Omineca moose survey

[fireguy]

Numbers are way down.

http://peachlandsportsmen.com/OMINECA2012MOOSESURVEY.pdf

http://peachlandsportsmen.com/moosepopdownbc.pdf

[r106]

That's bad news. I noticed they never mentioned wolfs. And that leh tag # are going to go down. But what about outfitter quota?

[fireguy]

It is mentioned

14. Predation issues need to be examined. Membership in all organizations has said that the wolf
populations are out of control and we need an understanding of the cause and effect of predation by
bears, wolves and coyotes on game populations.

[fireguy]

That's bad news. I noticed they never mentioned wolfs. And that leh tag # are going to go down. But what about outfitter quota?

GOABC membership has volunteered to not harvest any cows (with an exception of two or three hunts
presold for 2012). Everything is a help.

[rafike]

Easy solution, close all cow calf hunts immediatly, for at least 3 years and see what that does to numbers.

[Husky7mm]

Well so much for praising the omineca model! Never was a fan of it.

[burger]

This will become a LEH only area soon now...we will all see

[40incher]

Yeah, finally the Omenica "Model" shows its weakness. Shooting cows and calves makes little sense when a moose population is below carrying capacity. This should have been addressed after the severe winter five years ago. But, why be proactive?

The Skeena Plan, on the other hand, has shown its strength. A bull-only harvest by licensed hunters, with a combination of 3 LEH hunts, 3 GOS bow hunts, and a seven-day bull GOS in late October offers both opportunity and conservative management. Enough cows and calves are removed by the FN's, the highway/railway collisions, and a poorly managed predator population.

Time to reevaluate moose management in the Omenica and Cariboo. Cancel the antlerless hunt, reduce bull LEH numbers from the thousands previously drawn, and look at a bull GOS to coincide with the Skeena hunt. Almost makes too much sense!

[Darksith]

yeah, there is little to no common sense in a cow harvest, especially if you don't have the budget to properly inventory the heard size regularily, and completely. You cant do a count for one area and cast that across the entire region, well I couldn't sleep at night if I did that with my line of work. And they just assumed that if you didn't harvest calves they would die anyway??? What kind of ass hat ideology is that? Of course some will die, but Im sure a whole bunch of the ones that are harvested would survive the winter. Makes you wonder how some people get to the positions they are in with that kind of thinking.

[Husky7mm]

There was likley a steady decline for years already.... finally a count was done and surprise surprise....... go figure:roll:

[SHAKER]

Could never understand shooting your breeders and they're young?? I've had it explained to me many times but still seamed pretty weak. Don't see many beef farmers shooting all they're new calves because they're going to loose some of them anyway???

[ThinAir]

Well I'm glad the "experts" finally see the decline..... I hope it's not too late to stop the bleeding.
I shot 1 wolf this winter.. only a few thousand to go!

[Jagermeister]

Well so much for praising the omineca model! Never was a fan of it.
Actually, it's a good model.
The problem is the wolf proliferation exponentially to the increased moose population. I guess the biologists did not forsee that the wolves would be problematic. It made sense to the biologists to acquiesce to the pressure of indians and guides to keep the status quo with regard to the resident moose hunter allocation, particularly Region 5. The wolf harvest of moose, like the indian harvest, is un-regulated and has no accountability. Abracadavra, what do you have, a collapsed moose population.
The hazards of not having a GOS for immature moose in a timely manner in Region 5, the result for which you can thank the guides and indians.
And the guides, giving up cow hunts? What a crock! I thought their clients were trophy hunters, not meat hunters.

[The Hermit]

All of the above!

[Jagermeister]

Could never understand shooting your breeders and they're young?? I've had it explained to me many times but still seamed pretty weak. Don't see many beef farmers shooting all they're new calves because they're going to loose some of them anyway???


Could never understand shooting your breeders and they're young??How do you arrive at this supposition?
Breeding stock in cattle are not young animals, nor are they old animals. They are the prime animals, those which are proven breeders that deliver multiple births. Young cows only deliver single births regardless of the sire age and do not deliver multiples until they are 4 or five years of age.
Theoritically, prime moose cows are between the ages of 4 and 9 inclusively. The age that cows most often should deliver more than one calf per season.
Beef farmers sell most of the calves and yearlings at market and retain their breeder until they are getting old for breeding, but not too old for the market. A cattle farmer rotates his breeding stock.
Biologists try to emulate the same animal husbandry breeding pattern for moose as used by the cattle farmer for cattle.

[GoatGuy]

Yeah, finally the Omenica "Model" shows its weakness. Shooting cows and calves makes little sense when a moose population is below carrying capacity. This should have been addressed after the severe winter five years ago. But, why be proactive?

The Skeena Plan, on the other hand, has shown its strength. A bull-only harvest by licensed hunters, with a combination of 3 LEH hunts, 3 GOS bow hunts, and a seven-day bull GOS in late October offers both opportunity and conservative management. Enough cows and calves are removed by the FN's, the highway/railway collisions, and a poorly managed predator population.

