Kootenay deer bag limit reduced

[reach]

Just a heads up they just reduced the regional bag limit for deer in Region 4 (Kootenays) from three to two. I guess it's effective immediately (Nov 29)?

See http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/hunting/news/

Never fails... like clockwork, as soon as I submit an app update, a few days later they issue a correction... grumble grumble...

[goinghunting]

Thanks for posting, I've gotta get in the habit of checking that more often!

[goinghunting]

How can this forum get copied into the bowhunting forum? There's alot of bowhunters about to go out and fill there remaining tags?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

That's a really dumb time to change it. Waiting until the archery season ends would make more sense.

SSS

[Brambles]

That's a really dumb time to change it. Waiting until the archery season ends would make more sense.

SSS

Timing is a little screwy but I'm glad they did it. Now kill the any point mulie season and put a kaibosh on the whitetail does and were on the right track.

[steel_ram]

I can't see how a quick reg change like that can fly. It would take a lot of effort to farely inform those that are still going by the previous regs.

[Islandeer]

More great local management. We are talking whitetails here..... shutting it down won't create any more bucks for next season. There was a very quiet mule deer season with the Nov 10th closure, coupled with very little snow, so curious why they would reduce the bag to 2 now. Maybe they saw the back of my brothers truck,they just came back with a truckload of whitie bucks.

[bcbrez]

now they just have to close the Oct doe season.

[Islandeer]

Timing is a little screwy but I'm glad they did it. Now kill the any point mulie season and put a kaibosh on the whitetail does and were on the right track.

Could live with no any buck muley, though you are then pounding 4 pts all season, young ones especially.

Fewer does will eventually result in more trophy class bucks, so a few more seasons I think will help. depends what you want i guess.

[limit time]

Timing is a little screwy but I'm glad they did it. Now kill the any point mulie season and put a kaibosh on the whitetail does and were on the right track.

Why are you glad they did it?

And what would you like for a mule season?

So... Why not stop all hunting?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Timing is a little screwy but I'm glad they did it. Now kill the any point mulie season and put a kaibosh on the whitetail does and were on the right track.

You want to help the mule deer by allowing the whitetail pop to increase?

SSS

[r106]

What does dropping the bag limit to 2 do for the muley's. Keep it at 3 and only one my be a mule deer. I thought they want to push back the white tale? by changing this rule less whit tales will be harvested.

[ElectricDyck]

I don't understand the reasoning behind this change? What are they trying to protect? Seems to me it'll just protect the white tails whom need no ones help to multiply...???

[bugler]

Well this will make almost no difference to just about everybody. It seems there are not too many with filled mulie tags around here anyway. The little bit of pressure removed from whitetail is welcome though, both species are miserably low around here at the moment.

[Everett]

What a joke any dishonest hunter will still be able to shoot three deer next year because he will have a valid synopsis that says three deer in region 4.

[OutWest]

now they just have to close the Oct doe season.

You want the October doe season closed why?

[Mikey Rafiki]

What a stupid time of year to do this. Are they that worried about the archery hunters? A kick in the balls for those who took a mule deer and a doe already and planned on the late season archery buck.

[rocksteady]

What does dropping the bag limit to 2 do for the muley's. Keep it at 3 and only one my be a mule deer. .

That is the way the regs are right now...

[Husky7mm]

Because it was a huge mistake and we will pay for it for years. It's was unsustainable! If you lived here you would see the difference. It's like a tap was turned off. They would not implament this emediatly if they were not concerned.
Didnt need a reduction, the deer( both) were already in regress last year!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

So should we return to being the only jurisdiction in North America without an antlerless whitetail season?

SSS

[goatdancer]

What a joke any dishonest hunter will still be able to shoot three deer next year because he will have a valid synopsis that says three deer in region 4.

It's the hunter's responsibility to check for any changes BEFORE going out to hunt.

[Husky7mm]

No, but one is enough.... Or save it for the kids and oldtimers....

[Rattler]

QUOTE=Brambles;1245483]Timing is a little screwy but I'm glad they did it. Now kill the any point mulie season and put a kaibosh on the whitetail does and were on the right track.[/QUOTE]

100% agree with this statement. In the West Kootenays the deer populations are in my mind critically low, especially Mule deer. Far too many predators, namely wolves combined with two back to back long winters and cold wet springs have reduced our deer numbers drastically. One has to hunt hard just to find Mule deer tracks now and when one does they are being dogged by wolves. I saw three today took a running shot one of them but was not successful.

Agree with others, the timing is not good, but IMHO it is the right decision.

[ElectricDyck]

We didn't notice any whitetail shortage, on our trip to the east kootnays we saw white tails a plenty, 4 guys limited out on does in just about one day......

[Brambles]

Could live with no any buck muley, though you are then pounding 4 pts all season, young ones especially.

Fewer does will eventually result in more trophy class bucks, so a few more seasons I think will help. depends what you want i guess.

Only if the doe numbers are soooo high that it is exceeding the carrying capacity of the land.........which it is FAR from doing. We need to build a population and resume an LEH doe season to limit the harvest.
Mass Killing of breeding females is a step in the wrong direction if you want a good population to hunt


You want to help the mule deer by allowing the whitetail pop to increase?

SSS

I'm not all about the mule deer, I hunt the whiteys too

Mule deer and whitetail arn't directly competeing in the WK, YET, not in an amount that is hurting any herds.....Population numbers are too low for that as we speak, if it comes to the point where the whitetail numbers are obviously too high then I would support a more liberal Whitetail season, but that time is NOT NOW.



What a joke any dishonest hunter will still be able to shoot three deer next year because he will have a valid synopsis that says three deer in region 4.

And that is WHY I'm opposed to the 2 year synopsis change. What a stupid idea that is.

[Husky7mm]

We didn't notice any whitetail shortage, on our trip to the east kootnays we saw white tails a plenty, 4 guys limited out on does in just about one day......
And that's why it's unsustainable ......

[Islandeer]

I disagree with the 2 year synopsis as well, wildlife variables change each season.

Especially opposed to blanket regulations for all of Region 4, each sub unit has its needs. I don't watch the movement of whities into muley habitat year round but can say i do observe them higher and higher into muley country. these observations are over the last 20 years in the EK. so there likely is some competition going on between whities and Mulies,at least in the EK.

So possibly ease up on the doe harvest in the WK and keep it in the EK.

[Brambles]

I disagree with the 2 year synopsis as well, wildlife variables change each season.

Especially opposed to blanket regulations for all of Region 4, each sub unit has its needs. I don't watch the movement of whities into muley habitat year round but can say i do observe them higher and higher into muley country. these observations are over the last 20 years in the EK. so there likely is some competition going on between whities and Mulies,at least in the EK.

So possibly ease up on the doe harvest in the WK and keep it in the EK.


Hey if the EK guys wan there doe season and the population is there to support it then have at er, but in most of the MU's in the WK the whitetail populations are doing just as bad as the mulies are.

As Rattler has said, increased predator presence, back to back hard and more importantly LOOOONNG winters combined with the mulie any buck season and the GOS whitetail doe season topped off with the alignment of different species GOS's has all contributed to a real hammering on deer populations. Time to take one for the team and start dialing it back a bit.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Hey if the EK guys wan there doe season and the population is there to support it then have at er, but in most of the MU's in the WK the whitetail populations are doing just as bad as the mulies are.

As Rattler has said, increased predator presence, back to back hard and more importantly LOOOONNG winters combined with the mulie any buck season and the GOS whitetail doe season topped off with the alignment of different species GOS's has all contributed to a real hammering on deer populations. Time to take one for the team and start dialing it back a bit.


How have the elk faired amoungst increased predator pressure??

SSS

[Brambles]

How have the elk faired amoungst increased predator pressure??

SSS


Dead healthy mature 6 point was found today with at least 3 wolves devouring it, the other elk in the valley were observed hightailing to high country with their toungue's hanging out and obviously very skittish. Something that is VERY unusual for those elk this time of year.

Looks like they killed it Monday Night and by first light today it was almost completely devoured.

[Islandeer]

Because it was a huge mistake and we will pay for it for years. It's was unsustainable! If you lived here you would see the difference. It's like a tap was turned off. They would not implament this emediatly if they were not concerned.
Didnt need a reduction, the deer( both) were already in regress last year!

Lol!! This reg change Husky has absolutely nothing to do with mule deer. And everything to do with saving Whitetails, for what?

Hungry wolves and cats?? How many whities do we need?

Funny thing about stats, mule deer harvest in the EK will be way down this year, a couple of contributing factors being the shortened season and the light snow in the back country. And so we are clear on bringing the mulies back in the EK, I would support a 4pt only season,hell I'd even go with no muley season if it would help bring them back. It wouldn't though,we went thru this last off season.

That's another thread ... :wink:

[Husky7mm]

The ek has had wolves for years and years, the elk seem to do better than the deer with wolves. The EK does not want the "deer cull" the rest of the province does so they have som thing to bring with them when they go elk hunting!

[ianwuzhere]

Dead healthy mature 6 point was found today with at least 3 wolves devouring it, the other elk in the valley were observed hightailing to high country with their toungue's hanging out and obviously very skittish. Something that is VERY unusual for those elk this time of year.

Looks like they killed it Monday Night and by first light today it was almost completely devoured.

any pix of dead wolves, or the elk?

[Islandeer]

Dead healthy mature 6 point was found today with at least 3 wolves devouring it, the other elk in the valley were observed hightailing to high country with their toungue's hanging out and obviously very skittish. Something that is VERY unusual for those elk this time of year.

Looks like they killed it Monday Night and by first light today it was almost completely devoured.

I noticed alot of wolf shit really high this season @ the 6500 ft levels,never seen it there before.

Running the top ridge trails. with you guys completely on whatever it takes to bring back our deer pops.

However if we can't make more muley habitat then we won't have more mulies, cows,and people have taken or altered alot of "their" country.

And as we all know we have become very good at allowing the valley bottoms to grow up with pines, good for whities and not so good for mulies it seems.

[Brambles]

any pix of dead wolves, or the elk?


I wasn't there for the discovery, I was there on Monday Night so it helps set a timeline. The only reason I brought it up was to offer some proof that these creatures are not just killing the young and weak, this was a prime bull. The rest of the elk herd was obviouisly stressed out and like I said, after years of watching these elk this is the first time they have acted like this. Not just a coincidence me thinks....

[OutWest]

How many times do guys like GG, 6616 and others need to explain that the any buck muley season will not make more mule deer before some guys actually grasp that concept?

[Brambles]

How many times do guys like GG, 6616 and others need to explain that the any buck muley season will not make more mule deer before some guys actually grasp that concept?


Im not grasping your angle?

[Husky7mm]

Lol!! This reg change Husky has absolutely nothing to do with mule deer. And everything to do with saving Whitetails, for what?

Hungry wolves and cats?? How many whities do we need?

Funny thing about stats, mule deer harvest in the EK will be way down this year, a couple of contributing factors being the shortened season and the light snow in the back country. And so we are clear on bringing the mulies back in the EK, I would support a 4pt only season,hell I'd even go with no muley season if it would help bring them back. It wouldn't though,we went thru this last off season.

That's another thread ... :wink:

Thats right and making a 3 deer deer limit did nothing to help reduce the harvest and take pressure of them either. It was a bad call. The ek deer pay the price for the elk population and the liberal season. OVER HARVEST is real and it has happened!

[Husky7mm]

I wasn't there for the discovery, I was there on Monday Night so it helps set a timeline. The only reason I brought it up was to offer some proof that these creatures are not just killing the young and weak, this was a prime bull. The rest of the elk herd was obviouisly stressed out and like I said, after years of watching these elk this is the first time they have acted like this. Not just a coincidence me thinks....
This is a regular occurance, its sad but that's nature. The predators are evolving and getting specialized.

[OutWest]

Im not grasping your angle?

I'm talking about the guys calling for an end to the any buck mule deer season thinking it will help make more deer. It's been explained numerous times in detail on here that it won't.

[358mag]

How have the elk faired amoungst increased predator pressure??

SSS
You talking about the 2 or 4 leg Predators ?

[Rattler]

Shooting any Muley buck can't help the Muley population...simple math in my books. The Mule deer population needs time to rebound and shooting any bucks just doesn't make sense.



I'm talking about the guys calling for an end to the any buck mule deer season thinking it will help make more deer. It's been explained numerous times in detail on here that it won't.

[dana]

The whiners on this site are never happy are they? Whine that the muley pops are in the toliet and now whine that too many whitetail does are being harvested? WTF??? Your muley pops are down because of 2 things, whitetails and elk. The science is simple. Whitetails are the most adaptable species in NA. Heavy harvest will in no way shape or form hurt them. It will however open up more oportunities for mule deer to recover. So what is it that you people want??? If you want no mule deer, cut the whitetail doe season off and hunt you precious dinky dog rat deer. If you indeed want to save the muleys, then harvest as many whitetails as you legally can. I myself took 2 this year to help our Muleys out. Proud as punch to shoot both a whitey doe and a 3x2 whitey buck. Both in areas where I never ever saw whitetails in 10 years ago. Both killed in classic mule deer range. Stop whining and do something to help your muleys out. Bitchin' and moaning and getting regs changed like this change does nothing to get you out of your mule deer delima. Choose your poison. Is it whiteys that you want to hunt or is it muleys?

[steel_ram]

I suspect two legged predators are more the problem than those with four. WT's are doing fine. Wolves are targeting mulies? Becoming specialized. Give us a break.

[Bigbullsh$tter]

I'm talking about the guys calling for an end to the any buck mule deer season thinking it will help make more deer. It's been explained numerous times in detail on here that it won't.
Nick...i've been thinking about this concept for awhile and i still have a hard time with it. Hear me out, say 200 mule deer bucks get killed in WK this year and only 50 of them being 4 points....the rest being 3pt or smaller. I have a hard time believing that if the "any buck" season is closed, that much more than 50 - 4 points are going to be killed. Odds are the people that are killing the 3pts and smaller bucks aren't the type of hunter to put in the effort to make a serious impact on mature bucks. My guess would be that if 50 - 4 pts are being killed in a region with an "any buck" season, you're not gonna get many more killed if you take out that "any buck" season. I don't think you can use simple math on this one, killing mature 4pts is much more challenging than killing a yearling 2pt.

Just my opinion......always open to hearing different perspectives.

[Jimmy4x4]

The whiners on this site are never happy are they? Whine that the muley pops are in the toliet and now whine that too many whitetail does are being harvested? WTF??? Your muley pops are down because of 2 things, whitetails and elk. The science is simple. Whitetails are the most adaptable species in NA. Heavy harvest will in no way shape or form hurt them. It will however open up more oportunities for mule deer to recover. So what is it that you people want??? If you want no mule deer, cut the whitetail doe season off and hunt you precious dinky dog rat deer. If you indeed want to save the muleys, then harvest as many whitetails as you legally can. I myself took 2 this year to help our Muleys out. Proud as punch to shoot both a whitey doe and a 3x2 whitey buck. Both in areas where I never ever saw whitetails in 10 years ago. Both killed in classic mule deer range. Stop whining and do something to help your muleys out. Bitchin' and moaning and getting regs changed like this change does nothing to get you out of your mule deer delima. Choose your poison. Is it whiteys that you want to hunt or is it muleys?

correct. the guys that are whining just dont want coastal warriors hunting "their" deer. its not about the deer, its about getting rid of other hunters. if it was about the deer then the science would win out instead of the whiners

[Ambush]

Whitetails taste WAY better and mule deer are too dumb to be fun hunting.

Let the stronger, smarter species claims it's rightful place.

[lovemywinchester]

The more WT does you shoot the better. Less does to breed means less work for the bucks in the rut which means more wt bucks make it through the winter. This is a proven method of game management to produce big bucks and healthy populations. I can't speak for the EK but after a few seasons of hunting region three there are many hunters that never see a WT buck. Ever. They are elusive. Numbers may seem down but WT are notorious for being nocturnal and super sketch. It doesn't mean they are not there. They are in fact all over the place here.

[Brambles]

I'm talking about the guys calling for an end to the any buck mule deer season thinking it will help make more deer. It's been explained numerous times in detail on here that it won't.

Although this is getting a little off topic, I belive that under ideal conditions and with it being the only variable that Goat and 6616 suppore valud arguments, but what im saying is its not the only variable and compounded issues have made a potpourri of meyham for mule deer populations.

When you increase hunting pressure in an area on the backs of GOS Elk hunting and at the same time align a completely open age class harvest of mule deer AND record high predator populations during back to back long winters your asking for trouble.

Cancelling any buck season will reduce harvest and give us time to turn this ship around!

Why cant people understand that?

[Jimmy4x4]

theres no sperm supply shortage. buck to doe ratios are fine. cancelling any buck wont make one extra mule deer, ever. you guys just dont know anything about how deer are managed. time for you all to button your lips and listen to goat guy and 6616 for a change. and if you want more mule deer you better kill every whitetail you can including does

[dana]

Nick...i've been thinking about this concept for awhile and i still have a hard time with it. Hear me out, say 200 mule deer bucks get killed in WK this year and only 50 of them being 4 points....the rest being 3pt or smaller. I have a hard time believing that if the "any buck" season is closed, that much more than 50 - 4 points are going to be killed. Odds are the people that are killing the 3pts and smaller bucks aren't the type of hunter to put in the effort to make a serious impact on mature bucks. My guess would be that if 50 - 4 pts are being killed in a region with an "any buck" season, you're not gonna get many more killed if you take out that "any buck" season. I don't think you can use simple math on this one, killing mature 4pts is much more challenging than killing a yearling 2pt.

