Can you hunt with super hard cast lead bullets in BC?

[pazz0]

**EDIT Dec 1, 2012**
I spoke to the CO and yes, it is legal to hunt with hard cast lead bullets.



Does "non-expanding" refer to hard-cast lead? I'm specifically inquiring about .44 MAG bullets.

Synopsis says this:
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb4/mezz0italiano/Synopsis.jpg



*edit* - Here is the bullet in question:
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb4/mezz0italiano/330grHammerhead-1.jpg

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb4/mezz0italiano/330grcomparison.jpg

[burger]

If hard cast lead expands then no

[BiG Boar]

If hard cast lead expands then no then yes????

[r106]

If hard cast lead expands then no


??? I think you have it backwards.

The " non expanding bullets" is more towards FMJ or steal core. Hard cast lead at the right speed would be great.

[r106]

I think the question should be if soft lead bullets would be classified as exploding bullets

[Johnny G1]

If the question was asked rite, yes you can hunt with cast bullet's, they will expand and are just as deadly as any copper jacket, shot lots of them in a 308 and yes they kill, and they are legal to use.

[Sofa King]

what are you using "super-hard cast" bullets to hunt?

[pazz0]

what are you using "super-hard cast" bullets to hunt?

.44 Mag for black bear, etc.
Edited original post for clarity.

[Gateholio]

Cast bullets- hard or soft- are all considered expanding bullets.

[steel_ram]

Large caliber, hard cast bullets don't expend much, if at all. Tend to act like solids . But they aren't jacketed and do kill game very well. I always assumed they met legal requirements.

[Pyro]

Maybe fire some into a stack of really wet newspaper at the same velocity/range as real conditions and see how they expand.

[dellis]

I have used hard cast on several big game animals with varying degrees of success. I will not use them for hunting any more. Never lost an animal, but had a few go further(with good solid hits) than I liked. Ever since then, I cast my lead bullets 50:50 wheel weights to pure lead. Or 30:1 lead: tin. Moose, deer, bear, all dead within 100yards(usually less than 50)........only found one bullet so far as they usually exit. For reference I shoot a 45-70 425 grain cast at about 1700 FPS.
Hope this saves someone from losing an animal.
Darcy

[pazz0]

Maybe fire some into a stack of really wet newspaper at the same velocity/range as real conditions and see how they expand.


That is a good practical test, but unfortunately I'm more concerned with how a CO will view the situation. Check my first post again for another update. I've included a pic of the bullet in question.

[Islandbowhunter]

I agree that the reg is more towards FMJ rounds. Hard cast lead is a proven killer, although not the fastest dispatch.

I think you're fine, but why don't you phone a CO to get it straight from the horse's mouth?

[pazz0]

I agree that the reg is more towards FMJ rounds. Hard cast lead is a proven killer, although not the fastest dispatch.

I think you're fine, but why don't you phone a CO to get it straight from the horse's mouth?


The truth is, I'm more concerned with defensive shooting as well as hunting. I have other more practical bullets for specific game (deer, etc). These 330gr bullets are for my 16" 1895 Trapper Takedown. Perfect for the bush.

[burger]

??? I think you have it backwards.

The " non expanding bullets" is more towards FMJ or steal core. Hard cast lead at the right speed would be great.


Nope he asked:Does "non-expanding" refer to hard-cast lead

Answer:If hard cast lead expands then no

[chilko]

The truth is, I'm more concerned with defensive shooting as well as hunting. I have other more practical bullets for specific game (deer, etc). These 330gr bullets are for my 16" 1895 Trapper Takedown. Perfect for the bush.

I don't use cast myself , but my son loads some for his 45-70. The only bear shot with that load went further by a wide margin ,than any well shot bear i've ever seen. For defensive purposes I'd rather use a well constructed expanding bullet.Like I say i only have that one experience to go by but i tend to agree with deliss that the cast is a sure but not fast killer. Taken or seen taken bears with a wide assortment from 270 to 458 Lott and feel bullet selection and shot placement is more critical than caliber.

[Camp Cook]

Oh why do some of you guess at the answer to simple questions like this.

