12 month open season of moose!!

[curt]

Well I just came back from a fishing resort in the Kamloops area I wont put any heat on the owner by saying which one, but I was having a conversation with him about hunting he was telling me the Natives in that area are slaughtering moose by the dozens!!! Then I read threads about moose populations down by almost 60% in some area WELL I WONDER WHY!?!?!? This particular guy watched through his binoculars 1 native with 6 white guys shoot an entire herd of moose 7 animals, then he told me while snowmobiling in late feburary just this past winter he came across 10 gut piles in only a few KM's. He mention a serious decline in the number of animals they are used to seeing, its a sad situation but the government wont take a stand so who loses out in the end ..............we will unfortunately!!!:(

[quadrakid]

So you believe everything some resort owner tells you? Bunch of hearsay, or a complete troll as you know where this thread will go.

[elkdom]

a herd of 7 moose in the Kamloops area ??? that must be the entire Thompson/Nicola moose population in 1 spot ??

7 moose just stand there and suck up lead from 7 guys shooting at them ???

then 10 gut piles in only a "FEW km's" in winter, ???

Fact !,,,,,coyotes and ravens clean up gut piles in winter almost as quick as the gut pile hits the ground !


SOUNDS to me like the "owner of the Resort" you stayed at is a remarkable and biased Bull$hitter ! so is his friend ! IF a friend really exists in this fairytale ?

how big are the Rainbow Trout in his lake ??? ......80 or 90 pounds ???? :lol:

[The Dude]

One extra large popcorn, please! :D

[Bow Walker]

Happening over in the Nicola Valley too........

[swampdonkey]

Happening over in the Nicola Valley too........
It's been happening for at least the past 15 years that i know of

[hunter1993ap]

i think those of you that think its not happening are in denial. its somewhat comforting where the population can handle the constant slaughter but there are places where it is taking a major toll on the wildlife. you can choose to believe the guy if you wish it doesnt change whats going on. mabey he exagerated mabey he didnt but i sure dont think he made something up out of thin air.

[swampdonkey]

Think what you want elkdom but i have seen this shit happen in 3-20 and now 3-19

[Wrj]

Heresay or not, the fact of the matter is that it seems to be taboo for our polititians (and us) to question aboriginal harvesting practices. There needs to be a middle ground for aboriginal hunting, it would be unfortunate in 5 years if we didn't have a moose season in certain regions. And it would be a tragedy if we had no moose to hunt in 10.

[tackdriver]

i think those of you that think its not happening are in denial. its somewhat comforting where the population can handle the constant slaughter but there are places where it is taking a major toll on the wildlife. you can choose to believe the guy if you wish it doesnt change whats going on. mabey he exagerated mabey he didnt but i sure dont think he made something up out of thin air.

x2 took the words from my mouth.

[anglo-saxon]

I thought FN could only hunt like that on the res, otherwise they are subject to the same hunting laws as everyone else in which case the scenario originally described here would be poaching, wouldn't it?

[SUAFOYT]

Odds on this thread being closed soon?

[MuleyMadness]

I thought FN could only hunt like that on the res, otherwise they are subject to the same hunting laws as everyone else in which case the scenario originally described here would be poaching, wouldn't it?

Technically.....but you need some political will to enforce the law, of which there is none.

Hell a few years back, a friend who was the ranch manager at the Nicola Ranch, called the COs because the natives were cutting his fences to access the ranch OWNED private land and shooting moose out of season. They flat out told him there was nothing they would, or could do, including for the destruction of property and tresspass. Even a few beef were shot either by mistake or malice, and that was only met with a shrug of the shoulders.

We have hunted 3-19 a lot over the years and Elkdom you are completely wrong, there is (was) a very, very healthy moose population in that region. Of course not 7B healthy, but I would challenge you to find another MU in 3, 8, or Southern 5 that had a better moose population up to about 6 or so years ago. 5 reserves encircle the area, and each one is hitting it hard. A couple of years ago, the last time we put our moose draw in for the area (successful too) we saw as many gut piles, or the remainders, as we did moose...yes they clean them up fast, but when 6 or 8 new ones are being 'made' in a night, they do last a few days.

The only option to save the animals and OUR traditional hunting rights is to hold them accountable, along with predator control. If we don't, there is going to be very little in the way of moose for anyone to hunt....because the 'guardians of nature' couldn't give a shit about conservation.

[Jagermeister]

a herd of 7 moose in the Kamloops area ??? that must be the entire Thompson/Nicola moose population in 1 spot ??

7 moose just stand there and suck up lead from 7 guys shooting at them ???

then 10 gut piles in only a "FEW km's" in winter, ???

Fact !,,,,,coyotes and ravens clean up gut piles in winter almost as quick as the gut pile hits the ground !


SOUNDS to me like the "owner of the Resort" you stayed at
is a remarkable and biased Bull$hitter ! so is his friend ! IF a friend really exists in this fairytale ?

how big are the Rainbow Trout in his lake ??? ......80 or 90 pounds ???? :lol:
I thought you were brighter than indicated by this post.
We all know that moose will "yard up" in the winter when they are driven from their summer range to lower elevations due to increased snow levels. This may be the entire regional population as you suggest and it makes total sense for the numbers as suggested.
By the description given by the original poster, I know where he is referring to. I can say that the resort owner is not a "remarkable and biased Bull$hitter!" On the contrary, he is an outstanding and honest person and will tell you that the Rainbow trout are rather small because there are too many fish in the lake to allow for greater growth.

[BigfishCanada]

This happened over near my Pinantan House with an elk heard (not stating natives, I have no idea what group this guy was with)....BUT I dont believe anything happened to the poacher.

[quadrakid]

I have no doubt that unlimited hunting by natives can be a problem and that there are abuses of their rights to hunt when it comes to conservation concerns. My question is what is the point of threads like this? Native bashing on HBC may make you feel better but joining a wildlife association that lobbies the government over issues like this might be more productive. A letter or email to your MLA might be a good way to voice your concerns. Maybe even trying to get local media to have an unbiased look at these issues,tough one for sure.Fact is they have rights to hunt that supercede the general population. Wanton acts of slaughter by any group should be reported. I don,t agree with the way things are but i don,t see the point of native bashing threads.

[steel_ram]

C'mon, the natives are the stewards of the land. They care about future wildlife and all the individuals of the "nation" agree and follow the agreements made by their elders. They wouldn't dream of taking advantage of the system or the governments non-willingness to go up against them. It's the wolves fault . . . remember?

[The Dawg]

http://www.nenah.org/Gifs/Feelings/not-this-conversation-again.gif


http://www.gifflix.com/files/a42dd54ccd75.gif

[Glenny]

Think what you want elkdom but i have seen this shit happen in 3-20 and now 3-19

x2..3-18,19.....Lots of target practice fork bucks laying about too.

[ufishifish2]

Quadrakid, this isn't a thread about bashing natives, atleast that is not what I take it for. It is simply an attempt to make blind people like ELkdom open their eyes to reality. Educate them a bit.
I work in the bush five days a week and have seen a considerable rise in the number of moose being poached once hunting season is over and the honest hunters are out of the bush.
I find it disgusting to see these so called 'stewards of the land' driving around in their pickup trucks shooting as many moose as they can. I have seen the heads and gut piles from cows, calves, and bulls on numerous occasions each fall, and having seen the guys in their trucks on a first hand basis I can definately point a fairly accurate finger at the perps.
Suggesting to send a letter to your MLA has gotta be a joke right?? They are about as useless as tits on a nun.
IBTL

[wildcatter]

Nothing new here, many years ago I was driving up the Dempster hwy in early winter, right on the middle of the road
a bunch of natives were target shooting, their aim was a caribou herd just off the highway.
Dozens of empty shells on the ground, some dead animals down and a bunch of wounded limping off the distance.

[Allen50]

only pic will prove it all,, get pic,,,,
:confused:

[redwards92]

I hear if you marry a native woman you get a status card hunting rights includedd:wink:

[recoil]

I was talking to a native from the Douglas lake band last hunting season and he was telling me there is somewhat of a family feud going on between the elders and some of the younger members who feel the need to blast away at anything that moves. Their official policy is to hunt bulls only but he was telling me that 6 cow moose were shot in a two week period last hunting season. He was a nice fellow and i don't think he had any reason to mislead. Coinidentally we had a moose draw for 3-12 and in 5 days saw no moose of any sort, the only saving grace was we were able to bag 3 deer between us.

[Stéphane]

It's always better to hear both sides of a story. Right now, we have one side being told by a third guy (or second if we count the gut pile being seen by the owner). Perhaps even FN would not approve of this. We don't know!
Last fall, I was bowhunting while FN were allowed to kill as many animals as they wished. First, being very upset about it, but then I had a chance to chat with two of the hunters. One of them the butcher. I learned that they only hunted males and that they used these pow wow to supply food to elderly who can't hunt. They were very friendly and had no problems helping us out.

So, we can all choose who we believe. It's a free country.

[nolimits]

[QUOTE=elkdom;1154628]a herd of 7 moose in the Kamloops area ??? that must be the entire Thompson/Nicola moose population in 1 spot ??

7 moose just stand there and suck up lead from 7 guys shooting at them ???

7 moose in 5-03 right after a fresh snowfall early in the morning. Unfortunately none of us 3 hunters had a tag! :cry:
http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo52/cariboo_2008/cariboo3.jpg (http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo52/cariboo_2008/cariboo3.jpg)


Wow, this almost looks like them moose had a "moose convention" or something. Nice pic.

[cameron0518]

Coming from someone that hunts with CURT, he is a stand up guy and honest. He would not state this unless he was certain. Also, take a look at his avatar as it might clue you in to the fact that this thread is not native bashing.
So you believe everything some resort owner tells you? Bunch of hearsay, or a complete troll as you know where this thread will go.

[r106]

I have no doubt that unlimited hunting by natives can be a problem and that there are abuses of their rights to hunt when it comes to conservation concerns. My question is what is the point of threads like this? Native bashing on HBC may make you feel better but joining a wildlife association that lobbies the government over issues like this might be more productive. A letter or email to your MLA might be a good way to voice your concerns. Maybe even trying to get local media to have an unbiased look at these issues,tough one for sure.Fact is they have rights to hunt that supercede the general population. Wanton acts of slaughter by any group should be reported. I don,t agree with the way things are but i don,t see the point of native bashing threads.


This is by no means native bashing. Threads get started about white poachers and we all talk about calling the co's, getting license plat# and what else to do to make sure they get busted. And people might keep an eye out for that stuff there area. But if it's an Indian it's just native bashing??? That train of thought is compete Bullsh*t.

[r106]

I was talking to a native from the Douglas lake band last hunting season and he was telling me there is somewhat of a family feud going on between the elders and some of the younger members who feel the need to blast away at anything that moves. Their official policy is to hunt bulls only but he was telling me that 6 cow moose were shot in a two week period last hunting season. He was a nice fellow and i don't think he had any reason to mislead. Coinidentally we had a moose draw for 3-12 and in 5 days saw no moose of any sort, the only saving grace was we were able to bag 3 deer between us.

That I can believe. It seems to be that kind of attitude with the younger generation no matter what there skin color

[curt]

Well 1st of all I'd like to say this in no way was a "bashing natives" thread it was simply meant to get it out there what was happening not that we didnt know but if we all turn a blind eye then nothing will ever change. As my good friend here mention not only am I part native myself my wife is a status Indian so I repsect the "Honest Natives" I'd also like to think I am a man of integrity and I have no reason to beleive the people I surround myself with are'nt similar to myself. I have no reason to not beleive what i was told and I have even less reason to beleive my friend would have any desire to make sh*t up!! This is a problem and somehow someway we need to figure out how we can deal with this in a collected reasonable manor. I dont disagree with natives feeding their families it is their right but I do disagree with feeding all thier buddies and their buddies buddies or shooting the odd moose for spare change it's BS sorry if this offends anyone!!

[curt]

I have another friend that visits this site often i wont name him but I'm sure he will read this, he has a similar experience in behind Williston lake!? A group of young natives went throught their camp while they were out and I mean went throught it.... inside their tents opened their rubbermade bins found some booze stashed in the bottom of a few bins took it ALL, drank it came back later that night with more friends and guns and intimidated my friends to the point they left and slept in their truck a few miles down the rd. My buddies went back in the morning to salvage what was left. Reported it on the way out the the nearest detachment and were basically laughed at told outright by an RCMP member they would not even consider following up on the report as their RCMP SUV had bullet holes in it from the local boys already!! So I say WTF is the matter with this picture!?!?!?

[frenchbar]

I have another friend that visits this site often i wont name him but I'm sure he will read this, he has a similar experience in behind Williston lake!? A group of young natives went throught their camp while they were out and I mean went throught it.... inside their tents opened their rubbermade bins found some booze stashed in the bottom of a few bins took it ALL, drank it came back later that night with more friends and guns and intimidated my friends to the point they left and slept in their truck a few miles down the rd. My buddies went back in the morning to salvage what was left. Reported it on the way out the the nearest detachment and were basically laughed at told outright by an RCMP member they would not even consider following up on the report as their RCMP SUV had bullet holes in it from the local boys already!! So I say WTF is the matter with this picture!?!?!?

send in the military undercover hunters . they would clean up scumbags like that in short order ...

[bob the tomato]

I personally have SEEN groups of natives on the island massacre a herd of elk, not a couple young bucks but around 4-5 OLDER fellows. after around 8-10 shots i left the area feeling pretty disgusted with the whole thing. We used to put in around tattla lake for moose but last time we were there natives would come out in the morning as we were heading out before first light and tell us how they had a good night hunting!! needless to say there is VERY few moose in the area compared to 10-15 years ago. maybe that's due to population cycles but i really don't think so! And if they each shot A moose to feed their family I could care less, but shooting a herd of elk or 5 moose each year is really not acceptable, by anyone in my opinion.

[gutpile]

nothing going to change in the next hundred years.

[shed-hunter1]

when i was a kid there was a family of natives they had shot so many deer that year they were compliang they had to much meat and couldnt even give it away but they were all going hunting that weekend my qeustion is how much meat is being wasted how can a guy eat 5 to 6 moose a year i know a butcher that says they will drop a moose off and get the whole thing made into jerky

[huntwriter]

So you believe everything some resort owner tells you? Bunch of hearsay, or a complete troll as you know where this thread will go.

I invite you to come up here and listen what the CO's have to tell you about the "moose slaughter".
The sad part is that politicians, the biologists and law enforcement know exactly what is going on here with the moose and who kills them all year around but they are all afraid to open THAT can of worms.

[NorthIslander]

You hit the nail on the head huntwriter,I personally do not believe there is a politician in BC that would dare to tackle this issue.It is sad to think that we must walk on eggshells and they keep coming with their hands out for more.The real sad part though is We keep on giving!!!

[quadrakid]

As i said earlier in this thread i don,t doubt the abuses done to our wildlife by some natives. I just don,t see the point of another thread that leads to a general bashing of all natives and then a lock.

[sky-gunner]

This will happen with any race or people's when there are no real rules or enforcement. Plain an simple, give any group the run of the land and they will rape it for all it has. Set some rules and actually enforce them. In other words f@ck the treaties and land claims, and start treating everyone the same. Get caught poaching loose everything you have on you, your truck your guns, and a hefty $100,000 dollar fine, don't pay jail for 10 years. That's how it should be for all. We live in the 21st century. Unless you can prove you hunt strictly for sustenance, same rules for everyone. You give anybody of any race too much freedom and they will abuse the shit out of it.

[Walking Buffalo]

Last year, Manitoba closed a vast area for an indefinate time period to ALL moose hunting.