Time to reevaluate moose management in the Omenica and Cariboo. Cancel the antlerless hunt, reduce bull LEH numbers from the thousands previously drawn, and look at a bull GOS to coincide with the Skeena hunt. Almost makes too much sense!

Moose are down in Region 6 as well and the Cariboo is way down, no regulated antlerless hunt there.

The model isn't the problem.

Most of this is going to be tied back to predation from beetle kill logging. They're going to find with beetle kill logging and increased road density, wolf incidence with prey species makes them much more sucessful, higher mortality, increase predator populations, decreased prey. The research has already been done on this. That's way fire is preferable to cutblocks. Fire creates food and obstacles for predators which results in productive moose population and relatively low mortality rates. Cutblocks create food, but provide no protection from predation.

The problem is going to be government will take too long, throw a couple million at studying it, then probably won't have the teeth to knock the wolves back, just like we're dealing with caribou across central and southern British Columbia. We already know the answer, just nobody's willing to stick their neck out on this.

We need predator control.

[The Hermit]

In addition to predator management, the other thing we need is for the FNs to wholeheartedly buy into a recovery and ongoing management plan and start to genuinely partner with the Province and other stakeholders in regard to documenting and reporting their harvest. The attitude of entitlement and screw everyone else at the expense of conservation bullshit has to stop from all sides of the coin. We need funding to conduct semi-annual aerial counts post hunting season and in the spring, not ever 6 years as has been the situation! Without good data is impossible to manage any complex system!

[Husky7mm]

You mean Predator Management:wink:
You see I can learn!

[Fisher-Dude]

And the guides, giving up cow hunts? What a crock! I thought their clients were trophy hunters, not meat hunters.

A crock it is, indeed. Non-residents get only 2% of the antlerless allocation.

[MRP]

easy solution, close all cow calf hunts immediatly, for at least 3 years and see what that does to numbers.

yes yes yes!!!!!!

[Fisher-Dude]

Closing the calf hunt would be a social experiment only, and have nothing to do with science. Moose numbers grew hugely during 25 years of calf hunts prior to this decline - 25 years with way more hunters too. Why did this happen? Why would closing it now be different?

As Goat Guy says, the problem is not with the Omineca model.

[r106]

Closing the calf hunt would be a social experiment only, and have nothing to do with science. Moose numbers grew hugely during 25 years of calf hunts prior to this decline - 25 years with way more hunters too. Why did this happen? Why would closing it now be different?

As Goat Guy says, the problem is not with the Omineca model.

And with #'s down in region 6 and 5 proves it. Is there an incentive they could come out with to promote hunters to get out there and shoot some wolfs? Price per skull kinda thing. Didn't the outfitters have a program like that? Or whats the best way to knock down there numbers?

[Fisher-Dude]

Air gunning and 1080 is the best way to put a dent in wolf populations.

Regular hunting doesn't do too much.

[Downwind]

Air gunning and 1080 is the best way to put a dent in wolf populations.

Regular hunting doesn't do too much.

And that's the best option but trying to get the gov. to institute it/allow it isn't likely to happen. The eco-terrorists will weep and say how inhumane it is. Like was said earlier, until someone is willing to stick their neck on this issue and be willing to take the beating the problem is just going to escalate unfortunately.

[Fisher-Dude]

I'll guarantee you one thing: the NDP will NOT allow ANY predator control. They have already stated so in the Legislature.

Now I'm hoping the BCWF and GOABC can make some headway with the current government and deal with this problem in December/January. It's really our best chance to get some action (maybe before it's too late).

Start the letters flowing, and get your butts down to your MLA's office and tell him/her how you are affected by this. It only takes 10 minutes to drop by and have a quick chat. Don't pound on his desk, just explain to him how losing moose seasons will affect you and the tradition with your family and friends - families first, right? Also explain how your annual moose hunt pumps a LOT of money into the economy and helps support towns that have been hard hit by things like the struggles in the forest industry.

There is literature that can give you some facts and figures on your economic impact from hunting...I think it is still linked on the BCWF website under wildlife allocations. Yep, it is: http://www.bcwf.net/images/stories/pdf/Hunting_Presentation_for_MLAs_small.pdf

[Jagermeister]

There will be a further decline in moose populations before they will recover. It all has to do with the decline in the wolf populations. As F-D said, 1080 and air gunning are the effective way, but the government is worried about the eco-green backlash. So with that said, the only way this will culminate is when the food supply totally collapses for the wolve, then their population will diminish likewise. The problem is that it is going to take many years for recovery, many years being in the neighbourhood of two decades if not more. And the problem will spread to other regions as the food source dwindles in one region. And it will not only be limited to moose, deer and elk will take a hit. Sheep and goats will be subject to predation too. It definitely is lose, lose scenerio.
About the time that it all recovers, the indians will have control of the province and hunting will be conducted under their auspices. Around that time, I probably won't be around to say, "I told you so!"
You all ought to be thinking about it now though.

[Sitkaspruce]

Predation control is needed, but how about access??

I do not want to see complete road closures, but I think we need to deactivate more and allow some areas to have "less pressure" from all 2 legged hunters.

Cheers

SS

[Fisher-Dude]

Predation control is needed, but how about access??

