a pile of sheep populations which have also declined and disappeared for the exact same reason.

[The Dude]

It's my understanding that Moose, Whitetails, and Coyotes have followed settlement by "white folks" into many areas of BC due to roads, railroads, farming, and predator suppression.
If I'm wrong, then prove me wrong.

[coach]

Over the past few weeks not to mention any names I have talked to people that have guided and lived here in the EK all there life and they are very knowledgeable people they all agree that habitat is not the problem for the decline of mule deer in the EK..

If you keep listening to the opinions you want to hear and ignore information from others who have differing views, it's fairly predictable what your beliefs will become.

At least you've come a long way from this viewpoint:
I say let nature do its thing I myself don't care for MD I would eat WT over MD any day like I said let nature do its thing..

I'm not looking to pick on you or be disrespectful, Wayne. I appreciate your posts and great videos and pictures. I'm simply surprised by your lack of interest in fully understanding all of the issues facing mule deer management..

[horshur]

Washington State opened things right up for cougars a couple years ago and made licenses super cheap, think it was $5. They shot the shit out of the cougars.

well I looked into that a little......they had female qoutas... so how could they crash the female segment unless they did it on purpose.

[GoatGuy]

well I looked into that a little......they had female qoutas... so how could they crash the female segment unless they did it on purpose.

Not sure I understand??

[Kody94]

I'm still puzzled at the recent decision to reduce wt harvest in the kootenays when the mule deer population is (allegedly) in big trouble.

Exactly.

The change was to remedy a situation where the regulation and the synopsis were out of sync, but the reason the regulation wasn't changed to 3 was simply because of a lot of opposition to the idea....from folks that apparently aren't willing to concede that the expansion of whitetails is a major component of the mule deer problem, and one that can be rectified a lot easier than getting money for habitat improvement, or government predator control (that won't happen due to politics, and won't work anyway according to that study).

[horshur]

I am refering to this.


"Increased cougar hunting results in increased subadult male immigrants.

Increased immigrants results in increased cougar complaints. Repeat. . .until

such time as the female component of the cougar population collapses and

cougars are functionally extirpated."

[Kody94]

It's my understanding that Moose, Whitetails, and Coyotes have followed settlement by "white folks" into many areas of BC due to roads, railroads, farming, and predator suppression.
If I'm wrong, then prove me wrong.
That's not quite the same as introducing them.

But they are there. What kills me is that hunters seem to want to protect the expanded whitetails, and have more mule deer, and have more elk, and, and and...but don't want to face the facts that you can't have it all.

[Kody94]

I am refering to this.


"Increased cougar hunting results in increased subadult male immigrants.

Increased immigrants results in increased cougar complaints. Repeat. . .until

such time as the female component of the cougar population collapses and

cougars are functionally extirpated."


I believe the first part was observed, the latter part is theoretical (ie. hunting pressure was increased, more subadult male immigrants were observed, increased cougar complaints were observed, and the trend would be expected to continue unless the population was reduced such that the female component collapsed).

[Stillhunting]

What I've noticed from hunting region 3 is that the whities seem to hang around in Muley winter range year around so they likely deplete winter forage for mule deer and then compete with mule deer for the left over forage come winter. Throw in a huge elk population to intensify competition and I believe you have a recipe for reduced mule deer survival through the winter. The bottom line is that there does not seem to be enough winter range for all the elk, white-tails and mule deer combined. Do your part and take a couple of whities and an elk.

[hunter1947]

What I've noticed from hunting region 3 is that the whities seem to hang around in Muley winter range year around so they likely deplete winter forage for mule deer and then compete with mule deer for the left over forage come winter. Throw in a huge elk population to intensify competition and I believe you have a recipe for reduced mule deer survival through the winter. The bottom line is that there does not seem to be enough winter range for all the elk, white-tails and mule deer combined. Do your part and take a couple of whities and an elk.

If this is the case then management should not let this happen ,,shoot more WT deer and open up a 3 point antler GOS for elk for a short time or have 3 point elk on LEH the hi elevation elk are competing with the low land elk population for habitat winter time makes for a big number..

[SHAKER]

If this is the case then management should not let this happen ,,shoot more WT deer and open up a 3 point antler GOS for elk for a short time or have 3 point elk on LEH the hi elevation elk are competing with the low land elk population for habitat winter time makes for a big number..

As much as I love the idea, I don't think you'll get much support for it. It would get some of them big 5 points hitt'n the dirt though.:twisted:

[The Dude]

That's not quite the same as introducing them.

Is "Enabling" a more politically correct term for you?

[Sofa King]

This research is the same as what was found in the PD. Mule deer are far more susceptible to predation by cougars than wt's are, particularly in marginal habitat. Mule deer are a slower growing species and after the winter of 96/97 wt's rebounded quickly maintaining an artificially high cougar population (if it was MD only). As a result md populations rebounded very, very slowly while wt populations exploded.

Lots and lots of cats in behind your place. Many cats that never ever leave winter range cause there are so many wt.

how can it be proven that cougar prefer mules?
i would think it's more about them sharing similar territories.
the cougar will kill whatever deer are present.
i really don't think they'd pass on whites to seek out a mule.

still, in every area that i hunt, even the east side of okanagan lake, i find almost exclusively mules.
i really have to search hard to find the whites.

[steel_ram]

Mulies are probably easier targets than WT's if available. There kinda dumb.

[Husky7mm]

That's not quite the same as introducing them.

But they are there. What kills me is that hunters seem to want to protect the expanded whitetails, and have more mule deer, and have more elk, and, and and...but don't want to face the facts that you can't have it all.
The whitetail reduction has been achieved in many of the areas of the EK, perhaps not some of the core late season areas that you have been hunting, which it stands to reason they are concentrated in at that time of year. While some mulies may come down to the low country and compete for winter forage with ELK and whitetail, many don't..... Many winter way up high on the steep wind swept slopes and under the canopy of the big firs, and even ceders. Hundreds of meters higher than the elk and WT. I see it with my own two eyes and walk it with my own to legs because I "hunt" mulies year round. Have you not observered the habitat improvement going on all around the EK, burns, thinning, brushing, even some mulching. Much of these areas are still void of deer and elk ???they are not utilizing it.... my guess is they have not been "pushed" there. So much winter range is under utilized it blows my mind! I can take anyones hand and show them!
The mule deer were on the upswing from 96-97 winter (true much slower then WT) until about 2006-2007-2008 approx and then they have been diving ever since, they seem to have a very low recuitment, they are not starving, they are being ate. True allowing small bucks to be harvested will have little impact on how many fawns are born next year, but limiting the harvest/ time WILL leave MORE mule deer out there.
Anyways don't rule some type predator management out, as it is starting to get traction!
20 years ago caribou could have been saved if action was taken before it became a huge problem. I see the writing on the wall.....

[Husky7mm]

If this is the case then management should not let this happen ,,shoot more WT deer and open up a 3 point antler GOS for elk for a short time or have 3 point elk on LEH the hi elevation elk are competing with the low land elk population for habitat winter time makes for a big number..
If you want the total elk population to go down in general only a cow harvest will achieve that. Allowing an increase in the bull harvest will result in a tougher GOS 6 point season down the road when/if they revert back to it. There will still be just as many cows giving birth the following spring and just as many elk still competeing with deer for winter habitat.

[bigben]

I'm still puzzled at the recent decision to reduce wt harvest in the kootenays when the mule deer population is (allegedly) in big trouble.

Easy Coach we don t have a mule deer problem in the east kootenay that was discussed a couple of years ago on this site and the thing went on for pages and pages on mule deer population the mules have become an interesting state of discussion in our region ................ wondering is all

[dana]

Easy Coach we don t have a mule deer problem in the east kootenay that was discussed a couple of years ago on this site and the thing went on for pages and pages are mule deer population the mules have become an interesting state of discussion in our region ................ wondering is all

Bang on! I've been saying for years but some wannabees like to argue when they pass on buck after buck (more than any other hunter out there) and yet still get on here and whine that the deer numbers are critically in the toliet. Yet, I'm the ass cause I call them wannabees. Heck, my kids should be embarressed to have me as their father right???

[MattB]

Bang on! I've been saying for years but some wannabees like to argue when they pass on buck after buck (more than any other hunter out there) and yet still get on here and whine that the deer numbers are critically in the toliet. Yet, I'm the ass cause I call them wannabees. Heck, my kids should be embarressed to have me as their father right???

What's bang on? One guys opinion with nothing to back it up? Applying your LOCAL knowledge elsewhere doesn't really work either so what makes his statement bang on? And which wannabes are being referred to now? The ones in the WEST koots? His statement is in regards to the East.

[pickle88]

lotsa mulies around where i hunt

[coach]

And another good thread starts going sideways..

[hunter1993ap]

I dont hunt in the east koots for mule deer so i have no idea what the pop is like but if its anything like the area i hunt things are probably worse than years past. i do know a few people from the koots and they believe the numbers are low. these guys are hardcore hunters and i think there observations and time in the bush should be given some credit. i think it is a natural curve and believe the pops will go up in time. i saw my fair share of deer this year but not as many as last year. could have just been me not being in the right place at the right time or mabey the numbers are down. i put in enough time to have a decent idea, but am still just begining to understand how things work. i dont believe there has been a count or survey in the last few years in my area., and i dont believe these surveys are all that accurate, because they are not done enough to show a curve. i could be wrong but i cant find any info on the counts in my area.

[dana]

What's bang on? One guys opinion with nothing to back it up? Applying your LOCAL knowledge elsewhere doesn't really work either so what makes his statement bang on? And which wannabes are being referred to now? The ones in the WEST koots? His statement is in regards to the East.

East and West it don't matter. The issue there is not a deer issue it is a hunter issue. It ain't a wolf issue, it ain't a cougar issue and it ain't a whitetail issue. It is a plain and simple hunter issue. The Koots has a bunch of hunters that think hunting should be easy. That 200 inchers should be behind every tree. And they are dumb enough to think if they take away all the regular joe blow hunters out of the picture, that suddenly they will have those 'easy to find' magically 200 inchers. They want to take the hunting rights away from everyone else so they can be selfish in their own personal endevours. It really makes sense in their minds, but when it comes to reality, they have missed the boat. Do you grow big bucks by killing them off when they are 1 or 2 year old 4 points? Do you find it easier to find big bucks when you put everyone out after the same buck? They think so. You are wise enough to know different. When you start raising you own hunters, you will thank me for my constant beating of this drum. Restrict hunters and we will forever loose the next generation. Do I want to see my grandkids have to wait years and years under an LEH system like most of the States have in order to hunt????

[MattB]

East and West it don't matter. The issue there is not a deer issue it is a hunter issue. It ain't a wolf issue, it ain't a cougar issue and it ain't a whitetail issue. It is a plain and simple hunter issue. The Koots has a bunch of hunters that think hunting should be easy. That 200 inchers should be behind every tree. And they are dumb enough to think if they take away all the regular joe blow hunters out of the picture, that suddenly they will have those 'easy to find' magically 200 inchers. They want to take the hunting rights away from everyone else so they can be selfish in their own personal endevours. It really makes sense in their minds, but when it comes to reality, they have missed the boat. Do you grow big bucks by killing them off when they are 1 or 2 year old 4 points? Do you find it easier to find big bucks when you put everyone out after the same buck? They think so. You are wise enough to know different. When you start raising you own hunters, you will thank me for my constant beating of this drum. Restrict hunters and we will forever loose the next generation. Do I want to see my grandkids have to wait years and years under an LEH system like most of the States have in order to hunt????

I honestly don't think it is a hunter issue. I think there are multiple aspects that are all affecting mule deer of which some are listed in your post but also include habitat degradation/loss, increasing predator populations, etc...
Playing devils advocate here. What about Cody's nanny goat that was knowingly shot as a nanny? The regulations don't require a billy only harvest, but do ask hunters to try and select a billy. If a goat is known to be a nanny it shouldn't be shot, plain and simple. Is that LEH draw still open? Do you want to see hunters have opportunities at goats; maybe even your grandkids? Yes, you got Cody interested in hunting but what did he learn about conservation?