Just my opinion......always open to hearing different perspectives.

Just because a buck is a 4 point by no means means it is an older age class bucks. With good genetics, bucks are basket 4's in their first year of growth. A basket 4 is by no means any smarter than a spiker or forky. And yup, they get whacked by the truckload in 4 point of better seasons. I see it all the time in my neck of the woods.

[dana]

Although this is getting a little off topic, I belive that under ideal conditions and with it being the only variable that Goat and 6616 suppore valud arguments, but what im saying is its not the only variable and compounded issues have made a potpourri of meyham for mule deer populations.

When you increase hunting pressure in an area on the backs of GOS Elk hunting and at the same time align a completely open age class harvest of mule deer AND record high predator populations during back to back long winters your asking for trouble.

Cancelling any buck season will reduce harvest and give us time to turn this ship around!

Why cant people understand that?

So if you actually care about the plight of mule deer in your area, why in the world would you be calling for the whitey doe season to be canceled???

[dana]

If the plight of the mule deer is so bad as some are claiming, would they support a complete moratorium on mule deer hunting in the Koots for the next 5 years???? This is where the rubber meets the road. If you aren't just being NIMBY's you would indeed support that if you truly cared about muleys. If you just want 4 point or better seasons, that will do nothing for your mule deer populations now will it? And for those who truly know what this is about, nope, you won't grow bigger bucks with just 4 point or better seasons either.

[Rattler]

Couldn't disagree more. Growing up in the West Kootenays we have always had good whitetail population up until about 5 years ago. Our whitetail numbers are waaaayyyy down. One use to be able to go for a drive and see a dozen or so whitetail, and now you are lucky if you even see one, letting alone finding deer sign. I hunted over 15 days in the WK this fall and only saw 8 whitetail, two of which were bucks. I work in the Forest industry and am amazed at the lack of deer sign in areas that use to be crawling with deer. I agree Whitetail are more dominant and have impacted Mule deer numbers. However, before the whitetail numbers started dropping there were decent Mule deer numbers as well, so I'm not convinced like you that they are the sole reason for MD decline.

Our deer numbers are down for two reason here in the WK's. First as I have said, we have had a couple of long winters with above average snowpack, combined with long cold wet springs, which as most know is very hard on deer. Second the predator numbers are very high especially wolves, which IMO are not normal for this area. Pick just about any drainage here in the West Koots and you will find wolf sign. Speaking with a few old timers they don't ever remember wolves around the WK's.

Getting the recent reg changed will go along ways to improving our Whitetail population. Reducing the predators, especially wolves will benefit all ungulates, mule deer the most. I would also like to add improving winter range habitat (prescribed burning) would greatly improve our Mule deer numbers. Something I wish the MOE did more of...




The whiners on this site are never happy are they? Whine that the muley pops are in the toliet and now whine that too many whitetail does are being harvested? WTF??? Your muley pops are down because of 2 things, whitetails and elk. The science is simple. Whitetails are the most adaptable species in NA. Heavy harvest will in no way shape or form hurt them. It will however open up more oportunities for mule deer to recover. So what is it that you people want??? If you want no mule deer, cut the whitetail doe season off and hunt you precious dinky dog rat deer. If you indeed want to save the muleys, then harvest as many whitetails as you legally can. I myself took 2 this year to help our Muleys out. Proud as punch to shoot both a whitey doe and a 3x2 whitey buck. Both in areas where I never ever saw whitetails in 10 years ago. Both killed in classic mule deer range. Stop whining and do something to help your muleys out. Bitchin' and moaning and getting regs changed like this change does nothing to get you out of your mule deer delima. Choose your poison. Is it whiteys that you want to hunt or is it muleys?

[Brambles]

Were not talkin buck to doe ratio's, were talkin population, you can still have a crappy population with a theoretical ideal buck to doe ratio!

Plus west koot deer surveys were extremely limited and called off due to low snow, buck to doe ratio's were based on two MU's, one MU has the best winter range in the WK and the ither MU is almost entirely NO HUNTING due to it being the largest tract of private property in BC!

Not reliable intel. IMO

[dana]

Just because the whitey pops are down doesn't mean that's a bad thing. That means the doe harvests are WORKING!!!!! You'll never ever get them to the point where they will be in critical decline unless the bad winters of the 60's and 70's were to somehow magically appear again. Whitetails are a very resiliant critter. The one thing you need to get your mule deer pops back up is to keep the whiteys at a much much lower pops. If you pull out of the whitetail management plan now, you will have done absolutely nothing for mule deer. The whitetails will be back up at high pops in a matter of a few years and the muleys will have never recovered and you will still be on the internet complaining about the lack of muleys. SHORT SIGHTEDNESS is going to get you no where. LOOK INTO THE FUTURE!!!! For the love of Mule Deer, keep those whiteys down!!!!

[Brambles]

So if you actually care about the plight of mule deer in your area, why in the world would you be calling for the whitey doe season to be canceled???


Because Im not seeing enough overlap on mule deer and whitetail populations to indicate that they are competing for habitat, plus shed hinting in the spring on winter range I have never found whitetail sheds with mulie sheds.

At this point I don't see a reason to obliterate one species to hopefully enchance another, just aint seeing it!

Elk might be another story though, jury us still deliberating, they very well might be competing for winter range with the mule deer

[Rattler]

Just because the whitey pops are down doesn't mean that's a bad thing. That means the doe harvests are WORKING!!!!! You'll never ever get them to the point where they will be in critical decline unless the bad winters of the 60's and 70's were to somehow magically appear again. Whitetails are a very resiliant critter. The one thing you need to get your mule deer pops back up is to keep the whiteys at a much much lower pops. If you pull out of the whitetail management plan now, you will have done absolutely nothing for mule deer. The whitetails will be back up at high pops in a matter of a few years and the muleys will have never recovered and you will still be on the internet complaining about the lack of muleys. SHORT SIGHTEDNESS is going to get you no where. LOOK INTO THE FUTURE!!!! For the love of Mule Deer, keep those whiteys down!!!!

I have no doubt that keeping Whitetail numbers down will benefit MD, but there is a threshold and IMO it has been crossed. I believe we have a lack of MD mainly because of the record high predators, namely wolves.

[Brambles]

If the government made a concious effort to enchance mule deer winter range and put togeter a viable plan for the enhancement if mule deer populations I would support a season closure. i don't think were quite there yet but, I still think kaiboshing the anybuck and keeping an only 4 point only season is a step in the right direction!

[one-shot-wonder]

Dont understand why government induced winter range enhancement would trigger you to support a season closure???? And until such time you will continue to hunt them?
Sounds like you have a phone call to make to your MLA in the morning.........

[Brambles]

Dont understand why government induced winter range enhancement would trigger you to support a season closure???? And until such time you will continue to hunt them?
Sounds like you have a phone call to make to your MLA in the morning.........


I enjoy hunting mule deer and i have a goal to get a monster for my wall, it would take a good gameplan which would include habitat enhancement to get me to believe that the plan is gonna be worth the sacrifice!

[Whonnock Boy]

Yeah, close em' down for five years then listen to the nimby's screaming of the inevitable 'slaughter' of mule deer.

[one-shot-wonder]

What is the buck:doe ratio like in the area you hunt? I dont doubt preds are a contributing factor.....All sepcies, especially the MD will benefit from habitat enhancement something I am sure that country is in dyer need of. Can you raise the issue with the local sportman club and see if there is interest in securing funding and manpower to get a rehab project of the ground this coming year?
Lots of sideliners these days on the web huffing and pufffing, we need people to focus energy into getting things done, either by the pushing Gov or by individuals at a grassroots level.

[Kody94]

The whiners on this site are never happy are they? Whine that the muley pops are in the toliet and now whine that too many whitetail does are being harvested? WTF??? Your muley pops are down because of 2 things, whitetails and elk. The science is simple. Whitetails are the most adaptable species in NA. Heavy harvest will in no way shape or form hurt them. It will however open up more oportunities for mule deer to recover. So what is it that you people want??? If you want no mule deer, cut the whitetail doe season off and hunt you precious dinky dog rat deer. If you indeed want to save the muleys, then harvest as many whitetails as you legally can. I myself took 2 this year to help our Muleys out. Proud as punch to shoot both a whitey doe and a 3x2 whitey buck. Both in areas where I never ever saw whitetails in 10 years ago. Both killed in classic mule deer range. Stop whining and do something to help your muleys out. Bitchin' and moaning and getting regs changed like this change does nothing to get you out of your mule deer delima. Choose your poison. Is it whiteys that you want to hunt or is it muleys?

Couldn't agree more Dana.

We still have tonnes of whitetails in the Zone Xs in the Trench. I don't think there was anything unsustainable about the hunt in the trench, or having a 3 deer limit in order to encourage people to take a doe, rather than hold onto both deer tags for November buck hunting.

I believe the whitetail are contributing to the low muley numbers. They, and elk, share winter range with muleys all up and down the trench. The winter range is in crappy shape, and by mid-late winter, everything is off of preferred browse and competing with each other.


Not only that, but whitetails and elk have probably been running pretty close to carrying capacity in the Trench the last few years...that's not the way we should be managing either species.


I agree that the issue doesn't likely exist outside of the Trench, particularly in the WK and Elk Valley. We did not propose the broad brush approach to Region 4. But gov't wouldn't consider a bag limit for just the EK, nor would they just restrict the doe season to the Zone X area where we really needed to focus the harvest.


Anyhoo, I am disappointed and want to hear the rationale for the change. I'd sure like to hear a realistic proposal for how we are going to deal with the mule deer issue, if hunters just want to keep stockpiling elk and whiteys in the Trench. Everyone just opposes everything and sits on their ass and criticizes government. It gets to be embarrassing to be a hunter when all we come to the table with is complaints, insults and unrealistic solutions.

[GoatGuy]

Short form: females are the ones that make more deer - NOT MALES. You do not have a sperm supply issue in the west Kootenay.

Predators kill females and young, poor habitat means females are less productive and are also more susceptible to predation, as are young. You have wolves in areas there haven't been wolves for 50+ years in marginal habitat with winter range that is underwater because it is being used to generate power so people can watch tv and so that government can pull more tax money out of your pocket.

Want more mule deer deal with habitat and predation. The rest is useless chatter that will prevent any kind of recovery effort. Having a healthy buck:doe ratio of 20:100 is the same whether you have 2,000 or 10,000 deer and you guys are well on your way to 2,000.

This is a very, very, very simple concept. Suggest you get on the bandwagon of making more deer and get off the bandwagon of ending up with less.

[coach]

An in-season change to protect whitetails from bow hunters? What's the rationale? We can argue until we are blue in the face about mulw deer management - but this decision was about WT's. Are we trying to feed more wolves?

[Islandeer]

you nailed KD ...... tons of whities elko to to Newgate too.

[reach]

An in-season change to protect whitetails from bow hunters? What's the rationale? We can argue until we are blue in the face about mulw deer management - but this decision was about WT's. Are we trying to feed more wolves?
Very true. The bag limit for mule deer was one before and remains one. So this change only affects whitetails.

[Kody94]

you nailed KD ...... tons of whities elko to to Newgate too.

And all the way up to Settler's Road! Folks that don't think so, sure have their blinders on. I shot my first ever whitey doe this year, on principle and to introduce a new hunter to processing game. I went to an area where I know whitetails and muleys both wither. I went out for less than two hours, driving from Cranbrook, on the 2nd last day of the doe season. We shot the 24th or 25th doe we saw! Thats after nearly 3 weeks of education, in an area with lots of hunting pressure, from a road.

[Kody94]

An in-season change to protect whitetails from bow hunters? What's the rationale? We can argue until we are blue in the face about mulw deer management - but this decision was about WT's. Are we trying to feed more wolves?

I am absolutely baffled by the timing too. The EKWA has not been informed about the change or any rationale....which is more disappointing than the change itself.

[16ga]

I am confused, wasn't the bag limit change done in the June update?

[hunter1947]

Timing is a little screwy but I'm glad they did it. Now kill the any point mulie season and put a kaibosh on the whitetail does and were on the right track.

X2 couldn't agree more with your post..

[hunter1947]

My thoughts where that they the management wanted to get the WT deer does thinned out so that the buck to doe ratio was at a more respectable number??:confused:?? ,,if it is as said you are only allowed one WT deer starting now in region 4 I know that I will not be shooting a WT deer doe next year it will be a WT buck and how many others out there will be doing the same thing as me taking a WT buck for 2013 what will happen then with the doe to buck ratio ?????..

In region 4 two WT does or one WT buck and a WT doe and a four point mule deer ,,what I have saw out there there are still way to many does at least in the area I hunt ,,my guess on the buck to doe ratio is still at 30 does to one buck in my hunting area and this sighting was in mid Nov this year.

If the management want to do something good they should figure out a way to bring back more mule deer in the EK region throttling back on the WT to me is not the right thing to do ,,,does not free up more habitat for elk and mule deer ,,,but then again who am I to say I only spend 6 months of the year out in the bush to see nothing I guess


The predator problem is also a big issue at least in the area I hunt never saw any wolf or heard them in where I have hunted for the last 44 years till about 10 years ago now the wolfs keep me awake some night with there howling ,,there every where as for cats..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7fa1u3vfI4

I don't like the way the wildlife branch implemented this change this late in the year there will be lots of illegal deer shot from hunters that are still out there in the bush http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon13.png,,like others have said they should have waited till after the bow season was over for region four..

Is this thread for real or is it a joke ??:confused:??

[oclarkii]

Same shit different day.....

[Jimmy4x4]

I have no doubt that keeping Whitetail numbers down will benefit MD, but there is a threshold and IMO it has been crossed. I believe we have a lack of MD mainly because of the record high predators, namely wolves.


you better explain then why in 21 cases where wolves were reduced to enhance mule deer numbers only 1 case resulted in more mule deer. your problem for mule deer numbers is habitat being competed for with elk and whitetail and you guys want to shut down whitetail unreal

[hunter1947]

These clips goes to show you how bad the wolf poulation is getting in some regions and to save the mule deer and others getting the wolf number to a respectival number is going to take some doing from us the hunters and game management ,,we as hunter can only do so much its going to take a lot more to have the wolf poulation reduced to a comfortable number..

Here is a few clips of wolfs that are calling I tryied calling them in for hours but they qwould not come in ,,,, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7fa1u3vfI4

[Elkaholic]

This I think is one of the dumbest things they could have done. There are WT in the EK everywhere.... The people I hear complaining must hunt 2 minutes from town like everybody does and those deer get educated they are not stupid animals. We have WT deer out the ying yang, and removing this will screw with people who enjoy harvesting meat not just bone! Also this is an absurd way to notify people, I don't know what the best way would be but there has to be something better. All I know is where I have been hunting for 18 years I have not noticed a dent in the WT pops with the new liberal seasons at all. This will not fix the Mulw deer.

[hunter1947]

Where is Andy 6616 we need your input regarding this thread..

[Husky7mm]

The whiners on this site are never happy are they? Whine that the muley pops are in the toliet and now whine that too many whitetail does are being harvested? WTF??? Your muley pops are down because of 2 things, whitetails and elk. The science is simple. Whitetails are the most adaptable species in NA. Heavy harvest will in no way shape or form hurt them. It will however open up more oportunities for mule deer to recover. So what is it that you people want??? If you want no mule deer, cut the whitetail doe season off and hunt you precious dinky dog rat deer. If you indeed want to save the muleys, then harvest as many whitetails as you legally can. I myself took 2 this year to help our Muleys out. Proud as punch to shoot both a whitey doe and a 3x2 whitey buck. Both in areas where I never ever saw whitetails in 10 years ago. Both killed in classic mule deer range. Stop whining and do something to help your muleys out. Bitchin' and moaning and getting regs changed like this change does nothing to get you out of your mule deer delima. Choose your poison. Is it whiteys that you want to hunt or is it muleys?
Big difference between here and there. The wt have always been here. If anything the elk have had more of a negative effect on the mule deer. The ek easily has enough winter range to support, a healthy population of both deer. Much of the time they are wintering in different habitat anyway.

[eastkoot]

I was told that this stems from an error in the regs. from last year and it was missed and printed. I was checked and was hunting mule deer but had 2 wt tags cut. CO said the only reason I was able to be hunting after killing 2 deer in region 4 was because of a mistake in the regs. which was going to be corrected..

[hunter1947]

I was told that this stems from an error in the regs. from last year and it was missed and printed. I was checked and was hunting mule deer but had 2 wt tags cut. CO said the only reason I was able to be hunting after killing 2 deer in region 4 was because of a mistake in the regs. which was going to be corrected..


Ok I see this does make sense but what gets me is why did the management do this change so late in the hunting season ????..

[16ga]

I think it was changed in the June update, or am I reading this wrong?

[hunter1947]

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.huntingbc.ca%2Fforum%2Fshowth read.php%3F89469-Kootenay-deer-bag-limit-reduced%2Fpage2&ei=Udm4UO76Iur3iwKq3YGYAw&usg=AFQjCNGm5o-KtN8NRzjVIQslLO0Q71IMRw

[goinghunting]

Short form: females are the ones that make more deer - NOT MALES. You do not have a sperm supply issue in the west Kootenay.

Predators kill females and young, poor habitat means females are less productive and are also more susceptible to predation, as are young. You have wolves in areas there haven't been wolves for 50+ years in marginal habitat with winter range that is underwater because it is being used to generate power so people can watch tv and so that government can pull more tax money out of your pocket.

