Too many 5 point BU

[Wrayzer]

The seasonwe put a lot of effort into killing a local 6 point Bull, we did a fair amount of scouting, trail cams, hiking and exploring, we ventured areas that had great promise, wallows, feed, Thick Timber for cover, everything you would think Elk would converge to. We spent a few days in there with some sucessful responses from bulls, bringing one into 10 yards (video attatched), and pulling a few bulls into 40 yards on seperate occasions. Each of these times we thought this was it, we were going to conquor the 6 point Okanagan Elk....Only to get the count to 5. Everytime.
The last straw was a bugle match I had, pulled a 5 point 35 yards broadside, and had another bull and his harem sneak in behind me, bugle back and forth with the other bull infront of me, and the 5 point trotted off, almost intimidated. I got to within 30 yards of the other bull but couldnt get the count on him in the thicket.
I set my Trail camera up to get a look at this lead bull thinking he HAS to be larger than the last bull I got a visual on, only to check the camera and see he was a larger bull...but only had 5 tines, with 2 more bulls both with no more than 4 points each. Bringing the count to 5, 5 point bulls within our crew.

This has caused some frusteration in my elk hunting, kind of the way as a Elk hunter in the Okanagan. But it has raised some questions in regards to the herds and the genetic make up and anatomy of the growth of Elk Antlers.
With the large harvest of many 6 point bulls locally in the past few years in the area, I have discussed with partners that it could be a lack of "6 point Genetics", but is it possible that it is a genetic make up that factors into bulls breaking 5 points or 6?

- Is it a matter of time that all these young bulls, which could be offspring of many of the bulls taken in the past couple seasons, come into their prime and become lead bulls like the ones before them and push these current herd bulls out?

- These 5 points almost always seem to be missing their Royal, is this just a characteristic of a young bull? with his Royal being at the split, and with years growth, it'll branch and split again?

-If it actually comes down to a matter of "5 point genetics", as armchair Biologists that we all are, what actions could be taken in an area to allow the growth of these current young bulls to prosper into the 6's that are lacking in the area? LEH? 3 Point?

- Am i making too much of this and its just young herd with potential


Video, bull is seen at 20 seconds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HjeqkPHEPE

[Bc Deer Hunter]

Possible that there are lacking the essencial genes but if not your going to have a great spot come next year!!! Good luck the season is not closed yet!!!

[OutWest]

PM coming your way tonight, Geoff.

We've got a number of different 5 points on our many cams but there is certainly no shortage or legal bulls in 8.

[Ourea]

The seasonwe put a lot of effort into killing a local 6 point Bull, we did a fair amount of scouting, trail cams, hiking and exploring, we ventured areas that had great promise, wallows, feed, Thick Timber for cover, everything you would think Elk would converge to. We spent a few days in there with some sucessful responses from bulls, bringing one into 10 yards (video attatched), and pulling a few bulls into 40 yards on seperate occasions. Each of these times we thought this was it, we were going to conquor the 6 point Okanagan Elk....Only to get the count to 5. Everytime.
The last straw was a bugle match I had, pulled a 5 point 35 yards broadside, and had another bull and his harem sneak in behind me, bugle back and forth with the other bull infront of me, and the 5 point trotted off, almost intimidated. I got to within 30 yards of the other bull but couldnt get the count on him in the thicket.
I set my Trail camera up to get a look at this lead bull thinking he HAS to be larger than the last bull I got a visual on, only to check the camera and see he was a larger bull...but only had 5 tines, with 2 more bulls both with no more than 4 points each. Bringing the count to 5, 5 point bulls within our crew.

This has caused some frusteration in my elk hunting, kind of the way as a Elk hunter in the Okanagan. But it has raised some questions in regards to the herds and the genetic make up and anatomy of the growth of Elk Antlers.
With the large harvest of many 6 point bulls locally in the past few years in the area, I have discussed with partners that it could be a lack of "6 point Genetics", but is it possible that it is a genetic make up that factors into bulls breaking 5 points or 6?

