Bear Parts and Such

[tooty]

A fellow I work with that does'nt hunt asked me if you shoot a bear and tagged out,could you sell the hide or claws,bladder or any thing for that matter.:lol: I said I never thought about it before.Can you,if not why not,would you if you could.

[Steeleco]

Your not allowed to trade in animal parts, the bears bladder your not even allowed to keep for your own consumption. Have a good look in the regs it's all there.

[tooty]

I know it's in the regs somewhere but I just don't see it.Still looking.

[MichelD]

Page 8, upper right hand corner.

[tooty]

OK found it.But why not,it's dead,you tagged it,it's yours.Waste not want not.Ya I know then everyone will shoot bears for money,but if you could sell parts then they wouldn't be worth as much.Hmm?

[mainland hunter]

you can sell the hide and skull

[Browningmirage]

Dude, isnt it against the law to sell any game, fish etc that was gotten recreationally. Im sure they wouldnt leave that great big loophole open, because then there would be insane amounts of dead animals, mainly shot or caught for the commercial value. I am positive that you cannot do trade in any game parts

[tooty]

That's correct.I used to do ride alongs with the CO here.Just trying to stir up a little ...But I did need a little direction to find the page in the regs.The hide I believe is not a problem.

[Browningmirage]

As for why not...think for a second, it makes perfect sense from a conservation point of view.

[The Hermit]

The sale of animal parts flies in the face of all that is holy about hunting.

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

Tooty,Pull up your downriggers and stop trolling. :lol:

[tooty]

On page 14 -(It's unlawful) #6 says as long as the wildlife was lawfully killed during open season....I think you can sell the hide.I was doing a little trolling,but now I need to know,just for the purpose of knowing.

[Gateholio]

We had an interesting discussion about gall bladders etc some time ago:

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=6642&highlight=gall+bladder

[mainland hunter]

I am positive that you cannot do trade in any game parts

it is worded in the synopsis "a ban on commercial trade in certain bear parts" you can sell some parts of the animal.
its perfectly legal to buy or sell a bear hide.
lots of taxidermists including myself buy capes and hides for replacement purposes

[tooty]

Thank you,that's what I read as well.

[youngfellla]

Nothing wrong with selling hides. I cape out every animal I shoot and sell them to taxidermists if I am not using the cape.

Pays for a lot of my reloading supplies, etc.8)

[jjensen20]

The biggest reason for not being able to sell certain bear parts is the gall bladder, it is a delacacy in oriental culture and they use the bile for all sorts of things. (remember the Tom Cochran commercial) i read an article in field and stream a few years ago and it said people were getting up to 10g for a gall bladder. If it was legal think of how many bears would be left?

[Will]

Poachers will always Poach.
I guess it makes more sense to leave the Gall to Rot in the bush....
Or feed another endangered Crow ?

If the "Part" is from a Lawfully harvested animal with the documentation to prove it (tag etc.) then why not allow it :|

[Frango]

Will..(master coyote caller)"then why not allow it" ..You should really think that statement thru.

[tooty]

Would allowing sale of bladders reduce the price of them making it a pain just to sell them?

[Gateholio]

Will..(master coyote caller)"then why not allow it" ..You should really think that statement thru.

It appears to be a well thought out post.

Whenever you ban a item, you put a premium price tag on it. You make it illegal, price goes up. If it is readily available, price goes down. Less incentive to poach when that gall is only worth $50, isn't it?

So, if there is a demand for something, and we have the means to supply it (via lawful hunitng methods) why not allow it?

You guys should relaly check out that link I posted above, it's an interesting discussion.

[Frango]

First of all we are dealing with an oriental market.The demand does not go down.We could not supply the amount of balder they would like and still have bears.If you allowed everyone with a bear tag to sell bladders then everyone would have a bear tag to help pay for there hunting trip .I like bears in the wild not on a self.

[Marc]

When I lived in New Brunswick, 16 years or so ago, the taxidermist told me he'd give me $75 for a galbladder if I got a bear. I think it was actually legal back then not sure if it is now.


Marc.

[tooty]

Yes I think that would be the sum of it ,bears for everyone,then no more bears.

[Steeleco]

It's been said before but If we hunt 2 bears each and turn in the galls for some incentive, only good can come from it. Like Gate said, making it legal makes it cheaper!!!

Even if the galls collected just serviced the BC demand, I feel the need to poach would be dropped significantly??

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

If you guys think that by being able to sell gall bladders in B.C you would drastically lower the price of the bladder then you are nuts,what would happen is you would get alot of asians lining up to write their core for the sole purpose of shooting a bear for the gall bladder. You would see sows shot cubs shot and every bear that walked on the logging road shot .Then every anti hunter would jump on this ,they would close the season and all the new asian hunters with their new rifles would go out and poach the bears.

[puppychow]

I am an Asian hunter and know the value of the gallbladder. There in a real problem when it comes to the use of the gallbladder. Even though it does appear to have some medicinal value, it is illegal. I am just curious if the legality of the use of bear bladder would change if there was a legal use for the bladder on the Canadian and American pharmaceutical market. I would compare it to the use of shark cartillige and the sudden use by herbal and alternate medical fields a few years ago. Just a thought......!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I read that most of the confiscated bear galls in BC came form LEGALLY harvested bears. A lot of the exaggerated poaching claims come from the antihunting organizations who try to make the public that there's a huge slaughter going on out there and we need to protect them.
We all know there is no shortage of blackies in this province..................


SSS

[bigwhiteys]

My thoughts... (from the thread Gatehouse posted)

Black Bear galls could be compulsory to turn into the CO's and then the dept. could export the product to the orient (or interested markets) through some sort of goverment program and use the money towards wildlife conservation in BC.

If there was a source to legally buy the galls the black market for them here would probably start to decrease.

I don't think we'd have increased hunter numbers for black bears (substantially anyways) because there is still the meat requirement. This is a huge turn-off for many "would-be" bear hunters and if you have to turn the galls over there is no monetary gain on our part. Why would that increase poaching?

Just my 2 cents... It's a resource we could be utilizing that just sits there with every dead bear.

Happy Hunting
Carl

[mainland hunter]

Black Bear galls could be compulsory to turn into the CO's and then the dept. could export the product to the orient (or interested markets) through some sort of goverment program and use the money towards wildlife conservation in BC.


i like that idea.