[coach]

Dana, while I agree with most of what you are saying, even the "science" guys are saying mule deer may need help in the Kootenays. The study that precipitated this discussion outlines some interesting explanations as to the link between whitetail and mule deer numbers and cougar predation. Did you read the report? If so, what do you think of the conclusions? The question I asked regarding reducing the regional bag limit - at a time when the only animals open for harvest are whitetails - seems to fly in the face of the findings of the report and seems like a social decision to me. Your thoughts?

[dana]

I honestly don't think it is a hunter issue. I think there are multiple aspects that are all affecting mule deer of which some are listed in your post but also include habitat degradation/loss, increasing predator populations, etc...
Playing devils advocate here. What about Cody's nanny goat that was knowingly shot as a nanny? The regulations don't require a billy only harvest, but do ask hunters to try and select a billy. If a goat is known to be a nanny it shouldn't be shot, plain and simple. Is that LEH draw still open? Do you want to see hunters have opportunities at goats; maybe even your grandkids? Yes, you got Cody interested in hunting but what did he learn about conservation?

Matt,
You have done enough reading over the years to know the mule deer issue is not restricted to the Koots. It is the entire West that has been seeing a decline for the last 30 or so years. Hunters have been argueing about season restrictions for just as long. Heck, look at the Muley Crazy boys. They are whacking the biggest bucks that have ever walking on the planet yet they still are whining about the deer numbers. :) Look at the Pauns. They whacked some whoppers in there and made some movies about it and then everyone and their dog was putting in for that unit and everyone who got drawn whacked monsters. So why the crash in quality now? You can't kill off your older age class bucks consistantly and think quality will be maintained. Every year the next age class is hit and so forth until you are left will young bucks and older poor antler genetic bucks right? So how is changing the seasons in the Koots to a 4 point or better only going to magically grow big bucks. You will start with the young 1 and 2 year old 4 points getting whacked and whacked and whacked. How do you grow bucks into an older age class by forcing everyone to hunt the so-called trophy season. If you want to be a trophy hunter, that is your own decision. Why would you try to force everyone to follow your own personal objectives? You are just shooting yourself in the foot, cause you ain't going to grow big bucks with everyone and their dog after the same bucks. So, isn't it better to have hunters harvest over all age classes and all genetic classes. You and I both have watched bucks grow up. You know that those spikes and forkys ain't every going to amount to nothing as they mature. They are already showing their genetics within the first year of growth. Sure given age and good feed they might blosom into a 150 class buck, but you know that's not what these Koots trophy hunters are wanting right? So why not let the meat hunters take these bucks just like we do in Region 3? The vast majority of the bucks shot in Oct are in fact spikes and forkys. And when these guys tag out, do you have them as competition when you are hunting your big bucks in Nov? Nope, cause they are sitting at home watching the Grey Cup. So, you have the best of both worlds. You have guys out hunting for the enjoyment of the meat, having fun with family enjoying the great outdoors, and you have the hard-core trophy nuts who have the entire backcountry all to themselves to hunt mature muleys on their own terms. So, tell me, how I am wrong again. Tell me, I want to know how I am somehow missing the mark here. Just because you don't tag a mature muley every year, doesn't mean they don't live there. Big bucks get old by being smart. You are hunting them own their home turf. They know it way better than you. The pursuit of a big ol' muley is not for the faint of heart. You get your ass kicked more times than you win. So just because some hard-core hunters who passed on numerous bucks this year and didn't see the 'right' buck, doesn't mean you have a conservation issue now does it?

[dana]

Dana, while I agree with most of what you are saying, even the "science" guys are saying mule deer may need help in the Kootenays. The study that precipitated this discussion outlines some interesting explanations as to the link between whitetail and mule deer numbers and cougar predation. Did you read the report? If so, what do you think of the conclusions? The question I asked regarding reducing the regional bag limit - at a time when the only animals open for harvest are whitetails - seems to fly in the face of the findings of the report and seems like a social decision to me. Your thoughts?

Coach,
I'm on the same page as my brother regarding that Study. It was out of WA and they ain't to be trusted. Cougars are not the issue. If houndsmen weren't such Bullshitters, you'd realize that. They don't tree tons a year. Heck, most spend most of their time hunting dogs not cougars. And because they lost the dogs for 3 days, the dogs must have been under a tree right? Truth is, there ain't a ton of lions around. One cat can cover a ton of ground and if a deer hunter sees a set of tracks, they jump to the conclusion the place is crawling with them. Hell, mule deer hunters in Utah are whinning way more the the Koots hunters above the lack of deer and they have what a whopping 5 whitetails in the entire state. So, they jump on lions as the main issue. And yet every serious houndsman says they are hunting their asses off and have a hard time finding much to chase. So, who do ya believe? Deer hunters who didn't see that magical 200 inchers this season, or houndsmen who say they can't find anything to chase?

[MattB]

All good points Steve, I think guys want to see less deer getting shot and that may be the reason for the 4 point or better seasons? I think for the areas you hunt the majority of the bucks that are going to grow into something special are those tiny little 4 points we see and have sheds from. It isn't the same way elsewhere though, the majority of deer are spikes and 2 points in their first year of antler growth. You don't see yearling 4 points elsewhere like you do in your backyard. Those 2 points elsewhere can and do grow into big muleys. Who are the guys that passed on numerous bucks this year, from talking to guys that live down there they aren't seeing mule deer like they used to. Even my grandpa tells me this and he has lived in the west koots his whole life. All of this could be linked to increasing whitetail populations and subsequent increases in predator populations; that is a very real possibility. But, looking at the situation from the big picture why are mule deer in decline throughout western NA? Habitat loss and degradation especially on the winter range is a big issue.

[dana]

I also will go out on a limb here and say I'm leaning towards agreeing with some aspects of Hunterman67's comments. I personally don't think that there is a 'feed' issue in most of the province when it comes to mule deer. Mule deer are browsers in the winter. The classic sage/grasslands that you see in Wy, UT, ect... where deer are wintering on is not BC habitat. Grasslands make up very very very little of the habitat of muleys in this province. So even though much of the limited amount of grassland we have in this province is degraded and has forest ingrowth, it really is minor when it comes to the true winter range of muleys. So, without me listing off the browse species, lets see if we can get some of the so-called muley gurus to list them and ask, as the moisture has been quite abundant in most of the province over the last ten years with only 2 significant dry years (which created an abundance of new feed due to fires), please tell me, how much of these browse species are hurting???

[dana]

All good points Steve, I think guys want to see less deer getting shot and that may be the reason for the 4 point or better seasons? I think for the areas you hunt the majority of the bucks that are going to grow into something special are those tiny little 4 points we see and have sheds from. It isn't the same way elsewhere though, the majority of deer are spikes and 2 points in their first year of antler growth. You don't see yearling 4 points elsewhere like you do in your backyard. Those 2 points elsewhere can and do grow into big muleys. Who are the guys that passed on numerous bucks this year, from talking to guys that live down there they aren't seeing mule deer like they used to. Even my grandpa tells me this and he has lived in the west koots his whole life. All of this could be linked to increasing whitetail populations and subsequent increases in predator populations; that is a very real possibility. But, looking at the situation from the big picture why are mule deer in decline throughout western NA? Habitat loss and degradation especially on the winter range is a big issue.

Matt,
You probably are too young to remember the winter of 96 and how that hurt the deer in both the Koots and the OK. As a result, a 4 point or better only season was put into place. It hit a lot of meat hunters in the OK hard. They weren't use to counting points. But because many meat hunters wanted to continue to hunt, they were forced to hunt by counting points. After a couple years, everyone was actually realizing that killing a 4 point is pretty darn easy. And the meat hunters continued filling the freezer with small 4 points instead of spikes and forkys. So, end result, nothing changed in the scheme of harvest except a lot of bucks with good genetics were being whacked as yearlings and 2 year olds. So does that make bigger bucks? And then when the deer numbers started to increase and the managers in Region 8 wanted to open a Any Buck season again, suddenly all these meat hunters who were now thinking they were trophy hunters, started complaining cause they figured all the trophy deer would get shot off. Funny thing is, the OK didn't start producing big bucks on a regular basis until they brought back that Any Buck season.

[Rattler]

All good points Steve, I think guys want to see less deer getting shot and that may be the reason for the 4 point or better seasons? I think for the areas you hunt the majority of the bucks that are going to grow into something special are those tiny little 4 points we see and have sheds from. It isn't the same way elsewhere though, the majority of deer are spikes and 2 points in their first year of antler growth. You don't see yearling 4 points elsewhere like you do in your backyard. Those 2 points elsewhere can and do grow into big muleys. Who are the guys that passed on numerous bucks this year, from talking to guys that live down there they aren't seeing mule deer like they used to. Even my grandpa tells me this and he has lived in the west koots his whole life. All of this could be linked to increasing whitetail populations and subsequent increases in predator populations; that is a very real possibility. But, looking at the situation from the big picture why are mule deer in decline throughout western NA? Habitat loss and degradation especially on the winter range is a big issue.

That is exactly the way I and other hunters feel here in the WK. I know restricting the Mule deer to a 4 point season is not going to increase the Mule deer population. It will however save some smaller bucks, which will grow up to be big bucks. We don't have a good handle on the buck to doe ratios here in the WK and until such time I believe we need to restrict to 4 point or better. Is this going to restrict hunter opportunity? I don't believe this for a second. We have excellent GOS here in BC. If guys don't want to hunt MD they can still kill a WT doe and buck, which I feel are good opportunities, especially for new hunters. Need to focus on winter range habitat improvement and reducing predators in the WK if we want to help out our MD.

[one-shot-wonder]

So, without me listing off the browse species, lets see if we can get some of the so-called muley gurus to list them and ask, as the moisture has been quite abundant in most of the province over the last ten years with only 2 significant dry years (which created an abundance of new feed due to fires), please tell me, how much of these browse species are hurting???

I think some browse species are hurting more than you think, simply due to fire suppression. Looking back to the 30s, 40s and 50s we had 10 times as many hectares burn annually as in the last 2 decades. Those frequent, numerous fires back then maintained a proper succession of browse. This was a time of high quality browse, and a tons of quantity - lots of acres of groceries. Browse was nutritious, palatable and easy to digest. Mule deer thrive in early successional habitats, where forbs, grassy plants and shrubs dominate. These environments are not as stable as forest habitats, and rely on fire to return them to an early successional stage. If they are not disturbed, they eventually become dominated by trees and forest ingrowth witnessed so much of today in BC.

In addition to fewer fires burning on fewer acres, fire suppression has changed the intensity and rate at which fires burn. Fuel loads build up such that when infrequent fires occur, they cover large amounts of land and burn very hot just like in 2003 and 2009. Typically areas that burn fast and hot become monocultures. An example of this is the mass spread of Cheatgrass. The Okanagan mountain fire area is now loaded with it. When cheatgrass takes hold, it can ultimately outcompete every native plant, creating a monoculture. Except for the brief period in spring when new green shoots of cheatgrass emerge from the soil, stands of solid cheatgrass have about as much benefit to mule deer as a parking lot.....This same Cheatgrass is also I think a large part of the problem with the Okanagan Bighorn Sheep.

I think the answer is to better mimic the past history with frequent fires either natural or by prescription.......A large hill to climb to get society on board but I think slowly people are starting to get it. As for hunters and social regulation restriction I am not so sure we will ever get it.....lots of selfish narrow sighted people we share the back country with.