There was "consultation" with the local aboriginal community.

There are reports from neighboring areas in Saskatchewan that Manitoban aboriginal hunters are hunting the new territory hard.


There are discussions in Alberta regarding specific areas of concern where it is believed Treaty harvest is having a severely negative impact on local game populations. Clomplete closures are being considered. However, potential closures are recognized to put additional pressure on neighboring areas, simply spreading the problem.


At it's core, this style of migratory extermination level harvest is standard behavior for most predators. Natural, yes. Smart .... ????

If the native leaders cannot educate their youth regarding sustainable harvest, the trend will continue until the governments are willing to renegotiate treaty hunting rights, which opens the lid on many other cans.


Public exposure of these incidents of excessive wildlife harvest is important. Few of us don't have a camera when outdoors. Take pics, and share. Evidence of Treaty hunting rights abuse is critical for any potential change.

[Bow Walker]

As i said earlier in this thread i don,t doubt the abuses done to our wildlife by some natives. I just don,t see the point of another thread that leads to a general bashing of all natives and then a lock.

I don't see this as a "bashing the natives" thread. I see this as a bunch of poachers taking moose illegally - which I abhor.

[Matty_ola]

Here's an easy fix, Completely deactivate FSR that are no longer in use. Put up gates on FSR where the moose population is suffering and you'll see the number start to climb again. Make it harder and harder to gain access with motorized vehicles and I think you'll find it will help.

Most people who shoot whatever the hell they want, do it from or near their truck. This might upset some actual legal hunters for cutting off access but god gave you two legs for a reason.

[rainman]

I invite you to come up here and listen what the CO's have to tell you about the "moose slaughter".
The sad part is that politicians, the biologists and law enforcement know exactly what is going on here with the moose and who kills them all year around but they are all afraid to open THAT can of worms.

you my friend hit it on the head

[91Jason91]

sadfsa fsa f

[r106]

I invite you to come up here and listen what the CO's have to tell you about the "moose slaughter".
The sad part is that politicians, the biologists and law enforcement know exactly what is going on here with the moose and who kills them all year around but they are all afraid to open THAT can of worms.

It's sad that they know people are committing crimes and there's nothing they can do.


As i said earlier in this thread i don,t doubt the abuses done to our wildlife by some natives. I just don,t see the point of another thread that leads to a general bashing of all natives and then a lock.

Then don't read or post on this topic! simple solution.

[curt]

The need for another thread is simple maybe at some point enough people will be tacking about it the right person will hear it and start the ball rolling!! There are some high up bio's and other bc wildlife federations types on here that eventually may have heard enough and do something about it, or we could take your approach and sit silent and defensive and do nothing or say nothing and carry on but if we choose to talk about it and stay informed like it was mentioned already you have the choice to not read it respectfully
CM

[Caribou_lou]

[QUOTE=curt;1154961]There are some high up bio's and other bc wildlife federations types on here that eventually may have heard enough and do something about it.


They already are doing something. They cut back the licenced Hunters LEH permits. Or just close the area all together.

[aggiehunter]

....tow.....

[olympia]

sounds to me like someone just needs an excuse to bash natives...i work with a guy like you haha he sits around in the lunchroom and talks about how natives hunt with m16s and how they beat up a bunch of white guys and took their fish and blah blah blah

[Spy]

[QUOTE=olympia;1155092]sounds to me like someone just needs an excuse to bash natives...
Why would you say that! Do you have proof that they don,t hunt at night with spot lights, out of season & shoot @ eyes in the dark! Lots of people seen this kind of thing go down or the aftermath the next day! Real stewards !!! So are you are calling Curt & a couple other members liers !

[Caribou_lou]

In the Nass region the natives now have to obtain a permit and report any kills. Because the moose populaion is at an all time low. I don't see why this can't be imposed province wide... On all species.

[NaStY]

sounds to me like someone just needs an excuse to bash natives...i work with a guy like you haha he sits around in the lunchroom and talks about how natives hunt with m16s and how they beat up a bunch of white guys and took their fish and blah blah blah

I personaly dont see anything wrong with this thread yet.....

Nothing wrong with a good debate and discussion.

It sure will be nice when they finally do something about the fishing and the wildlife as far as im concerned.......................

[NaStY]

I think its really going to come down to whose got the biggest finger to push the button to move forward. Nobody high up has the balls yet.............................

[NaStY]

I think all we will have left is chum salmon fishing and grouse. The only 2 food groups natives dont eat........

[sawmill]

I`ve seen it happen up around Hazelton too,why do you think the GOS is only 6 days long there.Anybody who denies there is a problem just aint very informed.

[drewsky]

So there has to be somebody on here that knows someone that knows someone that.... Can get the ball rolling??? Whats the next step? Petition? How do we voice? Or do we just bitch to each other about it? Time to be heard!!!!!

[boxhitch]

Part of the issue is the fact the Wildlife Act doesn't have the teeth to deal with certain problems.
The Wildlife Act review process started a couple of years ago was tabled, once they realized the consultation and challenges involved, nobody really wanted to open the can of worms.
Basically saying we are better off status quo rather than what we could wind up with after.

[elkdom]

I thought you were brighter than indicated by this post.
We all know that moose will "yard up" in the winter when they are driven from their summer range to lower elevations due to increased snow levels. This may be the entire regional population as you suggest and it makes total sense for the numbers as suggested.
By the description given by the original poster, I know where he is referring to. I can say that the resort owner is not a "remarkable and biased Bull$hitter!" On the contrary, he is an outstanding and honest person and will tell you that the Rainbow trout are rather small because there are too many fish in the lake to allow for greater growth.

you obviously are not bright enough to realize that 6 or 7 moose will not stand still there like do-do-birds waiting to be systematically shot,,,

these hurtin--squirtin-some-body-else -shot-MY-moose-threads really make me laugh,,,whiners, complainers, boo-hoo-ers,,,

if YA'ALL spent as much time actually hunting as whining on the internet, you actually might have some success !

[Fishhound]

I invite you to come up here and listen what the CO's have to tell you about the "moose slaughter".
The sad part is that politicians, the biologists and law enforcement know exactly what is going on here with the moose and who kills them all year around but they are all afraid to open THAT can of worms.

We report kids throwing and leaving trash all over the place a lake near Peachland to the news, but this kind of thing is just posted on this forum, unbelievable.

If this kind of thing is/has been documented by these people and they are doing nothing about it they should all be fired.

[stitch]

Happens all across Canada my friends. I have a cousin I grew up with in Nova Scotia and found out that he has been hunting Moose with the natives ( his so called friends) for the past few years. I called him on his bullshit and called it like it is.....straight out poaching. Don't talk to the guy anymore and have no desire to talk with him.

[NaStY]

We report kids throwing and leaving trash all over the place a lake near Peachland to the news, but this kind of thing is just posted on this forum, unbelievable.

If this kind of thing is/has been documented by these people and they are doing nothing about it they should all be fired.

Its just not that simple. There seems to be more of a "hush" affect when it comes to some social issues. That said by all means take out a camera when this is going on and get as much media involved as you can. If we all did something, then something will happen. If we just sit here and watch, then nothing will happen.

Ive called in many of sockeye dumps on the Fraser. When I ran the river alot, I called in what was done to the pinks in the fall.

[rainman]

i posted this topic on cgn a couple of years ago and it was quickly locked...i was in the northern b.c. region for aug 15 opening day of moose a couple of years ago and was lucky enough to get one on the 3rd day,but every other camp i saw was skunked.anyways it was day 5 or 6 and i was stopped by the co and when he saw my cut tag he said wow your one of the lucky ones ,no one is getting moose,to which i replied i know where are they?he then informed me that 5 of the local natives had set up a camp 2 weeks before opening day and shot 25 moose for ceremonial purposes cows ,calfs,bulls whatever...this straight from the cos mouth so those of you with the blinders on....wake up and smell the coffee

[Livewire322]

Gotta end at some point. And when there is no moose they will scream that it's the white mans fault and demand financial compensation.

[Ioneth]

Technically.....but you need some political will to enforce the law, of which there is none.

Hell a few years back, a friend who was the ranch manager at the Nicola Ranch, called the COs because the natives were cutting his fences to access the ranch OWNED private land and shooting moose out of season. They flat out told him there was nothing they would, or could do, including for the destruction of property and tresspass. Even a few beef were shot either by mistake or malice, and that was only met with a shrug of the shoulders.

We have hunted 3-19 a lot over the years and Elkdom you are completely wrong, there is (was) a very, very healthy moose population in that region. Of course not 7B healthy, but I would challenge you to find another MU in 3, 8, or Southern 5 that had a better moose population up to about 6 or so years ago. 5 reserves encircle the area, and each one is hitting it hard. A couple of years ago, the last time we put our moose draw in for the area (successful too) we saw as many gut piles, or the remainders, as we did moose...yes they clean them up fast, but when 6 or 8 new ones are being 'made' in a night, they do last a few days.

The only option to save the animals and OUR traditional hunting rights is to hold them accountable, along with predator control. If we don't, there is going to be very little in the way of moose for anyone to hunt....because the 'guardians of nature' couldn't give a shit about conservation.

If this story is true then the law enforcement failed. Those men were poaching and not hunting.

Also they are not restricted to the reservation but their traditional territory. Out side of their traditional territory they have to follow the regs. And private property is private property no matter where it is.

[xtremearchery]

[QUOTE=anglo-saxon;1154663]I thought FN could only hunt like that on the res, otherwise they are subject to the same hunting laws as everyone else in which case the scenario originally described here would be poaching, wouldn't it?[/Q

x2 thats what i thought

[MuleyMadness]

If this story is true then the law enforcement failed. Those men were poaching and not hunting.

Also they are not restricted to the reservation but their traditional territory. Out side of their traditional territory they have to follow the regs. And private property is private property no matter where it is.

I know they failed....because they are told by their superiors not to do anything about it. I can assure you it's 100% true. Not going to debate traditional territory vs reserve, because the fact is, they were a nomadic people (besides on the coast), and as a result, they camped all over the province for a month or two at a time. Traditional territory is basically a collection of those campsites. The res is the ONLY place they operate on their rules only, or at least where they are legally supposed to limit it to.

[bandit]

[QUOTE=anglo-saxon;1154663]I thought FN could only hunt like that on the res, otherwise they are subject to the same hunting laws as everyone else in which case the scenario originally described here would be poaching, wouldn't it?[/Q

x2 thats what i thought

Nope the legal cases have been quite clear about FN being allowed to hunt and gather resources in "traditional territories." What the legal cases have NOT managed to do is establish exactly where these traditional territories are, so herein lies the problem. To my knowledge FN did not keep accurate maps 200 years ago so the definition of a traditional territory becomes very subjective. The FN can effectively self determine where these traditional territories are within reason and noone can dispute them.

I very much doubt the authorities would try to take any FN to court suspected of "poaching" on or near the supposed borders of the "traditional territory." So in my view until there is more legal clarification demarking these traditional territories then the problem will go on. And noone will even attempt to open that can of worms until the treaties are settled (only 3 FN bands have settled a treaty in BC, so dont hold your breath).

[sawmill]

Its just not that simple. There seems to be more of a "hush" affect when it comes to some social issues. That said by all means take out a camera when this is going on and get as much media involved as you can. If we all did something, then something will happen. If we just sit here and watch, then nothing will happen.

Ive called in many of sockeye dumps on the Fraser. When I ran the river alot, I called in what was done to the pinks in the fall.

Up in Hazelton,where I lived for 15 years ,I would watch the FN chuck 150 dead pinks out of the net to catch the last couple of Sockeye running.The kept all the Steelhead and Coho too,even though they had been closed for years to any one else.I knew guys who would shoot moose and sell the map to white guys in the bar for $100.I worked with a native who made 100,000$ a year running the Linkline at the mill who showed up lat one day and his excuse was he had shot 3 cows on the way to work .This was in APRIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!He was so stoked because they each had 2 calves inside ,a real Gitskan delicasy.

Zero tolerance from this child.I hate that shit.

[Caribou_lou]

I agree with you sawmill. t would be interesting to know how many gillnets are set on the Skeena. I talked to a man in Smithers the other day who is employed by the waste removal service, and he said they have to make three times as many trips to morice town to empty the dumpsters because they get filled with fish in the spring. No excuse for that! Just drives me up the wall!

[curt]

If this story is true then the law enforcement failed. Those men were poaching and not hunting.

Also they are not restricted to the reservation but their traditional territory. Out side of their traditional territory they have to follow the regs. And private property is private property no matter where it is.
Well I'd have to say crappy deal but the law isnt the only one who failed if that ranch owner sat on his hands and did nothing then he failed himself and everyone else that has delt with the same BS if the law chose to do nothing I would notify every paper every new channel and I would put considerable pressure on the local politians the law and the provincial government that is completely 100% over the line NO ONE would come on my land uninvited and be that disrespectful without a fight maybe if the pressure got to hot for those assholes then the chief would put some pressure back on them if you do nothing then nothing will be done!?!?!

[Fishhound]

These politicians, biologists, and law enforcement CO or RCMP are all paid for with our tax dollars, and they must either perform their jobs in a manner that protects and enhances the wildlife for everyone, if they can't or in this case refuse to they need to be replaced. These people need to be informed that the public is tired of their lack of integrity and in many cases likely a disregard for their own professional code of ethics

I think HBC members need to get together and gather concrete, undisputable evidence of all of the above mentioned offences, they need to bring it to media attention all at the same time making it impossible for the politicians, RCMP, COs and anyone else involved not to respond.

In any case it is obvious we need to do something?

[Jelvis]

A few years back I was hunting behind the mill at 100 Mile. My buddy and I were talking to a CO on a gravel road in the bush. The CO told us that a status Indian could shoot a moose right in front of him and sell it and he could do nothing to stop it. twelve months out of the year, I said, you sure sound kinda angry about that. He said he was at the local reserve trying to talk to the Chief about moose hunting when four young native men came in the office and told him to leave the rez and don't come back.
He just got up and left.
Jel .. ( From) the horses mouth .. CO told to "Leave the rez and don't come back either." .. true story

[Whonnock Boy]

These politicians, biologists, and law enforcement CO or RCMP are all paid for with our tax dollars, and they must either perform their jobs in a manner that protects and enhances the wildlife for everyone, if they can't or in this case refuse to they need to be replaced. These people need to be informed that the public is tired of their lack of integrity and in many cases likely a disregard for their own professional code of ethics

In any case it is obvious we need to do something?

Don't think that they do not want to do something. The fact is, the laws are on the Aboriginals side. They want to be tried in court to challenge the laws, and we all know how that works out. What needs to happen is the laws, constitution, and Indian act need to be abolished, amended, whatever. Period. The only way to do that is tell those that govern us, to get it done. One day it will happen, or I can only hope.

[kelmore]

all these things people are seeing need to be recorded and sent to the media, the media can get the ball rolling.

[kelmore]

I also wanted to say that I think its great to finally have a conversation going that isnt just straight out native bashing.

[Vini]

My FN experience last year was bitter-sweet. Went up near Spences Bridge for 4 point season. We setup camp and proceeded to hunt, saw a few native driving around and no animals. That night around midnight a truck drove by our camp at a fairly high rate of speed and yelling like a typical native war cry you would hear on TV. Needless to say, the next morning we decide to break camp and go higher up on the mountain. As we reached our camp spot, we noticed someone dragging out a 4 point out of the field across from our camp. We went to to see them and they were natives. They told us that the deer, a legal 4 point, walked through our camp just 5 minutes prior. Lucky buggers.

They were quite nice and showed no ill will.

