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moose2
09-06-2012, 11:22 AM
After reading about the moose that Darksith and his partner shot last week, it reminded me of how tough an animal in the water can be to deal with. So I thought a thread of pictures and stories about big game taken in or near the water would be neat. Please feel free to add on, and they don't need to be from this year either. Any story from every season would be great.

I have dealt with this a few times these are my stories.

It was early September in 7-23 I had been hunting moose for a couple weeks without much luck.
I had two days left on my holidays when I found a great swamp with lots of sign. I walked a few km and figured I could retrieve a moose with a canoe if I had too. I knew it wouldn't be easy, but with less than one full day left to hunt it was worth a try. So at first light the next day I started walking into this swamp channel with a series of beaver dams across it. I was about 3.5 km back into this swamp when a large bull steeped out at about 70 yards, he was about to cross a beaver dam. I let a shot go at his ribs with my 280 rem. All I saw were legs flipping over, and then a huge splash of water. This is what I found when I approached.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/solo_moose_0001_Medium_.jpg


So I knew going back for the cum-along, saw, and canoe would be about a five hour trip. So I had no choice but to gut him where he was. So I was in neck deep water trying to pull a wet moose to shore I didn't get him to far and was forced to gut him in the water.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/solo_moose_0004_Medium_.jpg

This was after the guts were out, he would have to stay here until I returned.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/solo_moose_0002_Medium_.jpg
I returned from town 5 hours later on my own, because it was a work week I was not able to find any help. My wife had offered, but with her being 6 months pregnant it was not worth the risk.
I was able to get the bull on shore with the cum-along and then quarter it with the chain saw.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/solo_moose_0003_Medium_.jpg

I went to lift the first quarter in the canoe and I could barely move it. What now I thought I did not want to skin it or cut it smaller in fears of getting the meat dirtier than it already was.
So I sunk the canoe and pulled the quarters into it. When all four were in place I proceeded to bail the canoe with an ice cream bucket until it was floating again. I loaded the rest of the gear up and was on my way a couple hours before dark.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/solo_moose_0005_Medium_.jpg

I realized my plans for lifting the moose out of the canoe at each of the 7 beaver dams and then reloading on the other side would not happen. So I took my chain saw and cut a canoe size slice in the dam and floated it through. It worked great, but took lots of time, it was about 2am when I had returned to the quad which was still 400 meters through the timber away from the truck.
I dumped the quarters back in the pond a pulled them out with the quad. I was able to turn the canoe upside down and roll the quarters onto that, then one more roll onto the quad racks. I took the first half to the truck backed up the ramps and dropped the first quarter in the box, turned around and did the same with the second. I went back for the last half and while I was loading the front quarter the leg swung around and broke my quad headlight leaving me in the dark timber with 400 meters to go. I could not see anything so I walked the swamp edge back to the road. I then started my truck and pointed the head lights towards where the quad was.
I made it back to the quad and just slowly headed towards the light it worked OK. I drove the quad on the truck and decided to leave the canoe for another day. I arrived home 2 hours before work started it was 4:30 am. I called the supervisor and asked if I could be a bit late while I dealt with skinning and cleaning. After hearing the story he said to take the full day off. I was happy about that. It turned out the moose was tough to chew so I learned my lesson about shooting a moose near water right??????? WRONG
more stories to follow.
Mike

Sasquatch
09-06-2012, 11:29 AM
Wow! Now that's working for your meat.

skibum
09-06-2012, 11:30 AM
Man that sounds like it sucked big time. I was hoping for it tasted great at least

coach
09-06-2012, 11:34 AM
Great story! Looking forward to a few more wet tales.

Jehiah
09-06-2012, 11:35 AM
Some serious ingenuity there mooser! What a night, what a night. I have gone swimming a few times to free wrapped line from snag and logs in order to land fish and have full faith that I too will not learn a thing from this thread! My day and night will come I am sure of it.