I do not want to see complete road closures, but I think we need to deactivate more and allow some areas to have "less pressure" from all 2 legged hunters.

Cheers

SS


Read GG's post. 2 leggers are not the problem.

[jmo]

What about having any licenced trapper being allowed to trap on crown land? Now a trapper has to trap on his trap line or on private property? If I am wrong please say. I know wolves are tough to trap, but I bet that others would get there trappers licence if they could trap wolves on crown land. I think a big setback on people getting there trappers licence is that they might not have anywhere to trap. I know myself personally, I would love to try to trap some wolves, but finding a spot to do so can be difficult, and not as effective. Just a thought.

[jmo]

Finallly a topic I think everyone can agree on. Too many wolves.

[MRP]

100% LEH no GOS?
Only if they can make the LEH fair.

[Husky7mm]

Read GG's post. 2 leggers are not the problem. he did mention tonnes of roads and access also but predators are in the lead

[Husky7mm]

That country is full of black bears , black bears are hard on moose calves. Many moose have twins yet soon after birth only one will remain. Black bear hunters are way down. It would make a difference if there was more hunter participation in hunting black bears.

[Cordillera]

re Trapping.

Trapping wolves is known to be very very difficult; takes years of experience as wolves are super wary. Many trappers who are otherwise great struggle to catch wolves. There was a trapper in Atlin, recently deceased, who was an expert in wolf trapping. He managed to get around a dozen a year and at those numbers it is possible that his efforts were having an effect. if you trap one or two a year in a trapline, it won't make a dent.

[.300WSMImpact!]

That country is full of black bears , black bears are hard on moose calves. Many moose have twins yet soon after birth only one will remain. Black bear hunters are way down. It would make a difference if there was more hunter participation in hunting black bears.

More people would hunt black bear if they didnt have to take all etable portions

[Sitkaspruce]

Read GG's post. 2 leggers are not the problem.

Pat

I know all about what goes on up there, and yes wolves/bears and even yotes are the number one problem, but you cannot count out all the access to new areas that used to be off limits to all 2 legged hunters. Now those areas are being hunted by both the licensed and unlicensed hunters. Seen it change in the 14 years I lived there, chasing beetle has changed the landscape and changed the areas that moose use for food and bedding. When you have 3-400+ha cutblocks with views of 500 m and 4 km of roads to drive, pressure does increase from all hunters.

Again, not saying complete road closures for all areas, but maybe a few areas can be restricted. We have quad restrictions in 7-38, access restrictions in 7-13 and other restrictions in other areas, so possibly these can be looked at. Would rather see access restrictions than less tags available for hunting.

It is a combo that is affecting the moose and other species, not just one thing and we need to focus on all of it, until we can get numbers back up.

Cheers

SS

[Caribou_lou]

You can't expect your population to grow with a Cow Calf harvest. Regiong 6 plan is much better. And the only reason our moose numbers are down is because the Ministry had plenty of time to manipulate their numbers. They clearly have an Agenda (All LEH) and will make every attempt to get their. As far as I know the Cow Calf numbers weren't down. Just the Bull to Cow Ratio. (in region 6)

[r106]

You can't expect your population to grow with a Cow Calf harvest. Regiong 6 plan is much better. And the only reason our moose numbers are down is because the Ministry had plenty of time to manipulate their numbers. They clearly have an Agenda (All LEH) and will make every attempt to get their. As far as I know the Cow Calf numbers weren't down. Just the Bull to Cow Ratio. (in region 6)

I'm still learning here but How long has the cow/calf harvest been around? I thought a read 25 years? If so I doubt that was a factor. If that model has had healthy #'s for 20 of those years then how can you blame region 7's model? I agree with others that the model is not the problem. But I understand having to shut it down to bring the numbers back up. But not until the real problem has been addressed. Then comes the question if we will ever get it back! If it is wolfs and other predators and the MOE won't cull them then the only way for a real recovery is to let the numbers dwindle down until the predators die off? There's got to be another way? Thats to scary

[greasysidedown]

This is exactly what the government [public] wanted. Save the mountian caribou by reducing the moose numbers which as Jagermeister pointed out will eventually decrease the wolf populations.

[Bowzone_Mikey]

Pretty sure I stated this many years ago when I moved back to BC .....

Calf hunt will do nothing for the population .... If you tell a rancher the best way to build his herd is to kill calf he would tell you to "Fuc yer hat"

Now that said ... I was in an area yesterday and seems to be polluted with moose by the amount of droppings and track I seen as well as the fresh shed that was picked up

[Caribou_lou]

I'm still learning here but How long has the cow/calf harvest been around? I thought a read 25 years? If so I doubt that was a factor.

If it's not a factor then why would they shut it down?

[blacklab]

That country is full of black bears , black bears are hard on moose calves. Many moose have twins yet soon after birth only one will remain. Black bear hunters are way down. It would make a difference if there was more hunter participation in hunting black bears.

Something else we can thank the last NDP administration for.
Forced meat retrieval and banning sale of gall bladdders pretty much ended bear hunting.

[blacklab]

Pretty sure I stated this many years ago when I moved back to BC .....

