Spike fork moose question??/

[eastkoot]

Would you shoot a moose that has only a 4 inch point on one side that is still in velvet as he didn't rub it clean??? Thought I'd put this out here to see what you would do... I'm still mooseless in Sparwood!!!:(

[rocksteady]

What does the other side have??

[ianwuzhere]

naa- too small- let him grow up big- minimum 55" spread..

[Ambush]

Clearly, positively, absolutely!!! That's about as text book as a "spike / fork" gets.

[OutWest]

What does the other side have??

It doesn't matter what the other side has.

[The Dawg]

Nope. Has to be visible bony antlers according to the regs , and velvet isn't "bony".

:)

[Tikka270]

My question is, why wouldn't you?

[rocksteady]

It doesn't matter what the other side has.


Sure it does, if he is a 10 point on the other side, even though he has a single point stub, you know for a fact that he is not a "immy", just a messed up mature bull...

[Ambush]

Nope. Has to be visible bony antlers according to the regs , and velvet isn't "bony".

:)

Think of when you watch porn wearing your velvet underwear. Is it bony under the velvet?

[The Dawg]

Sure it does, if he is a 10 point on the other side, even though he has a single point stub, you know for a fact that he is not a "immy", just a messed up mature bull...


Thas why the regs changed from "immature" to spike-fork.

[The Dawg]

Think of when you watch porn wearing your velvet underwear. Is it bony under the velvet?


Underwear?

[ianwuzhere]

ha, no gold bond member owns underwear,, duhhh

[rocksteady]

Thas why the regs changed from "immature" to spike-fork.

If i read it correctly the intent of the spike/fork is to allow the harvest of immature (1.2 to 2.5 year old bulls) not genetically inferior or damaged mature bull racks...

Reading the definition of a spike fork - Having no more than two pints on one antler.. Therefore a 1 or 2 by 3, sure, 1 or 2 by 4, maybe, 1 or 2 by 5, not sure, maybe starting to stretch it a bit... 1 or 2 by 10 thats palmated, now you are grasping at straws

[The Dawg]

If i read it correctly the intent of the spike/fork is to allow the harvest of immature (1.2 to 2.5 year old bulls) not genetically inferior or damaged mature bull racks...

That may be the intent, but that is not the legality of it. Someone can shoot a spike on one side with 15 points on the other, and still be considered legal.

[swampdonkey]

That may be the intent, but that is not the legality of it. Someone can shoot a spike on one side with 15 points on the other, and still be considered legal.
yup it can be done i should've shot one like that about 15 years ago a didn't called the co and he said i could 've shot it

[OutWest]

Sure it does, if he is a 10 point on the other side, even though he has a single point stub, you know for a fact that he is not a "immy", just a messed up mature bull...

The other side of his antlers is irrelevant. If he has 2 or less on one side, he is legal.

[The Dawg]

If i read it correctly the intent of the spike/fork is to allow the harvest of immature (1.2 to 2.5 year old bulls) not genetically inferior or damaged mature bull racks...

Reading the definition of a spike fork - Having no more than two pints on one antler.. Therefore a 1 or 2 by 3, sure, 1 or 2 by 4, maybe, 1 or 2 by 5, not sure, maybe starting to stretch it a bit... 1 or 2 by 10 thats palmated, now you are grasping at straws

how is that grasping at straws? It's the way the reg are written unfortunately. Having no more than two tines on one antler means exactly that. Two tines one side, 4,5 , 10, 12 on the other - it doesn't matter it's still legal until the regs are changed, that's what it's going to happen.

[jml11]

definition of a spike fork - Having no more than two pints on one antler

This is all you need to know...there is no age in the definition. A 1x10 is 100% legal even though he might be 7 or 8 years old.

I've had this conversation with a CO i play hockey with and he has said even if the antler is busted off leaving only 1 or 2 points, it is legal as long as the remaing antler still meets the definition of a tine (i.e. 1" long and longer than it is wide). He did caveat that it better be an obvious old break though...

