Moose pop. at 50%

[pete_k]

Article in PG media about moose population. Population down 50% since 2005.
Some areas are 60% and 70%. They should stop the calf hunt imo.
http://www.250news.com/blog/view/26169/1/no+single+reason+for+moose+population+decline+says +expert

[Island Idiots]

I would suggest a wolf cull and more effort put into increased harvest of black bears.

[Grousedaddy]

All the reasons in the article play a part in the decline. Its true atvs and utvs can access alot more area then a 4x4 truck. You can drop a moose almost anywhere if you have the means to get it out, trail cams are great but it mostly just shows you what is in the general area they dont show up on camera everyday at the same time ... I also think the calf tags should be stopped aswell. I dont know what the wolf numbers are like in pg so i wont comment on that but im sure they are getting bigger like they are elseware in the province.

[boxhitch]

The antler restrictions are the controlling function in the regs that keep the gos to a sustainable kill rate.
The calf season is justified by thinking that the animals killed and used by hunters are the ones that would winter kill , and in the spring the same number are surviving, whether the hunt occurs or not.
Hunting is not the problem.
Hunter numbers are still lower than historic levels.
Has success rate actually increased due to the use of quads and more access ? Who can quantify that ?

Interesting that a former prov bio is quoted, and not the current staff . Agenda ?

[howa1500]

I read another article about the topic. Many "experts" are citing the beetle kill, and logging of beetle infested areas as opening to much bush up, creating to much open area for moose to fall victim to predation and hunting.

[Gateholio]

Probably global warning is to blame

[kgs]

In my opinion I have seen an increase in the wolf population as well in the black bear population in the last three years in 7-15 and 7-12. Some of my favorite spots are now void of moose and deer and signs of wolf prints and bear scat are every where. This year alone i have seen 15 black bear and 6 wolfs. I have yet to see a bull moose and have only seen 3 cows and one calf. On the other side of it I met some hunters from the Kelowna who tagged out in three days one two point bull and two calf's.
Not to mention the amount of moose killed by trains in the interior which could be part of the problem.

As for hunters they are everywhere on the roads and in camps and the blocks are over flowing with parked trucks moreover I have not been able to go anywhere without running in to hunters. My concern with ATV's are the times they are allowed to run for example in Oct in region 7 you can not be on an ATV between 6:30 am to 10 am however I saw many hunters on ATV's at 7 and 8 am hunting and retrieving game. I also met hunters who suggested that they would kill moose for relatives and or friends and just call them to cut their tags. I have hunted near rivers in PG and in the last three years I have noticed a huge increase in river hunting and know of two co workers and their relatives who have tagged out in a day by simply going up and down the river. Not to mention how many hunters who have said they have a native friends they hunt with so they can shoot anything. Now I am not trying to start trouble for anyone just looking at the moose decline in a realistic way.

Simply Moose are being hunted to death by predators and humans included. This includes poor and unethical hunting practices and I should mention I did speak to the group of hunters from Kelowna about them riding their quads before 10 am and they said they would check in to it and the funny thing is the next day around 9am one of them flagged me down while riding his quad as said he looked up the rule and I was correct and thanked me for letting him know then drove off riding his quad. To find a truly ethical hunter today is dam near impossible.

I can not argue the ability of hunters to gain access to deactivated areas however I find it a weak argument to suggest that's the reason of the moose decline. The problem is hunters can not police themselves and there is not enough CO's to effectively police the hunting season.

[steel_ram]

In the last 20 years GOS has been shortened enough to compensate to the more efficient hunter success caused by ATV's and other technologies. Calves have a incredibly high winter mortality, so why not harvest them in the fall instead of letting the wolves waste them?

[Drillbit]

Wolves are included as big game, and to restirct access on ATV's for wolf hunting it won't help the problem. ATV's have already been compensated for in regard to moose harvesting as said above by a few other guys.

Also, killing cows & calves doesn't work on a ranch to increase a herd, why should it work for moose?

[Duidery]

Calves have a incredibly high winter mortality, so why not harvest them in the fall instead of letting the wolves waste them?

Seriously? Suggesting that calves are likely to die over the winter so they should be shot during the fall is absutely ridiculous. If calves have an "incredibly high winter mortality" wouldnt you want to take measures to ensure that as many calves survive the fall so a larger number will have a chance to survive the winter?

[wsm]

seems pretty unanimis . moose pops are way down in a lot of areas. i say time to limit hunting pressure, in effected areas , offer wolf bounty , and restrict logging , atvs . untill it gets sorted out ( numbers start to increase)

[wsm]

calves opening is to try and reduce predator #'s by taking main stay of their food

[Sofa King]

seems pretty unanimis . moose pops are way down in a lot of areas. i say time to limit hunting pressure, in effected areas , offer wolf bounty , and restrict logging , atvs . untill it gets sorted out ( numbers start to increase)

impossible.

[wsm]

impossible.
whats impossible ? we are the caretakers it is up to us to make right . i know we are the only reason , however we need to speak up . we are the ones invested . if hunters cant take care of their wildlife , then who will ??

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Geeze, I wonder why moose populations are way down in the Chilcotin too? Any many other areas around the province where there are no calf seasons. You think the calf season is the problem? Take the blinders off folks and open your eyes.
The moose harvest strategy in 7A has been in place for 30 yrs. If this strategy had been adopted in the rest of the province we likely would have never seen the build up of predators like we're experiencing right now. Of course, everything gets more complex when you have other species buiding up like elk.
Wolves like them too.

SSS

[Kirby]

Seriously? Suggesting that calves are likely to die over the winter so they should be shot during the fall is absutely ridiculous. If calves have an "incredibly high winter mortality" wouldnt you want to take measures to ensure that as many calves survive the fall so a larger number will have a chance to survive the winter?


No. You are wrong, compensatory harvest vs Additive harvest.

[steel_ram]

Seriously? Suggesting that calves are likely to die over the winter so they should be shot during the fall is absutely ridiculous. If calves have an "incredibly high winter mortality" wouldnt you want to take measures to ensure that as many calves survive the fall so a larger number will have a chance to survive the winter?

I'd rather healthy cows survive. Only so much winter forage to go around, especially at calf level. Do you really think saturating the wintering area's in "redundant" calves is going to help ensure more will survive the winter? The only neg. is that the wolves will be pulling down mature animals instead of calves.

[broke]

Moose populations are down across much of the province, whereas the calf season is only open in a confined part of the province – I’m not convinced the calf season is the major contributor.

With regards to animal populations (whether it’s moose, fish, or whatever), the single most important factor is habitat. With the accelerated harvest of MPB timber, much of the mature stands have been logged. As a Professional Forester, I understand the reasons to utilize as much of this beetle wood as possible and get these areas reforested, but it cannot be denied that most ungulates benefit from mature stands. Mature stands are most important during winters with deep snow – they provide areas of feed and cover.

The second most important factor is predation. In the Prince George area, there appears to be more wolves and bears than I have seen in many years. Almost everyone I talk to has seen and/or heard wolves while hunting in the last couple years; whereas in the past a wolf sighting was much rarer.

What can be done? Well, the predator/prey relationships are often cyclical – when fox populations are high, hares are low (and vice versa). I think last year was the low point in my personal observations of deer populations and a peak for wolves. I’ve already seen more deer this year, than last year and less wolves, so I’m hopeful that time and natural cycles will help. The habitat issue is a long term one that will just take time. Look at the Bowron clearcut, which was touted as the biggest clearcut ever when they harvested the spruce beetle. Now go down the Bowron FSR and tell me how many ungulates (moose and elk predominantly) there are – answer is lots!

It’s hard to bare during the tough years, but we need to think about the situation before we go monkey’ing with regulations that have been in place for 30 years, while the population problem has only been around for a few.

Just my thoughts – I’m by no means an expert. Here’s to hoping for a rebound in ungulate populations and if I can get a wolf skin in the meantime – just a bonus.

[junkyard_g]

I think anytime u have a population outside of its historical range it is going to be more susceptible to population swings and have a lack of an ability to adapt changing conditions (i.e. tick outbreak in the early 2000's). Seems like the hardest hit areas are in the more southerly portions of the cariboo. Personally I have noticed a reduction in moose numbers around PG too but our success rate hasn't changed since i was a kid so....

also this is only one report. the data is still alarming and should be taken into account but I wouldn't start closing down any seasons or anything. the more concrete data will likely start coming in next year when they start to focus down their studies to the more severly affected areas.