Calf hunt will do nothing for the population .... If you tell a rancher the best way to build his herd is to kill calf he would tell you to "Fuc yer hat"

Now that said ... I was in an area yesterday and seems to be polluted with moose by the amount of droppings and track I seen as well as the fresh shed that was picked up

When a rancher ships cattle in the fall, just what do you think is on the truck?
If they didn't ship all the calves except what the need to keep for replacement heifers, the'd run out of winter feed and pasture pretty quick.

[GoatGuy]

You can't expect your population to grow with a Cow Calf harvest. Regiong 6 plan is much better. And the only reason our moose numbers are down is because the Ministry had plenty of time to manipulate their numbers. They clearly have an Agenda (All LEH) and will make every attempt to get their. As far as I know the Cow Calf numbers weren't down. Just the Bull to Cow Ratio. (in region 6)


You are going to find it's down 20% or more in the lakes.

[GoatGuy]

If it's not a factor then why would they shut it down?

There's an equilibrium to be had and when moose are at a low(er) density harvesting cows is typically not in the best interest of the population.

[GoatGuy]

Pretty sure I stated this many years ago when I moved back to BC .....

Calf hunt will do nothing for the population .... If you tell a rancher the best way to build his herd is to kill calf he would tell you to "Fuc yer hat"

Now that said ... I was in an area yesterday and seems to be polluted with moose by the amount of droppings and track I seen as well as the fresh shed that was picked up

Intelligence is the limiting factor here.

[Bowzone_Mikey]

When a rancher ships cattle in the fall, just what do you think is on the truck?
If they didn't ship all the calves except what the need to keep for replacement heifers, the'd run out of winter feed and pasture pretty quick.
Spoken like someone that has 2 problems ... Knows enough to be dangerous .... doesnt have basic comprehention skills ......

I said Build herd ... not sustain at current levels

the reasoning for the calf hunt as I understood it was because 50 % of calves die from winter anyway .... the province said lets have the hunters make use of them .... Noble thought ... but not very realistic in the grand scheme of things .... since calves that survive the 10 day season still have a 50-50 chance of surviving the winter .... so instead of not having a calf season and having about 50% live on .... about 37% will live to see the next spring all things being equal..... but as listed above all things are equal as the predator population is in a high cycle right now ..... that will eventually come around .... Most likely not in any of our lifetimes.

I wonder how Mother Nature did it all those thousands of years ago????

[trapperRick]

Easy solution, close all cow, calf hunts immediately, same with doe seasons for deer and a bounty on wolves and yotes would help

[r106]

If it's not a factor then why would they shut it down?


If the cow/calf hunt has been around for 25 years and the numbers have not drastically reduced until the last couple of years then there is no way you can blame the cow/calf hunt. If the numbers are down do to wolf and other predators, cow/calf hunt's would be the first to go followed by reduced bull tags. Which in my mind won't do a dam thing until the main cause for the reduced numbers are dealt with

[Cordillera]

re calf harvest; the assumption that calves die during winter is correct. The other assumption is that about half of them are male, and as long as your bull/cow ratio is high enough, the males are surplus. So as long as your herd is healthy there is a good rationale for a calf harvest. Need to see calf survival rates to see if there is a recruitment problem and whether shutting down calf season would have much effect.

[Caribou_lou]

At first region 6 was only down 10%. Give them time to manipulate the numbers and all of a sudden we are down 20%. Typical of the ministry and their professional moose counters. Who I might add, denied participation of the BV Rod and Gun in the moose count.

[Husky7mm]

If they are wrong than good, but you should acually hope they manipulate further...... preditor management will happen if enough noise is made. Think of the bigger picture.
I heard some areas were down more than 20% and the wolves have had to subsitiute there moose diet for caribou! :shock:;-)

[Wild one]

What about having any licenced trapper being allowed to trap on crown land? Now a trapper has to trap on his trap line or on private property? If I am wrong please say. I know wolves are tough to trap, but I bet that others would get there trappers licence if they could trap wolves on crown land. I think a big setback on people getting there trappers licence is that they might not have anywhere to trap. I know myself personally, I would love to try to trap some wolves, but finding a spot to do so can be difficult, and not as effective. Just a thought.

Letting trappers trap any crown land would help with wolves but could do more damage to other fur bearers. The point of the trapline system is that it is in the best interest of the trapline owner to manage the resources on the line or the trapper will hurt them selves by over trapping.

The bigger problem is the vacant lines that have not been getting auctioned off and are sitting there doing nothing because trappers cannot buy them. This problem is being addressed at this time and is making good progress and should be getting some results sometime this year. In my opinion this is what is preventing trappers from being able to have places to trap not that you can only trap on a trapline or private land.

Getting trappers back out there will help but will not solve the problem completely. But hunting and Ariel shooting(wolves learn choppers and planes mean danger) by it self is not going to do it either. A combination of all methods is what would be most effective.

