View Full Version : Deer problems in Region 5
Here is my rant, and seeing as this topic came up on another recent post, the timing is probably good to stir up discusion.
Having hunted Region 5 numerous times in the past few years, and having the opportunity to speak with many locals about the decline of the Trophy quality of deer in the area along the Fraser, I am inclinded to say that the "shoot any buck until Nov. 20" is officially the most ignorant regulation going,
-Why would these young bucks not be protected, so that they can grow to be big bucks? They have the genes for it, but with the current rules, that are being slaughtered for no good reason,
- If the "meat" hunters want to say that this increases their chance for a deer, why not open a doe season for 10 days in all of region 5 from Oct. 27-Nov 5. If they are indeed "meat" hunters, will they not be happy with shooting a doe?
- The any buck Season should close Nov 5 as well. Also, the bag limit should be 2 mule deer, one of each sex- with the current 2 buck rule- how do they stand a chance?
What is the reason for this foolish regulation? Just this year alone, our group could have tagged 6 3 point or smaller bucks!
Bottom line, the quality of big bucks in region 5 is going down fast, with no end to the down turn in sight!
THOUGHTS!
Fisher-Dude
11-27-2006, 12:52 PM
I want a link to a scientific study about whether or not recruitment of young bucks is an effective management tool for trophy class deer. So far, no one can provide it.
The questions are: does shooting more small bucks take the pressure off the big bucks, as hunters tag out sooner and therefore don't pursue bigger bucks? Or does the supply of trophy bucks need a lot of recruitment of smaller bucks?
Picking an arbitrary date of Nov 5 for closing any buck without the science to back that date up doesn't seem right. The biologists have the harvest and age stratification statistics to back up their chosen seasons, so I believe they have made their choices based on science, not opinion.
Speaking to locals about the apparent decline of trophy bucks is even less scientific...you can bet the opinion about the supply of bucks from the locals is tainted by whether they want to encourage a non-local to hunt "their" deer or not. Bullshit runs deep amongst the locals in any area! I know it's alive and well where I hunt! :wink:
Gun Dog
11-27-2006, 01:00 PM
I think the "any buck" season draws more hunters which pushs the big bucks elsewhere. Just because you don't see them doesn't mean they're not there.
dougan
11-27-2006, 01:51 PM
Four point or better is the only place to hunt for me. At least you have the chance to look at bucks every day and the fact is these bucks grow up not being shot at and wene you see one their not as skiddish as a four point that has been dodging lead year after year and the meat hunters out their get a deer with an extra 50+pounds on it.thats just my take on it and im sure some will not agree but so be it.
Deerwhacker
11-27-2006, 02:04 PM
3 point or smaller to protect the mature bucks. Being as the mature bucks do most of the breeding this makes the most sense to me. The needs of someone hunting for antlers should be pushed aside from the need for sustaining a healthy population of deer. my 2 cents anyway.
jessbennett
11-27-2006, 02:30 PM
i dont know where you are hunting, but this is one of the best years ive seen in along time for bucks big or small.
tmarschall
11-27-2006, 02:36 PM
Not sure if this will help any, but let me tell you about a program that is a few years old that they have tried down here in a few counties of Texas. These counties had very heavy hunting pressure. Like you were saying, quality bucks were hard to come by, not to mention the buck/doe ratio was way out of proportion. They implemented a restriction that a buck had to have at least a 13 inch spread to be legal, or one antler had to have no more than one point(including brow tine which you don't normally count). They had diagrams in the regulations which showed that the antlers should reach to the outside of the ears to be legal, basically a rule of thumb for judging antler spread. These restrictions allowed for the culling of single point spikes and prevented the killing of younger bucks. There were some other details to the restrictions but these were the main ones. As I remember, there was no shortening of the hunting season with these restrictions. There was lots of skepticism at first, but now harvests have increased and more counties are signing up for the same restrictions. I would imagine the Texas Parks and Wildlife department would be glad to share information on the project if anyone is interested.
I posted about this project earlier this year or maybe last year giving numbers on the harvest data... it was a significcant increase. Maybe I can find it and post again... Tom
jessbennett
11-27-2006, 02:41 PM
so instead of a rangefinding scope we need one with a rack spread indiator....hehehe just kidden around.......