- Is it a matter of time that all these young bulls, which could be offspring of many of the bulls taken in the past couple seasons, come into their prime and become lead bulls like the ones before them and push these current herd bulls out?

- These 5 points almost always seem to be missing their Royal, is this just a characteristic of a young bull? with his Royal being at the split, and with years growth, it'll branch and split again?

-If it actually comes down to a matter of "5 point genetics", as armchair Biologists that we all are, what actions could be taken in an area to allow the growth of these current young bulls to prosper into the 6's that are lacking in the area? LEH? 3 Point?

- Am i making too much of this and its just young herd with potential


Video, bull is seen at 20 seconds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HjeqkPHEPE

Wrayzer, there are no genetic issues "holding' bulls at five points. Having hunted okanagan elk HARD all my life I have gotten to know the herd quite well. We are on them year round. What I can tell you is this....
We enjoyed an augmentation of the herd post fire. I saw first hand the increase in reasonably mature bulls. Some decent bulls started to get killed as a result. Our tradional harvest of 6 - 8 bulls skyrocketed to 21 to 26 bulls a year for several years. Throw in the internet era, social networking, trail cams, Google earth and the likes, and anyone that owns a cell phone or can read the english language knew that the area was producing game. The fire created endless access as well. Areas that I hunted for over 2 decades, that I never saw a sole in, were getting boot tracks now. It was 2010 that I noticed the significant drop in the age class of the bulls. There were always a decent number of bulls in the 8+ year mark. Bulls that I would regularly pass on became more of an exception rather than the norm.
I am not complaining about it, just passing on information.

When we observe the bacholer groups in the winter you get a pretty good understanding of the age dynamics. The drop in 5 year old and up bulls was alarming in 2010. It was worse in 2011.....and is down right depressing now to the point I have zero motivation to hunt Ok elk because I know what I am looking for is not there. You can't kill close to 100 6 point bulls out of a relatively small herd in 4 years and think that some impact won't be felt. We are on the back side of the curve now. A good portion of the 6 point population was getting killed every year. Simple as that. I don't blindly throw out these statements. Thousands of trail cam pics and video every year coupled with year round days in the field gives you some well quantified insight to what is going on with our herd. There are still a decent number of bulls that roll into 6 points each year so there still is opportunity.

If you want to kill an Ok elk, I can tell you from a couple decades of hard core elk hunting experience, this is the week.
Here I am writing about it and getting my gear organized to leave for the west kootenays tomorrow.
That should tell you something right there.

The Ok elk's genetics are doing just fine (we could use some better beam length though, LOL!).
You are experiencing the effects of a dramatic spike in harvest rates and hunting pressure. Keep up your efforts and enthusiasm and you will find the legal bull that you are hoping for. Don't be discouraged or think it is a problem with the bulls themselves.

[snareman1234]

To begin with..That bull may be a 5, but if you think it's poor genetics you are mistaken. How old do you think that bull is? Not too old. You are hunting elk in a herd that has high pressure, and bulls arent growing old, and videos that help people pinpoint where you are will just reduce your chances further.

[.300WSMImpact!]

PM coming your way tonight, Geoff.

We've got a number of different 5 points on our many cams but there is certainly no shortage or legal bulls in 8.


I am glad you say that we were getting a bit discouraged

[Wrayzer]

Ourea, great input, much respect to a guy I know has spent many years tracking and harvesting these animals. The "Late for the prom" mentality isnt too far off when hunting the herd in that spot.
One plus to the fire and growth of the herd is the opportnity away from the fire area, to be able to chase bulls away from the highest pressured elk spot in the region. Some areas they really have adapted and are thriving.