[rocksteady]

So what we are saying here is if it is a 2 by 10, I would not shoot it, Noah and Nick would... Fair enough... To me it gets away from the intent of harvesting immature bulls, and playing in the grey area... I just would not want to go there... You may, I don't

[Mikey Rafiki]

That may be the intent, but that is not the legality of it. Someone can shoot a spike on one side with 15 points on the other, and still be considered legal.

That's the spirit! I don't care if it's a 1x2 or a 1x37 that thing is going down. Spent too many years trying to get a moose LEH in the Koots. That would be the only mature bull of my life and I would be damn proud.

[ElliotMoose]

Let him eat some dirt! One tine only? Legal as it gets. Put him down and post up some pictures!

[coach]

So what we are saying here is if it is a 2 by 10, I would not shoot it, Noah and Nick would... Fair enough... To me it gets away from the intent of harvesting immature bulls, and playing in the grey area... I just would not want to go there... You may, I don't

There is no longer any reference in the regulations regarding "immature" moose. It's simply a moose having no more than 2 tines on one antler and does not include a calf. At one time I believe they were referred to as "immature bull moose". Many of us still call them immy's but the regs don't differentiate. Personally, I won't be walking away from any legal bulls. Finding them is like looking for needles in haystacks.

[doubled]

Sure it does, if he is a 10 point on the other side, even though he has a single point stub, you know for a fact that he is not a "immy", just a messed up mature bull...

No, it doesn't matter. That is why they changed the terminology it from Immature moose to Spike fork.

[moose2]

Good post Coach still thinking in the past have cost some people some legal moose from the sounds of it. I bet for every older bull that gets shot under the two point or less rule, I am sure dozens of young 3 x 3 or more points survive even though age wise they would be immature as well. I am glad they dropped that wording it is far more cut and dry now.
Mike

[Caveman]

Sure it does, if he is a 10 point on the other side, even though he has a single point stub, you know for a fact that he is not a "immy", just a messed up mature bull...

The term "immature" no longer applies. if it meets the definition of a spike/fork, then yes, dump him. The chances of finding a 10 point by spike is even lower than finding the one the regs refers to, and by definition is legal

[Caveman]

Several years ago I called Fish & Wildlife Management and asked the question and here was my response

I talked to a Carol Foote from Fish & Wildlife and the defintion of a Spike-Fork Bullmoose is as follows; as long as there are only two points on one side or the other, the bull is legal, regardless of age. So if the bull has a paddle with ten points on one side and a deformity of two points on the other he is fair game. The only thing that would change this is if the two points were because of a broken antler, this would deem the bull illegal. No longer is the term immature used to describe a Spike-Fork bull.

[Thatguyiam]

I don't understand what is so complicated about spike/fork specifications. Seems straight forward to me

[OutWest]

I don't understand what is so complicated about spike/fork specifications. Seems straight forward to me

It is straight forward. Not sure what's so confusing. Seems to be a new thread asking essentially the same question every few days.

[Benthos]

a 4 inch tine on one side???

i'd drop it in a second

[j270wsm]

I'll try and post pics of the bull I shot 2yrs ago. his longest tine/beam is only 2", If he wasn't up hill 25yds away with an overcast sky behind him I would have thought he was a cow. Paterson did the inspection and the co's didn't come take it.

[*bcgold*]

Read it again, and at the end it says refer to diagram. Spike - fork bull moose.

[Mr. Dean]

kablooie!!!

[Buffalo Bills]

Have some comments already been removed from this thread.....:confused:

[Duidery]

Where's the pic? He should be dead!

[eastkoot]

Just one side with velvet on a 4" antler, nothing on the other side.. keep in mind the regs say "bony" antler which does not include "velvet" which is not cleaned and therefore not "bony". Reason for not including small bulls with nubs (which could be over an inch at times) with velvet.....Velvet is NOT a bony antler per definition..Something to think about??? The question is the single velvet point, nothing to do with a palm and a single point or what another side of an antler has to do with the spike fork def...No Kablooeee I'm thinking or I'd be eating moose meat..