[jmo]

Seems like some good info. I think if you were aloud to only trap for wolves on crown land that might help. Anyways, this news is pretty scary and I think everyone in the province should be scared too. I have not hunted bears in a long time, but am personally going to go out and try to do my part every spring. I think if anyone really cares than they should go out and do the same too. Go out and scout some areas for the fall, and shoot a couple bears. Sounds like a pretty fun way to save some moose!
Letting trappers trap any crown land would help with wolves but could do more damage to other fur bearers. The point of the trapline system is that it is in the best interest of the trapline owner to manage the resources on the line or the trapper will hurt them selves by over trapping.

The bigger problem is the vacant lines that have not been getting auctioned off and are sitting there doing nothing because trappers cannot buy them. This problem is being addressed at this time and is making good progress and should be getting some results sometime this year. In my opinion this is what is preventing trappers from being able to have places to trap not that you can only trap on a trapline or private land.

Getting trappers back out there will help but will not solve the problem completely. But hunting and Ariel shooting(wolves learn choppers and planes mean danger) by it self is not going to do it either. A combination of all methods is what would be most effective.

[Husky7mm]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JVkaMqD5mI&feature=fvst

Not much fight in the moma moose....

[GoatGuy]

"At first region 6 was only down 10%. Give them time to manipulate the numbers and all of a sudden we are down 20%. Typical of the ministry and their professional moose counters. Who I might add, denied participation of the BV Rod and Gun in the moose count. "


When you look at the declining sex ratios the decline in population makes sense.

[Confused]

The ratios are almost the same statistically, and point to an increase in the population in the last couple years. If you are trying to say the situation in region 6 is the same as omineca, I would strongly disagree, and so would a lot of others within government. I agree that there must be environmental factors outside of licensed hunting that are at play here, but to say that region six has experienced the preciptous decline that omineca has, or even close, is preposterous. I would argue that the continued cow harvest during the obvious decline in the overall moose population in omineca, probably hasn't helped, and will need to be curtailed significantly if populations are to rebound at any substantive rate.

[GoatGuy]

The ratios are almost the same statistically, and point to an increase in the population in the last couple years. If you are trying to say the situation in region 6 is the same as omineca, I would strongly disagree, and so would a lot of others within government. I agree that there must be environmental factors outside of licensed hunting that are at play here, but to say that region six has experienced the preciptous decline that omineca has, or even close, is preposterous. I would argue that the continued cow harvest during the obvious decline in the overall moose population in omineca, probably hasn't helped, and will need to be curtailed significantly if populations are to rebound at any substantive rate.


The bull:cow are not the same. No one said it was 50% or anywhere close to the omineca, just that 20% is possible. You also have declining kpue in 6 as well. Probably see more of a decline along the eastern edge



600 cow moose being harvested across 7a where you probably had close to 40k moose is insignificant. Removing that harvest is trivial in the grand scheme of things.

[dana]

They spent a Shitload of money live capturing wolves. They put collars on them and turned them loose. I have no doubt in my mind a collared wolf will kill the last caribou. Currently what you are seeing is exactly what they wanted to happen. Hand out a shitload of moose tags and drop the numbers to help save the caribou. Once the wolves eat all the moose, they won't leave until the caribou are finally gone. And the wolves will move on and flourish in other areas and do the same. If you do nothing about your predators, you will have nothing to hunt. Nothing to hunt means the hunter numbers drop off to the point where they don't count when it comes to votes.

[Confused]

I guess the key word in your statement is "had".

[nap]

I have mixwd feelings on all that is being said about the decline of moose in the omineca, I spend 90% of my hunting in omineca, the other 10% in the peace, Most hunting is done in 7-24 or 7- 16, I by no means have any answers but, the time I spend in the bush I don't see alot of wolves, and don't see this as the problem. Now drive down the lets say the salmon forest road during calf season and talk to the groups of hunters, they seem to have no problems driving for hours for that calf season, Is it the wolves or the hunters or a combination of both?? I don't have to be part of any government moose count to see the decline. Somethings just have to change, my vote would be no calf season, a draw for 1/2 the amount of cows. keep the bull numbers the same, and as for the wolves no idea.

[big game chaser]

Easy solution, close all cow calf hunts immediatly, for at least 3 years and see what that does to numbers.

e

xactly most ******ed thing ever opening them! leh or not!

[big game chaser]

I was out hunting bears on sunday and saw 9 moose in region 7 didnt think that was too bad! i also saw 2 wolves and 21 bears!

[Husky7mm]

They spent a Shitload of money live capturing wolves. They put collars on them and turned them loose. I have no doubt in my mind a collared wolf will kill the last caribou. Currently what you are seeing is exactly what they wanted to happen. Hand out a shitload of moose tags and drop the numbers to help save the caribou. Once the wolves eat all the moose, they won't leave until the caribou are finally gone. And the wolves will move on and flourish in other areas and do the same. If you do nothing about your predators, you will have nothing to hunt. Nothing to hunt means the hunter numbers drop off to the point where they don't count when it comes to votes.

All very true!


I have to add also IMO harvesting a large part of the majority of the population upstream of reproduction is for sure gonna keep the population at bay or in constant decline. The lack of moose in the omenica is gonna have a ripple effect all over the province. These peaks and valleys are avoidable!