[dana]

one-shot
Where I see a major difference in the discussion of fires is I have made my living doing forestry. Clearcuts of all shapes and sizes have mimiced natural disturbance types without the burn intenisty you are talking about. Now cutblocks to the average joe don't seem to be much for winter habitat now do they? But, given some good age (15-25 years) and the deer are feeding in them as the planted trees are collecting the snow and keeping it off the ground but the browse is indeed there. False Box, aspen, birch, willow, alder, snow berry, blue berry, huckleberry, thistle, raspberry, saskatoon, rose, the list goes on. In mild winters like we've been having over the last 15 or so years, the deer have also been wintering at much higher elevations than they used to historically. They haven't been dependant on the snow interception of the fir stands. Believe it or not, but the pine beetle dead stands are providing a tonne of feed with increased light to the canopy floor causing many browse species to grow in abundance. And with the pine falling out now, you know those blowdown jungles. Deer love them. When a pine falls, it rubs against the fir that are mixed in the stand and those fir branches that fall to the ground are great eats. As are the lichens that are on the dead pine. Now I know not everywhere is the same and pine stands aren't huge in the Koots as they are in the Cariboo, but what I am getting at is deer change and move given the different feed sources that they have available to them. Hunterman67 says he can't find a shed if his life depended on it. I can relate. I have had a lot of my shed areas void for the last 5 years. But I haven't jump to the conclusion all the deer are dead. Nope, I've searched and I've searched and I have tried to find where it is they are now shedding. Why? Because in the 25+ years that I've been an avid shed hunter, I've seen it many a time where deer just up and move on ya. An area that once held lots of bucks in the winter, doesn't anymore, but somewhere else does. So my advice to Hunterman, look somewhere else. Pound area after after. Go higher and go where you would never think to ever find sheds and you probably will start finding them.
It seems hunters get stuck in a rut that if something worked for them once, they continue to hunt the same place in the same way. They don't change when the deer do. And then they are left scratching their heads and jumping on the internet jumping to conclusions that the deer are all dead and whoever is in charge screwed up. Couldn't be further from the truth.

[dana]

That is exactly the way I and other hunters feel here in the WK. I know restricting the Mule deer to a 4 point season is not going to increase the Mule deer population. It will however save some smaller bucks, which will grow up to be big bucks. We don't have a good handle on the buck to doe ratios here in the WK and until such time I believe we need to restrict to 4 point or better. Is this going to restrict hunter opportunity? I don't believe this for a second. We have excellent GOS here in BC. If guys don't want to hunt MD they can still kill a WT doe and buck, which I feel are good opportunities, especially for new hunters. Need to focus on winter range habitat improvement and reducing predators in the WK if we want to help out our MD.

And yet you have read my reasons why that won't work for ya, and you still think restricting hunters is the way to go. On the other thread you and your partner in crime said you were against the WT doe hunt. Now suddenly you are for it again? And what about your other buddy, the meat hunter who came to your defense. He said you two pass on more bucks than anyone. Sooooo, who are we to believe. Is there really a deer shortage in the WK or have you 2 just not seen the 'right' buck that is to your standards, so you want everyone to change for your selfish ambitions????? Instead of being butthurt, grow some skin and admit you want trophy bucks and that is why you are pushing your wants for season closures. Meanwhile, nothing you do will instantly grow that magical buck you are looking for. So once you get the season closures, you then will start pushing for more restrictions. Soon, we'll have a LEH system like the states where the only ones that are shooting the big bucks are those with the big $$$ bucks.

[dana]

All good points Steve, I think guys want to see less deer getting shot and that may be the reason for the 4 point or better seasons? I think for the areas you hunt the majority of the bucks that are going to grow into something special are those tiny little 4 points we see and have sheds from. It isn't the same way elsewhere though, the majority of deer are spikes and 2 points in their first year of antler growth. You don't see yearling 4 points elsewhere like you do in your backyard. Those 2 points elsewhere can and do grow into big muleys. Who are the guys that passed on numerous bucks this year, from talking to guys that live down there they aren't seeing mule deer like they used to. Even my grandpa tells me this and he has lived in the west koots his whole life. All of this could be linked to increasing whitetail populations and subsequent increases in predator populations; that is a very real possibility. But, looking at the situation from the big picture why are mule deer in decline throughout western NA? Habitat loss and degradation especially on the winter range is a big issue.

Sooo, you of all people are telling me the WK doesn't have good genetics? The only place in the province that has consistantly produced monsters year after year after year. Look in the BC Record Book. I know you have. You are telling me that even though it was producing monsters as early as a couple years ago, now all that is gone? Now we have to save spikes and forkeys cause they are our only hope on growing a big buck??? I will easily call Bull$hit on that! Are you turning into a Wannabe too? ;)

[one-shot-wonder]

I agree the pine beetle epidemic might be what the mule deer doctor has ordered..... more match sticks awaiting a lightning struck (or maybe even a stray butt..??...) Blow down creates habitat and dead fall aids escaping predators.
However for as much winter range has been gained by these mid/low elevation clearcuts, I feel we have lost even more area in better quality winter range habitat due to development (most obvious in the Koots the dams and lake creation). Albeit the past few years it appears we have been lucky avoiding a severe winter but it will happen and the best quality/critical/prime winter range that was once relied upon is all but gone.

Back to the cutblocks.....What i witness in the southern interior and Koots while afield is that the regenerated forest after the 10-15 year period of groceries becomes extremely grown in and because of either a change in policy or cutbacks these days never get thinned and eventually choke almost all browse species out, and offering no sightabilty which the mule deer rely on for predator detection. Secondly it lends a hand to the competition species that seem to thrive in the dense regen, further exasperating the efforts of the native Mule deer. The wannabe Bio I am wishes less mass clearcut and more selective harvest blocks existed. Maintaining a portion of old growth trees and less stems per ha, I feel would lend itself more similar to a natural occurence, than to whack and stack all standing timber and mass replanting of a pine carpet.

[The Dude]

It seems hunters get stuck in a rut that if something worked for them once, they continue to hunt the same place in the same way. They don't change when the deer do. And then they are left scratching their heads and jumping on the internet jumping to conclusions that the deer are all dead and whoever is in charge screwed up. Couldn't be further from the truth.

That's a wrap, folks. :D
Have a safe drive home.

[dana]

When it comes to muleys and blowdown, you are missing one important survival characteristic of the mule deer, the reason why they stott. Blowdown is easy for them to just stott over, which in predation terms, puts obsticles in the way of their predator. They have a wolf come into that stuff, the dog is dead in the water at trying to kill them there. All the deer needs to do is stott over several over lapped trees and the dog is trying to go under, over, around, tangled in sharp joe pokes and the deer is laughing his ass off. Cougars will fare better, but like I said earlier, IMO, they are a non issue. Think of it like the lynx and the snowshoe hare.

[Rattler]

And yet you have read my reasons why that won't work for ya, and you still think restricting hunters is the way to go. On the other thread you and your partner in crime said you were against the WT doe hunt. Now suddenly you are for it again? And what about your other buddy, the meat hunter who came to your defense. He said you two pass on more bucks than anyone. Sooooo, who are we to believe. Is there really a deer shortage in the WK or have you 2 just not seen the 'right' buck that is to your standards, so you want everyone to change for your selfish ambitions????? Instead of being butthurt, grow some skin and admit you want trophy bucks and that is why you are pushing your wants for season closures. Meanwhile, nothing you do will instantly grow that magical buck you are looking for. So once you get the season closures, you then will start pushing for more restrictions. Soon, we'll have a LEH system like the states where the only ones that are shooting the big bucks are those with the big $$$ bucks.

Well without throwing insults, which you can't seem to do and only embarrass yourself, I have the following response.

Reducing the WT bag limit makes sense right now given the abnormally high predator numbers. We use to pass on a few bucks, but that hasn't been the case for several years now. My reasons for limit/point reductions has absolutely nothing to do with restricting hunter opportunities/competition, or increasing trophy bucks. I want to be able to go out and see deer and deer sign, which right now is a difficult thing to do. I want nothing to do with a LEH system, especially like the system we have here in BC. I only want to ensure we have sustainable deer populations and to do that sometimes restricting bag limits and having point restrictions are necessary.

[fowlweather]

http://netanimations.net/Moving-animated-picture-of-ping-pong-tournament.gifback and forth, back and forth^

[one-shot-wonder]

Definately not missing the stotting benefit....blow down either from beetle devistation or from a wildfire is golden for the MD. This fall in one of my fav MD spots which was unfortunaely over run by wolves for the first time I witnessed an interesting pattern where the wolves woudl put the run on the deer in the timber, ever increasingly as the timber got thicker as well in cases of regen or alder thickets etc. However when i would track the deer and wolves in the snow and approached steep open rocky bluffs, the wolves gave up and circled back down. It's in these open fir bluffs where the MD stott is extremely affective both uphill or down covering ground very quickly with a few simple stotts. When I finally managed to bounce some bucks that were ultra spooky, they were either up or down the open ridges before I could spell R-U-T.....It was impressive to see an alerted buck cover 7 to 8 meters of ground in one stott usually over deadfall or rock outcrops......The pooches retreated to the flatter ground where they stood a better chance.

[dana]

Rattler,
Like has been said countless, countless times on this site, point restrictions will NOT increase your ability to go out ans see deer and deer sign. So, even though you have read it countless times, why do you think it some how will work? I posed that question to you and your buddy numerous times on that other thread and you both have not answered it. Tell me how? As I havew given you countless examples of why the harvest will not change with point restrictions. Point restrictions do not mean more deer. I know you and your buddy are good guys, hunt hard and the whole nine yards, but your are misguided in your thinking. And even though you 2 may not want the LEH system, it's coming with every mumble and grumble that the hunters in the Koots make. By vocalizing again and again your desire for point restrictions, when that happens and a year or 2 later, things haven't changed in your deer sightings, the grumble will get louder. There are many a misguided trophy hunter pushing the agenda in the Koots and you will get what you really don't want.

[hunter1993ap]

Well without throwing insults, which you can't seem to do and only embarrass yourself, I have the following response.

Reducing the WT bag limit makes sense right now given the abnormally high predator numbers. We use to pass on a few bucks, but that hasn't been the case for several years now. My reasons for limit/point reductions has absolutely nothing to do with restricting hunter opportunities/competition, or increasing trophy bucks. I want to be able to go out and see deer and deer sign, which right now is a difficult thing to do. I want nothing to do with a LEH system, especially like the system we have here in BC. I only want to ensure we have sustainable deer populations and to do that sometimes restricting bag limits and having point restrictions are necessary.
this is why we all go out. i want to see deer in general, bucks, and trophy bucks. i dont know how to get it back to what it used to be, i know there are still some big deer left but they are getting harder and harder to find. i have noticed a population decrease in general, not just big bucks.

[The Dude]

Wait a minute.....if Willy442 was the Sheep Sherriff......

Does that make Dana the Mulie Marshall?

[hunter1947]

Lets say we put one buck in a penned area as for two does the two does each one fawns they shot the two fawns whats left for recruitment ??? the way I see it is the same has been happening out in the hunting field ,game management GOS on mule deer where numbers are low in different regions.. .

[The Dude]

Lets say we put one buck in a penned area as for two does the two does each two fawns they shot the two fawns whats left for recruitment ??? the way I see it is the same has been happening out in the hunting field ,game management GOS on mule deer where numbers are low in different regions.. .

Two fawns and two adult does.

[hunter1947]

Two fawns and two adult does.

Dude man o man you are sure on the ball this early morning LOL I changed my posting ,,,good pick up on my post LOL..

[The Dude]

LOL, good morning Wayne.

[frenchbar]

Wait a minute.....if Willy442 was the Sheep Sherriff......

Does that make Dana the Mulie Marshall?

cowabunga dude..haha ..that made my morning !

[LBM]

Wait a minute.....if Willy442 was the Sheep Sherriff......

Does that make Dana the Mulie Marshall?

Wouldnt it be the Wannabee mulie marshall.