Jetboat
09-06-2012, 12:00 PM
My first bull dropped in a creek a few hundred yards from an old logging trail down in Adams Lake country. Us two skinny teenagers made a hell of a mess hacking it up but we got that big bugger home in about 6 pieces. Never shot a moose in water since and I've turned down a few that were standing in swamps. Living in the north, there's always tomorrow ;)

dragonslayer
09-06-2012, 12:28 PM
Sounds like you had lots of fun:smile: to bad the moose was tough, but shitt happens.

budismyhorse
09-06-2012, 01:26 PM
wow...........just wow........that sounded like one hell of a day. Good for you to keep up with it and get the job done.

betcha won't do that again!

reminds me of some of the awefull places I used to hunt elk..........now we just look up at them and laugh.

Darksith
09-06-2012, 01:35 PM
Personally I don't worry about where I am when I shoot something...Thats looking too far into the future. Its definately nicer to have colder temps so you aren't in a panic worrying about meat spoiling. I think this thread is a great idea though. I find that keeping an open mind, attempting to think outside the box sometimes will get you to your end goal easier or quicker...like sinking the canoe, that was a genius idea, I will definately put that one in the book of tricks. Hope I never need to pull it out, but who knows where the next animal will fall

Ron.C
09-06-2012, 02:28 PM
Good thread for the start of a hunting season. Agree, you need to consider what it will take to get an animal out before the trigger gets pulled. Great job a sticking with it and getting it done.

moose2
09-06-2012, 02:32 PM
It was August 2003 I still had a couple days off work so I decided to head from Mackenzie to Chetwynd for moose opener. I was looking for spot I had hunted before with a beaver pond near a cut line. So I went in the evening before and got mixed up with the roads due to the alders growing so much. I was on the wrong road about 50 minutes before dark when it started to pour. The road turned to soup and I slid in the ditch while trying to turn around. STUCK so that is where I spent the night. I was well off the road if anyone had wanted to get by. So at first light I chose to go for a walk and I would deal with the truck later. I saw one cow, but while walking I found the road I had been looking for.

After a few hours I went back to the truck to get it out. It was a standard so I was able to put it in four low and first gear. This would keep the tires turning and the engine running. I then hooked the quad to the truck and the quad winch to a tree. Between the truck tires turning and the quad and the winch pulling I got out. Once I hit solid ground, I just had to run back quick and take the truck out of gear before it ran me over. :-P
The ground also dried a bit during my walk which helped as well.

It was now late morning so I parked the truck and quaded to the beaver pond to look for sign. As I approched I saw a moose at the back of the pond and another in the middle with just its shoulders showing. Neither animal heard me so I jumped off the quad and waited to ID them one cow and there was a 3 point bull in about knee deep water. I shot at about 150 yards and he fell over. He was in a couple feet of water and nicely kicked himself into about 5 feet before dying.

So I stripped to my underware and left my boots on incase I was able to reach the bottom anywhere, and swam a rope out to him. He floated good with his guts in I was able to pull the rope hand over hand till he was near the cut line and I could reach him with the quad winch. It was in the high 20's that day so I wanted to move quick. So if someone had turned the corner they would have seen a guy gutting a moose wearing only underware and hunting boots. LOL It all worked out well and this guy tasted great.
Mike

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/august_15_2003_Large_.jpg (http://javascript<strong></strong>:;)

finngun
09-06-2012, 03:30 PM
good story moose2.... i was getting really tired after reading all that work work...work well i'm over the hill anyways..:rolleyes:

Grousedaddy
09-06-2012, 03:40 PM
Gets me pumped for my moose hunt nxt week! Love the detailed stories with pics and all the great ideas that come with them

4 point
09-06-2012, 03:53 PM
Hunting on a northern BC flyin trip back in early 80ies. An area I new well and had hunted a a number of times. Took a friend who had never shot a moose but had seen pictures of big bulls and he had a downright devotion to getting a big bull on this trip with me. Now there were moose eveywhere in that country at that time but when your flying in and out in C185 on floats we didn't shoot many moose. Goats, stone sheep and maybe a big caribou yes. Well in we go and see lots of moose, he wants to shoot everyone of them because each one to him is a big one. I tell him no, no wait until we find one at least 50" or more and he agrees but of course doesn't really appreciate what a 50" + bull would look like or how to judge a big bull.