[ARC]

Would you shoot a moose that has only a 4 inch point on one side that is still in velvet as he didn't rub it clean??? Thought I'd put this out here to see what you would do... I'm still mooseless in Sparwood!!!:(


Just one side with velvet on a 4" antler, nothing on the other side.. keep in mind the regs say "bony" antler which does not include "velvet" which is not cleaned and therefore not "bony". Reason for not including small bulls with nubs and velvet.....Velvet is NOT a bony antler per definition..Something to think about???

i never knew there was a definition for bony that meant "without velvet". To me "bony" is more a description of the physical composition of an antler. The bony antler is still there, just covered in velvet.

Actually, if your definition is correct, then anyone who has shot an animal in velvet under an "antlered" regulation has broken the law....haha, don't think so.

[r106]

So what we are saying here is if it is a 2 by 10, I would not shoot it, Noah and Nick would... Fair enough... To me it gets away from the intent of harvesting immature bulls, and playing in the grey area... I just would not want to go there... You may, I don't

Thats the beauty of the spike fork season, there is NO grey area. If it has 1 -2 points on one side it's legal. If you choose not to shoot it then thats fine. I'm sure there might be another hunter that would grateful. haha like me hopefully

[r106]

I don't think having velvet on it would make a difference. We can shoot mulies and whities in velvet.

[tomahawk]

Its legal so if your looking for a moose shoot it!

[ARC]

As long as it met the definition of a bull, and not a calf, I would have let him have it.

[eastkoot]

The only mention of bony antler is in the definition of a spike/fork bull moose, NOT mentioned in any other antlered animal, velvet bucks/bulls are not included (no bone required).. So ?? Also there are no definitions to discern bulls or calves as far as antler configuration?? The main reason "bony"s there is so you don't kill a new bull calf with nubs longer than an inch with VELVET...

[KodiakHntr]

And if he was farther north into 7b from august 15 to the 31'st he'd be legal as an "any bull".....

[rattle e 6speed]

If I'm not mistaking, a moose with a spike on one side and tri-palm the other is according to the regs a spike fork. Just like a mulie with 4 on one side and 3 the other is 4point or better legal.

[ARC]

The only mention of bony antler is in the definition of a spike/fork bull moose, NOT mentioned in any other antlered animal, velvet bucks/bulls are not included (no bone required).. So ?? Also there are no definitions to discern bulls or calves as far as antler configuration?? The main reason "bony"s there is so you don't kill a new bull calf with nubs longer than an inch with VELVET...

Read the definition of "antlered animal" again......"a member of the deer family over one year of age bearing visible bony antlers". It applies to all age classes (over 1) and species.

As long as the moose was not a calf, I can't see how it would be illegal.

[Jimmy4x4]

So what we are saying here is if it is a 2 by 10, I would not shoot it, Noah and Nick would... Fair enough... To me it gets away from the intent of harvesting immature bulls, and playing in the grey area... I just would not want to go there... You may, I don't

The grey area would be shooting a 1x2 bull elk as a spike. no, wait, that's not grey at all, that's illegal

A bull moose can be a 2x15 and be 100% legal and 100% within management objectives using antler restrictions to limit the harvest level. no-one cries foul when a 2 year old 4 point mule deer is shot in 4 point season. age class isnt what they are concerned with only the percent of the bulls or bucks that can be shot under the regulation to keep harvest down

[mark]

Boom, Dead, no brainer! I do love it how some of you dont shoot these moose though, improves the already crappy odds for the rest of us! lol

[Ogopogo]

I saw a 5 X Nothing a few days ago, would that be legal?

[mark]

I saw a 5 X Nothing a few days ago, would that be legal?

Hardly qualifys as a spike or a fork does it???

[Ogopogo]

ya that is true, but the definition states "no more than two tines on one antler" wouldn't nothing be considered "no more than two"?

but i guess the words "spike" and "fork" explain it in further detail.

[KodiakHntr]

Gotta be an antler THERE, for to have no more than two tines....