[Jack Russell]

some guys are just not made for the "internet"... either they are too easily bruised, or perhaps too brusque to get the point across in this overly sensitive politically corrected "play nice in the sandbox" mentality of today.... I don't know Dana from page 8 in the loggers manual, but I just have not seen him cross the line without first stating his observations as they are - its when others can't accept some of these statements (or just ideas), that things start to unwind...I am not hanging anyone here, just to be clear. If he gives someone some "stick" online, so what - grow a pair. The comment does not last long, and the topic is quickly back on the rails...

There is a lot to learn from guys like him - just got to pick around and identify the nugget(s).

Mulie marshall? C'mon....the guy lives eats and breathes mule deer and hunting in general. As far as I'm concerned, we need more hunters like him talking about the animals and hunting, not number crunchers promoting how many jobs hunters provide to the economy (see open chat post).

Have at 'er, boys....

[Husky7mm]

Well I agree with both Dana and One Shot, even though that is a contradiction...... They are taking about different experiences in different country. Both shared very good info. I am sure fire has very different effects depending on the level of intensity and the soil composition. I am sure that the beatle killed forests in different areas, elevation, aspects have both a positive and negative effect. There is even some differnences in mule deer from area to area.
Moving on, Dana I am not "jumping" on you merely disagreeing with some of what you have stated. I think you have underestamated the level of predation here in at least the EK, both 4 legged and 2 legged. Pray your elk dont take off, people are crazy about elk any elk, your country will fill up with thousands of hunters for three months straight, everyone wants to take something home, some are conservative some are pigs. The deer will pay the price. Many don't care if there is an over harvest, they travelled to get there they will just travel somewhere else next year if it doesnt work out......Peaks and valleys
As stated before what escapes a pack of 25+ wolves...... not much
I am not against any buck season and i have said it before, but it doesnt work here, and likely the 4 point season was not helping to produce the big bucks myself and many others were/ are hoping for. The recreational demand for mule deer in this area simply exceeds the supply. Restrictions are needed. The 4 point season just delays the big harvest for one more year, people will "get" them either way.......
I have said it before and I'll say it again the harvest of mule deer bucks in the EK is at least 80% of what ever is legal. That number likely went DOWN with any buck season, but it makes for pretty poor hunting opportunities the following.
Now to be clear I am talking about the huntable portion of the mule deer, not the women and children.
Last year I hunted a ton and I saw only 2 four point mule deer, a nice one and a dinker, and just a handful of small bucks.... hunted a ton! High, low, middle, thick shit, open timber, burns ex.... Pretty sad and during that time I noted less mule deer does and fawn than previous years.
This year I hunted even MORE ( at least 45 outings) and I didnt even see a 4 point during the light of day. One dandy in the dark crawling out of the timber in the dark on the last day I could hunt. I saw a few more small bucks, but I hunted more and it was just a few. I saw a few less does, but they did seem to almost all still have their fawns. Was happy about that.

The last few years my whitetail experience was almost the same as the mule deer, Only difference was there were less does in 2011 and even less in 2012 but they almost always have their fawns.

I believe those hunting experiences are directly related to the regualtions and what is open to harvested.
Where will hunter recruitment, and "opportuntiy " be when all the "easy" game is gone????

BTW BigBen was being scarcastic.....

[*bcgold*]

Well said Jack, but I will call him a mule deer guru. Alot guys have good points.

[Husky7mm]

Ceanothus is created every year on non traditional winter range around slash pile burns all through this country, hundreds of piles every year.
It seems best when it is present mid elevation under the big trees mostly fir, where snow interception is a factor. Persribed burns in a selective logged areas with a good slope would be huge for mule deer.

[GoatGuy]

Coach,
I'm on the same page as my brother regarding that Study. It was out of WA and they ain't to be trusted. Cougars are not the issue. If houndsmen weren't such Bullshitters, you'd realize that. They don't tree tons a year. Heck, most spend most of their time hunting dogs not cougars. And because they lost the dogs for 3 days, the dogs must have been under a tree right? Truth is, there ain't a ton of lions around. One cat can cover a ton of ground and if a deer hunter sees a set of tracks, they jump to the conclusion the place is crawling with them. Hell, mule deer hunters in Utah are whinning way more the the Koots hunters above the lack of deer and they have what a whopping 5 whitetails in the entire state. So, they jump on lions as the main issue. And yet every serious houndsman says they are hunting their asses off and have a hard time finding much to chase. So, who do ya believe? Deer hunters who didn't see that magical 200 inchers this season, or houndsmen who say they can't find anything to chase?

There have been plenty of collared cats and collared mule deer that have shown those problems related to wt, not just in washington state.

Most people would be very, very surprised the number of cougars living in the EK, right on winter range, all year long. And that isn't from seeing tracks in the snow.

[Husky7mm]

The provincal government should once and for all claim the town deer as theirs. The deer we are culling and no one wants to pay the bill for. Say "we want them", and utilize them as stock for new genes to built up the populations in the wilderness where they are disappearing from. Place them in the inhanced areas they will hopfully be creating. It could be a partnership project between the province, hydro, the big mines, habitat trust, conservation fund, BCWF, hunting groups and clubs. It would take some of the burden off the tax payer. It has not been done before. Be a leader instead of a follower. Stop the problem when its small scale. Caribou would not be in the predicament they are today if something was done 20 yrs ago......

[LBM]

There have been plenty of collared cats and collared mule deer that have shown those problems related to wt, not just in washington state.

Most people would be very, very surprised the number of cougars living in the EK, right on winter range, all year long. And that isn't from seeing tracks in the snow.

I am surprised how few cougars there are in various parts of the EK, thats the problem it has to be looked at or managed smaller then east or west kootney has to be broken down to pretty much each MU.
So how many collared cats is there in the EK right now,which portions of the EK, who is doing the study and how long has it been going on for.

[Husky7mm]

Spoken like a true kitty lover....

[coach]

Spoken like a true kitty lover....

Yup.. What was Dana saying about houndsmen?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I am surprised how few cougars there are in various parts of the EK, thats the problem it has to be looked at or managed smaller then east or west kootney has to be broken down to pretty much each MU.
So how many collared cats is there in the EK right now,which portions of the EK, who is doing the study and how long has it been going on for.

Just watched a very interesting show on National Geographic Wild called "Cougars: Ninjas of Jackson Hole". Their cat population down there has crashed pretty hard...and while the study was inconclusive at this point it was believed to be due to the sharp increase in the wolf population along with an increase in g bears.
Recruitment had pretty much dropped off the charts.

SSS

[GoatGuy]

I am surprised how few cougars there are in various parts of the EK, thats the problem it has to be looked at or managed smaller then east or west kootney has to be broken down to pretty much each MU.
So how many collared cats is there in the EK right now,which portions of the EK, who is doing the study and how long has it been going on for.

Collars are tied in to cariboo recovery. You can read about it when the paper's written. Unfortunately there are a few people who have chosen to shoot collared cats in the past.

[bugler]

Not an over abundance of big cats here (which may be part of the problem) but there are sure plenty of cats. Saw three from my treestand on Friday, female with big kits I guess, they all looked the same. Did not come close enough for the bow or one would have gone down.

When we go cat hunting on a good snow day we usually have multiple tracks to choose from. The guys don't always want to let the dogs go because often all the tracks are on the small side. We gotta lose (or at least greatly increase) that female quota.

[horshur]

husky the caribou's problems started in the 1920's....even earlier. Check up on some local history..hearabouts the chilcotins and the shuswap had a war....(Fight lake in Wells Grey).... over the Caribou because they were getting less in number.

[one-shot-wonder]

Ceanothus is created every year on non traditional winter range around slash pile burns all through this country, hundreds of piles every year.
It seems best when it is present mid elevation under the big trees mostly fir, where snow interception is a factor. Persribed burns in a selective logged areas with a good slope would be huge for mule deer.

True...seeds can lie dormant for hundreds of years, Ceanothus are typically dependent on forest fires to trigger germination.Unfortunately broadcast burning of clear cuts post harvest has gone to the way side.....

[dana]

Matt is always mentioning Ceanothus to me to get me to focus our shed hunting efforts on areas we find it. What I have been noting in a lot of the areas I hunt, it doesn't see much browse activity. Yet, the False Box and young aspen growing beside it sees incredible browsing. Again, that is just an observation from some of my areas. It really doesn't grow that much here, as it is more of a dry site indicator and we have a lot of WET here. ;) But I do agree with One Shot that it is sad that broadcast burning is pretty much a thing of the past. I certainly see a lot more game using old broadcast burned blocks than in mechanical site prep blocks.

[one-shot-wonder]

Steve I am curious if that neck of the woods had a bunch it in the 50's back in the fire days, it actually ahs a relatively short life span usually 8-10 years........Aspen is a large target for mule deer and they require fire for disturbance and regeneration as well....a common theme, I know I sound like a broken record.
Maybe time for you and the crew to take up smoking! :)

[dana]

In Caribou areas, Fire was the trigger of their demise. And now there are some that think the Caribou are on the verge of recovery because what burned back in the 20's is now suitable habitat again. We've got a world renowed scientist in town that has stated that numerous times in last few months in our local paper. The thing he is missing is this new old growth is dying and dead and is a ticking timebomb for a repeat of 1926. The pine beetle did it's thing. Now the spruce beetle is taking all the remaining live trees. History has a way of repeating itself. If a lightning strike doesn't cause it, one of the hundreds of Tourists will.

[Husky7mm]

husky the caribou's problems started in the 1920's....even earlier. Check up on some local history..hearabouts the chilcotins and the shuswap had a war....(Fight lake in Wells Grey).... over the Caribou because they were getting less in number.
I am sure you are correct, but please note that not much more than 20-30 years ago there was a leh season here for them and today there is next to no hope of their recovery aside from a massive effort, and to the expence of all other ungulates....I believe the mule deer in the purcells will go the same way, and would like to see that curbed, now while it still realistic.

[dana]

Steve I am curious if that neck of the woods had a bunch it in the 50's back in the fire days, it actually ahs a relatively short life span usually 8-10 years........Aspen is a large target for mule deer and they require fire for disturbance and regeneration as well....a common theme, I know I sound like a broken record.
Maybe time for you and the crew to take up smoking! :)

The big fires here were in the dust bowl of the 20's and 30's. Somehow society has forgoten those days when they talk about our current Global Warming conditions. ;) Sure were some monster muleys killed back in those days.

[LBM]

Collars are tied in to cariboo recovery. You can read about it when the paper's written. Unfortunately there are a few people who have chosen to shoot collared cats in the past.

So not many collared cats then and only in a few MU. Yes its to bad when the animals being studied are shot Im guessing you would think the same way about a collared wolf. Heck there was even guys on here talking about shooting the collared wolfs and throwing the collar on a train or semi just to screw with the study/bios. So did the caribou from the transplant area that was heading north by brisco turn back or keep going.

[Husky7mm]

Have not seen much evidence of the ceanothus being browsed on either but I have found whats left of the old chewed up and chalky sheds near or right in them.....I suspected they were more for a dry country plant, thanks for confirming that.

[dana]

Did you see what just happened in the States with a hunter shooting a collared wolf outside of Jellystone. Turned out the wolf was the 'most famous wolf ever' due to it not having fear of humans with cameras. The death of the famous shewolf just caused them to CANCEL the wolf hunt completely in that State. Imagine fighting for years to get wolves delisted and put under the management of the State rather than protected by the Feds. Years and years of battling with the Antis and winning in court and then have some hunter throw that completely away by pulling the pin on one with a collar.

[LBM]

Did you see what just happened in the States with a hunter shooting a collared wolf outside of Jellystone. Turned out the wolf was the 'most famous wolf ever' due to it not having fear of humans with cameras. The death of the famous shewolf just caused them to CANCEL the wolf hunt completely in that State. Imagine fighting for years to get wolves delisted and put under the management of the State rather than protected by the Feds. Years and years of battling with the Antis and winning in court and then have some hunter throw that completely away by pulling the pin on one with a collar.
In the whole state or just areas around the park?