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

Check this out...... www.american.edu/ted/bear.htm

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

Are you still sure you want to support the gall bladder industry in Asia ?

[rollingrock]

What if the blader was blasted to pieces by the bullet? I think that the hunters should be allowed to keep the parts of legally harvested bears. But I'm not sure if the commercial trading should be legalized cuz the demand in overseas markets is endless.

[Steeleco]

Are you still sure you want to support the gall bladder industry in Asia ?

Never did!!!, the idea is to protect the critters, if we are hunting them anyway it seems a shear waste to leave for scrap something that is in such demand. Other bears die for no other reason.

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

If some people are poaching bears and building bear farms for the sole purpose of obtaining the gall bladders from these animals,then wouldnt we be foolish to contribute to this inhumane industry by supplying gall bladders to an industry thats demand outweighs its supply. :cry:

[browningboy]

I guess the money must be tempting for some, but its just wrong, you're supporting something that is morally and ethicly wrong! My opinion is if the orientals require some "what you call stiffeners:lol: ", then use the most common and proven method, viagra!

[Frango]

Why would any reasonable hunter want to make bear galls a commodity?People give your head a shake.Its a market that is bad for BC bears period.

[Will]

If you allowed everyone with a bear tag to sell bladders then everyone would have a bear tag to help pay for there hunting trip .I like bears in the wild not on a self.
Surprise Frango...everyone that has a Bear Tag can actually Kill a Bear :|
Allowing the sale of "Legally" harvested Bears or the parts thereof would not change this. If over harvest began to happen then whatya know....LEH, this is how they Manage alot of animals right now.

And yes I do think about my Posts....Thanks.

[bigwhiteys]

Are you still sure you want to support the gall bladder industry in Asia ?

That is 12-14 year old data... It would be nice to know the current figures. Problems sometimes need to solved by looking outside the box.

Taken from our fish & game site http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wild/documents/hunter_stats_2002.pdf

There was roughly 4000 black bears legally harvested in BC for the year 2002 by both Residents and Non. Your article quotes..


Experts argue that while the British Colombian bear population remains at a healthy 300,000 to 400,000 now, up to 40,000 bears are illegally poached per year.

I understand that article collected their data in the early 90's but if you could compare that to our numbers a few years ago it's 1000% more bears poached then harvested legally. I doubt that...

There are statistics in that report all the way back into the 70's if you want to read the line graphs. I think the source you referenced may have overestimated much of their information... Not too much of a mystery though considering if you look at the sources of their information. They appear to be mostly newspapers and magazines...

Still would like to know what the recent annual harvest on B. Bears is and what the estimates would be people poaching them for this purpose.

Happy Hunting!
Carl

[bigwhiteys]

Why would any reasonable hunter want to make bear galls a commodity?People give your head a shake.Its a market that is bad for BC bears period.

Fango... They are already a commodity whether we like it or not.

Carl

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

Carl ,ITS ILLEGAL....whats your point. :cry:

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

I would rather leave a gall bladder in the bush so a whiskey jack,raven,or coyote can have a nice lunch then contribute to an illegal industry.That is why I work for a living and do not have a grow op.:sad:

[bigwhiteys]

This thread was about bear parts and such. I simply offered an alternative solution to a problem.

Whats your solution BigHunterFish?

Happy Hunting!
Carl

[Browningmirage]

Im thinking one of these things. Hunting and fishing laws are the easiest laws out there to follow. Why not follow them. Seriously, stick to being legal, its not at all that hard. Also, its like small as hell, and last i heard not many of us chow down on them, leave em out in the bush. Any money gained by a government trading in galls would end up just going to waste anyways.

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

My solution is to leave the law as it is , you must leave the gall bladder in the bush,and to have the toughest laws when it comes to any form of poaching,and a lifetime ban from hunting.Any trading or selling of any illegal animal parts is a criminal offense and should be treated seriously.We has hunters need to protect our hunting and enviroment not exploit it ,and if you leave a few entrails in the bush have no fear nothing gets wasted the animals will a nice dinner and you will go home happy. :lol:

[Will]

I would rather leave a gall bladder in the bush so a whiskey jack,raven,or coyote can have a nice lunch then contribute to an illegal industry.
But that's the catch......make a Legal Trade out of what is now left to Rot anyways and you'd solve the "Illegal Bear Trade" in Galls....or at least put a dent in it.
There will always be unscrupulous Souls that will Poach, tough to change that...We're talking about Legally Harvested Bears.
The Hunter keeps the meat, the hide and turns in the Gall for a "fee" as suggested the Money could go back into "Conservation efforts" or ???
Seems a much better use then feeding the Crows.
Poachers and those possessing the Poached Parts could still be Charged......

As far as this being something the Anti's would use as ammo to stop the Bear Hunt.........Nonsense ! they already want to do that and it has nothing to do with Galls :|

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

Rick,I do not think the govt for one second would like to get involved in the bear gall bladder industry,this will remain a black market industry.The govt would rather get into the marijuana or legal prostitution business because the majority of people show support for it.If we allow people to sell gall bladders we will see less selective hunting , more sows shot and people that normally dont shoot bears kill one for the money.I think we have a healthy population of bears so if its not broken why fix it?

[Krico]

The sale of animal parts flies in the face of all that is holy about hunting.

You've got to be kidding me. So I shoot a deer, and have the meat butchered to feed my family. Since I am not in need of any deerskin clothing, I sell the hide, thus providing money to buy groceries, pay heat bill or whatever. What is so unholy about this? It seems much more of a waste to me to throw the hide in a dumpster after skinning it.

[Gateholio]

Prohibition has ALWAYS led to profiteering..

IThe simplest example is the prohibition of alcohol in the USA. Empires were BUILT by suppling bootleg booze.

Once it became legal agian, the gangsters resorted to other means to make a living, but that is beside the point.

If regular hunters (like us) could drop off a gall at a registered "gall" purchaser, the dollar value of these galls would plumment. Actually, from what I understand, the value HAS dropped due to VIAGRA etc.

It all comes down to how it is regulated.

Hunter shoots bear, fufills all legal requirements via meat etc, retrives gall and sends to registered buyer, recieves small stipend and off we go. Asian markets are flooded with legal galls, so the market drops in price, which leaves no incentive tot he poacher to ply his trade.

To me, it seems simple, but I am a simple man...