[Sofa King]

whats impossible ? we are the caretakers it is up to us to make right . i know we are the only reason , however we need to speak up . we are the ones invested . if hunters cant take care of their wildlife , then who will ??

i thought i made it kinda obvious by highlighting it in red.

hunters aren't going to restrict logging.
it's the loggers who "allow" us to use their roads to access almost every hunting area.
they can shut them right down to the public if they want.

[Sofa King]

whats impossible ? we are the caretakers it is up to us to make right . i know we are the only reason , however we need to speak up . we are the ones invested . if hunters cant take care of their wildlife , then who will ??

what??
since when is it "our" wildlife?
we are the "caretakers"?
try running that one by the antis.

[SUAFOYT]

Probably global warning is to blame

How can it be, lots don't think there's a whit of evidence to support it:confused:

[wicket]

How can it be, lots don't think there's a whit of evidence to support it:confused:

pretty sure he was being sarcastic

[Gunsmoke]

The last two years that I hunted in the PG area was 2004 and 2005; right about when logging activities were frantic to try and salvage pine-beetle killed timber. I have not been up there since then but my guess is that the areas that are now devoid of any trees is an order of magnitude greater than say prior to that time leaving the moose far more exposed to hunters and other predators as they move from one area to another. Many of the ponds, swamps and meadows which were once safe havens for the moose are now easily located and accessible....the drop in population should not be a surprise......just my humble opinion...... It would be nice to see the Harvest Data trends from year 2000 to present.....

[emerson]

Region 7 doesn't have quad restrictions in all areas. Read
the regs.

[steel_ram]

Wildlife isn't managed for the wildlife's benefit.

[wsm]

what??
since when is it "our" wildlife?
we are the "caretakers"?
try running that one by the antis.
yes we are the care takers
why the hell do we need to run this by the anti's ? are you an anti ? is that why you made this statement ?
since when does logging company's care about wildlife?
i would say that leaves it in the hands of hunters to make the changes ( push to have them made ):roll:

[300]

Probably global warning is to blame

Hahaha. +1

[horshur]

do you guys think it is a good strategy to keep the calf season inspite of the low numbers??? Really??

technically we are way below carrying capacity given the opening up of the tree's.

smart people cannot live by one drummer....things change always.

what may have been reasonable once....maybe not so much now...

[steel_ram]

do you guys think it is a good strategy to keep the calf season inspite of the low numbers??? Really??

technically we are way below carrying capacity given the opening up of the tree's.

smart people cannot live by one drummer....things change always.

what may have been reasonable once....maybe not so much now...

I personally won't shoot a calf, but for all the best reasons they are the age group that should be culled. If things are that desperate, hunting by two legged predators is the easiest controlled or even stopped. Unfortunately that would be a blow to provincial revenue, misc. business's and even Walmart might have to cutback on importing chinese made camo clothing.

[SUAFOYT]

pretty sure he was being sarcastic

Damn sure I was too.

[SUAFOYT]

do you guys think it is a good strategy to keep the calf season inspite of the low numbers??? Really??

technically we are way below carrying capacity given the opening up of the tree's.

smart people cannot live by one drummer....things change always.

what may have been reasonable once....maybe not so much now...

I would have to agree 100%. Having said that does that mean that you no longer advocate GOS on moose?

[Caribou_lou]

Stop hunting calves and take out some wolves. Manage the animals/predators not the hunters.

[358mag]

Wildlife isn't managed for the wildlife's benefit.
X2 well said

[wicket]

Damn sure I was too.

lol and thats why i shouldnt type on the interweb after taking migraine medicine. im about as bright as a candle so take that into consideration too. I dont want to come off as a dumbass on here I hope to hunt with some of you guys someday

[wicket]

its been a couple years since I have looked at a synopisis (been that long, too long since ive hunted with my bro). Is there harvest statistics for all the areas of bc like there is here in ont? just curious too see what percentage of calves are being shot. We have a calf season here as well....and correct me if Im wrong here, which is based loosely on swedens moose management plan.

[wicket]

one more thing again excuse the multi posts still have the migraine and the meds in me )screen glow is killing me) and again I dont want to come off as judgemental, just curious...are those of you blaming bears as well as wolves harvesting these ever increasing predators when you get a chance or only shooting wolves given the chance? the alaskan pen is going thru the same problems with their moose pops dropping and they talk about the same thing you guys to....changing habitat ie logging practices and fire suppression, predators over harvest. they (the ak DNR) just had a GOS on brown bears with as many bears shot until 15 adult sows were killed. their dnr seems a little more proactive that our underfunded Canadian agencies. maybe check out the link and read what alaska hunters are going thru it sounds similar to what u guys are facing... http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php/114220-Kenai-Brown-Bear-Registration-Hunt yep motor mouth another side effect of migraine narcotics ... night guys

[steel_ram]

Shooting wolves? and then we'd just be managing (enhancing) the wolf population. There has to be a balance. The licensed, law abiding recreational hunter is the only one we can effectively control. To the anger of many I'm sure, we are the last in line, as it should be, harvesting the surplus.

Hunting calfs. We know what they are. Same with bulls. Cows, tough to be selective. Unlikely anyone is shooting a true "dry cow".

[BCBRAD]

I still see lots of moose when out in the field, I can only shoot what tag I have the rest walk away, finding the right one can take time. The bush has changed around here and animals are tougher to get out in the open, but they are still here in good numbers.

[kgriz]

Elk and whitetail deer taste better than moose anyways:mrgreen:
Its interesting to listen to how much people think that tweaking a reg here or there will help vs what a bad winter can do or the highway and trains for that matter.....I don't really feel like it, but if you look up the number of highway kills and train kills I'm sure you will be astounded.....I think a huge part is that the age class created by the massive harvest in PG 5-10 years ago mostly has changed/mostly grown too tall to see over and the moose are simply hard to see. I always see lots of moose sign when I'm working in the actual mature bush....The people that I hear having the most success lately are the ones that find a good grown up spot and sit in a tree-stand...I find it a bit boring but you always see some moose.

[GoatGuy]

The decline is really in the last 5 years, some cases the areas were inventoried recently and the harvest data for about the past 2-3 years indicates a dramatic decrease in KPU.

Look for the things that have changed.

[kgriz]

Speaking of elk...of which I saw a huge 6 point in my favorite spopt tonight looking for a calf...brutal. Does anybody know once and for all if the MOE has been transplanting elk around in the interior? I've heard many a farmer claim that they have seen this happenning but I've never seen conclusive evidence......Would be interesting if they were considering what we are talking about here as well as the general hate-on whitetails have been receiving as competitors. ie. how open they've become in the regs

[GoatGuy]

No, but they are planning a transplant in Region 5.

[southsider]

First nation and wolves!!!!!

[The Dude]

I always understood logging to be beneficial for browsers, as it opens up the canopy, thins out thick stands of lodgepole, and encourages fireweed, dogwood, willow growth, etc.
Is it the fact that Moose are more exposed with larger cuts? Always seems to benefit the WTs.
The other part of that coin is that anything that benefits WTs might hurt Moose. WTs carry parasites that can be fatal to Moose.

Perhaps the solution is to target key nursing/good wintering areas, and close it to all vehicle traffic for moose hunting purposes from ALL users (get my drift here).
Some form of incentive for Wolf hunting might be in order as well, althouugh a blatant "Bounty" would cause the Bunny Huggers to erupt in rapturous spasms of righteous indignation.
A free license? I think it must be up to the hunting/guiding community to look after that end, as there's no way the NDP is going to support a Wolf Cull/Bounty.