The next day we were driving up the road and there they were again, loading up a mature moose. Now at that time the regs only allowed for imature moose but we figured since they were FN, this was legal. Again they were very friendly and we joked with them about shotting our game. The jokes were taken as just that a joke and all was good.

Therefore, my experience with these natives were quitre good except for the few that blew through camp that one night.

I have never experienced native poaching but much like wonder bread poachers, I'm sure there are FN poachers. An my gut tells me that there are probably more FN poaching than most realize.

The only thing that I can suggest to to get concrete evidence (video would be best) and get it out to all policing authorities and media. I'm guessing that if there is hard evidence and the culpriots can be positively identified then the authorities will be more comfortable pressing forward.

[BCptown]

folks, it does not matter what color a group of people are. White, red, black, or purple - When given special privileges, there will always be those who take advantage of them, ruining it for everyone else.

[M.Dean]

If the resort owner watched 1 Native guy and 6 White guys shoot 7 moose, why is it that the 1 Native takes all the Shi*? Seems to me the White guys out numbered the Native 7 to 1! So, with the math problem solved in this case, I'd say there's more White poachers shooting moose in front of resort owners than there's Natives shooting moose in front of resort owners! So, to me it sounds like there's a real problem with White Poachers in that area, be nice to know where this Mooseless area is, just so we don't waste any time Moose hunting around there!

[steel_ram]

How does the resort owner know 1 in 7 is native? I sure as heck can't tell anymore by looking at them. I know very fair skinned people with blonde hair that carry status cards. So many questions?

[Wild one]

It really is not that uncommon to hear of white hunters taking a native with them so they can shoot what ever they want because they know all they have to do is say the native shot it and a CO will walk away because it is not worth wasting the courts time. I have heard the term native tag many times and have been offered if I want for a few $$ 1/2 the meat a native guy would gladly come along so all animals are open. For me this is no different then poaching

I hear this crap every year. With the extra rights FN get and the lack of enforcement for when they hunt outside there rights it leaves the door open for abuse by FN and those who use them for there rights.

[BULLNUTTS]

I dont think that anyone would object to anyones right to sustenance hunting-native or not-but what might work,if it could be put into effect,would be a numbered amount for each group or band of peoples sustanace hunting.A quota of animals thats needed and allowed to be harvested by the said groups.As well then such things as proper management and mismanagment-such as harvesting yarded moose populations in winter- could be addressed and those not understanding the longterm and often irreversible damage could be politly educated and perhaps brought into the know.
I know of other such ideas by people far more knowledgable on these matters that would work if brought into service-but there is again the issue of inforcement.Without the people or power to inforce-what good is any law or system??
I think we are all just here rolling it around and around trying to find the same answers-keep at it guys and god willing we will finnally find that answer!!! BULLNUTTS

[Jelvis]

One native friend of mine got tired of hearing the threats against him if he hunted out of season or took an animal not on gos.
He tried to explain his position on hunting for meat to eat and no one he talked to believed him about his hunting rights.
Over and over he heard the doubts and negative stories against his rights to hunt and he burned up inside getting really pee'd off. Even some band members dint know, and were scared and doubting.
People saying bull lonie we know if you got caught doing it you'd be nailed in court and your gun taken away for good.
So Fred decided he'd had enough explaining and phoned the game warden's office. Fred said I'm going moose hunting just outside of town for a meat moose. It was before regular gos or leh opened. He said if you want to come along you are invited. Not one wanted to go.
Fred said I'm going to make a point so off he went and did shoot a moose just out of Cranbrook where he lives.
Someone saw Fred gutting the moose and phoned the CO's office.
Fred said he was tired of seeing his band members getting fines and losing their meat or they would go to court.
The CO got a hold of Fred and told him he was being charged and to take the moose to a meat cutter, tell him how he wanted it cut and wrapped and to hold it till the court case was done.
Long story short. After interviewing Fred and getting him to write a report why he thought he could shoot the moose out of season, the court day was set.
Well who would of thunk it? Fred won in court and the government had to pay for cutting, wrapping and extra storage for the moose.
The supportive band members jumped up and crowded around Fred their new hero in town.
Now the band members know after this court case what the real law states, and have made Fred an example of a leader who stood up for his band and his personal pride. Now when any member get's a complaint of this type, they say oh no I ain't paying your fine and you can dang well charge me or talk to your boss. Fred is a champion now because he challenged the system that was taking the meat away and making them pay fines or go to court. Fred says go to court then and now they know the truth.
Jel ( Fred ) from Cranbrook took it upon himself to find out the reality .. this is one true story .. Fred's (His) Story

[Gumsehwah]

I have another friend that visits this site often i wont name him but I'm sure he will read this, he has a similar experience in behind Williston lake!? A group of young natives went throught their camp while they were out and I mean went throught it.... inside their tents opened their rubbermade bins found some booze stashed in the bottom of a few bins took it ALL, drank it came back later that night with more friends and guns and intimidated my friends to the point they left and slept in their truck a few miles down the rd. My buddies went back in the morning to salvage what was left. Reported it on the way out the the nearest detachment and were basically laughed at told outright by an RCMP member they would not even consider following up on the report as their RCMP SUV had bullet holes in it from the local boys already!! So I say WTF is the matter with this picture!?!?!?

That type of thing happened to me behind Dragon Lake in 7-15. A couple of hotheads decided that whites wen't allowed to be around and threatened personal and property harm if I did not leave the area. I went and let a couple of the elders know, and lets just say that they "took care of it." I spend my time on Nisga'a territory, and 99.9% of my students are Nisgaa or at least partially Nisgaa. Most of the Nisgaa elders make me feel that I belong, and have no problems with me fishing and hunting in the area (some even think its wrong that I spend all my time up here and can't belong to some "in residence" status or something). These people believe that the treatment I got at the hands of the "hoodlums" that were up at the lake was very "unNisgaa". However, there are those "Nisgaa supremisists" in the community who believe that the "Gumsehwah" and all thier "type" should be driven out of the valley. They are NOT the majority, and represent a very small percentage of the population (thankfully).

My point is that these poachers and hotheads are even MORE of a problem within their respective communities than they are to the "outside" world. Its like white people having to deal with the white supremest within our midst.

The stories I hear from the Nisga'a about the cow/calf moose kills, as well as the kills that are just left where they drop sickens one to the depth of the soul, as well as some of the stories about nets that have been left across creeks. We ALL need to work TOGETHER to stop the madness out there and protect hunting for all.

[Gumsehwah]

Happens all across Canada my friends. I have a cousin I grew up with in Nova Scotia and found out that he has been hunting Moose with the natives ( his so called friends) for the past few years. I called him on his bullshit and called it like it is.....straight out poaching. Don't talk to the guy anymore and have no desire to talk with him.

If I go hunting with my FN friends, the rifle and bow stay home. I'm just there for the company.

[Gumsehwah]

Oh, I forgot. . .

The last I read of the Constitution, it read that traditional hunting is subject to regulation when the animal stocks are in jeaprody.

[Jelvis]

If their is an animal that is considered endangered, no one is to kill it. That is common knowledge.
Or if a band tells it's members not to shoot certain animals because it would not benefit the bands plans, the members listen up. Some bands have their own Bio's and leaders in trapping, hunting and fishing departments that work as best they can with provincial MOE, and Federal jurisdictions in harmony, with proper updated conservation commitments and sustainability for all wild life and fish.

[redwards92]

I also wanted to say that I think its great to finally have a conversation going that isnt just straight out native bashing.
All I see is a bunch of speculation with no absolute proof to use as a base to target these INDIVIDUALS of the First Nations communities [not "the natives" altogether which is what I seem to see throughout this thread]. Everybody has the obvious answer of bringing in media attention and things like that but until you actually have a solid base, support and evidence to the story NOBODY will pursue it. This thread has 9 pages of useless/obvious information.

[steel_ram]

If their is an animal that is considered endangered, no one is to kill it. That is common knowledge.
Or if a band tells it's members not to shoot certain animals because it would not benefit the bands plans, the members listen up. Some bands have their own Bio's and leaders in trapping, hunting and fishing departments that work as best they can with provincial MOE, and Federal jurisdictions in harmony, with proper updated conservation commitments and sustainability for all wild life and fish.

Ideally that is the way it works, however there seems to be a few rebels within some bands that seem to defy what they are asked. The lack of the ability to control these few within the band makes me question the FN's ability to self govern, as they propose and is very frustrating I'm sure to everyone.

[Jelvis]

I don't know exactly in this situation what actually was happening or who was involved. Very general story and nothing in documented form.
Emotions and personal feelings always rise up with in each human. Ideals and the pragmatic reality are two parts involved.
Ideally everyone would be obeying the norms of the hunting worlds regulations. But in reality we know of incidents that make us shutter when we here of gross criminal activity that happened somewhere in our province.
We will never know, who, when, what and how it took place. We might know where, but that might be all.
The lack of the ability to control a small number of any people that abuse the system is always there. Until the earth is gone.
We can't find them sometimes. They come out when we go home. Or wait til after dark. It would be impossible to be perfect in this world, it just ain't going to happen for anyone. imho.
Police yourself properly first, then try to report anything that appears wrong in your eyes to RAPP with details.

[dogger]

Some of you choose to put your head in the sand and hope it goes away. Lets call a spade a spade. We all know this B.S goes on but nobody wants to say or do anything because it might offend the F.N. If they didnt do this B.S they wouldn't have to worry about being offended.

[MuleyMadness]

Ideally that is the way it works, however there seems to be a few rebels within some bands that seem to defy what they are asked. The lack of the ability to control these few within the band makes me question the FN's ability to self govern, as they propose and is very frustrating I'm sure to everyone.

While I agree with you that it needs to work that way, your statement that it brings into question their ability to self govern is way, way off base. EVERY race, every country, every community has people who won't listen to the laws and regulations. It's why generally, in every society, one of the first things built is a jail of some sort. Sad but true.

[Moose63]

Here's an easy fix, Completely deactivate FSR that are no longer in use. Put up gates on FSR where the moose population is suffering and you'll see the number start to climb again. Make it harder and harder to gain access with motorized vehicles and I think you'll find it will help.

Most people who shoot whatever the hell they want, do it from or near their truck. This might upset some actual legal hunters for cutting off access but god gave you two legs for a reason.


By far the best idea I've heard so far...

[JIL_24/7]

By far the best idea I've heard so far...
Completely agree. May not be the most popular, but it definitely is the most practical. It means more "traditional" hunting for everyone while singling out no one.

[burger]

Originally Posted by Matty_ola

Here's an easy fix, Completely deactivate FSR that are no longer in use. Put up gates on FSR where the moose population is suffering and you'll see the number start to climb again. Make it harder and harder to gain access with motorized vehicles and I think you'll find it will help.

Most people who shoot whatever the hell they want, do it from or near their truck. This might upset some actual legal hunters for cutting off access but god gave you two legs for a reason.



By far the best idea I've heard so far...

x3 all for it

[Fishhound]

Completely agree. May not be the most popular, but it definitely is the most practical. It means more "traditional" hunting for everyone while singling out no one.

What about physically impaired, there are way too many people on this site that think that if you can't get out and walk you should stay home

You call yourselves sportsman, hardly I say.

I hope you teach your kids better, but I doubt if you do

[Whonnock Boy]

What about physically impaired, there are way too many people on this site that think that if you can't get out and walk you should stay home

You call yourselves sportsman, hardly I say.

I hope you teach your kids better, but I doubt if you do

Relax man. That is not what this is about at all.

[curt]

If the resort owner watched 1 Native guy and 6 White guys shoot 7 moose, why is it that the 1 Native takes all the Shi*? Seems to me the White guys out numbered the Native 7 to 1! So, with the math problem solved in this case, I'd say there's more White poachers shooting moose in front of resort owners than there's Natives shooting moose in front of resort owners! So, to me it sounds like there's a real problem with White Poachers in that area, be nice to know where this Mooseless area is, just so we don't waste any time Moose hunting around there!
I dont disagree the are just as many douche bag white guy's out there as well, if you support the activity then it wont stop!!! just like the guys that complain about natives fishing but are 1st in line to buy a sockeye for 10 bucks and brag about how good of a deal they get !?!?

[Whonnock Boy]

I just wonder what the effects would be if there was a one season fits all in regards to winter kill, stress on the animals, etc etc etc......? I would imagine that if moose, elk, deer, et al had to only worry about humans for 20 to 60 days, the mortality rate could be much lower.

[Whonnock Boy]

just like the guys that complain about natives fishing but are 1st in line to buy a sockeye for 10 bucks and brag about how good of a deal they get !?!?

Oh God! You had to bring that up didn't you. My brother goes out and buys a bunch every year off a native. I have told him about the big picture, but he just doesn't get it. Then he hears, or sees some natives going into his favorite hunting spot before opening day, and he is the guy yelling the loudest. I just want to smash his teeth out, and kick him in the nuts. What a douche! rant over :wink:

[Fishhound]

Relax man. That is not what this is about at all.

Don't tell me to relax, you guys who want to limit access want to do so for your own good first, the wildlife second

[yukon john]

I dont disagree the are just as many douche bag white guy's out there as well, if you support the activity then it wont stop!!! just like the guys that complain about natives fishing but are 1st in line to buy a sockeye for 10 bucks and brag about how good of a deal they get !?!?
10 bucks! where at? I've been paying 12..... just cant trust a guy selling fish out of a trunk

[Whonnock Boy]

Don't tell me to relax, you guys who want to limit access want to do so for your own good first, the wildlife second

Have you even read what this thread is about? Matty-ola suggested shutting down roads so that those who hunt from the truck, in this instance he is referring to aboriginals, NOT physically impaired, so that the numbers of animals can increase. Yes, the physically impaired would feel the effects, yes, those that hike would see the benefits, but he was not directing his angst at you, or the physically impaired. You are getting riled up for nothing. Sheesh! RELAX MAN!

[Timber-hunt]

Years ago when my father lived in west bank ,this friend would come up and they would go quail ,pheasant hunting on native land ,with permission, There was only one road in or out , in the area they hunted, then they would park, walk ,and hunt for the birds with there dogs, This one day, as they were hunting they notice a truck with 2 young natives in it by were they parked, their truck .My father notice one of them got out and started running around there truck, they were only about 100 yards away and the road is winey to get to were my father and his friend were, The young natives didn't notice by father and his friend off to the side of the mountain above them ,they started running back to their truck ,all four tires are slashed ,my father friend kept running straight down the mountain to cut them off ,when he caught up to them, he put 2 bird shot through there windshield and started loading the shot gun again with deer slugs ,if my father didn’t stop him he would of kill them crazy Italians ,RCMP came ,and told both parties to eat the repairs of there trucks or I have to charge both parties ,that was the end of that ,

[les]

I too hunt with Curt. If he didn't care so much for what is really going on he would never have started this post. It's about the animals, our sport and our legacy to our children and theirs. My time hunting with my son,family and my close friends is what I live for each year. I want to be able to hunt with my grandson in the future eventually too. We met up with FN hunters last year and one is a member on HBC. Couldn't have asked to meet an nice couple of guys in the bush. FN should be able to have their allowed game, follow the rules is all I ask. I think overall government agencies are doing a fair job due to their cutbacks. They can't be everywhere. We away have see lots of game and have been very successful over the years. The sky is not following in quite yet. But it doesn't hurt to have an umbrella handy just in case.