Want more mule deer deal with habitat and predation. The rest is useless chatter that will prevent any kind of recovery effort. Having a healthy buck:doe ratio of 20:100 is the same whether you have 2,000 or 10,000 deer and you guys are well on your way to 2,000.

This is a very, very, very simple concept. Suggest you get on the bandwagon of making more deer and get off the bandwagon of ending up with less.


BINGO! In the WK we need some burns really bad to create some habitat, and we need to get our predators under control in a big way!

[dougan]

Why are you glad they did it?

And what would you like for a mule season?

So... Why not stop all hunting?
Whatever bud don't get your panties in a bunch no one cares that your about to explain what a great biologist you are and you know what's best for deer herds . Save your breath go take a crap instead way more productive.

[Husky7mm]

Well in the ek they did do some burns, some thinning, a bit of mulching, and dropped a lot of trees in the trench..... There was also a few fires in the last few years, not big ones but something. The deer numbers are way down where I hunt, and it is not 5 mins from town either. It is common sense to understand that the wt that we are seeing in large numbers for the last month are a collection of handfuls of them from many different watersheds, I believe for the most part when you see a whitetail doe or does close to the road you are seeing the bulk of them. The predators push them there.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Everyone should start smoking and chewing trident sugarless gum.


SSS

[Husky7mm]

They have over many years bought some ranches to turn the CPU, (cows per unit) ( iirc) over to wildlife as well.
On a positive note I saw way more fawns this year, and somewhat less predator sign! Only hunted about 45 days....

[OutWest]

Way too much anecdotal information being tossed out here.

You want more mule deer so you'd like to shorten the October whiteail doe season as well as the any buck mule season? Kind of a contradiction. You're not going to reduce the number of hunter kills or make more mule deer with that approach. Your buck:doe ratios are fine so implementing a 4 point season really accomplishes nothing other than satisfying a bunch of nimby's crying foul about a slaughter.

This topic has been beat to death in many other threads. It's time guys get on board with the real issues instead of worrying about more restrictions that aren't going to accomplish the end goal.

No wonder the guys who are actually in the know get tired of explaining things over and over. You can only bang your head against the wall so many times..

[sawmill]

So,I got back from hunting last night,next to last last day of rifle season with a great Whitie buck.Third tag for me.2 does and a buck,as per the regs.What do I do now?Turn myself in because they changed the regs at the eleventh hour?This shit was not posted back in July or September or any other goddamn time until yesterday.I know this because I check the updates at least once a week.Pure crap in my opinion to kill the last 2 days of rifle season and all the bow season as well.


Now to be clear,I didn`t get a buck last night,just proving a point.I did go out with a buddy and in 20 minutes we saw 17 whitie does and 3 small bucks 5 MILES FROM TOWN!!!!I`ll bet a lot of guys did punch (or will) the third tag today.What do they do?You can`t change the f*cking rules with 2 minutes left in the third period.

Whities are like U-Vic bunnies around here,I`d like to choke a few of the idiots who dictate policy.

And in case any of you friggen dolts are reading this,thanks for f*cking my bow hunt.

[sawmill]

P.S. get off your asses and out into the field for a change.

[Everett]

I for one have seen no shortage of WT does this fall, we counted 45 does and 3 bucks last sunday just cruising around road hunting a small area in the trench. We also counted 23 MD does and 6 MD bucks already on winter range. But the big one was Elk we must have seen over 400 Elk in the same area.

[eastkoot]

So,I got back from hunting last night,next to last last day of rifle season with a great Whitie buck.Third tag for me.2 does and a buck,as per the regs.What do I do now?Turn myself in because they changed the regs at the eleventh hour?This shit was not posted back in July or September or any other goddamn time until yesterday.I know this because I check the updates at least once a week.Pure crap in my opinion to kill the last 2 days of rifle season and all the bow season as well.


I'd turn myself in cause even with the old regs, without the change, you are not to take 3 WT's...It's 2 Wt's ONE can be a buck, or 2 does... Regional bag limit after the 2 whities can include a MD to make a total of 3..After 2 WT's your tagged out for whities..

[Ron.C]

Agree 100%, bad call to change the rules this late in the season.

We hunted in 4-3 zone x and 4-25 in late Sept/early Oct. TONS of WT deer in both areas. Both bucks and does. It was however the first year we got up high and tried for Mule deer. In the area we hunted, there was a disctinct elevation where the WT deer sightings dropped to near nothing and the MD sightings began. And it wasn't overly high. We saw what I though was pleanty of MD, but the guys we ran into told us that area was much better a few years ago beofre they logged a large portion of bush in the areas.

[hunter1947]

Thank god I only shot two deer in region 4 in for the 2012 season or I guess I would have to had turned myself in for committing an illegal act on the bag limit if I had taken a mule deer buck.. ....

[Husky7mm]

I'd turn myself in cause even with the old regs, without the change, you are not to take 3 WT's...It's 2 Wt's ONE can be a buck, or 2 does... Regional bag limit after the 2 whities can include a MD to make a total of 3..After 2 WT's your tagged out for whities..
Lol I wonder how many did that!!!!

[sawmill]

I'd turn myself in cause even with the old regs, without the change, you are not to take 3 WT's...It's 2 Wt's ONE can be a buck, or 2 does... Regional bag limit after the 2 whities can include a MD to make a total of 3..After 2 WT's your tagged out for whities..

Why would you go with the old Reg`s????That`s why the print NEW Reg`s.This years clearly states you can take 3 deer here,one mule buck and 2 whities.As for Whities it states 3,only one of which may be a buck.Why not just run off the Regs for 1975 if you are basing your season on OUTDATED REGS.Man,you gotta learn to read better.

[Husky7mm]

I for one have seen no shortage of WT does this fall, we counted 45 does and 3 bucks last sunday just cruising around road hunting a small area in the trench. We also counted 23 MD does and 6 MD bucks already on winter range. But the big one was Elk we must have seen over 400 Elk in the same area.
Well it is of coarse a collection of many deer and elk from many different Valleys and watersheds, but for sure if you told me 6-7 years ago that the elk would soon outnumber the wt I would not have believed my ears. Today most areas I hunt have more elk than wt.

[Husky7mm]

I suspect two legged predators are more the problem than those with four. WT's are doing fine. Wolves are targeting mulies? Becoming specialized. Give us a break.
Well they are....

[sawmill]

Thank god I only shot two deer in region 4 in for the 2012 season or I guess I would have to had turned myself in for committing an illegal act on the bag limit if I had taken a mule deer buck.. ....

C`mon Wayne,what if you shot all 3 Whities before Nov. 29?Turn yourself and your rifle and the meat in?
Thing that really pisses me off is that a lot of guys don`t have accses to the Internet.What do they do?Go to the CO office every day before they hunt?I just talked to 4 guys today that think I`m bullshitting them about this.

[16ga]

C`mon Wayne,what if you shot all 3 Whities before Nov. 29?Turn yourself and your rifle and the meat in?
Thing that really pisses me off is that a lot of guys don`t have accses to the Internet.What do they do?Go to the CO office every day before they hunt?I just talked to 4 guys today that think I`m bullshitting them about this.

This is the link to the June Update, http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/hunting/regulations/1214/docs/CorrectionsPoster.pdf,

[hunter1947]

When I had a meeting at the wildlife branch six weeks ago we had talked about the three deer bag limit in region four there was nothing mentioned then about reducing the deer bag limit to two at this time..

[eastkoot]

Why would you go with the old Reg`s????That`s why the print NEW Reg`s.This years clearly states you can take 3 deer here,one mule buck and 2 whities.As for Whities it states 3,only one of which may be a buck.Why not just run off the Regs for 1975 if you are basing your season on OUTDATED REGS.Man,you gotta learn to read better.
What part of 3 don't you see here???

To quote the regs:
The aggregate bag limit in the Kootenay region is 3 (THREE), The bag limit for mule deer is ONE. The bag limit for white-tailed is TWO; BOTH MAY BE ANTERLESS, but only one may be a buck.

So, you cannot or could not this year before the changes take 3 whitetails.. 2whitetails and a mulie = 3 total.. NOT 3 whitetail!!

The new regs state the aggregate is now 2 deer, with the same restrictions to make that aggregate bag limit up..

[Elkaholic]

When I had a meeting at the wildlife branch six weeks ago we had talked about the three deer bag limit in region four there was nothing mentioned then about reducing the deer bag limit to two at this time..

What that should show is that even the CO's have no f'in clue. So how are the hunters supposed to keep up with it? The hunting community isnt typically the most tech savvy you can find, so computers a pretty well not used. There has to be a better way to deliver the updates to the regs so people can be aware of them. Its funny now to hear people bitch about too many elk, well then why dont we open up 3pt and better again? But that is too taboo for peoples brains to take. We have to take a look at all the factors, not do a knee jerk reaction to change the bag limits. How bout we use some f'ing science, why else do we have our tax dollars going to these Bio's if they aren't doing the job or aren't being allowed to do it.

[Husky7mm]

correct. the guys that are whining just dont want coastal warriors hunting "their" deer. its not about the deer, its about getting rid of other hunters. if it was about the deer then the science would win out instead of the whiners

Perhaps you would see it different if you werent one.....
There is another new factor that has to be consider in wildlife management, well informed large groups of traveling hunters, willing to hit every season they can, 3 deer, an elk, a moose a sheep and a goat. They arnt fussy:P
they got an inbox full of pm's and a hundred other tips from strangers that just don't add. The GOS just can't take that kind of pressure. It creates peaks and valleys

[sawmill]

This is the link to the June Update, http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/hunting/regulations/1214/docs/CorrectionsPoster.pdf,

Oh shit!I stand corrected.But that came out before the regs were even issued.I just checked the main Gov site and they say as of Nov. 29.Gotta spend more time on the computer machine than hunting.

[sawmill]

Screw it all,I`m tagged at two.Leave it at that.

[bcbrez]

Why would you go with the old Reg`s????That`s why the print NEW Reg`s.This years clearly states you can take 3 deer here,one mule buck and 2 whities.As for Whities it states 3,only one of which may be a buck.Why not just run off the Regs for 1975 if you are basing your season on OUTDATED REGS.Man,you gotta learn to read better.

Are you saying you actually shot three whities in region 4 this year. You might want to revisit your regulations. Clearly says the bag limit for white-tailed deer is two. Both may be antlerless, but only one may be a buck.

[Kody94]

Well in the ek they did do some burns, some thinning, a bit of mulching, and dropped a lot of trees in the trench..... There was also a few fires in the last few years, not big ones but something. The deer numbers are way down where I hunt, and it is not 5 mins from town either. It is common sense to understand that the wt that we are seeing in large numbers for the last month are a collection of handfuls of them from many different watersheds, I believe for the most part when you see a whitetail doe or does close to the road you are seeing the bulk of them. The predators push them there.

I couldn't disagree more. I see just the opposite...I think there are spots where the whitetails have made themselves scarce temporarilly (presumablydue to presence of predator), but generally are in good numbers throughout the trench. I hunt in a number of areas from Skook to the US border, and I don't usually hunt roads, and there are whiteys everywhere....including traditional muley winter range.

[bcbrez]

So,I got back from hunting last night,next to last last day of rifle season with a great Whitie buck.Third tag for me.2 does and a buck,as per the regs.What do I do now?Turn myself in because they changed the regs at the eleventh hour?This shit was not posted back in July or September or any other goddamn time until yesterday.I know this because I check the updates at least once a week.Pure crap in my opinion to kill the last 2 days of rifle season and all the bow season as well.


Now to be clear,I didn`t get a buck last night,just proving a point.I did go out with a buddy and in 20 minutes we saw 17 whitie does and 3 small bucks 5 MILES FROM TOWN!!!!I`ll bet a lot of guys did punch (or will) the third tag today.What do they do?You can`t change the f*cking rules with 2 minutes left in the third period.

Whities are like U-Vic bunnies around here,I`d like to choke a few of the idiots who dictate policy.

And in case any of you friggen dolts are reading this,thanks for f*cking my bow hunt.


How exactly did they F@ck your bow hunt. Were you planning on going for four deer this year?

[reach]

This is the link to the June Update, http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/hunting/regulations/1214/docs/CorrectionsPoster.pdf,
They update that page with every correction. So even if it's the same link you used back in June, what it shows today is not what it showed 2 days ago. They just made the change for region 4 yesterday.

[16ga]

They update that page with every correction. So even if it's the same link you used back in June, what it shows today is not what it showed 2 days ago. They just made the change for region 4 yesterday.
Thanks, that is what I was asking about earlier.

[6616]

Where is Andy 6616 we need your input regarding this thread..

How many times does this need rehashed? Didn't we go through all this in the mulw deer thread just a couple months ago?
Dana and Cody94 are correct as far as the EK is concerned. I don't disagree with Brambles either as far as the WK is concerned. Keep in mind the major differences between the EK and WK, a common reg for both sides may not be a viable option.

[sawmill]

I SAID I took 2 .A doe and a buck,sheesh.

[sawmill]

They update that page with every correction. So even if it's the same link you used back in June, what it shows today is not what it showed 2 days ago. They just made the change for region 4 yesterday.

Thank you.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

How many times does this need rehashed? Didn't we go through all this in the mulw deer thread just a couple months ago?
Dana and Cody94 are correct as far as the EK is concerned. I don't disagree with Brambles either as far as the WK is concerned. Keep in mind the major differences between the EK and WK, a common reg for both sides may not be a viable option.

For those who need a refresher......
http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?74753-Mulw-deer-population&highlight=Mulw+deer

[HarryToolips]

Thats a good thing, now they just need to reduce the regional bag limit for the Thompson to two as well..In regions 3, 4, and 8, I think they should reduce the mule deer "any buck" season to Oct 1 to 25, reduce the whitetail doe season to Oct 10 to 25, and cut back the whitetail buck season to finish a week sooner or so as well. This would result in more deer, meaning more hunting opportunity! If anyone agrees with me, then send your local MOE e-mails, with enough of us doing this they'll eventually have to listen.

[GoatGuy]

Thats a good thing, now they just need to reduce the regional bag limit for the Thompson to two as well..In regions 3, 4, and 8, I think they should reduce the mule deer "any buck" season to Oct 1 to 25, reduce the whitetail doe season to Oct 10 to 25, and cut back the whitetail buck season to finish a week sooner or so as well. This would result in more deer, meaning more hunting opportunity! If anyone agrees with me, then send your local MOE e-mails, with enough of us doing this they'll eventually have to listen.
Unfortunately, this is completely incorrect.

[Mikey Rafiki]

Just talked to a CO while out in region 4. He's not enforcing this change and is not even bringing it up. He asked where I hear about it and I said the Internet. Anyone that is calling him to ask he is telling them it was printed as 3 and that's what he's working with.

[bcbrez]

I SAID I took 2 .A doe and a buck,sheesh.

No this is what you said....Third tag for me.2 does and a buck,as per the regs.

[reach]

Just talked to a CO while out in region 4. He's not enforcing this change and is not even bringing it up. He asked where I hear about it and I said the Internet. Anyone that is calling him to ask he is telling them it was printed as 3 and that's what he's working with.
Now that's some interesting info. I guess they are just as annoyed at the strange timing and lack of any warning ahead of time as we are.

[Sitkaspruce]

So,I got back from hunting last night,next to last last day of rifle season with a great Whitie buck.Third tag for me.2 does and a buck,as per the regs.What do I do now?Turn myself in because they changed the regs at the eleventh hour?This shit was not posted back in July or September or any other goddamn time until yesterday.I know this because I check the updates at least once a week.Pure crap in my opinion to kill the last 2 days of rifle season and all the bow season as well.


Now to be clear,I didn`t get a buck last night,just proving a point.I did go out with a buddy and in 20 minutes we saw 17 whitie does and 3 small bucks 5 MILES FROM TOWN!!!!I`ll bet a lot of guys did punch (or will) the third tag today.What do they do?You can`t change the f*cking rules with 2 minutes left in the third period.

Whities are like U-Vic bunnies around here,I`d like to choke a few of the idiots who dictate policy.

And in case any of you friggen dolts are reading this,thanks for f*cking my bow hunt.


No this is what you said....Third tag for me.2 does and a buck,as per the regs.

bcbrez

Read the whole post, I highlighted it in red and made it bigger so it will be easier to read.:wink:
:mrgreen:
Cheers

SS

[cruiser]

Just talked to a CO while out in region 4. He's not enforcing this change and is not even bringing it up. He asked where I hear about it and I said the Internet. Anyone that is calling him to ask he is telling them it was printed as 3 and that's what he's working with.

Interesting, but I could see that. There are still a lot of guys out there that only go by whats printed on paper. Heck I know some people who have never worked a computer, and vow they never will. Doing 2 year regs was not a good idea if they want adaptive management.

[bcbrez]

bcbrez

Read the whole post, I highlighted it in red and made it bigger so it will be easier to read.:wink:
:mrgreen:
Cheers

SS


Thanks.
Sorry Sawmill. I was at our local archery shop the other day and a guy showed up with his actual third white tail in reg 4. Guess I'm still a little steamed about it.

Again sorry.

[338 whisper]

I talked to the co's in the Cranbrook office to day at 2:00 P.M they said they were not going to enforce the the 2 deer bag limit for reg 4 because it is in the regs as 3 deer ag limit for reg 4 till the end of next year and that it would get thrown out of court any ways. They did not think they will be able to enforce this next year for the same reasons. He told me that they were not even suposed to be 3 deer ag for reg 4 this year that it was just a proposal but some how it got printed in the regs.