Yes you can hunt with hard cast bullets just make sure that they have as wide of meplat as you can get the bullet in the center of the pic is an example of the best style of handgun cartridge bullets available.

I use the same basic style in my 45 Colts/454 Casull's for hunting right now I am hunting coastal blacktail with my 14" barreled T/C Contender carbine in 45 Colt the loads I am using are 345gr Beartooth WLNGC's (hard cast).

I just put one thru a 11 1/2" birch tree shot from 20 yards found the bullet sticking out the far side of the tree the wide meplat had only the slightest expansion on the edges of the meplat.

The thing with .429"/.452" wide meplat bullets is they do not have to expand to create wide wound cavities they are already as wide as expanded smaller caliber bullets.

[pazz0]

For defensive purposes I'd rather use a well constructed expanding bullet...and feel bullet selection and shot placement is more critical than caliber.

Although I fully agree with you when in a general hunting situation where shot placement can be calculated and decided upon, in a defensive situation it has been proven that a) you do not have time to aim as you would when hunting, and b) you want deep penetration and a hard bullet to bust bones and effectively collapse the animal in its tracks. Your idea of using an expanding bullet will likely hit the animal on a bone and expand, giving the animal time to ruin your day. Killing the animal is not necessarily the objective as "stopping" the animal is. Whether the animal is still alive after the attack will be dealt with at that time. Your life is far more important than ethical shot placement, as you are not hunting, you are defending.

I just got off the phone with the CO. He will get back to me in a few day and I'll report back our findings. I asked him the original question which is whether or not these bullets can be used for hunting. I do not care whether or not they are legal for defence.

Please lets keep this thread ON topic. I hate those damn bear defence threads that go way off-topic and people get all huffy debating guns vs bear spray, ethical vs unethical shot placement, 12 ga slugs vs .45-70, head shots vs shoulder shots, etc, etc, etc, etc........


Thanks for everybody's replies.

[chilko]

If you cannot aim in a defensive situation how can you depend on" busting bone and effectively collapsing an animal in its tracks " . My point ,even if it was off topic, was that a "well constructed bullet" ie barnes x , swift a frame etc is fully capable of penetrating bones but also expands and expends energy in an animal causing swift death. To me the definition of stopping something is for it to take less time and distance not more. Anyway will be curious what the CO has to say about the original question.

[burger]

Oh why do some of you guess at the answer to simple questions like this.

Yes you can hunt with hard cast bullets just make sure that they have as wide of meplat as you can get the bullet in the center of the pic is an example of the best style of handgun cartridge bullets available.

I use the same basic style in my 45 Colts/454 Casull's for hunting right now I am hunting coastal blacktail with my 14" barreled T/C Contender carbine in 45 Colt the loads I am using are 345gr Beartooth WLNGC's (hard cast).

I just put one thru a 11 1/2" birch tree shot from 20 yards found the bullet sticking out the far side of the tree the wide meplat had only the slightest expansion on the edges of the meplat.

The thing with .429"/.452" wide meplat bullets is they do not have to expand to create wide wound cavities they are already as wide as expanded smaller caliber bullets.

If i read the section of the regs the OP posted I am under the impression that if the bullet does not expand then it would be an illegal ammunition correct. I understand that the .429/.452 bulets will make a wide wound cavity but from what i read they would still be illegal if they dont expand. Correct??


Just asking so I am clear.

[meesemoot]

Can you hunt with .44 MAG super hard cast lead bullets in BC?

Yes.

Does "non-expanding" refer to hard-cast lead?

No.

What was the question, again?

[burger]

just read this off a site called BIG BORE

Depending on certain variables, in many instances and for many uses, hard cast bullets will not deform or 'mushroom' when they impact living mammal tissues, but lead bullets will deform or 'mushroom' at very low impact speeds. Lead bullets will deform and have much less penetration while hard cast bullets will maintain their shape and penetrate deeply however, this requires using sufficiently hard alloy mixes, matched with intended impact speeds on the intended medium.

So it looks like depending on the composition of said hard cast bullet some may be acceptable and some may not

[Gateholio]

************sigh*****************




Cast bullets- hard or soft- are all considered expanding bullets.