Therefore: We must organize, get all groups together, offer free tags, rifle draws, free ammo draws, gear draws, etc in a Wolf harvest Raffle.
The Great Zucchini approves as well. :D

[nor'wester]

In my opinion, it comes down to lack of knowledge (due to lack of funding) by management, combined with the pine beetle. You've got a incomprehensible change in habitat conditions combined with biologists who aren't able to get out and conduct proper surveys so they can know what the hell is going on. Yes, antler restrictions do restrict WHICH animals are harvested, but access by quads into previously inaccessible areas essentially means more animals are being harvested overall, obviously at an unsustainable rate. Yes, bears and wolves have an effect, but they were around before we got here and there were a hell of a lot more moose to go with them. Hell, we're bitching about a crash since 2005!!!...I bet comparing numbers from even 40 years ago, let alone 100 would be sickening.

[kgriz]

Goatguy.."No, but they are planning a transplant in Region 5."

The answer of no they haven't has always been the official answer...I'm not trying to conspiracy theory but I've had farmers insist that they had witnessed it at Salmon Valley and I can't remember the local spot that some farmer just told me about that they had let some Jasper elk out in....seems odd that several farmers over the years would lie about something so simple...I hardly would come off as a gullible rube or someone to obviously lie toas I am often benefitting them through my work.

[boxhitch]

I've had farmers insist that they had witnessed it at Salmon Valley and I can't remember the local spot that some farmer just told me about that they had let some Jasper elk out in.do they have crop circles too ?

[kgriz]

As a side-note, I've read in several places that moose were actually fairly rare around PG in the early 1900's.....harvesting is probably what "artificially" boosted thier numbers so high up til now due to huge increase in available pioneer species like willow....now we seem to be blaming harvesting on hurting the numbers...hmm ...if you investigate the historical facts and find this to be the case...don't confuse "caring about the natural ecosystem and balances" with complaining about not having enough moose to hunt.:-D

[kgriz]

Hah hah, Boxhitch I get your point, but sometimes it becomes quite a toss-up on who to believe these days.

[billjc33]

Every year this thread starts up and every year people quote and use some wing nut biologists theories on calf mortality. The more calves you kill in the fall the less their will be in the spring, plain and simple!!!. Use some common sense people! you are not only killing the calves that are going to die anyways. IF you have 12 calves and half of them are going to die naturally(starvation,predation, etc) you are left with 6. If you shoot 4 of those moose you are not left with 6 in the fall. The laws of chance say that if you kill 4, 2 of them will be from the half that would survive and 2 would be from the half that will die naturally. You are now left with 4 NOT 6!!!!!!

Now I am not saying that calf season is the sole reason behind the moose decline but eliminating it would be a good place to start. Their are numerous contributors

1. PREDATORS - Everyone knows that predators are multiplying. Their are wolves everywhere! The ones that aren't getting the blame are the black bears and grizzly bears. Black bears kill a huge number of moose calves every year. How many people especially around PG are seeing grizzly bears where they haven't seen them for 30 years? There seems to be grizzlies everywhere!

2 Access - Say in a region you are hunting their is a moose population of 1 moose per square/km. How many hundreds of km's of roads have been pushed in during the increased allowable cut since the bug kill epidemic? All of these moose that lived in untouched wilderness are now being hunted and pressured.

3. ATV - I think ATV hunting is very low on the impact list. Sure their are people constantly breaking the rules driving all morning before they are allowed. But I think the biggest impact the ATV has is the ability to retrieve. People will shoot a moose anywhere, in places they never would have before because they know they can get the quad to it.

4. Bug Kill - Now the predators are the major contributor to the bug kill having an impact on the decreased numbers. Been walking around the edge of clear cuts lately in bug kill infested areas? Well, moose are pretty amazing at getting through thick brush, but it is getting impassible. Advantage predators, wolves a have the ability to maneuver through this blow down. As, well have you been noticing the amount of damage and wounds on the front quarters of the moose the last couple of years. Any wolf or bear can force the moose into blow down they can't get through inflicting damage and the ability to kill.

5. Enhancements in hunting - Now this is a contributing factor but its not really one to be controlled because their are way bigger issues then this. The enhancement of guns, scopes and bullets have increased the hunters ability to shoot farther and more accurately. New scents and odour control work extremely well. Their is a thread earlier this week about moose/elk/deer bombs, although pricey these things work extremely well. Another thing is amount of people calling, sure their are still lots of road hunters out there but people are starting to get out and call. Calling isn't a new invention by any means but its getting more popular and increases your odds of harvesting a moose by a landslide. Last but not least is the internet. How many people on here have either received or given advice to someone they don't even know that has directly resulted in a moose being harvested through the internet? I'm not saying their is anything wrong with this I'm just stating facts.

I'm sure their are things I have missed but its getting late and I'm trying to keep this civil without going off on all the harvest study calf season junkies

[TyTy]

I went hunting up this way with my dad's buddy on his advice. not knowing the area myself, but expecting poor results, I found exactly that. went for calf moose and deer. nothing to be seen, wasted 7 days, no fresh tracks found even with two days of fresh snow. Nothing. oh, did find a dead bull moose (coyote/wolf tracks on road and ravens) coyotes had eaten the ass outta it. looked liked someone shot it mistakeing it for an immature, could've been considered close to one... by a dumbass... got pictures of it, but didn't linger, it stunk.


From the limited time I've spent around the plateau, I must say there sure are a lot of coyotes up there. They are like wolves in the sense that they travel in packs. must be family groups? I'd imagine that coyotes in numbers really hary unuglates. wear them down over time, intentionally or not. predator presence = pressure

[kgriz]

Every year this thread starts up and every year people quote and use some wing nut biologists theories on calf mortality. The more calves you kill in the fall the less their will be in the spring, plain and simple!!!. Use some common sense people! you are not only killing the calves that are going to die anyways. IF you have 12 calves and half of them are going to die naturally(starvation,predation, etc) you are left with 6. If you shoot 4 of those moose you are not left with 6 in the fall. The laws of chance say that if you kill 4, 2 of them will be from the half that would survive and 2 would be from the half that will die naturally. You are now left with 4 NOT 6!!!!!!


I could not agree with this more...I have asked several biologists about this very thing and every one has given kind of a blank look and more or less replied with the same canned statement of "most calves are going to die over winter anyways"
Seems like people simply quoting what they were told in university or from a paper rather than comparing it to practical math.

[TyTy]

Again, with intense logging... pine beatle... Access is really opened up. Wolves and coyotes can really increase their ease of travel along logging roads. like road hunting 24/7.

[kgriz]

Well on a good note maybe we'll become over-run with grizzly bears and they'll put it back to GOS!:mrgreen:

[TyTy]

Unit 5-13 was closed to moose hunting. yet the unit directly to the north of it has an GOS calf season, limited entry bull and cow. unit to the north west of it has an any bull GOS. How can you completely close a season in one area, and have very liberal GOS in adjacent units... I know i'm poiinting out the obvious... just sucks.

[steel_ram]

It's not a mathmatical probability question. Your dealing with living animals with a finite food supply. If the environment has a capacity to maintain 50 animals over the winter, you allow 100, then the sustainance is gone 1/2 way through the winter, meaning everyone dies (except the wolves). Harvest surplus animals, leaving the ideal 50 in, or a few less and you will have potential for maximum survival. Yes, oversimplified I know. Don't they teach this in C.O.R.E. anymore?

[Banger38]

Dont understand why anyone would want to kill a calf.

[burger]

It's not a mathmatical probability question. Your dealing with living animals with a finite food supply. If the environment has a capacity to maintain 50 animals over the winter, you allow 100, then the sustainance is gone 1/2 way through the winter, meaning everyone dies (except the wolves). Harvest surplus animals, leaving the ideal 50 in, or a few less and you will have potential for maximum survival. Yes, oversimplified I know. Don't they teach this in C.O.R.E. anymore?

Now wouldnt it be better to leave more than the sustainable number to allow for the losses of predators? It not like the wolves would wait around until the ungulates die.

[OutWest]

So much anecdotal information being thrown around in this thread.

[OutWest]

Now wouldnt it be better to leave more than the sustainable number to allow for the losses of predators? It not like the wolves would wait around until the ungulates die.

I'm sure he was including the losses to predators in the surplus he stated.