[*bcgold*]

I've been hunting for many years, but I'm not a hard core hunter compared to alot of you guys I see on this forum. I was wondering how far do you have to go to find updates like this one. You read the reg book, you buy a tag from a sporting store (you can ask but are they informed?) What I'm reading its almost you have to phone Victoria before you go for an update of your area. Where does a hunter draw a line that he's informed? Sorry if this ? sounds dumb.

[Rattler]

I don't know where you live, but if you grew up in the WK like I did then you would realize there is a major predator problem on our hands right now. Both MD and Whitetail numbers are way down. Reducing the predators will certainly help ungulates.

We have to stop comparing the WK and EK. It is diabolical that they are managed the same way. Different habitat types and the EK has far more game than the WK. I believe the winter range in the EK is the main reason for this difference.

Maybe the shut down of whitetail in the EK is a mistake, given the high whitetail numbers in this region, however it is very different in the WK, thus the reason I support this recent change.

[reach]

I've been hunting for many years, but I'm not a hard core hunter compared to alot of you guys I see on this forum. I was wondering how far do you have to go to find updates like this one. You read the reg book, you buy a tag from a sporting store (you can ask but are they informed?) What I'm reading its almost you have to phone Victoria before you go for an update of your area. Where does a hunter draw a line that he's informed? Sorry if this ? sounds dumb.
I think the best you could hope to do is to check the hunting news website before you go for any corrections to the printed version.

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/hunting/news/

[dana]

I don't know where you live, but if you grew up in the WK like I did then you would realize there is a major predator problem on our hands right now. Both MD and Whitetail numbers are way down. Reducing the predators will certainly help ungulates.

We have to stop comparing the WK and EK. It is diabolical that they are managed the same way. Different habitat types and the EK has far more game than the WK. I believe the winter range in the EK is the main reason for this difference.

Maybe the shut down of whitetail in the EK is a mistake, given the high whitetail numbers in this region, however it is very different in the WK, thus the reason I support this recent change.


I happen to live in a very similiar eco-type and have been dealing with a much higher concentration of wolves for numerous years now. I can tell ya, damn rights the deer and moose numbers are way down from the highs of 5-10 years ago. Hunting is extremely hard here. Heck, I had a week off during the peak of the rut and put on well over 100 kms on boot leather and in 7 days I saw a total of 4 deer. So don't cry me a freakin river about how bad you have it in the WKs. If you aren't prepared to ask for a complete moratorium on mule deer hunting for the next 5 years then I will refuse to support your plight. As I see it as nothing but sour grapes NIMBY attitudes about why you didn't get a big buck. Hunt hard and accept it for what it is. Be a man and stop being a baby. Big bucks do not grow behind every tree. They require serious effort. And nope, cutting yourselves down to just a 4 point of better season will not do a damn thing for ya. Instead, it will work against ya. It has been tried in countless jurisdictions over the west and has led to an epic fail everytime when it is the only season. You will see very little drop in hunter success but you will see a bunch of good genetics killed off in yearling and 2 year old 4 points. Way better to let the meat hunters whack the genetically inferior spikes and forkys. The yearling 4 points will then have a chance to actually grow up into the whoppers that you dream about. I have beat the drum for several years and am freakin tired of the 'you don't know what it is like here' bull$hit. Grow a pair and get out and hunt. Stop blaming everyone and everything for your lack of success. You might think I'm a dick, I really don't care. Stop with the Trophy Wannabe bull$hit cause it makes real Trophy Hunters embarressed.

[bugler]

Wow, a few pages since last night!! One thing I have to say, though. There is no way that whitetail numbers are causing the mule deer decline here in the southern trench. There are waaaaayyyyy less of both species since even the turn of the century. Yes, there are still whitetail in numbers that will allow any semi competent hunter to shoot a yearling buck and a doe in the same day under the right conditions. Whooooppppeeeeeee. That just does not cut it where I grew up. (here). Maybe we are spoiled here in the EK. Some of us are used to passing multiple WT bucks per day with a 3 or 4 year old buck as a high probability this time of year. And while we were passing those deer, we would watch multiple mulie bucks going about their unhunted business. Those days are gone.

Hunted whities today. In a two hour walk crossed 5 wolf tracks, 2 griz tracks and a cougar track. Wolves howling across the valley.

[dana]

When my family first started hunting the EK in the 80's we shown the area by a good family friend who had hunted the Koots his whole life. We saw plenty of whitetails and he said that they were very new to the area. He said he used to see nothing but muleys and then slowly the whitetails creeped in. That was 30 years ago. Do ya think things have changed and the muleys got their ground back??? NO FREAKIN WAY! There isn't much for muleys in that country today. To say the whitetails haven't overtook classic mule deer range in the EK is just plain ass DUMB!!!!

[dana]

As for wolf tracks, I had 4 sets at work yesterday morning. Was over a 100 kms away up another drainage at the beggining of the week, mulitple sets with nothing else in the drainage but caribou. Sunday, I took the boy out to see if we could find him an LEH Doe, saw nothing but wolf tracks in that unit. Crossed the river to look for a 4 point for the evening hunt up another drainage, nothing but wolf tracks.And why did I see only 4 deer in 7 days of hunting. A pack of wolves were hunting the exact same spot as me. All tracks were from different packs. Deer don't stand out in the open when they are hunted by wolves. They hit the thick timber. That's where I've been hunting. With the dry noisy conditions we have, sneekin' up on them is more than a challenge. But guess what, they are there. Big Uns too!

[eastkoot]

I did go out with a buddy and in 20 minutes we saw 17 whitie does and 3 small bucks 5 MILES FROM TOWN!!!!I`ll bet a lot of guys did punch (or will) the third tag today.What do they do?You can`t change the f*cking rules with 2 minutes left in the third period.



That's fine provided one was a muley which I doubt very much!!!! 2 whities +1 mulie = 3 aggregate AOK. Remember???2 whities + another whitey is a NONO!!!

[Rattler]

I wasn't quoting you....meant to quote Jonnny. You are a real piece of work!


I happen to live in a very similiar eco-type and have been dealing with a much higher concentration of wolves for numerous years now. I can tell ya, damn rights the deer and moose numbers are way down from the highs of 5-10 years ago. Hunting is extremely hard here. Heck, I had a week off during the peak of the rut and put on well over 100 kms on boot leather and in 7 days I saw a total of 4 deer. So don't cry me a freakin river about how bad you have it in the WKs. If you aren't prepared to ask for a complete moratorium on mule deer hunting for the next 5 years then I will refuse to support your plight. As I see it as nothing but sour grapes NIMBY attitudes about why you didn't get a big buck. Hunt hard and accept it for what it is. Be a man and stop being a baby. Big bucks do not grow behind every tree. They require serious effort. And nope, cutting yourselves down to just a 4 point of better season will not do a damn thing for ya. Instead, it will work against ya. It has been tried in countless jurisdictions over the west and has led to an epic fail everytime when it is the only season. You will see very little drop in hunter success but you will see a bunch of good genetics killed off in yearling and 2 year old 4 points. Way better to let the meat hunters whack the genetically inferior spikes and forkys. The yearling 4 points will then have a chance to actually grow up into the whoppers that you dream about. I have beat the drum for several years and am freakin tired of the 'you don't know what it is like here' bull$hit. Grow a pair and get out and hunt. Stop blaming everyone and everything for your lack of success. You might think I'm a dick, I really don't care. Stop with the Trophy Wannabe bull$hit cause it makes real Trophy Hunters embarressed.

[bugler]

Well I don't know exactly where your friend lived. If it was in the northern part of the trench I can't comment on his experience. We moved to Cranbrook and started hunting in the late 70's and I can tell you that both species were abundant from Canal Flats south right through to the 90's. The bad winter of 96/97 hit both hard and both seemed to recover a bit, though WT did better, but I'm telling you that they are both way down since the early 2000's and way down from the 80's. It is absolutely not some crazy increase in WT numbers that are causing our mule deer problems. I'm not saying it is because of hunting pressure necessarily, but killing off WT is not the solution to our MD situation.

[dana]

I wasn't quoting you....meant to quote Jonnny. You are a real piece of work!

Yup I am. Just sick and tired of the Wannabes pushing their agendas. If the mule deer numbers are truly bad in the WK, I would strongly support a 5 year moritorium for the sake of conservation. But I will not support, wannabe agendas who just are trying to keep 'out-of-towners' out of their neck of the woods. If you are not willing to eat your own tags for 5 years for the sake of conservation, then the situation can't be that bad can it?

[goinghunting]

Yup I am. Just sick and tired of the Wannabes pushing their agendas. If the mule deer numbers are truly bad in the WK, I would strongly support a 5 year moritorium for the sake of conservation. But I will not support, wannabe agendas who just are trying to keep 'out-of-towners' out of their neck of the woods. If you are not willing to eat your own tags for 5 years for the sake of conservation, then the situation can't be that bad can it?

Would happily end muledeer hunting in the WK for the next 5 years, there are a few kicking around still and always will be. I've had alot of success with mulies in the wk's in the past but now I head for region 8 to hunt. Since the 96/97 winter our muledeer numbers never bounced back and now predators are at an all time high, a guys almost wasting his time in WK's when your looking for a trophy buck!

[Rattler]

Yup I am. Just sick and tired of the Wannabes pushing their agendas. If the mule deer numbers are truly bad in the WK, I would strongly support a 5 year moritorium for the sake of conservation. But I will not support, wannabe agendas who just are trying to keep 'out-of-towners' out of their neck of the woods. If you are not willing to eat your own tags for 5 years for the sake of conservation, then the situation can't be that bad can it?

This has absolutely nothing to do with keeping the out of towners out of my neck of the woods. Heck they can come here all day long, I could care less. Most don't get out of their truck anyway and where I hunt, I rarely see other hunters. I am simply stating the predator numbers are abnormally high here in the WK. I'm not pushing any agenda, the deer numbers are low, there is no doubt about it. I hunt hard and push miles of timber chasing trophy bucks. I haven't found a Muley buck worthy of shooting in 4 years now. I'm not sour that is just the way it is when one is after a trophy MD. What I have a hard time with is seeing very little deer sign and that includes the timber. This includes alpine and late season hunting.

[Everett]

Well took the wife out for a drive this evening looking for her WT buck. Just cruising a few easy access cuts right off the highway we saw 13 MD does 9 WT does and one wall hanger WT buck which the wife coudn't connect on. This was in just over an hour of lazy road hunting in a well known area.
I peronaly have come to the opinion that those who claim there is limited amounts of WT deer in the EK are just lazy or incompetant hunters.

As for the WK I am not an expert but I did head over to Rossland to hunt with a buddy this year and there was lots of deer everywere we went. Oh my buddy is a new hunter and an immigrant with no hunting exsperiance yet he was seeing deer everyday he hunted this year, his freezer is full with very little effort.

[kootenayelkslayer]

I was pretty surprised by the lack of mule deer sign when I got to hunt the WK last season. I was hunting places that I use to see lots of sign in 5 or 6 years earlier. More surprising, and contrary to what Brambles has noticed, I was bumping into white-tails in most of the places I expected to find mulies. I actually killed a pretty nice whitey in a valley that I use to hunt mule deer in. It was my opinion that the white-tails were bouncing back pretty strong after the winter kills in the mid to late 90's.

[dana]

This has absolutely nothing to do with keeping the out of towners out of my neck of the woods. Heck they can come here all day long, I could care less. Most don't get out of their truck anyway and where I hunt, I rarely see other hunters. I am simply stating the predator numbers are abnormally high here in the WK. I'm not pushing any agenda, the deer numbers are low, there is no doubt about it. I hunt hard and push miles of timber chasing trophy bucks. I haven't found a Muley buck worthy of shooting in 4 years now. I'm not sour that is just the way it is when one is after a trophy MD. What I have a hard time with is seeing very little deer sign and that includes the timber. This includes alpine and late season hunting.

So how is going to strictly 4 point or better and caning the whitetail doe hunt going to change things? Are the muleys going to bounce back suddenly because hunters are now killing yearling 4 points instead of yearling spikes?

[Rattler]

So how is going to strictly 4 point or better and caning the whitetail doe hunt going to change things? Are the muleys going to bounce back suddenly because hunters are now killing yearling 4 points instead of yearling spikes?

I'm in favour of a doe season once the WT deer populations bounce back, I just don't think their populations are high enough to sustain this hunt in the WK. I certainly don't agree with a WK 3 deer bag limit when the deer populations are as low as we have seen in a long time.

No I don't think the MD are going to bounce back suddenly, but it sure as heck can't hurt their population not to be shooting smaller bucks. We have no idea what the buck to doe ratio is like in the WK? As Brambles has indicated, they haven't completed a thorough study of MD in the WK to conclude how the population is doing or what the average buck to doe ratio is...Once this has been determined we can better understand how to manage WK MD. Heck it might show their numbers are too low to sustain any kind of a season, and if that happens I would support a full closure if we could have assurance that the season wouldn't be lost forever. Maybe we need to go with a shorter season all together, say three weeks after the elk season is over.

We need to improve MD winter range by advocating for more prescribed burns and brushing. Also need to manage elk and moose populations carefully, as I believe they are directly competing with MD on their winter range. Lastly, predator control is needed and in a big way.

[ques deer]

bulshiet thts bullshiet

[The Dude]

bulshiet thts bullshiet

I think they're therious.

[Brambles]

I happen to live in a very similiar eco-type and have been dealing with a much higher concentration of wolves for numerous years now. I can tell ya, damn rights the deer and moose numbers are way down from the highs of 5-10 years ago. Hunting is extremely hard here. Heck, I had a week off during the peak of the rut and put on well over 100 kms on boot leather and in 7 days I saw a total of 4 deer. So don't cry me a freakin river about how bad you have it in the WKs. If you aren't prepared to ask for a complete moratorium on mule deer hunting for the next 5 years then I will refuse to support your plight. As I see it as nothing but sour grapes NIMBY attitudes about why you didn't get a big buck. Hunt hard and accept it for what it is. Be a man and stop being a baby. Big bucks do not grow behind every tree. They require serious effort. And nope, cutting yourselves down to just a 4 point of better season will not do a damn thing for ya. Instead, it will work against ya. It has been tried in countless jurisdictions over the west and has led to an epic fail everytime when it is the only season. You will see very little drop in hunter success but you will see a bunch of good genetics killed off in yearling and 2 year old 4 points. Way better to let the meat hunters whack the genetically inferior spikes and forkys. The yearling 4 points will then have a chance to actually grow up into the whoppers that you dream about. I have beat the drum for several years and am freakin tired of the 'you don't know what it is like here' bull$hit. Grow a pair and get out and hunt. Stop blaming everyone and everything for your lack of success. You might think I'm a dick, I really don't care. Stop with the Trophy Wannabe bull$hit cause it makes real Trophy Hunters embarressed.


When my family first started hunting the EK in the 80's we shown the area by a good family friend who had hunted the Koots his whole life. We saw plenty of whitetails and he said that they were very new to the area. He said he used to see nothing but muleys and then slowly the whitetails creeped in. That was 30 years ago. Do ya think things have changed and the muleys got their ground back??? NO FREAKIN WAY! There isn't much for muleys in that country today. To say the whitetails haven't overtook classic mule deer range in the EK is just plain ass DUMB!!!!


As for wolf tracks, I had 4 sets at work yesterday morning. Was over a 100 kms away up another drainage at the beggining of the week, mulitple sets with nothing else in the drainage but caribou. Sunday, I took the boy out to see if we could find him an LEH Doe, saw nothing but wolf tracks in that unit. Crossed the river to look for a 4 point for the evening hunt up another drainage, nothing but wolf tracks.And why did I see only 4 deer in 7 days of hunting. A pack of wolves were hunting the exact same spot as me. All tracks were from different packs. Deer don't stand out in the open when they are hunted by wolves. They hit the thick timber. That's where I've been hunting. With the dry noisy conditions we have, sneekin' up on them is more than a challenge. But guess what, they are there. Big Uns too!


Yup I am. Just sick and tired of the Wannabes pushing their agendas. If the mule deer numbers are truly bad in the WK, I would strongly support a 5 year moritorium for the sake of conservation. But I will not support, wannabe agendas who just are trying to keep 'out-of-towners' out of their neck of the woods. If you are not willing to eat your own tags for 5 years for the sake of conservation, then the situation can't be that bad can it?

I find myself wanting to try and have a worthwhile conversation with you because pieces of what you have to say make some sense, not all are applicable IMO but with discussion and modifications it might help find an answer. HOWEVER, after reading comments like this I can only come to the conclusion that your arrogance will ALWAYS get in the way of intellegent conversation. If you could just leave the little man syndrome at the door things might go smoother but obviously you have some sort of issues that you need to work through on a personal level in order to play nice with others.

You call it whining, but I call it raising a valid concern before it goes to the point where drastic measures need to be taken. As Rattler and I have said the government studies on mule deer conducted in the WK are incomplete and what data was collected was collected from 4-7 and 4-6. For those that don't know, Nature conservancy trust (prior Darkwoods Property) AKA: NO HUNTING own probably 80% of the land in MU 4-7, and its a muther phuckin huge MU. The other was 4-6, The eco system in 4-6 is kinda a hybrid zone between the East Kootenay's and West Kootenays, It has much better winter range, and more of it.
These two MU's are not indicitive of typical West Kootenay.

