Baiting, Morals and...WOLVES.

[Ourea]

For those that don't know me from Adam I am extremely active with trail cameras.
Yes, I am one of those horrible people that solely puruses only trophy animals.

I had set up some cams in the Weedy West Kootenays in August when we were over cutting trail in our hunting area in anticipation of our elk hunt.
I am sure some saw a few of the pictures I posted up that were coming in from my cell cam in real time.
I was quite surprised to get pics of wolves coming in as we had never seen so much as a track in the previous 15 years in this area.

I have a commercial lick that I use in support of my cameras. Through lots of testing with numerous blocks being laid out together we easily determined one that was the hands down favorite.
I dropped one of these blocks in front of my cell cam.
The elk habituated to it within a few days and some would spend the entire night on it.
Three weeks into the program I started getting the wolf pics.
They basically set up shop by the block and appears they were pursuing the elk as they were going to and from.
(I was suprised how aggressively the elk patterned to the lick in this area compared to the many other areas I cam in)

So, my issue is this.
My unatural attractant "repatterned" the elk and ultimately placed them in a situation of vulnerability from a predation perspective.
I have a real issue with this. I am and have always been a conservation first person. This bait program has ended for me in high predator areas as a result. I can't do it with a clear conscious as an outdoorsman. ........just a lot of bad mojo for the sake of a pic.

I wanted to call this experience out.....pass on the information as an FYI.

ourea out

[Stone Sheep Steve]

While I'm mostly just a "meat hunter" I encountered the same thing last yr(although I don't use a trail cam). Not wolves but a cougar. Deer gave up on the "attractant" but I still witnessed cat tracks coming back to the site weeks after the season was over.
Even saw the cat at 18 yards while I was in my stand with bow in hand...and no cougar tag. Tracks told me the cat had gone after a deer in the early hours of that same morning.

SSS

[coach]

Great thread, Ourea! Good on you for being honest and sharing your experience. Hopefully a few more guys will chime in with stories of their own. Always good policy to reflect on how our own seemingly innocent actions could be affecting the animal population.

[Rattler]

Too bad to hear about the wolves. I don't use trail cams myself, but if I were in your shoes I would do the same. Good on you for raising this issue.

[BlacktailStalker]

What would be even better is to whack one of these wolves on the bait. They aren't stupid and would wise up to them and be less likely to hang around them so freely (that one anyways)
The wolves move so much as well, they have to it is part of their lifestyle just like cats. But nonetheless good on ya, you didn't want any of those little bulls anyways ;)

[Gunner]

I had a similar thing happen 4 or 5 years ago,I was feeding whiteails through the winter.Got up one morning and there were a dozen ravens at the back corner of my property.I grabbed a rifle and walked up on 2+ feet of frozen snow to find a dead fawn buried under some branches.Tracks said it was a female cougar with a grown kitten,she waited right where the deer were jumping the fence to come in to feed.I had 20+ does and fawns coming in each night and any time you create a situation that concentrates prey animals you have to expect a predator to show up and take advantage.I cut my feeding way back and subsequent winters have been milder,I have many less deer and no predator problems.Theres always coyotes around but they seem to avoid my place for some reason! Gunner

[dana]

I have yet to see any results from trail cameras in this province that make me think I need one. I had one of the old film style ones years ago and only got one roll of film from it with nothing but clouds and a spiker on it and then the camera ate the second roll and wouldn't work again. I had set it on a natural lick where I had observed big buck tracks on a regular basis. Never felt the need to get another after that bad experience. But I can tell ya I had observed both lion and wolf tracks on that lick in the past and in the time since. Makes sense as the predators will be where the target animals hang out.

[hunter1993ap]

I have yet to see any results from trail cameras in this province that make me think I need one. I had one of the old film style ones years ago and only got one roll of film from it with nothing but clouds and a spiker on it and then the camera ate the second roll and wouldn't work again. I had set it on a natural lick where I had observed big buck tracks on a regular basis. Never felt the need to get another after that bad experience. But I can tell ya I had observed both lion and wolf tracks on that lick in the past and in the time since. Makes sense as the predators will be where the target animals hang out.

the best thing about a tcam is you get to see some nice pictures of some prety respectable animals. but i agree for the five years i have had my cams they have not helped me a whole lot with hunting an area. thats great to know about the lick attracting elk and the wolves soon to follow. i guess packing those heavy rocks way up the mountain didnt give you as good of a reward as you thought;-) were the elk still using the lick when you went in there or did the wolves push them out?

[bugler]

I suppose whether it is a natural attractant or a bait station the results are likely the same. I got a cougar pic at a whitetail bait station during the late bow season. Obviously attracted by all the deer hanging around there. I also have griz and black bear pics at a natural elk wallow where I've taken a couple of bulls. Anything that concentrates the prey will concentrate the predators, including me!!!

[j270wsm]

Are your camera's up all year? Just a thought but why dont you find out who has the trap line where your camera is? Let the trapper clean out the wolves.

[Living in the Peace]

Interesting how the predators adapt.In the Muskwa /Gatho I hear so many stories of the bears heading to the sound of gunshots,on the coast the seals leaving the rocks as soon as they hear the reels sing and I was just reading a article on saltwater fishing in warmer waters where they primarily practiced catch & release but still found their fish numbers steadiy declining. A study was conducted and found that sharks were found trailing the boats and there was aprox.40% mortality on released fish due to shark predation before the fish were able to recover their strength.

[hunter1993ap]

Are your camera's up all year? Just a thought but why dont you find out who has the trap line where your camera is? Let the trapper clean out the wolves.

i had that same idea but i would imagine from the way ourea hunts the trapper would never make it into the lick... or want to pack anything out of there.

[Ourea]

i had that same idea but i would imagine from the way ourea hunts the trapper would never make it into the lick... or want to pack anything out of there.

j270swm, we are grub hoed, chainsawed and bush wacked in 10 - 15km back into the nastiest shit holes you could ever imagine.
All in support of finding and killing the best of the best.
Agree or disagree....thats what we do.
No outfitter could could get stock in, let alone a client. No sled could support a trapping effort.
Thats why we have invested ...to hunt these challenging areas....with zero pressure.
Hunting them is the easy part.....the endless days of trail cutting and bush slinging to facilitate this is the hard part.

So, these areas will allow the predation factor to go on unchecked. No quantified data to allow a response to combat.
I'm from the Okanagan.....so the the wolf infestation hit me in the face.
It is a major factor.
New to me.
I observe. I am still digesting what I see is happening.

I am passing on my observations and experiences.

Qualified perspectives are appreciated.

[GoatGuy]

With wolves exploding the way they are, the next decade will be interesting, bait or no bait. Lots of traditional spots where critters were safe from hunters are now danger zones because of wolves. Couple of the one way basins that were elk magnets are now wolf magnets.

Things, they are a changing. Be interesting to see how things continue to unfold.

[Elk-Aholic]

With wolves exploding the way they are, the next decade will be interesting, bait or no bait. Lots of traditional spots where critters were safe from hunters are now danger zones because of wolves. Couple of the one way basins that were elk magnets are now wolf magnets.

Things, they are a changing. Be interesting to see how things continue to unfold.

And the unfortunate part is the change will be not benefitical for hunters.......Definitly opened my eyes with the wolves and how intelegent they are. Time to see if they are more intelegent than the predator call......

[Ourea]

I have yet to see any results from trail cameras in this province that make me think I need one. I had one of the old film style ones years ago and only got one roll of film from it with nothing but clouds and a spiker on it and then the camera ate the second roll and wouldn't work again. I had set it on a natural lick where I had observed big buck tracks on a regular basis. Never felt the need to get another after that bad experience. But I can tell ya I had observed both lion and wolf tracks on that lick in the past and in the time since. Makes sense as the predators will be where the target animals hang out.

You and I differ from that perspective.......last time I checked, ...technology works. Rumor has it ....., technology is even changing the world.
Use it to your advantage........or ignore it.
I know of a 240" mule deer and a 360+ elk that were taken as a direct result of trail cam recon....using this current technology as a tool.

Trail cams offer quantified evidence of the inventory.
Granted some species ( MULE DEER!!!) are almost impossible to pattern. ....But get just one pic of a giant and your enthusiasm and focus changes in a second.
Just sayin....

Back to the point....we have far more impact on wildlife with our activities..with our hunting practices, with our harvest ..than the average person comprehends or consensus card readers understand.

Now think about how the wolf infestation is impacting game populations.
My eyes have been opened wide after my recent trip to the WK.

My challenge now is what am I going to do about making a change...............

[Walking Buffalo]

Interesting thread Mountains.

I'm glad to hear your personal ethics override the legality of technology and hunting/scouting techniques.

Personally, my concern with baiting ungulates has little to do with ethics. Baiting ungulates is a great way to increase the likelyhood for diseases to spread within and outside of a herd, and for this reason alone, I feel we should not allow the practice.
Be OH SO VERY HAPPY that BC has yet to experience CWD!

If one cares for these animals, don't put them at this risk.



Regarding the wolves, I have watched several Elk herds adapt to the presence of these canines. Some herds simply don't adapt in time and get wiped out. Others survive by migrating to habitats that allow for greater chances to escape when pursued.

You will see dramatic changes, just what they will be, time will tell.

[Mr. Dean]

My challenge now is what am I going to do about making a change...............

Well, I'm trading in my annual 10 days of Sept-Oct Muley Chasing, for Pred Whacking in January.
And I'm actually getting pretty excited about it. :mrgreen:

I don't think my effort will dent the pred populations the slightest bit,,, but it's something.

[leadpillproductions]

Ill be do some wolf killing this winter also really starting to be to many wolves

[ruger#1]

Ill be do some wolf killing this winter also really starting to be to many wolves Back in the eighties they had a wolf kill in your area. I seen lots alone the Pine River, But didn't get a crack at any. Seen four moose kills when we took the horses back 15 miles to take a wall tent down. also seen 7 wolfes on that horse ride. We had to burn the wall tent. A grizzley shreded it to peices. That was a great time.

[The Dude]

To quote the poet Hetfield:

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s164/joemama525/Metallica_-_Kill_Em_All.jpg\

[steel_ram]

Maybe I misunderstand one of the most basic principals of wildlife management, but isn't taking out a few here and there only helping maintain a healthier (larger) population of any species. The population of predators has to be knocked right down to the bottom. Attempted culls by man in the past have ultimately failed. Them critters are very good at reproducing themselves if the food is there. Sadly I fear a natural crash is the only real solution. Unfortunately our interference and damage to the environment may not make a recovery of other species possible.

[The Hermit]

Maybe I misunderstand one of the most basic principals of wildlife management, but isn't taking out a few here and there only helping maintain a healthier (larger) population of any species. The population of predators has to be knocked right down to the bottom. Attempted culls by man in the past have ultimately failed. Them critters are very good at reproducing themselves if the food is there. Sadly I fear a natural crash is the only real solution. Unfortunately our interference and damage to the environment may not make a recovery of other species possible.

This is may concern too especially with the moose situation in the north. Between logging off huge tracts of beetle kill, predation by wolves and unreported hunting and poaching I an concerned that the MOE won take appropriate action. Eg a wolf cull of significant proportions.

[rocksteady]

Starting to see the same trend as the OP... Trail cam been in one spot for 3 years, last 2 years the elk and deer were common, occassional B bear...

This year, not so much for elk and deer, but wolves, cougar, bobcat, lynx, coyote, black bear.... Got a picture of a female wolf emptying her bladder right on the salt pile....

[Darksith]

so it is illegal to bait a wolf correct? But not illegal to place bait with the intention to snare or trap it? But not just anyone can snare/trap wolves? I wonder with the C/O's actively trapping wolves in my area, what their stance on the whole baiting wolves over the winter when there are no bears about. It would be pretty easy to locate the highways roadkill dump site, take an animal to an area with wolves and sit on it, but wouldn't want to break any laws doing so. The big problem with wolves is they are so smart, I personally have never seen a live wild wolf...everything else including cougar, but never a wolf.

On a side note I consider my trail cams a hobby more than a tool to find the monster. They are in my favorite place to hunt, I already spend most of my hunting time in that area, and when you get the right setup (no small trees, grasses and good lighting) and find that you have 500+ pictures all of animals it really is fun to sit down and look through them. Its like xmas, you never know what your gonna get but theres always that potential for something amazing. My wife bought me my cams, and she is so happy that I use them so extensively.

[dana]

You and I differ from that perspective.......last time I checked, ...technology works. Rumor has it ....., technology is even changing the world.
Use it to your advantage........or ignore it.
I know of a 240" mule deer and a 360+ elk that were taken as a direct result of trail cam recon....using this current technology as a tool.