[boxhitch]

IF you have 12 calves and half of them are going to die naturally(starvation,predation, etc) you are left with 6. If you shoot 4 of those moose you are not left with 6 in the fall. The laws of chance say that if you kill 4, 2 of them will be from the half that would survive and 2 would be from the half that will die naturally. You are now left with 4 NOT 6!!!!!!First, that might fit if Nature dealt with percentages, but it doesn't.
i.e. in the space you refer to, winter limits the survival to 6, no matter what the starting figure is, the rest die, leaving 6. Science and studies and models point this out. So if there are 12 to start and hunters take 4, the chances are better for each of the 8 left to survive.
Second, 'Laws of chance' ?? Try this. Roll a dice 12 times and see how many times it comes up a 6. Roll it 120 times and see. Chance is just that , chance, no laws.

Regards to your points of access, atvs, and enhancements being impacts, you must have figures to show hunter success has gone up ?

[steel_ram]

Possibly, possibly not. As stated what I posted is over simplified. It's a tough balancing act. We want less predators we have to make it tough for them. Stronger, healthier but less moose or packed stockyards ripe for the picking.

[horshur]

do you think that hunter effort numbers are legitimate during unprecidented new access? It amounts to mining moose. This is how they missed the turn.

[The Dude]

So much anecdotal information being thrown around in this thread.

I heard that's not true. ;-)

[snakeplain]

BAN all guide and outfitters, all Riverboats and neuter the wolf pack leaders like the government did in Region 5, this would be a good start in trying to save the ungulates!!!

[GoatGuy]

To identify the causes you need to focus on the moose. For the hunters mind you can probably look at it this way:

1. Are calves being born?
2. Are they being born at the right time?
3. Are a sufficient number making it to their first birthday?
4. What is adult mortality?

From there you'll figure out your causes.

[steel_ram]

It could never be human predators. No, No, No. It's gotta be the wolves or something else. LOL

[Husky7mm]

It is unlikely that limited habitat is an issue so if they really want to increase the moose population to a happy level than they need to stop culling moose prior to reproduction. Add in throwing everything we can at the predators I am sure the population will increase.
I am sure even with " low hunter numbers" as we are constantly told, that efficiency has gone up do to access paired with how easy it is to get good info(internet).....
IMO restrictions are for everyones own good. If EVERYONE went around shooting every legal animal that they demanded to be legal and available, it would COLLAPSE the GOS system!
IIRC Mathamaticly the Omineca Model showed with all factors that it put the population in a very slow constant decline.

[junkyard_g]

The big beetle push is starting to wind down. once all these cutblocks start growing back up you'll get more cover and forage, access will decrease, and well as sightlines. Moose should rebound then but we'll be in for a tough few few years in the meantime. I hate the idea of closing down a season that gives hunters a chance of being involved in a moose hunt with buddies who have an leh. I'd be ok with a trophy season like up north in 7a until the numbers rebound to atleast let non leh holders have a chance at a moose. not many people are adressing what to do with region 5 on here where there is no calf season though?

[Kirby]

Every year this thread starts up and every year people quote and use some wing nut biologists theories on calf mortality. The more calves you kill in the fall the less their will be in the spring, plain and simple!!!. Use some common sense people! you are not only killing the calves that are going to die anyways. IF you have 12 calves and half of them are going to die naturally(starvation,predation, etc) you are left with 6. If you shoot 4 of those moose you are not left with 6 in the fall. The laws of chance say that if you kill 4, 2 of them will be from the half that would survive and 2 would be from the half that will die naturally. You are now left with 4 NOT 6!!!!!!


I could not agree with this more...I have asked several biologists about this very thing and every one has given kind of a blank look and more or less replied with the same canned statement of "most calves are going to die over winter anyways"
Seems like people simply quoting what they were told in university or from a paper rather than comparing it to practical math.

Lots of people don't get this, problably one of hte hardest things for people to get.

PM me your phone number. We'll have a chat about compensatory vs additive harvest

[Duidery]

I'll admit, I'm one of the many that don't get the whole compensatory vs additive harvest thing. Since so many of us don't get it, could you please enlighten us?

[Husky7mm]

I'd rather healthy cows survive. Only so much winter forage to go around, especially at calf level. Do you really think saturating the wintering area's in "redundant" calves is going to help ensure more will survive the winter? The only neg. is that the wolves will be pulling down mature animals instead of calves.

There is no way this is a carrying capacity issue.
For sure it is most likely the cow will survive easier than the calf, but if we are gonna add hunting mix in the we are gonna have to find a way to make more moose.... hmmm I dont know, someone much wiser will have to figure this one out......

[Tenacious Billy]

I'll admit, I'm one of the many that don't get the whole compensatory vs additive harvest thing. Since so many of us don't get it, could you please enlighten us?

Me too..........

[trapperRick]

Lots of factors why numbers are down many of which we puny humans will never understand only mother nature. But many good points made on this thread
1. Access with all the logging more roads for hunters and predators to use
2. Line of sight with all the open area's you can see more and longer shots can be made
3. Don't like the calf season or cow season
4. More LEH draws for bulls but make it for any bull and then no open season for imature bulls
Don't agree to shoot all wolf, can't blame just them, they are part of nature and should be there
Anyway just my 2 cents

[Kirby]

I'll admit, I'm one of the many that don't get the whole compensatory vs additive harvest thing. Since so many of us don't get it, could you please enlighten us?

I've tried to type it out several times its really long winded and alot of typing to get it out and then questions about specific conditions etc I don't have time for it. Easier to do it on the phone. I've got a 10 dollar long distance phone card that I never use and is about to expire so PM me your number and I'll call you too.

Maybe one day I'll sit down and write it out but if people want to look into it they can go and do some back ground reading, just google it and start reading.

[Kirby]

3. Don't like the calf season or cow season



Just cause you "don't like it" doesn't mean it had anything to do with the decrease in population.

[308Lover]

Region 7A was logged extensively, and at a faster rate, due to the pine beetle kill. Anyone who as walked a clear cut (and I have walked thousands in my life) and has seen the effects of spraying and deforestation is a lunatic to think there is lots of food in these barren cuts. Some have virtually no live willow or alders for winter food. None have cover for bedding or hiding from predators. Cow/calf seasons are a joke. A large group of hunters can wipe out the entire breeding nucleus in a small valley--and the cows don't come back to raise calves there either. In the 1960's logging near FT. St. James left some of the original trees for "natural reseeding" and for wildlife management. No effort was made to eradicate "pests" like alder, willow and polplar. Moose thrived there in the winter and we hunted them until DEC. 7th back then.
Recently,I witnessed a cow/calf pair one winter wandering through a huge maze of alder, the cow tasting and not staying, until they ended up in the ditch beside a road where they devoured alders right down to the thickness of your thumb. They were starving. You think the alders in the cutblock were sprayed ? YOu betcha. Cows should never be harvested unless a surplus exists (not likely) and calves never! A member on this site who attends meetings in Victoria regarding wildlife management tells me that MONEY is a big issue. They sell as many tags as possible for as many dreamed-up reasons because it is a cash cow. We spend millions on our hunting/fishing in BC. Closing any part of a season(calves included) is bad for the economy, they say. Especially driving from VanIsle to PG and spending all the way.
You won't believe this but back in the day THEY ACTUALLY CLOSED SOME ZONES TO HUNTING TO GIVE THE GAME A BREEDING AREA AND TO RECOVER THEIR POPULATIONS!
Stop the Region 7A(Omineca) cow/calf season (LEH too). As for the rest of BC---good luck!

[GoatGuy]

Lots of factors why numbers are down many of which we puny humans will never understand only mother nature. But many good points made on this thread
1. Access with all the logging more roads for hunters and predators to use
2. Line of sight with all the open area's you can see more and longer shots can be made
3. Don't like the calf season or cow season
4. More LEH draws for bulls but make it for any bull and then no open season for imature bulls
Don't agree to shoot all wolf, can't blame just them, they are part of nature and should be there
Anyway just my 2 cents

Seems to be a pretty common sentiment in this thread, although, generally 180 degrees out from reality.

