The elk of 4-25..

[schilly101]

why has nothing been done to help the herds in the palliser river and area? the populations are nothing even remotely close to what there was 25+ years ago the few that are left are in very small groups in very spred out areas. there is still winter range left were these elk could winter maybee not enough for the elk numbers of the 70's but i cant see why numbers half or 2/3 arnt reachable. a few years back i remember seeing a bunch of very friendly elk hanging out along the river bottom near the kootenay, im guessing a transplant was tried? being as friendly as they where im guessing they became wolf bait quickly... wolves seem out of control every time im in there ive always seen at least one. even the mule deer seem to be in the same situation. the game trails are slowly disapearing..and i have not seen an elk in the slides of the little elk in many years..maybee theres a couple left in them but nothing like of the past. why is nothing done here? my dad has hunted the area before roads had hardly touched the area and before the wolves were reintroduced and the storys are unreal..it would be nice to see it at least within the ballpark of its potential!

[Jelvis]

I can't believe all the threads on low animal pops. What's up with that?
Not any wheres near 25 years ago? Wow. Should be fairly close but not even remotely close is scary.
Jel .. Any others noticing this up the Palliser?

[Ron.C]

don't know what it was like 25 years ago, only hunted it for the first time about 5 years back. I Grizzly hunted the Albert Rvr area next river north from the Palliser and was seeing elk sign. Two years ago I was out there deer/moose hunting the last week of Oct/first of Nov and we were in elk ever day. Saw a few good bulls too right in the Valley bottoms. And I find good sheds everytime I'm out there. I did archery hunt the Little Elk Cr area the first time I was there and played cat/mouse with the same small herd for about three days. Like I said, I have no idea what is was like 25 years ago.

[schilly101]

there was a pretty good population many years ago there but roads into the area brought in the hunting pressure, by the early 90's the hunting camps during the elk season were everyweres! even today many of these old camps around every corner are still visible. 4 wheelers hit the market making it alot easyer for hunters to get into places...wolves were introduced to the cross/mitchell river area and soon covered the entire area. and cow tags soon became popular eliminating the old heard cows that knew the ways to the wintering grounds many many miles south. today there is still elk there but the numbers are nothing impressive...i spend a fair time there every year during the summer and fall and i know were to still find elk but i mean places that used to hold 30 cows a bug herd bull and several satalight bulls now might hold 2-6 cows and calfs and a smaller bull...and then the next group will be in another vally over...not the next slide or next mountian over like it used to be. i was there just 2 weekends ago and saw 4 cows and a few places with a track or two but this was after spending the whole weekend out looking around driving many miles and glassing many slides you can not drive to. the taggarts (not sure on the spelling of their name) used to guide in the palliser area and the old man always said mrs. taggert made "a damn good pie!" but when the elk population began to fall there son cody sold the outfit and since i dont belive the new owner or owners have had close to the same success and im not even sure they are doing hunts anymore altho i could easily be wrong on this...like i say sure there are still elk here and there but nothing compaired to to what it used to be or even close to what other areas hold in the east koots. theres gotta be sombody on here thats hunted the area say in the 60's to 1990 im sure they will agree the population dropped big time and has never realy came back that well compaired to other areas.

[LBM]

The tame elk a few years back were problem elk from banff. When were wolves reintroduced to the area and where did they bring them from and who did it.

[Timberjack]

seriously - elk were introduced into the cross and mitchell river areas? i find that hard to believe... Anyone else know about this?

TJ

[.300WSMImpact!]

I dont know the area, but in my home area the old guys say much the same, talk of less animals nothing like we use to have, but if you think about it I think the animals are there they just have learned to avoid humans, back in the day there was no quads, no off road vehicals either, less roads and less hunters.

[6616]

What's happened in the Pallisier and Albert in my opinion is the same as what's happened in the Upper Wildhorse/Lussier, Bugaboo, Spillimacheen, Horsethief, etc, and pretty much all over the EK, and in fact in many areas of BC. The elk are not in the upper tributary valleys like they used to be back in the 70's and 80's. During the 60's and 70's massive clearcutting took place in many of these tributaries followed by many years of a shortfall in reforestation. As a result summer habitat in these upper tributaries reached an all time high and elk and mulie populations occupied these areas in large numbers up to the late 80's and early 90's. Now all those old cutblocks are overgrown and closed in with new conifer regen and can no longer support the ungulate populations they could when they were in a high state of suitability as ungulate summer range with unlimited deciduous forage species. I've noted the same thing in many areas. There's still lots of elk, they're just not in the same places they used to be, most of them seem to summer now in the upper elevations of the main Trench and only small numbers of them migrate into the headwater areas of the tributaries. I do not recall any elk transplants taking place and wolves were not reintroduced, as far as I know they repopulated themselves naturally from small populations originating in the National Parks and expanded in respose to growing ungulate populations during the early '80s.