[Husky7mm]

I was out hunting bears on sunday and saw 9 moose in region 7 didnt think that was too bad! i also saw 2 wolves and 21 bears!
Spring can be deceiving, game is very concentrated you are likely seeing a large part of the total pop of that area..... So how many bears and wolves did you kill?

[Eastbranch]

You're amazing. The liberal government you love to death logged the bajeezus out of every square inch of ground up there and you've found a way to put the blame on the NDP by saying they won't control predators? Hahahahahahahahaha. You're a beauty. I know you probably shoot most of your critters from the truck window in a cutblock, but that's not really where they *live*


I'll guarantee you one thing: the NDP will NOT allow ANY predator control. They have already stated so in the Legislature.

Now I'm hoping the BCWF and GOABC can make some headway with the current government and deal with this problem in December/January. It's really our best chance to get some action (maybe before it's too late).

Start the letters flowing, and get your butts down to your MLA's office and tell him/her how you are affected by this. It only takes 10 minutes to drop by and have a quick chat. Don't pound on his desk, just explain to him how losing moose seasons will affect you and the tradition with your family and friends - families first, right? Also explain how your annual moose hunt pumps a LOT of money into the economy and helps support towns that have been hard hit by things like the struggles in the forest industry.

There is literature that can give you some facts and figures on your economic impact from hunting...I think it is still linked on the BCWF website under wildlife allocations. Yep, it is: http://www.bcwf.net/images/stories/pdf/Hunting_Presentation_for_MLAs_small.pdf

Not a 2 legged problem? I call BS. You can't get 500y from a road of some kind in most of 7a moose country. Every dam bull gets run ragged chasing fake cows for 3 weeks. How much effective insemination is happening when every bull is trying to service 5 cows and 15 hunters?

[Husky7mm]

It is a bit of a phenomenon with the omenica model, coupled in with tons of access that the moose population didnt tank years ago, but it stayed somehow stable. The predator explosion has just taking it from the frying pan to the fire. If it was only a "2 legged" problem there should have been a large increase in the harvest, and success rates over that last however many years, Was there????
Clearly the stratagy of prey reduction was hopefull at best and now is a good time to revert back to something that has proven to work in the past. The time is now, before we start loosing particapants!

[Eastbranch]

I'm pretty sure success rate is up in recent years (especially on cow draws), just my guess. I'm not sold on the predator argument. Yeah, there seems to be more wolves now than any time in recent memory. But look at the numbers....no way do they match up solely with a predation increase. Wolf control is a short term solution and a long term problem. GG knows this, wonder why he's asking for a cull? You on contract to fly the plane big guy???

[GoatGuy]

It is a bit of a phenomenon with the omenica model, coupled in with tons of access that the moose population didnt tank years ago, but it stayed somehow stable. The predator explosion has just taking it from the frying pan to the fire. If it was only a "2 legged" problem there should have been a large increase in the harvest, and success rates over that last however many years, Was there????
Clearly the stratagy of prey reduction was hopefull at best and now is a good time to revert back to something that has proven to work in the past. The time is now, before we start loosing particapants!

KPUE decreased, harvest decreased since about 2006 iirc.

This model has been in effect for over 30 years. It is the longest running moose management regime in the province.

[GoatGuy]

I'm pretty sure success rate is up in recent years (especially on cow draws), just my guess. I'm not sold on the predator argument. Yeah, there seems to be more wolves now than any time in recent memory. But look at the numbers....no way do they match up solely with a predation increase. Wolf control is a short term solution and a long term problem. GG knows this, wonder why he's asking for a cull? You on contract to fly the plane big guy???

It's not up, poor guess.

Cutblocks create food, they don't create escape terrain. In a natural ecosystem you'd have fire which creates food and leaves blowdown which put things in the moose's favour. With widescale logging you create more and better access not only for hunters but also for wolves. They're perfectly set up for this. They can cover a pile of ground effortlessly, and don't have logjams to go over/under/around when in pursuit. Really, they're just like people. Same applies to pipelines and transects. There's plenty of research on the effect of increased incidence and predation due to road networks.

[Husky7mm]

My guess is many inventories are comming in weak, if action i not taken soon then many hunters will just drop the sport or it will all go on LEH. Hunting can be expensive, its reasonable to expect something to show for your efforts as a particapant.

I watched the nature of things the other day and it was about the reintroduction of the seaotter and how it had comeback so strong it was effecting many things negatively along the whole coast. Even David Suzuki was for "sea otter management" so to speak. Of course his bias was for the natives to be doing it, instead of whitie but the whole line of thinking could be applied to the land and not just the sea so to speak.

[GoatGuy]

Not a 2 legged problem? I call BS. You can't get 500y from a road of some kind in most of 7a moose country. Every dam bull gets run ragged chasing fake cows for 3 weeks. How much effective insemination is happening when every bull is trying to service 5 cows and 15 hunters?

Gillingham would be extremely dissapointed.

[Eastbranch]

Data.....?

[Eastbranch]

Gillingham would be extremely dissapointed.

Hahahaha. Not worried about it.