To begin with..That bull may be a 5, but if you think it's poor genetics you are mistaken. How old do you think that bull is? Not too old. You are hunting elk in a herd that has high pressure, and bulls arent growing old, and videos that help people pinpoint where you are will just reduce your chances further.
I know that bull is a young one, may not be the best example to show, he has many years to grow, unfortunatly/fortuntly (for someone) he wont get to his full potential in this spot. Guys can pin point it all they want, yes it is a high pressure area, but it is a spot we only spent a day in. The herds expanded, better action with bigger bulls has been away from here.

[300H&H]

Ourea had some very good input, thanks.

Some times a 5 point can be the dominant herd bull and not a 6 point.

With that said keep going you should get one.

Good luck to your group.

[Jonas111]

I can't wait until my kids get a little older and I can get out there and help you guys. I think you guys are so close.

Maybe we should take Ourea for lunch one day, :wink:

Or find someone that can spend a week with us in the EK. We could camp a week there and hunt full time. Right now I'm dreaming with my young family. Lol.

[drewsky]

I've got 4 different 6 pnts. on the cam this year, 1 beaut, but still searching! Come close a few times, but they are like giant whitetail! So darn sneaky. We've been busted by bulls a couple years in a row now! Not over yet!!!!!!

[markm7]

Oh just stop your whining wrayzer, I'll just have to come back next year and take one with bow

[capper911]

Wrayzer.....I'm glad i'm not the only one dealing with this frustration of only seeing 5 poiunt bulls! I've been into the elk lot's this season, only to find out that he's a 5!! One heard bull this past saturday was with 6 cows and a 2 point bull, spent the day getting close only to count 5 points!!! That being said though, it was a really cool experience as I got to see these 2 bulls do some sparring and rake the sh*t outta some trees!!

[GoatGuy]

If you're only finding 5 pts, maybe consider switching spots. Just like most species youll find more age in places with fewer hunters. Lots of guys getting 6 pts and lots of 6 pts on t-cams. Oddly enough, most of the time it's the same guys year after year.

If you want more 6 pts in the burn you could close all the roads or go to leh. The third subtle hint would be for people not to send their pics across the country, but it is what it is. It's been interesting to watch and hear all the complaining when guys send pics all over and then complain about age coming down and hunters going up.

if you want a region 8 bull my first choice would be 8-15.... Just saying.

[OutWest]

If you're only finding 5 pts, maybe consider switching spots. Just like most species youll find more age in places with fewer hunters. Lots of guys getting 6 pts and lots of 6 pts on t-cams. Oddly enough, most of the time it's the same guys year after year.

If you want more 6 pts in the burn you could close all the roads or go to leh. The third subtle hint would be for people not to send their pics across the country, but it is what it is. It's been interesting to watch and hear all the complaining when guys send pics all over and then complain about age coming down and hunters going up.

if you want a region 8 bull my first choice would be 8-15.... Just saying.

The same can be said for a hunting show airing a beautiful 6x6 bull and 194' typical muley being harvested. It's going to spike peoples interest in an already high pressure area, but it is what it is.

[GoatGuy]

The same can be said for a hunting show airing a beautiful 6x6 bull and 194' typical muley being harvested. It's going to spike peoples interest in an already high pressure area, but it is what it is.

very true.

[bassplayer]

My wife has only had 3 legal 6 pointers brought in this year from 8-09 compared to last year when they had over 10 brought in by this time. That's not to mention the ones that have been taken and not brought to her store and there's only 2 of those that i've heard off.

[Ambush]

My brother-in-law farmed elk, whitetail and bison for a number of years. Like other animals, you can selectively breed for certain physical traits, like body size and antler configuration.

If you selectively breed five points bulls to cows sired by five point bulls, you'll likely get five point bulls. A mature five point bull will win breeding rights from a young [though possibly superior] six point. That six point will now become a satellite bull and will likely get shot by someone who would rather have the mature five, but is forced by regulation, to take the young six.

Want more mature six point bulls? Pressure the regulators to include five points in the harvest. The average guy gets to shoot more elk and the selective hunter has more six points reaching maturity.