There's really nothing anyone can do about it. It's the effect of natural forest succession. Second pass logging in those tributaries will not occur for several more decades in most of those valleys, and when it does happen we'll never see the massive clear-cuts we saw back in the 70's ever again so that was very likely a "one-time only" event. The only thing that could change the course of future events would be a huge wildfire that would wipe out an entire tributary valley.

[Jelvis]

Sounds believable six.

[schilly101]

What's happened in the Pallisier and Albert in my opinion is the same as what's happened in the Upper Wildhorse/Lussier, Bugaboo, Spillimacheen, Horsethief, etc, and pretty much all over the EK, and in fact in many areas of BC. The elk are not in the upper tributary valleys like they used to be back in the 70's and 80's. During the 60's and 70's massive clearcutting took place in many of these tributaries followed by many years of a shortfall in reforestation. As a result summer habitat in these upper tributaries reached an all time high and elk and mulie populations occupied these areas in large numbers up to the late 80's and early 90's. Now all those old cutblocks are overgrown and closed in with new conifer regen and can no longer support the ungulate populations they could when they were in a high state of suitability as ungulate summer range with unlimited deciduous forage species. I've noted the same thing in many areas. There's still lots of elk, they're just not in the same places they used to be, most of them seem to summer now in the upper elevations of the main Trench and only small numbers of them migrate into the headwater areas of the tributaries. I do not recall any elk transplants taking place and wolves were not reintroduced, as far as I know they repopulated themselves naturally from small populations originating in the National Parks and expanded in respose to growing ungulate populations during the early '80s.

There's really nothing anyone can do about it. It's the effect of natural forest succession. Second pass logging in those tributaries will not occur for several more decades in most of those valleys, and when it does happen we'll never see the massive clear-cuts we saw back in the 70's ever again so that was very likely a "one-time only" event. The only thing that could change the course of future events would be a huge wildfire that would wipe out an entire tributary valley.

i agree so much with you its nice to see sombody ellse with a thought process that goes beyond "they are just hideing"! the transplanted elk i am talking about was around 20+ animals..spikes..cows..calfs..they were so friendly it was october we were hunting and i have pictures of them about 6 feet from the truck and actualy one came up when we were parked and licked my side window and tail light..i wish i would have thought to grab the camera for this! they were not up the mitchell/cross as sombody said..they were along the kootaney not far from the kootaney crossing junction. ive been around the block a few times i enjoy sucess yearly and not with spikes and cows..i know were to find animals and the palliser just doesnt have very good elk numbers..YES theres some there but they are in tiney groups with miles of ground between them and the next. the only thing with the clearcut theory tho of yours is what about up the main valley were there never was logging the road stops and the horse trail continues to the alberta border..this area was full of elk..slide after slide..ive made several trips into there in the last 10 years summer and fall untill the river washed out some of the crossings a year or 3 back and the sign was very little...rideing all day we would MAYBEE see 3 or 4 tracks a far cry from the 20 or 30 to a group during the rut in a slide of the old days...but like you say..they just dont go back to the far high tributaries like they used to..as for the wolves being transplanted this is what my father has told me but maybee he had heard it wrong from another source and they had just came from the parks...maybee not..eather way they wernt there when he first started hunting it but over time they multiplied to the point u cant help but see one almost daily!

[schilly101]

but what i dont understand is why we have the same hunting regulations for places like this as we do for the lower areas that have lots of elk...if the hunting pressure was reduced in say the palliser via LEH..short seasons..areas closed for a few years or whatever.. and the pressure was increased on the farm lands would this not chase them back to traditional areas? and somthing ellse i dont get is ranchers complain about the elk in their fields but yet they send cows out into the elks winter range to eat and trample the elks food all summer long!

[traderphil]

I hunted the Palliser River /Little Elk Creek area for years , back in the 80's and 90's. Too many hunters and wolves and the population dropped hard in just a few years, unfortunately. Time to thin the wolf populations , whenever possible, in my opinion! I know i am going to , whenever i get the chance, for sure.