[GoatGuy]

Region 7A was logged extensively, and at a faster rate, due to the pine beetle kill. Anyone who as walked a clear cut (and I have walked thousands in my life) and has seen the effects of spraying and deforestation is a lunatic to think there is lots of food in these barren cuts. Some have virtually no live willow or alders for winter food. None have cover for bedding or hiding from predators. Cow/calf seasons are a joke. A large group of hunters can wipe out the entire breeding nucleus in a small valley--and the cows don't come back to raise calves there either. In the 1960's logging near FT. St. James left some of the original trees for "natural reseeding" and for wildlife management. No effort was made to eradicate "pests" like alder, willow and polplar. Moose thrived there in the winter and we hunted them until DEC. 7th back then.
Recently,I witnessed a cow/calf pair one winter wandering through a huge maze of alder, the cow tasting and not staying, until they ended up in the ditch beside a road where they devoured alders right down to the thickness of your thumb. They were starving. You think the alders in the cutblock were sprayed ? YOu betcha. Cows should never be harvested unless a surplus exists (not likely) and calves never! A member on this site who attends meetings in Victoria regarding wildlife management tells me that MONEY is a big issue. They sell as many tags as possible for as many dreamed-up reasons because it is a cash cow. We spend millions on our hunting/fishing in BC. Closing any part of a season(calves included) is bad for the economy, they say. Especially driving from VanIsle to PG and spending all the way.
You won't believe this but back in the day THEY ACTUALLY CLOSED SOME ZONES TO HUNTING TO GIVE THE GAME A BREEDING AREA AND TO RECOVER THEIR POPULATIONS!
Stop the Region 7A(Omineca) cow/calf season (LEH too). As for the rest of BC---good luck!

They used to have islands and refugia for wildlife back when there was GOS for cows and bulls. Wildlife management was in its infancy and the science of how/when and how many was required was evolving. That is the same era as when Mr.Child's was a bio.

Today we a strong foundation to stand on that has established target ratios that ensure all of the metrics required for an increasing population are met through REGULATED hunting.

IF the population declines, it is typically not because of regulated hunting.

I'm only going to repeat this one last time: This decline happened in a couple years, for a harvest regime that never had a blip and is 30 years old. Quads were invented decades ago, there have been heavily roaded areas in that Region where moose did extremely well until a couple of years ago. MUs in Regions 5 and 6 which butt up to 7a, have bull only harvest (LEH only in Region 5) have also seen extreme declines in the last couple years.

Someone needs to explain to me how the management regime is the problem and how bull only harvest through LEH will fix that when the neighbouring regions have the same problems with declining moose and a bull only harvest?

Figure it out folks. Engage the thinking cap - it only works if used.

[kgriz]

Seems to me that there is quite a bit of "blame" being put on all of the harvesting.....its not like the forest companies can just harvest all that they want willy nilly, ALL of the agencies including the MOE get a kick at the can at the Forest Stewardship Plan stage as well as the LRMP stage....most of the time the levels of harvest and all of its impacts get truly decided at a political level.....what this means is that sometimes things are not done at a "real" sustainable level so that you can have money in your jeans to pay for your families groceries by working at a Mill, grocery store, gas station etc.
I'm sure that all of the various scientists and professionals are listenned to by the policy makers and politicians in other resources ( heavy sarcasm )....maybe in happy naivity land....

[junkyard_g]

x2. well put.

[whitebirch]

They used to have islands and refugia for wildlife back when there was GOS for cows and bulls. Wildlife management was in its infancy and the science of how/when and how many was required was evolving. That is the same era as when Mr.Child's was a bio.

Today we a strong foundation to stand on that has established target ratios that ensure all of the metrics required for an increasing population are met through REGULATED hunting.

IF the population declines, it is typically not because of regulated hunting.

I'm only going to repeat this one last time: This decline happened in a couple years, for a harvest regime that never had a blip and is 30 years old. Quads were invented decades ago, there have been heavily roaded areas in that Region where moose did extremely well until a couple of years ago. MUs in Regions 5 and 6 which butt up to 7a, have bull only harvest (LEH only in Region 5) have also seen extreme declines in the last couple years.

Someone needs to explain to me how the management regime is the problem and how bull only harvest through LEH will fix that when the neighbouring regions have the same problems with declining moose and a bull only harvest?

Figure it out folks. Engage the thinking cap - it only works if used.

Figure its related to predation, then?

[kgriz]

As for getting a phone call for some teaching, I appreciate your dedication but don't mistake my personal and often jaded opinions for my formal education....I took a lot of classes in university that any Bio would take; however, I did go to school quite a while ago...long enough to see that many things taught just 15-20 years ago were sometimes misguided....funny they made a lot of sense while I was learning them. What we were looking at may or may not be included in that category...I don't have time to check....I'm going white-tail hunting, lots of them around....as for the moose, I'm sure that the experts will figure it out.

[kgriz]

Oh and trust me, I wouldn't want the job of figuring this one out because even if a scientific answer is found....it will almost certainly get over-ridden if it doesn't fit with economic agenda..sadly its the state of the world these days. My only actual beef with the management as a whole with all kidding aside is the level of micromanagment often employed ie. so many MU's with often very different regs even though they are adjacent and the polarization between the regions. ie explanation of why Region 7B has the big bull style vs 7A immature etc. Surely the regions could get together a little better to help spread the hunters out a bit too...maybe put something really juicy available in another region during 7A calf season to spread hunters out a bit provincially etc.

[kgriz]

something like...if you don't buy a moose tag, your bison odds get doubled the next year...I don't know.
Wait, I guess that would probably require the licences and tags to be available online....:? I'm sure that will get here sooner or later

[kootenayelkslayer]

There are a lot of unknowns, and a lot of theories floating around everywhere. I believe the decline is probably associated with several factors. My opinion is that landscape change and predation are the two major players. There are unprecedented levels of landscape change occurring, like we've never seen before. Safe to say that no one really knows the effects that such drastic changes, like the pine beetle salvage, may have. Not only do the landscape disturbances have immediate, direct impacts, there are many possible cumulative, incremental impacts that are just now starting to set in. Initially, I believe all the beetle kill harvest created moose habitat, which caused a significant increase in the moose populations, but now it looks like they are coming back down to earth, so to speak.

One thing that has been mentioned here a few times that I really think is having an effect is the herbicide spraying. I see a lot of clearcuts that use to be full of willow and other browse, but have been sprayed and are now devoid of food. Also, a lot of the clearcuts that were prime habitat earlier are now at an age where they are no longer ideal for moose.

It's easy to blame wolves, and I agree that it seems like they are having a bigger a impact these days, but I don't know that anyone has really quantified the amount of mortality they are causing. So it's all a theory at this point.

It's my opinion that the current hunting regulations are fine for maintaining moose populations, but are not necessarily made to allow for populations to increase. If the moose truly are in trouble, then maybe it is time to tweak the regs slightly.

[kgriz]

There is virtually no spraying employed in Ft.St. James....moose numbers or at least sightings suck there too...
Also, the spraying is mostly a short-term strategy employed to meet the free-to-grow status and then the brush comes back....if it doesn't come back its probably that it has been outcompeted by the crop trees and this would have happenned shortly anyways....just not quick enough to meet the legal free-to-grow timelines.Also all spraying gets wrongly lumped together....spraying by helicopter with a chemical that is non-selective is mostly what is complained about.....manual back-pack spraying can be very selective-ie target the competing veg which usually is not red osier dogwood and willow ( mostly aspen), ie moose food left and crop trees released but it is way more expensive....how much more do you want to pay for your lumber for your house?

[GoatGuy]

There are a lot of unknowns, and a lot of theories floating around everywhere. I believe the decline is probably associated with several factors. My opinion is that landscape change and predation are the two major players. There are unprecedented levels of landscape change occurring, like we've never seen before. Safe to say that no one really knows the effects that such drastic changes, like the pine beetle salvage, may have. Not only do the landscape disturbances have immediate, direct impacts, there are many possible cumulative, incremental impacts that are just now starting to set in. Initially, I believe all the beetle kill harvest created moose habitat, which caused a significant increase in the moose populations, but now it looks like they are coming back down to earth, so to speak.

One thing that has been mentioned here a few times that I really think is having an effect is the herbicide spraying. I see a lot of clearcuts that use to be full of willow and other browse, but have been sprayed and are now devoid of food. Also, a lot of the clearcuts that were prime habitat earlier are now at an age where they are no longer ideal for moose.

It's easy to blame wolves, and I agree that it seems like they are having a bigger a impact these days, but I don't know that anyone has really quantified the amount of mortality they are causing. So it's all a theory at this point.