[hunterdon]

There is no doubt a serious problem regarding wildlife abuse, and I don't believe there is a quick fix here in the mix. I do believe that a lot of the responsibility for the abuse should rest with the elders or leaders. For example a few years back, I was acquainted with 3 young native men here from the South Okanagan. Since all of us were hunters, naturally we had some good discussions on hunting.
During one of those discussions I learned that according to their band regs, they do not hunt large antlered animals. For example it is forbidden for them to shoot a mature buck as they feel the mature(strongest) animals should be left to do the bulk of the breeding. They are restricted to 2 point or less. The intention here was to manage the overall well being and sustainable wildlife population.
My point is this;
The leaders of native bands must first take responsibility and police their own. To simply let some rotten apples run shot gun crazy at anything on 4 legs can do no good and will eventually threaten the very way of life they so cherish. Of course this suggestion cuts both ways. We,(non native) need to also lead by example among our own, and cut out those rotten apples.
As I said, just one suggestion, and not a easy quick fix.

[Fishhound]

Whonnock-boy, I don't give a dam what you think, like you said this thread is about native over harvest of wildlife,

There is no need for these kinds of statements as they do nothing for a solution and only serve to insult and be offensive to some of the members, and the people making these sugestions just want to have more access of their own

[skibum]

I think I copied this from HBC some time ago, but on that "traditional" hunt idea, not so traditional (down south anyways):

In "The Mammals of British Columbia (1956) Ian McTaggart Cowan, head of the zoology dept of UBC and Charles J. Giguet curator of birds and mammals at the provincial museum in Victoria wrote:

"One of the most spectacular events involving large game mammals in British Columbia has been the southward spread of moose in the last forty years. Prior to 1920 there were virtually no moose south of the Hazelton-Prince George line. They have now moved to the International Boundary and the most dense populations are in this newly invaded territory."

[hunter1993ap]

Whonnock-boy, I don't give a dam what you think, like you said this thread is about native over harvest of wildlife,

There is no need for these kinds of statements as they do nothing for a solution and only serve to insult and be offensive to some of the members, and the people making these sugestions just want to have more access of their own

there are more than enough roads to travel, and there are many roads that could be closed to stop the amount of pressure on the animals. Actualy there is way too much accecibility and i have to agree with whonnock boy. can't you get permits to travel on gated roads if you are disabled?

[Matty_ola]

What about physically impaired, there are way too many people on this site that think that if you can't get out and walk you should stay home

You call yourselves sportsman, hardly I say.

I hope you teach your kids better, but I doubt if you do

Thats just a rediculous statement, Of course they're will be more than enough room to get your wheelchair through the gate so you may have the same access as others.

[Fishhound]

Thats just a rediculous statement, Of course they're will be more than enough room to get your wheelchair through the gate so you may have the same access as others.

I rest my case

Just so you know, I have a severe physical impairment such that most days walking more than 100 yds is out of the question, and dragging an animal carcass would likely kill me.

[Fishhound]

there are more than enough roads to travel, and there are many roads that could be closed to stop the amount of pressure on the animals. Actualy there is way too much accecibility and i have to agree with whonnock boy. can't you get permits to travel on gated roads if you are disabled?

Actually you guys don't have any business determining how many roads are available to drive on, further more I do not think the ministry hands out keys to gates

[Matty_ola]

I rest my case

Just so you know, I have a severe physical impairment such that most days walking more than 100 yds is out of the question, and dragging an animal carcass would likely kill me.

Im sorry to hear about your disability and in no way do I pretend to understand the hardship you go through every day just to get from one place to another but at the end of the day there is no way anyone can police every road and every hunter.

The only way to increase the chance of survival for the populations of moose would be to limit the access that people have to kill them. It just so happens that most of the poachers use the same means of killing animals as you do hunting them.

If we don't limit access you and your children won't have anything to hunt in the future anyway so which do you prefer?

Besides I'm not saying we cut off every road that isn't paved I'm simply sayin we gate off all areas that populations are suffering due to over or illegal harvesting. Which are likely the areas you're not going to see anything near the road anyway.

Something needs to be done, being as the FN population is growing at a staggering rate and the population under 25 years of age makes up 50% I can only imagine what's it's going to look like when all the elders who play by the rules are gone.

[hunter1993ap]

this was exactly what i was trying to say but by the sounds of it fishhound wants nothing to do with any roads closed. have you ever heard of a compromise? there are so many places to drive i dont know why you are so against a couple roads being closed where the animal population is suffering? i am sory to hear about your phisical imparement and am glad you still enjoy the outdoors.

[burger]

Whonnock-boy, I don't give a dam what you think, like you said this thread is about native over harvest of wildlife,

There is no need for these kinds of statements as they do nothing for a solution and only serve to insult and be offensive to some of the members, and the people making these sugestions just want to have more access of their own


Sorry there FH but your blowing, what is actually a great idea, way outta proportion. I see your issues and feel for you BUT if the remedy is good for the animal population but doesnt cater to all then sometime some people need to "take one for the team" so to speak. This is a topic about the potential over harvest by FN and there is lots of accounts of first hand experience but we cannot always make everybody happy. Look how its gone so far

[Fishhound]

This is not a question of closing a couple of roads because once the practice of closing roads starts it will escalate and the only people that will be left to complain will be people like me and then it will be too dam late.

The people who want the roads closed now certainly will not help reopen them if it is even posible to open them,

You are right I don't want any roads closed because this is a JOKE because the only thing that will happen is they will save them roads for hunting with their snowmobiles

[Moose63]

What about physically impaired, there are way too many people on this site that think that if you can't get out and walk you should stay home

You call yourselves sportsman, hardly I say.

I hope you teach your kids better, but I doubt if you do

For those that are physically impaired, you provide an exemption, maybe have an LEH where a gate is opened for those that can't walk...

[silvertipp]

There are several issues with gates ,but i guess the real question is "do you really think the people in question wont just destroy these gates"
obviosly they have no problem breaking the law so why not break a gate!!

[Whonnock Boy]

There are several issues with gates ,but i guess the real question is "do you really think the people in question wont just destroy these gates"
obviosly they have no problem breaking the law so why not break a gate!!


Yep, very good point!

[Iltasyuko]

There are 2 gates in Region 8 I know of in place to provide a no vehicle buffer zone around provincial park / G Bear habitat - the locks have been missing for at least four years. Gates don't do much if you don't have the will or money to monitor and maintain them.

[Fishhound]

There are several issues with gates ,but i guess the real question is "do you really think the people in question wont just destroy these gates"
obviosly they have no problem breaking the law so why not break a gate!!

If they didn't rip the gate out of the ground, the Chief of the local band would go to the local office of whoever had the keys to the gates and demanded them, siting the fact you can't remove access that already exists and then give them a bill for the meat that they didn't harvest because the gates blocked their access

[xcaribooer]

Aboriginals have been hunting since the start of time. Its is within their treaty rights to hunt outside of "whiteman" seasons, cant do anything about it so might as well accept it.

[Whonnock Boy]

Aboriginals have been hunting since the start of time. Its is within their treaty rights to hunt outside of "whiteman" seasons, cant do anything about it so might as well accept it.

I think that this is part of the problem. No disrespect to you, but far too many people believe that there is nothing that can be done. We as hunters, and fishermen are not the only ones who feel that it is time for a change in regards to Aboriginals in Canada. Outside of this site, I speak often with people about this. Not very often does the "we stole their land, give them a break" montra come up. Change is coming.

[steel_ram]

Aboriginals have been hunting since the start of time.

We all did, and then we evolved. Not very many people in Canada need to hunt for sustainance, especially those that embrace modern technology. Some can have their cake and eat it.

[pappy]

These kind of things happen when the young learn of what has happened to there families in the past. If another country moved in right now and did the same things to current residents that have happened in the past here in north america, how would you feel towards them? what kind of results would you expect from your grandchildren or great grandchildren in decades from now? I think its resentment towards "white" people for coming here and ruining what they already established. Its a very good reason to not respect anything that the gov't of canada or non-native hunters want. It would have been very different if the settlers could have showed up and lived peacefully with the locals. With that said I have a status card and I grew up hunting in the gos and applying for leh just like everyone who pays for tags. I don't support or participate in out of season hunting or shooting cows and calves. How many jews go to germany for vacation? or how many jews cheer for the german soccer team? Its in the past but not forgotten.

[silvertipp]

You might think what happened in Germany somehow compairs to what happened to natives in north america but i think your way of
there is a great number of animals taken that do not have anything to do with sustanaince,this is what needs to be adressed

[Whonnock Boy]

a great number of animals taken that do not have anything to do with sustanaince,this is what needs to be adressed

I believe that this is one of the problems. I would also like to see:

Same seasons for all.
Same rules for all.
What is harvested, IS used for ceremonial, and sustenance purposes relating to both hunting and fishing.

[pappy]

I just referenced germany as a similar injustice to a group of people, I know its not the same. I think what has happened in the past directly relates to the decisions made now by these individuals to not care about the leh, gos and bag limits . I have heard of natives who hate people like me who are 3/4 native and have a very european last name.

[40incher]

Licensed B.C. resident hunters are basically screwed.

The F.N.'s and the G.O.'s have the ear os Christy "Campbell" Clark et al.

Time to realize the provicial conservatives are the only ones wanting to tackle the issue.

[burger]

I believe that this is one of the problems. I would also like to see:

Same seasons for all.
Same rules for all.
What is harvested, IS used for ceremonial, and sustenance purposes relating to both hunting and fishing.

If all follow the same rules then like us they can do what they see fit with their harvest. The rest of the public should not dictate what they do as we can also do the same

[Whonnock Boy]

If all follow the same rules then like us they can do what they see fit with their harvest. The rest of the public should not dictate what they do as we can also do the same

I don't quite understand your comment. Are you saying that I can sell the game meat I harvest, and fish that I catch?

[The Dawg]

http://www.reactionface.info/sites/default/files/images/1310576301803.jpg

[The Dude]

I'm amazed this thread's still open.
Well done guys, keep it real.

[burger]

I don't quite understand your comment. Are you saying that I can sell the game meat I harvest, and fish that I catch?

No what i meant was if they are folowing the same rules that we do then your last sentence is redundant because if they are following our rules then they could do with the meat and hides the same things we are allowed to. Thats all.

[Phreddy]

Don't let me get started. What a piss off.

[Benthos]

The provincial conservatives, even if elected, can't remove aboriginal right to hunt and fish, much of which is covered in treaties and or the constitution act. The constitution trumps provincial law.

[DMAN009]

Because of the past we are going to let everyone's future go to Sh!t?

Well when there are no animals around and no fish around for anyone to eat and we are all eating poop steaks...I will come knocking on your door....

http://www.dailytech.com/Japanese+Make+Delicious+Nourishing+Steaks+From+Hum an+Feces/article21932.htm

So dissapointing....words cannot describe the stupidity of mankind sometimes.

[The Dude]

Soylent green, anyone?

[Livewire322]

Its a shame that so many like minded people cannot band together to push this issue. I know that HBC is only a small portion of the BC hunter population but I know people outside of our circle whom are also fed up with the current state of affairs. If this site is any indication the movement for equal rights would stand a fair chance!

[boxhitch]

Maybe do some reading on the Constitution . It acknowledges the treaties and rights exist, but spells out nothing

One of many examples
fnbc.info/30-years-constitution-act-1982
(http://fnbc.info/30-years-constitution-act-1982)

[Whonnock Boy]

The provincial conservatives, even if elected, can't remove aboriginal right to hunt and fish, much of which is covered in treaties and or the constitution act. The constitution trumps provincial law.

You are quite right. But, if John Cummins continues to open up the can of worms like he already has, it will get the ball rolling. It would be the first step.


Its a shame that so many like minded people cannot band together to push this issue. I know that HBC is only a small portion of the BC hunter population but I know people outside of our circle whom are also fed up with the current state of affairs. If this site is any indication the movement for equal rights would stand a fair chance!

I truly believe it is not just hunters, and fishermen that would like to see changes.

[Jelvis]

Cummins or just breathing hard? People that use the fishery on the mighty Fraser river have boats strung out across the mouth. Each have their fave spot for the commercial fishery. Anyone who has a boat and a valid license from DFO.
Thee Federalies.
These fisherman fish the sock in the eye, and also net other species like steelhead and some tuther salmon.
Then what escapes these boats across the mouth of the mighty Fraser face Hells Gate and many sharp rocks, seals and bears. Plus Mr. Sports Fisherman. The braves native fishery, the miles of rushing water, other fish biting at you.
Currents so strong Tarzan would drown.
Suck it up Princess.
Jelly ( Big Foot ) Fraser

[REMINGTON JIM]

Its a shame that so many like minded people cannot band together to push this issue. I know that HBC is only a small portion of the BC hunter population but I know people outside of our circle whom are also fed up with the current state of affairs. If this site is any indication the movement for equal rights would stand a fair chance!

Well pal - get started on it and i will help and i am sure there are others that will too ! If we don't quit talking about it and get going on it- it will be too late ! let us know what you need ! :-D

Cheers RJ :-D

[Benthos]

It is not just the constitution, but all of the case law that has followed. Sparrow vs the crown is a prime example

[Jelvis]

I can tell you this, the CO's have meetings with the hunters and fishermen at their regions Indian bands.
Some bands will invite all the staff of the local B.C. conservation ministry out to have a meeting and eat some nice dinner and coffee and talk after. I was there by the way.
The seven staff from the BC MOE, Federal DFO, and the BC Fish Bio.
So there have been very good communications and friendly hand shakes. Information sharing, plans, events, and a heck of a lot of respect for each other together in the region.
These people were number one and I talked to the top about a certain concern, you know what? This man is number one in my books. If "Number One" is at the top it goes down number one to the bottom.
People are meeting and greeting between the governments and the individual bands.
Jella ( Ring My ) Bella

[MuleyMadness]

It is not just the constitution, but all of the case law that has followed. Sparrow vs the crown is a prime example

Yep, and new case law can overturn it, because as you said, it's actually case law that spells out the rights...the constitution does NOT, and as such, case law can reverse, alter, or maintain those 'rights.'

[Jelvis]

Look up the Sparrow vs case ..
Willy Alphonse Jr. case about shooting a deer on another fellas ranch, see this it's mind boggling. An appeal.
Sugar Cane .. These court cases were and are the law of the supreme courts and back .. done .. by the law
Go only by the courts because that is where you will end up pissin your money away at a done deal you vs Constitution
It's like a street fight, you'll end up on the ground and pound, you will kiss the black top .. your wings will be broken .......... I'll R.I.P. out yer tung .. I took Gung Foo what wood scooby doo do?
Jelly ( The Street ) Commander .. Around the corner .. It's me against the world .. 2 Pock Doctor Spock Kid Rock

[ufishifish2]

The idea to close roads simply won't work at all and the result will be terrible.
The first people to get gate keys will be those with traditional hunting rights in the areas. If that doesn't happen they will either tear the gates down or find a way around them.
Not to mention the fact that people use FSR's all the time for a broad range of reasons from forestry to recreation to mining. Gates will only keep the likes of fine upstanding tax paying public out. Way to shoot yourself in the foot with that suggestion!!!

[The Hermit]

Okay so here is the big question... Why?

Allowing for and in light of whatever other factors are in play such as habitat destruction due to clear cutting massive pine beetle killed forests, road and rail kill, natural predators, resident and guided hunting, all of which are reasonably well quantified by the way, unlike the unreported FN harvest, we need to ask why?

Why, when conservation is THE highest priority when it comes to wildlife management and legally trumps even FN rights and in the face of OBVIOUS wildlife abuses, well beyond what any normally intelligent individual could argue otherwise, and perpetrated by a significant enough number of FN across the province as to significantly contribute to knocking moose populations back 50 - 60% in some regions, do our elected officials both Federal and Provincial turn a blind eye?