[bighornbob]

The ban on bear galls was not put in to protect our bears but to protect bears in asia. Think about it a bag full of legal bear galls from BC looks like a bag full of illegally taken bear galls from China. Thats the problem. How would a CO in another country know the differnece without DNA analysis. S**t it takes months to get DNA stuff done hear for crimes scenes let alone bear galls in another country.

So if a CO anywhere catches or seizes a bear gall he knows its illegal, no if and or buts. That is why the ban is in place, not just to protect BC bears but to protect the endangered bears around the world.

BHB

[bighornbob]

Asian markets are flooded with legal galls, so the market drops in price, which leaves no incentive tot he poacher to ply his trade....

Your are right that it would drop the poaching here.

Lets say you sell the bear gall for 20 bucks. The distributer puts a charge on it to cover his cost etc etc etc. So a shop owner in Asia has to pay 200 bucks for the gall once everybody has marked up their costs.

If that market owner can find a supply of galls that saves him money he will do so. So a local guy approaches him and he has bear galls for 100 bucks. These bear galls are from local endangered bears that cost far less has there isn't as many middle men. The store owner buys them as passes them off as BC galls becuase its legal. So who wins here, we make money, the gov makes money, the store keeper makes money, the poacher still makes money, the asian bear, oh wait the asian bear is not the winner:sad:

Can you see where this goes. By banning the trade is bear parts, it makes the any bear gall illegal.

BHB

[Browningmirage]

the thing is...its a bear gall, there is only 1(one...one with no zeroes, just one, uno) per bear, and it is seriously not that large. Now lets just put that into perspective, how big is the Asian market?... how many bears do you think it would take to even marginally lower the price per gall, we would wipe out our bear populations without even putting a real dent in the price, or reducing the demand at all, there is not just one country that wants these galls, which means that from BC there is no way to satisfy the demand. There is no way to sell the gall to the government because that would result in people hunting for the money (maybe not all, but you cant even begin to suggest that there wouldnt be people out there killing bears for money)

[MB_Boy]

Can you see where this goes. By banning the trade is bear parts, it makes the any bear gall illegal.
BHB

BHB......I agree about the asian bears losing out and without going back and reading it, the thread that Gate posted touched on a lot of this and a lot of good points as I was involved in it and it was a very good discussion.

Making any bear gall illegal thus far seems to have done just about as much as making pot illegal. I like ideas that think outside the box and a forum like this is a great place to explore the idea of a legalized system and the pros and cons.

Unfortunately there are different currencies and economies from where the various galls come from that certainly dictate the price and demand. For example.....if I traded in a "legal gall" here for $20.00 for the sake of arguement; that $20.00 to a poor farmer in a third world country represents a lot more that it does to me. That is one of the many factors to take into account, along with those mentioned in this thread and the previous thread.

The big "if" is a great thing to discuss as opposed to just saying....."it's illegal, end of story". Who knows.....in some way shape or form throuugh a legal collection of galls from legally harvested bears in BC or Canada there may be a way of biting the illegal trade and making an impact. There are a huge number of factors and scenarios to take into account.

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

So let me give you an example,the natives can legally catch sockeye salmon and sell them back to the govt ,does this stop all poaching ?no way,why because the demand is so high and you can make so much money under the table ,why would you solely do buisness with the govt.If you take for example an unheard of 8000 black bears in one season and every one turns in there gall bladders for 20 bucks its peanuts for the govt.The selling of antlers is a huge buisness that the govt really wants no part of ,I can not see anyway there would ever be a buyback program on gall bladders that would work.Even if you regulate something ,people will still try to get a better price under the table just look at the prescription drug industry.

[mainland hunter]

i did like the idea of putting the money back towards our conservation efforts, but it does seem to me like a blanket ban is probably the most efficient way for them to fight the poaching, as long as fines are carried out and are high enough. plus some of that fine money probably does go back into conservation efforts.

[Browningmirage]

The thing is its government, it most likely wouldnt go back to conservation efforts (there was a young liberal convention recently, the final dinner alone cost something like 75,000...out of the governments budget, it was a 4 day long thing). Also lets look at it another way... the tree huggers way, they would never let the government traffic in gall bladders, theres too many pinko commie socialist tree hugger vegan voters in BC to ever allow it. If they kept it secret, it would eventually get out, and the liberals would not exist as government for some time.

[rollingrock]

The problem is the overseas markets. Ten thousand bladers a year is nothing compared with demand.

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

I would also add ,who says these gall bladders are even safe ?they are not used in pharmathueutical medicine ,it is voodoo medicine at best like snakes blood,ground up antler etc.If this was medically proven to treat cancer etc I would be leading the charge ,but not to help some Taiwanese buisness man with his erectile dysfunction. :lol:

[rollingrock]

I would also add ,who says these gall bladders are even safe ?they are not used in pharmathueutical medicine ,it is voodoo medicine at best like snakes blood,ground up antler etc.If this was medically proven to treat cancer etc I would be leading the charge ,but not to help some Taiwanese buisness man with his erectile dysfunction. :lol:

Bear gall blader has been proven to be a very effective ingredient in various Chinese medicines for curing cancer or cleansing toxic stuffs in human body. Really it has nothing to do with erectile dysfunction.

But the genital organ or deer antler is different story. The most expensive parts of a deer are antler and its tail, and both are for the enhancement of erectile function.

[MB_Boy]

BHF.........I agree that there is still always going to be "bootleg :wink: " trade whether it be bear galls, sockeye salmon, drugs, or prescription drugs.

A few things to consider.....

1) Let's give the average BC hunter here the benefit of the doubt that they are law abiding and currently their "galls" are food for the scavengers. Now....there are let's say 90% of the "provincial harvest" of bear galls never reaching a marketplace. ( I have no idea how many bears are legally harvested in BC.:oops: ) An influx of "legal" galls into an illegal underground market is going to have an effect whether you want to admit it or not. Why is the illegal trade of booze virtuall extinct unless you steal a truck of Moosehead beer in New Brunswick?:lol:

2) Comapring the "illegal sale" of sockeye by natives is not necessarily the equivalent. It is one thing to drive around a neighborhood knocking on doors with a freezer in the back of your truck; and it is a whole other game when you are talking about sourcing a dealer locally.....and taking a gall to market across an ocean. It is different when I have ONE gall vs a truck full of salmon as a single contributor.