[Husky7mm]

Did you see what just happened in the States with a hunter shooting a collared wolf outside of Jellystone. Turned out the wolf was the 'most famous wolf ever' due to it not having fear of humans with cameras. The death of the famous shewolf just caused them to CANCEL the wolf hunt completely in that State. Imagine fighting for years to get wolves delisted and put under the management of the State rather than protected by the Feds. Years and years of battling with the Antis and winning in court and then have some hunter throw that completely away by pulling the pin on one with a collar.

crazy, but i doubt that will be that!

[dana]

In the whole state or just areas around the park?

In the whole state!

[The Dude]

Did you see what just happened in the States with a hunter shooting a collared wolf outside of Jellystone. Turned out the wolf was the 'most famous wolf ever' due to it not having fear of humans with cameras. The death of the famous shewolf just caused them to CANCEL the wolf hunt completely in that State. Imagine fighting for years to get wolves delisted and put under the management of the State rather than protected by the Feds. Years and years of battling with the Antis and winning in court and then have some hunter throw that completely away by pulling the pin on one with a collar.

It was not cancelled, it was put on hold due to public outcry.
Hopefully it will be re-instated. The State is Montana, it's around the town of Gardiner only, and it's temporary.

[LBM]

It was not cancelled, it was put on hold due to public outcry.
Hopefully it will be re-instated. The State is Montana, it's around the town of Gardiner only, and it's temporary.


Thats all ive seen as well that it is just a few zones around the park that have been closed.

[horshur]

Actually goes along with my hare-brained theory that introducing Moose and Whitetails into non-historic areas supports Wolf numbers, and a by-product of increased Mule Deer predation.

I know of a place that was historically a caribou area and a big fire went through in 1928......area became a big moose area with mule deer and some whitetails....

accordingly with the moose keeping predator numbers very high it should be tough for mulies...there are still mule deer and a few whitetails along with good numbers of wolf and cougar....they are(predators) protected.


I think that many populations due to multiple reasons should never have existed at some densities that we have considered normal.......


Also.....Not sure we can underestimate what predator pressure does for the species. ...not just for the prey but the predator as well.

I think populations that have been coddled due to circumstance when faced with a "new old" adversary will be challenged or maybe better said changed. A deer population that has not faced constant wolf predation is going to take a tumble and whether they adapt and change behaviour or those deer that had a different behaviour breed because they survived to pass there genes.The deer herd that has heavy predation is going to look alot different in what areas they use and when. They will most likely be tougher to hunt.

One thing to think about regarding the doe seasons, given the nature of whitetails, is sooner then later our pressure on the does would see them get smart ...I am sure the whitetails got a whole lot harder to hunt.

[Brambles]

On the other thread you and your partner in crime said you were against the WT doe hunt. Now suddenly you are for it again? And what about your other buddy, the meat hunter who came to your defense. He said you two pass on more bucks than anyone. Sooooo, who are we to believe. Is there really a deer shortage in the WK or have you 2 just not seen the 'right' buck that is to your standards, so you want everyone to change for your selfish ambitions????? Instead of being butthurt, grow some skin and admit you want trophy bucks and that is why you are pushing your wants for season closures. Meanwhile, nothing you do will instantly grow that magical buck you are looking for. So once you get the season closures, you then will start pushing for more restrictions. Soon, we'll have a LEH system like the states where the only ones that are shooting the big bucks are those with the big $$$ bucks.


Obviously you have a poor memory or just don't read well, I explained my stance on the Whitetail doe season on the last thread. You misquoting me to prove your argument when I haven't even commented on this thread to date is sort of underhanded.
So now again for the simple people!! I don't oppose the Whitetail doe season, what I did oppose was the increase in regional bag limit which allowed the harvest of 2 does.

As far as Mcrae posting up and saying we're passing up ton's of bucks, its all subjective. We hunted out of region 4 this year for the opener and passed on a fair number of bucks but nothing worth cancelling a tag or beating up our bodies over. I hunted the last 3 weeks of our season every day, wind snow, rain, sleet. Now I'm the first to admit that the weather played a huge roll in the deer sightings this year late season, probably the worst November for weather I've hunted. I passed on two 4 points in 3 weeks, biggest maybe 140, one anybuck and seen half dozen does, all in 3 weeks of hunting. There is a downward trend on deer sightings, and even with low hunting pressure in some area's we hunt the deer are spooky as hell, but they have been in these valley's for quite a while.

I'm not ready to say "they sky is falling", if we had a great weather year this late season and deer sightings were still in the tank then I'd be concerned a bit more, but we had a TRUELY misserable November. Which was unfortunate because October was shaping up to be a banner year, hopes were high.

I often wonder what hunting to Dec 10th would be like, after our season closed the weather improved greatly. However I was back to work and was unable to go check the deer out.

Anyways I got some antlers to play with so I'm outta here.

[mcrae]

" Brambles and his partner in crime see and pass on more mule deer in a season than most of us will see in a lifetime... If they are not seeing the deer and it has them concerned I am inclined to listen."

This was what I actually said as well.... Not sure I ever said they where seeing tons of deer this year! That was the whole point of that comment. If those two guys are not running into deer then I am inclined to listen. Keep in mind my comments are also in relation to Region 4 and the W.Koots.

[d6dan]

The lack of deer in southeast BC has made the Time Colonist take notice.
http://www.timescolonist.com/news/national/dwindling-deer-numbers-in-southeast-b-c-worry-hunters-1.27687

[dana]

I will tell a story from several years ago in Clearwater as it really relates well to the West Koots and actually a lot of Southern BC.

Back in the 90's I was consulting a lot for Slocan's Vavenby operation. During the NDP era, there were a ton of hoops to jump through to get blocks approved for harvesting and a lot of public consultation. Slocan had proposed a large patch clearcut block above Blackpool. In those days, patches were designed to be 1-5 ha. in size and were covered off in one giant administrative block that would range from 600-800 ha in size. The 1-5 ha opening were consistant in the Kamloops Land Resource Management Plan for mule deer winter range, although the KRLMP did not include the Blackpool area as Critical Mule Deer Winter Range at that time. So, during one of the public meeting open houses for their development plan, a bunch of hunters saw the large 600-800 ha blob on the map and assumed Slocan was going to clearcut the entire hillside. They banded together and delivered flyers to every home about a protest meeting at the Blackpool hall. They rallied the troops and had a very large turnout. I was invited to the meeting by the Slocan reps because I was a muley nut and they knew I probably would have something to say. So I went. I sat in this meeting with a bunch of angry resisdents screaming how the mule deer were all going to die because of this proposal. As a matter of fact, Slocan had logged a couple small 20-40 ha blocks above this area a few years previously and that killed off all the deer in the area. Hunter after hunter testified how that season they saw virtually no deer on that hillside and it was all Slocan's fault. Slocan's operational manager was stunned and tongue tied and didn't know a thing about mule deer and didn't know how to address this angry mob. Randy Harris was based out of Clearwater MOF back in those days and he had come as an observer to the meeting. I sat and took it all in and after I heard hunter after hunter declared the deer were all dead, I finally had enough and I stood up to share my thoughts. And those that think I just have an internet hard-ass attitude, it actually shows up in real life too and I let these hunters have it. The hunting season that these hunters saw no deer what so ever was actually a El Nino year and we had zero snow even in the highcountry all the way till Christmas. I hunted that late season in a t-shirt and had to actually hunt just below treeline the last week of the season (Dec) to find deer. All these deer that all these hunters declared died, were actually sunning themselves in the highcountry way way above the wintering grounds that all these hunters were hunting. They said, no way, they are all dead. I said, if that is the case how come the spring range was plugged full of deer and how come there were no corpses littered all over the hills with deer that so-called died from 2 small clearcuts on a mountain side. Where was their evidence? They had none. I told them, don't worry about the deer, they are doing just fine and if we get a fall with snow, they deer would be right back where they used to be. That following season, I was right. After I spoke, no other hunters took the mike as I had showed them their ignorance. The Slocan operational manager came over and shook my hand and thanked me for my insight, as did Randy Harris.

I tell this story cause I have seen the same scenerio play out numerous times over the years. It don't matter if it is the big bad logging company or wolves or cougars or too many out-of-town hunters, the sky is falling attitude rears it's ugly head when hunters have a bad hunting season. This past season was no different than that El Nino year except the high country had some snow. I was hunting in a t-shirt during what should have been the peek of the rut and I was actually swatting bugs instead of seeing deer. The conditions were incredibly crunchy with the fact we had very little rain all fall and every twig would snap like a cannon going off when you stepped on it. I had a 7 day period were all I saw was 4 deer total. Did here a lot of 'Thump, Thump, Thump' over that same period. Soooo, are the deer all dead or was the conditions just bad for hunting?

[Brambles]

Isn't that what I just said?

[mcrae]

I am gonna be totally honest I am not much of mule deer hunter if compared to some of you guys on here. I think there are some issues in the W.Koots but I don't feel its all doom and gloom. I didn't see a single 4 point buck while hunting mule deer this year in November. I don't for a second think there are no deer. I just wasn't looking in the right spot. I personally didn't figure them out in the area I was hunting. Its an area I know and hunt but something changed.... Are the deer all gone? No I don't think so. They changed and I didn't see or understand the change and didn't find em. Better luck next year. It doesn't mean I don't think there are issues because I do agree with both sides on many points in this debate. For me personally I think the sneaky buggers are around they are just smarter than me most of the time. We have never had high numbers of deer in the area's I hunt mulies so it can be a challenge to find them...

Last Mulie buck I shot was 2007...

My whole point sticking up for Brambles and Rattler is these guys do know how to find them and usually do... This year as Brambles said was a tough year. I believe we have some issues. Will restrictive seasons help? I don't feel they will but I am willing to listen too what guys with more "mulie" expereince are saying. I do agree though that in the last 5 years wolves have really moved in.... Many issues I think need to be looked at.

However if I get skunked next year then there are no deer and its all Dana's fault LOL...

[MattB]

In general, people are doom and gloom. Remember acid rain? What happened with hearing about that? Climate change may go the same route. People seem to have the ned to find things to worry about, maybe hunters are the same way.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I often wonder what hunting to Dec 10th would be like, after our season closed the weather improved greatly. However I was back to work and was unable to go check the deer out.

Anyways I got some antlers to play with so I'm outta here.

Chatted with someone the other day who hunted the final weekend of the Reg3 season. Saw 11 4pt mulies in 2 days and he was hunting at 6000' in elevation. Only ~1' of snow.

Who's looking at 6000' for mulies on December 8th??

No wonder the sky is falling in everyone else's eyes.

SSS

[Lillypuff]

I do not spend alot of time in the Kootenays and I did not go out there this year. However last year we went too a spot a friend knows over towards Invermere where we saw approx- 30 to 50 mule deer a day although mostly does there were at least 5 bucks a day but all small. Most of our hunting was sitting on our butts and glassing this was the remembrence day weekend. The initial spot we went we saw 0 as the wolves had moved in and the deer must have been holed up in the thick stuff. The whitetail hunting was over within 15 minutes of the only morning we had hunted them both basket fours.
It can`t all be doom and gloom out there. The elk and whitetail seem too be there in good numbers why don`t we enjoy what is available and quit bitching about what is not.
This being said is it really that bad over that way

[Husky7mm]

Well i hunt that high a bunch, I hunt as high as I can. I muscle my way up by quad or chained up truck, or post holeing through the snow. Sometimes when you get up high and get through the deep snow and get in the right country or aspect the snow actually backs off, and you have the whole mountain to yourself. Fack i even have a tracked ATV! 2 really bad years in a row!!?? Almost everyone having the same experience, even hard core mule nuts that most anybody could learn from......... Been lots of crunch condtions in the Koot's, lots of t-shirt weather an lots of late winters. Dana when are you gonna stop speaking for the people of south eastern BC? Your gonna get pie in your face or worse eat crow. The deer are down! WTF do you know about it here from there? The main butcher had 3 mulies in this year......