Sperm sales from "superior" antlered animals drives a now massive industry in NA and we can easily allow some of this knowledge to enhance our wild herds, naturally.

How often, on here, do you hear someone comment when a very good buck or bull is taken; "...hope he had a chance to spread his genes around!" So give him the chance.

[Wrayzer]

If you're only finding 5 pts, maybe consider switching spots. Just like most species youll find more age in places with fewer hunters. Lots of guys getting 6 pts and lots of 6 pts on t-cams. Oddly enough, most of the time it's the same guys year after year.

If you want more 6 pts in the burn you could close all the roads or go to leh.

Dont get me wrong, we had a legal bull on Dwaynes Cam before season, but this is something that gets me as well, its the same bull two years in a row, first year he grew a 5 point rack with a single legal kicker on his right brow. This season he grew another 5 point rack but with a matching sticker on his left brow, both about 1.5".

If it isnt genetics that account for the make up of his rack during the Spring, why has this bull twice grown the same frame? is a 5 point bulls main frame always going to be a 5er year in and year out with a bit of luck growing a kicker somewhere?


The same can be said for a hunting show airing a beautiful 6x6 bull and 194' typical muley being harvested. It's going to spike peoples interest in an already high pressure area, but it is what it is.


You have to wonder how many guys go in completely unprepared. Which is unfortunate because in such a warm September like we had, it could be disastorous. Its only a matter of time before people realize that the herd has spread so far that some of the better bulls are being taken away from the burn area.

[Wrayzer]

[SIZE=3]

If you selectively breed five points bulls to cows sired by five point bulls, you'll likely get five point bulls.

Want more mature six point bulls? Pressure the regulators to include five points in the harvest. The average guy gets to shoot more elk and the selective hunter has more six points reaching maturity.
]

This has been something I've been questioning this season, not for the sake o harvesting a small bull, but for the growth and prosperity of the herd. Is this a viable option for aliviating pressure off the larger bulls and having hunters harvest smaller bulls?
Or would it be opening the floodgates to depleting a herd since the guys chasing the big 300"+ bull or any mature bull, and many more guys will be harvesting 3, or 5 points (depending on regs).

This may open a whole new can.

[coach]

Pretty sure there were 6 point bulls nearby while we've been watching all the five points this year, but the non-stop whining from my hunting partners scared them off..:razz:

[GoatGuy]

My brother-in-law farmed elk, whitetail and bison for a number of years. Like other animals, you can selectively breed for certain physical traits, like body size and antler configuration.

If you selectively breed five points bulls to cows sired by five point bulls, you'll likely get five point bulls. A mature five point bull will win breeding rights from a young [though possibly superior] six point. That six point will now become a satellite bull and will likely get shot by someone who would rather have the mature five, but is forced by regulation, to take the young six.

Want more mature six point bulls? Pressure the regulators to include five points in the harvest. The average guy gets to shoot more elk and the selective hunter has more six points reaching maturity.

Sperm sales from "superior" antlered animals drives a now massive industry in NA and we can easily allow some of this knowledge to enhance our wild herds, naturally.

How often, on here, do you hear someone comment when a very good buck or bull is taken; "...hope he had a chance to spread his genes around!" So give him the chance.

In a closed system, changing genetics is relatively easy. In an open system with a steady influx of 'new blood' and genetics it takes a long time to impact the gene pool. One thing to remember as well is your genes come from both parents, not just one or the other.

There is some evidence supporting a change with bighorn sheep, however when you look at gene flow between populations, hunter harvest and social reproductive response for the species it isn't too surprising. Particularly today we're dealing with heavily fragmented populations and a regulatory regime which has inadvertently focused harvest on the wrong rams. With elk, it may happen in the long-run, but it will take a long time to see the effect.

Coming back to the other thread about wolves, wildlife management and carrying capacity the concept of increasing the number of bulls available for harvest could mitigate this perceived issue and according to conservation there is certainly room to liberalize bull elk harvest *IF* we're dealing with conservation.