Trail cams offer quantified evidence of the inventory.
Granted some species ( MULE DEER!!!) are almost impossible to pattern. ....But get just one pic of a giant and your enthusiasm and focus changes in a second.
Just sayin....

Back to the point....we have far more impact on wildlife with our activities..with our hunting practices, with our harvest ..than the average person comprehends or consensus card readers understand.

Now think about how the wolf infestation is impacting game populations.
My eyes have been opened wide after my recent trip to the WK.

My challenge now is what am I going to do about making a change...............

I'm not against technology, just don't see a practical application in the areas I hunt. I have a couple of buddies that have several out, and not a single buck worth taking a picture of has been captured yet. While they mess with the technology, I will keep on scouting my old ways. I don't need a picture to tell me there is a big buck worthy of hunting frequenting the area. There are old school signs to look for like hawg tracks, monster rubs, and big sheds. ;) The one thing my buddies have captured a lot of pics of are lions. For the average hunter out there that don't pay attention to the predator sign, the camera pics can be a real eye opener. I hunt cats, so I have learned to pay attention to the sign and the pics don't surprise me one bit.

As for wolves, you better start getting use to them cause they are heading your way. We've been hit hard by them over the last several years and the GPS data shows they are moving south to easier hunting grounds.

[BCrams]

With wolves exploding the way they are, the next decade will be interesting, bait or no bait. Lots of traditional spots where critters were safe from hunters are now danger zones because of wolves. Couple of the one way basins that were elk magnets are now wolf magnets.

Things, they are a changing. Be interesting to see how things continue to unfold.

Saw more wolf sign in one sheep trip this year than the entire last 10 years combined. SSS may have mentioned it.

[ruger#1]

They are here, One was shot in Deroche last year. It was close to 100 lbs.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I'm not against technology, just don't see a practical application in the areas I hunt. I have a couple of buddies that have several out, and not a single buck worth taking a picture of has been captured yet. While they mess with the technology, I will keep on scouting my old ways. I don't need a picture to tell me there is a big buck worthy of hunting frequenting the area. There are old school signs to look for like hawg tracks, monster rubs, and big sheds. ;) The one thing my buddies have captured a lot of pics of are lions. For the average hunter out there that don't pay attention to the predator sign, the camera pics can be a real eye opener. I hunt cats, so I have learned to pay attention to the sign and the pics don't surprise me one bit.

As for wolves, you better start getting use to them cause they are heading your way. We've been hit hard by them over the last several years and the GPS data shows they are moving south to easier hunting grounds.

GPS data also shows they are coming up from the south out of Washington into the OK. Looks like a predator sandwich in the making. Getting it from all angles.

SSS

[The Dude]

The question is not what to do with wolves, it was whether or not placing a salt lick on a trail cam artificially concentrates preds and prey.

Ourea, without a baseline of older cams, with and without blocks, I wouldn't be so quick to question your own actions. You saw Elk, you saw wolves, your other cams you saw cats and Mulies. Does that mean that you created an artificial situation, or that preds trigger motion sensors?

Your Cat cams weren't over blocks, now , were they?
Wolves gotta walk somewhere. Sometimes it's past your cams.
Personally, if that IS what is in fact happening, I might use that as a technique to get wolves. Pattern the prey, then whack the preds.

[Glassman]

I have no issue with licks. We human hunters use other attractants also. Such as cow calls, rattling antlers, scent bombs, etc.... Heck even a fishing lure and flashers to me are the same thing.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

The question is not what to do with wolves, it was whether or not placing a salt lick on a trail cam artificially concentrates preds and prey.

Ourea, without a baseline of older cams, with and without blocks, I wouldn't be so quick to question your own actions. You saw Elk, you saw wolves, your other cams you saw cats and Mulies. Does that mean that you created an artificial situation, or that preds trigger motion sensors?

Your Cat cams weren't over blocks, now , were they?
Wolves gotta walk somewhere. Sometimes it's past your cams.
Personally, if that IS what is in fact happening, I might use that as a technique to get wolves. Pattern the prey, then whack the preds.


Well, since artificial licks with trailcams are commonplace in the bush these days, it might be more accurate to think that they actually spread out the animals. Take a mtn in a relatively high hunting pressure area. Say there used to be one natural lick in the area, where now there are several artificial licks on the same mountain. Animals don't go to lick all that often (please correct me if I'm wrong) so I don't think that it would increase an ungulates chance of being preyed upon while going to an artificial lick more than it would going to a natural lick.

Bait piles might be whole different issue since animals feed far more frequently than they attend licks.

I'm sure most of you remember this video of a natural lick in Banff. Predators will tend to hunt where the smell their prey.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MiVWM3SZAY

SSS

[doubled]

Animals don't go to lick all that often (please correct me if I'm wrong)

On our last recent hunt, we inadvertently camped beside a natural lick and the same doe came back everyday and stayed for several hours per day licking this thing. It was an odd sight.

DD

[GoatGuy]

And the unfortunate part is the change will be not benefitical for hunters.......Definitly opened my eyes with the wolves and how intelegent they are. Time to see if they are more intelegent than the predator call......

Apply buttshot's philosophy: As long as there's lead in the air, there's hope!!!

[GoatGuy]

You and I differ from that perspective.......last time I checked, ...technology works. Rumor has it ....., technology is even changing the world.
Use it to your advantage........or ignore it.
I know of a 240" mule deer and a 360+ elk that were taken as a direct result of trail cam recon....using this current technology as a tool.

Trail cams offer quantified evidence of the inventory.
Granted some species ( MULE DEER!!!) are almost impossible to pattern. ....But get just one pic of a giant and your enthusiasm and focus changes in a second.
Just sayin....

Back to the point....we have far more impact on wildlife with our activities..with our hunting practices, with our harvest ..than the average person comprehends or consensus card readers understand.

Now think about how the wolf infestation is impacting game populations.
My eyes have been opened wide after my recent trip to the WK.

My challenge now is what am I going to do about making a change...............

There are a pile of big critters that have hit the dirt directly as a result of t-cams in BC. Even with MD, it narrows down a guys area to hunt. For elk and wt it has been an absolute game changer for a lot of hunters. A pile of guys who couldn't find a gutpile in the past that are now consistently shooting some great critters because of a picture and some gumption to stick to one spot instead of bouncing all over the countryside.

There's a reason they've been banned during hunting season in some of the states.

[Husky7mm]

With wolves exploding the way they are, the next decade will be interesting, bait or no bait. Lots of traditional spots where critters were safe from hunters are now danger zones because of wolves. Couple of the one way basins that were elk magnets are now wolf magnets.

Things, they are a changing. Be interesting to see how things continue to unfold.

It seems to be that much of the back country and hard to get to areas have little to no deer/elk right now and lots of wolf sign.... however not so in some of the "easy" high traffic area's..... nice surprise!! I guess the the elk would rather deal with nimrods racing around in trucks and side by sides screwing eachother over and bugling out their windows than a pack of 20+ wolves. 20+ is right not coffee shop talk I saw a pic. What would escape a pack of 28 wolves... not much I bet? :(
My guess is that the restricted access area's make great preditor breeding grounds, and there will be a big shift in where the game thats left in thoses areas will go.

[BlacktailStalker]

so it is illegal to bait a wolf correct? But not illegal to place bait with the intention to snare or trap it? But not just anyone can snare/trap wolves? I wonder with the C/O's actively trapping wolves in my area, what their stance on the whole baiting wolves over the winter when there are no bears about. It would be pretty easy to locate the highways roadkill dump site, take an animal to an area with wolves and sit on it, but wouldn't want to break any laws doing so. The big problem with wolves is they are so smart, I personally have never seen a live wild wolf...everything else including cougar, but never a wolf.

On a side note I consider my trail cams a hobby more than a tool to find the monster. They are in my favorite place to hunt, I already spend most of my hunting time in that area, and when you get the right setup (no small trees, grasses and good lighting) and find that you have 500+ pictures all of animals it really is fun to sit down and look through them. Its like xmas, you never know what your gonna get but theres always that potential for something amazing. My wife bought me my cams, and she is so happy that I use them so extensively.

YES YOU CAN BAIT WOLVES !
amazing how so many people in BC do not know this, yet dislike them so much. Get a big group of people who hunt to all dump your game scraps, bones etc in the same place and sit that spot whenever you feel like it. Put it in a valley or draw that is private enough to not draw attention (other people finding it or noticing birds etc) and so anything like vehicles or people that might deter the wolves from hitting it during the day arent as much an issue. The deeper and darker the spot the more likely they are going to use it when you can see them. Even put it in an area one guy can sit the pile and one or two guys can sit the ridges and hammer anything coming in to it. With enough guys and a couple hours sitting it here and there, between everyone who adds to the pile, it's reasonable some wolves will hit the ground.

[GoatGuy]

It seems to be that much of the back country and hard to get to areas have little to no deer/elk right now and lots of wolf sign.... however not so in some of the "easy" high traffic area's..... nice surprise!! I guess the the elk would rather deal with nimrods racing around in trucks and side by sides screwing eachother over and bugling out their windows than a pack of 20+ wolves. 20+ is right not coffee shop talk I saw a pic. What would escape a pack of 28 wolves... not much I bet? :(
My guess is that the restricted access area's make great preditor breeding grounds, and there will be a big shift in where the game thats left in thoses areas will go.

Seen the pic as well, even the Minister has a picture of it.

The GPS collar data doesn't necessarily reflect what you're saying, but it does show wolves are covering a pile of ground and certainly have their favorite spots they like to rotate through.

BTW, saw one non-tyd mulw deer, buddy arrowed a 190 and a couple other nice EK mulw deer have been stroked this fall.

[Husky7mm]

Well I can't speak for the whole country but some of my best spots are dead zones now, but that being said we did kill 2 wolves this year in them :twisted: I switched back to some "handier" spots, and well I done kissing and telling but.....
Anyways I saw many of those dandy early season mulie pictures, I was drooling for sure! I think IIRC one was on the edge of the mine...... So?????
I have yet to see a buck over 3 points:oops: It will likely be a little "dry" until the 20th or so...... Not for lack of effort :)

[rocksteady]

This thread has sort of derailed a bit, but still all good....

So the OP thought that MAYBE by putting out licks, it had congregated the animals and thus the predators...

Possible, but however the same is true of all events that change the existing habitat... Prescribed burns, wildfire, harvesting, subdivison developments, highway construction on travel corridors, drought or lack of drought etc etc...

You may be seeing the results at one particular spot (ie. lick and trail cam) but you have to look at the landscape level to see if there is something else that is causing the predators to follow the ungulates into an area where they previously were not....

Just my thoughts and ramblings :)

[Walking Buffalo]

Maybe I misunderstand one of the most basic principals of wildlife management, but isn't taking out a few here and there only helping maintain a healthier (larger) population of any species. The population of predators has to be knocked right down to the bottom. Attempted culls by man in the past have ultimately failed. Them critters are very good at reproducing themselves if the food is there. Sadly I fear a natural crash is the only real solution. Unfortunately our interference and damage to the environment may not make a recovery of other species possible.


Why would you say this?

Past culls have been immensely effective. Take Alberta for example. Major culls took place at the turn of the 1900's, 1930, 1950, and 1980. There were few wolf issues in the meantimes.
Hmmmm...... About thirty years in between culls....

Here is is now thirty+ years after the last major cull in Alberta and we are now experiencing a major wolf population concern.

Culls work. A cull is not a complete extermination, and thus have to be repeated in due course.








There are a pile of big critters that have hit the dirt directly as a result of t-cams in BC. Even with MD, it narrows down a guys area to hunt. For elk and wt it has been an absolute game changer for a lot of hunters. A pile of guys who couldn't find a gutpile in the past that are now consistently shooting some great critters because of a picture and some gumption to stick to one spot instead of bouncing all over the countryside.

There's a reason they've been banned during hunting season in some of the states.


Many states have the forsight to legislate in advance of technology. Wise folks understood that real time remote access cameras were on the way, and took the initiative to stop the use of this technology before the hunting and manufacturing community became indocrinated into their use. Kind of like how some jurisdictions outlawed the baiting of ungulates before it became common practice. It is a lot quiter to not give candy to the baby in the first place than it is to take it away after they have had a taste.

Hopefully all Canadian jurisdictions will show similar intelligence and ban remotely accessible cameras before the next wave of products hit the mass market.

What's next and perfectly legal in most Canadian provinces? Remote controlled toy helicopters with Real time camera and GPS display.

This is a homemade unit we have used for wildlife counts. It has a five mile line of sight range, and provides remarkably clear images and GPS readings accurate to within 10 cm. It was fun to see those rams in the next valley without having to actually climb the ridge.