Timbow
11-27-2006, 02:42 PM
Well for all the guys that would want to manage for trophy class bucks. Start with yourself and restrain from shooting smaller class bucks. I hear a lot of guys who say that the deer are just not there and then on the same breath say, "oh I shot a two point". Come on, practice what you preach! Conservation starts from within ourselves. This thread would have been a great conservation thread only to have started and ended in the same thread.
I hunted the Empire Valley this last October only to find 7 camps of "non-locals" including myself, and all the guys we talked to all said the same thing about a lack of trophy class bucks. Yet we counted 9 bucks hanging in their camps ranging from spike to one small three point.
I saw many bucks and pasted on all of them holding out for the big guy. I saw one buck in the 170 plus class and about a dozen other four points with the largest in the 150 class. The bucks are there.
Sorry for the rant....
Tim
I want a link to a scientific study about whether or not recruitment of young bucks is an effective management tool for trophy class deer. So far, no one can provide it.
The questions are: does shooting more small bucks take the pressure off the big bucks, as hunters tag out sooner and therefore don't pursue bigger bucks? Or does the supply of trophy bucks need a lot of recruitment of smaller bucks?
Picking an arbitrary date of Nov 5 for closing any buck without the science to back that date up doesn't seem right. The biologists have the harvest and age stratification statistics to back up their chosen seasons, so I believe they have made their choices based on science, not opinion.
Speaking to locals about the apparent decline of trophy bucks is even less scientific...you can bet the opinion about the supply of bucks from the locals is tainted by whether they want to encourage a non-local to hunt "their" deer or not. Bullshit runs deep amongst the locals in any area! I know it's alive and well where I hunt! :wink:
OK, so EVERYONE who wants can hunt a 2 point until Nov 20th in region 5, AND THEN shoot a 4 point from the 20th to the 30th, HOW does this relieve the pressure on the bigger bucks if "hunters are tagged out"?
3 point or smaller to protect the mature bucks. Being as the mature bucks do most of the breeding this makes the most sense to me. The needs of someone hunting for antlers should be pushed aside from the need for sustaining a healthy population of deer. my 2 cents anyway.
OK, I agree- But is the region 5 deer population healthy? I would say by the number of car/deer accidents is is at capacity?
As I said, if the meat hunters want meat, let them shoot a doe during an open Doe season! The governement would make more money on this than the LEH Doe, as the cost of a Mule deer tag is triple the LEH,
As for the mature bucks doing most of the breeding, just this weekend I saw 2 different 2 and 3 points "on the tail". Where were the bigger bucks?
ellellbee
11-27-2006, 03:26 PM
Ministry wildlife biologists are concerned with maintaining population levels not how big the rack is. Maybe fewer smaller bucks as competition means that the big ones get through the rut in better shape with less running around and chasing them off. The better shape they come out of the rut, the better they survive the winter.
What you are forgetting is that not everyone hunts on the same level. There are beginner hunters, older hunters, only-get-out-for-one-weekend-a-year hunters.... etc. Just because an experienced hunter or a local hunter who can get out frequently may want to pass on the small to mid-sized bucks doesn't mean you need to close access to them for those that may need an easier prey.
Who is saying anything about closing access? How is opening a doe season not increasing access, and opportunity for all hunters?
They can still shoot any buck in October, but 4 point only for November!
As I said, if the meat hunters want meat, let them shoot a doe during an open Doe season! The governement would make more money on this than the LEH Doe, as the cost of a Mule deer tag is triple the LEH,
I was under the impression that you still have to by the mule deer tag after you draw the leh?
Fisher-Dude
11-27-2006, 04:26 PM
OK, so EVERYONE who wants can hunt a 2 point until Nov 20th in region 5, AND THEN shoot a 4 point from the 20th to the 30th, HOW does this relieve the pressure on the bigger bucks if "hunters are tagged out"?