[Jelvis]

schilly I hear you and your desire to have a hunting paradise full of healthy wild life including the majestic Rocky Mtn Elk.
In MU 4-25 we have good elk and moose hunting country with fair mule and whitetail as well.
Mountain sheep and goat with the grizzzz in the higher parts .. (see reg's)
MU 4-25 is the Upper Kootenay River heading in from famous Canal Flats along the west side road up Kootenay River with lots of branches and spurs running back from the river road.
Motor vehicle closures on Cross River, Fenwick Creek and Albert River roads. What fantastic country to C.
Has been good elk in the past and should have a herd or ten roaming around the high country ..
Bulls, cows and calves ..
Jel Good Luck in MU 4-25 for elk and other big game This MU is one of the most beautiful hunting areas in the world.

[hunter1947]

Like Andy 6616 has said the numbers are not as hi in this area as back in the day this goes for other areas as well but the elk are still in these areas but not in big numbers work with whats out there and you will get lucky or go to another region where the numbers are greater..

[Bugle M In]

i agree so much with you its nice to see sombody ellse with a thought process that goes beyond "they are just hideing"! the transplanted elk i am talking about was around 20+ animals..spikes..cows..calfs..they were so friendly it was october we were hunting and i have pictures of them about 6 feet from the truck and actualy one came up when we were parked and licked my side window and tail light..i wish i would have thought to grab the camera for this! they were not up the mitchell/cross as sombody said..they were along the kootaney not far from the kootaney crossing junction. ive been around the block a few times i enjoy sucess yearly and not with spikes and cows..i know were to find animals and the palliser just doesnt have very good elk numbers..YES theres some there but they are in tiney groups with miles of ground between them and the next. the only thing with the clearcut theory tho of yours is what about up the main valley were there never was logging the road stops and the horse trail continues to the alberta border..this area was full of elk..slide after slide..ive made several trips into there in the last 10 years summer and fall untill the river washed out some of the crossings a year or 3 back and the sign was very little...rideing all day we would MAYBEE see 3 or 4 tracks a far cry from the 20 or 30 to a group during the rut in a slide of the old days...but like you say..they just dont go back to the far high tributaries like they used to..as for the wolves being transplanted this is what my father has told me but maybee he had heard it wrong from another source and they had just came from the parks...maybee not..eather way they wernt there when he first started hunting it but over time they multiplied to the point u cant help but see one almost daily!
As I Recall, this group of elk were transplanted from Banff.
They were actually to be used to repopulate the numbers in Kootenay National Park.
However, At the time, this park did nothing to improve the habitat for these elk or any other elk.
It took no time what so ever for these elk to leave the park, minutes in fact, and head
down into the kootenay river outside the park where logging was prevalant, and thus feed was there.
Their freindly dispossition lead to them being easy targets.....leh tags.
As for finding them up the mountains in scree slopes, it is my understanding that the lack of snow levels,
thus the lack of snow slides / avalanches, means that new feed is not there as in the past.
The park did have the first ever fire, to rehabilatate the park to maybe once again bring big game back to the park.
As for wolves, I never heard of them being reintroduced, but they are all over in that unit, and have large packs.
Higher pack numbers then normal....up to 30 in a group, i think the norm is 15???
The leh for cows years ago really made a mess of things in my opinion.
Clearcuts help, buit fire and big ones is whats needed.
I think the cr4eate better feed, but without the roads and easier access.
Hope the numbers come back again one day, sure is beautiful country!

[The Dude]

I'm also not aware of any wolves being re-introduced anywhere in BC.
We need more people to target them, trap and hunt them.
We also could use more controlled burns, but I think the Pine Beetle and lightning will take care of that for us.
The Great Zucchini foresees some pretty good hunting for the next two decades, as long as we get a handle on the wolves.

[j270wsm]

Due to the leh cow tags and a few hard winters back in the 90's, the elk population in the elk valley dropped drastically. Since going to the 6pt season we watched the population sky rocket, but with increased elk numbers means increased predator numbers, especially wolves. We all know how much wolves eat, so if the palliser has lots of wolves then that's probably where a huge percentage of the elk are going same as your mule deer. Kill the wolves and the rest will start to come back.

[schilly101]

but why isnt anything being done in these places? perscribed burns and/or shorter seasons sound to me like a good way to lure the elk back to the valleys and out of the farms..the wolves..who knows..a guy shooting one or two here or there isnt going to make enough of an impact. it blows me away that nothing is being done to bring the animals back to these places!

[Elk-Aholic]

I'm also not aware of any wolves being re-introduced anywhere in BC.
We need more people to target them, trap and hunt them.
We also could use more controlled burns, but I think the Pine Beetle and lightning will take care of that for us.
The Great Zucchini foresees some pretty good hunting for the next two decades, as long as we get a handle on the wolves.