It's my opinion that the current hunting regulations are fine for maintaining moose populations, but are not necessarily made to allow for populations to increase. If the moose truly are in trouble, then maybe it is time to tweak the regs slightly.

The research coming out on wolves and access, particularly in the case of caribou, is starting to show wolves are no different than people. Roads, gas lines and cutblocks make them far more efficient. Hebblewhite's research on caribou is definitely an eye opener.

Put a large network of roads/cutblocks in and they will find and kill more prey. We haven't had logging at what is really the landscape level in decades and when we did we had things like strychnine and 1080 in full effect. The black-tailed deer population crash on VI has all the same issues and the problem was identified. The ensuing experiment is still to date the only bit of research that shows wolves are artificially holding a deer population at a low level due to widescale logging and that it can be mediated by wolf management.

The GPS data on the collared wolves (what we have now anyways) seems to back this up. (Oddly, it seems there are lots of people who claim to have seen it, how I don't know?). They road hunt better than Fisher-Dude and hit the same spots again and again.


The concept of habitat is two-fold. Cutblocks make food, but don't meet the anti-predator strategies, like a burn or heavy vegetation does. With high quality habitat, like a burn, I don't think predation is really ever a problem for species like moose, elk, deer.

These declines are being realized in other MUs where there is no regulated cow/calf harvest and inventory work (when conducted in accordance to RISC standards) is showing bull:cow ratios in excess of 50:100.

We could probably close all hunting and the population would still have all the glide properties of a lawn dart, and it would still leave us with this problem. People need to turn their minds to that if we're going to work on a solution. We need money to establish the causes and fix them.

They changed the hunting regulations on Vancouver Island decades ago and the deer population and harvest is still in the gutter. Removing hunting won't solve the problem.

[GoatGuy]

Oh and trust me, I wouldn't want the job of figuring this one out because even if a scientific answer is found....it will almost certainly get over-ridden if it doesn't fit with economic agenda..sadly its the state of the world these days. My only actual beef with the management as a whole with all kidding aside is the level of micromanagment often employed ie. so many MU's with often very different regs even though they are adjacent and the polarization between the regions. ie explanation of why Region 7B has the big bull style vs 7A immature etc. Surely the regions could get together a little better to help spread the hunters out a bit too...maybe put something really juicy available in another region during 7A calf season to spread hunters out a bit provincially etc.

Let me put this in to perspective for you:

Next year Region 8 will have more hunters go there than 7a and it is probably 1/4 the size.

Spread out the hunters, right.

[kootenayelkslayer]

There is virtually no spraying employed in Ft.St. James....moose numbers or at least sightings suck there too...


spraying by helicopter with a chemical that is non-selective is mostly what is complained about.....manual back-pack spraying can be very selective-ie target the competing veg which usually is not red osier dogwood and willow ( mostly aspen)
Well like I said, many theories floating around, that is one of mine. And someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but around PG anyways it seems like most of the spraying is done by helicopter.

There are so many factors that could be involved, it would be very tough to come up with one answer. Trying to put together a study that could include all the potential factors would be near impossible. But hopefully people can start implementing some studies that can start picking away at some of the issues.



Put a large network of roads/cutblocks in and they will find and kill more prey. We haven't had logging at what is really the landscape level in decades and when we did we had things like strychnine and 1080 in full effect. The black-tailed deer population crash on VI has all the same issues and the problem was identified. The ensuing experiment is still to date the only bit of research that shows wolves are artificially holding a deer population at a low level due to widescale logging and that it can be mediated by wolf management.

My friend is looking at trying to quantify the amount of barren-ground caribou that wolves are actually killing in the NWT as his Master's project. It would be cool if they tried something similar for the moose and wolves in central-BC.

[kgriz]

I agree its complex....7B has all of the factores we've listed:

-lots of cleared land-much agricultural
-lots of snow
-lots of coyotes and wolves
-lots of cutblocks
-lots of spraying
-lots of elk and white-tail (at least as compared to PG)
-tons of hunters esp. during the early moose seasons

But it also has tons of moose, go there you'll see way more

[kgriz]

7B chetwynd/Dawson/Ft. St John etc. I mean

[horshur]

Goat did you see this coming????????

[kootenayelkslayer]

I agree its complex....7B has all of the factores we've listed:

-lots of cleared land-much agricultural
-lots of snow
-lots of coyotes and wolves
-lots of cutblocks
-lots of spraying
-lots of elk and white-tail (at least as compared to PG)
-tons of hunters esp. during the early moose seasons

But it also has tons of moose, go there you'll see way more

That is true. But the landscape, climate, etc. is different in the Peace compared to the Omineca. So we have to be cautious when comparing regions.

[GoatGuy]

I agree its complex....7B has all of the factores we've listed:

-lots of cleared land-much agricultural
-lots of snow
-lots of coyotes and wolves
-lots of cutblocks
-lots of spraying
-lots of elk and white-tail (at least as compared to PG)
-tons of hunters esp. during the early moose seasons

But it also has tons of moose, go there you'll see way more

So we're going to compare agricultural fields with a predator control program for cattle, in a rain shadow, to clearcuts in a relatively wet belt particluarly in the northern end.

This isn't even close to reality.

[kgriz]

I am aware that comparisons need caution...but there seems to be some historical differences of opinion of moose management between the two....if the methods from 7A are so obviously world-leading, why would they not be employed in 7B?

[GoatGuy]

Goat did you see this coming????????

No, the last time they did inventory things looked good, particularly in the southern part of 7a.

This happened in a relatively short period.

[GoatGuy]

I am aware that comparisons need caution...but there seems to be some historical differences of opinion of moose management between the two....if the methods from 7A are so obviously world-leading, why would they not be employed in 7B?

Harvest strategy was required to shift the harvest, which was too high at the time, off breeding bulls in 7a. Ratios in the Peace are generally well within limits and in the majority of the region an any bull GOS would be sustainable for the duration.

Access, pressure, abundance, politics.

6000 hunters in 7b
11000 in 7a.

Lots of horse trails, fly-in lakes, river boats, few cutblocks and lots of ag land in 7b.

Lots cutblocks and roads, few fly-ins and horse trails, river boats in 7a.

[kgriz]

Seems to me that the climate in regions like 5 would be similarly dry with less snow etc.....but not really the point.
Going on and on about the science or being annoyed that people "just don't get it" is a bit laughable.....Nobody ever wants to admit in any resource use that money usually has the final say..that and personal agendas.
If there is lots of moose in 7B go hunt them there....take the people out of the equation and the cutblocks will grow up and the wolf/prey cycle will balance out in its own time...just not a handy time period for us.

[kgriz]

"Lots of horse trails, fly-in lakes, river boats, few cutblocks and lots of ag land in 7b.

Lots cutblocks and roads, few fly-ins and horse trails, river boats in 7a."

This suggests that access is mainly the problem.....wow I hope that if its access that is to be targetted they limit ALL access....actually I guess that means that I'd rather see it go LEH and make it finacially fair for everyone vs hobby farmers/cattlemen etc have the run of the place with horses....I don't and I'm sure most don't have the means to buy:

-horses and tack
-feed and/or land
-big truck and fuel

Just to shoot a moose

[ThinAir]

Surely the old model for moose management in 7a will have to be tweaked, now that we have 50% less moose?

I can't see how cow/calf seasons can continue while we know "something" is wrong. Wolves are to political to expect any major changes in that department....
I would rather pull back the reigns on our moose hunting opportunity today, if it could/would help for tomorrow.

I know there isn't just one easy solution... but it seems to me that what worked for the last 30 years( with 50% more moose) might not be the way anymore.

[GoatGuy]

Seems to me that the climate in regions like 5 would be similarly dry with less snow etc.....but not really the point.
Going on and on about the science or being annoyed that people "just don't get it" is a bit laughable.....Nobody ever wants to admit in any resource use that money usually has the final say..that and personal agendas.
If there is lots of moose in 7B go hunt them there....take the people out of the equation and the cutblocks will grow up and the wolf/prey cycle will balance out in its own time...just not a handy time period for us.

With roads, cutblocks, highways, dams, wildlife fencing..... just people in general there is no such thing as the wolf/prey cycle and 'balance'. It plain and simply doesn't exist.