I think we will use this for an actual hunt this fall just for the evidence to show why this technology should be banned during hunting seasons, except for Wolf Hunting Season. :mrgreen:

http://i772.photobucket.com/albums/yy10/keetspics/DSC01570.jpg

[Ourea]

I don't draw or make the same comparisons as what most of you are saying.
It's simply my opinion/take on the scenario.

Artificial and highly nutritional licks that are deposited in highly sensitive areas have significant impact and drawing power.
Licks can be accidentally put in locations where elk and deer are very susceptible to ambush. The point I am getting at is that the desire shown by animals to risk life and limb for these highly nutritional and tasty supplements should not be passed of ignorantly as "just another" minor habitat change. Artificial licks can dramatically change game patterns. Those changes will be exploited by predators. You, as an individual, are/can be solely responsible for those changes and the resulting repercussions. I don't take that lightly and it has caused me to pause and think about this. I have elected to share my experience and opinion.

We are at the helm of a dozen plus cams at any given time. We see a lot, we learn a lot.
I was amazed at how quickly and aggressively the WK elk habituated to the block and the resulting ambushes by wolves.
I know the ongoing one liner of "this thread is useless without pictures" so here you go.

There was a cow and two calves on the block......next pic is a blurry image of them in full retreat exiting the field of view.
The next pic is the one below.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd428/browndog100/IMAG0390.jpg

[dana]

One can look at this several ways and each person's personal ethics will guide them on how they act. Playing devil's advocate, I can guess that the elk were being eaten by the wolves before the bait was put out. It was just happening somewhere else that you didn't know. Throwing the bait out has just moved the elk from that location to the location you now know about. Move the elk and the predators will follow. Take away the bait, and nothing is really going to change. The elk will find another source (natural) and the wolves will follow them there. Elk have lived with wolves in the Koots for eons. It is the predator/prey relationship. The downside to hunting is that we are not just competing against other human hunters for the same resource. We are also competing against the 4 legged hunters that have no closed season and no baglimits and no ethics against killing at night. They kill to survive. That is a fact of life. When the game pops are high, you will see the predator pops spike to all time highs as well. When it comes to wolves, the game really take a different approach to survive. They change patterns drastically. They hide way more and spend a lot of time being noctural. This makes the hunting super tuff for both 2 legged and four legged predators. It is my belief that lions don't cause this change in activity. It seems to be more of a 'take one for the team' attitude. A cougar takes down a critter and the others relax and go back to feeding less than a hundred yards from the lion and it's new kill.

[Brez]

Wolves are pretty smart and I'm sure will figure out the prey pattern.
What we've (my partners and I) have seen is wolves use human travel routes to get around quicker and cover more ground. Could be that they have discovered your trail and are making use of it and in the meantime found their own little honey-hole.

[Ourea]

I guess I am not being specific enough for my point to be made clearly.
I fully understand the predator prey relationship. No doubt these elk are under constant pressure from the wolves.

So, look at the picture...analyze the terraine.
Note the near vertical bank to the right.
Note the thick underbrush that embutts the opening.
There is another near vertical bank to the left of the field of view.
The elk have only one way to get out. A predator couldn't have asked me to drop a block in a more opportune location to ambush from.
If I dropped the block 50 meters down the trail where it opens up the elk would have a far better escape options and the day to day encounters would be business as usual.
It's less about the use of the block and more about "where" I am attracting the elk to.
Couldn't make the wolves job any easier.



http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd428/browndog100/IMAG0390.jpg

[dana]

I've seen what I considered Sheer Vertical easily climbed by elk and deer in the past. The way I look at that photo is the amount of $hit balsam and brush work in favour of deer and elk and really restrict the movement of the wolves. The wolves really only have 2 options of attack, the natural openings coming in and out. Once an elk goes into that brush, the wolves are beat. What I've found is wolves really need open ground to be effective. When they hunt timber, they try pushes to openings be it man made or natural. I've seen them send scouts into the timber to loop and try to scare up the prey and then have several other members ready on roads or cutblocks where the ambush really occurs. If a critter doesn't have nerves of steel and bolts down hill towards the road, they will be dead meat. If they hold tight in the thick $hit, the wolves can't get er done. When you have consistant wolf pressure, the vast majority of the prey have seen it played out before and learn that the thick $hit is where they must stand their ground.

[new hunter]

Thanks to the OP for the heads up , I still hunt blacktails but I've been debating putting out a few licks here and there .
Definitely gonna be careful about briin in the predaters .

[358mag]

Ourea
Great picture the only thing missing is one of ProGuide66 steel cable neck tie hooked up to that wolf + cut log

[The Dude]

I also agree with Brez on that point.
Logging roads, mining roads, slashes, hell even Skidoo hard packed trails have done more to help wolves than spreading out salt licks ever will.
SSS had a good point about addiing artificial to natural ones, and spreading out the concentrations of ungulates.
I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, Ourea. Heck, if you put the lick in the middle of a huge slough, and put the cam on a stump, it might allow wolves to target the prey more effectively, so who knows?

Bottom line is: How many fresh wolf kills have you found within a 400 M radius of your Salt Cams?

[The Dude]

Noob question: If I'm on private property, and have permission, can I trap/snare wolves, or allowed to shoot only?
(Haven't taken a course yet..... YET!)

[The Dude]

More wolves, more pics. law of averages:

B.C. ranchers estimate wolf attacks on livestock cost $15 million a year

B.C. Cattleman’s Association calls on province to thin the wolf population in some areas

By Tiffany Crawford, Vancouver Sun October 1, 2012

Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/technology/ranchers+estimate+wolf+attacks+livestock+cost+mill ion+year/7322744/story.html#ixzz28TQZbKPY


http://www.vancouversun.com/technology/ranchers+estimate+wolf+attacks+livestock+cost+mill ion+year/7322744/story.html

[steel_ram]

If it's ranchers who don't let hunters onto there land . . . . . tough titty! Better their cattle than our deer. There cost of doing business while encroaching on wild lands.

[BlacktailStalker]

"Although B.C. allows hunting and trapping of wolves, the practice is banned in many other parts of the world. Grey wolves are listed as endangered under U.S. state law because they were nearly wiped out a century ago."


Typical ****ing media, tossing out blanket statements that completely kybosh the chance of so many people on the fence of opinion to understand the truth or reality of the situation. Statements like that put a halt to what needs to be done before the negotiations even start.
More than one state has removed them off the endangered list and listed them as an open species for both hunting and trapping in the last two years.

[Ourea]

Another pic.



http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd428/browndog100/IMAGwolf2.jpg

[The Dude]

D, we should work with UWay and see if they cold make us some frikkin trail cams with frikkin lazer beams on their frikkin heads, so we could remote-detonate bthose frikkers.
Then we could sell 'em! :D

[The Dude]

Took me a minute to see the other wolf in that pic.

[Ourea]

D, we should work with UWay and see if they cold make us some frikkin trail cams with frikkin lazer beams on their frikkin heads, so we could remote-detonate bthose frikkers.
Then we could sell 'em! :D

Im sure we could find a supplier in......say...North Korea
.......

[The Dude]

I get Kim Jong "Ill" Just thinkin' about it.

[Husky7mm]

I've seen what I considered Sheer Vertical easily climbed by elk and deer in the past. The way I look at that photo is the amount of $hit balsam and brush work in favour of deer and elk and really restrict the movement of the wolves. The wolves really only have 2 options of attack, the natural openings coming in and out. Once an elk goes into that brush, the wolves are beat. What I've found is wolves really need open ground to be effective. When they hunt timber, they try pushes to openings be it man made or natural. I've seen them send scouts into the timber to loop and try to scare up the prey and then have several other members ready on roads or cutblocks where the ambush really occurs. If a critter doesn't have nerves of steel and bolts down hill towards the road, they will be dead meat. If they hold tight in the thick $hit, the wolves can't get er done. When you have consistant wolf pressure, the vast majority of the prey have seen it played out before and learn that the thick $hit is where they must stand their ground.

Is this your opinion or a fact?
Are these wolves handicaped or something? They can't smell, see or hear once they hit the thick stuff? There is not 15 more wolves waiting in that timber as the pushers/chasers move them from the opening and travel corridors? Are we talking about the same wolves? The ones that retreat into the thick shit when you shoot at them or kill pack memeber. The thick shit where you trip over the bones from there quarry? I doubt they are a stranger to it..... Again what escapes a pack of 28 wolves, I have been told of 4 packs over 20 just this year alone. You talk like wolves are water on a ducks back for the deer and elk? It paints a poor picture for people. We are in a predator pit right now and sadly if we/they dont throw everything we have at them the wolves will eat themselves out of house and home and be their own demise!

[Darksith]

I thought that generally speaking wolves run their pray down, not lay in wait and ambush them. I also thought wolves would travel the trails/roads paths of least resistance until they locate an animal then basically run it down. All the videos Ive seen of wolves they aren't doing too much travelling through the real thick gnarly stuff, but that could simply be b/c the film makers can't get in there either

[Husky7mm]

From following their tracks and such it seem they fan out often, zig zagging through the bedding areas and "edge" and flush their prey, often to poster ahead or flank, for sure lots of running down, usually the chase doesn't go far.... Much traveling done by our FSR and trails, and of coarse the packed snowmobile trails. These wolves have evolved to be extremely effective killing machines, forming super packs..... Gone are the days of small game and rodents, the old and sick. Everyyear they are compounding in numbers and passing on their knowledge. They need a war waged against them so they will return to the elusive timid predator they used to be in times of small numbers. Not the mob they are today, taking down bison and ripping bears out of their dens to eat them while hibernating.... Eating the ass of a heathy buck before the life has been chocked out of the front. Chasing grizzlys from their kills and tracking lions to theirs and robbing them of it. Predator against predator, it's natural, and we need to do it to!!!

[BCrams]

Clearing also looks like the path of least resistance for animals to travel through. Even wolves will avoid the shintangle of bush you can see. A lot of variables no doubt and the coincidence of habitat features and choice camera location along with baiting certainly can enhance use.

[dana]

Husky,
I have been hunting deer with wolves as my main competetor for over 20 years. I have a lot of bush experience being 'out there' for both work and play. I also have an interest in these critters and read a lot of studies. Unlike you, I'm not going on 'heresay'. Wolves did not evolve as a good killer in the heavy timber. Plain and simple. The lion on the other hand did. Wolves find the killing difficult if they aren't in some kind of opening. Plain and simple. They are not the 'ultimate' predator that can get er done any time and anywhere. They have limitations and yup, the thick timber is a huge limitation to a pack animal. We have had wolves in this province for eons. We have had elk and moose and deer all living here at the same time. While you might like to be alarmest about the situation. I am more realistic about it. I have seen heavy wolf pops in my areas for several years. At least a pack a drainage with many numbering a dozen or more. The hunting has been the absolute $hits the last few years as a dirrect result of the high wolf numbers. But I can honesty say, they have not and will not eat everything. The GPS data is showing they are moving out of here and heading south. Shuswap and North Okanagan. And low and behold, I am finally seeing way way less for wolf sign. As a matter of fact, I've only seen 1 track all fall. And suddenly I'm seeing deer acting like deer should act. They are feeding at their normal times and actually let ya take a picture of 2. The last few years, this was not the case. Direct correlation to the fact the wolves are moving on? You bet. So the wolves will move to easier hunting. And the deer and moose and elk in those areas will have to adapt and I'm willing to bet will start being more timber/noctural bound in behavior. The wolves will kill the easy ones and as hunting gets hard they will move on yet again. For the first time in several years I am seeing twin fawns still with momma at this time of year. A direct result of the wolves moving on and another predator, the black bear, having had a tremendously poor winter with a ton of den death. So as the fawns grow, the deer pops will grow until the wolves discover easy hunting here again and they will be back. They can cover a $hittonne of ground and make huge moves. The Okanagan is their next place to hang out for awhile. The same wolves will also hit the Koots. The Idaho wolves have started leaving Idaho for greener pastures up North. This is the way it is.

[Husky7mm]

Well I should add it a was all IMO, that way the pot and kettle get along:P however to be clear much of what I have states has and does happen. I realize there are cycles.... Man plans and god laughs...... You aways seem to forget diffrreces between the ek and your stomping grounds though and put out your experiences in your area as a trump to mine. I doubt you have stepped foot in the ek for quit some time.... Your wolves are moving on, congrats, ours have not yet, as for bears I have seen more this year than all 8 previously combined. We have many fawn less , calf less ungulates. And no they will not eat all the game, and the sun will rise again too. But if there is anything I can to to make a stink or bandwagon to change the pit we're in than I am gonna say it or do it!!!!