[Ogopogo]

ya thats true, makes sense to me now, makes me feel better that the moose I saw was indeed not legal, i automatically assumed he wasn't a legal shooter anyways, but then after reading this post it got me thinking.

[Sofa King]

so, just where was this moose with the four-inch spike again?
i'll go have a look and report back.

[eastkoot]

Have an email to Stephen McIver and will let you all know in a few days whether it's legal or not cause I'm not sure, maybe I could have been eating moose meat this year!!..Just putting the question out there!!

[Ltbullken]

Sure it does, if he is a 10 point on the other side, even though he has a single point stub, you know for a fact that he is not a "immy", just a messed up mature bull...

....But legal to shoot.

[waynorth]

Sure it does, if he is a 10 point on the other side, even though he has a single point stub, you know for a fact that he is not a "immy", just a messed up mature bull...






the regs say spike fork on one side

[rocksteady]

Since I only have 27 hours left in the 2012 moose season I doubt I will run across this situation.... Next year I may be thinking different :)

[waynorth]

it is legal velvet or not. hard to find any moose Aug 15th when season opens that does not have velvet

[rocksteady]

Thanks Eastkoot.... An interpretation email from a COnservation Officer goes a lot further to ease concerns than 1000 interprtations of HBC'ers...

[DR800]

the regs say spike fork on one side

Might want to re-read those regs : Moose - Spike-fork Bull - means a bull
moose having no more than two tines on one
antler. (Includes tines on main antler and brow
palms.) Does not include a calf. See diagram.

[OutWest]

There is no interpretation, it's cut as cut 'n' dry as it gets.

[*bcgold*]

You should of took a picture. (too bad) I think guys talking 10 x 2, are walking in a very GREY area. When the definition tells you to look at a diagram, all you see are 4 young bulls not mature bull with a mess up antler. I bet you saw a calf bull keeping his distance from a mature bull bitch slapping his mom.

[Jimmy4x4]

You should of took a picture. (too bad) I think guys talking 10 x 2, are walking in a very GREY area. When the definition tells you to look at a diagram, all you see are 4 young bulls not mature bull with a mess up antler. I bet you saw a calf bull keeping his distance from a mature bull bitch slapping his mom.

Is 2 no more than 2? or is 2 more than 2? how did you do in math class?

[OutWest]

You should of took a picture. (too bad) I think guys talking 10 x 2, are walking in a very GREY area. When the definition tells you to look at a diagram, all you see are 4 young bulls not mature bull with a mess up antler. I bet you saw a calf bull keeping his distance from a mature bull bitch slapping his mom.

What exactly is grey when they say no more than 2?

[Brambles]

bang, dead......


Moose

- Spike-fork Bull - means a bullmoose having no more than two tines on oneantler. (Includes tines on main antler and brow
palms.) Does not include a calf. See diagram.


No mention of boney protrusion




Tine or "Point" -

means a branch of anantler which is longer than its breadth and is atleast 2.5 cm in length, and for the purpose ofdetermining the length of a tine(a) the breadth of the tine is measured (ifextending from a palmation of an antler, then inthe plane of the palm) at a location at least 2.5cm from the tip of the tine, and(b) the length of the tine is measured from itstip end, following the midline of the profile ofthe tine, and following the natural curvatureof the tine, to the midpoint of the straight linealong which the breadth is measured. (See
How to Measure a Tine diagram below)

No mention of boney protrusion


Spike Buck - means a male deer having
antlers that are composed of a main beam
from which there are no bony projections
greater than 2.5 cm in length.


Doens't apply here but I've seen small bucks that the antlers haven't even broke the skin on the head, this is what they are talking about regarding bony projection, anything that has broken the hair and is over 2.5 cm in length and meets the definition of a point is fair game. Not sure where eastkoot got the idea that velvet was a deal breaker is unknown to me.....

Alpine mulies are off limits to everyone now because of eastkoots new found definiton of antlers.....If its got velvet its gotta walk because its not considered legal till the velvets off...............I think not.

[*bcgold*]

I guess it's not grey...my bad...