Predators ARE becoming a real concern, they are making their way West at an alarming rate. Again, trying to raise awareness prior to it becoming an issue that's irreversible. Maybe it will inspire more guys to get out there and start hunting wolves, I know I'm gonna try. I read in our club newsletter that they have purchased a foxpro as a loaner for guys who need one. Good plan, though one is probably not enough...., Looking at buying a cheap snowmobile to assist in hunting wolves.

Winters, well what the hell can you do about that one.????

You chock it up to "just dealing with it" its kinda like an ostrich hiding its head in the sand hoping that the trouble is gonna pass you by. You accuse us of an hidden agenda, I assure you I don't have that kind of spare time on my hands that I can mastermind a hidden agenda. I just tell it like I see it, and i don't really care if you support us or not, in fact we're not asking for your support.


Regarding the original topic of this thread.
Personally I had no problem with a Whitetail doe open season and a aggregate bag limit of 2 deer/1 being a WT doe, hell even an aggregate limit of 3 deer/1 being a WT doe I was open minded to, but when I seen that you could shoot 2 does that just seemed to excessive. Thats just how I feel. regarding the whole doe issue.


I'm sick of typing, Have fun, play safe and go kill a wolf or ten

[hunter1947]

Just talked to a CO while out in region 4. He's not enforcing this change and is not even bringing it up. He asked where I hear about it and I said the Internet. Anyone that is calling him to ask he is telling them it was printed as 3 and that's what he's working with.

Good post thats what I wanted to hear..

[Husky7mm]

I happen to live in a very similiar eco-type and have been dealing with a much higher concentration of wolves for numerous years now. I can tell ya, damn rights the deer and moose numbers are way down from the highs of 5-10 years ago. Hunting is extremely hard here. Heck, I had a week off during the peak of the rut and put on well over 100 kms on boot leather and in 7 days I saw a total of 4 deer. So don't cry me a freakin river about how bad you have it in the WKs. If you aren't prepared to ask for a complete moratorium on mule deer hunting for the next 5 years then I will refuse to support your plight. As I see it as nothing but sour grapes NIMBY attitudes about why you didn't get a big buck. Hunt hard and accept it for what it is. Be a man and stop being a baby. Big bucks do not grow behind every tree. They require serious effort. And nope, cutting yourselves down to just a 4 point of better season will not do a damn thing for ya. Instead, it will work against ya. It has been tried in countless jurisdictions over the west and has led to an epic fail everytime when it is the only season. You will see very little drop in hunter success but you will see a bunch of good genetics killed off in yearling and 2 year old 4 points. Way better to let the meat hunters whack the genetically inferior spikes and forkys. The yearling 4 points will then have a chance to actually grow up into the whoppers that you dream about. I have beat the drum for several years and am freakin tired of the 'you don't know what it is like here' bull$hit. Grow a pair and get out and hunt. Stop blaming everyone and everything for your lack of success. You might think I'm a dick, I really don't care. Stop with the Trophy Wannabe bull$hit cause it makes real Trophy Hunters embarressed.
Wow if I had a nickel for every time your are dick hurling unsults and running your mouth about how you can speak for the whole province And about how much worse you have it, I would have a whole sock full of nickels to beat you with....

[Islandeer]

Great post Brambles, very informative. Overall I feel that what is clearly needed is some current mule deer survey data for the WK. Information is power.

The blanket approach employed by MOE fails to provide the correct measures that each management unit requires. I would assert that region wide regulations reflect financial limitations within MOE.

[Islandeer]

Wow if I had a nickel for every time your are dick hurling unsults and running your mouth about how you can speak for the whole province And about how much worse you have it, I would have a whole sock full of nickels to beat you with....

Never to late for that anger management course Husky !! lol :wink:

[steel_ram]

I'd rather them error on the side of conservation. Shut MD down for 5 years, at least during the rut or late season.

[reach]

Well it looks like they forgot to update the "deer bag limits explained" table on page 17. It still says 3 for region 4. I'm starting to agree with the COs that this change is not enforceable.

[Husky7mm]

Well some will abuse that grey area, however who really needs 3 deer plus whatever else they got this season. My guess is if there was a 4 deer limit and it was cut back to 3 folks would complain also. " (moan) I don't get to shoot a deer every time I go out" Boo hoo!

[GoatGuy]

I'd rather them error on the side of conservation. Shut MD down for 5 years, at least during the rut or late season.
After 5 years there will be no more mule deer.

The problems in the west Kootenay and the east Kootenay in relation to mule deer are not related to hunting.

this is like putting a band-aid on your forehead when you're having a massive heart attack. "It can't hurt, right?"

[GoatGuy]

Well some will abuse that grey area, however who really needs 3 deer plus whatever else they got this season. My guess is if there was a 4 deer limit and it was cut back to 3 folks would complain also. " (moan) I don't get to shoot a deer every time I go out" Boo hoo!

We easily consume 3 deer at our place every year. Some people buy beef, others eat wild game.

[ElectricDyck]

We easily consume 3 deer at our place every year. Some people buy beef, others eat wild game.

X2 for a family of 4 and we'll still buy a little chicken and beef.

Regarding the white tail season in the east koots.....we were the only ones interested in limiting out, the locals were un interested in does and other guys were just shooting one, I really don't think the liberal season will have much of an impact on population numbers. I hadn't seen deer that thick ever, it was like shooting grouse.

Very tasty too:
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd75/ElectricDyck/East%20Kootnays%202012/IMG_0624.jpg

[OutWest]

Regulated hunting is not the problem and never will be. Some guys just refuse to get it.

[Brambles]

Hey Goat, does the ministry have any idea what the individual wolf pack sizes and numbers are in the WK?

[Brambles]

Regulated hunting is not the problem and never will be. Some guys just refuse to get it.

Depending on if the regulation is appropriate or not will dictate weather its a problem or not. Just because something is regulated doesnt mean its being regulated correctly!

Its like saying if you invest you money you will end up with more money. The catch is if your money is invested poorly then your gonna end up with squat

[GoatGuy]

Hey Goat, does the ministry have any idea what the individual wolf pack sizes and numbers are in the WK?

No, the provincial wolf population estimate goes like this:

1) Habitat capability through GIS etc
2) Prey species estimate based on habitat capability
3) Wolf estimate based on prey species estimate

Most of the folks in the F&W Branch want nothing to do with the wolf management plan - everyone recognizes it's political garbage.

[Brambles]

Any talk in putting in a no closed season, no bag limit?
With reports stating that hunting isnt an effective tool in wolf management at least they can do is give us the ability to kill on sight. Im sure some guys do regardless, but more would if it was actually legal!!!

[GoatGuy]

Depending on if the regulation is appropriate or not will dictate weather its a problem or not. Just because something is regulated doesnt mean its being regulated correctly!

Its like saying if you invest you money you will end up with more money. The catch is if your money is invested poorly then your gonna end up with squat

The difference between investing and wildlife management is beliefs versus science.

Most stock brokers are nothing more than glorified salesman that believe they can make you money (and themselves of course) because they got a 8 week crash course on a couple of metrics and reading a BL sheet and inc statement. They are told what to sell and to be honest most of the haven't the foggiest idea about investing.

Wildlife management and research is an outcome of the scientific method. While it is an evolving SCIENCE, the currently available science when it comes to deer and elk is very, very good.

Unfortunately some people use their beliefs and ignore science when it comes to wildlife management.

Hunting regulations for mule deer in the West Kootenay are ABSOLUTELY NOT the or a problem.

[Brambles]

The difference between investing and wildlife management is beliefs versus science.

Most stock brokers are nothing more than glorified salesman that believe they can make you money (and themselves of course) because they got a 8 week crash course on a couple of metrics and reading a BL sheet and inc statement. They are told what to sell and to be honest most of the haven't the foggiest idea about investing.

Wildlife management and research is an outcome of the scientific method. While it is an evolving SCIENCE, the currently available science when it comes to deer and elk is very, very good.

Unfortunately some people use their beliefs and ignore science when it comes to wildlife management.

Hunting regulations for mule deer in the West Kootenay are ABSOLUTELY NOT the or a problem.

Of course it was an over simplication but the end result is the same regardless, if anything isn't done right it can fail.

What makes me doubt your science is the fact that the ministry is making decisions based on incomplete studies, blanket policies for E & W kootenays and putting two year regulations out to boot. Tell me how a scientific method can be effective under these circumstances. Plus an employee of the ministry in the WK was heard in a discussion that they only care about the elk and don't care about the mule deer! I sure hope this was heard out of context but question what context this could have sounded right in!!

So to be blunt..... WHAT EXACTLY is the problem with mule deer in the WK? And what is being done to remedy it? How can we help?

[GoatGuy]

Any talk in putting in a no closed season, no bag limit?
With reports stating that hunting isnt an effective tool in wolf management at least they can do is give us the ability to kill on sight. Im sure some guys do regardless, but more would if it was actually legal!!!


Any talk in putting in a no closed season, no bag limit?
With reports stating that hunting isnt an effective tool in wolf management at least they can do is give us the ability to kill on sight. Im sure some guys do regardless, but more would if it was actually legal!!!

Sure, if you want, won't do anything though.

Science tells us the sustainable harvest rate for wolves is somewhere between ~30-50%. To reduced wolves you need to reduce the population by 80% annually.

In the West Kootenays you will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever reduce the population with no bag limits, no closed season. You need gun ships and poison. Period.

The only way you're going to see the wolf population come down is once the prey species crash, in particular moose. After that you'll probably end up with lower densities of elk, deer and very few moose.

By the sounds of it you're well on your way to that now.

I don't understand why people can't wrap their head around this stuff. The options are:

1) Feel like you're doing something
2) Do something

[Brambles]

Those numbers are depressing, but if you could institute a no closed season, no bag limit then I'd be grateful. Obviously there isn't a conservation concern so what harm is there in giving us the opportunity to cull a few more per year. Might not stop the problem but every little bit helps.

[GoatGuy]

Of course it was an over simplication but the end result is the same regardless, if anything isn't done right it can fail.

What makes me doubt your science is the fact that the ministry is making decisions based on incomplete studies, blanket policies for E & W kootenays and putting two year regulations out to boot. Tell me how a scientific method can be effective under these circumstances. Plus an employee of the ministry in the WK was heard in a discussion that they only care about the elk and don't care about the mule deer! I sure hope this was heard out of context but question what context this could have sounded right in!!

So to be blunt..... WHAT EXACTLY is the problem with mule deer in the WK? And what is being done to remedy it? How can we help?

Sounds like more BS out of the WK - people invent things constantly and consistently over there, somebody heard it and then it becomes fact. The garbage that comes out of that place is absolutely unparalleled across BC - never heard so much gossip, worse than a group of caddy coastal housewives. It makes the Raincoast enviros seem credible. The Greek's have nothing on the WK.

The only way the elk and mule deer BUCKS ONLY hunting seasons will negatively affect the deer population is if the male:female sex ratio goes below 10:100. With a 6 pt elk season it is STATISTICALLY IMPOSSIBLE. With MD and the current season the likelihood of this happening is slim to none.

For the third time on this thread alone - girls make babies, babies make more deer/elk. You don't shoot girls or babies in the WK, so you've only got two other potential problems. Either they're being eaten, they aren't being fed properly, or both.

Habitat and predation are you problems. There's already all kinds of research out of the WK and P.D. on mule deer, white-tailed deer and cougar population dynamics. Even if you just dealt with habitat I guarantee the MD would take-off in the WK. If you burned the first 500' of timber on the big lakes the deer would absolutely, without a doubt, take-off.

What to do?

Contact your MLA, tell them you want more money invested in fish and wildlife management, you want habitat enhancement and you want predator management. Tell them the deer are disappearing and it isn't because of hunting. Tell them you won't vote for them if they don't support wildlife management and make sure you send all of your letters to your MLA to your local paper.

Start sending hate mail to BC Hydro - tell them they aren't paying enough for sinking all of the winter range along the lakes and they need to start paying for burns and predator management. We're talking tens of millions annually. Send all your letters to your MLA and your local paper.

Start sending letters to the editor whenever there is an anti-hunting, anti-predator management article in the province or vancouver sun.

Tell all your friends to do the same and tell the nimrods over there to shut it when they start mouthing off about some trivial regulation that will achieve absolutely nothing for wildlife.

This is a political fight. We need money and political will - we won't get either of those fighting over hunting regulations that have absolutely nothing to do with the current state of mule deer or elk populations in the WK.

Sorry if this comes off harsh, but I swear I have never seen such an uncoordinated, schizophrenic, uninformed, eat you own, out of touch with reality, bunch in my entire life. Instead of trying to help wildlife all they do is spread rumours and sh*t down everyone who does work's throat. Per capita there are more researchers and subject matter experts on wildlife management than any other place in BC and none of them can stand being within 5' of a 'hunter' because all they want to do is tell them how to save mule deer by change the season 5 days.

I don't get it: Why don't people want to do something that actually benefits wildlife?

[GoatGuy]

Those numbers are depressing, but if you could institute a no closed season, no bag limit then I'd be grateful. Obviously there isn't a conservation concern so what harm is there in giving us the opportunity to cull a few more per year. Might not stop the problem but every little bit helps.

How many people do you know out of the thousands in the WK which have been limited by the 3 wolf bag limit? My point is this: the regulation change will not help. It will be a waste of time and energy.

Do you want regulations that make you feel good or do you want more deer?

[steel_ram]

A cull, including that of wolves is meant to improve the heard. Do you really want to do that with wolves? As stated, to effectively bring down the wolf population by unnatural means, (if realistically possible) everything has to be thrown at them, and that is not going to happen. In other words, the efforts of a few sportsman may even have the opposite effect desired. Seems like the wildlife managers are controlling the predators, the ones they can . . . us!

Maybe we've seen the boom years and perhaps there isn't supposed to be a Mule deer behind every tree.

[Brambles]

How many people do you know out of the thousands in the WK which have been limited by the 3 wolf bag limit? My point is this: the regulation change will not help. It will be a waste of time and energy.

Do you want regulations that make you feel good or do you want more deer?



They make stupid regulation changes all the time, whats the harm in one more. Guys out camping with his family in august and see's a pack of wolves, he should have the ability to cull them legally IMO. Hell a couple guys get organized and go out on a mission to help out the deer, they should have the abililty. I like to think the ministry has acknowledged the issue and will take appropriate action, but I fear that isn't the case. I don't care what Steel Ram thinks, you kill one wolf, 2 do not take its place, aint "lord of the rings" shit here!!!

I gotta admit Goat, some of your arguments are compelling but this one has me thinking something is up. Whats the problem here. Wolves are a problem, everyone knows they are, you state that its impossible to hurt their numbers by hunting but you won't even give us the tools to help. You say get out there and do something about it but we gotta stop and pushing paper and licking envelopes. Thats fine and dandy but give us the tools where the rubber meets the road.

You say, it can't be done so don't even try. Thats a defeatist attitude.

You say Gunships and poison is the only solution, well if I knew the govt was gonna go that route in the south, cause I know they did it up north, then I'd rest my head soundly at night knowing our interests are being looked after. I don't believe this is the case. I do understand that if they did something like that then they would keep it on the Down Low. I could only imagine the shit storm that would blow in if they advertised a wolf cull. Look whats happening with the 6 canadian wolves that were killed in Washington...

[GoatGuy]

They make stupid regulation changes all the time, whats the harm in one more. Guys out camping with his family in august and see's a pack of wolves, he should have the ability to cull them legally IMO. Hell a couple guys get organized and go out on a mission to help out the deer, they should have the abililty. I like to think the ministry has acknowledged the issue and will take appropriate action, but I fear that isn't the case. I don't care what Steel Ram thinks, you kill one wolf, 2 do not take its place, aint "lord of the rings" shit here!!!

I gotta admit Goat, some of your arguments are compelling but this one has me thinking something is up. Whats the problem here. Wolves are a problem, everyone knows they are, you state that its impossible to hurt their numbers by hunting but you won't even give us the tools to help. You say get out there and do something about it but we gotta stop and pushing paper and licking envelopes. Thats fine and dandy but give us the tools where the rubber meets the road.

You say, it can't be done so don't even try. Thats a defeatist attitude.

You say Gunships and poison is the only solution, well if I knew the govt was gonna go that route in the south, cause I know they did it up north, then I'd rest my head soundly at night knowing our interests are being looked after. I don't believe this is the case. I do understand that if they did something like that then they would keep it on the Down Low. I could only imagine the shit storm that would blow in if they advertised a wolf cull. Look whats happening with the 6 canadian wolves that were killed in Washington...

There are two different approaches here: People that want to make more deer and people that want to change regulations.

There are probably 1,000 eco nuts in BC and 90,000 hunters.

Speak your mind and you will drive change.

[Brambles]

Well I remember'd I got an email that I didn't have time to read regarding this issue so I set a reminder to get it done.

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/public-consultation/grey-wolf/

Gonna read it and do my comments tomorrow

Not sure if its been posted up on HBC yet but I"m gonna make a post too get guys to support wolf management

[Brambles]

Well I searched and see you already posted a link to this, I honeslty don't know how I missed it, I got a lot of reading to do.......:oops:

[dana]

There are two different approaches here: People that want to make more deer and people that want to change regulations.



It seems that every year the ranks of Kootney Wannabee Trophy hunters get together and take turns coming up with stupid ideas in Regulation changes. It seems Brambles and Rattler have joined the ranks and have not paid attention in the slightest to the Mulw Deer issues.