[dana]

2 in a row? Geeze, must be bad. I remember having 3 or 4 bad in a row and then having the right conditions and suddenly deer everywhere. Actually, been at this game for quite sometime and I've had that experience several times. I can honestly say I've had $hitty hunting here since 2007. 07 was brutal but I did manage to kill a 200 incher that year. 08 was brutal. 09 was brutal and 2010 was horrid with a small window of tremendous. 2011 was low but better than 2010. 2012 was great in early Sept, pretty much sucked for the rest of the season. That is the way the cookie crumbles. I once wrote an article in Trophy Hunter about my 2003 season. It was titled, "3 Great Days in a Season from Hell!" That was it. 3 days in a 3 month period. If I hadn't been hunting those 3 days, I would have missed it. Sooo, all this bad mule deer hunting, years worth, all happening in the so-called Land of Milk and Honey??? Yup!
As for butchers, we don't even have one anymore. Not enough business. We just lost a CO to a transfer. I talked our remaining CO and asked him if they were going to bring another one in. He said, probably not. No need. No one hunts here anymore.

[Husky7mm]

Sure it been on a down turn since 2006 here abouts too. I just hunted much harder every year after that, for mulies anyway.... hunted hard learned more areas, went out more, and saw a bit less albeit with the extra effort. The deer are down, mulies first and formost. Why do you want to contradict that, and put it on the hunters? Your deer are down to big time. Why the denial? Hunters and wolves push the deer around, they moved for sure..... into the next valley full of hunters and wolves...... are your deer starving?

[dana]

I can also assure you in most of my areas, the deer were not high up in deep snow this year. They were rather low. The conditions were just too noisy to sneak up on them and with wolves working several of my spots, that put the deer on a higher than normal alert. They were indeed in the thick crap with a ton of blowdown. I believe the rut occurred mainly at night because of the warm conditions. I didn't see the normal cruising of bucks looking for does. As a matter of fact, I only saw one buck that was rutting and that was very very late. Lipcurling, chasing and breeding. So because I personally didn't see any rutting, should I jump to the conclusion that it didn't happen, or should I go with basic logic that says, I just missed it and wasn't in the right place at the right time. I will go with basic logic. I also know despite hoards of wolves, the deer are still alive and well. Sure, they are not at the highs of 2005 and 2006 but they ain't down to any alarming degree. Region 3 was yet again a top producer for trophy muleys even with our 3 month season and GOS for the entire month of Oct. Wolves didn't get all the big uns.

[dana]

The one surprising thing I noted this fall, the deer will sleep right close to the enemy. 100 yards from a pack feeding on a kill, fresh beds and I actually was able to see the owners of the beds. As for the wolves, I talked to them for over an hour and just couldn't get them to come in to me. Did sit on the kill that evening but to no avail. I also noted that when I did have snow for seeing tracks, the deer refused to venture into open stands and stayed in the tight $hit. The wolves knew they were there as did a she-lion with a tiny kit. The kit was on it's own as she hunted, meaning, that kit probably was going to get killed by the wolves if it didn't tree fast. So while some here jump to conclusions that the cougars are part of the problem, I know when the wolves are around the lion numbers go down too.

[Husky7mm]

Well you will find the sheds in the spring then. I would guess buck does not have to rut very hard with less does to bread and next to nothing for competion. With hunter presure and high predator numbers he is gonna be very carful about every move. I would still rate the last few years as shit! And yes down the road it will get better, the 2&4 legged preds will move on to greener pasture and small bucks will grow it to big ones and the few big ones that slip through the cracks will be monsters.... but it could be much much much better!

[Brambles]

I challenge you to shoot your buck on or before Nov. 10th. Curious how many big bucks would get shot if everyone played by the same rules! Im by no means suggesting cutting everyones seasons, but it would be interesting to know how that changes things.

[Husky7mm]

When I go out after the season closes here I see the same deer.....By then I know the doe groups and have seen each buck in the area multiple time's. If he's not there then he's not coming or doesnt exisit in that area.

[dana]

I saw plenty of does throughout the season. The rut was very spread out. When rutting action is quiet like that, it means the bucks don't wear themselves down, thus having good health going into the winter. Thus meaning they will be in better body condition coming out of the winter. Thus meaning the new green in the spring will go towards antler growth and not into replenshing tired worn out bodies. Thus means bigger antlers for next season.

I have to say Husky, if hunting sucks so bad and you hate it, why are you doing it. If you look at my HAC I posted up I had a blast despite the hard hunting conditions. I have fun when things get hard because I love a challenge. The pursuit is what it is all about for me. The piecing the puzzle together and then having it all fall apart for me to do all over again. While conditions might suck, I have loved each hard season I have hunted and all my hard-earned trophies are way more special to me than if it just had of been easy.

[Brambles]

When I go out after the season closes here I see the same deer.....By then I know the doe groups and have seen each buck in the area multiple time's. If he's not there then he's not coming or doesnt exisit in that area.

Id like to know what terrain type your hunting that your confident your seeing all the bucks and have seen them mulitple times. Where I hunt, if you see em you'd better get a bullet in him as I guarantee you'll probably never see him again.

You in the WK?

[dana]

I challenge you to shoot your buck on or before Nov. 10th. Curious how many big bucks would get shot if everyone played by the same rules! Im by no means suggesting cutting everyones seasons, but it would be interesting to know how that changes things.

Sucks to be you and yet you want more restrictions yet. Don't bitch when you get them.

As for my early season hunting, I spend 2 solid months every year focusing on the kids. Not my time but theirs. I used to hunt early season highcountry for myself when they were little. Not now. I will again when they are gone, but not until then. Had both my kids in on a couple slugs in the early season. The biggest would have been in that 190 NT range. And that ain't the first time hunting with them that they have almost sealed the deal on a monster.

[Husky7mm]

I saw plenty of does throughout the season. The rut was very spread out. When rutting action is quiet like that, it means the bucks don't wear themselves down, thus having good health going into the winter. Thus meaning they will be in better body condition coming out of the winter. Thus meaning the new green in the spring will go towards antler growth and not into replenshing tired worn out bodies. Thus means bigger antlers for next season.

I have to say Husky, if hunting sucks so bad and you hate it, why are you doing it. If you look at my HAC I posted up I had a blast despite the hard hunting conditions. I have fun when things get hard because I love a challenge. The pursuit is what it is all about for me. The piecing the puzzle together and then having it all fall apart for me to do all over again. While conditions might suck, I have loved each hard season I have hunted and all my hard-earned trophies are way more special to me than if it just had of been easy.

Well I dont hate it and never said that. I hunt for mulies instead of elk and sheep and wt cause I am obsessed about them! I cant help it. I had much more chances and close call when I was green. A lot of factors have come into play since then. Can you imagine if it never ever ever had not come into play for you? Every year I hunt harder and learn more and see the opportuntiy dwindle not grow....... I would like to see an upswing!

[dana]

Well I dont hate it and never said that. I hunt for mulies instead of elk and sheep and wt cause I am obsessed about them! I cant help it. I had much more chances and close call when I was green. A lot of factors have come into play since then. Can you imagine if it never ever ever had not come into play for you? Every year I hunt harder and learn more and see the opportuntiy dwindle not grow....... I would like to see an upswing!

All a matter of perspective. A ton of guys wait a lifetime to draw the AZ Strip or spend 10's of Thousands of $$$ with visions of 200 inchers dancing in their heads and they hunt 2 solid weeks and see 10 deer with the biggest buck being a 140 class 4 point. We can hunt where we hunt every year with every bit of the same chance at killing a giant and we get to do it for $15.

[Brambles]

Sucks to be you and yet you want more restrictions yet. Don't bitch when you get them..

I've never suggested a shorter mule deer season, just a modification to how the current season is run, I don't see that as a restriction. And by your logic the same amount of deer are gonna get shot anyways so who's it gonna hurt eh.

I also have no problems with a Anybuck mule deer season, as you said the biggest advantage for me is it weeds out a lot of competition later in the season, not that I have much for competition. What I don't really like is the month long any buck season coenciding with the full GOS elk season. I'm all for culling some inferior bucks but give the little guys a chance IMO.





As for my early season hunting, I spend 2 solid months every year focusing on the kids. Not my time but theirs. I used to hunt early season highcountry for myself when they were little. Not now. I will again when they are gone, but not until then. Had both my kids in on a couple slugs in the early season. The biggest would have been in that 190 NT range. And that ain't the first time hunting with them that they have almost sealed the deal on a monster.


Lets see some pics of these monsters! Thats a full 20" bigger than the biggest NT buck we seen in the alpine this year.



So lets have a civilized conversation without all the jabs and ignorant remarks on both our behalfs.
HOW would losing 30 days off your late season mule deer hunt affect yours and other guys sucess rates?
If next year your region closed on Nov 10th like the WK, How would you modify your hunt? Concentrate more on early season Sept hunts or hope that the magic can happen by Nov 10th for late season hunts?

I certainly know what I'd do if we were granted another 30 days.

Lets keep this G rated, I'm getting sick of the insults on both our behalfs.

[Husky7mm]

Id like to know what terrain type your hunting that your confident your seeing all the bucks and have seen them mulitple times. Where I hunt, if you see em you'd better get a bullet in him as I guarantee you'll probably never see him again.

You in the WK?
No I am in the EK. One area I hunt is a chain of mountains that each get higher. Some logging adjacent to a burn. I can approch from many different drainages. As the snow hits if I do not see deer I will just work the country over and over to cut tracks. I can usually find what made the track. I pay attention to sign, big time, and the doe groups. I see the changes every day. I go back repteatly but find by the end of the season that whats there is there, I continue for a time after to satisfy my curiosity.
That is just one of my spots. To be clear that only works for me after about the 25 of oct, before that if i come across a buck I may never see it agian.
I dont need to see the deer to know whats there per say when it sciffs everyday you can see a pattern in the tracks and the know what has moved to there and joined with what. Also repeated confirmations on the trail cams.

[Husky7mm]

All a matter of perspective. A ton of guys wait a lifetime to draw the AZ Strip or spend 10's of Thousands of $$$ with visions of 200 inchers dancing in their heads and they hunt 2 solid weeks and see 10 deer with the biggest buck being a 140 class 4 point. We can hunt where we hunt every year with every bit of the same chance at killing a giant and we get to do it for $15.

Well whats wrong with the alberta priorty draw system? With-in 2-4 yr you have a shot at what ever your heart desires with a rifle, not a life time. And you can hunt ever year with a bow, every year. Action and siting abound. If you want meat its over pretty quick. Mulies dont have the tenacity of WT and should not be managed like them in this day and age. Advances in hunting and a limited supply..... the supply exceed the demand in so many areas. Can you imagine if sheep were open to the harvest that mulies were?

[horshur]

I am sure you are correct, but please note that not much more than 20-30 years ago there was a leh season here for them and today there is next to no hope of their recovery aside from a massive effort, and to the expence of all other ungulates....I believe the mule deer in the purcells will go the same way, and would like to see that curbed, now while it still realistic.


yes and you take note as well........the restrictions of LEH and then a closed season has not accomplished anything regarding the Caribou!

[Husky7mm]

Yes by then it was to late, my point being they thought there was still a few to spare, some available for harvest, when really they should have dived in and started combating the decline.

[Husky7mm]

With the dramatic pack size increase in the last few years, and the dwindling number of alternate prey in the last few years I will be shocked if there is a caribou left after this winter! Their only hope being if the wolves drop down in elevation and prey on the elk in the main trench.

[Husky7mm]

I think he is referring to Arizona

Yes I know and obviously we don't want that. In the states the draws are open to all the none res, in the entire country. I was refering to a sucessful system that has most people happy. To be clear if a MU has a healthy Mule Deer population and the demand is not grossly in excess of the the supply it should be on GOS.