With that approach I can guarantee we will lose all caribou hunting, and most of the caribou across BC in the next 30 years.

[GoatGuy]

"Lots of horse trails, fly-in lakes, river boats, few cutblocks and lots of ag land in 7b.

Lots cutblocks and roads, few fly-ins and horse trails, river boats in 7a."

This suggests that access is mainly the problem.....wow I hope that if its access that is to be targetted they limit ALL access....actually I guess that means that I'd rather see it go LEH and make it finacially fair for everyone vs hobby farmers/cattlemen etc have the run of the place with horses....I don't and I'm sure most don't have the means to buy:

-horses and tack
-feed and/or land
-big truck and fuel

Just to shoot a moose

To control the hunter harvest. We're going in circles now.

[GoatGuy]

Sure, axe the cow LEH, axe the calf season. Doubt it will make a significant difference.

As said before, a couple times, the surrounding Regions that have seen the same kinds of declines have bull only seasons and bull only LEH and they have the declines.

[kgriz]

So you don't want to change the cow LEH of calf season, or go to overall LEH which would basically be the same as restricting access except perhaps more fair ( ie less animals killed)...what should be done then?
Nothing I guess....which has got us here or a wolf kill that is not politically possible perhaps...Am I missing something? I suppose we could just blame the changing landscape and hope it improves.

[GoatGuy]

So you don't want to change the cow LEH of calf season, or go to overall LEH which would basically be the same as restricting access except perhaps more fair ( ie less animals killed)...what should be done then?
Nothing I guess....which has got us here or a wolf kill that is not politically possible perhaps...Am I missing something? I suppose we could just blame the changing landscape and hope it improves.

Manage wolves to a target population, ensure unregulated hunting harvest is reported, and regulated harvest is sustainable and you will have lots of moose.

We're seeing what sitting on hands will do. Apathy's a killer.

[kgriz]

Well under that thought I'm doing my part, black bears, griz, wolves and coyotes get it whenever I have the chance.....as for "unregulated harvest" well thats a whole other rant....
I think there would be a lot less unregulated harvest if the regs were a little broader such that you don't need the BC rec atlas, hunting synopsis and/or an iphone with huntbuddy, good binos and spotter and a gps to make sure that you are in the right spot shooting the right thing.:confused: I carry all of that crap but most of the 11000 hunters I meet in 7A are lucky even to have the regs..maybe we should embrace this fact a bit and try to make the rules a little more user friendly rather than "hire more CO's" which might not be needed if it were easier to ID shootable animals for the "casual hunter".

[billjc33]

Compensatory vs Additive harvest IS A HUGE CROCK OF BS!!! This whole theory was based on some biologists jibber jabber that never made sense in the first place. The only arguement in the whole study is that starvation is the end all be all of all animal survival. Starvation is a non issue for moose in our present environment. The amount of red willow established in our bush has eliminated the winter starvation. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE stop believing something you learned 20 years ago from a non-credible source!

[jml11]

Well like I said, many theories floating around, that is one of mine. And someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but around PG anyways it seems like most of the spraying is done by helicopter.



On the plateau it is primarily heli but in mountains and selective cuts it is primarily manual brushing and/or backpack spraying, both of which are selective. In the omineca all the forest licensees have Pest Management Plans which are reviewed by the Ministry of Environment and various other stakeholders, including first nations. There is only one licensee that routinely completes pre-treatment wildlife habitat assessments on proposed treatment blocks where a biologist like myself is given an opportunity to walk the cutblock prior to treatment and provide recommendations on type of treatment (heli vs backpack vs brush) and areas to treat or not treat. There are conditions that trigger a field visit, which is generally area based (I.e. if <100 ha over the landscape is to be treated no assessment is done) or if the target vegetation is dominated by Aspen no assessment may be done, which is pretty common in our region. From my experience doing these assessment there is generally minimal high value woody browse in the blocks (obviously some areas have lots) and when it is present it is concentrated around riparian features, as you would expect. The pesticide application regulations have legislated buffer zones around all riparian features and block edges which will allow those higher value areas to be retained. Further to this, herbicide treatment is a short term impact, the browse species generally rebound pretty quickly and I would be surprised if this was a limiting factor to winter survival.

Prior to MPB harvesting, logging was more spread out and you ended up with multi-aged stands over the landscape which also meant the herbicide treatment year to year was spread out, decreasing the overall impact. With MPB logging, there is an over abundance of 'young' and large cutblocks close together (an attempt to mimic natural fire disturbance) which will mean a potential for an increase in herbicide treatment in a smaller area than we used to see. And this may put a strain on over-wintering food availability (???).

I've certainly noticed a decrease in moose numbers in heavily logged areas, which as you also indicated could be a result of a number of factors including increased access, increased predation due to access, lack of winter browse, and an overall loss of habitat (i.e. the moose simply moved out). My observations are small scale, generally specific areas I used to hunt (10's of sq. km). There are areas northwest of PG that have young blocks (<10 years) butted up against each other for kilometers with very little mature tree retention in the area in an effort to salvage the trees before they fall over (MPB salvage logging). While these areas do provide some moose habitat, it is only a part of their habitat requirements and given it extends for kilometers in every direction, the moose use in these areas is minimal at best, in my observations anyways. I saw the most sign and more actual moose on fringe areas where mature forest was still dominant. I am of the opinion that available thermal cover is critical to moose and these heavily logged MPB areas simply don't have much it which may be a limiting factor to moose densities in specific areas. To throw a wrench into some of that logic...northeast and east of PG has had very little logging over the past 10 years and is mostly spruce-balsam forest, no MPB salvage logging and a relatively small (active) road network, but yet the moose numbers out there are down as well...or are they just hiding in the thick stuff??...again this is just one guys opinion..

Interestingly enough, I know a lot of locals who have had a great moose hunting season up here. So far every one I know filled their Bull LEH tags, some with very little effort needed. Often multiple bulls were seen. While most are aware of the reported decline, many in my network don't believe the 'numbers' based on their sightings this year and figure the reported decline is a result of a bad count...or perhaps they are hoping that is the case...

[kgriz]

Agree with almost all of the herbicide comments..obviouosly someone with actual experience....as for the large logged areas...aspen is usually the target species for spraying and it usually grows in clones/patches around PG and this is how it is targetted. ...the stuff around the clones isn't sprayed if operationally possible

[kgriz]

I also agree with the idea of moose hiding in the thick stuff...how moose have been hunted over the last 50 years has really changed....
I do most of my hunting with my 76 year old uncle who has been an avid hunter his whole life...all of his older stories from the 60's to the 80's involve him hunting moose or caribou for that matter, in the timber...its only in the last 15-20 years that him ( and me ) have switched to the cutblocks because thats where the moose moved to.....Now they seem to have moved again....or at least many of them as shown by last winter..

same idea, most old friend who has been a trapper forever in the Bowron says how fewer moose there are down low in the traditionally winter spots but lo and behold when I ski-dooed up high ( higher than he ventures )to check out a lake there were moose everywhere. This idea is really evident in Ft st James where I've walked almost every square km of bush for work...lots of moose in the bush.....none out in the open. Same thing in the Blackwater..no moose in open.....still lots way back in remaining timber.

[jml11]

Agree with almost all of the herbicide comments..obviouosly someone with actual experience....as for the large logged areas...aspen is usually the target species for spraying and it usually grows in clones/patches around PG and this is how it is targetted. ...the stuff around the clones isn't sprayed if operationally possible

Another good point. The proposed herbicide treatment is based on an earlier silviculture survey looking at competition of woody brush on the crop trees. Often only parts of the block require treatment which is something we consider when making recommendations. Like we both indicated, in these parts the target is primarily aspen with alder being the next, both low value food sources for moose.

[kgriz]

I think that people especially trappers and hunters get a bad first impression of treated blocks because the remaining standing treated stems look very dead and by the time trapping and hunting season rolls around ( or University for that matter ie.Stop the Spray types) the underbrush that is alive is seasonally leafless and looks like it was treated too so the spraying becomes an all-killing specter....look at it the next spring and it will be mostly green underbrush ( some gets killed ) and dead targets.