One day were walking down the trail toward the western end of the lake to go and check out some swamps and river bottom. And there standing in the water feeding, with water half way above his legs to his body is a big bull...for most southerners first bull at 52" a fine speciman. My partner gets all excited and I try and calm him down. He is shaking and the adrenelin is really pumping. The wind was favorable and I said lets wait here in cover until he wanders to the shore either straight back or to his left. The bull is looking around while muching on the sparse water plants but doesn't wind or see us. My partner has the gun up then down saftey on then off. I tell him wait we don't want to shoot him in the water under any circumstances. There is only the 2 of us, no boat, winch, help etc. Finally the bull slows down his eating and is looking our direction more often when he lifts his head up. I said wait so many times that I was getting really pissed off. Finally the moose truned a bit left in our direction and staired straight at us. Not a good shot under any circumstances. I knew but didn't say anything the gig was about up. I figured he would bolt for the shore for sure and not go for a swim in deeper water. When he hit shore we'd give a call and when & if he stopped before hitting cover and turned maybe get a kill shot. Before I could say crap the bull turned and took one step towards shore and bang my partners old 308 speaks. Well the bull shudders and I have to yell, hit him again. He does and over goes the bull on his side into the water. Well let me tell you I wanted to wack him along side the head for what he had legally just done. What the heck are YOU going to do now I said. Oh well we'll just throw a rope around the 1 horn sticking up and drag him to shore, gut, quarter him etc he said. I said I don't think so.


Around to the closest point on the lakeshore we go. I tell him to take off his boots, rollup or take off his pants and out you go in the frigid cold glaciier fed water and rope your moose and drag him to shore. He says what am I going to do while he is doing that. Oh I said I'll find firewood and light a big fire beacuse sure as heck when you get the moose to shore you'll be freezing, hypothermic, near death and I'll try and save you with the heat of the big fire. Well long story short we both went back and forth from shore many times warming up when we could and back out to gut, get the horns and recover some of the meat. To get the horns off whole with the one end stuck in 18" of mud at the bottom of the lake was a choir. The whole processs was brutal on a fairly mild September day which could have been away colder. He hung the horns on a big tree on the entrance to his driveway in an interior town and the mice and whatever over the years chewed away at it and it hurt me more than him to see that. Eventually he sold the house and moved to Vancouver Island becoming with his wife drunks. Sad personal end for them. My guess is he left the horns in the tree when he moved and the new owner perhaps threw them away or maybe there still there. Lesson learned don't shoot a moose in the water

kyleklassen
09-06-2012, 04:10 PM
Shot 1 years ago on the side of the road up babine way and it ran across the road and landed in a beaver pond.popped an assload of wheelies on the trike yanking it out.Oh yeah forgot the knife too, old man gutted and quartered it with a little kershaw with 2 " blade.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/scan0108.jpg (javascript:;)

swampthing
09-06-2012, 08:33 PM
My boys tortured me by shooting 2 moose in a lake at the same time. They were 11 and 13 and werent alot of help. Got the 2 moose right to shore but couldnt pull them up onto dry ground. I boned out one side, rolled em over and repeated. Took a while. Feet went numb, sore back. Lotsa fun.
http://i806.photobucket.com/albums/yy342/eberlestock/bobspictures159.jpg
http://i806.photobucket.com/albums/yy342/eberlestock/bobspictures161.jpg

swampthing
09-06-2012, 08:35 PM
Another moose took some wading but got it up to dry land.
http://i806.photobucket.com/albums/yy342/eberlestock/DSCN1810.jpg

kootenayelkslayer
09-06-2012, 08:40 PM
Some of those moose pics look like a horrible time!