[dana]

Well whats wrong with the alberta priorty draw system? With-in 2-4 yr you have a shot at what ever your heart desires with a rifle, not a life time. And you can hunt ever year with a bow, every year. Action and siting abound. If you want meat its over pretty quick. Mulies dont have the tenacity of WT and should not be managed like them in this day and age. Advances in hunting and a limited supply..... the supply exceed the demand in so many areas. Can you imagine if sheep were open to the harvest that mulies were?

Region 3 has had 3 months of hunting for 20 years. We have given opportunity to all aspects of hunters, from trophy hunters to meat hunters to kids. And we still have a very healthy population of deer and crank out monsters every year. Why is that???? We are close to the Lower Mainland, the Cariboo, the Koots and the OK. We have the longest season in the province and see a lot of out-of-region hunters taking advantage of those seasons. And yet we still have a healthy population of deer and crank out monsters every year. Again, why is that? As a matter of fact, aside from the Governors Tags that are sold in several States where they owner can hunt almost year round, Region 3 of BC has the longest hunting season for mule deer in NA. And yet we still have a healthy population of deer and crank out monsters every year. Why???? Proper management is why. I don't have to sit on the sidelines every year and wait like those on Limited Draws across NA. I don't have to spend a fortune applying to multiple states racking up the Credit Card charges in the Thousands for a chance to play. I can do it each and every year in my own backyard for a mere $15. I have had the opportunity to see some absolute monsters get killed and I have had the heart race excitement of having absolute giants get away. I have much better hunting than the AZ strip because I can do what I do every year with no sitting on my hands waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting. That is what an LEH system will get ya. Waiting for a chance to burn a tag when you get drawn and the conditions are exactly the same as this year and you then get put at the bottom again and have to Wait and have to Wait and have to Wait. Meanwhile, just as what went on in the States, the rich will be hunting big bucks every years a the GOABC will have the clients that buy the tags to hunt every year. Could you imagine finding that dream buck, waiting for your chance to draw and only to loose that big buck cause some rich ass Yank flys in front of the line and kills that buck. That story happens again and again and again and again in the States. Welcome the Future. Glad you were one to take away my kid's and grandkid's hunting heritage.

[Husky7mm]

Leh in BC and Alberta has not taking anyones future from them. Some years people are hunting moose, elk, and deer. One, 2 ,or all 3 and they are filling those tags. I have filled nearly every LEH permit I have received. We are not the states..... Again to be clear an area with healthy numbers should be on GOS!
I won't be my fault, it will be the push for "opportunity" that will take away the hunting heritage. It will collapse the GOS system, it happening already. With out predator control and wildlife enhancements things will not hold the way they are.

[dana]

Baaabullshit! It is not GOS, it is infact the wannabe trophy hunters that will take away our hunting heritage. LEH killed off thousands of hunters in the past. And because of your desire to be selfish for your own trophy desires, you are willing to see thousands more leave. So, you and your like will indeed be the end of hunting in this province.

The question I have is if you want a big buck so bad, why the hell are you hunting where you are hunting? If you can't find even a trace of a big buck, I think you are hunting in the wrong place. The first rule of killing a big buck is to hunt where one lives. But instead, you keep on hunting where one don't live and blame every one and everything else for your lack of success. Hell, even Rattler said there are GOS seasons in other areas, the meat hunters can go to those areas thus leaving the trophy hunters to hunt their own backyard. Selfish???? Damn rights! Why wouldn't you guys do your research and hunt other areas that do in fact hold big bucks. Trophy hunters are supposed to be ruff tuff guys that can face a challenge, not pussies like you guys.

[604redneck]

Baaabullshit! It is not GOS, it is infact the wannabe trophy hunters that will take away our hunting heritage. LEH killed off thousands of hunters in the past. And because of your desire to be selfish for your own trophy desires, you are willing to see thousands more leave. So, you and your like will indeed be the end of hunting in this province.

The question I have is if you want a big buck so bad, why the hell are you hunting where you are hunting? If you can't find even a trace of a big buck, I think you are hunting in the wrong place. The first rule of killing a big buck is to hunt where one lives. But instead, you keep on hunting where one don't live and blame every one and everything else for your lack of success. Hell, even Rattler said there are GOS seasons in other areas, the meat hunters can go to those areas thus leaving the trophy hunters to hunt their own backyard. Selfish???? Damn rights! Why wouldn't you guys do your research and hunt other areas that do in fact hold big bucks. Trophy hunters are supposed to be ruff tuff guys that can face a challenge, not pussies like you guys.
couldnt agree more on this one, I spent the first 3 years hunting just in the kelowna area not seeing any big bucks and always shooting small deer. This year I changed it up and went to another area and got away from the crowds, ended up missing a 170 class deer but saw alot more deer 140-160 inch this year then i have seen in the last 10 years.....

[Ourea]

Well this pussy just finished loading his pack and is on his way in to check some cams.

I will leave you guys to resolve the mule deer issues, LOL.

[Husky7mm]

Your right, everyone should bounce around to those last few places and focus in on whats left of the big buck producting area's and get them too. If some areas in the provinces are poor for the time being so should the rest. The far traveling hunter, a real blessing to everyone.......
My worrys for mule deer go way farther then big bucks BTW, They, (the mulies) are disappearing from here!

[hunter1947]

Well this pussy just finished loading his pack and is on his way in to check some cams.

I will leave you guys to resolve the mule deer issues, LOL.


Looking forward to seeing your trail cam pic ,,,,,SOON..

[Timbow]

I truely do not believe you are looking at the bigger picture of what LEH really is. Who determines what areas have healthy numbers? What I am getting at, in my experience once a species is put on LEH it never is transfered back to GOS.

I believe if you had mule deer put on LEH due to low numbers and say for arguement sake the numbers bounce back in record numbers and you haven't been drawn in six years, I bet you would be one of the first ones to argue to get it back.

Introducing LEH, the resident hunter is granted one third of the draws. GOBC and local native bands recieve the other in equal shares. The resident hunter once again becomes a statistic. Can you imagine having an LEH for a number of years and all of a sudden one interest group wants to abolish it, do you honestly think the other groups will agree.

Cheers.





Leh in BC and Alberta has not taking anyones future from them. Some years people are hunting moose, elk, and deer. One, 2 ,or all 3 and they are filling those tags. I have filled nearly every LEH permit I have received. We are not the states..... Again to be clear an area with healthy numbers should be on GOS!
I won't be my fault, it will be the push for "opportunity" that will take away the hunting heritage. It will collapse the GOS system, it happening already. With out predator control and wildlife enhancements things will not hold the way they are.

[snareman1234]

in my experience once a species is put on LEH it never is transfered back to GOS.

Whitetail does?

[Seeadler]

Lots of guys just want to shoot a decent buck from the side of the FSR.

[Husky7mm]

Mountian Goats? Cow elk? WK elk? Moose? IIRC it is not a 3 way split, but I would have to research that.

[Husky7mm]

lots of guys just want to shoot a decent buck from the side of the fsr.
Way bigger problem than that! Way way bigger!

[bridger]

If the harvest level for any specie has to be reduced leh should be the very last option. Dana makes a good point unnecessary leh seasons have had a significant impact on hunter numbers

[Husky7mm]

Leh does not need to happen if something is done for the dwindleing supply. No dwindleing supply, or the supply meets the demand, no problem...... We need predator management and Habitat enhancment would be icing on the cake!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Can you imagine if sheep were open to the harvest that mulies were?


You're trying to compare R selected species against k selected species. Try again.

SSS

[Seeadler]

What would LEH do? There is no antlerless season, based solely on my own observations, numbers seem to be down but the Buck/Doe ratio is fine.

[pickle88]

Lots of guys just want to shoot a decent buck from the side of the FSR.

not picken your post out ..theres a ton of them in this thread...
theres way to many arm chair biologists on this thread ...seriously guys..the mule deer population is just fine...
the mule deer guru just makes me laugh..his indian name ....thinks he talks to deer....white mans name ...wannabee deer whisperer . he reminds me of jesse james ...theres noboby who can hold a candle to my talent....thats a quote of his......what i call him ....conceeted..
i seen just as many deer this year than any other year ..
as well as moose in reg 7 where everyone is saying the moose pop is down as much as 50 percent ...

its funny how the sky falls when hunters dont see as much game as they hope too

one of my mulie spots that at the beginning of the season is loaded with mulies and as the season goes on the deer gradually seem to dissapear ...the first few years of me noticeing this ,it concerned me ,thinking where have they gone ...well ,i found there pattern ,they just move down the hill to the south side as the season progresses where the food is more lush ...

[oscar makonka]

Well whats wrong with the alberta priorty draw system? With-in 2-4 yr you have a shot at what ever your heart desires with a rifle, not a life time. And you can hunt ever year with a bow, every year.

Archery hunting for muleys in Alberta is going on draw in a slew of WMU's this coming season.
For 2013, archers will need the draw to bowhunt mule deer in the archery season in the following WMUs – this is a direct result of the trend where bowhunters harvested more than our 15% share (according to the harvest surveys).

100 WMU Series- 104, 108, 110, 130, 132, 134, 138, 140 and 156

200 WMU Series- 206, 208, 210, 214, 216, 220, 221, 222, 224 and 226

300 WMU series – 300, 302, 303, 304, 305, 306, 308 314, 318, 320, 322, 324, 332, 337, 357, 358, 359 and 360

400 WMU Series – 400 and 402

500 WMU Series - 502, 504, 506, 509, 510, 521, 522, 523, 526 and 527

[Husky7mm]

So is that good or bad? Will it be a separate draw? Will the priority points be lower for this? Could you put in for both, in a year?

[Husky7mm]

You're trying to compare R selected species against k selected species. Try again.

SSS
Just because someone put them lower on the totem poll does not mean they are not important. If you don't think they deserve some special type of management doesn't mean many others don't.

[Husky7mm]

How many of you who have been disagreeing with me are from the ek, or wk for that matter?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Just because someone put them lower on the totem poll does not mean they are not important. If you don't think they deserve some special type of management doesn't mean many others don't.

It has nothing to do with "totem poles" but rather reproductive strategies. You can't manage one like the other...although I'm sure it has been tried a time or two in the past.

SSS

[Husky7mm]

Well I have watched many a sheep... They rut hard, very high ram to ewe ratios, always! Every ewe gets it on the whole mountain I am sure. If they are not as fertile as deer there is still lots and lots of recruitment.

[Husky7mm]

True you can not manage one like the other, or the other and thanks for that...

[hunter1947]

I guess we have nothing to worry about regarding the mule deer numbers ,,,don't forget the world is at an end in a few days http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon9.png..

[st99]

So is that good or bad? Will it be a separate draw? Will the priority points be lower for this? Could you put in for both, in a year?

Id say, bad, cause on the alberta forum, other than a few jealous who can't kill big bucks, nobody agree with that. In alberta more and more hunt are getting on a draw, at the end the herd doesn't get better, but the number of poacher increase.

[oscar makonka]

I think it's a good thing at least in my area the muleys are way down in population. As far as I know it will not be a seperate draw, if you get a draw you can use it in archery or rifle season, they are just doing away with the general archery mule deer licence in those areas.

[Seeadler]

How would LEH help the population (even assuming it is in trouble)? Sounds to me that some people just want to reduce the competition.

[Jimmy4x4]

Sounds to me that some people just want to reduce the competition.

the correct answer

[oscar makonka]

How would LEH help the population (even assuming it is in trouble)? Sounds to me that some people just want to reduce the competition.