[Taylor69]

Saw a big bull once that had lost one entire side to rutting. I said to dad the regs say two points or less on one side is the definition of an immature bull. This one has zero on one Side. Talked with a co the next day and he said he would have been legal to shoot as an immature bull. Still don't think I would do it though....

[bcfirefly]

Well last night while on a quick hunt after work i saw what i thought was a spike but then saw a small palm. Managed to get the beast right on the road at about 40 yards but was solo and all my buddies were out of town and i'm new to hunting so i was a) questioning the legality of the antlers, and b) knew i was in for a long night. But on reading this he's legal basically a copy of the bottom right pic in the regs. Buddies are still outta town so if anyone around vernon / lumby wants half a moose they can join me and we can take the immy down!

[Mikey Rafiki]

Saw a big bull once that had lost one entire side to rutting. I said to dad the regs say two points or less on one side is the definition of an immature bull. This one has zero on one Side. Talked with a co the next day and he said he would have been legal to shoot as an immature bull. Still don't think I would do it though....

Did he loose the one side completely, like base and all, or did he have a chunk of main beam left long enough to be considered a legal "point"? Don't think it would count if nothing was there, and if it's a fresh break things could get real sketchy.

[krazy]

Boom, Dead, no brainer! I do love it how some of you dont shoot these moose though, improves the already crappy odds for the rest of us! lol

lol ... I stopped replying to these threads partly for that reason. How much clearer can it get? If certain individuals choose to not shoot legal moose who am I to try and convince them otherwise ... better chance for the rest of us! ;)

[Rock Doctor]

Mmmmmm Spike/Fork
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o281/RockDocPhoto/2010%20Animals/IMG_0008.jpg

RD

[Taylor69]

Did he loose the one side completely, like base and all, or did he have a chunk of main beam left long enough to be considered a legal "point"? Don't think it would count if nothing was there, and if it's a fresh break things could get real sketchy.
Busted off completely! I don't think I would have taken it then if i new then what i know now,hate someone to allege that I did it myself. Just posting the fact that it was less than two points on one side and as the co said "legal to shoot".

[eastkoot]

I guess I could have been eating moose meat, Oh well!!!



Thank you for your email dated October 30, 2012, regarding the legal definition of a spike-fork moose. My apologies for the delay in responding.
It is difficult to determine the legality of an animal based on the description provided. The legal definition of a “tine” is provided below:

"tine" or "point" means the branch of an antler which is longer than its breadth and is at least 2.5 cm (1 inch) in length, and for the purpose of determining the length of a tine
(a) the breadth of the tine is measured (if extending from a palmation of an antler, then in the plane of the palm) at a location at least 2.5 cm (1 inch) from the tip of the tine, and
(b) the length of the tine is measured from its tip end, following the midline of the profile of the tine, and following the natural curvature of the tine, to the midpoint of the straight line along which the breadth is measured;

During a spike-fork season there is no open season (other than LEH or possibly tri-palm/10 point) for bull moose unless the bull moose has no more than two tines (points) on one antler. There is no reference in the regulations regarding the presence or absence of velvet, it is my interpretation that the presence or absence of velvet has no bearing on the legality of a spike-fork moose.

Regards,

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/image001.jpg@01CDBB4E.ADF88140Stephen MacIver|Policy & Regulations Analyst|Fish, Wildlife and Habitat Management Branch|Ministry of Forests, Lands, and Natural Resource Operations|Phone (250) 387-9767|Email: stephen.maciver@gov.bc.ca

[rocksteady]

Dam!!! How much you wanna bet that bull grows 3 tines or more for next year, just to pee you off....

Thanks for posting the results of the discussion with the CO...

[The Dawg]

Printing, putting in plastic bag, and going into my hunting kit for next year !

[dana]

I find it amazing that this type of thread comes up again and again and experienced hunters still do not know how to read the regs.
Legal or would you pass???
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/PB030020.jpg

[Piperdown]

bang flop Dana :)

[Jonas111]

I find it amazing that this type of thread comes up again and again and experienced hunters still do not know how to read the regs.
Legal or would you pass???
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/PB030020.jpg

Illegal and I would pass.