[Husky7mm]

Btw I agree with the bulk of what u stated, and yes some of the hunting been tough, so why down play the problem?

[dana]

Husky,
I stated my opinion about the bait location in the OP's pics. I see a mess of tangled $hit in there and I personally don't see it as the trap that the OP thinks in might be. The pics of the wolves are both coming in the directions I figured they would, in the open areas. You then jumped on me as if I don't have a clue what I am talking about. I'm sorry you think I'm clueless and even though I have gobs and gobs of pictures to prove I indeed know how to kill monster muleys, in your eyes I am nothing but a hack and could never kill a mature critter in the EK if I ever gave it a try. I find it rather funny that you have finally taken my advice and stopped hunting your pitfull spots and guess what, you are now seeing game. As of last year, according to you, the EK's problems were nothing more than the fact that there was an ANY BUCK season there. Now the ANY BUCK season was shot down by a bunch of whinners like you, now suddenly, you have a predator pit problem. HMMM, I guess there is no hope for the EK now. Husky knows all, and has all the excuses in the world as to why he can't kill a big buck. ;)

[Ourea]

I am pleased with the attention this topic is getting. When I started this thread my agenda was somewhat buried inside the topic of baiting and wolves.
The agenda is to bring attention to the wolf problem ....period.
My traditional hunting areas have been spared to date. I know it's coming though. If and when they do show up.....I will pursue them with as much conviction as the Isreali Secret Service hunting down Nazi war criminals. We should all take to that mind set.
My area in the west kootenays went from zero to sixty in one season.
We all talk about the problem.
It appears we all look outside the room for someone, some organization or government to do something about it.
Meanwhile, the problem grows, while most sit on the couch and stab at their keyboards.
The cattle/ranch industry is collapsing. We all know that ranchers did whatever it took to protect their investment. They poisoned, they trapped, they shot any and all threats to their cattle. That aint goin on like it used to.
This void needs to be filled.
We should consider an HBC wolf cull contest.
I would be the first to toss in some prizing.
It would be a start.
Information on techniques, calling, baiting etc could be shared along with real time success.
There have been endless threads about the two key issues that challange our wildlife.
Lack of habitat enhancement.
Predators...specifically wolves.
We can't run around burning the hillsides down but sure as $hit each one of us can take a few sundays in the winter and try and make a difference.
Just a thought.........

[ruger#1]

I am pleased with the attention this topic is getting. When I started this thread my agenda was somewhat buried inside the topic of baiting and wolves.
The agenda is to bring attention to the wolf problem ....period.
My traditional hunting areas have been spared to date. I know it's coming though. If and when they do show up.....I will pursue them with as much conviction as the Isreali Secret Service hunting down Nazi war criminals. We should all take to that mind set.
My area in the west kootenays went from zero to sixty in one season.
We all talk about the problem.
It appears we all look outside the room for someone, some organization or government to do something about it.
Meanwhile, the problem grows, while most sit on the couch and stab at their keyboards.
The cattle/ranch industry is collapsing. We all know that ranchers did whatever it took to protect their investment. They poisoned, they trapped, they shot any and all threats to their cattle. That aint goin on like it used to.
This void needs to be filled.
We should consider an HBC wolf cull contest.
I would be the first to toss in some prizing.
It would be a start.
Information on techniques, calling, baiting etc could be shared along with real time success.
There have been endless threads about the two key issues that challange our wildlife.
Lack of habitat enhancement.
Predators...specifically wolves.
We can't run around burning the hillsides down but sure as $hit each one of us can take a few sundays in the winter and try and make a difference.
Just a thought......... I agree with you 100% , and I am doing my part also.

[steel_ram]

Wolf culls in the most part are a waste of time and effort. Go ahead, shoot them if you see them, trap a few if it makes you feel better but don't think for a minute your making a difference. As I stated before, a light harvest of the wolf population is actually going to be beneficial to maintaining a healthy high population. Just like with other game animals. They've got to crash or move on on their own. The "problem", is basically two legged.

[BlacktailStalker]

Wolves grid search and always run the roads til they catch scent of something nearby enough to pursue. Wolves run roads because it is the least path of resistance, which all animals take when it is convenient and safe for them. Just like you and I.
Wolves are always spread out when hunting, one or two on the road and a pile running the trails parallel to them. More times than not they pinch whatever they stumble upon or are after between each other, as it spooks and runs right into another wolf or wolves. Once one or two grab hold or circle anything in any opening or choked bush, its dinner time. Most all wolf kills I've found are in the thick shit. The last wolf kill I saw in the opening was a mulie doe in the middle of the road in alberta cat hunting. All that was left was a foot and the head, the eye was still moist and I stuck my finger in her mouth and it was still warm. She had bounced out of the timber onto the road and was taken down in less than 20 feet by 5-7 wolves it looked like. Big *******s.
I dont believe the open/thick concept. If anything the trees protect them from being kicked or raked by a defensive bull or buck. They can work around obstacles better than any ungulate.

Its a long shot but one of the best ways to get a wolf is just follow him on foot when conditions permit, quiet snow or whatever til you jump him (keep a squeaker in your mouth or hand) or especially if you're driving and see where one leaves the road (in snow) and you think you spooked it, walk in after it. They can be curious too.

[steepNdeep]

I am pleased with the attention this topic is getting. When I started this thread my agenda was somewhat buried inside the topic of baiting and wolves... The agenda is to bring attention to the wolf problem ....period.


I've been seeing it coming for years also. I've abandoned some of my best hunting spots after the wolves moved in hard. I remember the moment... after months of anticipating the season... opening morning after hiking for an hour in the pre-dawn darkness to be in position at first light. My first bugle of the season was met by a pack of howling wolves & not a peep from an elk for the rest of the hunt. My partners missed a big black wolf as they pulled up to camp & I missed a chance at a big grey on the way out. I gave up on that spot after 2 years of that...

Now, wolves have been spotted within' shooting distance of my front door. Lupus dirt naps will definitely be a focus of mine in the near future...

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Maybe we should offer up a prize for the first "legal" hunter killed wolf in Reg 8?
Haven't heard of any hitting the dust yet?

SSS

[dana]

I am pleased with the attention this topic is getting. When I started this thread my agenda was somewhat buried inside the topic of baiting and wolves.
The agenda is to bring attention to the wolf problem ....period.
My traditional hunting areas have been spared to date. I know it's coming though. If and when they do show up.....I will pursue them with as much conviction as the Isreali Secret Service hunting down Nazi war criminals. We should all take to that mind set.
My area in the west kootenays went from zero to sixty in one season.
We all talk about the problem.
It appears we all look outside the room for someone, some organization or government to do something about it.
Meanwhile, the problem grows, while most sit on the couch and stab at their keyboards.
The cattle/ranch industry is collapsing. We all know that ranchers did whatever it took to protect their investment. They poisoned, they trapped, they shot any and all threats to their cattle. That aint goin on like it used to.
This void needs to be filled.
We should consider an HBC wolf cull contest.
I would be the first to toss in some prizing.
It would be a start.
Information on techniques, calling, baiting etc could be shared along with real time success.
There have been endless threads about the two key issues that challange our wildlife.
Lack of habitat enhancement.
Predators...specifically wolves.
We can't run around burning the hillsides down but sure as $hit each one of us can take a few sundays in the winter and try and make a difference.
Just a thought.........

The interesting thing is the wolves are at a high because the game populations are high. Why? Partly because we ain't hunting them. Why? Because we bitch and moan for our own agendas and get seasons closed down or put on LEH because we want big bucks or big bulls or what have ya. We are of this belief that we can have things the way we want them. If another hunter hunts for meat. F##K him. It is all about ME ME ME. I want trophy animals so I am going to oppose things such as an ANY BUCK SEASON because I want trophy animals. Oppose anything but 6 point only. Oppose anything where any meat hunter might see success. I want what I want. That is it in a nutshell. The last time the wolf numbers were high in the Koots, there was a bunch of cow/calf tags handed out to try to get the elk numbers under control. 30 years later, you still hear guys bitchin' about the slaughter. But...didn't the wolf numbers drop when the elk numbers dropped? You betcha. Chose your poison. You want to have a ton of restrictions on hunting so elitests only can hunt and you will have wolves. Get the whitetail and elk pops down and you will see the wolf populations drop. They will go elsewhere. One thing I know for a fact, hunters killing the odd wolf makes no dint in the situation. It just makes ya feel better. You whack out 5 from a pack, the adjacent pack will move in and take over when the pissposts ain't getting marked. You will have a never ending battle. And if you think in our political climate you'll get another 80's style wolf cull, you are dreamin. We are screwed politically. There is no doubt the Liberals are going down and the NDP is coming in. That is politics in the province. The swing of the pedilum is going the other way. If you want to make this an election issue next spring, the NDP will side with the David Suzikis of the world and leave the wolves to eat everything while hunters sit on the sidelines. Is that what we want?

[Husky7mm]

Husky,
I stated my opinion about the bait location in the OP's pics. I see a mess of tangled $hit in there and I personally don't see it as the trap that the OP thinks in might be. The pics of the wolves are both coming in the directions I figured they would, in the open areas. You then jumped on me as if I don't have a clue what I am talking about. I'm sorry you think I'm clueless and even though I have gobs and gobs of pictures to prove I indeed know how to kill monster muleys, in your eyes I am nothing but a hack and could never kill a mature critter in the EK if I ever gave it a try. I find it rather funny that you have finally taken my advice and stopped hunting your pitfull spots and guess what, you are now seeing game. As of last year, according to you, the EK's problems were nothing more than the fact that there was an ANY BUCK season there. Now the ANY BUCK season was shot down by a bunch of whinners like you, now suddenly, you have a predator pit problem. HMMM, I guess there is no hope for the EK now. Husky knows all, and has all the excuses in the world as to why he can't kill a big buck. ;)

Assumtions, hearsay, bullshit, bias, reading 1/2 of what I am saying..... The usual.... How do you get a hat on ur head.... Ding!!!! Happy hunting

[Mr. Dean]

I agree we/ dana; We as Hunters will NOT make a diff in wolf populations.
Coyotes either.

It either see's a nature induced crash or government intervention.

[The Dude]

And another thread goes fantastically off-topic.

[Husky7mm]

And another thread goes fantastically off-topic.
I wouldn't exactly say that.... Part of this was about wolves, perhaps if someone would stop beating on their skinny chest, and hurling insults every time somebody partially disagrees with them, more would join in on the topic.....:???:

[Ourea]

The interesting thing is the wolves are at a high because the game populations are high. Why? Partly because we ain't hunting them. Why? Because we bitch and moan for our own agendas and get seasons closed down or put on LEH because we want big bucks or big bulls or what have ya. We are of this belief that we can have things the way we want them. If another hunter hunts for meat. F##K him. It is all about ME ME ME. I want trophy animals so I am going to oppose things such as an ANY BUCK SEASON because I want trophy animals. Oppose anything but 6 point only. Oppose anything where any meat hunter might see success. I want what I want. That is it in a nutshell. The last time the wolf numbers were high in the Koots, there was a bunch of cow/calf tags handed out to try to get the elk numbers under control. 30 years later, you still hear guys bitchin' about the slaughter. But...didn't the wolf numbers drop when the elk numbers dropped? You betcha. Chose your poison. You want to have a ton of restrictions on hunting so elitests only can hunt and you will have wolves. Get the whitetail and elk pops down and you will see the wolf populations drop. They will go elsewhere. One thing I know for a fact, hunters killing the odd wolf makes no dint in the situation. It just makes ya feel better. You whack out 5 from a pack, the adjacent pack will move in and take over when the pissposts ain't getting marked. You will have a never ending battle. And if you think in our political climate you'll get another 80's style wolf cull, you are dreamin. We are screwed politically. There is no doubt the Liberals are going down and the NDP is coming in. That is politics in the province. The swing of the pedilum is going the other way. If you want to make this an election issue next spring, the NDP will side with the David Suzikis of the world and leave the wolves to eat everything while hunters sit on the sidelines. Is that what we want?

I woke up this morning...smell of fresh pressed coffee....sunny skies.....dealt with some challenges with overseas suppliers with work.....whatever. Nothing is going to take away from this glorious day. Such a great morning.....caught up on the news.....got a great T time booked at Fairview Mountain.......then logged onto HBC.
Dana, WTF!?
I read, "pis and moan", "me me me", "f#ck him", "hunting elitests", "ton of restrictions", "can't make a difference".
Seriously?!?!?
Where the f#ck did this come from?
I live in a world that is all about making a difference, thinking outside the box, being positive.
You lifted up ur leg and pissed on my world with ur comments. You took something that was presented in a positive light and trashed it.
Get laid, get drunk, do what you need to do to get your negative mojo out of ur system. Keep it to urself. LOL.