Why would any generation of FN consciously put populations at risk thereby flying in the face of all that is holy, literally Holy to FN culture? When wanton disregard for conservation is combined with instances of illegal blockades, threatening and harrassment of licensed hunters, lobbying the Gov to close black bear hunting I gotta ask why.

Is a systematic attack against non-FN rights and values? Is it to prove the point of their right and title? An effort to get non-FN out of their claimed lands to support their claims by imposing a right of use that is current? The strategy seems to have worked in the posts above where people have been scared off or been made so uncomfortable as to leave a legal hunt, and where the RCMP won't go in to deal with threats of violence and intimidation with firearms because they have had their cruisers shot?

I think a first step in correcting this mess is for the BCWF and all the parties represented at the table to push HARD for immediate regulation requiring all FN to report their harvest. We have the legal and moral right based on obvious conservations issue to make this demand and to make failure to do so punishable under current law. Once we know what their harvest is we can get back to science based management... without that and a financial commitment to carry out annual aerial surveys "we" are at best making wild-assed guesses on populations and the allowable annual harvest.

As for the rest of the FN issues, housing, addictions, education, economic development, self-government, politics... I will leave that for another discussion.

[huntcoop]

I'm amazed this thread's still open.
Well done guys, keep it real.

I'm staying out of it or else I'll get a time out, guaranteed.

[Jelvis]

Chiefs of some bands encourage the band members to hunt for meat to help some shut ins and elderly to have traditional venison (Swhick Lacka) fat off the buck deer. Too elderly to join the hunting party formed by the leading hunter/warrior who plans the hunt to some specific area for several diverse reasons and goals.
They will convoy up to the spot and make a camp. Each hunter and group member doing their part to be positive in getting game for traditional sustenance. The moose, the deer, the birds.
Maybe in a traditional hunting area that has all the above and a high elk population as well.
One band up the Nor River in B.C. has been asked by Alberta moe to cull the herd of elk in Jasper because the park has reached extreme capacity for the white rump, (Wapiti).
So the groups, the users, are communicating with zeal and good faith together to sustainable wild life plans working shoulder to broad shoulder, Hands joined arms around each others shoulders intertwined in this game rich country of ours.
Jella: In the Army for Sustainable Wildlife Hunting Practices .. The Circle of Trust .. is a must

[silvertipp]

well the hell do you get all this crap,this is the real world
if they want those elk theres not a dam thing anyone will do about it ,they will just go and take them
id like to see some proof to your sustanable hunting plan

[Mulehahn]

Putting up gates does nothing. If you want to de-activate a logging road you dig a 8' deep, 6' wide trench across it with boulders blocking any large vehicles. But again, all this does is hinder all law abiding hunters who spend millions of dollars in this province. The only way to deal with this issue is in the courts. In the case of R v. Sparrow, the courst ruled that the musqueam band had proved that they had fished for centuries before colonial times and that this right to fish existed before any provincial legislation and had never been extinguished and that his rights were guaranteed protected by section 35 of the Constitution Act. The key part of this is that it was proven very thouroughly that they had been fishing before the whiteman showed up. The same case can not be made for moose hunting in most of BC prior to the deveoplment of massive logging brought on by europeans. The spread of moose in region 7A is contentious, but the there is no doubt that prior to the early to mid 1900's moose were not present below PG in regions 3,5, and 8. Countless biologists will attest to this. Any FN group who argues this would have to bow down to science or risk jeopardizing the Delgamuukw case and have oral histories count for nothing. I would love to see this issue go to court. If a well organized group of lawyers were to be arranged I would certainly donate to the cause. As for the moose decline in region 6, honestly I have no doubt FN play a role, but I believe it has much more to do with habitat loss, and predation. People talk about seeing 50 bears a day close to Bell 2. Your telling me that many cubs are surviving and the big boars are getting fat on grass. Alot of calves are disappearing because of this. Throw in the wolves that use our logging roads like highways to areas, combined with "social issues" and you have a recipe for disaster.

[Ambush]

About the time that leh and spike/fork moose seasons were introduced to reg. 7, I attended a two day "moose seminar" presented by the local biologists. They told us that 40% of the area's moose calves were killed by black bears. The bears simply followed a pregnant cow around, grazing as they did, and when it came time for the calve to drop, they harrassed the cow, so she essentially had to give birth while she walked and dodged the bear. The bios told us that anybody that cared about moose populations should be filling all their bear tags as early in the spring as possible, or in the fall.

At that time we were allowed five tags and there was no requiremnet to take meat or hide. I can testify that if you saw a cow moose with a brand new calf or a pregnant cow cross the road , all you had to do was get out your rifle and wait a few minutes, 'cause you're gonna kill a bear. We also did not have to count "nuisance" camp bears on our tags. That only required a phone in from the camp manager. I killed a lot of bears and I make no apologies for it. The moose population thrived!

Then the rules changed to require you to take either the hide or the meat. Then that changed up to you had take the meat and people just quit shooting bears.

Want to help the moose? Go buy two bear tags and fill them.

[jg]

a herd of 7 moose in the Kamloops area ??? that must be the entire Thompson/Nicola moose population in 1 spot ??

7 moose just stand there and suck up lead from 7 guys shooting at them ???

then 10 gut piles in only a "FEW km's" in winter, ???

Fact !,,,,,coyotes and ravens clean up gut piles in winter almost as quick as the gut pile hits the ground !


SOUNDS to me like the "owner of the Resort" you stayed at is a remarkable and biased Bull$hitter ! so is his friend ! IF a friend really exists in this fairytale ?

how big are the Rainbow Trout in his lake ??? ......80 or 90 pounds ???? :lol:

I saw 15 moose in one day up there two years ago and shot the 15th one with a LEH. No bs....

[Jelvis]

People do not shoot moose 12 months of the year. People are taught the meat is best between late summer through early winter.
Meat is so low in nutritional value in late winter and spring and wouldn't be worth eating.
It would make you sick at this time after the winter season.
Also when the females are pregnant or have babies you do not shoot.
From mid August and late summer up to the end of fall the meat is top quality.
Jel .. People I know hunt at these optimum times ..

[Whonnock Boy]

People do not shoot moose 12 months of the year. People are taught the meat is best between late summer through early winter.
Meat is so low in nutritional value in late winter and spring and wouldn't be worth eating.
It would make you sick at this time after the winter season.
Also when the females are pregnant or have babies you do not shoot.
From mid August and late summer up to the end of fall the meat is top quality.
Jel .. People I know hunt at these optimum times ..

Top leading scientists have also done studies coming to the conclusion that nutritional values spike just after sunset, and peak in the dead of night. When the sun rises the nutritional value decreases to daytime levels. :rolleyes:

[Whistler]

Aboriginals have been hunting since the start of time. Its is within their treaty rights to hunt outside of "whiteman" seasons, cant do anything about it so might as well accept it.

There are only a couple treaties in BC, so how do they have treaty rights? Nobody knows how many animals they shot but I think the whitemans trains kill too many! :-)

[Paulyman]

The natives should have two options, if their going to hunt traditionaly then do it with a traditional bow and arrow. If thier going to hunt with a modern rifle or bow then white man rules should apply. It's f-ucking ridiculous this has not been the rules from square one.

[snowhunter]

What, which and who's "Square One ?"

This country is so wealthy in everything the mother nature can provide, to a point that we can afford to have this kind of ridicules discussions. Most other people in the world would become dizzy if the found out how rich our country really is in big game and natural resources.

Regardless of "this and that Native hunter killing wild animals for food", as they have done for millenniums, without endangering the species, as see plenty of hunting opportunities for everybody, in fact I have never seen so many deer and elk as I have the last 40 years.

All the clear-cut logging, ranching and farming has created incredible hunting opportunities that never existed before the immigrants arrived.

Their is some truth to the joke about the Native word and name for a poor hunter: "Vegetarian"

When you learn to see beyond the screen of your computer, smell, hear and sense the animal around you, you will understand how game rich our lands really is.

I dare you to spent more time in the real nature, than you do in front of your PC, whining over being skunked again :)

[Jelvis]

No body hunts at night that I know. Not needed. No sport in that. I wood not hunt at night.
I like hiking while hunting mule deer (t'see)but with moose I would like to get one close to an access road.
I got one moose in 2001 and haven't hunted moose since.
This season should be different, I want a young moose to put in the freezer.
Jel .. Moose is the best meat going if got in Sept/Oct. The meat is awesome .. smokies too .. Moose (Tahnia)

[Jelvis]

It's up to each individual to follow the rule of the laws. Each person needs to take responsibility and try to do things in the right way. This needs to be taught to people when they are young.
You and I know this.
In other words obey the regulations and laws and you won't be fined or charged. If you are charged for something then you can have your day in court to prove your innocents.
Jel .. It's time to recognize that following the rules helps make hunting more enjoyable and helps conservation.

[hunterdon]

" About the time that leh and spike/fork moose seasons were introduced to reg. 7, I attended a two day "moose seminar" presented by the local biologists. They told us that 40% of the area's moose calves were killed by black bears. The bears simply followed a pregnant cow around, grazing as they did, and when it came time for the calve to drop, they harrassed the cow, so she essentially had to give birth while she walked and dodged the bear."

"Then the rules changed to require you to take either the hide or the meat. Then that changed up to you had take the meat and people just quit shooting bears."

Couldn't agree more. I remember well the bear regs changes. Especially the requirement to retrieve meat. From then on, a LOT of bear hunters stopped hunting black bear. Up until that time, many bear hunters targeted big bear. After that, they simply stop hunting big bears. A real bad decision. After all it's the big guys that are the major threat to moose, not the smaller bears. I wish they would change the regs back to allowing for a hunter's discretion as to retrieving the meat or not.

[Bobfl]

I have never seen or heard of this in kamloops. I am sure it would be in the papers if so.

One more round please.

[Phreddy]

HAVE NOT HEARD IT PUT BETTER!

An Aboriginal son asks his dad, "Dad, what's democracy?"
"Well, son, that's when whites work and we get all the benefits
From it!"
"But dad, aren't the white people pissed off about it?"
"Sure they are, but that's called 'racism'"

[remington666]

C'mon, the natives are the stewards of the land. They care about future wildlife and all the individuals of the "nation" agree and follow the agreements made by their elders. They wouldn't dream of taking advantage of the system or the governments non-willingness to go up against them. It's the wolves fault . . . remember?

haha nice very well put

[redwards92]

The natives should have two options, if their going to hunt traditionaly then do it with a traditional bow and arrow. If thier going to hunt with a modern rifle or bow then white man rules should apply. It's f-ucking ridiculous this has not been the rules from square one.

Yeah with all the traditions that were passed down to them... OH WAIT ! The RESIDENTIAL SCHOOLS took all these First Nation people and FORBID them to speak their language and participate in their cultural activities. They were punished severely for speaking their own language and used as EXPERIMENTS in these schools while being RAPED of CULTURE and TRADITION. You guys would be sick to your stomach if you knew what went on in these schools. These people are lucky to even have what culture and language they have left after that era and they are losing it fast. For anyone to base their political views solely on the rights the First Nations have including hunting as well as other things would be completely ridiculous. It sucks that some natives are taking advantage of the rights they have today but I can guarantee you, that had the current elders in those communities not been taken into these schools and raped of culture+tradition and experimented on, that these elders would have also passed on the traditions that culture and respect for wildlife and the environment IS top priority within their communities 100% which is a lot less then I would be able to say for the whiteman up to this day. It is not the First Nations fault that only a handful of families were able to avoid these inevitably disastrous schools. There are a handful of people from every band that abuses the rights they own but that does not mean people should attack ALL First Nations. These people need to be targeted within their communities and the only way to do that is to find people within those bands that will agree with you and point you in the right direction[to people who could help form hunting workshops for youth etc as well as people who can talk to those individuals who are abusing the rights] which might I remind you is the elders who are dying off or have turned to alcohol and or drugs due to their abusive lives. For those of you who think you are having a great discussion on how to stop this minority of people from abusing their rights, I would like to inform you that a lot of posts in this thread are completely baseless and usless and are mostly wishing to destroy ALL first nations rights and not at all about stopping these individuals from abusing their rights. The Treaties and laws they use to protect their rights today are there to protect them from people who want to destroy their rights so they can have better chances at drawing an LEH tag. :rolleyes:
Can't believe this thread is still up.

[burger]

Yeah with all the traditions that were passed down to them... OH WAIT ! The RESIDENTIAL SCHOOLS took all these First Nation people and FORBID them to speak their language and participate in their cultural activities. They were punished severely for speaking their own language and used as EXPERIMENTS in these schools while being RAPED of CULTURE and TRADITION. You guys would be sick to your stomach if you knew what went on in these schools. These people are lucky to even have what culture and language they have left after that era and they are losing it fast. For anyone to base their political views solely on the rights the First Nations have including hunting as well as other things would be completely ridiculous. It sucks that some natives are taking advantage of the rights they have today but I can guarantee you, that had the current elders in those communities not been taken into these schools and raped of culture+tradition and experimented on, that these elders would have also passed on the traditions that culture and respect for wildlife and the environment IS top priority within their communities 100% which is a lot less then I would be able to say for the whiteman up to this day. It is not the First Nations fault that only a handful of families were able to avoid these inevitably disastrous schools. There are a handful of people from every band that abuses the rights they own but that does not mean people should attack ALL First Nations. These people need to be targeted within their communities and the only way to do that is to find people within those bands that will agree with you and point you in the right direction[to people who could help form hunting workshops for youth etc as well as people who can talk to those individuals who are abusing the rights] which might I remind you is the elders who are dying off or have turned to alcohol and or drugs due to their abusive lives. For those of you who think you are having a great discussion on how to stop this minority of people from abusing their rights, I would like to inform you that a lot of posts in this thread are completely baseless and usless and are mostly wishing to destroy ALL first nations rights and not at all about stopping these individuals from abusing their rights. The Treaties and laws they use to protect their rights today are there to protect them from people who want to destroy their rights so they can have better chances at drawing an LEH tag. :rolleyes:
Can't believe this thread is still up.


While there are some points to your post. You actually think the FN are going to point out the offenders within their community for us to police them?? To open a hunting workshop??? We are at a point now where the residents of BC will be slowly relieved of our abilities to use the land as we all should be able to. I ask that you give us your exit strategy on how you would deal with the combined utilization of our resources so that everybody can benefit?? If a culture can go unchecked while one is policed then how do you plan on protecting the wildlife?? If you believe what you have written then what do you propose to do when after all the treaties are signed and you have lost all your rights on land and use of said land,where are you going to enjoy the outdoors, where are you going to pursue your rights?? I have said it before you cannot have two seperate govt control one land.

This topic was/is a discussion of hunters that dont understand why we couldn't/shouldn't all follow the same conservation routes. If the FN of western canada want to have their traditions then fill your boots. The overharvest and greed of a few is not a tradition and their society is evolving just like ours and seems to not include the respect of the elders word like it once used to. Some can see that some cannot,the ones that can are trying to voice their concerns the ones that don't see it as a smack against "rights and traditions". Looking at this with rose colored glasses does not make the actual problems go away.

[The Dude]

Can't believe you can form a thought, yet not form a paragraph.

[Phreddy]

I'm so fed up with the residential school, poor oppressed people, arguements that I feel like barfing. My ancestors were highland Scots who were methodically hunted down, tortured, raped, murdered, and generally not given a very good shake. That's in the past. I have no desire, nor inclination to sit on my ass and complain about the English and demand rights that no one else has. The past is the past and that's where it belongs. It's what we do to make the present fair and equal that matters.
If you don't like the living arrangements, get off the reservations and take some responsibility for your life by becoming self-sufficient instead of buying into all the crap that seems to be floating around. My 2 grand daughters are status first nations, but they are going to school, and plan to work their way through university on their own. Get real. It isn't our differences or our pasts that matter, it's our ability to work together and make for a better comon future that counts. "Argue for your limitations and they are yours.".....Richard S. Bach, (Illusions.