[OutWest]

Illegal and I would pass.

I'll bite.

Assuming you're not being sarcastic and actually mean what you wrote. What exactly is it that you think is illegal about this? That picture right there is the definition of spike-fork to a tee.

[hunter1993ap]

Illegal and I would pass.

definately not illegal and i would not pass,

[Jonas111]

I'll bite.

Assuming you're not being sarcastic and actually mean what you wrote. What exactly is it that you think is illegal about this? That picture right there is the definition of spike-fork to a tee.

Ok, although this is legal according the brief description in the regulations, the whole idea of immature or now more recently called "spike fork" is for the harvest of a young moose. Not a moose that has 15 points on one side and a busted antler on the other side showing one or two points.

So yes I was being sarcastic and yes I would shoot that bull in the picture because I know from the brief description in the regulations that it is a legal spike fork. I've spoke to a CO in the bush about it one afternoon and he said it would be legal according to the regulations.

My point is that there is a grey area in the regulations and I understand why some people get confused. And when people get confused they make mistakes.

Sorry for being sarcastic, I just thought this topic needed to keep going. I'm sure a lot of people learnt more about the spike fork moose.

[Sofa King]

there's no grey area.
it's spike-fork moose, not immature.

if you feel guilty about shooting something that's young, do you also pass on smaller bucks?

[tomahawk]

I find it amazing that this type of thread comes up again and again and experienced hunters still do not know how to read the regs.
Legal or would you pass???
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/PB030020.jpg

Legal and dead if the right side only has the 2 points as seen in the picture.

[dana]

Ok, although this is legal according the brief description in the regulations, the whole idea of immature or now more recently called "spike fork" is for the harvest of a young moose. Not a moose that has 15 points on one side and a busted antler on the other side showing one or two points.

So yes I was being sarcastic and yes I would shoot that bull in the picture because I know from the brief description in the regulations that it is a legal spike fork. I've spoke to a CO in the bush about it one afternoon and he said it would be legal according to the regulations.

My point is that there is a grey area in the regulations and I understand why some people get confused. And when people get confused they make mistakes.

Sorry for being sarcastic, I just thought this topic needed to keep going. I'm sure a lot of people learnt more about the spike fork moose.

That bull meets the point defination and also meets the previous age definition of a immy. He is a very young bull with both good genetics and poor genetics. His pedicle is messed on the 2 point side. It is on his head totally wrong. Hard to tell from the picture but that 2 point side is actually a drop tine that was tight to his head. I doubt he ever would have grown a proper paddle on that side if he had of reached maturity.

[hunter1947]

The wildlife branch in the future needs to implement in the regs that a spike fork having no more then two points on ether side to be legal ,,,regarding this thread I would shoot anything that had 15 points on one side as long as the other side only had two points or one..

[hunter1947]

Just one side with velvet on a 4" antler, nothing on the other side.. keep in mind the regs say "bony" antler which does not include "velvet" which is not cleaned and therefore not "bony". Reason for not including small bulls with nubs (which could be over an inch at times) with velvet.....Velvet is NOT a bony antler per definition..Something to think about??? The question is the single velvet point, nothing to do with a palm and a single point or what another side of an antler has to do with the spike fork def...No Kablooeee I'm thinking or I'd be eating moose meat..


My thoughts are the first year a calf moose is born from my experience if the calf is a bull he will have no antler growth the first year ,,its into the second year that the bull will show antler growth.

I could be wrong but what I have seen out there is a first year born bull calf will have bumps showing on top of his head and no growth that year ,,the bull you saw had 4 inch long antler growth on the one side with velvet ,,,the velvet thing does come questionable ????...

Another point is say a bull had 2x1 points or 1x1 with 4 inch long tine on his head and was covered with velvet is it not the same thing the bone has velvet on it no bone showing ???.

I will be asking the wildlife branch about this issue for sure just in case I am hunting in an area for spike-fork bull moose ,,good point you brought up hear EK....