3) I can tell you as an idea.....and I would do something like this. For doing something as simple as turning in my gall to a CO or Gov't office and recieved nothing more than a crest that said I was a contributor or part of a program the gov't would see my gall for $0.00 in return. A number of years back they were doing this with jaws in MB for deer and moose and it was a very successful program (I can confirm this as my Dad ran the program) because hunters felt as though they were "helping out". It used to amaze me the number of hunters you would see out in the bush with these different crests sewn on their blaze orange or whites (it was MB...it's the law for the goofy outfits).

4) As far as the tree/bunny huggers and anti's being against this sort of a "collection system".........you really do catch them between a rock and hard place. These are galls from legally harvested bears, a hunter has paid a fee from the Provincial Gov't to harvest this animal.......and they are donating one small piece of it to help combat the illegal harvest BC's bears.....Canada's bears........Asia's bears.......and the bears you see with tubes hooked up to them looking like they are on some messed up form of life support. Sit an anti down and show them a video of a bear all "hooked up"......and tell them that a legal harvest (which is going to happen anyhow) and a donation is going to help combat what is going on across the ocean. They are going to have a hard time to twisting that one......although they do manage to twist everything so who knows.

Just some ideas......and as I said.....throwing ideas out there is great be they "for" or "against" or "if?".

[Elkhound]

MB Boy as usual some very good points brought up

[MB_Boy]

.... blanket ban is probably the most efficient way for them to fight the poaching, as long as fines are carried out and are high enough. plus some of that fine money probably does go back into conservation efforts.

Mainland......that is the problem, they plain and simple aren't. Look at what happens to people who own grow ops (and that is way out in front of bear bladders as an issue in society)......they get a slap on the wrist and pay a small fine and they are back on their way. I know of a guy (not personally!!) a few years back in Squamish who would run an "op".....have it shut down.......he would be back at it within 6 months in the same small town and he did this 4 or 5 different times.

On top of the issue of fines.......we plain and simple don't have enough enforcement to put a dent in the trade. In the past few years I have only heard "through the media" of one person/couple being caught and that was the article I posted in the original thread that got the discussion going back in August. Other than that you just don't hear about people being busted......sure it is not huge news, but with the members on this board spread out all over the province you would think you may here of the odd other case???

[NEEHAMA]

hey who says you can't use the gall bladder!! you just have to eat it right then and there as you gut the bear!!...JUST TRY AND STOP ME! HA HA HA

just like when i'm oyster digging. i eat my limit a few times over!

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

M.B , I like the way you think but I have a question,you shoot a bear take the gall bladder out of the bush with the intention of turning it in to get a crest.On your way home the CO'S pull you over and find the bladder ,you tell them you are going to turn it in for your crest,now how do they know you are actually going to do this and not sell the bladder,you have just formed a loop hole in getting the bladder closer to an illegal dealer.

[MB_Boy]

hey who says you can't use the gall bladder!! you just have to eat it right then and there as you gut the bear!!...JUST TRY AND STOP ME! HA HA HA

just like when i'm oyster digging. i eat my limit a few times over!

LOL......ya.....and where is it that you hunt for bears and which beach are you lookin' for the oysters so we can all stay WAY clear? Hope your not wearing a speedo!!

[MB_Boy]

M.B , I like the way you think but I have a question,you shoot a bear take the gall bladder out of the bush with the intention of turning it in to get a crest.On your way home the CO'S pull you over and find the bladder ,you tell them you are going to turn it in for your crest,now how do they know you are actually going to do this and not sell the bladder,you have just formed a loop hole in getting the bladder closer to an illegal dealer.

Good question!?!? THere is a point there in that there was not an illegal trade of jaws in MB. :lol: I guess part of it is where we make the assumption that hunters in BC are for the most part law abiding and want to lend a hand in helping out? I know that is a lot of faith when $$$ do come in to play and there will always be bad apples....legal or not.

On the flip side...."if" I am going to sell a bladder, legal or not I am going to find a way to get it to market. How many bear hunters on this site have been checked by a CO and had them go through your entire vehicle looking for the gall? I don't think it is all of a sudden going to turn a hunter who would normally just leave a gall in the bush because he says to himself "it's the law"....into a hunter who is going to put himself at risk to bring ONE bladder home with him and spend all sorts of time sourcing how to take it to market. I would not think that it is going to turn the good apples in to poachers.

Another idea......a CO checks you and you are carrying a gall from the bear you shot. You have ~30 days to turn it in and your license number is recorded. Hell....if a CO does pull you over and you have a bear, deer, moose, elk, hamster, or ducks in your truck he IS going to ask to see your tags.

[308BAR]

Prohibition has ALWAYS led to profiteering..

IThe simplest example is the prohibition of alcohol in the USA. Empires were BUILT by suppling bootleg booze.

Once it became legal agian, the gangsters resorted to other means to make a living, but that is beside the point.

If regular hunters (like us) could drop off a gall at a registered "gall" purchaser, the dollar value of these galls would plumment. Actually, from what I understand, the value HAS dropped due to VIAGRA etc.

It all comes down to how it is regulated.

Hunter shoots bear, fufills all legal requirements via meat etc, retrives gall and sends to registered buyer, recieves small stipend and off we go. Asian markets are flooded with legal galls, so the market drops in price, which leaves no incentive tot he poacher to ply his trade.

To me, it seems simple, but I am a simple man...

Sorry but this is very simple, too simple. It is a numbers game, the price will never drop because there is a "legal" supply to asia. There is 1.6 Billion people in China verse BC's 300,00 bears!!! No way have a legal supply will ever put a dent in price. Simple math....demand is still higher than supply.

[MB_Boy]

Sorry but this is very simple, too simple. It is a numbers game, the price will never drop because there is a "legal" supply to asia. There is 1.6 Billion people in China verse BC's 300,00 bears!!! No way have a legal supply will ever put a dent in price. Simple math....demand is still higher than supply.

308......it's simple Economics:wink:.....and price is NOT the big issue here. It is an effort to stop the illegal harvest of bears for their galls. To be honest, I don't care how many yen some guy in China pays for a "stiffy"....not my issue. Now, if he was able to get that "stiffy" legally as opposed to illegally at the expense of North American bears I would personally be happier.