GG is absolutely right. This is political and being realistic, I know there is absolutely not one thing we can do. Calling your MLA is freakin' pointless with the fact there is an upcoming election in the spring and most current MLA's will be out of a job soon. Helis and poison will never happen legally. It will take a bunch of people willing to risk hunting privalages, financial ruin and jail time to ever see any results in the south. Sorry for being realistic, but I don't live in a fairy tale land. That is why I just go out and hunt and deal with the conditions I have. There is absolutely nothing I can do, no different than controling the weather. Why be pissed off at something you have no control over. I take the attitude that a bad day of hunting is still way better than a good day at work.

[GoatGuy]

It seems that every year the ranks of Kootney Wannabee Trophy hunters get together and take turns coming up with stupid ideas in Regulation changes. It seems Brambles and Rattler have joined the ranks and have not paid attention in the slightest to the Mulw Deer issues.

GG is absolutely right. This is political and being realistic, I know there is absolutely not one thing we can do. Calling your MLA is freakin' pointless with the fact there is an upcoming election in the spring and most current MLA's will be out of a job soon. Helis and poison will never happen legally. It will take a bunch of people willing to risk hunting privalages, financial ruin and jail time to ever see any results in the south. Sorry for being realistic, but I don't live in a fairy tale land. That is why I just go out and hunt and deal with the conditions I have. There is absolutely nothing I can do, no different than controling the weather. Why be pissed off at something you have no control over. I take the attitude that a bad day of hunting is still way better than a good day at work.

Now is the perfect time, you're voting in the people who will represent you over the next 4 years. Hunters have the ability to control the outcome of the vote in most of BC's rural ridings.

They're doing poison and aerial in Alaska and Alberta. We will see it for caribou in the next 2 years if we start pounding away on it.

[dana]

In 2 years there won't be any caribou left. The dogs ate the moose and now they are having caribou for dessert. They missed the boat and now she's sunk.

[steel_ram]

Are the wolves coming into town and eating babies yet? Since they ran out of "Mulw" deer to eat. Heck, the zombie apocalypse is more believable threat.

The wildlife population is what it is. Go out and hunt it. Those in charge know what they're doing. Unfortunately nature isn't a precise science.

[Husky7mm]

Regulated hunting is not the problem and never will be. Some guys just refuse to get it.
Why is there still really healthy elk populations outside of the trench, and in the trench now, after the elk season is over?

[Ambush]

Most policy is developed in response to pressure from the electorate. If everything is going smooth, then politicians take the easy ride and coast along.
Get mad, get a bunch of people and get in their face!! You can affect change through hard work and perseverance. You only have to look at the efforts and results of a very few ultra dedicated anti's. Think "great bear rain forest" and no bear hunting.

Animals need habitat as a first priority. Everything else is supplemental.

Either organize and force habitat enhancement or let everything, including predators, crash and then let the cycle start all over again.

Be willing to look for unlikely partners, such as Hydro and the sawmilling industry. That stuff looks good on them because they can advertise their "greenness' and regular city folks eat that shit up.

Make it happen or let it happen. But the outcomes will be very different.

[GoatGuy]

In 2 years there won't be any caribou left. The dogs ate the moose and now they are having caribou for dessert. They missed the boat and now she's sunk.

There are caribou populations all over the province that need help from YK to the Montana border - it isn't just the caribou in your backyard.

[dana]

Oh sorry, I forgot about the 4 that were left in the Koots. ;)

[Brambles]

Its a small population but if we sacrificed everything small we'd put you in a burlap sack and drown you!!! Which right about now I'm a big supporter of!!!

[dana]

Now is the perfect time, you're voting in the people who will represent you over the next 4 years. Hunters have the ability to control the outcome of the vote in most of BC's rural ridings.

They're doing poison and aerial in Alaska and Alberta. We will see it for caribou in the next 2 years if we start pounding away on it.

I did the bang the drum thing last election. My conclusion, all politicians will lie through their teeth and tell ya anything you want to hear to get your vote. Once the election is done, they go about their own agenda. Even if you get some politicians on your side in rural BC, they will be either backbenchers or opposition and they won't be able to effect change regardless of what they tell ya to get your votes.

[dana]

Its a small population but if we sacrificed everything small we'd put you in a burlap sack and drown you!!! Which right about now I'm a big supporter of!!!

Still crying there Brambles. Man it up and take your lumps or else you can continue to be the girly man and whine that you didn't get a big buck this year.

[Brambles]

Your proving my point, your little man syndrome is off the charts!

But thats OK, every once in a while everybody needs a reminder of what a class act you are! A true pillar of society!

I'm embarrased for your children, to have a father who behaves like a school brat!

[Husky7mm]

Dana, why are you so interested in the region 4 anyways? Someone says something about region 4 and within a few hrs you show up and start puffing up your skinny chest and telling everyone what a lazy wanna be hunter they are. I don't see anyone else on here doing that everytime someone in region 3 farts. Am I to believe that a couple homely Dana's came over here in the 80's and hunted with a few locals and you now get to be the authority here, nothing changes? When the last time you stepped foot in region 4? I wouldn't dare comment on region 3 or anywhere near the town of crazywater, I have not hunted there and have spent next to no time there in the last 10 yrs.
Again embarrassed for you!

[Husky7mm]

I did the bang the drum thing last election. My conclusion, all politicians will lie through their teeth and tell ya anything you want to hear to get your vote. Once the election is done, they go about their own agenda. Even if you get some politicians on your side in rural BC, they will be either backbenchers or opposition and they won't be able to effect change regardless of what they tell ya to get your votes.
Well that's shitty, our mla is much different, I hope he gets in again, people around here like him and" he's one of us" ! To bad he was not the leader of the BC conservative party...... Unfortunately the bulk of the libs are on their way out!

[GoatGuy]

I did the bang the drum thing last election. My conclusion, all politicians will lie through their teeth and tell ya anything you want to hear to get your vote. Once the election is done, they go about their own agenda. Even if you get some politicians on your side in rural BC, they will be either backbenchers or opposition and they won't be able to effect change regardless of what they tell ya to get your votes.

Just need more people on your side to get the right person elected. If they're useless than get rid of 'em.

I can tell you there are a few politicians in BC (well more than a few actually) that support wildlife management and predator management. Off the top of my head there are at least 12-15.

A couple 4 I can think of are Ministers.

Just a matter of getting a few more!!!!!!

[springpin]

Not gonna lie here... And not gonna cry over it. I'm ok with a 2 deer bag limit..

[Husky7mm]

Sounds like more BS out of the WK - people invent things constantly and consistently over there, somebody heard it and then it becomes fact. The garbage that comes out of that place is absolutely unparalleled across BC - never heard so much gossip, worse than a group of caddy coastal housewives. It makes the Raincoast enviros seem credible. The Greek's have nothing on the WK.

The only way the elk and mule deer BUCKS ONLY hunting seasons will negatively affect the deer population is if the male:female sex ratio goes below 10:100. With a 6 pt elk season it is STATISTICALLY IMPOSSIBLE. With MD and the current season the likelihood of this happening is slim to none.

For the third time on this thread alone - girls make babies, babies make more deer/elk. You don't shoot girls or babies in the WK, so you've only got two other potential problems. Either they're being eaten, they aren't being fed properly, or both.

Habitat and predation are you problems. There's already all kinds of research out of the WK and P.D. on mule deer, white-tailed deer and cougar population dynamics. Even if you just dealt with habitat I guarantee the MD would take-off in the WK. If you burned the first 500' of timber on the big lakes the deer would absolutely, without a doubt, take-off.

What to do?

Contact your MLA, tell them you want more money invested in fish and wildlife management, you want habitat enhancement and you want predator management. Tell them the deer are disappearing and it isn't because of hunting. Tell them you won't vote for them if they don't support wildlife management and make sure you send all of your letters to your MLA to your local paper.

Start sending hate mail to BC Hydro - tell them they aren't paying enough for sinking all of the winter range along the lakes and they need to start paying for burns and predator management. We're talking tens of millions annually. Send all your letters to your MLA and your local paper.

Start sending letters to the editor whenever there is an anti-hunting, anti-predator management article in the province or vancouver sun.

Tell all your friends to do the same and tell the nimrods over there to shut it when they start mouthing off about some trivial regulation that will achieve absolutely nothing for wildlife.

This is a political fight. We need money and political will - we won't get either of those fighting over hunting regulations that have absolutely nothing to do with the current state of mule deer or elk populations in the WK.

Sorry if this comes off harsh, but I swear I have never seen such an uncoordinated, schizophrenic, uninformed, eat you own, out of touch with reality, bunch in my entire life. Instead of trying to help wildlife all they do is spread rumours and sh*t down everyone who does work's throat. Per capita there are more researchers and subject matter experts on wildlife management than any other place in BC and none of them can stand being within 5' of a 'hunter' because all they want to do is tell them how to save mule deer by change the season 5 days.

I don't get it: Why don't people want to do something that actually benefits wildlife?

Great stuff!!

[Husky7mm]

The thing about "news" is that they are always looking for it. Let's be the loudest squeek this time!

[boxhitch]

...........Sorry if this comes off harsh, but I swear I have never seen such an uncoordinated, schizophrenic, uninformed, eat you own, out of touch with reality, bunch in my entire life. Instead of trying to help wildlife all they do is spread rumours and sh*t down everyone who does work's throat. Per capita there are more researchers and subject matter experts on wildlife management than any other place in BC and none of them can stand being within 5' of a 'hunter' because all they want to do is tell them how to save mule deer by change the season 5 days.

I don't get it: Why don't people want to do something that actually benefits wildlife?Don't hold back , tell us what you really think :)
Attago

[dana]

Dana, why are you so interested in the region 4 anyways? Someone says something about region 4 and within a few hrs you show up and start puffing up your skinny chest and telling everyone what a lazy wanna be hunter they are. I don't see anyone else on here doing that everytime someone in region 3 farts. Am I to believe that a couple homely Dana's came over here in the 80's and hunted with a few locals and you now get to be the authority here, nothing changes? When the last time you stepped foot in region 4? I wouldn't dare comment on region 3 or anywhere near the town of crazywater, I have not hunted there and have spent next to no time there in the last 10 yrs.
Again embarrassed for you!

Husky,
I've told ya before but you refuse to listen. I am sick and tired of so-called trophy hunters that want 'their' big bucks and are willing to slit the throats of the common joe hunter to get it. The Koots seems to be full of them. You are one of them. Your comments already on this thread plus many more say you are dead ass against joe blow hunter coming and hunting 'your' backyard. The call for shorter seasons eary year and 4 point restrictions blah blah blah is just a way to try to kick the common hunter out of hunting all together. You don't seem to get that. For some reason, everyone on the planet must hunt your way or else they must get the F### out of your way. You continue to argue against science and somehow mule deer in the Koots are different than anywhere else. And according to you, so are the wolves. Evolving to be mule deer specialists. LMAO!
As for Brambles and his partner in crime, I called it. I bluffed and they missed it and lost. They are so concerned about the muleys in their area but they will still cut their tags and still want to hunt. They just want to kick out anyone who is hunting for meat is all. And no matter how many times it is explained to that that 4 point or better seasons alone are an epic failure, they still want them. F### the low income family that needs those does and those spikes for the freezer. Come on, really who needs more than 2 deer anyways right???? See the comments that you guys make, make you into the "Wannabe" that you deny you are.

[Brambles]

Keep trying to dig yourself out of that massive hole you've jumped in, trying to validate why your an asshole doesnt excuse the fact that you are!

What did we lose? I dont recall any bluff or fancy footwork on your behalf there happyfeet!

[dana]

Brambles, like I've said many times in this thread, I really could care less if you think I'm an ass or a dick. I'm being harsh on you and your partner in crime so you can actually see the light! You refused to say you would give up hunting for yourself for 5 years because you 'cared' so much for muleys. Instead, lets can the whitey doe hunts and go to strictly 4 point or better. That means 'you' keep hunting, but others who hunt for other reasons such as meat, don't. Hmmm, sounds like a selfish wannabe to me, not someone who truly cares about the plight of muleys in his backyard. Seriously, you have refused to answer the question, how would going to stictly 4 point or better save mule deer. Come on, I want to know. Trying to get older bigger mature bucks so you can kill them doesn't save mule deer now does it??? Cutting the whitey doe season is great in your mind. Again, how does this save muleys? The way I see it, you are worried because you couldn't find a big whitey buck this year and the logical jump is it must be the doe season right? So lets do away with it so Brambles can hunt the way he wants to hunt. Growing big bucks doesn't do anything for growing deer. So if the issue is there is a need for more deer, then you have got your priorities messed up.

[Husky7mm]

It was the "need" for cheap/ free meat that put almost all ungulates on the brink at the turn of the century, I would like to think the worlds advanced some..... You need the meat so bad, stop putting gas in your bucket to go hunting..... Buy some chicken....
Anyways your attacks are growing old, the faceless Internet make folks like you think you have a pair of big nuts.... Go get some class!
To be clear just about everyone tagged out on great bucks in crazy water around the time you did also. You don't have a lot to show for the last 5-6 years either. I can tell your moods changing and your getting frustrated about your own mule deer situation. Such a great hunter like yourself, gotta claim your wolf problem is way worse than everyone else's. Excuses!!! And to top it off you have until the 10 th of December to "get it done" when the last of what's left of the big stubborn bucks get pushed from the hills and give into the rut. Don't here much from you about sept-mid November,,,, what you only got one tactic, wait till late in the rut?
You should be careful time has proven me to more correct than wrong.....

[coach]

I guess it's way to late to get this discussion about closing a whitetail bow season down - BUT: if wolf predation is (next to habitat) the second biggest challenge in managing mulw populations, why have they restricted wt season?? Wouldn't less prey be the best way to control predator populations? Still looking for a logical explanation to the decision to reduce the regional bag limit to 2 when mulw's are closed and bow wt success is so low. How many deer are we saving and for what gain?

[mcrae]

As for Brambles and his partner in crime, I called it. I bluffed and they missed it and lost. They are so concerned about the muleys in their area but they will still cut their tags and still want to hunt. They just want to kick out anyone who is hunting for meat is all. And no matter how many times it is explained to that that 4 point or better seasons alone are an epic failure, they still want them. F### the low income family that needs those does and those spikes for the freezer. Come on, really who needs more than 2 deer anyways right???? See the comments that you guys make, make you into the "Wannabe" that you deny you are.

Dana.

I hunt with both these guys. I am the low income guy that shoots does and spike bucks to feed the family. They don't care what other guys are shooting and are usually the first to say congrats to me when i fill a tag an a "meat buck". They choose to try and shoot big deer. Brambles and his partner in crime see and pass on more mule deer in a season than most of us will see in a lifetime... If they are not seeing the deer and it has them concerned I am inclined to listen. The country they hunt is steep,thick, and tough. Calling them wannabee's just aint true.

I believe in the science I don't feel a 4 point season or a shorter any point season will help mulies recover and they still talk to me LOL. Brambles and his partner in crime know where I stand on this. I shoot for meat but both these guys have taken me into the alpine and told me to giver er and they would help me pack it out. I aint no trophy hunter believe me...

I just don't think the picture your painting of Brambles and his Partner in crime is a correct one. Passionate about mulw deer yes but NIMBY or anti Joe hunter they are not...

We have an issue in the W.Koots there is no doubt. I just want to remind guys to get out in the spring and fill a couple of bear tags as well. Black bears are very over looked IMO when it comes to predation on deer and elk.

[dana]

Husky,
I'm a muley nut. So when the topic of mule deer comes up, I don't care if it is the East Koots or Utah or the AZ Strip, I'm in on the conversation.

Funny how I'm faceless internet. My name is infact Steve Dana and I live in Birch Island BC and I have never ever hid my face in all the pics I've posted over the years. Yet, I know nothing of who you are and you attack everything I say. I have no excuses when it comes to hunting. And as for the last 5-6 years, hmmm, wasn't it just a couple years ago we hammered the biggest typical I've ever seen die? Maybe that wasn't me in those pics? :) And have you not seen some of my alpine pics? Late season rut is a fun hunt, but so is early season. This year ain't over. No excuses. It's been tuff but I've been having a blast. My daughter got her first muley buck. My son got his first whitey buck and a nice sized bear. I got a whitey doe and a whitey buck and an immature moose. Freezer is full. And yup, we'll have it pretty much empty by the time next season rolls around. Thus far I haven't seen the muley I want to pull the pin on. Putting all my eggs in one basket might mean I eat my tag, doesn't bother me, cause I've had a great time searching for that elusive monster this year.

[ElectricDyck]

It was said earlier it was to correct a typo?

[ElectricDyck]

Husky,
I'm a muley nut. So when the topic of mule deer comes up, I don't care if it is the East Koots or Utah or the AZ Strip, I'm in on the conversation.

Funny how I'm faceless internet. My name is infact Steve Dana and I live in Birch Island BC and I have never ever hid my face in all the pics I've posted over the years. Yet, I know nothing of who you are and you attack everything I say. I have no excuses when it comes to hunting. And as for the last 5-6 years, hmmm, wasn't it just a couple years ago we hammered the biggest typical I've ever seen die? Maybe that wasn't me in those pics? :) And have you not seen some of my alpine pics? Late season rut is a fun hunt, but so is early season. This year ain't over. No excuses. It's been tuff but I've been having a blast. My daughter got her first muley buck. My son got his first whitey buck and a nice sized bear. I got a whitey doe and a whitey buck and an immature moose. Freezer is full. And yup, we'll have it pretty much empty by the time next season rolls around. Thus far I haven't seen the muley I want to pull the pin on. Putting all my eggs in one basket might mean I eat my tag, doesn't bother me, cause I've had a great time searching for that elusive monster this year.