Here's a couple wet ones from last season:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q223/mikeb04/108_45861024x768.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q223/mikeb04/108_47721024x768.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q223/mikeb04/108_47851024x768.jpg

North
09-06-2012, 09:06 PM
http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee414/northyukon/PA020075.jpg
I guided my good friend and he shot this moose after I called it out of the willows on the other side of the river. He shot it through both lungs and it stood there. I told him to shoot it again. He hit it in the lungs again and it proceeded to charge into the river and fall over dead. We were all pumped and high fiving until it started floating down river...



http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee414/northyukon/PA020080.jpg
We tried to winch it up on shore with our come-a-long but didn't have enough rope

http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee414/northyukon/PA020079.jpg
We ended up tying onto it and floated/dragged it down the river until we could find the right spot to attempt again. Pretty interesting as the rack kept scraping the bottom

http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee414/northyukon/PA020086.jpg

Finally found the right spot and got it into position and slowly got it up out of the water

http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee414/northyukon/PA020088.jpg
Got it out and proceeded with buisness.

Lesson learned on having proper rope. That experience just solidified the importance of having the judgement about when to shoot an animal in a good place to recover it from. Good thing it wasn't a huge moose. Also think I need to buy a chainsaw winch!

Good2bCanadian
09-06-2012, 09:50 PM
Great posts!
keep em coming

moose2
09-07-2012, 02:01 PM
It was early October 2009, I hiked about 4km in to a sub alpine lake to look for a moose. It was mixed rain and snow with low visability so i thought finding a spot under the spruce trees and calling was my best option. I sat with my hound in a spot along a lake shore where I had a decent area to look around in. I got an answer after about ten minutes of calling. So I kept working this bull until he finally appeared on the game trail that circled the lake. I was able to see his antlers well when he was about 60 yards away. He was 3 on the brow, on dry ground and facing the timber. So I decided to take him. When I shot he turned and ran directly into the lake. He was about 70 yards off shore in chest deep water. He started to wobble, and I did not want him to die in the lake so right or wrong i came up with a plan . He hadn't seen me yet, so I made the decision to bust out of the trees in hopes he would spook and make it to the far shore about another 70 yards. It did work and once he hit the far shore I was able to give him one more to finish him on dry ground. I was not looking forward to deboning a moose in water and felt this was best option. It was a long pack it took four trips and I finished after dark as it was. I am guessing it would have been two uncomfortable days if he had died in the lake.
Mike
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/toad_river_016.jpg (http://javascript<strong></strong>:;)

Trekker
09-07-2012, 03:14 PM
This young bull was taken in 6-09, late Oct 2010 at roughly 9:00 am opening day. We were lucky to drop him on this small peninsula as he was traveling through the large swamp.

http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u482/tristanmacdonald/Morice%20Lake%20Moose%20Hunt%202010/PA190463.jpg

The swamp

http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u482/tristanmacdonald/Morice%20Lake%20Moose%20Hunt%202010/PA190466.jpg

We managed to gut him on the peninsula, then being lazy moose hunters we decided to rig up a network of pulleys and rope to haul him by truck up the bank, into and through the swamp, then on to the next grassy bank where we would have better access to him. 50 yards of pulley jammers, rope breaks and antler snagging later, we had him on the next bank.

http://i1070.photobucket.com/albums/u482/tristanmacdonald/Morice%20Lake%20Moose%20Hunt%202010/moose.jpg

On the bank, we cut him in half and pulled him through the grass up to the road. Where we winched the half's up a large tree and lowered them into the back of the truck. Not the most common way of hauling a moose around, but we didn't have to carry any quarters so we were happy :)

Cheers, Trekker.