Show me how many individuals consume medicines made from bear galls and then you have a more relevant number. It is expensive in China and due to the distribution of wealth within the population, products are NOT available to any guy walking down the street. Again, I could care less how much a store owner in China is making selling the stuff. Yes....someone is going to benefit financially if you don't drive the price down, but bears in BC are going to benefit and that is where our biggest concern should be.

Next point........"if" a poacher currently can sell a gall for $100.00 to the "wholesaler" in China, what do you think would happen if all of a sudden that same "wholesaler" could purchase the galls at 1/2 or 1/3rd the price from the Gov't of BC? Suddenly Mr. Poacher's profits have been cut in half and he has to re-evaluate whether it is all worth it? Thus.....you have what would be a very noticeable impact on the poaching and trade of ILLEGALLY HARVESTED bears in BC. (bear in mind the numbers and dollar values are purely arbitrary as I do not know how much they go for etc. I have been out of the trade for a while :wink:)

**EDIT....please feel free to replace the word "stiffy" with "cold remedy"....:redface: :mrgreen:

[Kirby]

I would like to see it done such as 25 dollar tag, however if you turn in the gall you get a 10 dollar rebate on your tag. Not making money, no drive to legally hunt the bear for money.
The gov could then take the X number of galls turned over and supply them legally to china. If you include BC, Alberta, Sask, Man, Ont... you get the idea, and if the states were involved the number of galls being shipped to china would be very high. The question then comes into play, WHAT is the demand number? 10,000 galls a year? 100,000? If the current number of legally shot animals could supply say 60-70% of the demand you would drastically cut the profits of poachers involved. Take the money from sales and turn it back into CO's.

There is a huge issue with this in Africa, they are darting Rhinos and cutting the horns off then they sit in a wharehouse, the gov is sitting on literally millions of dollars of horn but isn't willing to sell it. The fear being that if you supply it, more will want it, the cost will decrease, but the use increases, driving the prices right back up and poaching becomes a problem again.

Kirby

[bigwhiteys]

WHAT is the demand number? 10,000 galls a year? 100,000?


That is the question I am asking... The bear farms themselves are for farming the bile the gall is a one time deal (dead bear).

From the article BHF posted the farm in question grossed just over $400,000 in what seemed like a peak year for the industry... This is small potatoes in the grand scheme of things.

Current accurate data would obviously shed more light...

Happy Hunting!
Carl

[MichelD]

How many times must it be repeated?

Bear galls are not used for aphrodisiacs.

[NEEHAMA]

SPEEDO?!......damn it , i'm busted.

[MichelD]

It's got nothing to do with limp peckers.

They are the only species with a gall bladder that produces fairly large quantities of bile, or bile salts, an ingredient that has been used in traditional Asian medicines for as long as 3,000 years. It is reported to cure a number of ailments, including cirrhosis of the liver, high blood pressure, jaundice, diabetes, heart disease, fever, headache, hemorrhoids, severe burns, and tooth decay. It also is used in health care products such as shampoo, and as a food delicacy. While synthetic forms of UDCA (the active ingredient in bile that has been proven to have some medicinal qualities) are available, there is a tradition that indicates the cure must come from nature to be effective.

[MB_Boy]

How many times must it be repeated?

Bear galls are not used for aphrodisiacs.

Sorry Michel........I honestly didn't know what exactly it was used for and was being a bit facetious about the stiffy....more referring to the end user and whatever it is used for.:redface:


Here is an article I found from DNR in Nova Scotia.

http://www.gov.ns.ca/NATR/wildlife/lgmams/beargalls.htm

[Steeleco]

M.B , I like the way you think but I have a question,you shoot a bear take the gall bladder out of the bush with the intention of turning it in to get a crest.On your way home the CO'S pull you over and find the bladder ,you tell them you are going to turn it in for your crest,now how do they know you are actually going to do this and not sell the bladder,you have just formed a loop hole in getting the bladder closer to an illegal dealer.
You do raise a compelling argument about the whole thing, one that's got me thinking a little differently today!! It is a numbers thing, too much demand. It can't do any harm collecting these things but I'm starting to think it won't do much good either!!

But to this question, should it ever come about? Have all C/O's carry the trinket and a cooler in the truck. I'd hand it over to the first green pick up I saw!!!

[Elkhound]

I would like to see it done such as 25 dollar tag, however if you turn in the gall you get a 10 dollar rebate on your tag. Not making money, no drive to legally hunt the bear for money.


So far I think that Kirby has come up with the best solution I have heard so far. Excellent idea

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

I would rather see the price of license and tags go up to fund extra CO'S to cut down on poaching ,fisheries added some extra officers to the Fraser this year and there was way less bull @#$% then in previous years.I know guys are going to say what higher prices on tags,but really it is a small expense in your total hunt,I would also pay a higher price for leh applications if my odds were greatly enhanced on some selective hunts. :lol:

[bighornbob]

The problem people are not addressing is no matter what we sell/charge for the gall, they will always be cheaper over there. If we handed in galls for free, shiiping was free, handling on the other side free and the stores gave it away, then that may drive the poachers away.

You have to remember that most poachers in the third world countries are poor and have nothing to lose. They make hardly any money. If the cost of a gall was said to drop by half they would still shoot bears illegally if they only got a dollar for each one as that is their only income. Like the poachers of african ivory, the cost of getting caught is usually death. These people do not do it to get rich but to basically survive thats where the problem lies. Sure the middle man gets rich but not the actual poacher.

Also people are still not addressing the fact that a legal gall is undistinguishable from a illegal gall. Like the idea of turning in galls here and the Co does not know if your are going to sell the gall or trade it in. same over there a CO does not know if its legal black bear gall or a gall from an endangered Sun Bear.

Here is a solution, instead of worring about the galls for a few bucks. We can life size skin every deer, elk, moose we get and sell the hides. Taxidermist always buy hides. There is the extra money you guys wanted.

BHB

[Gateholio]

Here is a solution, instead of worring about the galls for a few bucks. We can life size skin every deer, elk, moose we get and sell the hides. Taxidermist always buy hides. There is the extra money you guys wanted.

BHB

I don't think anyone relaly cares about the extra bucks, most of us woudl be happy to do it for free if it helped slow poaching...

But apparently, the poaching will continue, whether there is a ban or not...

[Will]

...we will see less selective hunting , more sows shot and people that normally dont shoot bears kill one for the money.I think we have a healthy population of bears so if its not broken why fix it?
There are already Laws in Place to prevent the Shooting of Sows with cubs........seems to work for the majority of Honest folks.