Things like habitat, population dynamics and phenotype (plasticity) also play a significant role in this and it is something that is often missed in research and certainly casual discussions.

[Ambush]

Right GG and I included the cow's contribution to the gene equation, but unfortunately none of us has the means or ability to judge the cows in the field. So we only have the bull side to work with.

I'm also talking strictly about areas that have only six point openings. Areas that allow hunting across the age/antler size/gender classes already have a more natural selection for breeding, that being the best bull/buck gets the girl.

Funny, whenever we manipulate nature to get what we want, it always creates a whole new set of problems. Too many animals seems like a good problem, until the inevitable crash. I really don't believe that there is any such thing as a "natural" population of wildlife anywhere in NA. So manage we must, but we could do better with more science and less social interference from both the hunting and non-hunting communities.

But nice fireside BS material to keep us talking until the coals burn down and it's time to turn in.

[358mag]

Coming back to the other thread about wolves, wildlife management and carrying capacity the concept of increasing the number of bulls available for harvest could mitigate this perceived issue and according to conservation there is certainly room to liberalize bull elk harvest *IF* we're dealing with conservation.
Well this should make for some very interesting talk at the next allocation meeting

[GoatGuy]

Coming back to the other thread about wolves, wildlife management and carrying capacity the concept of increasing the number of bulls available for harvest could mitigate this perceived issue and according to conservation there is certainly room to liberalize bull elk harvest *IF* we're dealing with conservation.
Well this should make for some very interesting talk at the next allocation meeting

I don't think it will be on the agenda.... social and political constraints, you know?

[GoatGuy]

Right GG and I included the cow's contribution to the gene equation, but unfortunately none of us has the means or ability to judge the cows in the field. So we only have the bull side to work with.

I'm also talking strictly about areas that have only six point openings. Areas that allow hunting across the age/antler size/gender classes already have a more natural selection for breeding, that being the best bull/buck gets the girl.

Funny, whenever we manipulate nature to get what we want, it always creates a whole new set of problems. Too many animals seems like a good problem, until the inevitable crash. I really don't believe that there is any such thing as a "natural" population of wildlife anywhere in NA. So manage we must, but we could do better with more science and less social interference from both the hunting and non-hunting communities.

But nice fireside BS material to keep us talking until the coals burn down and it's time to turn in.

Generalizing of course, we're best directing our harvest to what would naturally happen, typically the young and the old.

The reality of the situation is the application of science in wildlife management is pretty 'light'.

[gitnadoix]

After many years of ivory hunting and later ivory poaching in africa, they are now seeing an increasing trend of mature bull elephants that never grow any tusks. The obvious conclusion that has been drawn is that the trait has been removed after decades of shooting the bulls with largest and then ever smaller ivory.......I imagine there will be other opinions but it is interesting non the same...

[Husky7mm]

Not sure of mentioned already but those young bulls ARE the one that WILL come to the call in the heavy pressure area's, many 6 point and especially mature 6+ point bulls will not bugle or come to the call in this environment, more likely they will go the other way. A mature bull in heavy pressured areas pattern hunters. Think outside the box and I hope you have lots of time on your hands. Opening week IMO is the best for a "legal" bull from the heavy pressure areas where the biggest bulls have heard it all before.

[Ourea]

Not sure of mentioned already but those young bulls ARE the one that WILL come to the call in the heavy pressure area's, many 6 point and especially mature 6+ point bulls will not bugle or come to the call in this environment, more likely they will go the other way. A mature bull in heavy pressured areas pattern hunters. Think outside the box and I hope you have lots of time on your hands. Opening week IMO is the best for a "legal" bull from the heavy pressure areas where the biggest bulls have heard it all before.