whitetailsheds
09-07-2012, 03:18 PM
Wished I had pics of this one, but in hindsight, glad we didn't stick around to take photos.
Buddy called me up one evening to help retreive a bull moose. "Sure, no worries, I'll be right out".
Buddy tells me to bring my chest waders as the bull is in about 4 ft of water, small pond. "Yep....no worries, I'll bring them with me".
Travel out about 45 minutes, meet buddy, unload quad, head to the downed, floating bull in the dark.
Get to the pond, which is about 1/4 mile from trucks, down a cutline.
Turn lights of bikes to start scanning pond to find moose and start swimming, so to speak! Before we get the lights on the water, we find the bull on shore. ALL the way on shore!!
"Thought you said the bull was in the water?"
"It WAS!!!"
Pull the bikes up closer to the bull and start seeing something you really don't want to see in the dark.
The bull had an ear missing. Strips of open flesh on the head/ neck area, and chunks missing from the hind quarter!!! NOT GOOD!!! Out come the rifles!!! A few loud shouts of some choice words. Scanned the bush surrounding us with flashlites, headlamps, and the headlites of the quads. HOLY FACK!!!
We bravely (or stoopidly, depends) hooked up the bull to one of the bikes and pulled him out to the road and trucks.
Gutted him. Loaded him up, and left to tell the tale!!! But there is more....
Went back the next day at 10:00 AM, to find that Momma grizzly and two little ones came looking for their moose. Right to where we loaded it up!!!!
Still talk about that one each year.......

tomahawk
09-07-2012, 03:40 PM
Dead in the water and an elusive 2 point to boot!!

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj230/tomahawktom/Moose09023.jpg

4099

moose2
09-09-2012, 11:20 PM
It was spring 2007 my wife and I were filling out our LEH draws. She wanted to hunt moose a few times close to home. So my hunting partner said he had a honey hole he would send us too if she got her draw. It was late September so we decided to pack a canoe in on our quads and call for a bull while my daughter was in school. We got to the lake around 10:00 am and planned on about three hours of hunting. The lake we were in was about 600 yards long by 400 yards wide so we picked a shoreline near the middle and began calling. After 20 minutes we heard a distant grunt. All of a sudden a moose crashes out the bush and jumps in the lake and puts its head down to drink. We were hoping for the best when it lifted its head, not this time it was a large cow. She drank and splashed around for about 5 minutes,and then drifted into the trees. About 30 minutes later across the lake out came three more and they all walked into the lake as well. I looked through the bino's there were two cows and a young bull. The bull was about 350 yards from us and a tough shot from a canoe so I told my wife we would slowly paddle towards them using a couple low grunts. I made one paddle as the water dripped the moose looked up, then they started to swim right towards us. so we tucked against shore and waited.

I told her when the bulls feet hit bottom and his chest gets exposed she should shoot. Once he hit shore he was fully out of the lake in seconds that's when her gun went of. He reared back and then forward and ran into the lake shore alders and stood there. She took two more shots and dropped the bull on her last. We got some photos and proceeded with clearing a couple alders so we could dress him out. We gut and quartered him, loaded the canoe and headed back to the quads. We took half out on the first trip. My wife said she would stay at the truck to warm up while I went back for the second half. When I returned about 20 minutes after we had left with the first half. I could't believe it, right by the canoe were standing a large cow and a big 3x3 bull. I only could have got a 2 point that year so I watched him walk. It was a great day and we headed home in time to pick up our kid from school.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/Danette_s_moose_2007_0001_Large_2_.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=27786&title=danette-s-moose-2007-0001-large-2-&cat=500)

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/Danette_s_moose_2007_0002_Large_.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=27787&title=danette-s-moose-2007-0002-large-&cat=500)

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/Danette_s_moose_2007_0003_Large_.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=27788&title=danette-s-moose-2007-0003-large-&cat=500)

moose2
10-08-2012, 08:43 PM
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b634/lostindian71/Moose%20Oct%206%202012/image_zpsa111bfbf.jpg

http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b634/lostindian71/Moose%20Oct%206%202012/image_zps29622545.jpg

http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b634/lostindian71/Moose%20Oct%206%202012/image_zps22453106.jpg

http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b634/lostindian71/Moose%20Oct%206%202012/image_zps70dbf1a2.jpg

http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b634/lostindian71/Moose%20Oct%206%202012/image_zps3e50e78b.jpg

more info http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?87270-My-First-Moose