This isn't gonna make anyone rich.......you'd still have a 2 Bear limit in the Province, it's not like there would suddenly be an end to the Provincial bag limits.

Definately it's not about "Making extra Cash" as some have pointed out:rolleyes:
It's about Utilizing the ENTIRE animal...isn't this what Hunters are supposed to pride themselves on ?

I just don't see the Point in Having to leave behind a part of something that was Legally Obtained in the 1st place to Rot when there is obviously a "Demand" for it. If it's something that could generate some MUCH needed funds to kick back into the Conservation efforts for BC why the hell not :|

Peanuts ??? Maybe in the grand scheme of things but the CO's could use every extra dollar they could get and this is something that's simply WASTED right now ! IMO.

[tooty]

When I posted Bear Parts and such it was to stir up a little crap and hopefully come to a solution on illegal trade of bear galls.There have been a great number of solutions suggested,but no real answer as of yet that everyone can agree on.I think the funds collected could go the Habitat Trust Fund or directly to the COs for more Cos in the field ,better equipment.This is a very hard illegal trade to control.It was never the about making cash from galls,just trying for away to control a huge problem,

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

Rick,How many millions did the gun registry cost us? Can you imagine the gall bladder registry.........you can get 50 bucks for a nice coyote pelt and nobodys in line.You would be creating new jobs for the govt,at the tax payers expense. Leave it at as it is ,and get tough on poachers. :lol:

[MB_Boy]

Leave it at as it is ,and get tough on poachers. :lol:

BHF....I agree, we have to get tougher on all criminals. Unfortunately there are way too many other criminal offences in line ahead of poaching bears for their bladders.

Yes....the gun registry was a sh*t show to say the least. Now....as far as registering galls, there are software solutions out there that could be easily adapted to track something like this.

Here is how it could work and again I am taking into assumption that hunters are good law abiding people for the most part..:wink: It does not really stray too far from what I had said in earlier posts.

As a hunter I purchase a tag (or two) for a bear and I harvest a bear.

I remove the gall bladder along with everything else. I am removing the bladder to help a system in place in which I turn in a bladder for a crest that shows I am helping the system.(mentioned earlier)

If I am checked by a CO I can either turn it over right then and there or to my local office but the CO will record my tag # to ensure it is cross-checked. (thus eliminating an easier transportation for illegal purposes)

With the crest or even a sticker for a vehicle all revenue generated would be allocated to the managing the program (I could do it in my part time as far as the central database:lol: ) and placed into conservation programs, conservation officers etc etc etc. Now....another benefit would be a sticker to put on the back of your vehicle (we know hunters aren't ashamed of that) ;which in turn would provide positive publicity/promotion of a program that any anti would walk a VERY fine line to dispute.(see my earlier post about that) The sticker doesn't have to say "I whacked a bear and dropped off his bladder", but something to promote the positive effects of such a program. "I stopped a bear poacher"????:lol: You get what I mean...something issued with a Gov of BC endorsment on it including the name of the program.

As opposed to re-typing alll I stated earlier the value of the product coming out of North America and that is simple economics. Why would a wholesaler in China purchase illegal galls at $100.00 vs. $25.00 (for example) for a registered product IF the supply is there? Thus poachers are going to have to work that much harder, and it is going to have to be one hell of an effort to match a legal regulated trade offering the same product at a margin they can't compete with. I am going to harvest a bear regardless so my costs as a hunter in bringing in a gall is no big deal vs a poacher whose sole purpose is to poach a bear for the gall. Fuel etc etc. A result of a recreational activity that will happen regardless is going to squash some guy who is doing something illegal for the sole purpose of financial gain.

So many thoughts, but I thought I would throw some ideas out there.

[Will]

Rick,How many millions did the gun registry cost us? Can you imagine the gall bladder registry.........you can get 50 bucks for a nice coyote pelt and nobodys in line.You would be creating new jobs for the govt,at the tax payers expense. Leave it at as it is ,and get tough on poachers. :lol:
So the the Biggest Argument against Legalizing the Possession of Gall, is that it's gonna turn Law abiding Hunters turn into Bear Poachers ?
& suddenly BC is gonna be Depleted of Bears because everyone will want thier piece of the Gall Bladder trade !

Oh Brother......:rolleyes:

Surprise !!!Bears are being Poached right now anyways ! And NOone can really show that's it's a Widespread epidemic.
I'll even BET that FAR more Bears are Shot by CO's in BC everyyear as Pests then are actually Poached for thier Galls:lol:

Add to that the Numbers of Legally Harvested ones where the Gall is left to waste........well you get my point.

My Problem is Not that there is No Commercial Export operation or whatever...that is definately left to someone with more Knowledge about that then I have.

I just don't see the Harm in some Hunter who has Killed a Bear in a Lawfully open season, has a TAG for the said Bear and he cannot keep one small part of the Guts.
Seems really stupid & Wastefull :|

[MB_Boy]

I just don't see the Harm in some Hunter who has Killed a Bear in a Lawfully open season, has a TAG for the said Bear and he cannot keep one small part of the Guts.
Seems really stupid & Wastefull :|

Will....I like your thinking. Let me just ask one question regarding your last statement. Why would you want to keep the gall? There are numerous reasons I can understand; it is just one more piece of the bear to hang on to and for lack of better terms a bit of a "revered" piece from the animal.

Just thought I would ask?

[Will]

Why would you want to keep the gall?
Because they are FANTASTIC dipped in Wasabi..........:lol:

Myself ? I could care less about the Gall's really......just think it's a Stupid Law ;)
The BEAR is DEAD, Can't change that, because of my Legally cut TAG the Dead Bear belongs to me......ALL of it.
Should be my Business if I wanna Eat it, sell it, or Give it away 8)

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

Why would you want to keep the gall?,because his Viagra bill is getting out of control.:lol:

[Will]

Why would you want to keep the gall?,because his Viagra bill is getting out of control.:lol:
Nope got Plenty of Horns to grind up for that........
It's Legal too ......That's my point :lol:

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

Rick,When you shoot a bear do you take home the heart,liver, and kidneys ?If you shoot a grizz will you pack out all the meat?You make that stinking gall bladder sound like its a piece of tenderloin from a young whitetail.:lol:

[Will]

Rick,When you shoot a bear do you take home the heart,liver, and kidneys ?
Nope, don't eat guts, but the Option is there if I wanted too...it's my Bear.