[redwards92]

You actually think the FN are going to point out the offenders within their community for us to police them?? To open a hunting workshop???[ If you really want to solve these problems then identifying the people who are abusing their rights is obviously going to be an essential part of this plan is it not??? Doesn't matter which way you do it I just suggested one thing which is more then a lot of people in this thread have done. I'm sure there are plenty other ways to identify these individuals. ]

We are at a point now where the residents of BC will be slowly relieved of our abilities to use the land as we all should be able to.I ask that you give us your exit strategy on how you would deal with the combined utilization of our resources so that everybody can benefit?? [ Not sure why you are bringing this up? It is not up to you or I to take care of this. If you are implying equal opportunity in regards to hunting then please just stop! first nations will always have their rights to hunt for sustenance+ceremonial activities and that will be something regulated hunters will have to accept. Your goal is to put some type of conservation effort into these bands which is obviously a hard thing to do and also a "touchy" subject as we all know. ]

If a culture can go unchecked while one is policed then how do you plan on protecting the wildlife?? [ Well I believe if the Fish&Wildlife officers would make more of an effort to interact with these communities with a more planned and detailed approach in regards to conservation that they[the bands] would happily abide. I think this would open up opportunities to single out the individuals abusing their rights. ]

If you believe what you have written then what do you propose to do when after all the treaties are signed and you have lost all your rights on land and use of said land,where are you going to enjoy the outdoors, where are you going to pursue your rights?? [ Like I already said, the hunting rights are being worked into the treaties which might I remind you will grant First Nations a lot of land in which they will be allowed to exercise their same rights they own today ]

I have said it before you cannot have two seperate govt control one land. [ I would assume that once treaties are signed that both sides will be able to WORK together to govern these lands that will be signed over in the treaty. It's not just a here you go First Nations take this land and we are done and are never to speak again have fun with your land! type of deal if that's what you think. ]

This topic was/is a discussion of hunters that dont understand why we couldn't/shouldn't all follow the same conservation routes. [ Oh really? All I see is a bunch of people basing their political views solely on hopes of JC destroying the First Nations land claims and other rights that they own while telling BASELESS stories such as " Oh I heard this" and " I heard that ". I don't see much people intelligently discussing strategies that will start the movement of deploying conservation strategies within these bands which in turn will make it easier to target individuals who do not follow these conservation efforts put forth by both band and Fish&wildlife. ]

All in all I just came to say you're doing it wrong people.

Find yourselves some respectful natives who have the same views and goals as you do and I'm sure they will be able to gather more First Nations to join you in your efforts of conservation within these communities. This will definitely help avoid the whole " you people are racist " scenario which is huge step in the correct direction.

Anyways good luck with your efforts people. I can see that some of you have the right idea but I can't say that for every person in this thread.

[redwards92]

I'm so fed up with the residential school, poor oppressed people, arguements that I feel like barfing. My ancestors were highland Scots who were methodically hunted down, tortured, raped, murdered, and generally not given a very good shake. That's in the past. I have no desire, nor inclination to sit on my ass and complain about the English and demand rights that no one else has. The past is the past and that's where it belongs. It's what we do to make the present fair and equal that matters.
If you don't like the living arrangements, get off the reservations and take some responsibility for your life by becoming self-sufficient instead of buying into all the crap that seems to be floating around. My 2 grand daughters are status first nations, but they are going to school, and plan to work their way through university on their own. Get real. It isn't our differences or our pasts that matter, it's our ability to work together and make for a better comon future that counts. "Argue for your limitations and they are yours.".....Richard S. Bach, (Illusions.

It wasn't our ancestors who attended these schools smarty pants it was my Grandpas, Grandmas, uncles and aunties. I'm only 19 years old. The last residential school was closed in 1996. This stuff is barely the past buddy. I have graduated high school and intend on getting some type of degree in the near future so I have no idea why you are talking about education [I just finished a 1 year course and as of last month I am an apprentice under the ITA as an RCFT]. Also please just don't even bother if you're going to come in here and argue with me about residential schools because you will just make yourself look silly.

I do agree that we need to work together towards having more established and concrete guidelines within our governance regarding rights that only the First Nations own but turning a blind eye to the residential schools DEFINITELY is not a step in the right direction in that matter. We own these rights to use our lands for ceremonial and sustenance purposes and that is one thing that will probably never be given up. The treaties are meant to repair the relationship between the First Nations and the governments which I think will make it easier for them to co-operate with each other in the future.

and to make sure everyone knows I do hold a status card and I do pay taxes unless I'm working on the reserve/ being payed by the band [their are not many jobs within our communities nor do we have much room for development on our tiny lands and even if we did the indian affairs procedures make the process terribly difficult and takes a LONG time to even be approved to start developing lands] Also have to pay for dental work, optometrists etc. . .[albeit this just recently happened not really sure why but I ain't complaining]

[Jelvis]

Every peoples in our societies have 3% of them that are the ones who don't respect anything, and do most of the criminal activity and couldn't care less about the other 97 %.
Only a small percentage of people drive drunk, so do we dis all drinkers of alcohol?
Only a small percentage of people commit crimes with a rifle, so do we get rid of all rifles?
Only a small percentage of people poach, so does that mean all hunters can't be allowed to hunt?
Jel. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. Calm down, relax take a deep slow breath through the nostrils
slowly exhale and repeat.

[Deeboe]

One extra large popcorn, please! :D
X2 lol.....

[steel_ram]

It wasn't our ancestors who attended these schools smarty pants it was my Grandpas, Grandmas, uncles and aunties. I'm only 19 years old. The last residential school was closed in 1996.


Which one was that? I was at the understanding most were closed by the early 70's. Regardless, it was a terrible situation and those atrocities are a nasty bruise on the history of Canada. It's time to move on and is certainly no justification for the BS that goes on in the woods today by a small percentage of mostly younger members of the FN community.

[redwards92]

Which one was that? I was at the understanding most were closed by the early 70's. Regardless, it was a terrible situation and those atrocities are a nasty bruise on the history of Canada. It's time to move on and is certainly no justification for the BS that goes on in the woods today by a small percentage of mostly younger members of the FN community.
Keyword MOST. In 1996 the Duck Lake Indian residential school in Saskatchewan officially shut down.

By the way if you didn't notice these following two things then I ask you to pay more attention while reading;
1. I only brought up residential schools because someone mentioned traditional ways of the First Nations which were stripped from the First Nations in these residential schools. In no way am I making excuses for the terrible abuse of the First Nations rights by some people in those communities.
2. I only hope to help point some people, who seem to think they are making progress here, in the right direction in regards to stopping these abusive and ignorant "hunters" . I think my idea of contacting respectful first nations people who would be willing to join forces and try to help assert a more conservative effort amongst the first nation communities is the best bet.

[burger]

All in all I just came to say you're doing it wrong people.

Find yourselves some respectful natives who have the same views and goals as you do and I'm sure they will be able to gather more First Nations to join you in your efforts of conservation within these communities. This will definitely help avoid the whole " you people are racist " scenario which is huge step in the correct direction.

Anyways good luck with your efforts people. I can see that some of you have the right idea but I can't say that for every person in this thread.


You seem very passionate about the issue at hand and you seem angered by the few that paint a bad picture for all. Why would you not then take the initiative within your community and within the First Nation people and start the rally yourself.
You have stated you are FN which would be a great stepping stone for getting your foot in the door in all these other communities. What is stopping you and your young friends from stepping up? Police yourselves...The FN communities keep wanting their soverignty but do very little in policing your worst offenders. Some non FN people in Canada see this lack of self policing and are tired of the few as they are having a substancial impact we feel on the Conservation of the wildlife in question.

We have people that are not FN doing the same thing but there is some legal recourse to stop them whereas within the FN community it is a free for all if they choose. The reality is that is me not being "racist" as you put it but "realist" instead. Just because it comes from non FN does not instantly make the people saying it racist.

[Jelvis]

Native Indian Bands vary in size. Some like around Spuzzum have small numbers of members, while Kamloops has quite a few more.
Most bands have about half their members living on reserve and about half off reserve approximately.
Seventeen bands in the Shuswap Nation, such as Canoe Creek, Soda Creek, Kamloops, Shuswap, Sugar Cane, Canim Lake, Simpcw, Chase, Bonaparte and so on.
Off reserve natives could be in a bigger town away from their reserve for employment or education.
This does not stop the off reserve Indians from hunting. They hunt nearer to where they are attending school or live off the rez.
Jelly ( Big Hands ) of Stone

[snowriver]

I cannot see why we cannot have FN people go to the MOE and obtain a FREE tag for moose, elk, or deer. They would give their status number and contact information. When they harvest an animal they would cut the tag and report it to MOE. They could then determine the sex, age, and area the animal was taken. They would then be issued another tag for that species. Hunting without the free tag would have penalties As would hunting with a tag that had the wrong status number. In this way MOE would have a better idea of how many animals were being taken from an area and how many are taken for sustiinance by one individual. I believe FN have the right to hunt in their territorial areas all year long. I would just like the MOE to be better informed as to the numbers being taken. This would definitely help in determining LEH draws in certain areas.

[Jelvis]

When an animal is brought in to be processed at a meat market by a status Indian they need to supply the meat cutter/sausage maker with the details. Including status number, MU shot in, species, gender, and how many points.
Jel .. Must give number and information to the meat processor so the CO can read it if needs be ..

[Benthos]

I cannot see why we cannot have FN people go to the MOE and obtain a FREE tag for moose, elk, or deer. They would give their status number and contact information. When they harvest an animal they would cut the tag and report it to MOE. They could then determine the sex, age, and area the animal was taken. They would then be issued another tag for that species. Hunting without the free tag would have penalties As would hunting with a tag that had the wrong status number. In this way MOE would have a better idea of how many animals were being taken from an area and how many are taken for sustiinance by one individual. I believe FN have the right to hunt in their territorial areas all year long. I would just like the MOE to be better informed as to the numbers being taken. This would definitely help in determining LEH draws in certain areas.



Great idea

[burger]

I cannot see why we cannot have FN people go to the MOE and obtain a FREE tag for moose, elk, or deer. They would give their status number and contact information. When they harvest an animal they would cut the tag and report it to MOE. They could then determine the sex, age, and area the animal was taken. They would then be issued another tag for that species. Hunting without the free tag would have penalties As would hunting with a tag that had the wrong status number. In this way MOE would have a better idea of how many animals were being taken from an area and how many are taken for sustiinance by one individual. I believe FN have the right to hunt in their territorial areas all year long. I would just like the MOE to be better informed as to the numbers being taken. This would definitely help in determining LEH draws in certain areas.

That is a good idea, but for the most part the FN of our province do not feel they need to tell the Canadian govt anything as they are not the government they recognize.

[Jelvis]

This is where most people go off course as above three posts.
Status Indians are under Federal responsibility not the BC government.
Under this address, INAC (Indian and Northern Affairs Canada) Ottawa Ontario, Canada K1A OH4 <----.......
Write these people and give your suggestions, their the ones in charge.
french, Affaires indiennes et du Nord Canada explains: This person, Is an Indian within the meaning of the Indian Act, chapter 27, Statutes of Canada (1985)
Certificate of Indian Status
Jel.

[burger]

This is where most people go off course as above three posts.
Status Indians are under Federal responsibility not the BC government.
Under this address, INAC (Indian and Northern Affairs Canada) Ottawa Ontario, Canada K1A OH4 <----.......
Write these people and give your suggestions, their the ones in charge.
french .. Affaires indiennes et du Nord Canada ..

Pretty sure I said Canadian govt the jelly belly. But hey whos reading...

[burger]

Pretty sure I said Canadian govt the jelly belly. But hey whos reading...

Come to think of it but isn't the MOE federal as well?

I think post 181 is more off course and really does not explain anything???

[Jelvis]

The old MOE which has now changed their handle is Provincial.
D.F.O. is Federal. (Dept of Fisheries and Oceans)
RCMP are Federal
Vancouver Police .. City and/or municipal.
CO's are provincial
Postal workers are federal
Corrections- Two years less a day, provincial jail jurisdiction.
Over two years ..Federal Pen. ..

[burger]

This is where most people go off course as above three posts.
Status Indians are under Federal responsibility not the BC government.
Under this address, INAC (Indian and Northern Affairs Canada) Ottawa Ontario, Canada K1A OH4 <----.......
Write these people and give your suggestions, their the ones in charge.
french, Affaires indiennes et du Nord Canada explains: This person, Is an Indian within the meaning of the Indian Act, chapter 27, Statutes of Canada (1985)
Certificate of Indian Status
Jel.

No matter how you spin it there is no way the FN of this province would agree to an idea like snowriver suggests as any part of the canadian govt is not who governs them. They want to self govern and police. I guess i'm blind to how well that is working.

[Jelvis]

Wrong: very few want the Indian Act changed, that's where the rights are coming from.
Only some rich bands want it, the smaller ones and the pooorest want the (status) quo ( no pun intended lol)
Some chiefs told the MOE that if they allow leh because animals are available, then the Indians will hunt.
There are lots of diverse attitudes and ideas within the communities among all who desire a voice to be heard.
Yours, mine, theirs, his and hers.
Jel .. It's a game that we all are caught up in, you, me, and them. It's big game and we all want some ..

[burger]

Wrong: very few want the Indian Act changed, that's where the rights are coming from.
Only some rich bands want it, the smaller ones and the pooorest want the (status) quo ( no pun intended lol)
Some chiefs told the MOE that if they allow leh because animals are available, then the Indians will hunt.
There are lots of diverse attitudes and ideas within the communities among all who desire a voice to be heard.
Yours, mine, theirs, his and hers.
Jel .. It's a game that we all are caught up in, you, me, and them. It's big game and we all want some ..

So about these chiefs that you speak of your telling me that if there was no LEH they would stop hunting?? Then I am all for shutting it down for the sake of conservation. Do you really feel that would happen? Really??

[Jelvis]

When the Chief was talking with the fella about game numbers and bag limits and such, the person explained that they were using LEH, in some places depending on the population numbers.
The Chief was saying, if you think there are good numbers you have GOS right? Ya ha dats good. And if limited numbers you then use Limited entry hunting?
The fellas says yah dats right big feller you catchin on, wee wee good.
So the Chief says, wow you got a plan Stan. But I would like to say, in your regs it says conservation first, then native needs, then what? The fella swallowed hard and said well we only give out limited numbers of tags.
So if you think that GOS can't be used because of low pops, then why you get them ah? We should get them.
That's basically how it went, but it dint come to any concrete conclusions.
It was a mental pissing contest I'm guessing, that ended up with a friendly hand shake and a few beers over a burger.

[burger]

When the Chief was talking with the fella about game numbers and bag limits and such, the person explained that they were using LEH, in some places depending on the population numbers.
The Chief was saying, if you think there are good numbers you have GOS right? Ya ha dats good. And if limited numbers you then use Limited entry hunting?
The fellas says yah dats right big feller you catchin on, wee wee good.
So the Chief says, wow you got a plan Stan. But I would like to say, in your regs it says conservation first, then native needs, then what? The fella swallowed hard and said well we only give out limited numbers of tags.
So if you think that GOS can't be used because of low pops, then why you get them ah? We should get them.
That's basically how it went, but it dint come to any concrete conclusions.
It was a mental pissing contest I'm guessing, that ended up with a friendly hand shake and a few beers over a burger.