[Darksith]

Took me a minute to see the other wolf in that pic.

if you look close, there could be at least 4 wolves in that pic

[dana]

I woke up this morning...smell of fresh pressed coffee....sunny skies.....dealt with some challenges with overseas suppliers with work.....whatever. Nothing is going to take away from this glorious day. Such a great morning.....caught up on the news.....got a great T time booked at Fairview Mountain.......then logged onto HBC.
Dana, WTF!?
I read, "pis and moan", "me me me", "f#ck him", "hunting elitests", "ton of restrictions", "can't make a difference".
Seriously?!?!?
Where the f#ck did this come from?
I live in a world that is all about making a difference, thinking outside the box, being positive.
You lifted up ur leg and pissed on my world with ur comments. You took something that was presented in a positive light and trashed it.
Get laid, get drunk, do what you need to do to get your negative mojo out of ur system. Keep it to urself. LOL.

Don't worry about it. The comments weren't directed at you. They were however directed at Husky. ;) He's a prime example of what I call a trophy hunter wannabee. He'll never get it. For him, it is all about excuses why he can't ever get er done.

[dana]

I actually thought I had a positive spin on the whole wolf issue. I don't know if you caught the latest BC Outdoors Hunting Forecast for this year. Did you see that the only area in Region 3 that the bio thinks is going to be bad hunting this year is the North Thompson due to the amount of wolves? Hmm, didn't notice another area in the province where wolves were mentioned as a area of concern for bad hunting experiences. Why? Because here in the North Thompson we've been getting absolutely hammered by the wolves as compared to the vast majority of other areas in the south. I've live it and yet I still have a positive attitude about the hunting and the ability of the critters to adapt to this pressure. That my friend, should be positive news to you. IMO, this is something that we can handle. Sure it makes killing trophy class critters difficult. But, true trophy hunters love the challenge. We know that killing above average critters ain't ever easy. We don't base our lives on excuses like the wannabees. Instead we go out and get er done regardless of how hard and tuff things are.

[Ourea]

Don't worry about it. The comments weren't directed at you. They were however directed at Husky. ;) He's a prime example of what I call a trophy hunter wannabee. He'll never get it. For him, it is all about excuses why he can't ever get er done.


........well, .still think you should get laid
just sayin.....:smile:

[Darksith]

wow, you are so amazing dana, I hope I can one day be half the hunter you are

excuse me while I go puke.

[BlacktailStalker]

No it wasnt directed at Ourea but it's probably the 100th thread gone this way Dana seriously it is gettin really ****in old.
How about revive it and post the big bucks from the last 3 years in tough conditions and leave it at that?

[dana]

wow, you are so amazing dana, I hope I can one day be half the hunter you are

excuse me while I go puke.


But everyone knows I could never kill a damn thing in the Koots because it is just too challenging there for me right? You might as well go hold hands with Husky and sing Kumbaya and kiss the Koots goodbye because there ain't no hope but to pray. It's all going to hell in a handcart.

[Ourea]

:-D.....wolves....just sayin...

[dana]

No it wasnt directed at Ourea but it's probably the 100th thread gone this way Dana seriously it is gettin really ****in old.
How about revive it and post the big bucks from the last 3 years in tough conditions and leave it at that?


Hmmm,
Who attacked me in this thread? The same wannabe that claimed meat hunters had killed every mewl deer in the Koots. The same wannabe that followed other wannabes that pumped up the masses so much so that they took away the anybuck season in the Koots because there just wasn't enough big bucks showing up at the Big Buck dinners? I get sick and tired of wannabes that think they know how to hunt bitchin about everything. That my friend is what gets old.

[dana]

:-D.....wolves....just sayin...

Yup, I ain't never seen wolves like they have in the Koots. ;) Gone are the days of them eating mice. Everyone hold on to your asses, cause the wolves are out to get that too.

[Ourea]

Yup, I ain't never seen wolves like they have in the Koots. ;) Gone are the days of them eating mice. Everyone hold on to your asses, cause the wolves are out to get that too.


......and we're back......
thank you.

[dana]

Back on the topic at hand, I was serious when I said that hunters don't really make much of a dint. Whackin a wolf sure does feel good, but in the scope of things, that is just a drop in the bucket. I saw a trapper take 8 out of a drainage by early Dec. For a month, never saw another wolf track. Thought to myself, he must have got the majority of the pack. I had a fresh lion track and thought it was finally safe for my hound. Boy was I wrong. Had 6 wolves move in that very night and steal the tom's kill which just so happened to be a nice bull elk. During the next couple of months I packed the rifle with me everyday trying to get those dogs. Never once did they show themselves in the light of day even though their fresh tracks were taunting me everyday. I saw that tom's tracks numerous times that winter, everytime I cut his tracks, those wolves were on his trail. Between that tom and the wolves, 7 bulls were killed out of our small struggling herd. I wasn't the only one after those dogs. But they were able to keep the pressure on the elk. They are not easy to hunt and unless you are a trapper, you aren't going to see tremendous success.

[Mr. Dean]

YAWN..............

I thought about deleting some posts then thought not.
Some times, some things, are best left to be observed.


This thread is awesome IMO and we best keep it on the rails.
Just sayin'. :wink: :mrgreen: :wink:

It ain't about hunter x, hunter b,,,, c,,,,, or d!
It's about the wildlife that we pursue - Lets keep it there.

[Mr. Dean]

Back on the topic at hand, I was serious when I said that hunters don't really make much of a dint. Whackin a wolf sure does feel good, but in the scope of things, that is just a drop in the bucket. I saw a trapper take 8 out of a drainage by early Dec. For a month, never saw another wolf track. Thought to myself, he must have got the majority of the pack. I had a fresh lion track and thought it was finally safe for my hound. Boy was I wrong. Had 6 wolves move in that very night and steal the tom's kill which just so happened to be a nice bull elk. During the next couple of months I packed the rifle with me everyday trying to get those dogs. Never once did they show themselves in the light of day even though their fresh tracks were taunting me everyday. I saw that tom's tracks numerous times that winter, everytime I cut his tracks, those wolves were on his trail. Between that tom and the wolves, 7 bulls were killed out of our small struggling herd. I wasn't the only one after those dogs. But they were able to keep the pressure on the elk. They are not easy to hunt and unless you are a trapper, you aren't going to see tremendous success.

Agree 100% with ya.

And if one looks more at your words, is it safe to assume that the dogs are impacting other pred's too, as in Cougars?
If that cat is going around killing for a pack of wolves, how long before it starts to suffer??


Dogs are smart - Just look at what they can do @ a Super-Dog Show. :lol:

[Mr. Dean]

Another thought.

How many of us, historically, actually pursued pred's before; I mean targeting them and not just hailing lead incidentally while on a deer hunt?
And how many now are gearing up with callers, dogs and such, and really putting in an effort of a specific pred hunt?

[dana]

There are many houndsmen refusing to turn there dogs out in the North Thompson and Suswap areas due to having pissoffed cats rip there dogs up or kill them. After loosing so many kills to a pack of wolves, it is only natural that a big tom is finally going to have enough. Aggressive cats are a direct correlation to intensive wolf pressure. Not only does a hounsmen fear wolves coming in on the bayed up hounds and killing them, they also fear the lion itself just won't tree without a serious fight.

[Ourea]

Back on the topic at hand, I was serious when I said that hunters don't really make much of a dint. Whackin a wolf sure does feel good, but in the scope of things, that is just a drop in the bucket. I saw a trapper take 8 out of a drainage by early Dec. For a month, never saw another wolf track. Thought to myself, he must have got the majority of the pack. I had a fresh lion track and thought it was finally safe for my hound. Boy was I wrong. Had 6 wolves move in that very night and steal the tom's kill which just so happened to be a nice bull elk. During the next couple of months I packed the rifle with me everyday trying to get those dogs. Never once did they show themselves in the light of day even though their fresh tracks were taunting me everyday. I saw that tom's tracks numerous times that winter, everytime I cut his tracks, those wolves were on his trail. Between that tom and the wolves, 7 bulls were killed out of our small struggling herd. I wasn't the only one after those dogs. But they were able to keep the pressure on the elk. They are not easy to hunt and unless you are a trapper, you aren't going to see tremendous success.


They are here.
They are a problem.
The problem is getting worse.
The more focus and discussion on this topic the better. If the voice gets large enough and loud enough other ears will begin to at least listen.

I don't claim to know wolves, their habits, their life cycles.....not like the other animals I target.
No doubt they are a highly evolved species. Having said that no one is going to throw in the towel.
For areas that have a year round season they could be targeted at their dens. Find denning sights.
Not a very sporting or pretty way to target a species but if it's a war all bets on playing fare go out the window.

[WKCotts]

they are in to my spots in the wk as well, tracks this year in spots there have NEVER been tracks - something we are going to have to get used to and deal with


They are here.
They are a problem.
The problem is getting worse.
The more focus and discussion on this topic the better. If the voice gets large enough and loud enough other ears will begin to at least listen.

I don't claim to know wolves, their habits, their life cycles.....not like the other animals I target.
No doubt they are a highly evolved species. Having said that no one is going to throw in the towel.
For areas that have a year round season they could be targeted at their dens. Find denning sights.
Not a very sporting or pretty way to target a species but if it's a war all bets on playing fare go out the window.

[tomcat]

A good wolf:http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon12.png
4140

[frenchbar]

they are in to my spots in the wk as well, tracks this year in spots there have NEVER been tracks - something we are going to have to get used to and deal with

its getting to be quite the problem province wide..and it doesnt take long to wipe out the animal population ..here today gone tommorow..i highly doubt as hunters that we even put any dent in the population..its going to take culling the fers with poison and ariel assaults ect..i just did a long ride out of reg 5 and seen a hell of a lot of sign..the fers are everywhere ..

[steel_ram]

"Poison and arial assaults", to control "The Problem". I sure hope not. Don't want game management to become a totally artificial, man "controlled" failure.

[ruger#1]

It wasnt a failure when they did it in Chetwyn in the 1980s.

[BlacktailStalker]

Just like cats, Im sure wolves know when their 'neighbour' is home, once those wolves were dead they knew it and moved in. Same thing happens when a big Tom hits the dirt. Scent tells all, lack of presence etc.
One thing I don't understand (not that I don't partially agree with it but im not fully convinced) is that direct relationship between wolves and nasty cats or if it actually exists but that would be a derail here so I wont go there.
Dana do you trap at all? Hard to get a line up there like it is here?
For wolves to ever get even somewhat under control the gov needs to step in but even heli culls would be a challenge there I'm sure, it's thick just like the Island. The most effective time would be winter for sure. Too bad it will never happen!

[dana]

I'll open another can of worms for ya. I know this topic won't be accepted by the politically incorrect rednecks that frequent this site but here we go. To see effective predator control we must let the First Nations do it. If you don't have them leading the charge, you are going nowhere.

[dana]

Just like cats, Im sure wolves know when their 'neighbour' is home, once those wolves were dead they knew it and moved in. Same thing happens when a big Tom hits the dirt. Scent tells all, lack of presence etc.
One thing I don't understand (not that I don't partially agree with it but im not fully convinced) is that direct relationship between wolves and nasty cats or if it actually exists but that would be a derail here so I wont go there.
Dana do you trap at all? Hard to get a line up there like it is here?
For wolves to ever get even somewhat under control the gov needs to step in but even heli culls would be a challenge there I'm sure, it's thick just like the Island. The most effective time would be winter for sure. Too bad it will never happen!

The cats here weren't mean up until the wolf population went through the roof. In the last 3 or 4 years, the amount of good, well experienced houndsmen that have lost dogs is mind boggling. Really easy to jump to the wolf correlation when you are knee deep in the *******s.

As for trapping, I don't do it. Haven't got the time nor the resources. I work year round doing forestry work. Can't drop the bread and butter work and chase a dream that doesn't pay the bills especially when you have a family that needs to eat and have a roof over their heads.

[coach]

I'll open another can of worms for ya. To see effective predator control we must let the First Nations do it. If you don't have them leading the charge, you are going nowhere.

Bang on, Dana. IMO - we need to take that a few more steps forward. We need the Cattleman's association, BCWF, Guide/Outfitters Associations involved too. This battle will never be won by all of the major user groups fighting amongst each other. Any idea how we can all bridge our differences?

[dana]

That is where I am sadly realistic and pretty much see no hope at all. I do know that politically we are SCREWED. It would take a major upset to see the Liberals pull out of this tailspin. If the world doesn't end this Dec, I'm willing to bet this upcoming spring we will see the NDP win a majority and we know for a fact, they ain't going to be on our side.