Relax man, you have my respect, you're a dedicated family man and you shot some awesome deer, we all have a common passion...

[dana]

Dana.

I hunt with both these guys. I am the low income guy that shoots does and spike bucks to feed the family. They don't care what other guys are shooting and are usually the first to say congrats to me when i fill a tag an a "meat buck". They choose to try and shoot big deer. Brambles and his partner in crime see and pass on more mule deer in a season than most of us will see in a lifetime... If they are not seeing the deer and it has them concerned I am inclined to listen. The country they hunt is steep,thick, and tough. Calling them wannabee's just aint true.

I believe in the science I don't feel a 4 point season or a shorter any point season will help mulies recover and they still talk to me LOL. Brambles and his partner in crime know where I stand on this. I shoot for meat but both these guys have taken me into the alpine and told me to giver er and they would help me pack it out. I aint no trophy hunter believe me...

I just don't think the picture your painting of Brambles and his Partner in crime is a correct one. Passionate about mulw deer yes but NIMBY or anti Joe hunter they are not...

We have an issue in the W.Koots there is no doubt. I just want to remind guys to get out in the spring and fill a couple of bear tags as well. Black bears are very over looked IMO when it comes to predation on deer and elk.

Mcrea,
That's good to know. I am painting them with the same brush I paint Husky with. That is because they are using the exact same lame ideas to improve mule deer numbers. Maybe if they both read the Mulw deer Link that was posted up in it's entirety, they would see how I could jump to the conclusions that they are the same as many of the other Region 4 wannabes out there.

[dana]

Relax man, you have my respect, you're a dedicated family man and you shot some awesome deer, we all have a common passion...

I am relaxed. Creating exitement on a site that has been pretty boring as of late is all. It'll be a good winter now that Brambles will be stiring it up everytime he sees me post. :)

[Gateholio]

You guys want to continue the discussion without getting all personal with each other, I'll leave the thread open. Keep up the personal shit and it will get locked.

[one-shot-wonder]

I was just going to say this thread needs refocus......:???:
The only 2 things we should be discussing moving forward are:
Habitat enhancement - More than a few ways to skin this cat....club projects, initiate talks with corporate gigs, beat on your MLA's door, take up smoking!
Predator control - It has been mentioned more than a few times on this thread alone, EVERYBODY concerned about MD no matter where in province needs to be beating on their MLA's door.

[The Dude]

I wonder why it's OK to hammer the Moose in some MU's in order to deny Wolves the meat to carry them through winter, but not OK to hammer the Whitetails to help the Mulw Deer?
You'd think they'd be all for it (Bios).

[coach]

I was just going to say this thread needs refocus......:???:
The only 2 things we should be discussing moving forward are:
Habitat enhancement - More than a few ways to skin this cat....club projects, initiate talks with corporate gigs, beat on your MLA's door, take up smoking!
Predator control - It has been mentioned more than a few times on this thread alone, EVERYBODY concerned about MD no matter where in province needs to be beating on their MLA's door.

Agreed. Why has wt bow season been restricted? Rationale and logic?

[GoatGuy]

I wonder why it's OK to hammer the Moose in some MU's in order to deny Wolves the meat to carry them through winter, but not OK to hammer the Whitetails to help the Mulw Deer?
You'd think they'd be all for it (Bios).
Mule deer are not a species at risk, caribou are!

[Brambles]

You Said


If the plight of the mule deer is so bad as some are claiming, would they support a complete moratorium on mule deer hunting in the Koots for the next 5 years????

Then I said


If the government made a concious effort to enchance mule deer winter range and put togeter a viable plan for the enhancement if mule deer populations I would support a season closure.

And this


I enjoy hunting mule deer and i have a goal to get a monster for my wall, it would take a good gameplan which would include habitat enhancement to get me to believe that the plan is gonna be worth the sacrifice!

And what I mean by that is, if the govt said "we are status quo but instituting a 5 year moratorium on mule deer hunting in the WK" I would say.....kiss my ass

But if they came to us and said, " Hey guys look, we are gonna hit these issues hard, work on mule deer habitat and start seriously knocking down the wolf populations, but were also gonna put a 5 year moratorium on mule deer to give them a chance to bounce back" I'd say Hell yah, I'm with this guy!!!


Then you said again


Yup I am. Just sick and tired of the Wannabes pushing their agendas. If the mule deer numbers are truly bad in the WK, I would strongly support a 5 year moritorium for the sake of conservation. But I will not support, wannabe agendas who just are trying to keep 'out-of-towners' out of their neck of the woods. If you are not willing to eat your own tags for 5 years for the sake of conservation, then the situation can't be that bad can it?

And Steel Ram said


I'd rather them error on the side of conservation. Shut MD down for 5 years, at least during the rut or late season.

And in Reply to those comments, Goat Guy said


After 5 years there will be no more mule deer.

The problems in the west Kootenay and the east Kootenay in relation to mule deer are not related to hunting.

this is like putting a band-aid on your forehead when you're having a massive heart attack. "It can't hurt, right?"


And then again you say



As for Brambles and his partner in crime, I called it. I bluffed and they missed it and lost. They are so concerned about the muleys in their area but they will still cut their tags and still want to hunt. They just want to kick out anyone who is hunting for meat is all.




i asked for clarification because of your cryptic jelvis like flare on your last comment


Keep trying to dig yourself out of that massive hole you've jumped in, trying to validate why your an asshole doesnt excuse the fact that you are!

What did we lose? I dont recall any bluff or fancy footwork on your behalf there happyfeet!

And because you refuse to listen to anyone else, you bring it up again.....I already said I would...


Brambles, like I've said many times in this thread, I really could care less if you think I'm an ass or a dick. I'm being harsh on you and your partner in crime so you can actually see the light! You refused to say you would give up hunting for yourself for 5 years because you 'cared' so much for muleys. Instead, lets can the whitey doe hunts and go to strictly 4 point or better. That means 'you' keep hunting, but others who hunt for other reasons such as meat, don't. Hmmm, sounds like a selfish wannabe to me, not someone who truly cares about the plight of muleys in his backyard. Seriously, you have refused to answer the question, how would going to stictly 4 point or better save mule deer. Come on, I want to know. Trying to get older bigger mature bucks so you can kill them doesn't save mule deer now does it??? Cutting the whitey doe season is great in your mind. Again, how does this save muleys? The way I see it, you are worried because you couldn't find a big whitey buck this year and the logical jump is it must be the doe season right? So lets do away with it so Brambles can hunt the way he wants to hunt. Growing big bucks doesn't do anything for growing deer. So if the issue is there is a need for more deer, then you have got your priorities messed up.


Your making an apes ass of yourself because you don't take the time to read what others have to say, your sooo eager to jump on someones back that your eye's glaze over and just start banging away on the keyboard.
I have NO problems guys shooting deer for meat, if we don't kill an elk or moose then i'd be doing the same thing, but we are lucky and don't need to shoot deer, so unless I see one that peeks my interest I let them walk, I let lots walk this year. And I'll say it again, if a good plan was brought forth and the end result was a 5 year moratorium on mule deer then I'd say yes, but only if the issues at hand regarding predation and habitate are addressed. Like Goat said, if you don't deal with the issues at hand then your not gonna have anymore deer at the end of 5 years then you did before, and I agree with him on that.

[Brambles]

Agreed. Why has wt bow season been restricted? Rationale and logic?

The whitetail bow season has remained unchanged, its the bag limit that has changed, so unless you've already shot 2 deer in Region 4 then your still hunting come archery season...

[reach]

It was said earlier it was to correct a typo?
That does appear to be the case. From the Wildlife Act Hunting Regulation Schedule 4 (http://www.bclaws.ca/EPLibraries/bclaws_new/document/ID/freeside/190_84_05):


Part 3 — Bag Limits and Possession Limits

Deer
1 (1) The aggregate bag limit for deer in Region 4 is two.



That was apparently in effect as of April 2012. So the synopsis was wrong from the start. And still is wrong on page 17 - they only corrected half of it.

[Islandeer]

Habitat and predation. Old song, and more on the habitat. If more of those thick hills got fried over the burning season,we all know mulies would rebound in 4 yrs in those areas.

I say take away Rocksteady's hose fer a couple of sesons.... except for interface of course.

[wicket]

holy smokes name calling reference to beat downs and perhaps drownings in a sac, swearing........I get that this is an emotional subject but come on! I have read every word in this thread and the facts have been lost in the crap. This is behind the school monkey bar stuff and I think its very embarassing and paints all outdoorsman the stereotypical hicks most non sportsman believe we are. disgusting

[rides bike to work]

I hunted canal flats area this year for ten days in early October we saw 10-20 white tail does every day and only saw three mule deer the whole my dad who hunted there his whole life could not belive it he has shot alot of mulies in the lower lands but now it's all whities

One good thing we did see was some large burns that were set for habitat enhancement.

I know where I'm hunting over the next few years

[Husky7mm]

holy smokes name calling reference to beat downs and perhaps drownings in a sac, swearing........I get that this is an emotional subject but come on! I have read every word in this thread and the facts have been lost in the crap. This is behind the school monkey bar stuff and I think its very embarassing and paints all outdoorsman the stereotypical hicks most non sportsman believe we are. disgusting
Oh lighten up..... This hunting forum is for hunters in general and they all have different personalities, some are hicks. There may be a few none sportsman on here lurking but I am sure it wont be in the province tomorrow. You read every word you must have be captivated. Dana dishes it out and gets it back.... but if I saw him stuck in the ditch I would pull him out, I might rough him up first though ....lol

[wicket]

Oh lighten up..... This hunting forum is for hunters in general and they all have different personalities, some are hicks. There may be a few none sportsman on here lurking but I am sure it wont be in the province tomorrow. You read every word you must have be captivated. Dana dishes it out and gets it back.... but if I saw him stuck in the ditch I would pull him out, I might rough him up first though ....lol

you are sooooo right. I will lighten up and leave you to it. By the way i do read all posts in the threads on this forum and your sarcasm is duely noted.

[Sofa King]

I can't see how a quick reg change like that can fly. It would take a lot of effort to farely inform those that are still going by the previous regs.


the onus is on the individual hunter/fisher to be aware of the current regulations.
they change the regs overnight during the salmon season, and it's up to the fisher to be informed.

i agree, it would have been so much easier and made way more sense to wait until the complete off-season.
i guess they don't really pay attention to the bow-season, or just don't care.

[eastkoot]

Just a quick reminder that we decreased our MD populations by culling deer but no one complained when the deer cull of 150 here, 200 there, another 150 etc. occurred. Most were glad to see them go. Deer adapt to conditions and habitat and soon learn where their next meal comes from and where they are safe from preditors. BUT, they are part of the major population in the area and I feel benefit the wellbeing of the total population. Genetics from "town" deer enhance urban and area deer too..

[hunter1947]

I myself would think that if a hunting party was in the bush camping and they can prove that they where in the bush when the change took place they where there for the last few days of rifle season ending and then bow season started that they would hunt this region for bow as well ,,, management changed the bag limit for deer in a region from 3 to 2 that they where hunting in..

Then the hunting party came out of the bush with a couple deer a CO stopped them and on there tags they got 3 deer in this region that was allowed 3 on the 2012 regs,,I myself would think that the CO would tell them of the change and say to them have a nice day ,,,to me this is a grey area and depending on how the CO felt up to warning them or charging them would be a fine line ,,myself I would think that the co would not fine the hunters just tell them of the change....

[MattB]

Steve, gonna be honest with you here. What's with calling other hunters wannabes? You don't know these guys personally or how they hunt. There's a ton of hunters in this province that hunt as hard or harder than you do. You don't talk to people like this in person; in fact you act in a much more respectable manner and that is why you have the friends that you do have! Numerous people, including myself, and all of which know you have been asked if you are really an a$$hole...and we get asked these questions because of threads like this and your attitude on the internet. I know you aren't this type of person when dealing with you face to face so why be this way on the internet? It isn't just this thread either; a person could pull up numerous threads where you put people down or talk down to them. Yes, I know some of it is in response to things they wrote, but still it isn't necessary.
Its time to start working as a group and figure out ways to enhance mule deer populations through acts such as winter habitat enhancement projects and to do this we need the support of a large group of people and people willing to volunteer time on weekends in order to complete such projects. IMO we need to push government into doing some small scale controlled burns on critical mule deer winter range to boost the productivity of these sites. Past fire suppression has led to tree encroachment on some winter and spring ranges and in order to provide better habitat for wildlife we should consider burning these sites. Maybe its time to get a group of professionals together and start an ungulate habitat enhancement group where a group of people can identify areas and come up with means of enhancing the habitat for ungulates within these ranges. We have plenty of RPBios on this site; is any of this feasible?

[GoatGuy]

Steve, gonna be honest with you here. What's with calling other hunters wannabes? You don't know these guys personally or how they hunt. There's a ton of hunters in this province that hunt as hard or harder than you do. You don't talk to people like this in person; in fact you act in a much more respectable manner and that is why you have the friends that you do have! Numerous people, including myself, and all of which know you have been asked if you are really an a$$hole...and we get asked these questions because of threads like this and your attitude on the internet. I know you aren't this type of person when dealing with you face to face so why be this way on the internet? It isn't just this thread either; a person could pull up numerous threads where you put people down or talk down to them. Yes, I know some of it is in response to things they wrote, but still it isn't necessary.
Its time to start working as a group and figure out ways to enhance mule deer populations through acts such as winter habitat enhancement projects and to do this we need the support of a large group of people and people willing to volunteer time on weekends in order to complete such projects. IMO we need to push government into doing some small scale controlled burns on critical mule deer winter range to boost the productivity of these sites. Past fire suppression has led to tree encroachment on some winter and spring ranges and in order to provide better habitat for wildlife we should consider burning these sites. Maybe its time to get a group of professionals together and start an ungulate habitat enhancement group where a group of people can identify areas and come up with means of enhancing the habitat for ungulates within these ranges. We have plenty of RPBios on this site; is any of this feasible?

Well said, burns for mule deer need to be at least 100km2 to have any effect.

People's frustration just needs to be pointed in the right direction on this stuff.

[ThinAir]

I agree, the gov needs to let some fires burn.... and extinguish some wolves!
It's bass awkward right now.

It just seems like it's an impossibility...we hunters are a small squabbling few

[cruiser]

GG:
How feasible is it to find many low elevation, south face slopes over 100 sq km, that aren't on private land or productive timber areas to enhance around the big lakes? Could a grassroots group organize such a thing (say through a rod and gun club) and get it funded plus some QEP support, or is this more a matter of public pressure for govmnt initiatives? I see times up to apply for funding for 2013 through BCHydro, so hopefully there were some ungulate habitat proposals submitted.

Sad reading some of the wolf/moose/caribou papers that were published even a couple years ago, seems even those following the packs and watching the caribou didn't quite see the current situation coming.

[Husky7mm]

I think the idea of some big burns around the man made lakes is a fabulous idea. Likely winter range loss was low on the list when these resoviours were created.... I could really see it happening. It's a great make work project and also appears very "green"! genius!

[rocksteady]

Habitat and predation. Old song, and more on the habitat. If more of those thick hills got fried over the burning season,we all know mulies would rebound in 4 yrs in those areas.

I say take away Rocksteady's hose fer a couple of sesons.... except for interface of course.

First off, don't touch my "hose"... that is just not right... Secondly, I was personally involved in over 1200 has of habitat resoration prescribed fire this spring/fall...

Not ALL fire is good, forest fires at the wrong time of the year can set back habitat WAY TOO MUCH.... Light, rejuvenating fire is good... Hard core, heavy impact fire can sterilize the site for a number of years...

Don't get me wrong, if one of the best options to fight fire is to light more fire, to help contain it... I am one of the first one there with torches.... in 2011, in Ft. Mac, I was doing anywhere from 1000 to 15000 has per day, in order to assist in trying to contain the Richardson fire... Igntion scared, I am not.... But we digress...

Generally speaking to all members, we are all concerned about the deer populations etc, what are you personally doing about it????

Myself... Have not bought a muley tag in over 5 years and will not. (Not as good eating as whiteys (IMHO) and the population is not that strong.
I actively hunt coyotes every winter...
I run with a buddy hunting cougars....
In these travels if we see a wolf, I will not hesitate to lay down some cover fire at them...

[Husky7mm]

Some folks want to bonk every fish they catch. Others want a quaility reliable fishery. A balance has to be met. While many areas have appreantly decent whitetail populations many don't anymore . Most of my decent spots are just about void of deer and they were not that way even 3 yrs ago.

[Brambles]

Steve, gonna be honest with you here. What's with calling other hunters wannabes? You don't know these guys personally or how they hunt. There's a ton of hunters in this province that hunt as hard or harder than you do. You don't talk to people like this in person; in fact you act in a much more respectable manner and that is why you have the friends that you do have! Numerous people, including myself, and all of which know you have been asked if you are really an a$$hole...and we get asked these questions because of threads like this and your attitude on the internet. I know you aren't this type of person when dealing with you face to face so why be this way on the internet? It isn't just this thread either; a person could pull up numerous threads where you put people down or talk down to them. Yes, I know some of it is in response to things they wrote, but still it isn't necessary.
Its time to start working as a group and figure out ways to enhance mule deer populations through acts such as winter habitat enhancement projects and to do this we need the support of a large group of people and people willing to volunteer time on weekends in order to complete such projects. IMO we need to push government into doing some small scale controlled burns on critical mule deer winter range to boost the productivity of these sites. Past fire suppression has led to tree encroachment on some winter and spring ranges and in order to provide better habitat for wildlife we should consider burning these sites. Maybe its time to get a group of professionals together and start an ungulate habitat enhancement group where a group of people can identify areas and come up with means of enhancing the habitat for ungulates within these ranges. We have plenty of RPBios on this site; is any of this feasible?