[kootenayelkslayer]

I think that people especially trappers and hunters get a bad first impression of treated blocks because the remaining standing treated stems look very dead and by the time trapping and hunting season rolls around ( or University for that matter ie.Stop the Spray types) the underbrush that is alive is seasonally leafless and looks like it was treated too so the spraying becomes an all-killing specter....look at it the next spring and it will be mostly green underbrush ( some gets killed ) and dead targets.
No need to get hung up on the herbicide thing. I just mentioned it as a potential contributing factor... not necessarily the be-all end-all of the supposed moose decline.

You and JML bring up a good point about moose becoming timber-bound though, which could lead to inaccurate population estimates from surveys.

[kgriz]

I meant the timber thing more as a reference to hunters not seeing them..I suppose that it could also be a problem for counting them..I'm pretty sure that the counters target "somewhat known" wintering spots to count then extrapolate how much habitat there is and multiply type idea....if the moose are not in those areas at time of count, the counts would be way off. Maybe, but I certainly wouldn't want to make any recommendations based on this theory alone.

[elcazador]

I read another article about the topic. Many "experts" are citing the beetle kill, and logging of beetle infested areas as opening to much bush up, creating to much open area for moose to fall victim to predation and hunting.

Pit totally makes sense, their ecosystems are getting smaller, too many a open spaces etc.

[pete_k]

Could be the moose are doing jail time.
http://www.250news.com/blog/view/26203/1/moose+attacks+police+cruiser?

[GoatGuy]

Due to the sampling techniques and standards SRBs shouldn't 'miss moose' if done correctly. The folks in the omineca are top notch when it comes to inventory and modeling. Some of it will be repeated but I wouldn't expect a change.

Will refrain from commenting on the work that was done in region 5, suffice it so say we have to repeat it.

[kgriz]

I guess I would have to see the numbers pre 2005, ( date quoted in original PG newspaper )...could be that the 2005 were somewhat artificially high due to increased forage in the new cutblocks....mayber 50% of this high number is somewhat normal for the past 30 years....

kind of like this:

you make 50K/year from 2000-2010
then in 2011-2012 you recieve inheritances to boost you up to 100k/yr
then in 2013 you are back to 48k.....holy crap a 52K reduction.....not really....more like 2 K....still important but maybe not catastophic results that sells newspapers:?

[big game chaser]

Region 7A was logged extensively, and at a faster rate, due to the pine beetle kill. Anyone who as walked a clear cut (and I have walked thousands in my life) and has seen the effects of spraying and deforestation is a lunatic to think there is lots of food in these barren cuts. Some have virtually no live willow or alders for winter food. None have cover for bedding or hiding from predators. Cow/calf seasons are a joke. A large group of hunters can wipe out the entire breeding nucleus in a small valley--and the cows don't come back to raise calves there either. In the 1960's logging near FT. St. James left some of the original trees for "natural reseeding" and for wildlife management. No effort was made to eradicate "pests" like alder, willow and polplar. Moose thrived there in the winter and we hunted them until DEC. 7th back then.
Recently,I witnessed a cow/calf pair one winter wandering through a huge maze of alder, the cow tasting and not staying, until they ended up in the ditch beside a road where they devoured alders right down to the thickness of your thumb. They were starving. You think the alders in the cutblock were sprayed ? YOu betcha. Cows should never be harvested unless a surplus exists (not likely) and calves never! A member on this site who attends meetings in Victoria regarding wildlife management tells me that MONEY is a big issue. They sell as many tags as possible for as many dreamed-up reasons because it is a cash cow. We spend millions on our hunting/fishing in BC. Closing any part of a season(calves included) is bad for the economy, they say. Especially driving from VanIsle to PG and spending all the way.
You won't believe this but back in the day THEY ACTUALLY CLOSED SOME ZONES TO HUNTING TO GIVE THE GAME A BREEDING AREA AND TO RECOVER THEIR POPULATIONS!
Stop the Region 7A(Omineca) cow/calf season (LEH too). As for the rest of BC---good luck!

Exactly someone who actually knows the real deal ! gov dont give to shits ! no money for game management look how many game wardens we have per area!tell people what they want to hear about the numbers of moose that are still around!lol! blame it on the wolves lol! im in the bush everyday hardly ever see one! the gov wont do shit until there is a crisis like non left to shoot ! its all about the money braught in by hunting!

[gcreek]

Due to the sampling techniques and standards SRBs shouldn't 'miss moose' if done correctly. The folks in the omineca are top notch when it comes to inventory and modeling. Some of it will be repeated but I wouldn't expect a change.

Will refrain from commenting on the work that was done in region 5, suffice it so say we have to repeat it.


Why would you refrain from comment about region 5?

Giving out 30 more LEH's in 2012 than has been done for the past 10 years and this being nearly double the TOTAL moose counted by "experts" over 3 days using 2 helicopters and 1 fixed wing in 5-12B during Feb. 2012 makes complete sense to me.......... NOT.

[billjc33]

I can't speak for everyone in region 5 but we filled all our draws in record time with no shortage of moose! It was a warm fall and the moose were off the beaten path congregated around water. The road warriors were pretty jealous because you had to get out of your truck to get into the animals and if you weren't willing to do that your luck was pretty minimal.

[The Dude]

Moose hunters can leave trucks?? http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj313/Heliox18/Forum%20Ammo/jaw-drop.gif

Who holds their Timmies?

[Husky7mm]

Could be the moose are doing jail time.
http://www.250news.com/blog/view/26203/1/moose+attacks+police+cruiser?

I heard many of the moose have turned ghey, lots of mating but not allot of reproducing!:-D

[Husky7mm]

They used to have islands and refugia for wildlife back when there was GOS for cows and bulls. Wildlife management was in its infancy and the science of how/when and how many was required was evolving. That is the same era as when Mr.Child's was a bio.

Today we a strong foundation to stand on that has established target ratios that ensure all of the metrics required for an increasing population are met through REGULATED hunting.

IF the population declines, it is typically not because of regulated hunting.

I'm only going to repeat this one last time: This decline happened in a couple years, for a harvest regime that never had a blip and is 30 years old. Quads were invented decades ago, there have been heavily roaded areas in that Region where moose did extremely well until a couple of years ago. MUs in Regions 5 and 6 which butt up to 7a, have bull only harvest (LEH only in Region 5) have also seen extreme declines in the last couple years.

Someone needs to explain to me how the management regime is the problem and how bull only harvest through LEH will fix that when the neighbouring regions have the same problems with declining moose and a bull only harvest?

Figure it out folks. Engage the thinking cap - it only works if used.


What if 20-30 yrs from now they look back on this era and say what were we thinking? No real beef with it, Just saying.....

[Gateholio]

Seems like we should be hunting more black bears.

[drakfero]

hahaha , how about to change all the gov. people working there in Victoria? :) They have no idea how many pieces of each kind of animal we have. Like last estimate for the Mule deer I was reading was from 150 000 to 250 000.. 100 000 diffrence????? :))))))))) come on!!! Thats half of the population in this case.
We should stop cow & calf season - to get the numbers higher
Rewards for wolf kills - its not easy anyways (some special tag reward)
Send the resident hunting booklet to Victoria to get licence for another year - this would help to get more exact information , becouse not everybody is sending the questionaire back to them , but if you wanna hunt you will do that.
Control Native hunting - traditional hunting thru out the year (long bow hunting) and gun hunting in regular season

In my opinion nobody needs more game meat than one big game animal per hunter.

[drakfero]

I also forgot to mention - the way the forrestry is seeding the trees thats another nonsense. On some places its impossible for any kind of animal to walk in it , its good only for little birds..

[The Dude]

Sounds to me like you'll have to clip a bear tag before you are allowed to buy a Moose tag :D

[Elk-Aholic]

Sounds to me like you'll have to clip a bear tag before you are allowed to buy a Moose tag :D

Couldn't have said it better myself!

[junkyard_g]

If its difficult to walk thru then its due to dense natural regeneration of seedlings (usually pine in the central interior). In pine flat type area a normal target spacing for planting would about 3.1m, with a minimum spacing allowed of about 2m. Some areas with poor recruitment will allow for 1.6m spacing. Its a common misperception that those dog-hair pine stands were planted that way because the natural regen comes up at roughly the same time as the planted trees, just a hair slower.