If you shoot a grizz will you pack out all the meat?
Nope, but the option is there if I wanted too...it's my Bear.

You make that stinking gall bladder sound like its a piece of tenderloin from a young whitetail.:lol:
Nope, it's a Stinky little Sac full of Bile....quite disgusting actually:|

But again if it's attached to my Lawfully Harvested (Killed) bear then it should belong to me as well 8)

[rollingrock]

It's got nothing to do with limp peckers.

They are the only species with a gall bladder that produces fairly large quantities of bile, or bile salts, an ingredient that has been used in traditional Asian medicines for as long as 3,000 years. It is reported to cure a number of ailments, including cirrhosis of the liver, high blood pressure, jaundice, diabetes, heart disease, fever, headache, hemorrhoids, severe burns, and tooth decay. It also is used in health care products such as shampoo, and as a food delicacy. While synthetic forms of UDCA(the active ingredient in bile that has been proven to have some medicinal qualities) are available, there is a tradition that indicates the cure must come from nature to be effective.

8-) Very impressive! I'm actually quite surprised...

[Browningmirage]

But the innards are collectively many times larger than the gall bladder. If you waste the innards, then you cant actually complain about leaving galls in the bush as being wasteful.

[Browningmirage]

As for poachers...the government needs to put more money and effort into catching them, right now their hands are so tied, that in reality there is no chance to catch illegal hunters. Instead of making something that is illegal, legal, why not enforce the laws that we already have?

[Gateholio]

But the innards are collectively many times larger than the gall bladder. If you waste the innards, then you cant actually complain about leaving galls in the bush as being wasteful.

The complaint is actually that you are not given the option to deal with it as you see fit.

[bigwhiteys]

Another Idea...

How about we have the option of turning in the whole bear + gall over to the CO's (you'd keep the cape/head and any meat you wanted) and then they could grind it up and make it into prison food. We could market it across North America.

Happy Hunting!
Carl

[Browningmirage]

The complaint is actually that you are not given the option to deal with it as you see fit.

Well in that case...
if you make a tonne of money, you cant actually spend it on illegal substances, or illegal activity. Its your money, you should be able to do with it what you want right.

The heads of Nortel and Enron, they misled the public, making themselves a tonne of money, why couldnt they do this, it was their company. (yes i understand the whole shares thing and that they didnt fully own the company)

if you go out and you catch fish (recreationally, or food fisheries) you cant sell that fish...why not, its in your posession, it is actually your fish as much as a bear is your animal.

The reason, its against the law, and it is not all that terribly unfair, i know these are somewhat extreme, but they are examples.

[Will]

if you go out and you catch fish (recreationally, or food fisheries) you cant sell that fish...why not, its in your posession, it is actually your fish as much as a bear is your animal.
Yes but what part of the Fish are you not "Allowed" to Possess ?
:|

[Browningmirage]

Thats not the point, and plus, if you read the regulations, it says that you are allowed to possess it (with the rest of the bear and guts) for up to 48 hours (page 8 of the trapping synopsis) The point is, that it is illegal, it may be your bear, but it is illegal to sell that part

[MB_Boy]

If you waste the innards, then you cant actually complain about leaving galls in the bush as being wasteful.

Mirage.......the whole question here is the legality and the "possibility" of a controlled "trade".

Now.....leaving whatever you want in the bush is fine, but we are talking about galls which have a market value and are in demand. Other than Bigwhitey's idea of prison food the rest of the 'innerds' are essentially worth nothing.


As for poachers...the government needs to put more money and effort into catching them, right now their hands are so tied, that in reality there is no chance to catch illegal hunters. Instead of making something that is illegal, legal, why not enforce the laws that we already have?

What better way to allocate money to help the cause than taking advantage of something that is left for the scavengers that has a proven value? Legalizing or controlling the trade will take pressure off of CO's who are already stretched beyond their limits. Now if you are saying currently there is "no chance to catch illegal hunters" how much money put into wildlife enforcement is going to give a "slight chance to catch illegal hunters"?? The laws are enforced right now......it's the resources to enfore them that is the issue.


The heads of Nortel and Enron, they misled the public, making themselves a tonne of money, why couldnt they do this, it was their company. (yes i understand the whole shares thing and that they didnt fully own the company)

Well you kind of answered your own question. It was not 'their' company, but they were in charge and have feduciary duties to the shareholders (also owners) of the company.


The point is, that it is illegal, it may be your bear, but it is illegal to sell that part

Nobody is debating the fact that currently it is illegal to sell or possess the part. We are "exploring" other possibilities as opposed to leaving the part in question in the bush for the magpies.

[MB_Boy]

if you go out and you catch fish (recreationally, or food fisheries) you cant sell that fish...why not, its in your posession, it is actually your fish as much as a bear is your animal..

In reality there are a number of illegal AND regulated items you can't just "sell" because they are yours. I do not feel like digging around and exploring liquor laws but I can with almost absolute certainty guarantee as a private citizen you could not sell liquor/beer/wine that you make at home. Or for that matter you can not resell liquor without a permit.

If I go out in the back woods and plant a field of pot (recreationally or for my own consumption) why can't I sell it? It is mine....it is in my possesion, it is actually my pot as much as the liquor I brewed in my basement is my booze.

Sorry......I don't quite follow the point of your fish comment? Laws are in place and it is illegal to sell that fish. Just like laws are currently in place that don't let you possess or keep the gall from the bear. Again.....we are just talking about ideas here.

"If" there was a market for fish scraps (everything but the filets or whatever you don't use) for prawn fishermen to use as bait BUT it was illegal to possess said scraps and you HAD to leave them at the waters edge would you not think it is kind of a stupid law?

[Rod]

Canada does have a legal market for bear gall, I ran a trapline in Ontario years ago and while a hunter is allowed one bear a trapping liscence lets you take as many as you desire, either with snares or firearms.

Hides as well as the dried gall can be sent to the OTA (Ontario Trappers Association) or Hudson Bay auctions where they are legally sold.

The unlimited harvest is not that big of an issue because the bears in Ontario are nothing like BC bears (lots around but seldome seen), I never trapped them but know several people who do and sucess was always pretty low, shooting over bait was much better but still nothing compared to here where filling a tag is pretty simple if you are not picky about the animal you want.