Huh??.......Instead of letting everyone who wants a tag go shoot one, putting it on draw only allows very few tags, instead of having hundreds or even thousands of people in a WMU all shooting deer on over the counter general tags they can limit it to 5-10-50 or how ever many critters they figure the population can handle being harvested. Mule deer on the prairies are very easily overharvested, they have nowhere to hide or are to stupid to, kinda trusting, or dumb, whatever you want to call it, on the other hand whitetails seem to be able to figure out and know when to haul their asses out of Dodge when their lives are in danger.

Sorry for the interuption, how bout we get back to the BC mule deer discussion

[Seeadler]

Huh??.......Instead of letting everyone who wants a tag go shoot one, putting it on draw only allows very few tags, instead of having hundreds or even thousands of people in a WMU all shooting deer on over the counter general tags they can limit it to 5-10-50 or how ever many critters they figure the population can handle being harvested. Mule deer on the prairies are very easily overharvested, they have nowhere to hide or are to stupid to, kinda trusting, or dumb, whatever you want to call it, on the other hand whitetails seem to be able to figure out and know when to haul their asses out of Dodge when their lives are in danger.

Sorry for the interuption, how bout we get back to the BC mule deer discussion

Is there any indication that the buck/doe ratio is poor? Based solely on my own observations this past season, I estimate it at least 20:100 in the EK. LEH is completely unneccessary. BC isn't Alberta, there are lots of places to hide, there aren't roads every mile either. As long as there are enough bucks to breed the does, there is no need for restrictions on the buck harvest. The people who want LEH are the people who want to get rid of the competition and have a slam dunk hunt, or think the only way they are going to shoot a big buck is via LEH or a 4 point season, or in other words, if other people weren't shooting little bucks, they could get a big one.

In my opinion, as long as elk numbers are as high as they are, the MD population will never be what it was in the EK.

[oscar makonka]

Sorry Seedler, I misunderstood, I thought your were referring to my replies to Husky and ST99 mentioning the draws in Alberta and my reasons about why we need archery to go on draw in some areas of Alberta. I know nothing about the situation in BC, what I said dosen't apply over there.

[frenchbar]

Sorry Seedler, I misunderstood, I thought your were referring to my replies to Husky and ST99 mentioning the draws in Alberta and my reasons about why we need archery to go on draw in some areas of Alberta. I know nothing about the situation in BC, what I said dosen't apply over there.

smartn up and get your shit together :mrgreen:

[Mulie_Hunter]

I personally don't have any complaints about the deer populations this year, The reduced bag limits and restrictions in my neck of the woods is working wonders on the buck component, as well the quality of those bucks is getting better every year. I'm not an expert; however bitching about the weather never helped me kill bigger bucks or see more deer. I had a 170 class 4 point breeding a doe on my front lawn on the last day of the season, shit as I type this there are 8 does and fawns walking across my yard. They're out there, just cause they aren't standing in the same spot they were last year doesn't mean they aren't there.

Cheers!

[GoatGuy]

Well whats wrong with the alberta priorty draw system? With-in 2-4 yr you have a shot at what ever your heart desires with a rifle, not a life time. And you can hunt ever year with a bow, every year. Action and siting abound. If you want meat its over pretty quick. Mulies dont have the tenacity of WT and should not be managed like them in this day and age. Advances in hunting and a limited supply..... the supply exceed the demand in so many areas. Can you imagine if sheep were open to the harvest that mulies were?
When you go into draw systems as a solution for the individual it kills credibility. At that point it isn't about deer it's about the hunter and what he/she wants for themselves, not for wildlife. The wild comparison between harvest rates for sheep compared to deer illustrates that.

its unfortunate, but quite often after pages of discussion on these topics the same issue rears its head, and its never about wildlife it's about the hunter wanting bigger bucks.

[Husky7mm]

Bigger bucks, that would be nice, but I think were past that point in the problem. I more worried about the deer in general now. If the current "system" worked proper than a few big bucks to go around would be the by product of it. After years and years of of year round hard hunting, the pattern is clear for the time being. Low recuitment..... I dont even see bucks to pass anymore, folks that wouldnt pass on small bucks and dont put in the time are turning up nothing. I was recently a guest on the cougar hunt, 13 different fresh tracks(mostly she cats and kits), 2 separate visuals, multiple cats in the tree, all in one day on a 1/4 tank of fuel. Every treed up little knob had so many cougar tracks on it it was hard to even figure out what to do. Thats a problem, and that just one of them.... How can it go on the way it is without changing something?
I dont think LEH is the answer but I think its a valid topic in this discussion. If it "kills" credibility, why have anything on it?

[horshur]

Bigger bucks, that would be nice, but I think were past that point in the problem. I more worried about the deer in general now. If the current "system" worked proper than a few big bucks to go around would be the by product of it. After years and years of of year round hard hunting, the pattern is clear for the time being. Low recuitment..... I dont even see bucks to pass anymore, folks that wouldnt pass on small bucks and dont put in the time are turning up nothing. I was recently a guest on the cougar hunt, 13 different fresh tracks(mostly she cats and kits), 2 separate visuals, multiple cats in the tree, all in one day on a 1/4 tank of fuel. Every treed up little knob had so many cougar tracks on it it was hard to even figure out what to do. Thats a problem, and that just one of them.... How can it go on the way it is without changing something?
I dont think LEH is the answer but I think its a valid topic in this discussion. If it "kills" credibility, why have anything on it?

how many cats could it take to make the tracks?....

so much is left to conjecture...were there 13 diferent cougars or did one cougar step off thirteen paces?

do you really think that if you let loose on each of the thirteen tracks that eventually the dogs would tree thirteen seperate individuals??

[Husky7mm]

Well, a fresh skiff of snow and a few differnet ranges, They were not all individuals, so I am not off by much. At least 5 different singles, plus 2 different she cats with 1 kit each and one with 2 kits. So to be more conservitive, 12.... The word polluted comes to mind...

[GoatGuy]

Bigger bucks, that would be nice, but I think were past that point in the problem. I more worried about the deer in general now. If the current "system" worked proper than a few big bucks to go around would be the by product of it. After years and years of of year round hard hunting, the pattern is clear for the time being. Low recuitment..... I dont even see bucks to pass anymore, folks that wouldnt pass on small bucks and dont put in the time are turning up nothing. I was recently a guest on the cougar hunt, 13 different fresh tracks(mostly she cats and kits), 2 separate visuals, multiple cats in the tree, all in one day on a 1/4 tank of fuel. Every treed up little knob had so many cougar tracks on it it was hard to even figure out what to do. Thats a problem, and that just one of them.... How can it go on the way it is without changing something?
I dont think LEH is the answer but I think its a valid topic in this discussion. If it "kills" credibility, why have anything on it?
All my buddies that hunt in the ek pass up 4 pts and they all shoot 4 pts if they want. Got a buddy that shot a 190 class in the ek this year. They might not be on every knob but they're there, just like every other spot in the province.


The focus should be on making more deer and it isn't. There's more than enough people in the province that want to talk about self-absorbed fictitious problems. Not enough time in the day to bother with the folks that are tuned in to Fox News.

[OutWest]

All my buddies that hunt in the ek pass up 4 pts and they all shoot 4 pts if they want. Got a buddy that shot a 190 class in the ek this year. They might not be on every knob but they're there, just like every other spot in the province.


Same situation here. The guys I know who reside in the EK and their buddies passed up a number of 4pts and tagged out this year. Nothing north of 175 but they're there.

Now how about getting on some dogs over the holidays?

[hunter1947]

Ya you hear about the odd big buck shot here and there in the EK but what about all the other hunters that don't see or get there mule deer buck ???? I wonder what the numbers are hunters getting a mule deer four point and hunters that don't get there mule deer four point in the EK ??:confused:?? guess we will never know will we..

[hunter1947]

This this might work ??? I would like to see when hunters go renew there old hunting licences they have to hand in there old licences before they can get a new one ,,, management then can get a handle on what had been shot in the Provence of BC for all ,, management would know exactly what was shot for all species ,,they then can the questionnaire they send out every year to hunters ,,guess this is called using science..


Its weird that no one has came back with what my thoughts are with this idea about handing in your old licence before you can get a new one your thoughts on this one ????...

[Husky7mm]

All my buddies that hunt in the ek pass up 4 pts and they all shoot 4 pts if they want. Got a buddy that shot a 190 class in the ek this year. They might not be on every knob but they're there, just like every other spot in the province.


The focus should be on making more deer and it isn't. There's more than enough people in the province that want to talk about self-absorbed fictitious problems. Not enough time in the day to bother with the folks that are tuned in to Fox News.

Round and round it goes..... You will see or hear from a source you believe and respect by this year or the next that many areas in the koots are in serious mule deer trouble. Perhaps not where you and your buds are going but in many of the other core mule deer ranges. I may be one of few on here who is consistently battling against people who come here a week a year, but there are 100's of hardened local, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th generation hunters that are very concerned. They are not on HBC either..... I can see why

[horshur]

Well, a fresh skiff of snow and a few differnet ranges, They were not all individuals, so I am not off by much. At least 5 different singles, plus 2 different she cats with 1 kit each and one with 2 kits. So to be more conservitive, 12.... The word polluted comes to mind...

I will not be bold enough to say you are wrong....but it begs the question how the resource could support those densities if you are right.. In order to have the sort of population you infer it must be easy living for the females.

[Jimmy4x4]

I may be one of few on here who is consistently battling against people who come here a week a year

you still deny trying to reduce your competition even after statements like this. its not about the deer its about you

[Husky7mm]

Well lots of game concentrated in the trench right now. If there in a pinch theres always lots of elk to take down.... but I'm sure whats left of the deer being the perfered target. Crown access being blocked by private land intermingled with road closures, concentrated wintering game.... set up the perfect enviroment for this.

[Husky7mm]

you still deny trying to reduce your competition even after statements like this. its not about the deer its about you

No come, tell your freinds, join the party you will have a great time............

[Husky7mm]

BTW if opportunity is reduced for mule deer for anyone who hunts here in the EK , it is reduced for me also!

[hunter1947]

This this might work ??? I would like to see when hunters go renew there old hunting licences they have to hand in there old licences before they can get a new one ,,, management then can get a handle on what had been shot in the Provence of BC for all ,, management would know exactly what was shot for all species ,,they then can the questionnaire they send out every year to hunters ,,guess this is called using science..


Its weird that no one has came back with what my thoughts are with this idea about handing in your old licence before you can get a new one your thoughts on this one ????...


Lets hear what your thoughts are ????

[The Dude]

Logistically that might be hard to do wayne. I agree it's a great idea in theory, but all the licenses would have to be collected at Point of Sale (Canadian Tire, Bob's Sporting Goods, etc). then all would have to be mailed to MOE in Victoria (Special Pre-paid Postal envelope?), then all the info painstakingly deciphered from cuts and tears on licenses by hired hands at big tables, entered into a database, etc.
You should contact MOE. If they're into setting it up and funding it, it could replace the Questionnaire mailed out.
On the other hand, if someone forgets to send theirs in, and goes to by a new license, and is refused, it could discourage hunting, which is a big negative.

[hunter1947]

Dude you don't send in your liecence you give your liecence to the clerk when you get your new liecence they put your liecence in a under the counter in a box or other ,, after a month or when ever they ship the liecences to the management ,,management can pay the little fee for the shipping of the liecences.

To keep a record on your old liecence you can photo copy the pages for latter if needed ?????..

[6pt_elk_wannabe]

thats why theres antlerless and either sex whitetail seasons in most regions, its to hopefully thin out the population but still hvae another specicies to hunt,

[aggiehunter]

good to see lots of opinions...I personally don't see the "interface" issue between WT and MD where I am in Region 8...sure lots will disagree...but what I do here is this...I'm going Mule Deer Hunting every year and even if I don't see many I'm still gonna kill the one I see....so you guys figure it out....

[aggiehunter]

not trying to derail but did someone mention handing in you old licence...NOT required...

[Dour]

I seem a white tail in Squamish last spring chased it down the Squamish fsr lol never knew they are this far west