Jagermeister
10-08-2012, 09:25 PM
I only dumped one in the water, but the story pales by comparison to your tale of woe Moose2

Beard
10-08-2012, 09:45 PM
very entertaining thread, will keep that in mind when i go for moose

moose2
11-04-2012, 10:53 PM
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd75/ElectricDyck/Blacktails%202012%20with%20Jeff/IMG_0687.jpg

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd75/ElectricDyck/Blacktails%202012%20with%20Jeff/IMG_0699.jpg

more info http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?87897-Trophy-Blacktail-Hunting-2012/page9

Gr8 white hunter
11-05-2012, 07:20 AM
How was the meat with all that swamp water on it?

moose2
11-05-2012, 08:59 PM
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/Zubris21/IMG_0246.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/Zubris21/IMG_0249.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/Zubris21/IMG_0260.jpg

more info http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?88509-Late-September-Moose-Hunt

moose2
11-06-2012, 08:59 PM
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/CIMG3880.JPG (http://javascript<strong></strong>:;)

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/CIMG3877.JPG (http://javascript<strong></strong>:;)

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/CIMG3886.JPG (http://javascript<strong></strong>:;)

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/CIMG3888.JPG (http://javascript<strong></strong>:;)

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/100_1137.JPG

pictures submitted by little moose http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?88550-2012-moose-adventure(pic

Sofa King
11-06-2012, 09:23 PM
wow moose2.
i got exhausted just reading about your tales.
and by yourself too.
how much water flooded through when you cut the dam open?

BlackwaterMerc
11-06-2012, 09:35 PM
Wow, this is a great thread. Its a whole new retrieval process in the water, goes to show you can never be ready for everything.

Sofa King
11-06-2012, 09:51 PM
Wow, this is a great thread. Its a whole new retrieval process in the water, goes to show you can never be ready for everything.

isn't that the truth.
myself, i think i'd be passing or waiting for the animal to walk to the shore first.
i ain't lazy, but i'm not into doing a butt-load of extra, unnecessary work either.

moose2
11-07-2012, 04:19 PM
wow moose2.
i got exhausted just reading about your tales.
and by yourself too.
how much water flooded through when you cut the dam open?

I cut the dam just wide enough to get the canoe through, as the water pressure pushed the debries out of the way. The water rose about 16 inches and had enough force to wash the canoe through the dam. It worked well, but took hours to get through them all. As far as waiting for one to get to shore thats good in therory , but no one has the final say on where a 800 lb animal dies. A few of these started on dry land and finished in the water. Its all good fun and part of hunting rivers, lakes, or swamps.
Mike
.

butcher
11-07-2012, 04:31 PM
South Nahanni last year

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/nahanni_2011.jpg

moose2
11-07-2012, 06:29 PM
Cool picture Butcher, thats a great looking bull and looks like a cold job your taking on.

Mike

little moose
11-07-2012, 06:45 PM
no pics but our moose died in about 12ft of water this year, floated to the bank and wedged under a bunch of deadfall. As we floated by i grabed the antlers and the raft swung around and just about swamped us! took 15 min cutting the dead fall to release him, then floated him to the nearest gravel bar for pics and dressing.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/CIMG3877.JPG (javascript:;)

Timbow
11-07-2012, 08:40 PM
Great stories. I can imagine these trips are probably the most memorable, especially how you had to deal with them.

Wrj
08-15-2015, 09:51 PM
Bumping a great thread from a few years back...!!!

ElliotMoose
08-17-2015, 09:06 AM
What an awesome thread. Any more tales? I will try to dig up some photos from a nasty one we had a few years back. Those are the ones you will remember forever!

bugbones
10-16-2015, 06:31 AM
I always have my dry suit with me. get the strange looks but I've used it.