So your last post was only a troll. If you read it what you say here is not what you said last. Cmon jel dont give these snippets of what you really mean Eh.

I say we give them control of it all. Shut it all down to non natives. Scrap all the ministries that we used for the management cut our taxes and let the FN run the country. That would be best as the premise of equality is definately a no go

I for one only wait in distain for the day we all lose our rights to give another more rights. Its a @%#ed up world we live in where to be PC we need to instead of making everyone equal do the same thing to some to benefit the others that were complaining about the exact same thing done to them not that long ago.

[Jelvis]

The world goes on, and hunting will go on for anyone who wants to can hunt. All people.
With the amount of LEH available and the GOS in this province with good bag limits and long seasons, no one should complain.
Bear, deer, moose, elk, caribou, goat, sheep, predators, birds and more. We should be happy.
The hunting opportunities we have in BC is better than anywhere else.
Good management and conservation with top notch enforcement = B.C. Hunting opportunities for all hunters.
Jel .. Be happy don't bring people down ..

[burger]

The world goes on, and hunting will go on for anyone who wants to can hunt. All people.
With the amount of LEH available and the GOS in this province with good bag limits and long seasons, no one should complain.
Bear, deer, moose, elk, caribou, goat, sheep, predators, birds and more. We should be happy.
The hunting opportunities we have in BC is better than anywhere else.
Good management and conservation with top notch enforcement = B.C. Hunting opportunities for all hunters.
Jel

"Good management and conservation with top notch enforcement = B.C. Hunting opportunities for all hunters"

Problem is we do not have this at all Jelly and you know it.

[Whonnock Boy]

I for one only wait in distain for the day we all lose our rights to give another more rights.

Too late...... We are living it today. I wait for the day that we all have equal rights, and are considered as equals.

[redwards92]

You seem very passionate about the issue at hand and you seem angered by the few that paint a bad picture for all. Why would you not then take the initiative within your community and within the First Nation people and start the rally yourself.
You have stated you are FN which would be a great stepping stone for getting your foot in the door in all these other communities. What is stopping you and your young friends from stepping up? Police yourselves...The FN communities keep wanting their soverignty but do very little in policing your worst offenders. Some non FN people in Canada see this lack of self policing and are tired of the few as they are having a substancial impact we feel on the Conservation of the wildlife in question.

We have people that are not FN doing the same thing but there is some legal recourse to stop them whereas within the FN community it is a free for all if they choose. The reality is that is me not being "racist" as you put it but "realist" instead. Just because it comes from non FN does not instantly make the people saying it racist.

Where the **** did I say anything about anybody being racist? Good one man! Great post!
I've suggested some ideas that could possibly lead the right people in the right direction in regards to stopping FN poachers. Good luck with your efforts. Also if you didn't notice I'm laughing uncontrollably at your telling me that I called you a racist about it! LOL Read my posts bro I said nothing like that. I feel i've done enough by putting my 2 cents in this laughable thread so good luck with your efforts people you sure are making real progress here :?

PEACE this thread is ridiculous

[Jelvis]

Believe it or not we have it all in Kamloops B.C. because of great communication and working together.
Wildlife and fish enhancement, under the umbrella of excellent management and co-operation with all user groups
Conservation with sustainability along with goals for the future.
Top notch enforcement to protect the environment.
If you feel you have not got this in your area talk to your local wildlife branch about your concerns.
Jelly Rippa

[The Hermit]

The world goes on, and hunting will go on for anyone who wants to can hunt. All people.
With the amount of LEH available and the GOS in this province with good bag limits and long seasons, no one should complain.
Bear, deer, moose, elk, caribou, goat, sheep, predators, birds and more. We should be happy.
The hunting opportunities we have in BC is better than anywhere else.
Good management and conservation with top notch enforcement = B.C. Hunting opportunities for all hunters.
Jel .. Be happy don't bring people down ..

Jelvis... You are forgetting the reason this thread was started... OUR MOOSE POPULATIONS ARE IN THE TANK FRANK!! If you go back and read my earlier post you will see that until ALL hunters report their harvest we do not really have good management... we simply do not have the data to manage populations... we are GUESSING, and when we guess we make mistakes that lead to real on the ground problems that will require significant reductions in opportunity. Otto My Motto is... In God We Trust, ALL Others Bring Data!!

[Jelvis]

All hunters reporting moose harvest. How is that? Some body buys a moose tag. How would you know they filled it?
Answer please? I'm talking valid moose tags that are sold. How many of them are filled?
One very simple question, can you tell us?
Questionaires are not always sent back Jack.
Well? Let's hear yah. You said no guessing.
Go!

[burger]

Where the **** did I say anything about anybody being racist? Good one man! Great post!
I've suggested some ideas that could possibly lead the right people in the right direction in regards to stopping FN poachers. Good luck with your efforts. Also if you didn't notice I'm laughing uncontrollably at your telling me that I called you a racist about it! LOL Read my posts bro I said nothing like that. I feel i've done enough by putting my 2 cents in this laughable thread so good luck with your efforts people you sure are making real progress here :?

PEACE this thread is ridiculous

Sorry was not the intent of my post to say you called me racist.Worded it wrong. What I meant by it was that when people say things it does not always mean it has a racist undertone but rather a realist tone. Sometimes the truth hurts. I agree having both side work together is great but on the same note could you not agree that having yourself as a FN person take charge of your own people and maybe police the FN poacher as you called them yourselves. Why do we have to go down the road of causing more animosity between the two user groups with trying to control. I would behoove your and your FN community to take care of the problem yourself rather than look to others for help. Most help does come from within right??

[burger]

All hunters reporting moose harvest. How is that? Some body buys a moose tag. How would you know they filled it?
Answer please? I'm talking valid moose tags that are sold. How many of them are filled?
One very simple question, can you tell us?
Questionaires are not always sent back Jack.
Well? Let's hear yah. You said no guessing.
Go!

All hunters should report there Jell. If it was law for Canadians it would happen...How confident are you that it would happen on both sides of the coin?

Top notch enforcement maybe but that is really only for one user group. there is no enforcement for some. Same back at cha Jell tell us where that is happening with the top notch enforcement being done in regards to ALL user groups??.

If you actually read hermits post, i mean really read it your last post is ridiculous. He agrees with you and you then lash back.

[The Dude]

Natives would never go for that idea, even if a Tag was dirt cheap or free, for the simple reason that if they reported every cow, calf, and bull killed, the general public would be horrified first, then up in arms after the shock wore off.
That dog won't hunt.
Add in the numbers of animals that are shot and wounded by all stakeholders, and never reported and the numbers would be truly horrific.

[redwards92]

Sorry was not the intent of my post to say you called me racist.Worded it wrong. What I meant by it was that when people say things it does not always mean it has a racist undertone but rather a realist tone. Sometimes the truth hurts. I agree having both side work together is great but on the same note could you not agree that having yourself as a FN person take charge of your own people and maybe police the FN poacher as you called them yourselves. Why do we have to go down the road of causing more animosity between the two user groups with trying to control. I would behoove your and your FN community to take care of the problem yourself rather than look to others for help. Most help does come from within right??
I shake my head at the relatives and FN people who automatically see everything as racist towards natives so I know what you are trying to say BUT

If you want to talk " realist " then why not just discuss how even if I tried to police my own community[which I couldn't do without the right support even if I tried] that there is still tons of other communities in which I would have no control.
I am not here to start the movement; you people are[the people in this thread]. I was only here to throw a few friendly suggestions out there as well as help anyone who might have been confused about some things regarding First Nations.

Realist would mean that we obviously can't do squat until the government and First Nations agree on treaties which we can only hope will include a conservative method to keep the first nation hunting rights yet enables both sides [FN and regular law/Game officers] to punish the people who abuse the rights[Selling meat, over harvesting for no apparent reason etc...]

sorry to bump this thread but i'm officially out of it now as everybody else appears to be as well lol

[Jelvis]

When you pull the weeds out of the vegetable garden or the tares from the wheat make sure you don't hurt the wheat and vegetables cuz they look a lot alike.

[NaStY]

When you pull the weeds out of the vegetable garden or the tares from the wheat make sure you don't hurt the wheat and vegetables cuz they look a lot alike.


Did they change your meds again?

[snowhunter]

Sometimes in the future, if my hunting success decline, I shall, as so many other lousy hunters, start whining about Native historical and cultural right to harvest wildlife. Who knows, that might put meat on the table :)

[islandboy]

Video -> Youtube -> link to media site -> watch the politicians dance.

[Fishhound]

All hunters reporting moose harvest. How is that? Some body buys a moose tag. How would you know they filled it?
Answer please? I'm talking valid moose tags that are sold. How many of them are filled?
One very simple question, can you tell us?
Questionaires are not always sent back Jack.
Well? Let's hear yah. You said no guessing.
Go!

Make it manditory to turn in your old licence with tags inside in order buy your new licence

No need for questionaires anymore and a lot more data

[The Dude]

Sometimes in the future, if my hunting success decline, I shall, as so many other lousy hunters, start whining about Native historical and cultural right to harvest wildlife. Who knows, that might put meat on the table :)

I just have no idea what your point is.........
Is this the "Random Thoughts" thread now?
Or "Lowered Expectations"?

[KodiakHntr]

Make it manditory to turn in your old licence with tags inside in order buy your new licence

No need for questionaires anymore and a lot more data

And how would you maintain proof of ownership then on skins or antlers?

Pretty sure that isn't the easy answer.

[Fishhound]

And how would you maintain proof of ownership then on skins or antlers?

Pretty sure that isn't the easy answer.

Create a two part licence, so you can keep your licence but must submit the copy

[KodiakHntr]

Pretty sure I would vote against anything like that whatsoever. Anything that increases gov't beaucracy is foolhardy.

[Jelvis]

There is no sure way of making people do things to show what they got for the valid tag they hold on LEH moose any bull or any cow/calf. Or spike/fork triple palm and all.
The amount of cost alone for paper work would be costly and time consuming to say the least.
Some one get's lucky on a LEH moose in BC how would you know how many were filled, how many killled and how many lost and fatally wounded?
Closing off access to sensitive area might help in some region but might not be needed in another.
Some people don't return questionaires.
Helicopter counts are expensive so what can any one do for the bottom line which is population numbers?
Jel .. Manage your self within the regs and Acts and report any complaints to RAPP ..observe record, report.

[snowhunter]

What sort of price tag for you, the jolly tax payer, for policing a such new laws, like for more CO's, RCMP, Judges, Courts and Jails ?

How many billions are you willing to spent on laws changing the ancient hunting culture of Canada's Natives ?

Do you think such a new laws would work ? Any benefits to the Canadian society from such a new law ?

[Whonnock Boy]

Sometimes in the future, if my hunting success decline, I shall, as so many other lousy hunters, start whining about Native historical and cultural right to harvest wildlife. Who knows, that might put meat on the table :)


Any benefits to the Canadian society from such a new law ?

I sometimes wonder if there is any point responding to persons such as you. I really do not understand how some can be so thick. This is not about taking away aboriginal hunting rights. This is about all of us being on a level playing field. Equal, on par, the same. After all, we are all human, and we all have an ancient hunting culture. Until such time, there will be perpetual animosity, hatred, and racism towards the favored ones.

[Jelvis]

I can feel your pain posters, I can see the anxiety, because we got the same dang problems like everyone else does.
We are more similar than different. We have our own personal beliefs others might not know.
Go slow and be slow to anger, be calm like a big dog.
When a big dog runs down the street, all the little doggies yap and yoodling along the street at the big dog as it saunters along, he don't even look or pay attention he just keeps his pace to finish the race.
Jel .. (Dog) eat dog .. Once bitten twice shy .. Move over lil dog ... the Big Dogs Movin INN .... Big Dog Inn ....

[snowhunter]

I do not understand what this has to do with hunting, discussing in negative racial terms of the "Native Problem", looking for a "Final Solution ?", in these otherwise fine pages. These racial and political postings have nothing to do with hunting at all, but allowed by the moderators. Why ?

[NaStY]

For starters its an argument that has been going on for decades.

How long do WE have to pay before WE are all treated equal?

Chicken / egg egg / chicken who cares anymore.............................

[pg83]

I do not understand what this has to do with hunting, discussing in negative racial terms of the "Native Problem", looking for a "Final Solution ?", in these otherwise fine pages. These racial and political postings have nothing to do with hunting at all, but allowed by the moderators. Why ?

This has everything to do with hunting. There is most certainly an issue with regards to Native hunting in this province and everyone is entitled to their own opinion on it. Last I checked, internet forums were a place to share discussion and opinion. Whenever someone does cross the line, the moderators are here to clean up the mess. It is NOT racist/political for me to have a differing opinion to you in regards to this matter. It's simply our opinions.

[Tikka270]

23 pages of solutions to native hunting? Did anyone really read the original post? It was 6 "white guys" and one Indian! Ignorance at its finest!

[redwards92]

23 pages of solutions to native hunting? Did anyone really read the original post? It was 6 "white guys" and one Indian! Ignorance at its finest!

hahaha this guy wins

sorry everybody.

[Jelvis]

Six white men and a native is what your saying, and the native is the one that's wrong? Or the other six white guys?
It don't matter because we don't know the real details as to who, and what was actually going on.
So it's basically hypothetical and not forensic investigations on a specific court case.
Jel .. Who knows what's really taking place? .. It's hard to understand .. The world is a stage and we but actors ..

[The Dude]

23 pages of solutions to native hunting? Did anyone really read the original post? It was 6 "white guys" and one Indian! Ignorance at its finest!

Really??!!
And why were the white guys with the native?

[burger]

hahaha this guy wins

sorry everybody.

Weren't you done??

[redwards92]

Weren't you done??

why do you care?

[Fishhound]

23 pages of solutions to native hunting? Did anyone really read the original post? It was 6 "white guys" and one Indian! Ignorance at its finest!

I doubt if anyone can positively identify any particular race from a distance

The point of the 23 pages of posts is the concern of first nations peoples abusing their hunting rights, and the lack of will of politicians and paid officials to do anything about it, and the need for better more affective predator control

Many posts are put out there in an effort to brain storm, and maybe some good workable helpful ideas may come of it.

One thing is for sure people getting together to discuss this type of concern is always the starting point

[Fourpoint]

It happened all around Nevertouch and in Christian Valley too. Anything that moved was shot. And that is no exaggeration as I lived there.

[snowhunter]

You want me to cross out Nevertouch and Christian Valley on my next hunting trip ? Nice try :)

[lip_ripper00]

It happened all around Nevertouch and in Christian Valley too. Anything that moved was shot. And that is no exaggeration as I lived there.


geez was it that bad?

[Fourpoint]

Yes. CO's said there wasn't anything they could do, but they were concerned with the people they had with them (not being native).

[snowhunter]

How do you know if they were not Natives ? Many Status Natives often looks like White people as well. Also, it is not illegal for Natives or White people to have people of other races and ethnic group as friends.

Could you please specify and classify what racial background these "not being native" people, who you and the CO were concerned about, and please provide the name of the CO as well ?

I did not know that CO's are concerned about peoples race, when out on the job. This racial profiling from this CO, needs to be addressed at highest levels.

I have meet many CO's and often had conversations with them, and my personal and my hunting partners experiences with the CO's has always been good and professional. This is new to me, that CO"s will resort to racial profiling on the job.

[lip_ripper00]

Classic response!!! Somehow I don't think your going to get an answer, demand, demand, demand!..... Dewey is that you? LOL!!

[pg83]

Yes. CO's said there wasn't anything they could do, but they were concerned with the people they had with them (not being native).