[pazz0]

If you cannot aim in a defensive situation how can you depend on" busting bone and effectively collapsing an animal in its tracks "

I said "aim as you would when hunting." That means aiming for the heart/lungs, etc.


My point ,even if it was off topic, was that a "well constructed bullet" ie barnes x , swift a frame etc is fully capable of penetrating bones but also expands and expends energy in an animal causing swift death.

Cool, I'll check those out! I kind of like my big 330gr bullets though, they're just so damn...big.

As for the CO - I've dealt with him in the past and he's a good guy. He told me that he will ask this question to his colleagues and look it up until he gets the correct answer. I thought that was pretty honest.

[scoutlt1]

Cast bullets- hard or soft- are all considered expanding bullets.


This, right here, is your answer.

[burger]

************sigh*****************

Originally Posted by Gatehouse

Cast bullets- hard or soft- are all considered expanding bullets.



http://www.federalpremium.com/hunters_education/handgun_bullet_details.aspx

Read the castcore description. I am by no means a bullet expert but Im pretty sure that it say non expanding but hey like I said i am sooo not a bullet expert

[Gateholio]

I don't need to read something on the Federal site to know what a hard cast bullet is, and what they are designed to do. I've shot plenty of them.

One more time:

Cast bullets- hard or soft- are all considered expanding bullets.


They are lead bullets with no jackets, and they will deform under the proper conditions. Not shooting deer in the ribs at moderate velocity though...The whole concept of using the hard cast is that you already have a large bullet, so expansion is not required for effect. You sacrifice expansion for penetration, just like some jacketed bullets opening quickly and some slower but penetrate more.

However, for this conversation, all cast bullets are legal for hunting in BC, since you can't make a lead bullet that won't deform at least somewhat. The regulations say "non expanding" not "minimal expansion"

Not to mention the most important part- CO's don't carry Brinell Hardness Testing devices to check lead bullets to see how hard or soft they are!!

[Darksith]

The truth is, I'm more concerned with defensive shooting as well as hunting. I have other more practical bullets for specific game (deer, etc). These 330gr bullets are for my 16" 1895 Trapper Takedown. Perfect for the bush.

here we go again...defensive shooting? Well if it helps you sleep, but odds are great that you will never fire in self defense of an animal

and you sir, are more concerned about defensive shooting, thus that is what your question is about regariding these bullets since you stated that you have other rounds for hunting. If this is about defense then the regs dont apply.

[Slinky Pickle]

unfortunately I'm more concerned with how a CO will view the situation

Then there's only one person you should ask..... a CO. :)

[pazz0]

If this is about defense then the regs dont apply.


Then there's only one person you should ask..... a CO. :)


My answer to both your comments were in one post (#19 on page 2). Thanks though..

I just got off the phone with the CO. He will get back to me in a few day and I'll report back our findings. I asked him the original question which is whether or not these bullets can be used for hunting. I do not care whether or not they are legal for defence.

[Camp Cook]

I was looking thru my old pics and found these photos of a couple of the wide meplat hard cast bullets I load/shoot.

.452" 355gr Beartooth WLNGC 454 Casull load these @ 1650fps in my LSI Puma M92 454 Casull

http://www.hunt101.com/data/539/medium/454_Casull_355gr_WLNGC_s_Starline_brass.jpg

458 bullets that I load/shoot left to right
150gr JRN .308 far left for standard
300gr Spitzer Alpha Lafrank
300gr Hornady HP
350gr Swift A-Frame
405gr Beartooth GC
405gr Spitzer Alpha Lafrank
425gr Beartooth WLNGC
430gr Cast Performance WLNGC
450gr Barnes TSX
525gr Beartooth WLNGC
550gr Jae-Bok Joung "Crater" WLNGC


http://www.hunt101.com/data/544/medium/458_Bullets_003.jpg

.458" 550gr Jae-Bok Young Crater I load these @ 1580fps in my Marlin 1895GS 45-70

http://www.hunt101.com/data/544/medium/458_Bullets_006.jpg

[pazz0]

I spoke to the CO. Yes, it is legal to hunt with hard cast lead bullets. I edited my original post for clarity.


Thanks for everybody's replies here.