[GoatGuy]

Data.....?
Days per kill 2002-2010


27.7


27.2


24.9


29.8


31.7


34.2


33.6


42.2


32.7

Total Harvest


3668


3587


3129


3190


3038


2735


2860


2355


2839

[GoatGuy]

Probably doesn't seem like a big deal to most without a background in numbers but that's pretty significant when it's put across 11,000+ hunters and 90,000+ days.

[GoatGuy]

Hahahaha. Not worried about it.

You should be, your comments should be reflective of the quality of your education.

[Husky7mm]

Even teachers should never stop learning.......

[Eastbranch]

Wildlife is my hobby, not my job. I take a practical approach. I don't see a significant difference 07-10. 09 was a terrible weather year, nobody was connecting. Stabilizing at lower levels of abundance like thompson steelhead? Hahaha

[GoatGuy]

Wildlife is my hobby, not my job. I take a practical approach. I don't see a significant difference 07-10. 09 was a terrible weather year, nobody was connecting. Stabilizing at lower levels of abundance like thompson steelhead? Hahaha

Unfortunate approach.

As said before won't comment on the micro environment for hirabiltiy, but if you read you'll figure it out.

[40incher]

Geez, you go away bear huntin' for a few days and the spin doctors go crazy.

The data are, in reality, the facts from the most recent inventories. To defend the Omenica "model" regardless of the truth is more than a little suspect, especially when it has been a totally bureaucratically-driven system only supported by the "connected" hunting reps. The Skeena plan was developed by real hunters, with the Ministry dragged along screaming and hollering. Now that it has proved its worth certain apologists for the Ministry now start spewing out dysingenuous excuses as to why all is good in the Omenica. All is not good.

Killing little 80 lb. calves might make sense in Sweden, but it holds no water here.

What we have here is the standard "we are the experts because our locally-transplanted RP Bio status says we are". Local, long-term, knowledge means nothing to these people. Even though we have lived the life on this land for many decades, we have listened to those that came before us, and we have fought the good fight for the interests of all, we mean nothing. I think it's time for the Omenica-brainwashed-apologists on this site to quack up.

I really like the Thompson steelhead connection. Another dirty trick waiting to be exposed.

One thing this thread has done is to get the discussion out there. We have seen the moose "management" kingdoms exposed for what they are. Three plans are working, for the moose and against the total-LEH bull hunt preachers, and that would be the North and South Skeena and the North Peace. Both do not support any antlerless killing unless we are at an overpopulation situation, and both have a GOS bull season that allows "any" B.C. resident to hunt moose if they cannot draw one of the "king's" tags.

The Omineca "model" should be allowed to die a quick death (after 25 years of painful tolerance), as it is only humane.

Moose are a very resilient species. Let's not let them become just another in a long and growing line of provincial icons, like the precious and untouchable B.C. steelhead trout (best quick-poached and smoked over an alder fire).

[GoatGuy]

Geez, you go away bear huntin' for a few days and the spin doctors go crazy.

The data are, in reality, the facts from the most recent inventories. To defend the Omenica "model" regardless of the truth is more than a little suspect, especially when it has been a totally bureaucratically-driven system only supported by the "connected" hunting reps. The Skeena plan was developed by real hunters, with the Ministry dragged along screaming and hollering. Now that it has proved its worth certain apologists for the Ministry now start spewing out dysingenuous excuses as to why all is good in the Omenica. All is not good.

Killing little 80 lb. calves might make sense in Sweden, but it holds no water here.

What we have here is the standard "we are the experts because our locally-transplanted RP Bio status says we are". Local, long-term, knowledge means nothing to these people. Even though we have lived the life on this land for many decades, we have listened to those that came before us, and we have fought the good fight for the interests of all, we mean nothing. I think it's time for the Omenica-brainwashed-apologists on this site to quack up.

I really like the Thompson steelhead connection. Another dirty trick waiting to be exposed.

One thing this thread has done is to get the discussion out there. We have seen the moose "management" kingdoms exposed for what they are. Three plans are working, for the moose and against the total-LEH bull hunt preachers, and that would be the North and South Skeena and the North Peace. Both do not support any antlerless killing unless we are at an overpopulation situation, and both have a GOS bull season that allows "any" B.C. resident to hunt moose if they cannot draw one of the "king's" tags.

The Omineca "model" should be allowed to die a quick death (after 25 years of painful tolerance), as it is only humane.

Moose are a very resilient species. Let's not let them become just another in a long and growing line of provincial icons, like the precious and untouchable B.C. steelhead trout (best quick-poached and smoked over an alder fire).

You're going to find Region 5 is down 20-60% depending on the area in the last couple years as well. Low recruitment, no licensed cow/calf harvest.

Moose are down across pretty much everything north of Kamloops in the last 5, 10 years and 20 years........ including region 6.

Regions 5, 6 and 7a have all had different management strategies and all have experienced declines. The BV in Region 6 is down about 35% over the last what 8 years? 50% over the last 15?

Everyone can sit around and pick at the hunting regulations and management strategies, but it won't make more moose.

Waste of time more than anything else, but for some reason that seems to be a favorite past time.

[Husky7mm]

If no season is offered for cows or calfs, that will "make more moose" right or wrong?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

If no season is offered for cows or calfs, that will "make more moose" right or wrong?