[BlacktailStalker]

Agreed. Agreed.
Allow anyone holding a hunting license "kill" (notice how I didnt say hunt) wolves over bait at night with the aid of a light :cool:

[coach]

That is where I am sadly realistic and pretty much see no hope at all. I do know that politically we are SCREWED. It would take a major upset to see the Liberals pull out of this tailspin. If the world doesn't end this Dec, I'm willing to bet this upcoming spring we will see the NDP win a majority and we know for a fact, they ain't going to be on our side.

Agree again. Somehow we need to unite or they'll be shutting down both wolf and grizzly hunting. Then we're really facked!

[dana]

Then you might as well call us Californicated.

[Ourea]

Agree again. Somehow we need to unite or they'll be shutting down both wolf and grizzly hunting. Then we're really facked!

Ahhhhhhh, coach. Thank you.
You just hit what has been sitting here T'ed up fo a couple days.
People need to be aware and understand that there could be a wind of change coming.
Could be Carte Blanch for the wolves next year.
Best get on it now and see if some roots can grow strong enough to hold if there is a shift to the left next election.

[SavageShooter]

Great Thread Ourea. I started a thread last year somewhat related. http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?75420-Tracking-Wolf-Progression-through-the-West-Kootenays

It seems everyone I talk to around here is noticing wolves moving into areas not traditionally inhabited by the same.
So the questions I have is, are we to belive that the WK is at an all time high for ungulate numbers, therefore attracting the wolves or is it a matter of an all time high number of predators in other areas and they have eaten themselves out of house and home and are looking for a new one (WK)?
The answer to the above would be important for me as it would indicate how long we can expect high wolf numbers.
Dana, you obviously have done you homework on Wolves, what is the cycle lenght of wovles moving into a new fairly game rich area, and ultimatley decling in numbers or moving on due to their hunting success?

SS

[dana]

The GPS collars are showing they move big, I mean really big! Like half the province Big! They are following the easy game. When hunting gets tuff, they move. How long they stay has a lot to do with prey numbers but also has a lot to do with ease of hunting. Some areas and some prey species are easier than other areas. A game rich area like the Koots and the OK is going to see the wolf numbers rise drastically in the next few years as the areas like the North Thompson and North Shuswap have been hit hard and are seeing way lower prey numbers and the prey that has survived has become very difficult to hunt being nocturnal or heavy timber bound. We have had easy winter after easy winter after easy winter in the majority of the province for way too long. This means the prey species are indeed at highs and we as hunters have presured our game managers to practice 'safe' management keeping things like point restrictions, LEH, season limitations ect on our game for way way to long. This is a problem we as hunters ulimately have created. We think we can stockpile game. We think that big bucks and big bulls should be easy to hunt and try to grow them behind every tree. Instead of managing for lower populations, we have over inflated our populations and this large wolf problem has been created as a result.

[Ourea]

Giving a shout out to dana.
Thanks for your information and knowledge being shared.
Your involvement here has allowed this thread to rise and this topic to get some well desreved attention.
You can still be a bit of a dick at times, but I'm good with that. Totally.
I always focus on the message, not the messenger.
Blacktail...I know you know cats like nobody's business..thanks for your input on that predator.
7mm, keep fighting the fight!! Never a dull day when you and dana are in the house.

[frenchbar]

Giving a shout out to dana.
Thanks for your information and knowledge being shared.
Your involvement here has allowed this thread to rise and this topic to get some well desreved attention.
You can still be a bit of a dick at times, but I'm good with that. Totally.
I always focus on the message, not the messenger.
Blacktail...I know you know cats like nobody's business..thanks for your input on that predator.
7mm, keep fighting the fight!! Never a dull day when you and dana are in the house.
keeps this forum interesting anyways ..without the bickering and disagreements on hunting issues..this place would be fairyl boring..its all good ..even i learned a bit reading through the posts ..

[EvanG]

no matter what your point of view, sure makes me wanna do some predator control this winter.

[finngun]

there are way too many wolves.....it is harvest time same as jotes....see them --lead moving fast..:mrgreen:

[358mag]

Any one out there have a lot of extra 10-80 ???

[Husky7mm]

Giving a shout out to dana.
Thanks for your information and knowledge being shared.
Your involvement here has allowed this thread to rise and this topic to get some well desreved attention.
You can still be a bit of a dick at times, but I'm good with that. Totally.
I always focus on the message, not the messenger.
Blacktail...I know you know cats like nobody's business..thanks for your input on that predator.
7mm, keep fighting the fight!! Never a dull day when you and dana are in the house.

Yes a very smart....... Ass !!! I guess I was mistaken, no wolf problem here in the koots, and the mulw deer are abounding:evil:
Nice to have the faceless Internet to hide behind, makes all the skinny folks with big fat heads think they have a pair of big balls between their legs.......

Sooooo how about them facking wolves.......
How does one get their hands on some wack a pack?:)

[Ourea]

Yes a very smart....... Ass !!! I guess I was mistaken, no wolf problem here in the koots, and the mulw deer are abounding:evil:
Nice to have the faceless Internet to hide behind, makes all the skinny folks with big fat heads think they have a pair of big balls between their legs.......

Sooooo how about them facking wolves.......
How does one get their hands on some wack a pack?:)


That's what we are here to explore.
We want wolves dead.

7mm, your involvement and words are appreciated. I respect your backbone and I know you have experience and knowledge in ur area....thus your passion.
You and dana together.........cant get enough of it. LOL.

I'm sure proguide66 could offer some great insight.
Anyone else seen a change in their area .....have experience in trying to deal with it....trying to make a difference.....

[dana]

Husky,
Remember these words "Is this your opinion or a fact?
Are these wolves handicaped or something? They can't smell, see or hear once they hit the thick stuff? There is not 15 more wolves waiting in that timber as the pushers/chasers move them from the opening and travel corridors? Are we talking about the same wolves? The ones that retreat into the thick shit when you shoot at them or kill pack memeber. The thick shit where you trip over the bones from there quarry? I doubt they are a stranger to it..... Again what escapes a pack of 28 wolves, I have been told of 4 packs over 20 just this year alone. You talk like wolves are water on a ducks back for the deer and elk? It paints a poor picture for people. We are in a predator pit right now and sadly if we/they dont throw everything we have at them the wolves will eat themselves out of house and home and be their own demise!"

That was you calling me out from behind the faceless computer wasn't it?

I actually have some experience when it comes to hunting and wolves not just hearsay. If you think that gone are the days of the rodents, well wake the #### up, there never were the days of the rodents. Farely Mowat was a Fairy Tale. Wolves have been ripping bears out of dens since the dawn of time. When you pick an internet war, make sure you have the knowledge to back yourself up. I can give ya a ton of studies that show what happens when wolves over run an area. We gave the Yanks the damn dogs back and Screwed them royally. Now they are coming back over the border and screwing us. They at least had the money to put into studying the things till the Kingdom Comes. You jumped on me about the whole heavy timber thing. It has been proven that is how deer, moose, and elk cope when they have a constant assualt by wolves. It is the Ecology of Fear. They find it better to live in thick $hit with poor quality feed and deep snow depths than to go out in the open and get killed. Do some reading before you pick a fight the next time.

[Ourea]

Husky,
Remember these words "Is this your opinion or a fact?
Are these wolves handicaped or something? They can't smell, see or hear once they hit the thick stuff? There is not 15 more wolves waiting in that timber as the pushers/chasers move them from the opening and travel corridors? Are we talking about the same wolves? The ones that retreat into the thick shit when you shoot at them or kill pack memeber. The thick shit where you trip over the bones from there quarry? I doubt they are a stranger to it..... Again what escapes a pack of 28 wolves, I have been told of 4 packs over 20 just this year alone. You talk like wolves are water on a ducks back for the deer and elk? It paints a poor picture for people. We are in a predator pit right now and sadly if we/they dont throw everything we have at them the wolves will eat themselves out of house and home and be their own demise!"

That was you calling me out from behind the faceless computer wasn't it?

I actually have some experience when it comes to hunting and wolves not just hearsay. If you think that gone are the days of the rodents, well wake the #### up, there never were the days of the rodents. Farely Mowat was a Fairy Tale. Wolves have been ripping bears out of dens since the dawn of time. When you pick an internet war, make sure you have the knowledge to back yourself up. I can give ya a ton of studies that show what happens when wolves over run an area. We gave the Yanks the damn dogs back and Screwed them royally. Now they are coming back over the border and screwing us. They at least had the money to put into studying the things till the Kingdom Comes. You jumped on me about the whole heavy timber thing. It has been proven that is how deer, moose, and elk cope when they have a constant assualt by wolves. It is the Ecology of Fear. They find it better to live in thick $hit with poor quality feed and deep snow depths than to go out in the open and get killed. Do some reading before you pick a fight the next time.


....and the beat goes on.
You guys kill me.
You both grow on me more and more.

You are so different yet so similar.

Hitting the reset button here.........wolves.
Wolves.

[kagia]

They are here, One was shot in Deroche last year. It was close to 100 lbs.

Whaaaat?????
Any links to an article or photo??????

[Walking Buffalo]

The GPS collars are showing they move big, I mean really big! Like half the province Big! They are following the easy game. When hunting gets tuff, they move. How long they stay has a lot to do with prey numbers but also has a lot to do with ease of hunting. Some areas and some prey species are easier than other areas. A game rich area like the Koots and the OK is going to see the wolf numbers rise drastically in the next few years as the areas like the North Thompson and North Shuswap have been hit hard and are seeing way lower prey numbers and the prey that has survived has become very difficult to hunt being nocturnal or heavy timber bound. We have had easy winter after easy winter after easy winter in the majority of the province for way too long. This means the prey species are indeed at highs and we as hunters have presured our game managers to practice 'safe' management keeping things like point restrictions, LEH, season limitations ect on our game for way way to long. This is a problem we as hunters ulimately have created. We think we can stockpile game. We think that big bucks and big bulls should be easy to hunt and try to grow them behind every tree. Instead of managing for lower populations, we have over inflated our populations and this large wolf problem has been created as a result.




The large wolf population is a result of not controlling wolf numbers before they became a big problem where "inflated" populations of ungulates is desired.


Managing for high prey species populations must include ALL sources of mortality. Wolves have recieved a pass from population control for the last few decades, herein lies the catalyst of the problem.

[6616]

Inflated populations of ungulates are never desireable. Populations at, near, or over carrying capacity have high mortality rates, are vulnerable to disease and winter kill through starvation, and do drive high predator populations. As well, reproductives rates are lower and the harvestable surplus is at a minimum.

Herds kept at 50% to 70% of carrying capacity (depending on species) are less vlunerable, have a lower mortality rate, and are vital, healthy herds. They also have a high reproductive rate and harvestable surpluses are at a maximum providing for better hunting.

Inflated populations are a ticking time bomb and pending disaster and never the purposeful objective of game management, like Dana says you can't stockpile wildlife. Killing wolves will not prevent a substantial winter kill or disease outbreak if populations are allowed to become inflated. I'm not saying there shouldn't be predator management, but also ungulate populations have to be kept in line with habitat availability as well and populations should never be inflated or allowed to rise above 70% of carrying capacity.

[GoatGuy]

Interesting how things go on these threads, lots of good information. 6616 brings up some good points that have been totally missed by the hunting community for a long, long time (more than likely forever). We've definitely missed the boat on wildlife management on both sides of the coin.

Many of the areas where wolves are showing up haven't seen them in any kind of numbers in decades (like 40+ years). In the past when a wolf or two showed up they were dealt with pretty darn quick (more than often off the radar). Grizzly, black bears and cougars were also heavily harvested, to the point where some areas still don't have contiguous populations of grizzly bears. The places where wolves have set up shop, and in many cases moved on/starved, have become ghost towns, particularly for moose. The over-whelming majority of BC is now well below carrying capacity and well below the historical numbers of the 70s. Region 5, 6, 7a and 7b have all seen declines over the past couple of decades. In region 3, the north thompson and bonaparte plateau has experienced low calf:cow ratios and high adult mortality, to the point where I wouldn't be surprised if we start to dramatically reduce LEH or could possibly look at temporary closures. The northern part of region 4 is looking pretty bleak. Moose are probably 20% of what they were 10 years ago and in a few spots, they're gone, as are the wolves and the deer. In the US, where they have money to monitor, they've seen huge declines in ungulates in some areas. Wolves do knock prey species back, to the point where hunting for wolves themselves is not viable - eat themselves right out of house and home.