Now BC has a much larger Asian population that is probably the biggest reason for the ban, making possession of a gall would make it much harder to distinguish between legal and illegal parts.

Personally I hate to leave any useable parts in the bush but like they say "if it saves one life" :-).

[Browningmirage]

The complaint is actually that you are not given the option to deal with it as you see fit.

MB Boy, i was replying to gatehouses comment, basically just trying to point out that just because it is yours, doesnt mean you can do what you want with it.

As for the bear galls, i am starting to see the point, and it somewhat makes sense. However, market prices would not drop, there can never be enough galls on the market to lower it, because Asia is such a large place with an immense population. Because market prices wouldnt drop significantly, it wouldnt slow down poaching by any real noticeable amount.

[MB_Boy]

As for the bear galls, i am starting to see the point, and it somewhat makes sense. However, market prices would not drop, there can never be enough galls on the market to lower it, because Asia is such a large place with an immense population. Because market prices wouldnt drop significantly, it wouldnt slow down poaching by any real noticeable amount.

The "retail" price to the end user may not drop, but the value of the gall's coming out of North America certainly would. If we flooded an illegal market that let's say for arguements sake sends 1000 galls out of North America per year.......with 10,000 legally sold galls at say 1/4 of the value, the value of a poached gall will drop to meet the market price. Hopefully that will make the poachers give it up with no real profits in it for them. One guy can't compete with 5000 bear hunters in this province. (again not sure of the number of tags sold province wide)

To take a fish reference as example. You as an indivdual poaching fisherman (not accusing, this is just an example:wink: ) are catching sockeye and going door to door and selling them for $20.00 per fish illegally. Now.....a HUGE group is given the go-ahead to have a regulated legal sale of sockeye and there are 1000 fishermen providing the product(fish). It is being sold at $5.00 per fish and there is a huge supply.....how long do you think you are going to get $20.00 for yours?? Or have people purchasing illegally caught fish from you and how long are you going to continue poaching considering the return on your investment to obtain the fish has just been slashed dramatically.

[Gateholio]

Well in that case...
if you make a tonne of money, you cant actually spend it on illegal substances, or illegal activity. Its your money, you should be able to do with it what you want right.

The heads of Nortel and Enron, they misled the public, making themselves a tonne of money, why couldnt they do this, it was their company. (yes i understand the whole shares thing and that they didnt fully own the company)

if you go out and you catch fish (recreationally, or food fisheries) you cant sell that fish...why not, its in your posession, it is actually your fish as much as a bear is your animal.

The reason, its against the law, and it is not all that terribly unfair, i know these are somewhat extreme, but they are examples.


You are comparing the mismanagement of a public company to the lawful rigth to posses an animal? I'm not even sure I shoudl bother here....:lol: :lol:

There are 2 parts here: What you can keep for yourself, and what you can sell.

You can keep all parts of your fish. You can keep all your deer. You can keep all your birds. But you can't keep all your bear. You aren't even allowed to take it home for more than 48 hours.

You may not be able to sell the fish, but you are permitted to sell bird feathers, antlers and hides. Probably fish skins are permitted to sell, also.

Enron.....****snicker****:lol:

[300WM]

You are comparing the mismanagement of a public company to the lawful rigth to posses an animal? I'm not even sure I shoudl bother here....:lol: :lol:

There are 2 parts here: What you can keep for yourself, and what you can sell.

You can keep all parts of your fish. You can keep all your deer. You can keep all your birds. But you can't keep all your bear. You aren't even allowed to take it home.

You may not be able to sell the fish, but you are permitted to sell bird feathers, antlers and hides. Probably fish skins are permitted to sell, also.

Enron.....****snicker****:lol:

Actually, you are allowed to take the entire bear home (guts and all) as long as you dispose of the gut pile including the gall bladder within 48 hours.

[Gateholio]

Edited, thanks8-)

[Gateholio]

Actually, you are allowed to take the entire bear home (guts and all) as long as you dispose of the gut pile including the gall bladder within 48 hours.

Actually, this little tid bit pretty much makes the laws regarding galls a joke.

What is to stop a gall dealer form just recovering his bears whole, and taking them home?:lol:

[Will]

Actually, this little tid bit pretty much makes the laws regarding galls a joke.

What is to stop a gall dealer form just recovering his bears whole, and taking them home?:lol:
That's pretty much what I was hinting at..........
There will always be those that Poach.......regardless.
Heck even Does get Poached and thier Guts are worthless :lol:

Anyways Glad to hear there are some Places in Canada that have systems in Place for those that would like to Legally Make use of what is otherwise wasted.8)

I'd still like some Numbers on just how many Bears are actually Poached in BC for the Galls ???
Seems the Antis are the only ones with accurate Numbers about it :rolleyes:

[Browningmirage]

Enron.....****snicker****:lol:

Alright i will admit it was a bad example, but hey give me some room, i had just finished an exam, my brain was dead, and it was somewhat late, so i have my excuses. Chalk that up as Gatehouse 1 Browningmirage 0

MB Boy, yes the sockeye would not be worth as much because the market would be flooded. ill give you that. But how long could a person afford to sell sockeye at 5.00$ a pound for, and...How long would the supplies last, (once again, looking at the large scale, not just a neighborhood) sockeye, like bears are a finite resource, yes they are renewable, but only if managed properly.

[MB_Boy]

What about the concept of gall ballders being turned into govt or a wildlife organization who then would sell them under permit and turn the funds over to habita programs that government or they themselves might manage/operate

[Islandeer]

I think I will throw in my spring bear galls into the sausage mix. It will make it taste better.8)

[Will]

I think I will throw in my spring bear galls into the sausage mix. It will make it taste better.8)
Carefull you're not allowed to eat them...just the Crows:|

[MB_Boy]

What about the concept of gall ballders being turned into govt or a wildlife organization who then would sell them under permit and turn the funds over to habita programs that government or they themselves might manage/operate

Just for the record.......I let my Dad read this thread as we were talking about different ideas as he is the one of the heads of DNR in MB.......and..........I see with the post above that he took the liberty of replying under my name!

One more strong eggnog and he is going to get an earful and then taught how to become a member of the forum!!:lol: :lol:

[Islandeer]

I think you should give Dad a few more rums and then he can really tell us how he feels!!! The hunting community needs the wisdom of our more seasoned people. :lol: