Mule deer spike fork season

[rides bike to work]

I'm just putting this out there for conversation sakes. What do you think about a spike fork mule deer season with a any buck leh.

Would this work to get a population of big bucks

Whichanagent unit would this work in

Has this been done anywhere and how did it work

Monster buck leh 2013 what do you think

[pnbrock]

I would rather see it go right to a straight 4 point season.

[skibum]

Great for guys who have been hunting for a while and after trophies - suck for the meat hunters.

Was talking to a resort owner yesterday, and he said after the any buck meat opening, business drops right off and he is left with Trophy hunters in the colder part of the season. I feel that is the way it should be, those after trophies have to put in the extra effor of dealing with the late season, getting off the beaten path. Big bucks are out there.

I am generally a meat hunter first, and know the effort that I have to put in to get a trophy buck this year.

I like the any buck season as is.

(and would not do well for hunter recruitment)

[Downwind]

I would rather see it go right to a straight 4 point season.

Why? What would be the benefit?

[The Dude]

I think more attention has to go to habitat enhancement, (incl controlled burns) illegal 'harvest' and predator control, especially wolves.

[Wild one]

I would rather see the prov mule deer limit cut back to 1 buck and have the whole season any buck.

But I know it would be fought and never pass

[rides bike to work]

My thoughts are this could work well in a heavily hunted area like certain areas in region 2 were it is currently any buck

Take pressure off the area allowing more bucks to grow large

Meat hunters can still take their spike fork Wich is the beat eating

It will also create a leh trophy hunt like no other

[The Dude]

If anyone in this province reallly wants a big buck, you can get one.
But you have to do your homework.

I came from Ontario, via Quebec and Nova Scotia........ you have no idea how blessed we are here.

[springpin]

I'd like to see it left as a 4 point season. And let the little ones grow.

[curt]

I like the idea of 4 point only across the board this in theory would improve the buck doe ratio and let the deer get bigger!!!

[pnbrock]

Let's start with having to scrape bones for 40lbs or a solid 100 lbs ?

[Whonnock Boy]

It has been stated many times before. Harvesting all ages, and sexes is most productive way to produce a healthy herd. X number of bucks will make it to trophy status. You just have to work a lot harder to harvest one. With this method, all hunters, both meat and trophy, are satisfied, or should be, with their opportunities.

[snareman1234]

I believe it has been stated on here many times, by those in the know with regards to population management, that any buck seasons do not decrease the populations potential to produce trophy class deer. Shooting 1-3 yr old, dink bucks (any buck season) is more conductive to large deer than guys killing 3-5 yr old 120-165 class bucks (4pt season ). If you want to produce 175+ deer?

Could be wayyy wrong but thats the impression I had

[TyTy]

I like the idea of 4 point only across the board this in theory would improve the buck doe ratio and let the deer get bigger!!!


In theory... No. read up a little more. its pretty dynamic

[TyTy]

I believe it has been stated on here many times, by those in the know with regards to population management, that any buck seasons do not decrease the populations potential to produce trophy class deer. Shooting 1-3 yr old, dink bucks (any buck season) is more conductive to large deer than guys killing 3-5 yr old 120-165 class bucks (4pt season ). If you want to produce 175+ deer?

Could be wayyy wrong but thats the impression I had


Yes, I agree

[dave_83golf]

I couldn't be happier that I have to bust my ass to find a good buck.... Hunting wouldn't be the same if the trophies were easier to come by... Gives me something to do from Sept-Dec FAKKKKKKK I cant wait!!!!!

[coach]

It has been stated many times before. Harvesting all ages, and sexes is most productive way to produce a healthy herd. X number of bucks will make it to trophy status. You just have to work a lot harder to harvest one. With this method, all hunters, both meat and trophy, are satisfied, or should be, with their opportunities.

Bingo!!!!!!

[MillBay]

Having just a 4 point or better season dosn't work in some areas like the Chilcotons where it seems about 30% of the deer in their prime are only big 3 points. Having a 4 point or better season makes for killing 2 or 3 year old deer with really good horn genes while leaving the older 3 points with poor horn genes. IMO.

[coach]

Another good point, Millbay. To the OP, are wwe dealing with a conservation concern or a social concern here? I'd rather we continue to manage for the health o the heard. Whonnock Boy and Millbay know what they are talking about.

[one-shot-wonder]

Would this work to get a population of big bucks
Why LEH for any buck?


Whichanagent unit would this work in

I can't think of any in particular that would benefit from this approach, so short answer is NONE!


Monster buck leh 2013 what do you think

The last thing we need is more LEH......GOS is the way to go, worry about other parts of managemnet first before season/antler restrictions.....Look at the big picture, and not just the big Mule deer picture either, the whole darn picture!

[The Dude]

There is also at least one area I hunt where there exist Franken-Bucks....giant older twos and threes that are smart enough not to get seen outside the rut, but can't be shot in the 4-point Region 8 season. I would love to see 2-3 years of any buck thru Nov to wipe 'em out. Or hell, 3 points or less!

[GoatGuy]

For these conversations there is a need to identify exactly what your objective is?

Is the intent to benefit deer, hunters, yourself, etc

After that we can run through the outcomes and pros/cons.

[The Dude]

http://i522.photobucket.com/albums/w348/Richtoon18/1263293953_treadmill_roll.gif

[ruger#1]

Hmm, Ha Ha Whatever.

[ruger#1]

I,am going to go out and buy some grouse tags.

[kootenayhunter270]

Sure screwed up the mulie buck populations in the last two years in reg 4. Went back to 4 point when the gov realized they screwed up.

[Gateholio]

Any buck for all season long makes more sense to me.

[Livewire322]

I agree the 4 point season should be across the board, there's plenty of oportunities for meat white tails...

[snareman1234]

I agree the 4 point season should be across the board, there's plenty of oportunities for meat white tails...


The advantage to the quality and quantity of mule deer in our province would be?...

[coach]

The advantage to the quality and quantity of mule deer in our province would be?...

Well.. You could have less mule deer and fewer 4 points. Then they can all go LEH..

[GRIZZEZE]

We need to fight for more hunting opertunities not less. More limited entry is a bad idea.
LEH makes people shoot animals that they may not regularly harvest because they know that they may not be able to hunt them again the following year.
One example, I have been trying to get a moose draw for about 9 years, guess what this year I got one and the first leagle bull is going to get shot incase I do not get a chance for another 9 years. Now if I knew that I was able to hunt in that area next year, I might be a little more picky on what I shoot.

Watch out bullwinkle I am coming with 9 years of waiting :mrgreen:

[Ourea]

British Columbia's Mule Deer habitat varies greatly.
Deer density varies.
Predation varies.
Proximity to polulated centers varies.
Logging varies.
Access varies.
Winter range varies.
Migratory tendencies vary.
The amount of hunting pressure and percentage of harvest to any one particular area varies as a result.
What strategy works for maintaining a balanced mule deer herd in one area can result in over harvest and affect the healthy balance in another.
Hate to side with common sense.
BC has some of the most bio diversity in the world.
To think that some variance in game management strategies, in the best interest of healthy and sustainable deer populations, is not a stretch.

FYI, not pointing a finger at anyone's particular comment.
Just stating the blatany obvious.

[Livewire322]

The advantage to the quality and quantity of mule deer in our province would be?...
I see fewer 4points than I do 2 points, if we have a straight 4 point season the buck:doe ratio will go up creating more deer which will eventually make it to the 4 point stage...

Shooting all the rinky dink bucks and leaving only a small portion of males to breed doesn't sound smart to me.

[coach]

I see fewer 4points than I do 2 points, if we have a straight 4 point season the buck:doe ratio will go up creating more deer which will eventually make it to the 4 point stage...

Shooting all the rinky dink bucks and leaving only a small portion of males to breed doesn't sound smart to me.

What does breeding have to do with antler size?

[Whonnock Boy]

Shooting all the rinky dink bucks and leaving only a small portion of males to breed doesn't sound smart to me.

20 bucks for every 100 does is more than enough for breeding. It has been stated on here many, many times.

[snareman1234]

I see fewer 4points than I do 2 points, if we have a straight 4 point season the buck:doe ratio will go up creating more deer which will eventually make it to the 4 point stage...

Shooting all the rinky dink bucks and leaving only a small portion of males to breed doesn't sound smart to me.

Age structure has a "pyramid-like" shape, with the young age class being the bottom, and most abundant, and as you go up, it quickly lessens. It is very natural to see more 2pts than 4pts. There SHOULD be more young ones, and pair that with the fact that they are uneducated and not as wary as a mature, educated mature deer, and your observations are right on target with a healthy age structure.

[hunter1993ap]

what i would like to see is less access, in many places. like the winter range, and other places where people go nuts with their quads and push all the deer out...

[coach]

Age structure has a "pyramid-like" shape, with the young age class being the bottom, and most abundant, and as you go up, it quickly lessens. It is very natural to see more 2pts than 4pts. There SHOULD be more young ones, and pair that with the fact that they are uneducated and not as wary as a mature, educated mature deer, and your observations are right on target with a healthy age structure.


It all comes down to the unanswered question from earlier: do we manage for trophies or for the health of the herd. In the EK they've gone for social management. We'll see how that works out over the next few years.

[TheProvider]

Plenty of trophy deer out there. I'm in Region 2, blacktails. In my hunting honey holes there are gentics for 3 pts and genetics for 4pts. Meaning there are 3pts that will never be 4pts. So the 3pts once mature and trophy size cannot be shot and are left for predators or old age and disease. That'd be the case if 4pt season across the board happened. As would most areas containing blacktails. Which fall under the mule dear class for people who don't know.

It would in no way shape or form create "plenty" of trophy bucks by putting 4pt or better across the board.

[GoatGuy]

I see fewer 4points than I do 2 points, if we have a straight 4 point season the buck:doe ratio will go up creating more deer which will eventually make it to the 4 point stage...

Shooting all the rinky dink bucks and leaving only a small portion of males to breed doesn't sound smart to me.
It's actually, the exact opposite of that.

[Sitkaspruce]

I see fewer 4points than I do 2 points, if we have a straight 4 point season the buck:doe ratio will go up creating more deer which will eventually make it to the 4 point stage...

Shooting all the rinky dink bucks and leaving only a small portion of males to breed doesn't sound smart to me.

You need to do some research before you make statements like this.

As someone else asked, what does breeding have to do with antler size......?

Who says only only 4 pts breed???

And explain how the buck to doe ratio will go up?? Do deer only die by bullets or arrows??

It is uninformed thoughts like this that make it hard for us as hunters to agree on a mgmt system to ensure we have an increasing population.

Please research deer population dynamics, it will have you rethinking your thoughts.

Cheers

SS

[GoatGuy]

Sure screwed up the mulie buck populations in the last two years in reg 4. Went back to 4 point when the gov realized they screwed up.

It was done because two spots had low buck:doe ratios, same as they always have.

[Downwind]

Would more liberal DOE openings not help out? Improve buck:doe ratios and increase hunting opportunities at the same time? The one thing I have noticed is our counterparts south of the border seem to have a better understanding of managing deer pops. (maybe I'm wrong, not a bio).

[snareman1234]

Would more liberal DOE openings not help out? Improve buck:doe ratios and increase hunting opportunities at the same time? The one thing I have noticed is our counterparts south of the border seem to have a better understanding of managing deer pops. (maybe I'm wrong, not a bio).


Whoa whoa whoa lol!

[hunter1993ap]

Would more liberal DOE openings not help out? Improve buck:doe ratios and increase hunting opportunities at the same time? The one thing I have noticed is our counterparts south of the border seem to have a better understanding of managing deer pops. (maybe I'm wrong, not a bio).

haha ya sell all the crown land and only let so many people hunt a certain ranch, while making thousands. dont forget about all the feed and $hit they put in the food to make the antlers grow huge! and the small portion of land that is left over have a leh system with odds like the kamloops sheep draw. man there would be huge deer but no opertunities. i think i have watched too much wild tv lately, correct me if i'm wrong, but this is the impresion i get about hunting down south.

[dmace]

Come to the Island !

[The Dude]

Would more liberal DOE openings not help out? Improve buck:doe ratios and increase hunting opportunities at the same time? The one thing I have noticed is our counterparts south of the border seem to have a better understanding of managing deer pops. (maybe I'm wrong, not a bio).

Yes, if you shoot more does, the Buck : Doe ratio improves.

ust like in region 5, the Bull:Cow ratio is good because certain groups shoot any cow or calf they see.

BTW: How's that working out for them up there?

[hunter1993ap]

Come to the Island !

if i could find deer like your avitar pic i would come to the island!:razz: have any bigger pics? it looks like a very big deer.

[coach]

Yes, if you shoot more does, the Buck : Doe ratio improves.

ust like in region 5, the Bull:Cow ratio is good because certain groups shoot any cow or calf they see.

BTW: How's that working out for them up there?

I hear it's working out pretty good for that certain interest group. Soon they'll have police protection to illegally stop the rest of us from hunting with LEH permits. Let's all keep fighting with ourselves. That way they can have it all.

[Downwind]

Yes, if you shoot more does, the Buck : Doe ratio improves.

ust like in region 5, the Bull:Cow ratio is good because certain groups shoot any cow or calf they see.

BTW: How's that working out for them up there?

Deer and moose are two different things and can't be managed the same way. And those 'certain groups' manage elk in region 1 the way they manage moose in region 5.

[Downwind]

haha ya sell all the crown land and only let so many people hunt a certain ranch, while making thousands. dont forget about all the feed and $hit they put in the food to make the antlers grow huge! and the small portion of land that is left over have a leh system with odds like the kamloops sheep draw. man there would be huge deer but no opertunities. i think i have watched too much wild tv lately, correct me if i'm wrong, but this is the impresion i get about hunting down south.

We're not talking high fence sh*t here. I'm not talking huge deer. We have that, everywhere in this province. What I am talking about is building on what we already have. Hell if it wasn't for what the yanks are doing down south with salmon we wouldn't have the fish we have up here. Our managers are screwing that royally.

[91Jason91]

I would rather see it go right to a straight 4 point season.

same here, thats all I am after anyways

[rides bike to work]

i enjoy all your coments but some of my questions werent answered

would a spike fork season with any buck leh creat a quality hunt in a certain area

is it working for moose in certain regions (I think so)

mmabey not even a hole managment unit just one drainage

I not saying its a good or bad idea just wondering if it would work

monster black tail leh up the west harrison 2013

[hunter1993ap]

We're not talking high fence sh*t here. I'm not talking huge deer. We have that, everywhere in this province. What I am talking about is building on what we already have. Hell if it wasn't for what the yanks are doing down south with salmon we wouldn't have the fish we have up here. Our managers are screwing that royally.

good point about the salmon but thats a completely different story than hunting. our salmon are in trouble and it doesnt seem like a whole lot is going on. but i do know we have way better opertunities than the states and hope that it doesnt change.

[coach]

same here, thats all I am after anyways

So everyone else should fit in to your agenda? Screw what's best for the deer!

[dmace]

if i could find deer like your avitar pic i would come to the island!:razz: have any bigger pics? it looks like a very big deer.

I think I threw one on Oreha 's big buck thread ages ago .

This is without a doubt a result of game management. I managed to get this deer in a doe only, spike fork season , LEH !
No dis respect to the thread ! I have no problem with well managed LEH . This keeps harvest #'s relatively acurate . Predator management is huge , but predators also play a roll in more dominant genetics . With 3 young hunters starting to hunt I also see the need to support thier needs . A 4 pt only season could turn these young hunters off for ever . An leh for less geneticly enhanced deer , may help the herd in many areas.
It's also good to get lucky now and then !
Dean

[one-shot-wonder]

same here, thats all I am after anyways

That's probably the same attitude all our ancestors had back in the fatherland.......How do you think that worked out for Europe?

[Jelvis]

spike/fork? Does it have to be only a spike on one side, and a fork on the other? Or or ahhhhhh?

[horshur]

a spike fork hunt is a "quality" hunt for many maybe even most.

if you want to hunt big deer then do...there is lots of opportunity here in BC in all regions without any special seasons.

[horshur]

same here, thats all I am after anyways

it is easy to shoot a four point.....don't need nothing but itch powder for the finger

[Downwind]

i enjoy all your coments but some of my questions werent answered

would a spike fork season with any buck leh creat a quality hunt in a certain area

is it working for moose in certain regions (I think so)

mmabey not even a hole managment unit just one drainage

I not saying its a good or bad idea just wondering if it would work

monster black tail leh up the west harrison 2013

Deer are not the same thing as moose though. They reach maturity at different points. You might as well compare deer, moose and sheep management in the same argument.

[Downwind]

good point about the salmon but thats a completely different story than hunting. our salmon are in trouble and it doesnt seem like a whole lot is going on. but i do know we have way better opertunities than the states and hope that it doesnt change.

Salmon aren't different though. They have been able to maintain a highly stable hunting (public land) with far less land and far more hunters then what we have. The only two things that are allowing us to maintain our opportunities at this point because it definitely isn't management practices.

[coach]

The spike/fork moose season is used to severely limit the harvest of bull moose while still allowing an opportunity to hunt. Is there a conservation concern that requires us to take such drastic steps to protect the mulw deer population?

[The Dude]

..... anddddd..the wheels on the bus go round and round........

[Jelvis]

Spike/fork bull moose is on to save the breeding bulls, spikes and forks don't breed the cow won't allow them to jump on. The bull needs to be about close to three and a half to four years old and over. That's why they use LEH any bull limiting the amount of breeding bulls being shot.
Jel .. It's not rocket science .. read up on moose biology in B.C. ..

[coach]

Here's the Washington state regs: http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/regulations/summary_hunting_dates.html

Is this what we want?

[Downwind]

Here's the Washington state regs: http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/regulations/summary_hunting_dates.html

Is this what we want?

I'm not sure if this is directed toward me (I hope not because what I'm alluding to is to prevent this happening)? What I do notice in those regs those is a lot of opportunities for 'any deer' not just any buck. If that type of system works for a system that restricted why can't at least help in a system like ours? May trial basis in a couple area that have healthy pops. to see if it impacts positively or negatively?

[Laurence_Erickson]

well we could have an any buck season all year and if one decides to leave all the dinks alone then I guess they will get larger .it is personal choice here there are so many hunters and so many deer shot every yr .as I see it if you decide to shoot a small but then he will never grow to be a mature buck.If you have to fill your thirst for blood you will Kill a deer ,if your standards are set higher then you may not fill that 16 dollar tag every yr .In this day and age I donnot think any of us really need to hunt for sustenance so let dinks live should be a fairly easy choice .I would love to see an any buck season ,all yr for seniors ,handicapped and children..The only problem I see is the over zellos dads that wait for the youth season to drag kids around just to kill more deer .

[GoatGuy]

I'm not sure if this is directed toward me (I hope not because what I'm alluding to is to prevent this happening)? What I do notice in those regs those is a lot of opportunities for 'any deer' not just any buck. If that type of system works for a system that restricted why can't at least help in a system like ours? May trial basis in a couple area that have healthy pops. to see if it impacts positively or negatively?

Washington state has more than double the hunters we have in BC in an area that is 1/4 the size.

The analogy would be to take all 100,000 hunters in BC, jam them in the East Kootenays for a week and see how well it works for wildlife.

Washington state manages it's buck:doe ratios WAY lower than we do. There are virtually zero 4 points that make it through the hunting season.

[GoatGuy]

Spike/fork bull moose is on to save the breeding bulls, spikes and forks don't breed the cow won't allow them to jump on. The bull needs to be about close to three and a half to four years old and over. That's why they use LEH any bull limiting the amount of breeding bulls being shot.
Jel .. It's not rocket science .. read up on moose biology in B.C. ..
Three and a half to four years old?

Some bulls are born in June, others in January?

[GoatGuy]

well we could have an any buck season all year and if one decides to leave all the dinks alone then I guess they will get larger .it is personal choice here there are so many hunters and so many deer shot every yr .as I see it if you decide to shoot a small but then he will never grow to be a mature buck.If you have to fill your thirst for blood you will Kill a deer ,if your standards are set higher then you may not fill that 16 dollar tag every yr .In this day and age I donnot think any of us really need to hunt for sustenance so let dinks live should be a fairly easy choice .I would love to see an any buck season ,all yr for seniors ,handicapped and children..The only problem I see is the over zellos dads that wait for the youth season to drag kids around just to kill more deer .

Have you harvested many 'big' bucks?

Considering mule deer are sexually mature at 18 mths, mature is the wrong word. If you're a big buck hunter please share your pictures of the 4 and 5 year old bucks you've harvested. Don't need to see the recycled pictures of one average 3 or 4 year old.

[The Dude]

Washington state has more than double the hunters we have in BC in an area that is 1/4 the size.

The analogy would be to take all 100,000 hunters in BC, jam them in the East Kootenays for a week and see how well it works for wildlife.

Washington state manages it's buck:doe ratios WAY lower than we do. There are virtually zero 4 points that make it through the hunting season.

Like the Lottery folks used to say : Can You Imagine?

I think we should do that in Region 5 on Sept 10th !!!!

Like GG asked b4: What's the intention? Lotsa folks want a buck for the freezer, some want a nice rack, some want both.
Having any buck seasons increases opportunity for all, and if you want a huge buck, go get one. Is it supposed to be easy?
I have pics of bucks that would make you weep, (They made ME get a little misty) but not everyone flaunts the big boys for the "Gutpile Chaser" factor, but we have some PIGS in BC, in almost ALL areas.
Butcha gotta put the time in. Personally, I haven't shot a buck in the last 3 seasons of hunting, but I don't expect the HUGE majority of hunters that hunt to fill freezers, and spend time with family and friends in the field, to pass on a spike or fork buck on my account.
Think of the hunters we would LOSE!
That's just the way I roll.


(And the damn "j"on my keyboard's busted, so fill in the blanks, lol)

[The Dude]

GoatGuy, Ourea: What is the common denominator between ALL the guys that consistently harvest large bucks?

[elkhunter1]

x3 Gatehouse.

[Downwind]

Washington state has more than double the hunters we have in BC in an area that is 1/4 the size.

The analogy would be to take all 100,000 hunters in BC, jam them in the East Kootenays for a week and see how well it works for wildlife.

Washington state manages it's buck:doe ratios WAY lower than we do. There are virtually zero 4 points that make it through the hunting season.

This is my point. Why not increase hunting opportunities by opening up more DOE hunting opportunities. I'm not saying allowing more deer being shot. Keep the regional/provincial bag limits the same. This will help both hunters that just want meat, hunters that just want any buck and hunters that just want to go after big bucks.

[steelheadSABO]

I agree with habitat enhancement, controlled burs and more wolf trapping threads.

[Ourea]

GoatGuy, Ourea: What is the common denominator between ALL the guys that consistently harvest large bucks?

???? I wouldn't know anything about that!!??? :wink:

Follow Dana around!!!? :mrgreen:

[The Dude]

Ed Zachary! (Not the answer I was looking for, but funny as hell, nonetheless)

[GoatGuy]

GoatGuy, Ourea: What is the common denominator between ALL the guys that consistently harvest large bucks?


???? I wouldn't know anything about that!!??? :wink:

Follow Dana around!!!? :mrgreen:

Don't know, haven't shot a mulw deer in years.

All my buddies who have shot big mulw deer support any buck seasons 100%. They have always thought it's up to them to get up earlier, hike farther and hunt harder to find the big 'uns, not to place unnecessary restrictions on their fellow hunters for their own selfish interests.

It's a very different approach then what you see from some on here.

,handicapped and children... indeed........

[GoatGuy]

GoatGuy, Ourea: What is the common denominator between ALL the guys that consistently harvest large bucks?


This is my point. Why not increase hunting opportunities by opening up more DOE hunting opportunities. I'm not saying allowing more deer being shot. Keep the regional/provincial bag limits the same. This will help both hunters that just want meat, hunters that just want any buck and hunters that just want to go after big bucks.

The biggest thing people don't seem to understand is that the people who want to go after big bucks don't need help. They do.

Over the years, the biggest bucks have constantly and consistently come from the West Koots which had the most liberal seasons in the province, including 4-38 which was any buck all the way until Dec 10th until just a couple years ago.

99% of the self-proclaimed big buck hunters wouldn't last a morning hunting that country.

[rides bike to work]

Would the spike fork season work though

to create a area that held big bucks?

is it working for moose?

[GoatGuy]

Would the spike fork season work though

to create a area that held big bucks?

is it working for moose?

To make a noticeable difference to the average hunter you'd probably have to reduce the GOS to a week or two in early october/late september and even then it's hard to predict whether it would work or not. They've tried this sort of stuff in the states and it typically doesn't work. You just end up with frustrated hunters because they 'never get drawn' - of course, we don't have that problem with people whining about not getting LEHs here in BC.

If you want lots of big bucks you pretty much need full LEH.

[skibum]

Trophy hunting seems to go over well with the general public

[curt]

I'm no expert at anything my motivation for even entertaining any season change has always been to improve populations as well as quality and quantity of available game, that pretty much covers my thoughts.....is this possibly who knows!?!? but I'm not a fan of more LEH the system stinks bad enough already!! :)


For these conversations there is a need to identify exactly what your objective is?

Is the intent to benefit deer, hunters, yourself, etc

After that we can run through the outcomes and pros/cons.

[GoatGuy]

I'm no expert at anything my motivation for even entertaining any season change has always been to improve populations as well as quality and quantity of available game, that pretty much covers my thoughts.....is this possibly who knows!?!? but I'm not a fan of more LEH the system stinks bad enough already!! :)

If more mule deer and bigger bucks is the goal then 'we' need money to go out and start burning the countryside regularly and in a big way.

Have more deer than you know what to do with then.

Money and support for habitat enhancement comes from politicians. Hunters need to contact their MLAs and tell them they need to invest in wildlife management and ecosystem restoration.

[hunterdon]

LEH for bucks??? Please say it ain't so!!!

[Livewire322]

You need to do some research before you make statements like this.

It's not a statement it's a opinion, I'm entitled to mine as you are to yours.

As someone else asked, what does breeding have to do with antler size......?

The point I was trying to make is if we only shot 4point or greater deer (which comprise the minority of the population) there would be more bucks that would be available to breed (more deer under the size of 4 points)

Who says only only 4 pts breed???
No one has said this

And explain how the buck to doe ratio will go up?? Do deer only die by bullets or arrows??
No but if we are harvesting only from the section of the population that makes up the majority of said population there is less bucks to breed. 4 point only Eason would see less mule deer bucks harvested Therefore there would be a higher number of bucks: does.

To the person who said 20:100 is the appropriate ratio, do we know that we have this ratio? Seems to me that we are lacking on the scientific/ numerical portion of the wildlife management! I read dozens of people on HBC bitching about a lack of animal counts.
In fact evidence would suggest that the counts are either not conducted or there are incorrect, because if they were being done properly the wolf situation would never have escalated to the point it's at...

[MillBay]

"The point I was trying to make is if we only shot 4point or greater deer (which comprise the minority of the population) there would be more bucks that would be available to breed (more deer under the size of 4 points) "

So you would rather have inferior bucks do the breading so they can breed away the good horn gened bucks, kind of goes against what you want dosn't it. Or are you under the illusion that ever deer over 2 or 3 years old is a 4 point.

[curt]

I beleive and please correct me if I'm wrong younger less dominate bucks will usually not be accepted by does anyway, I've seen it in moose where young eager bulls are chased off by cows, but having more younger bucks surviving hunting season you think would increase the number of bucks or atleast increase the opportunity of the younger bucks making maturity???? Now that is how my brain works but like I said I'm no expert seems reasonable but maybe a biologist type could answer this better!?

[GoatGuy]

I beleive and please correct me if I'm wrong younger less dominate bucks will usually not be accepted by does anyway, I've seen it in moose where young eager bulls are chased off by cows, but having more younger bucks surviving hunting season you think would increase the number of bucks or atleast increase the opportunity of the younger bucks making maturity???? Now that is how my brain works but like I said I'm no expert seems reasonable but maybe a biologist type could answer this better!?

That's the way it works principally with moose and sheep.

For deer and generally for elk, as long as it works the girls will stand for it. Bucks are sexually mature as yearlings.

[MillBay]

"For deer and generally for elk, as long as it works the girls will stand for it. Bucks are sexually mature as yearlings. "

Thats what I have seen over the years, watched many a young buck with very receptive does.

[steel_ram]

I'm all for what ever works from a proven scientific formula. Their will always be the few that survive and make trophies. Still I'd prefer to leave the tiddlers for the youth/newbie hunters but on the other hand don't like seeing forks chasing does.

Justify hunting for meat. Yeah right, a 350lb fatboy standing next to a $80,000 truck needs a baby deer for meat.

[Ourea]

I'm all for what ever works from a proven scientific formula. Their will always be the few that survive and make trophies. Still I'd prefer to leave the tiddlers for the youth/newbie hunters but on the other hand don't like seeing forks chasing does.

Justify hunting for meat. Yeah right, a 350lb fatboy standing next to a $80,000 truck needs a baby deer for meat.



LMAO!
Well played.

[dana]

Higher deer numbers do not create more bigger bucks. It is actually the opposite. Low deer densities create big bucks. The Arizona Strip is a classic example of this.

[happyhunter]

Hunting pressure, access, populations, terrain, etc is all different across BC. I don't believe the regs should be the same for the whole province. Any buck season? Sure, could work in some regions. But in region 4 the buck/doe ratio's got way too low in some MU's with an any buck season.

I dont know whats best for other regions, and I'm only guessing for region 4 where I live..... But what I think may help the population and grow bigger bucks is where if you shoot a mule deer buck you must wait 2 years before you can shoot another one. This would not hurt opportunity for the meat hunter with our liberal elk and whitetail seasons. Probably not a lot of people would support this idea. But I think the positives should outweigh the negatives. The idea is to make people be more selective of which muley buck they shoot. Shoot a spike, 2 pt, 3pt, 4pt, etc no worries. You take whatever size deer you like, but then you may not harvest another mule deer for 2 years. This should improve the buck doe ratio and grow bigger bucks as there can be a harvest across all age groups. This should grow the population as well by leaving more bucks in the bush for the predators to eat thereby taking the predator pressure off the females. You see if your buck/doe ratios are low then predators are more likely to prey on females as there are far more females to be found.
This wasn't my idea but it made sense to me so I thought I'd pass it on.

[Jelvis]

Whitetail deer can breed the does the first fall, about 6 percent of the mule deer come in heat the first fall.
See the difference?
Moose different, elk not surely.
New hunters from this last decade say, it was much easier to get a trophy buck back in the sixties then now.
More bucks around then they say. In the saxties.

[Gateholio]

Hunting pressure, access, populations, terrain, etc is all different across BC. I don't believe the regs should be the same for the whole province. Any buck season? Sure, could work in some regions. But in region 4 the buck/doe ratio's got way too low in some MU's with an any buck season.

I dont know whats best for other regions, and I'm only guessing for region 4 where I live..... But what I think may help the population and grow bigger bucks is where if you shoot a mule deer buck you must wait 2 years before you can shoot another one. This would not hurt opportunity for the meat hunter with our liberal elk and whitetail seasons. Probably not a lot of people would support this idea. But I think the positives should outweigh the negatives. The idea is to make people be more selective of which muley buck they shoot. Shoot a spike, 2 pt, 3pt, 4pt, etc no worries. You take whatever size deer you like, but then you may not harvest another mule deer for 2 years. This should improve the buck doe ratio and grow bigger bucks as there can be a harvest across all age groups. This should grow the population as well by leaving more bucks in the bush for the predators to eat thereby taking the predator pressure off the females. You see if your buck/doe ratios are low then predators are more likely to prey on females as there are far more females to be found.
This wasn't my idea but it made sense to me so I thought I'd pass it on.


You want to feed more predators with bucks hunters could be eating? Strange idea, but I've seen plenty of strange ideas proposed by hunters.

[Jelvis]

Every deer hunter closes shop for the first deer hunting opening weekend or whenever the 10th of Sept comes.
- Closed - "Gone Deer Huntin!" - SeeYah - Ya all come back now yah hear -

[The Dude]

In Region 4, was it 4-3 that dropped to an estimated 3:100 ratio? In cases like that, ust shut 'er down for awhile.
Lord knows there's enough Elk, Turkeys, Grouse, rabbits and WTs to hunt there.
Conservation should always come first, but if there's no conservation concern, then more rules means less hunters, more importantly less NEW hunters and less of a voice against an increasingly urbanized and styrofoam-meat-fed population.
Let's be careful what we wish for.

[Jelvis]

If you hunt around the out skirts of The City of Kamloops, for mule deer, and you don't get a shot at one, -----
--- Hang up the Thuddy Thuddy ---

[happyhunter]

You want to feed more predators with bucks hunters could be eating? Strange idea, but I've seen plenty of strange ideas proposed by hunters.
Yes I want to have more bucks in the bush post season. Predators don't discriminate. Could lower the population if they take too many does, which is what they are eating when you have low buck doe ratios.
This is a change in regs that I think would help. Predator control would help a LOT more. Habitat is going for shit in the koots and that's gotta change too.

[GoatGuy]

Hunting pressure, access, populations, terrain, etc is all different across BC. I don't believe the regs should be the same for the whole province. Any buck season? Sure, could work in some regions. But in region 4 the buck/doe ratio's got way too low in some MU's with an any buck season.

I dont know whats best for other regions, and I'm only guessing for region 4 where I live..... But what I think may help the population and grow bigger bucks is where if you shoot a mule deer buck you must wait 2 years before you can shoot another one. This would not hurt opportunity for the meat hunter with our liberal elk and whitetail seasons. Probably not a lot of people would support this idea. But I think the positives should outweigh the negatives. The idea is to make people be more selective of which muley buck they shoot. Shoot a spike, 2 pt, 3pt, 4pt, etc no worries. You take whatever size deer you like, but then you may not harvest another mule deer for 2 years. This should improve the buck doe ratio and grow bigger bucks as there can be a harvest across all age groups. This should grow the population as well by leaving more bucks in the bush for the predators to eat thereby taking the predator pressure off the females. You see if your buck/doe ratios are low then predators are more likely to prey on females as there are far more females to be found.
This wasn't my idea but it made sense to me so I thought I'd pass it on.

Try to go through this point by point.

The buck:doe ratios are low in two MUs as they always have been, even before the any buck season.
There are MUs that high very high buck:doe ratios, the same MUs where hunters are complaining about the mule deer
Changing the buck season won't help the deer population.
The 1 in 2 or 1 in 3 rule doesn't work; they already tried it in the peace and it was an abject failure.
You don't have liberal elk seasons, you have a 6 pt 'recovery' season that's gone on about 10 years longer than it should have
Predators do discriminate, bucks and fawns are far more susceptible to predation than mature does are for a variety of reasons

Your problem is habitat, hunting regulations do not fix habitat.

[Ourea]

Higher deer numbers do not create more bigger bucks. It is actually the opposite. Low deer densities create big bucks. The Arizona Strip is a classic example of this.


Well quantified statistic and duly noted that lower populations do have the tendency to produce bigger bucks.
It should also be noted The Strip, which is probably the most coveted mule deer hunting location on the planet, is a draw.

[Whonnock Boy]

It should also be noted The Strip, which is probably the most coveted mule deer hunting location on the planet, is a draw.

A gazillion to one draw at that.

[Jelvis]

Big bucks are harder to see then small bucks because they got big from hiding instead of wandering out into the open.
They might have a couple times in the past and heard a nozler skim the trees beside him, or clip him low or high.
He learned, hide til dark at least, he might not last forever, but he could make it one more night if he hides good.
The big buck will have a younger smaller buck that will try to shadow the big guy, but the big guy hides in the forest and the younger buck, moves in the open too much and POW! Either get's killed or wounded or missed all together.
Learn fast or die soon.
Jel (The Machine) Gun

[rides bike to work]

So this system does work to create an area with lots of big bucks ( the strip) I take I that's in the states
Only 106 posts to answer my question not bad

[happyhunter]

GG- we have antlerless and spike bull in zone x plus a 6 pt season. Lots of opportunity to get an elk.

I don't have a clue what the peace has to do with east kootenays. Lots of variables across the province. You cannot use one management stragedy for the whole province.

[1/2 slam]

I think more attention has to go to habitat enhancement, (incl controlled burns) illegal 'harvest' and predator control, especially wolves.

Bang on....

[6616]

So this system does work to create an area with lots of big bucks ( the strip) I take I that's in the states
Only 106 posts to answer my question not bad

Believe me guys, you don't want the management system in BC that Arizona uses on The Arizona Strip. 2500 to 3000 deer estimated on 1 1/2 million acres of land and only a handful of tags available at odds of 100:1 (6000 applicants for 60 tags). About 90% of "The Strip" is also protected (no hunting) BLM and/or National Monument Land. If this is what it takes to produce huge bucks consistently we don't want it - a harvest rate of less than a quarter of 1% of the population estimate all LEH, extremely limited vehicle access, and some of the most inhospitable (to humans) canyon/badlands/desert country in North America. That system bears no resemblance to what you suggest, it's an area managed for trophy bucks and that almost always means a very, very restricted harvest opportunity. This would be equivalent to shooting about 200 bucks in Region 4 annually instead of the 2000 we currently harvest, but that's what you gotta do to get the same level of quality as the Arizona Strip - no other way...!

[Gateholio]

Yes I want to have more bucks in the bush post season. Predators don't discriminate. Could lower the population if they take too many does, which is what they are eating when you have low buck doe ratios.
This is a change in regs that I think would help. Predator control would help a LOT more. Habitat is going for shit in the koots and that's gotta change too.

Better Habitat is the only thing in your concept that has merit.

[hunter1947]

My opinion is to let the smaller deer grow up ,ex sample I was coming out from my hunting camp yesterday saw two tween mule deer spiker's standing on the logging road I had to almost get out of my truck to chase them off the road.

No one can tell me if both or one of these two small mule deer bucks have a good jean pool thats why I say let them live to grow up to be bigger..

[caves16]

I think there are many reasons why a buck wouldn't make it long enough to 'trophy' status, only one of which is hunters. If we could get the predators, disease, harsh conditions and other factors to cooperate with the plan, we might get somewhere...
I think the damage it would do to the hunters who are not on their peak game (the young, the new and the elderly) would outweigh any benefit to the trophy hunters. I have two kids (nearly 3) now that hunt, and I dont know if I could keep their interest in hunting if it became that much more challenging. That said, last year in the youth season my 16 year old daughter was determined to hold out for a 'monster' as she called it, and passed up about a dozen spikers. On the last day, when I thought for sure she was going home empty handed, she dropped a dandy...
Trouble is, now I cant get her to listen to me about anything...

[Downwind]

My opinion is to let the smaller deer grow up ,ex sample I was coming out from my hunting camp yesterday saw two tween mule deer spiker's standing on the logging road I had to almost get out of my truck to chase them off the road.

No one can tell me if both or one of these two small mule deer bucks have a good jean pool thats why I say let them live to grow up to be bigger..

Sounds like those 2 deer will both be dead pretty soon anyway. Most likely by contact with the hood ornament on a logging truck. Might as well let a hunter who is looking for some meat put that animal to use.

[skibum]

you think there is a divide between the experienced and new hunters on this issue? Guys that can put more than a couple weeks in the bush vs. guy who can't b/c of varying reasons?

[bc-shedder]

the best thing to do would be shorten the any buck season make it from oct 1st-15th take the end of the month out because thats when the rut will start for the younger guys and they are dumb as is. Then give out 5-10 leh per area for november that way if the winner sees a dominate 3 point they may have a shot at deleting that gene

[horshur]

the best thing to do would be shorten the any buck season make it from oct 1st-15th take the end of the month out because thats when the rut will start for the younger guys and they are dumb as is. Then give out 5-10 leh per area for november that way if the winner sees a dominate 3 point they may have a shot at deleting that gene



you seem to think that aquiring a LEH is a forgone conclusion...3-1 odds can see you twiddling your thumbs nearly twenty years to draw . So you will most likely be hunting the any buck season for a dozen years prior to drawing a tag just so you can shoot a three point for the benifit of the herd....

[Jelvis]

Some people believe the more deer that are shot, the more deer you will get spread over the decades.
Back in the sixties a hunter could kill way more deer in GOS. And there were tons of deer.
I see lots of antlerless and young bucks in the late fall that came down, hundreds in a few days. But no big tracks among them, because it's after the main rut.
Pre rut some of the bucks are down to below 3900 ft and lower then in the estrus from Oct 23 onward the big bucks are moving about til Nov 19th or so, then hide big time.
The rut starts and peaks with the estrus cycle and it is from Oct 23rd to November 19th .. then every 28 days after.
Mature does from Oct 23rd to November 4th are bred, then the younger does are bred Nov 5th to the 13th, then any left overs by Nov 19th.
Jello Bio ( Mule Deer ) Estrus and rut .. strut yer stuff .. :shock: .. Peace Out .. :smile: .. Frank's Red Hot ..

[steel_ram]

Protect and improve habitat. Manage wildlife with it in mind, and that may not necessary be more opportunites for hunters. When the ungulates stabilize so should the predators. Taking out some wolves is only going to improve it for those predators that survive, just making that pedulum swing a little higher.

[Livewire322]

So you would rather have inferior bucks do the breading so they can breed away the good horn gened bucks
Good ANTLER (the word you were looking for, deer do not have horns as horns are not shed anually like antlers are)
gene has nothing to do with it my idea is to produce a larger quantity of deer regardless of antler size, I did not say my idea for a 4 point season was permanent, it would be more of a 10 year plan to increase the population of mule deer in areas, then the restrictions would be lifted... I am not a trophy hunter a big rack is merely a bonus to me.

kind of goes against what you want dosn't it[?]
No, in this case I believe in quantity over quality.

Or are you under the illusion that ever deer over 2 or 3 years old is a 4 point.
No, I am not.

[MillBay]

Well Livewire I believe the young buck in this conversation is you. SORRY ANTLERED, I am sure know one knew what I was talking about.

[Jelvis]

If you really want to get a look at a big buck, you gotta go where big bucks go. Steep, ugly, dangerous footing, thick nasty brush, blow downs, big rocks, and down low from any access with trucks.
In other words, you'll need to stay over night at least once or bring a good head lamp.
There are big bucks out there, butt who can find their hiding spot in one day? Then try to not be seen.
Jel .. ( Big Bucks) R There but where? If you know, then go there when you hunt ..

[hunter1993ap]

If you really want to get a look at a big buck, you gotta go where big bucks go. Steep, ugly, dangerous footing, thick nasty brush, blow downs, big rocks, and down low from any access with trucks.
In other words, you'll need to stay over night at least once or bring a good head lamp.
There are big bucks out there, butt who can find their hiding spot in one day? Then try to not be seen.
Jel .. ( Big Bucks) R There but where? If you know, then go there when you hunt ..

or shoot one right off the road, like guys always seem to do.

[The Dude]

or shoot one right off the road, like guys always seem to do.

No-one consistenty does that, but you hear abot it cuz it's talked up so much......like getting hit by lightning.

Als, SkiBum has a very valid point as well. Not all of us can spend 3 weeks hunting after 15 days of trail camming pre-season. Some spend a week or a matter of days, going in blind. I'm not going to tell those guys they can only shoot 4 points.

[Jelvis]

In Kamloops the deer and moose hunters i know, some hunt forty days a season here, looking for a 180 or bigger.
Some, one hunter in particular sees over 40 four point mule bucks a season. And yet waits and hopes to see a 200 Typ.
Or a 220 NonTyp Mule and would take a nice whitetail buck to eat as well. These guys love moose meat first but make pepperoni and soft honey and garlic jerky out of the deer. They are enthralled with the antlers of a mature mule deer buck, it gives em a fever, and the only prescription, is more hunting for four point mules ..

[hunter1993ap]

i know the fever your talking about.. its hit a couple weeks ago and wont die down until christmas.

[Jelvis]

I can feel it, like when I first loved hunting mule deer. I was young and I thought about hunting for six months of the year, then I got to hunt for real, and I can feel, the hunting excitement returning inside me.
Jel .. I can feel it too ..hunter

[Livewire322]

My age has nothing to do with this conversation and to bring it up because you have no merit to your argument and see that you are getting nowhere is plain ignorant.

[6616]

So you would rather have inferior bucks do the breading so they can breed away the good horn gened bucks
Good ANTLER (the word you were looking for, deer do not have horns as horns are not shed anually like antlers are)
gene has nothing to do with it my idea is to produce a larger quantity of deer regardless of antler size, I did not say my idea for a 4 point season was permanent, it would be more of a 10 year plan to increase the population of mule deer in areas, then the restrictions would be lifted... I am not a trophy hunter a big rack is merely a bonus to me.

kind of goes against what you want dosn't it[?]
No, in this case I believe in quantity over quality.

Or are you under the illusion that ever deer over 2 or 3 years old is a 4 point.
No, I am not.

A 4pt season will not build up the population of mule deer....!!!!! If we want more deer we need to wrap our head around habitat enhancement and forget about various buck only regulations as they won't make any difference.

[dana]

Are the wannabe trophy hunters of this province willing to not hunt bucks for 20, 30 or 40 years just so they can have a crack at an absolute giant? That is exactly what the Strip is. The majority of those that do draw after years and years of waiting actually don't even see a decent buck during their hunt. In reality only a small handful of giants are killed. Mainly with the aid of highly priced guides who pretty much eat, sleep and breath the Strip year round. The number of 200 inch+ deer that are actually killed are very very low. I would be willing to bet that BC cranks out more 200 inch deer every year and we don't have to wait years for a draw. Choose your poison. Do you want to hunt or do you want to sit on your hands reading about the odd monster that is killed?

[WKCotts]

well said dana


Are the wannabe trophy hunters of this province willing to not hunt bucks for 20, 30 or 40 years just so they can have a crack at an absolute giant? That is exactly what the Strip is. The majority of those that do draw after years and years of waiting actually don't even see a decent buck during their hunt. In reality only a small handful of giants are killed. Mainly with the aid of highly priced guides who pretty much eat, sleep and breath the Strip year round. The number of 200 inch+ deer that are actually killed are very very low. I would be willing to bet that BC cranks out more 200 inch deer every year and we don't have to wait years for a draw. Choose your poison. Do you want to hunt or do you want to sit on your hands reading about the odd monster that is killed?

[Jelvis]

It's all about time you put into hunting in the bush, time + effort = success
You gotta get your sorry ass off the Lazy Boy, and put the Cheeto's down, now get out in the bush where the deer are.
Jelly ( Bush ) Buster .. Bust yer Bunz for Bucks! .. Bustin Brush Bucks .. Bad Boyz .. Roman Nose Battlers ..

[Husky7mm]

Try to go through this point by point.

The buck:doe ratios are low in two MUs as they always have been, even before the any buck season.
There are MUs that high very high buck:doe ratios, the same MUs where hunters are complaining about the mule deer
Changing the buck season won't help the deer population.
The 1 in 2 or 1 in 3 rule doesn't work; they already tried it in the peace and it was an abject failure.
You don't have liberal elk seasons, you have a 6 pt 'recovery' season that's gone on about 10 years longer than it should have
Predators do discriminate, bucks and fawns are far more susceptible to predation than mature does are for a variety of reasons

Your problem is habitat, hunting regulations do not fix habitat.

Just curious why the 1-2 year failed? Iirc it was also used for sheep..... seems like a like a fair way to provide a balance between less resrictive "opportunity" and a quaility hunt on game that has a demand higher than the supply?

[Ron.C]

Pleased excuse my ignorance after reading this thread as I am no biologist. But do a bucks Genes change as he gets more mature?

I would think the genes he has, are the ones he was bred with, and the ones he will pass on. So if this buck breeds when he is a fork, does he not pass on the same genes as he would if he were allowed to grow to a big 4 point?

I do agree with the buck/doe ration being key to producing healthy heard numbers, but as long as there are sexually mature deer able to breed that come form good genetics, then should the herd not remain healthy, barring heavy predation/habitat loss/availability of year round food.

And if this is the case, as long as you don't decimate all the bucks, and maintain that breeding population, why would it matter if they have two points or 4, unless you are only concerned about trophy potential

[bighornbob]

Pleased excuse my ignorance after reading this thread as I am no biologist. But do a bucks Genes change as he gets more mature?

I would think the genes he has, are the ones he was bred with, and the ones he will pass on. So if this buck breeds when he is a fork, does he not pass on the same genes as he would if he were allowed to grow to a big 4 point?

I do agree with the buck/doe ration being key to producing healthy heard numbers, but as long as there are sexually mature deer able to breed that come form good genetics, then should the herd not remain healthy, barring heavy predation/habitat loss/availability of year round food.

And if this is the case, as long as you don't decimate all the bucks, and maintain that breeding population, why would it matter if they have two points or 4, unless you are only concerned about trophy potential

Ding ding ding we have a winner.

You are absolutely correct, sperm is sperm. It stays the same if the buck is a two point and when he becomes a 4 point.

BHB

[Jelvis]

A young buck is not a proven stud, he can do things that come natural, in body and mind with a wild spirit, but he's only a two year old that might have genes of pure muscle and sinew, with muscle mass and big strong bones, but what about staying power? Lasting til old age is a slice, he might last forever but if he's real smart he might make ii another day and night if he's careful.
A buck that has reached five and a half years old is big, mature and solid, his antlers are going to be 24 +, inches wide, and high with some mass with his genetics from mom and dads sides. He;s a five and half year survivor warrior.
He cannot make a mistake either, or he won't make six.
Most bucks are done by 3 years old. BOOM! or attacked by coyotes, cougar or other canines and cats.
Some starve in a bad winter others survive.
Jel ( When ) the goin gits ruff, the ruff git goin ..

[Husky7mm]

Pleased excuse my ignorance after reading this thread as I am no biologist. But do a bucks Genes change as he gets more mature?

I would think the genes he has, are the ones he was bred with, and the ones he will pass on. So if this buck breeds when he is a fork, does he not pass on the same genes as he would if he were allowed to grow to a big 4 point?

I do agree with the buck/doe ration being key to producing healthy heard numbers, but as long as there are sexually mature deer able to breed that come form good genetics, then should the herd not remain healthy, barring heavy predation/habitat loss/availability of year round food.

And if this is the case, as long as you don't decimate all the bucks, and maintain that breeding population, why would it matter if they have two points or 4, unless you are only concerned about trophy potential

Good stuff Ron, I dont think anyone would disagree with you.
A very important part of your statement read as follows "as long as you dont decimate all the bucks" Liberal regulations, combined with, tonnes of access and large amounts of hunters concentated in these areas because of "networking" and other liberal seasons has actually set up this type of problem. Before I get jumped on, it is a localized problem. Very few people really care about "trophy potential" but if you wade through thousands of post over the last almost 10 yrs you will see that most hunters hope/wish for a "decent", "mature", "good" buck at sometime in their hunting careers. Can you imagine if rams were open after a yr or two old..... Wild game is the most expensive meat out there and there should be more to the whole experience than just the first piece of easy meat that comes along or worse yet forcing that to be most hunters only option......

[Gateholio]

Thankfully, BC hunters have far more options than just killing the first piece of easy meat that comes along.

[steel_ram]

Ding ding ding we have a winner.

You are absolutely correct, sperm is sperm. It stays the same if the buck is a two point and when he becomes a 4 point.

BHB

The Darwin theory? Survival of the fittest. Long term, you want only the best, the ones that have proved their worth to pass on their genes. Same reason we don't use hatchery reared fish as broodstock.