And that's why those that "hunt" the other ten months of the year scouting, cam'n, shed hunting, following game after the hunting season through their winter cycle and into spring. Observing the bachelor groups. Knowing the inventory. Knowing where, when, why and how the animals use their habitat. If you don't know their basic yearly routine you will always be on the outside lookin in.
The 90/10 rule will always apply.

[Walking Buffalo]

In a closed system, changing genetics is relatively easy. In an open system with a steady influx of 'new blood' and genetics it takes a long time to impact the gene pool. One thing to remember as well is your genes come from both parents, not just one or the other.

There is some evidence supporting a change with bighorn sheep, however when you look at gene flow between populations, hunter harvest and social reproductive response for the species it isn't too surprising. Particularly today we're dealing with heavily fragmented populations and a regulatory regime which has inadvertently focused harvest on the wrong rams. With elk, it may happen in the long-run, but it will take a long time to see the effect.

Coming back to the other thread about wolves, wildlife management and carrying capacity the concept of increasing the number of bulls available for harvest could mitigate this perceived issue and according to conservation there is certainly room to liberalize bull elk harvest *IF* we're dealing with conservation.

Things like habitat, population dynamics and phenotype (plasticity) also play a significant role in this and it is something that is often missed in research and certainly casual discussions.



Is there Conclusive Proof regarding hunting influence genetic selection in Bighorn sheep? The evidence seems to be very "selective".


Tryng to prove Hunting influenced genetic shifts in wildlife is all the rage within the biology community these days. I guess one goes where the employment is, regardless of who is paying your wage. ;)


Have you read the latest Hunting influenced Genetic Selection study involving elk in Alberta? It turns out that hunters are killing all of the genetically "Brave" bulls leaving the "Timid" bulls to breed, which are genetically more suceptible to wolf predation.....

[The Dude]

Funny, Ourea and I had a long convo about this today.
And we don't agree.
There's a first time for everything. :D

[Husky7mm]

Every year in the 6 point areas a handful of "legal" bulls slip through the masses to become bigger and better, albeit living like a ghost, call shy, knockturnal, and elusive. Hunt hard and hunt smart! Cat and mouse. The largest tophies are likely not found in this type of enviroment but respectable one's none the less!

[drewsky]

Makes total sense!! They are big for a reason.

[one-shot-wonder]

Its only a matter of time before people realize that the herd has spread so far that some of the better bulls are being taken away from the burn area.
Sounds like you answered your own question right there....If your not finding 6's time to get out of the pressure cooker.

[GoatGuy]

Is there Conclusive Proof regarding hunting influence genetic selection in Bighorn sheep? The evidence seems to be very "selective".


Tryng to prove Hunting influenced genetic shifts in wildlife is all the rage within the biology community these days. I guess one goes where the employment is, regardless of who is paying your wage. ;)


Have you read the latest Hunting influenced Genetic Selection study involving elk in Alberta? It turns out that hunters are killing all of the genetically "Brave" bulls leaving the "Timid" bulls to breed, which are genetically more suceptible to wolf predation.....

Haven't seen it.

The research on sheep has its problems as that population is a bit of an island and you have issues with in-breeding as well. The new blood from the mine should sort that out and we'll see - that will help sort things out a bit.

This isn't the first time ecologists have warned about harvesting younger rams. Geist identified this decades ago. The trick is to letting them live to 8 and there's a lot of rams way younger than that which get harvested.

[Walking Buffalo]

Haven't seen it.

The research on sheep has its problems as that population is a bit of an island and you have issues with in-breeding as well. The new blood from the mine should sort that out and we'll see - that will help sort things out a bit.

This isn't the first time ecologists have warned about harvesting younger rams. Geist identified this decades ago. The trick is to letting them live to 8 and there's a lot of rams way younger than that which get harvested.


Interesting. In correspondence with Geist and Wishart regarding this topic, they both called BS on the Genetic harm "evidence" that has been put forth.

I have no issue with letting sheep mature before harvest, I do have a problem with Wildlife reasearchers claiming a theory to be fact without providing proof.