How do you know if they were not Natives ? Many Status Natives often looks like White people as well. Also, it is not illegal for Natives or White people to have people of other races and ethnic group as friends.

Could you please specify and classify what racial background these "not being native" people, who you and the CO were concerned about, and please provide the name of the CO as well ?

I did not know that CO's are concerned about peoples race, when out on the job. This racial profiling from this CO, needs to be addressed at highest levels.

I have meet many CO's and often had conversations with them, and my personal and my hunting partners experiences with the CO's has always been good and professional. This is new to me, that CO"s will resort to racial profiling on the job.


How does "being concerned" = "racial profiling"?
1+1=3 as well right?

[burger]

I doubt if anyone can positively identify any particular race from a distance

The point of the 23 pages of posts is the concern of first nations peoples abusing their hunting rights, and the lack of will of politicians and paid officials to do anything about it, and the need for better more affective predator control

Many posts are put out there in an effort to brain storm, and maybe some good workable helpful ideas may come of it.

One thing is for sure people getting together to discuss this type of concern is always the starting point

Exactly!!!

[burger]

I shake my head at the relatives and FN people who automatically see everything as racist towards natives so I know what you are trying to say BUT

If you want to talk " realist " then why not just discuss how even if I tried to police my own community[which I couldn't do without the right support even if I tried] that there is still tons of other communities in which I would have no control.
I am not here to start the movement; you people are[the people in this thread]. I was only here to throw a few friendly suggestions out there as well as help anyone who might have been confused about some things regarding First Nations.

Realist would mean that we obviously can't do squat until the government and First Nations agree on treaties which we can only hope will include a conservative method to keep the first nation hunting rights yet enables both sides [FN and regular law/Game officers] to punish the people who abuse the rights[Selling meat, over harvesting for no apparent reason etc...]

sorry to bump this thread but i'm officially out of it now as everybody else appears to be as well lol


Why would you spearheading a no over harvest group not be something you would try to do?? Wouldnt/couldnt it be a jumping point for other communities to follow. You told me a few post ago that I should try to get this going...wouldnt it be technically harder for a whitey rather than a blood brother???

Are you not one of the people in this thread??

A realist would also see that if your communities were more self policing in regards to over harvesting animals then that would quell some of the animosity towards the two user groups.

Like I said before the best help always come from within rather than from a handout

[snowhunter]

Christian Valley and Rock Creek area, "Non-Native" harvest of deer is about 2000 a year, plus a large numbers of elk as well.

The ranchers in that area welcomes any reduction of the elk in particular, which are causing damage to crop and hay, which the elk urinate on, and thus make it completely useless and impossible for feeding cattle.

Provincial "Non-Native" harvest of deer has in the past been as high as 50.000 deer a year.

Hunters of British Columbia are, because of post like these, already looking extremely bad, and thus helping the "Anti's" gaining ground against hunting and guns, because we allow this kind of garbage to be printed, in our otherwise fine pages for British Columbia hunters.

[burger]

Christian Valley and Rock Creek area, "Non-Native" harvest of deer is about 2000 a year, plus a large numbers of elk as well.

The ranchers in that area welcomes any reduction of the elk in particular, which are causing damage to crop and hay, which the elk urinate on, and thus make it completely useless and impossible for feeding cattle.

Provincial "Non-Native" harvest of deer has in the past been as high as 50.000 deer a year.

Hunters of British Columbia are, because of post like these, already looking extremely bad, and thus helping the "Anti's" gaining ground against hunting and guns, because we allow this kind of garbage to be printed, in our otherwise fine pages for British Columbia hunters.

Were those numbers part of the total allowed by our govt allocation for non first nation? Was that part or the whole of a govt decided sustainable number??

I look at it this way there will continue to be speculating as to how many the first nation hunters may be taking. If the first nations of our province REALLLY want to work together, I mean REALLY want to team up with the other user groups to alleviate this speculating then they should have no problem with some form of checks and balance. I'm not saying that they dont get their rights but if they are truly stewards of the land then this air of secrecy does nothing to help manage the species at potential risk.

If ya go nothing to hide then you got nothing to hide!!!

[redwards92]

Why would you spearheading a no over harvest group not be something you would try to do?? Wouldnt/couldnt it be a jumping point for other communities to follow. You told me a few post ago that I should try to get this going...wouldnt it be technically harder for a whitey rather than a blood brother???

Are you not one of the people in this thread??

A realist would also see that if your communities were more self policing in regards to over harvesting animals then that would quell some of the animosity towards the two user groups.

Like I said before the best help always come from within rather than from a handout

Realists would realize that I had already stated that I was not here to start the rally. I offered some advice and suggestions and that's it, end of story!

Animosity towards the two user groups?
I'm assuming you mean animosity between first nation hunters and non first nation hunters? Like the kind you assumed I had when you said to me, "or as you put it 'racist' " ?
I think you're tackling the wrong issue here, burger.

[burger]

Realists would realize that I had already stated that I was not here to start the rally. I offered some advice and suggestions and that's it, end of story!

Animosity towards the two user groups?
I'm assuming you mean animosity between first nation hunters and non first nation hunters? Like the kind you assumed I had when you said to me, "or as you put it 'racist' " ?
I think you're tackling the wrong issue here, burger.

So your part of the problem and not the solution then.Great way to look at it."Here is how I think you should fix it but nope I'm not getting involved"??? Your young seem to be motivated and you yourself have said you dont like the over harvesting. Get off the soapbox and get involved with your community!! Stop looking to others to fix a problem that is within YOUR community. Within my non first nation community we have penalties for overharvest/poaching to try and combat the offenders...Why shouldnt you???

I think the issue really at hand here is some people would like to see some transparency within all of the user groups. What issue do you think I should tackle??

[redwards92]

So your part of the problem and not the solution then.Great way to look at it."Here is how I think you should fix it but nope I'm not getting involved"??? Your young seem to be motivated and you yourself have said you dont like the over harvesting. Get off the soapbox and get involved with your community!! Stop looking to others to fix a problem that is within YOUR community. Within my non first nation community we have penalties for overharvest/poaching to try and combat the offenders...Why shouldnt you???

I think the issue really at hand here is some people would like to see some transparency within all of the user groups. What issue do you think I should tackle??

I'm part of the problem? I've offered just as much to this discussion and issue as anybody else in this thread has so get out of here with that BS.

"here is how I think you should fix it but nope i'm not getting involved" ??
You're quick to assume, burger. I am not looking for or telling anybody to fix this nor am I going to go ahead and waste my time trying to convince the idiots who are stupid enough to abuse their rights in the first place to stop doing it.

"Why shouldn't you? " I didn't say anything about not having punishment for overharvesting/poaching so I don't know what you're trying to say? I don't do either so I shouldn't have to worry about it nor would I complain if some type of punishment was being made to people who abuse their rights.

What I meant by you are tackling the wrong issue is that you seem to be concerned about the whole "racist"/animosity thing a little to much my friend.

[Jelvis]

Trying to figure out who, and how many people, shot and killed a deer or moose on a big reserve would be like you trying to figure it out in a small town.
You going to go door to door asking who shot a deer or moose?
They would phone the cops on yah. What then watch when a truck comes into town and see if they got something?
That's loo dah criss. All people make decisions every day, good ones or not so good and in between, but not making a decision is a decision.
Jel .. Decide, do the right thing and carry on as you were .. Head up, shoulders back, now hit the road!

[burger]

I'm part of the problem? I've offered just as much to this discussion and issue as anybody else in this thread has so get out of here with that BS.

"here is how I think you should fix it but nope i'm not getting involved" ??
You're quick to assume, burger. I am not looking for or telling anybody to fix this nor am I going to go ahead and waste my time trying to convince the idiots who are stupid enough to abuse their rights in the first place to stop doing it.

"Why shouldn't you? " I didn't say anything about not having punishment for overharvesting/poaching so I don't know what you're trying to say? I don't do either so I shouldn't have to worry about it nor would I complain if some type of punishment was being made to people who abuse their rights.

What I meant by you are tackling the wrong issue is that you seem to be concerned about the whole "racist"/animosity thing a little to much my friend.

I think you should go back and reread what I have written.

I'm not assuming anything but rather questioning someone who has admitted they dislike the abuse of their rights within their community but are willing to do nothing about it as and I quote "I don't do either so I shouldn't have to worry about it"or "I am not looking for or telling anybody to fix this" as well as in post #169 you wrote:

" These people need to be targeted within their communities and the only way to do that is to find people within those bands that will agree with you and point you in the right direction."

So yes if you are not wiling or wanting to change these issues then you are part of the problem. I personally am not trying to remove your traditions nor am I trying to quench your rights I am thought trying to make you realize that we non first nations are handcuffed to be able to control the over harvest within your community. We have punishments within the rest of the communities in Canada and would hope as your wrote back in the same post #169 that the enviroment is 100% a top priority then prove it by taking a stand aginst the offenders. The ability is yours and your younger generations to make a change to the overharvest that is going on now. regardless of anything else.

[Jelvis]

Status Indians I know, follow the B.C. Hunting and Trapping rules in BC like any other hunter.
They still try earnestly to follow the safety first guide lines presented for all hunters to read.
Also follow gun rules like no loaded guns in vehicle etc.
Read the regs to see the whole picture of leh and gos dates and bag limits and open species.
Work in harmony as much as humanly possible with all local users and with the Ministries of Lands and resources
Jel .. Work with highly trained Biologists taking samples from animals and fish stocks to protect sustainability

[burger]

Status Indians I know, follow the B.C. Hunting and Trapping rules in BC like any other hunter.
They still try earnestly to follow the safety first guide lines presented for all hunters to read.
Also follow gun rules like no loaded guns in vehicle etc.
Read the regs to see the whole picture of leh and gos dates and bag limits and open species.
Work in harmony as much as humanly possible with all local users and with the Ministries of Lands and resources
Jel .. Work with highly trained Biologists taking samples from animals and fish stocks to protect sustainability

So do the ones I know Jelly but the ones that are not doing that have no accountability and I personally think that is BS and realistically the only people that will have any effect on controlling that would be the bands themselves. They want autonomy so take care of it. Be the stewards you so highly tout you are.

[Jelvis]

I honestly know that any Indian Band I've been involved with teach the youngsters both boys and girls who want to join the hunting party for hunting big game around the area.
Gun safety, gun handling, shooting. How to hunt certain animals like mule deer and moose or elk.
Taught about respect for the animals that give their life so you can eat and prosper.
Talk about conservation and how and when animals are born and grow through all four seasons.
Then go out to the mountain cabins to join the other hunters and get a first animal to feed mommy and dad.
Jel .. The best to all, this 2012/13 hunting and trapping season .. From Kamloops

[redwards92]

Wow buddy
Yeah I did say I shouldn't have to worry about it but that was in regards to punishment for abusing the rights so that is irrelevant of the point you try to make. Also I did say I am not looking for or telling anybody to do it but I am here to put forward possible ideas and solutions just like everyone else has so that really has no meaning in that argument either bud.

I also did say they need to be targeted and that was because it seemed as if some people were just blaming first nations altogether at first and I just wanted to try help steer the discussion in the right direction and put my 2 cents in[as everybody else has].

I feel I am not a part of the problem and neither are you. For you to make the argument that I'm part of the problem because I ain't the guy who is going to be the savior in this issue is ridiculous and I won't even bother responding to that. Yea I mentioned destroying rights and all that, which was a little bit of an exaggeration if you didn't notice, in regards to some people deciding john cummins would be a good guy to vote for because he thinks restricting first nations to their small lands is a great idea.

Also stop acting like I don't realize that it would be hard for "whities" ,as you put it, to fix this problem [because I do. . ]. But you also have to realize that I would have just as much success as any of you would. Just because i'm brown everyone will agree with me?? is that your logic?

I don't plan on living on a reservation all my life or for very long for that matter and I have better things to do with my time then try to convince a bunch of idiots, who are hard to reason with if you didn't know, to stop abusing their rights because it would be exactly as I put it, A WASTE OF TIME.

I'm sorry I can't help as much as you'd like me too but I don't feel like I am part of the problem nor will you be able to convince me that I am.

[Singleshotneeded]

I've seen indians driving around in trucks, with two "gunners" standing up in the front of the box, and coming around a
corner two Septembers ago I saw them blasting away with semi autos at a group of does. They took down 3 or 4 of them
before they finished shooting. It doesn't take too much of this behaviour to whittle down animal populations...they are the
main reason that ungulate populations are down. This incident occurred south of Kamloops, well outside the closest reserve.
Outside of the reserves, indians that are hunting should be following the same regs and laws that every other Canadian is bound
by, and if they break the law they should be fined, jailed, and have their property taken and be banned from hunting in future.
Just like what would happen to anyone else in our country. Anything else is racism, plain and simple, and it's disgusting.

[Whonnock Boy]

This comment pertains to the original OP's comment about "1 native with 6 white guys". One solution might be to have a lawful game season that everyone has to abide to. Then when anyone, regardless of race, is seen poaching, they then could be RAPPed. This would certainly cut down on witnesses wondering who the culprits may be.

[Jelvis]

I must be spoiled cuz most of the status Indians I know have jobs in the top fisheries positions and leaders of fish and wildlife management in the surrounding regions. Lots are university graduates with degrees.
Some of my friends are just regular people trying to make a living, real nice people.
Jel .. Run for the hills .. Iron Maiden

[redwards92]

I've seen indians driving around in trucks, with two "gunners" standing up in the front of the box, and coming around a
corner two Septembers ago I saw them blasting away with semi autos at a group of does. They took down 3 or 4 of them
before they finished shooting. It doesn't take too much of this behaviour to whittle down animal populations...they are the
main reason that ungulate populations are down. This incident occurred south of Kamloops, well outside the closest reserve.
Outside of the reserves, indians that are hunting should be following the same regs and laws that every other Canadian is bound
by, and if they break the law they should be fined, jailed, and have their property taken and be banned from hunting in future.
Just like what would happen to anyone else in our country. Anything else is racism, plain and simple, and it's disgusting.

Restricted to a tiny little reserve? that doesn't even have any game and if it did it wouldn't matter because shooting would be dangerous in an area with houses of native people crowding the reserve and houses of non native people surrounding the reserve itself.

You are entitled to your opinion but I respectfully disagree. I don't believe I should be restricted to a land that is not even legal or safe to hunt.

[The Dude]

Why should I be restricted to a tiny little reserve that doesn't even have any game and if it did it wouldn't matter because shooting would be dangerous in an area with houses of native people crowding the reserve and houses of non native people surrounding the reserve itself.

You are entitled to your opinion but I respectfully disagree. I shouldn't be restricted to a land that is not even legal or safe to hunt.

No-one's gonna disagree with you there. All most folks here are saying is that: Once off the Rez, then we all play by the same rules, with the same limits, and the same punishments. That's it. Level playing field for all. I bet most wouldn't mind $1 Licenses and tags for Natives if they would follow game management rules.
And let's be honest here. It's a complete waste of time hunting on a Rez, cuz everything on it, and for 5-10 km around, has been shot off. Bucks, Does, fawns, lambs, kids, bulls, cows and calves. There are exceptions, but they are rare.
Keep drivin'.......

[Jelvis]

A status Indian isn't prevented from hunting when he or she drives off the rez. Any Crown's Land within their territory boundaries and some beyond are open to legal and ethical hunting practices by members.
This is a highly shared management strategy among the Ministry's, feds and prov. it's not some hidden agenda kept as a secret. This is now, digital, intra web world with instant media .. High Tech .. University level management.
JElvi$ .. That was then .... This is now .. Crown Land .. Vast and Wild .. Lookin Pretty . Outside the City