I gotta admit Matt, it takes a big man to stand up and set his friends straight. That was pretty classy if you ask me.

[The Hermit]

What I find interesting, besides some of the strategies for MD management, is that some of the guys are reporting huge deceases in either or both WT and MD populations, while others report seeing lots of both in the same regions. Why?

Seems to me that the points everyone agrees on are that: the MOE really needs to step up with more frequent counts, the need for a planned and focused increase in habitat restoration, and a serious predator cull, and much greater personal effort on the conservation front by all concerned. What about insisting on the first nations reporting their annual harvest and joining in the conservation efforts?

Personally gotta believe that the WT are in no danger and that an increased harvest could only help the MD especially in wintering areas. If memory serves me well, at the BCWF AGM last year a regional bio presented a paper outlining the results of a study saying that wolf predation didn't have a huge impact on MD and argued the need for habitat restoration above all else. (GoatGuy moderated that talk - have I got that straight Jessie or is my oltimers showing?

[Brambles]

Habitat and predation are you problems. There's already all kinds of research out of the WK and P.D. on mule deer, white-tailed deer and cougar population dynamics. Even if you just dealt with habitat I guarantee the MD would take-off in the WK. If you burned the first 500' of timber on the big lakes the deer would absolutely, without a doubt, take-off.




Well said, burns for mule deer need to be at least 100km2 to have any effect.

People's frustration just needs to be pointed in the right direction on this stuff.


Unless your suggesting the burn be 600+ km's long I"m a little confused.

100 square Kilometers is a mother huge burn.

[OutWest]

Unless your suggesting the burn be 200+ km's long I"m a little confused.

100 square Kilometers is a mother huge burn.

That's only a 10x10 km patch.

[Brambles]

Only???? How many 100 km2 habitat burns have you seen in the south?

[MattB]

OK Mtn park was 250km2 if my math is correct. Barriere/Mclure fire would be similar. Not sure how big the Niskonlith/McGillvary fire was. I dont know how big the fire on the arrow lakes (edgewood) was but it was likely big enough to provide a fair chunk of habitat. What we need to do is select areas that are currently providing critical winter range habitat for a large number of deer and figure out a way of completing a low intensity controlled burn on these sites. We would need to utilize fire in a way in which we can ensure we maintain or enhance values for wintering deer while still maintaining values for other species...it wouldnt be an easy task and would take alot of thought and public (including FNs) input in order to complete it and keep people happy.

[MattB]

A lot of varying values ranging from timber-fish-wildlife-water-people would have to be considered. It would be good if we could get timber harvesting licensees on board; could get them to start aiming to provide habitat when harvesting within ungulate winter range areas through broadcast burning (may be a difficult task as there is a lot of liability involved with any burning these days).

[Rattler]

Steve, gonna be honest with you here. What's with calling other hunters wannabes? You don't know these guys personally or how they hunt. There's a ton of hunters in this province that hunt as hard or harder than you do. You don't talk to people like this in person; in fact you act in a much more respectable manner and that is why you have the friends that you do have! Numerous people, including myself, and all of which know you have been asked if you are really an a$$hole...and we get asked these questions because of threads like this and your attitude on the internet. I know you aren't this type of person when dealing with you face to face so why be this way on the internet? It isn't just this thread either; a person could pull up numerous threads where you put people down or talk down to them. Yes, I know some of it is in response to things they wrote, but still it isn't necessary.
Its time to start working as a group and figure out ways to enhance mule deer populations through acts such as winter habitat enhancement projects and to do this we need the support of a large group of people and people willing to volunteer time on weekends in order to complete such projects. IMO we need to push government into doing some small scale controlled burns on critical mule deer winter range to boost the productivity of these sites. Past fire suppression has led to tree encroachment on some winter and spring ranges and in order to provide better habitat for wildlife we should consider burning these sites. Maybe its time to get a group of professionals together and start an ungulate habitat enhancement group where a group of people can identify areas and come up with means of enhancing the habitat for ungulates within these ranges. We have plenty of RPBios on this site; is any of this feasible?

Well said MattB. I have never met Steve, but his internet attitude leaves something to be desired and that is putting it mildly.

I am a big supporter of prescribed burns and have been responsible for multiple burns on BCTS blocks here in the WK. I continue to promote these burns, especially on winter ranges because I know how important they are for ungulates.

We need to put aside our differences and come together as a team for the greater good of wildlife management, in particular Mule Deer. I work closely with our local Wildfire Management Branch and will advocate they burn more on Mule Deer Winter range.

[OutWest]

Only???? How many 100 km2 habitat burns have you seen in the south?

Not many because we've become too efficient at putting them out.

All I was getting at was in the big picture, a 10x10km patch is not actually that large. Getting to that stage is another thing.

[Rattler]

A lot of varying values ranging from timber-fish-wildlife-water-people would have to be considered. It would be good if we could get timber harvesting licensees on board; could get them to start aiming to provide habitat when harvesting within ungulate winter range areas through broadcast burning (may be a difficult task as there is a lot of liability involved with any burning these days).

I am responsible for timber development on many winter ranges here in the WK. Unfortunately many winter range areas have reached their maximum clear cut area. We have to manage for Snow Interception Cover (SIC) and each winter range area has a maximum target. SIC basically means larger mature trees with heavy canopy closure to provide snow interception. With that said we are developing some winter range areas here in the WK and as I indicated earlier, we try to broadcast burn, especially on cable blocks. Broadcast burning isn't cheap and carries a lot of liability as you have stated. Unfortunately most of the licensees in the WK don't burn because of the high costs and liability.

I would also like to add most licensees must brush on blocks located on low elevation winter range areas. Brushing may have to occur multiple times before the block can be considered Free Growing. Each of these brushing entries knocks down the brush, Ceanothus in particular and this greatly improves forage for ungulates because it makes it reachable for deer. If Ceanothus is allowed to grow for too long it will no longer be within reach for the deer.

[Rattler]

That's only a 10x10 km patch.

That is a huge burn!!! The amount of work trying to pull off a 170ha ecosystem burn was simply unbelievable and took a couple of years, but did include some logging. Not saying it isn't possible, but it will take a huge coordinated effort.

[rocksteady]

Rattler, I feel your pain....

Burning is the RIGHT thing to do but:

a) politically incorrect in some areas.
b) costly
c) takes a definnite skill set to pull it off.
d) benefits wildlife, but oh the poor rancher/x-mas tree permit holder/licensee/dickie bird club/ x-country ski trail group yada yada yada

Until there is ONE body deciding on the appropraite management of one specific piece of land, it will be a cluster and nothing will get done.... I see thousands of has of prime habitat that needs a nice mellow rejuvenating burn, but get shot down cause of some rinky-dinky "other user" or just the all out lack of fundng + political support of land managers to do the right thing....

Best thing about beating your head against a concrete wall..............................Feels a lot better when you stop!!!

[MattB]

I am responsible for timber development on many winter ranges here in the WK. Unfortunately many winter range areas have reached their maximum clear cut area. We have to manage for Snow Interception Cover (SIC) and each winter range area has a maximum target. SIC basically means larger mature trees with heavy canopy closure to provide snow interception. With that said we are developing some winter range areas here in the WK and as I indicated earlier, we try to broadcast burn, especially on cable blocks. Broadcast burning isn't cheap and carries a lot of liability as you have stated. Unfortunately most of the licensees in the WK don't burn because of the high costs and liability.

I would also like to add most licensees must brush on blocks located on low elevation winter range areas. Brushing may have to occur multiple times before the block can be considered Free Growing. Each of these brushing entries knocks down the brush, Ceanothus in particular and this greatly improves forage for ungulates because it makes it reachable for deer. If Ceanothus is allowed to grow for too long it will no longer be within reach for the deer.
Interesting comments on the Ceanothus, the main species that grows around here never really gets taller than 2 feet or so. I've seen the species that you are referring to when i did some silvi surveys in the west koots a couple years ago. I thought that even though it was taller that the snow would press it down and deer would still be able to browse the leaves. The WK looks to be ideal mule deer habitat and it really surprised me to see few deer and not a lot of sign when i was down there working. If we could get some big burns in areas that harbor a large number of deer over the winter months i think things could turn around pretty quickly in that country!
In some areas where mule deer habitat overlaps with dead pine types (or types that contain dead pine) we have the potential for some large fires to occur in the next few years, and this is something i think that will happen. All its going to take is one small fire to enter a dead pine type and we have the potential for some big fires to occur.

[GoatGuy]

To be clear burning on winter range is not always the preferred choice in areas with high snowfall (interception) or extremely cold temperatures (thermal). There's a pile of issues associated with habitat selection, ingrowth etc.

The political will is changing as are goals in the Forest Service in terms of reducing areas where the fire hazard is high and much more of an appetite for the 'let burn' concept as well as ER work in general. The trick is political and politicians need to be pressed. They control policy and funding, the two things we need.

Here's a brief presentation by Gerry Kuzyk, Provincial Ungulate Specialist. Gerry has been there done that when it comes to deer, wolves (wolf control), caribou etc.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jejydhm8hydfufl/Gerry%20Kuzyk_Mule%20Deer%20BCWF%20-%20April%2026%202012.pdf

It won't help a pile as it is a presentation but there is some info there.

[Brambles]

OK Mtn park was 250km2 if my math is correct. Barriere/Mclure fire would be similar. Not sure how big the Niskonlith/McGillvary fire was. I dont know how big the fire on the arrow lakes (edgewood) was but it was likely big enough to provide a fair chunk of habitat. What we need to do is select areas that are currently providing critical winter range habitat for a large number of deer and figure out a way of completing a low intensity controlled burn on these sites. We would need to utilize fire in a way in which we can ensure we maintain or enhance values for wintering deer while still maintaining values for other species...it wouldnt be an easy task and would take alot of thought and public (including FNs) input in order to complete it and keep people happy.

I'm talking planned habitat burns, not forest fires. We can all hope for more forest fires that don't endanger the interface, unfortunatly there is always gonna be some backwoods community that is gonna be threatened by fire. The foresty is gonna throw a ton of money at putting it out. The area's that are non interface and they let burn a little longer will likely NOT be in winter range.

[Islandeer]

First off, don't touch my "hose"... that is just not right... Secondly, I was personally involved in over 1200 has of habitat resoration prescribed fire this spring/fall...

Not ALL fire is good, forest fires at the wrong time of the year can set back habitat WAY TOO MUCH.... Light, rejuvenating fire is good... Hard core, heavy impact fire can sterilize the site for a number of years...

Don't get me wrong, if one of the best options to fight fire is to light more fire, to help contain it... I am one of the first one there with torches.... in 2011, in Ft. Mac, I was doing anywhere from 1000 to 15000 has per day, in order to assist in trying to contain the Richardson fire... Igntion scared, I am not.... But we digress...

Generally speaking to all members, we are all concerned about the deer populations etc, what are you personally doing about it????

Myself... Have not bought a muley tag in over 5 years and will not. (Not as good eating as whiteys (IMHO) and the population is not that strong.
I actively hunt coyotes every winter...
I run with a buddy hunting cougars....
In these travels if we see a wolf, I will not hesitate to lay down some cover fire at them...

Lol,the hose comment was of the forestry kind as in 1 inch or 1.5, whichever!!!!
what you do is awsome,your message which I echo along with many other s on HBC is clearly taking off the gloves and getting together collectively for positive change.

I would support and join any group as suggested that was committed to improving muledeer habitat. With the proffesional connections and the passionate grassroot local energy great things could happen. I want change and feel I have done nothing to effect any in the EK,so count me in from here on the island. I am sure I am not the only out of towner who feels this way.

[GoatGuy]

I'm talking planned habitat burns, not forest fires. We can all hope for more forest fires that don't endanger the interface, unfortunatly there is always gonna be some backwoods community that is gonna be threatened by fire. The foresty is gonna throw a ton of money at putting it out. The area's that are non interface and they let burn a little longer will likely NOT be in winter range.

It isn't always about winter range - things do get complicated once you dive into different ecosystems. Also, you don't necessarily have to burn it all at once. Lots of ER plans that are staged over 3-5 years.

In any case, we're digging way too far into the details here - the message is: Mule deer are in decline and we need habitat enhancement and predator control.

It's natural for human being's to want to solve the problems down to the finest detail. The best way people can help is to push their MLAs and MPs for that matter.

[Seeadler]

I haven't read every page, but have read most. My take is that the MD decline is death by a thousand cuts and one of the big cuts is Elk. In my MD hunting grounds I am seeing around 10% of the number of MD (does included) that I was seeing 8-10 years ago. Now for all I know, the deer could all be just over the next ridge, but what I do know is that now I am seeing lots of Elk sign (and Elk too) where I used to see MD. They, the Elk, are being pushed there by the antlerless seasons in Zone X. Elk aren't stupid, they largely abandon Zone X in August and they don't just live on air and sunshine.

[steel_ram]

the message is: Mule deer are in decline and we need habitat enhancement and predator control.

“In conclusion, benefits of predator removal appear to be marginal and short term in
southeastern Idaho and likely will not appreciably change long-term dynamics of mule
deer populations in the intermountain west.”

???

[hunter1947]

My opinion on less mule deer in some regions if you have an overabundance of wolfs and cougars in an area they the wolf will target the fawns as for the adults it is a no brainier management opening up for any mule deer buck in some regions that where already at low numbers did not help ether so bottom line you have no recruitments to grow up you also have to add winter kill to fawns as for the adult deer ,,don't forget that mule deer don't recover as well as WT deer do when there numbers are at a low ..

I drive many miles looking for winter range mule deer in winter months in different regions in 4 I shed hunt in the spring in mule deer winter range for 4 months in different regions in 4 and see very few mule deer you members show me some pictures of big number of mule deer wintering in low land wintering grounds because I can't find any big numbers in 5 different regions I look for them at maybe I am blind ????.

The only place I can say where I did see a good number of mule deer herd was the Wigwam flats behind a locked gate road closure near Elko,,, went shed hunting there 2 years ago in March there where around 70 mule deer in the herd.

I do see big numbers of WT deer and elk in wintering grounds ,,I myself will not believe that habitat is the problem for the reduction of mule deer population ,,this is my thoughts on mule deer declining and I am sticking with it...

[Kirby]

I do see big numbers of WT deer and elk in wintering grounds ,,I myself will not believe that habitat is the problem for the reduction of mule deer population ,,this is my thoughts on mule deer declining and I am sticking with it...

I offered to take you out and show you winter range, I offered to show you locations that habitat change has reduced carrying capacity.

Sad to see your mind is still closed to learning and bettering yourself as a conservationist and hunter.

[hunter1947]

I offered to take you out and show you winter range, I offered to show you locations that habitat change has reduced carrying capacity.

Sad to see your mind is still closed to learning and bettering yourself as a conservationist and hunter.

I guess you did not read my post as I mentioned not only winter range but 80% of my post was about other things why the mule deer are t low numbers ,,read again..

[hunter1947]

I offered to take you out and show you winter range, I offered to show you locations that habitat change has reduced carrying capacity.

Sad to see your mind is still closed to learning and bettering yourself as a conservationist and hunter.


Science is not always right if science is so right then why is there not the population of mule deer in greater numbers here in the trench,,goes show that they have failed ,,ether that or management has not did there job properly :mrgreen: I am not going to continue auguring my point its my opinion and this I will stick to :)..

[sawmill]

All I know is that Mulies took a huge hit winter `98 and never bounced back.Except in town.Elk and whities bounced back huge everywhere.I haven`t bought a Mulie tag in 7 years.I still see them but don`t hunt them anymore,too few to mess with.

[6616]

Well I remember'd I got an email that I didn't have time to read regarding this issue so I set a reminder to get it done.

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/public-consultation/grey-wolf/

Gonna read it and do my comments tomorrow

Not sure if its been posted up on HBC yet but I"m gonna make a post too get guys to support wolf management

Everyone, don't forget the advertised deadline for comments is Dec 5th - tomorrow...!

[GoatGuy]

The Idaho study found rabbits and forage quality to be contributing factors when it came to mortality. It's not something you can wrap in a box and put the lid on. The only study where predator reduction was shown to positively benefit deer work was Vancouver Island. Unfortunately there is nothing on wolf reduction, it's all cougar and coyote stuff out of the US for mule deer to date. Until a couple years ago those guys never had to deal with wolves, and for the most part we didn't either in southern BC. Most of the wolf stuff that has demonstrated to work has been on wolf-moose and some on caribou as well.

In the WK we know cougar predation has always been a big issue when it comes to mule deer. Robinson blamed it indirectly on the wt deer response after the bad winter of 97. WT's rebounded so high they kept cougar numbers elevated and mule deer never had a chance to 'bounce back'. He indicated reducing wt's would be the best way to help mule deer although that advice fell on deaf ears in the WK.

Edit: This is for Steel_Ram. The software on this site has been extremely finicky the past couple months, can't quote and reply for some reason.