In a 'natural ecosystem' where you have huge tracts of undisturbed land, things probably balance out. When you throw fire surpression in, cutblocks, roads, highways, reservoirs, wildlife fences, oil and gas exploration, snowmobile trails and on and on and on you tip the balance in favour of wolves. Wolves are no different than people, they love to cover ground. They love to road hunt and roads make them way more effective. Even the big reservoirs have created phenomenal hunting grounds because wolves can run both sides of the lake and also have a big opening to drive prey out and on to.

The concept that this is natural or part of the 'cycle' needs to be tossed out. There is nothing 'natural' anymore, so either we manage or we leave it alone. If we leave it alone it won't look go for wildlife, hunters or others that make their livelihood off BC's wild spaces. So goes hunting, so goes conservation.

[Gateholio]

Thanks Goat Guy and 6616

Both excellent points and concepts. It's hard to explain to some that wildlife needs management. People tend to think anything outside city limits is untouched natural spaces.

[Wrayzer]

Very interesting and knowledgable information in here, learning a lot from some of you factual experienced guys.


Thanks Goat Guy and 6616

Both excellent points and concepts. It's hard to explain to some that wildlife needs management. People tend to think anything outside city limits is untouched natural spaces.

A lot of the city folk have the mentality of "let nature take its course." unfortunatly these people have never stepped foot off the ashphalt to see how wildlife needs managment.

[ruger#1]

Very interesting and knowledgable information in here, learning a lot from some of you factual experienced guys.



A lot of the city folk have the mentality of "let nature take its course." unfortunatly these people have never stepped foot off the ashphalt to see how wildlife needs managment. Some of them only beleive what they watch on tv. Pure idiots.

[Mr. Dean]

Some of them only beleive what they watch on tv. Pure idiots.
(insisted!)
The majority of people that "hear" wolf problems", assume it's coming from some greedy hunter that's shot out all the game and now there's only wolves left. :sad:

It's ALWAYS our fault.

[dino]

That's what we are here to explore.
We want wolves dead.

7mm, your involvement and words are appreciated. I respect your backbone and I know you have experience and knowledge in ur area....thus your passion.
You and dana together.........cant get enough of it. LOL.

I'm sure proguide66 could offer some great insight.
Anyone else seen a change in their area .....have experience in trying to deal with it....trying to make a difference.....


I havent seen the wolves yet but the cams have certainly picked up a heck of alot of cats and yotes this year where I never saw pics of them before. I also noticed the muleys are way more nocturnel and definitly timbered up more this season. It sounds like the wolves are coming but I dont know much about cats. Can they have an impact like wolves do?

[GoatGuy]

I havent seen the wolves yet but the cams have certainly picked up a heck of alot of cats and yotes this year where I never saw pics of them before. I also noticed the muleys are way more nocturnel and definitly timbered up more this season. It sounds like the wolves are coming but I dont know much about cats. Can they have an impact like wolves do?

We saw a wolf on the ashnola road this summer - not too far from one of your 'secret spots!'.

[dino]

We saw a wolf on the ashnola road this summer - not too far from one of your 'secret spots!'.

If the ashnola, crater,easygoing, flatop,stirling,southslope or placer is my secret, well I guess you got me. Im glad to see you and your special elite hunting buddys are talking about me and where I hunt. I thought I was just a gutpile chaser to you trophy hero's but it sounds like you chasing my gutpiles. I must be climbing the ladder if Im on your mind so much.:wink:

[OutWest]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_sdBxSCwGruw/TJDl1StewiI/AAAAAAAAAAU/v47vSVVgxas/s1600/smoke+a+pack.jpg

[Husky7mm]

........well, .still think you should get laid
just sayin.....:smile:

I disagree..... some people should not reproduce!!! lol

[Husky7mm]

Great Thread Ourea. I started a thread last year somewhat related. http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?75420-Tracking-Wolf-Progression-through-the-West-Kootenays

It seems everyone I talk to around here is noticing wolves moving into areas not traditionally inhabited by the same.
So the questions I have is, are we to belive that the WK is at an all time high for ungulate numbers, therefore attracting the wolves or is it a matter of an all time high number of predators in other areas and they have eaten themselves out of house and home and are looking for a new one (WK)?
The answer to the above would be important for me as it would indicate how long we can expect high wolf numbers.
Dana, you obviously have done you homework on Wolves, what is the cycle lenght of wovles moving into a new fairly game rich area, and ultimatley decling in numbers or moving on due to their hunting success?

SS


Dont worry about the west koots and wolves its all thick bush..... the provincial authority on predator and prey has spoken from his throne in crazywater, wolves can't hunt the thick shit, they are lazy and somewhat re-tard-ed:confused:
Why they are even showing up there is just down right crazy!!!!

[dana]

One can certainly look at the numbers of depeted moose in 3, 5 and 7 and pinpoint the wolves. But one can also argue that for decades, low harvest due to LEH and point restrictions kept those moose numbers a lot higher than the ever should have been. For instance, How long have we seen no open season down south? And I'm not talking about the pathetic idea of spike/fork. The fear amongst managers was if you opened it up, there would be a slaughter. The pops couldn't handle the pressure. Instead of working together and having short across the board seasons, we have let each Regional manager do it alone, and alone would indeed mean a slaughter so, LEH was the method of the day. With no really data being collected other than Hunter Harvest cards, the managers had no real idea of how many moose they actually had. It was a guess work and managing conservatively was the WAY. Now, where did that get them? Suddenly you are seeing herd numbers down by over 50% from what was 'thought' to be the number. I would say, if they actually had of known the real numbers to begin with, 50% is a conservative estimate. We sat on our asses, didn't pump any money into the system for research and managed Conservatively only to now realize we feed the wolves way too much for way too long. Couple things like mild winters, the mountain pine beetle agenda, demands from trophy hunters requiring even further hunting restrictions and the list goes on, and suddenly we are now in the situation where we are about to loose everything. And here we are, in the midst of something that has gone tremendouly horrably wrong.

[dana]

Dont worry about the west koots and wolves its all thick bush..... the provincial authority on predator and prey has spoken from his throne in crazywater, wolves can't hunt the thick shit, they are lazy and somewhat re-tard-ed:confused:
Why they are even showing up there is just down right crazy!!!!

Why is it always the guys that try to take a run at me that end up crying in the end when they have their cyber ass handed to them? You picked the fight and are whining that I responded back??? I'm confused here. Who targeted who and who is crying in their momas arms saying 'the big bad bully picked on me'? If you couldn't take the heat, maybe you should have just stayed out of it. But, nope, you'll never learn that one will ya. Yup, I'm the dick. You are the good guy that was treated badly. Boo Hoo. Maybe your moma will make you a cup of hot chocolate and let you stay home from school tommorrow.

[dana]

Back to the wolves, why are they in the Koots? Hmmm, just ate themselves out of house and home when it came to moose across much of the province and the smell of elk has just hit their noses. That will keep them busy for quite awhile. But, we should whine about adding more point restrictions instead right?

[Husky7mm]

Husky,
Remember these words "Is this your opinion or a fact?
Are these wolves handicaped or something? They can't smell, see or hear once they hit the thick stuff? There is not 15 more wolves waiting in that timber as the pushers/chasers move them from the opening and travel corridors? Are we talking about the same wolves? The ones that retreat into the thick shit when you shoot at them or kill pack memeber. The thick shit where you trip over the bones from there quarry? I doubt they are a stranger to it..... Again what escapes a pack of 28 wolves, I have been told of 4 packs over 20 just this year alone. You talk like wolves are water on a ducks back for the deer and elk? It paints a poor picture for people. We are in a predator pit right now and sadly if we/they dont throw everything we have at them the wolves will eat themselves out of house and home and be their own demise!"

That was you calling me out from behind the faceless computer wasn't it?

I actually have some experience when it comes to hunting and wolves not just hearsay. If you think that gone are the days of the rodents, well wake the #### up, there never were the days of the rodents. Farely Mowat was a Fairy Tale. Wolves have been ripping bears out of dens since the dawn of time. When you pick an internet war, make sure you have the knowledge to back yourself up. I can give ya a ton of studies that show what happens when wolves over run an area. We gave the Yanks the damn dogs back and Screwed them royally. Now they are coming back over the border and screwing us. They at least had the money to put into studying the things till the Kingdom Comes. You jumped on me about the whole heavy timber thing. It has been proven that is how deer, moose, and elk cope when they have a constant assualt by wolves. It is the Ecology of Fear. They find it better to live in thick $hit with poor quality feed and deep snow depths than to go out in the open and get killed. Do some reading before you pick a fight the next time.

Thanks for quoting me it was a good enough point of view to be mentioned again.:-D

As for calling you out or picking a fight, I merely was disagreeing with part of what you were saying. I am flattered that it bothered you so much you turned into little barn yard rooster, trying to re-educate me and make me look a fool, didnt realize your ears were even open to any sound other than your own.:razz:

[hunter1993ap]

Back to the wolves, why are they in the Koots? Hmmm, just ate themselves out of house and home when it came to moose across much of the province and the smell of elk has just hit their noses. That will keep them busy for quite awhile. But, we should whine about adding more point restrictions instead right?

i called in a pack of wolves one night in the west kootenays. could have shot them with the shotgun but it was dark. havnt seen them since ive been packing a rifle. some guys said this is the first year there has been wolves in the valley. mabey that was why i couldnt get an elk going to save my life, untill i moved locations.

[Husky7mm]

Why is it always the guys that try to take a run at me that end up crying in the end when they have their cyber ass handed to them? You picked the fight and are whining that I responded back??? I'm confused here. Who targeted who and who is crying in their momas arms saying 'the big bad bully picked on me'? If you couldn't take the heat, maybe you should have just stayed out of it. But, nope, you'll never learn that one will ya. Yup, I'm the dick. You are the good guy that was treated badly. Boo Hoo. Maybe your moma will make you a cup of hot chocolate and let you stay home from school tommorrow.

To be clear Dana, I have taken shits bigger than you...... Having my cyber ass handed to me in your minds eye and own little world it doesn not bother me...... I am however embarassed for you about you the assumptions, and lies that you have thrown around about me... GFYS about that!

[dana]

Husky,
Lets hear your experiences with wolves? Yup, your personal experiences, not your girlfriends that you hang out with at the local coffee shop. I don't want to hear what someone somewhere thinks about wolves and how big the so-called packs are. This summer, we met a couple oldtimers in the area we were working who said there was a pack of 35 wolves in there. They were nice enough guys so it must be true right? I ran into a trapper that told me all the deer were dead in the area because the wolves ate them all. He told me he was going to demand the bio stop the mule deer hunt because of his observations. He hadn't seen a deer all fall, so they must be all dead. Told me how many wolves he caught and said one had a collar and it came all the way from the Chilcotin. Also told me that every wolf he had killed had inches of fat on their back. The guy was a nice enough guy so he must be right? But start adding up what he said. Hmmm, wolves are flocking to an area where there is not a deer left alive? They are coming from as far away as the Chilcotin to hunt where there isn't a deer alive? And since these wolves aren't finding deer you could assume they are starving right? But why are they so damn fat??? Sooo, instead of relaying on your girlfriend's rumor gossip, lets here real experiences from you. Tell us all your personal experiences. Enquiring Minds want to know.

[SavageShooter]

Dana, Husky it was somewhat entertaining but lets get back on point it is quickly derailing this important thread.
Dana, I have always respected your input because it is obvious you have a ton of field experience, Husky I assume the same. Lets use that knowledge and typing time on something that will help the average BC hunter.
So how will the average WK hunter be affected by the strong arrival of wolves....
Elk:
Will the elk talk less during the rut. Tough to guage right now as we are still seeing the affects of transitioning to an open season. Less bulls, less competition equals less bugling, no? Now how will the wolf presence affect that. More nocturnal activity, more soft, grunt style vocalizations? Anyone have some input on this.
Whitetails:
More nocturnal activity by both bucks and does? Will be interesting to see the success rate for this years' WT doe season. We certainly noticed a reduction in the sightings of WT does during shooting light. Now again is that because of the introduction of the doe season, because of the increased predator numbers or both? What does this mean for the average hunter?
Mulies:
Back to my original thread about tracking wolf migration through the WK's. We were hunting a traditional mulie stronghold and saw one doe, and that was only after hiking deep into the high forests. No mulie doe season so that can't explain the lack of doe sightings. Can it all be attributed to the increased wolf presence? Dana, here is your time to shine, in areas that are seeing wolf prededation, how does the average hunter adjust his technique to see/harvest mulie bucks?

Anyone that has input please chime in. I think we can all agree that wolves are here. Lets hear how the we can live with hunt around these predators. I talk alot about the AVERAGE hunter, because I am one, and I would assume 80% of this site is as well.