Re-read my post, I didn't say it does, I said it's a question that needs answering. If the bios determine that there is an age class that needs help, then maybe they would consider reducing quota on that age class. Perhaps if a hunter takes a small buck, it precludes him from taking a 4 point in the late season. This would likely reduce much of the local harvest of smaller bucks, as many would opt to save their tag for the rut and a chance at a mature buck. Those who come in for a meat hunt once a year to 5 may opt for a smaller buck as they are less likely to return for the late season. Either way, the harvest would be reduced. It comes down to how much opportunity a hunter has to fill his tag as to the choices he makes. Again, I'm not promoting this as I don't have the scientific data to prove that recruitment of small bucks is what is needed to increase trophy bucks, I'm just suggesting it could be done if science says that's what is needed.
Some have said that hunters tend to shoot the buck standing beside the doe if they have an LEH. One solution to this is to preclude LEH holders from shooting a buck that year, or at least precluding a buck being taken during the period of the doe LEH. It was done with cow elk in the Kootenays in order to achieve a gender harvest target.
Overall, deer populations right across the province are as high as they've ever been. The cycle will likely only be broken by a killer winter. A GOS on antlerless deer is hard to control, so the better method appears to be flooding more LEHs out there. Ellellbee makes some good points about how not everyone has the same opportunity to hunt nor the same objectives. Maxx, I believe when she was speaking about "access", she was speaking more about "opportunity". Opportunity breeds participation, and that for sure is what this province needs now in all regions.
Steeleco
11-27-2006, 04:28 PM
I agree the bucks need looking after, but I think like tmarscall, where in, more does need to be taken where the population seems too unbalanced. I am a "meat hunter" first but that doesn't mean I'll shoot the first thing showing more than ears.
Aside from the local hills, I get one week to travel north and enjoy your folks part of the world. There may be others that wait till the last chance but I have a feeling most of the late season pressure in home grown? I would gladly take a doe and be happy whatever the season.
That said there are good arguments against the taking the females in a species, Moose is one hotly debated example.
I trust (loosely) the biologists know what they're doing???
If you're looking for a trophy class animal try 7B, region 5 holds lots of deer and that's why the liberal season and any bucks. It's over populated.
They've got LEH doe tags for that region because there are to many deer for that area to sustain. Look at the number of deer that are being killed every year by traffic collisions alone. Not all hunters are Trophy hunters, actually the majority aren't. So the first decent size legal buck they are happy to harvest. That should leave the bigger bucks for those who want a trophy. I for one don't want to see hunting being restricted to produce trophy animals, I don't want to be portrayed as someone who is just out there looking for antlers. If the biologist thought that it was harming the population I'm sure they'd do something about it. If my memory serves me correctly this subject was already discussed and it became a heated debate.
The guides wanted region 5 to become a 4 points or better region and the majority was against it and it was voted down.
Marc.
... the majority was against it and it was voted down.
As it should have been.:)
BCrams
11-27-2006, 05:07 PM
I am going to try take out a Region 5 buck this week. I am not going to be picky either!
If there are deer problems in region 5 the seasons would change accordingly following what the biologists find data-wise after then hunting season and winter. When deer populations are affected adversely the regulations are always changed to reflect what is happening in said region.
Example. A number of years ago in region 4 the mule deer populations were adversely affected by a number of factors not limited to liberal harvests, predation, and harsh winters. The regulations were changed to 4 point or better for the majority of the season, and also shortened in order to assist the populations back to healthy numbers, and when their goals were reached the regulations again changed to what they are now.
Biologists manage for healthy, stable populations as their top priority, as they should. As i see it managing for antlers is next to impossible anyways, a) everyone would be out there popping only the biggest bucks because that is all they could and then it would get to the point of every 4 point in the world would be dead and no hunting opportunities would be left b) the only way you could possibly do it is to LIMIT the number of hunters for each region, each year. How would anyone here like to be told that only X number of hunters could go out in each region each year, while a huge healthy deer population was running around out there, getting closer and closer to carrying capacity. The worst part of that would be that the population would actually nose dive because the land could not support the number of animals on it. Starvartion and other such things would occur and that is never good. Oh and biologists in BC are not managing for trophies anyways.
Not trying to heat things up here, just hoping for some good constructive conversation. And everytime i am in region five the population, to me at least, seems quite healthy.
Gun Dog
11-27-2006, 05:23 PM
I don't think you can micro-manage deer populations to get more "trophy" bucks. There's just too many variables. As Ride said, Biologists manage for healthy, stable populations. If they tried to promote one tiny subset then another group will suffer.