BINGO! Well said. So many people fail to realize the damage wolves/cougars/bears/coyotes do on ungulates. These animals hunt 365 24/7 and never stop! Time for some people to wake up and start getting lead in the air at these predators. Mix in some forest fires and watch the overall health of a herd increase.

[TyTy]

I have worked and hunted in 4-24 and 4-25. That place is well managed. Prescribed burns have occured there and harvesting of bunk pulp timber, just to mimic the fire disturbance that has been removed. Some nice cutblocks out there too. I think that place has an abundance of ungulates and predators. Hopefully we see more habitat management out that way.

[6616]

i agree so much with you its nice to see sombody ellse with a thought process that goes beyond "they are just hideing"! the transplanted elk i am talking about was around 20+ animals..spikes..cows..calfs..they were so friendly it was october we were hunting and i have pictures of them about 6 feet from the truck and actualy one came up when we were parked and licked my side window and tail light..i wish i would have thought to grab the camera for this! they were not up the mitchell/cross as sombody said..they were along the kootaney not far from the kootaney crossing junction. ive been around the block a few times i enjoy sucess yearly and not with spikes and cows..i know were to find animals and the palliser just doesnt have very good elk numbers..YES theres some there but they are in tiney groups with miles of ground between them and the next. the only thing with the clearcut theory tho of yours is what about up the main valley were there never was logging the road stops and the horse trail continues to the alberta border..this area was full of elk..slide after slide..ive made several trips into there in the last 10 years summer and fall untill the river washed out some of the crossings a year or 3 back and the sign was very little...rideing all day we would MAYBEE see 3 or 4 tracks a far cry from the 20 or 30 to a group during the rut in a slide of the old days...but like you say..they just dont go back to the far high tributaries like they used to..as for the wolves being transplanted this is what my father has told me but maybee he had heard it wrong from another source and they had just came from the parks...maybee not..eather way they wernt there when he first started hunting it but over time they multiplied to the point u cant help but see one almost daily!

Much of that habitat (particularily slide paths) has been compromised by natural forest ingrowth and encroachment. Some of the meadow areas in the valley bottom have been affected by forest ingrowth as well. I know of at least one spot in there where elk used to winter but after a large clearcut took place the elk abandoned the meadow area because there was no longer any thermal or escape cover nearby.

The same situation exists north of the Park in the headwaters of the Kootenay at Boyce Meadows. The large herds there no longer exist in numbers previously wtinessed. Reasons are the same, succession of logged areas, influx of wolves, over-hunting of antlerless elk during the mid-'80's, and forest ingrowth into the slides and meadows. Large scale habitat restoration or a natural wildfire are required. Restoration of that nature includes controlled burns and can cost up to $500 to $1000 per ha. we could use many, many, millions of dollars in the Kootenay to restore habitat.

Lots of stuff has happened and changed over the decades. There's still lots of elk but they're mainly living in the main Trench, densities are higher than ever in the main Trench - more animals on less habitat, but much lower densities in the tributary valleys.

[schilly101]

Much of that habitat (particularily slide paths) has been compromised by natural forest ingrowth and encroachment. Some of the meadow areas in the valley bottom have been affected by forest ingrowth as well. I know of at least one spot in there where elk used to winter but after a large clearcut took place the elk abandoned the meadow area because there was no longer any thermal or escape cover nearby.

The same situation exists north of the Park in the headwaters of the Kootenay at Boyce Meadows. The large herds there no longer exist in numbers previously wtinessed. Reasons are the same, succession of logged areas, influx of wolves, over-hunting of antlerless elk during the mid-'80's, and forest ingrowth into the slides and meadows. Large scale habitat restoration or a natural wildfire are required. Restoration of that nature includes controlled burns and can cost up to $500 to $1000 per ha. we could use many, many, millions of dollars in the Kootenay to restore habitat.

Lots of stuff has happened and changed over the decades. There's still lots of elk but they're mainly living in the main Trench, densities are higher than ever in the main Trench - more animals on less habitat, but much lower densities in the tributary valleys.

Thank you, a few of you on here have helped me see the answers to what ive wondered for a long time, i know the medow with the clearcut you speak of and it makes sence what you have said about it. its too bad that fires are put out so quickly in some locations for a valley of its size there are not that many newer burns to help the animals. i hope that not all of the tributarys in the kootenays are like this, there is alot of ground ive yet to see and would like to some day be able to watch elk in the slides in larger groups like they once where..not within eye sight of a town or farmers field.