Thanks,

SS

[Husky7mm]

Dana You will have to go back and read thourgh years of my post on HBC.... wolves in the EK have been around for quite some time now and in more recent years they have become a problem in many different area's. I have killed a few and also some of my partners have too... I know its a drop in a bucket but we were happy about it. One less mouth to feed..... I see their tracks all over many of the places I go. I here them howling often... Their shit cover many of the roads I have traveled. I am consistantly hearing of these large packs, it worrys me, I for one am not about to calm everyone down about the impact they are not having on the ungulates. I want people fired up and making a stink. If the natives have to lead the charge than great. That whole roadblock stink in reg 5 IMO was great press.... and I called it then. We will see how it plays out.

As for the future... I think the damage was already done long before it was realized. With a broke ass government and some tree huggers coming to replace them a cull is wishful, but one can dream.... a bounty would help as a few more would gear up to give it a try and also it would help the trappers who actually know how to trap wolves be able to afford to. I beleive the wolf situation here right now is not much different than the last 3. Americans just south can finally shoot them, we shoot and trap them. Some great country with great habitat is almost void of game, and then some is still very good.
Anyone with common sense and logic can pick up on the fact that a fat wolf has ate well, but its what is left for the other stakeholder that I am worry about. You have not been BS's by nice guys before? I have investagated it for myself..... and killed a few and tossed lead at a few more, all the while scouting new country and taking it all in, still a good day in the bush.

[dana]

SavageShooter,
I'm not too sure how the elk will respond to this. The elk in my area acted rather uncaring about the whole thing that was going on around them. Not having a hunting season, some of the bigger bulls were acting alot like elk in Jasper. No care in the world. I had seen wolves in the exact same area numerous times at the same time the bulls were being careless. Not uncommon to have wolf tracks in my own tracks when I was looking for sheds from those bulls. I thought maybe they were just too big and too scarey for the wolves to bother when there were cows/calves in the area that were easier pickings. The cows/calves didn't show themselves much. And when you did see them, 20 cows to a couple calves. But then that big tom moved in and made a big bull kill and the wolves discovered an easy way to eat elk meat. Suddenly, the bulls disappeared. Never saw them in daylight. Shed hunting that spring, I found where the surviving bulls were hanging out, and it was very dense cedar hemlock. Lots of pole sized cedar had the bark stripped like big rubs but chew marks instead of antler marks. They ate cedar and hid. The biggest bull I had photographed for several years survived the onslaught that winter and we saw him in early velvet. It took the wolves all the way till the following fall to catch up to him. I should note, I had an encounter with the cows and calves that spring while shed hunting some steep cliffs looking for muley sheds. The cows were living in the steep $hit and everyone had at least one calf that survived the winter. All looked real healthy. That lion was in those same cliffs and I never found a single cow/calf kill but I did find a big muley buck kill. Spine fins broke and spine twisted backwards on the skull. An obvious cougar kill, not wolf kill.
The one thing I can say is expect to hunt hard and expect to see very little.

[BlacktailStalker]

Never let go on that tom at any point ?

[dana]

Never let go on that tom at any point ?

Had him run across the road on the way to work one morning. I jumped out and chased after him baying like a hound. Almost had him go up too. He hung onto a big fir and then changed his mind and bailed. The next morning I took the day off of work and brought the hound out to get that tom up. A little skiff over night and had newer tracks that I was freshening up with the hound on lead. That is when we jumped the wolves right out of their beds. Talk about chaos. Luckily for my hound, I hadn't turned loose. Heard ravens and knew that lion had something dead there. Found a beauty 6 point bull that the wolves had stole and finished up. Had that tom's tracks numerous times that winter. Everytime, fresh wolf tracks right there with them. So, nope, never turned out on that tom.

[Husky7mm]

In my experience the wolves bust up the whole carcass, many broken bones scattered around, where as on the cat kill much of the carcass remains in tact besides a broken neck.
In the elk spots with a large wolf presents the elk were very flightly, spooky, and reluctant to call, but that being said they are tough to call in much of the heavy pressured country.Super steep country and "handy" seemed to be the ticket this year, and I am sure in the past it has saved many prey from the wolves. The heavy presents of man.....

[dana]

Savage Shooter,
When it comes to muleys, they hit the thickest terrain imaginable. Very few daylight sightings in more open terrain. Even the does disappear. A lot of hard hunting beating your head against a brickwall thinking the deer have just plain vanished. In the last 5 or 6 years, I have found they have abandoned the alpine in the summer. Seems odd, as the commanding view and steep mountain goat country should be a safe place, but at the same time, I have seen wolves numerous times in the highcountry so I guess steep don't bother a dog. Areas where I could easily see a dozen or more bucks in a morning scout, I can't even find 1 deer. Tracks are no existant as well. So they just ain't there. Although, drop slightly in elevation and go into the Rhodo jungles of the ESSF and there is plenty of deer sign. Seeing one, let alone killing one in the rhodo is a challenge to say the least. In my opinion, a hunter needs to focus on the peak of the rut to see success. The rut will drive them out of those nocturnal patterns and give the hunter a chance. I have seen the rut action toned down though as they know they are at risk. The rut seems to take place in the thick crap but if you have snow to soften your noise, it is doable. I have seen success with older age class bucks during this wolf onslaught, so I know the dogs ain't killing them all. I killed one buck a couple years ago that I estimate to be 11 years old. I had watched him and picked up his sheds 6 years previous and then he disappeared. Thought he was long dead. Nope! Just hiding real good. This is why I firmly believe the wolves ain't the end of the world. Big bucks are truly amazing critters and can easily outsmart a dumb dog. One year I wounded a big ol' buck. Actually took out opposite shoulder. He alluded me for 3 1/2 weeks before I finally caught up with him and finished the job. Over that 3 1/2 weeks I saw wolf tracks numerous times right where he was hanging out. If a wounded ol' warrior was able to allude those buggers, it shows how smart muleys can be.

[Darksith]

they went back to being civil...nvm

[dana]

they went back to being civil...nvm

Got to liven this place up every now and then. If everyone agreed all the time, it would become boring rather quickly wouldn't it. ;)

[BlacktailStalker]

Thats too bad. You'll get your chance though.

[Ltbullken]

Now if you go in there and start taking wolves, the wolves might re-pattern themselves away from the salt lick sensing the area as bad jujube and you'll do the ungulate population (and local ranchers) a favour!

[Husky7mm]

I was thinking of some every simple tactics and such that have help me score on wolves and coyotes that are not the usual predator hunting methods, like using a type of caller or sitting over a kill and such. Also a few important facts that some forget.

1. No tag is required!!!!
2. Wolves travel the roads often, have your gun right beside you and always have that clip handy. Wham!!! You round a corner on a logging road and there they are, now is not the time to uncase a rifle and look for bullets or a clip.
3. Dont be afraid take a less than perfect shot.... They are thin skined and not that large of body under that fur. The bullet will likely travel the entire lenght of the predator and get the job done. Most of my kills were made as it turn to bolt or started to run. As GG said if there is lead in the air there is hope.
4. Get a real fast rifle, that extra 200-500 FPS will make all the difference on those less than ideal shots!!! He's in the cross hairs when you squeeze, he's hit.... Albeit you shaking freehand with no rest.
5.Carry some type of hand pred call at all times, like a fawn call. Many coyotes and a few young wolves have ran back out on the road after being spooked off of it to investagate the sound. Boom!!!!
6. Dont be afraid, wolves are a coward to man for the most part and won't eat you. If he goes in the bush follow....
7. If hunting in pair when wolves are encountered, great! One goes off to follow the wolves the other post to shoot, they may cross agian in short order. If the road zigg zaggs up the mountian the poster should get up to the next road ASAP and the follower push. Trust your partner is not a trigger happy moron with buck fever but to be safe make some noise when stepping out as adrenaline can run high at this time.
8. Return again even if some shooting has happened, a student here shot a young wolf and left to a vantage point to call his father with the news. Dad says I would like one too. Son goes back and the wolves were still around!!!! Boom he gets two, same day, same spot! A good friend took 5 in two seperate outings same road, same week!! Return!
9. Howl!!! It works
10. Investate the ravens, rifle ready to shoot I might ad!
11. Year round scouting for other things!
12. Don't incriminate yourselve!!!! LOL

To many this is common practise, but to many they are green and haven't though about it.
These simple ideas, habits, tactics, have helped me put them on the ground as opposed to just getting a glimps of them only to live another day!
Very soon its likely the province will see no bag limit no closed season, this will be good for people can't remember what the regs say.
What, there is a ----ed season on wolves???

[dollyp]

If you don't mind me asking .. what do you feel is the best commercial lick available?

[Ourea]

Now if you go in there and start taking wolves, the wolves might re-pattern themselves away from the salt lick sensing the area as bad jujube and you'll do the ungulate population (and local ranchers) a favour!

Ltbulken, earlier in the thread someone else suggested I get a local trapper involved to help resolve the problem.
You didn't read what the response was for this novel idea.
Issue being, this location is 10 km in on a trail that we chainsawed and grub hoed into some very nasty country. If you wish to take on a full days back in on the side of 30 to 45 degree slopes to just shoot at them.......feel free.

I just returned from there tonight.
The issue is serious, more serious than I had initially thought........and it is only going to get worse.


I

[Elk-Aholic]

And most importantly #13. When there's lead in the air, there's hope!


I was thinking of some every simple tactics and such that have help me score on wolves and coyotes that are not the usual predator hunting methods, like using a type of caller or sitting over a kill and such. Also a few important facts that some forget.

1. No tag is required!!!!
2. Wolves travel the roads often, have your gun right beside you and always have that clip handy. Wham!!! You round a corner on a logging road and there they are, now is not the time to uncase a rifle and look for bullets or a clip.
3. Dont be afraid take a less than perfect shot.... They are thin skined and not that large of body under that fur. The bullet will likely travel the entire lenght of the predator and get the job done. Most of my kills were made as it turn to bolt or started to run. As GG said if there is lead in the air there is hope.
4. Get a real fast rifle, that extra 200-500 FPS will make all the difference on those less than ideal shots!!! He's in the cross hairs when you squeeze, he's hit.... Albeit you shaking freehand with no rest.
5.Carry some type of hand pred call at all times, like a fawn call. Many coyotes and a few young wolves have ran back out on the road after being spooked off of it to investagate the sound. Boom!!!!
6. Dont be afraid, wolves are a coward to man for the most part and won't eat you. If he goes in the bush follow....
7. If hunting in pair when wolves are encountered, great! One goes off to follow the wolves the other post to shoot, they may cross agian in short order. If the road zigg zaggs up the mountian the poster should get up to the next road ASAP and the follower push. Trust your partner is not a trigger happy moron with buck fever but to be safe make some noise when stepping out as adrenaline can run high at this time.
8. Return again even if some shooting has happened, a student here shot a young wolf and left to a vantage point to call his father with the news. Dad says I would like one too. Son goes back and the wolves were still around!!!! Boom he gets two, same day, same spot! A good friend took 5 in two seperate outings same road, same week!! Return!
9. Howl!!! It works
10. Investate the ravens, rifle ready to shoot I might ad!
11. Year round scouting for other things!
12. Don't incriminate yourselve!!!! LOL

To many this is common practise, but to many they are green and haven't though about it.
These simple ideas, habits, tactics, have helped me put them on the ground as opposed to just getting a glimps of them only to live another day!
Very soon its likely the province will see no bag limit no closed season, this will be good for people can't remember what the regs say.
What, there is a ----ed season on wolves???

[Husky7mm]

It's in there. Lol

[Elk-Aholic]

It's in there. Lol


Just felt that it deserved it's own line, and a lucky #13 kinda suits it hahahahaha

[Husky7mm]

Just felt that it deserved it's own line, and a lucky #13 kinda suits it hahahahaha

For sure. Shoot man, SHOOT!!!!!!:twisted:

[Sofa King]

I have yet to see any results from trail cameras in this province that make me think I need one. I had one of the old film style ones years ago and only got one roll of film from it with nothing but clouds and a spiker on it and then the camera ate the second roll and wouldn't work again. I had set it on a natural lick where I had observed big buck tracks on a regular basis. Never felt the need to get another after that bad experience. But I can tell ya I had observed both lion and wolf tracks on that lick in the past and in the time since. Makes sense as the predators will be where the target animals hang out.

they are like a fishfinder.
they help you to learn an area.
basically, they help you know if you are wasting your time in a certain area.

my view of them, is that they add some excitement to the journey.

[tomahawk]

My hats off to you for great decision making.