Hunters don't cooperate either -- this year we had 4 doe tags but only filled one.
Tank- you are correct, but how many more people would buy a second mule deer tag for the open doe season?
Manage for a "healthy population? Does this not mean that the older,mature bucks are the ones doing the breeding? That is what it means to me. Yes, I want larger horns, but that is almost a by-product of not wanting loads of small bucks being killed "easily".
A few of you have said that you are meat hunters, so what is wrong with taking a doe? It is good meat! Ah HA, there is a bias towards taking a "buck" ( no matter how small they are), as it is the more "manly" thing to do. As some people have stated, if they had a doe tag, and a small buck was beside the doe, they would shoot the buck,
Face it, to properly manage the population, the Does must be "trimmed", otherwise they are all having twin's, and yet the bucks that they are " creating" are killed when they are 2 or 3. It is a cycle that will only lead to less and less "mature" bucks IMO.
This is what the eastern US did to try and trim the Whitetail Population, they opened more Doe season, BUT they had to convince the hunters that it was "OK" to take a doe,
Gun Dog is the perfect example of why the LEH for Does does not work, they had 3 unfilled Doe tags YET I am sure that a young person, or Old meat hunter would be thrilled to kill that Doe for Meat, and Sport- It is much easier to find a Doe than a Buck, right?
Gun Dog
11-27-2006, 05:56 PM
Gun Dog is the perfect example of why the LEH for Does does not work, they had 3 unfilled Doe tags YET I am sure that a young person, or Old meat hunter would be thrilled to kill that Doe for Meat, and Sport- It is much easier to find a Doe than a Buck, right?And yet, we also had three little buckaroos on the game pole. Why? Because if there's a bunch of does and one buck you fill the "difficult" tag first. You can always shoot a doe tomorrow, right?
The other factor is, given a choice, I'd prefer a barren (i.e. not lactating) doe and that takes time to sort out. You can always shoot a doe tomorrow, right?
It's not a case of manly men shoot bucks; it about manly men respect motherhood.
If it was an issue of still to many does then they should increase the LEH. If I had a doe tag hell yah I'd fill it if the opertunity arised. But killing off all the does isn't going to help either. You still want good numbers and by shooting the bucks, small or big means the does will produce more fawns to replace them next spring. It's the same mentality of shooting drake mallards. Leave the hens to breed to increase the numbers for harvest.
Marc.
hunter1947
11-27-2006, 06:32 PM
Lets face it ,it all comes down to having a proper buck to doe racial at the right number to have a healthy population. hunter 1947.
Fisher-Dude
11-27-2006, 06:47 PM
I am going to try take out a Region 5 buck this week. I am not going to be picky either!
BCRams, try not to fall in the water, stab yourself, burn yourself, or drive over your gun. Good luck! :lol:
Deerwhacker
11-27-2006, 07:17 PM
Another thing to think about is that the deer population in reg 5 is not lacking.note that this is from my ONE trip bear hunting near 100mile this past spring.I seen LOTS of deer. it was dangerous riding my dirtbike i almost smoked a nice 20"ish buck (this was antler size in april). this was the snag lake area by the way . I know maxx intended this thread to be about the lack of trophy bucks but all the goverment is conserned about is the overall deer population.
ianwuzhere
11-27-2006, 07:32 PM
maybe there is a large population of "trophy" bucks, but they just have eluded you like they have eluded me- i know they are out there just have to be party lucky and put in yer time to get em. I actually like it that there are more smaller bucks- cuz it always makes u wanna hunt for that "trophy" buck. I wouldnt like to see everyone get a trophy buck... just my 2 cents
One more thing to add. We all need to remember one thing. Large bucks come from good GENETICS. Its like everything on this planet. Genetics is the most determining factor in quality of an animal. It doesn't matter if that trophy buck breeds a doe when he has his biggest set of antlers or if he gets lucky with breeding in his first season with a small set of antlers, its what he passes in his genetic line. With good genetics and a healthy land to sustain the populations you get good bucks.
Don't get me wrong. Doe harvest is an effective management tool used properly. Healthy buck to doe ratios are important and critical to the populations.
This is a good conversation, lets keep it going.........
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