That scenario hasn't worked in Reg 5.

SSS

[Wild one]

It is shown in the numbers that the moose management in BC is not working as planned so why defend it?

It is only common sense that if you come up with a plan and you are not getting the results you expected that something needs to change to get the results you are looking for. Being stubborn and sticking to a failing plan rarely ever ends with good results. There are obviously factors that have come into play that were not considered with the moose population.

I assume these issues are being looked into and hope adjustments are made to improve the population. Hunting may not be the main factor in the drop in population but it would not make sense to run a management plan that was set into place for a population that is higher than present time.

Do I think I have the answer to this problem no but it is easy to see that adjustments are needed


I have little faith in the management of wildlife in BC but I hope I am proven wrong in the future

[Stone Sheep Steve]

It is shown in the numbers that the moose management in BC is not working as planned so why defend it?

It is only common sense that if you come up with a plan and you are not getting the results you expected that something needs to change to get the results you are looking for. Being stubborn and sticking to a failing plan rarely ever ends with good results. There are obviously factors that have come into play that were not considered with the moose population.

I assume these issues are being looked into and hope adjustments are made to improve the population. Hunting may not be the main factor in the drop in population but it would not make sense to run a management plan that was set into place for a population that is higher than present time.

Do I think I have the answer to this problem no but it is easy to see that adjustments are needed


I have little faith in the management of wildlife in BC but I hope I am proven wrong in the future

You could shut down all legalized hunting of moose in these problem areas and not solve the problem.

SSS

[Husky7mm]

That scenario hasn't worked in Reg 5.

SSS

You know the why region 5 moose are in a slump.

[Wild one]

You could shut down all legalized hunting of moose in these problem areas and not solve the problem.

SSS


This could be true but continuing to harvest the numbers that we have been out of a population that is declining is not going to help either.

I am not assuming legal hunting is the main problem but would in not be smart to minimize the impact of hunting on a declining population?

[Confused]

This could be true but continuing to harvest the numbers that we have been out of a population that is declining is not going to help either.

I am not assuming legal hunting is the main problem but would in not be smart to minimize the impact of hunting on a declining population?

Bingo, we have a winner!

[bigwhiteys]

This could be true but continuing to harvest the numbers that we have been out of a population that is declining is not going to help either.

I am not assuming legal hunting is the main problem but would in not be smart to minimize the impact of hunting on a declining population?

Common sense doesn't apply to wildlife management... Duh!

[Eastbranch]

Far too often the case in recent memory. So many 'managers' have their heads up their statistical buttholes these days. Academia should be curb stomped in these types of situations. Moose pop'n decreasing - close or restrict cow harvests. It's a no brainer. This coming from a guy who's whacked more flattops than bulls.

Common sense doesn't apply to wildlife management... Duh!

[boxhitch]

Have to consider the negative effects that closing a season has on hunting in general.
Loss of opportunity = loss of hunters, old or new.
= increase pressure elsewhere that has openings, causing lower quality hunts.
= loss of opp for mixed bag hunts
among others

If the hunt is not having an effect, why give it up ?
If the numbers are really so low, success will be down anyway

[1899]

Days per kill 2002-2010


27.7



27.2



24.9



29.8



31.7



34.2



33.6



42.2



32.7

Total Harvest



3668



3587



3129



3190



3038



2735



2860



2355



2839








So if in 2005 there were 23,000 moose of all genders, and 3190 were taken, that means just under 14% of the entire population was harvested. If we assume a linear decline in population, then in 2010 a total of 2839 were harvested out of a population of ~13,500. That gives harvest of just over 21% of the population. Is that a fair assessment?

If that is true, then success rates relative to the population are rapidly increasing.

[Eastbranch]

Those possible ramifications involve a lot of theory and assumption. Shooting cows is a high risk option in a recovery plan: that's not a maybe. They just closed the GOS MD doe season, don't see anyone complaining about that even though it was based on guesswork from the very start.

[Scuba_Dave]

I say close the GOS on doe, and reduce the bull hunt...It will only take a few years to rebound, wont have the high #'s but it will give a base to work from, then open as necessary. Seems pretty simple to me :)

[boxhitch]

It is. Always easy to close something, not so easy to open.

[Confused]

It is. Always easy to close something, not so easy to open.

You don't have to close anything, just curtail it, i.e. bring cow authorizations down to 1 or 2. Then you don't have to worry about opening the season when there is a recovery............there are ways.

[Eastbranch]

Cow LEH in 7-15 was 50ish tags @ 5:1ish odds last time I put in. Halve it and you won't see any kind of change in hunter effort...promise. Vast majority of people are going out hunting on calf weekend regardless of whether they have a cow draw or not. We know shooting calves doesn't matter, but whacking whole family units probably does. Most of 7a cow draws are less than 7:1 odds if memory serves. Some are even undersubscribed. Halve them and the odds will double. Still worth applying for (especially with a group) and the end result is probably a third less family units getting whacked. It's not rocket science. If you want to get into theoreticals about pressure distribution; if you cut the 7-15 allocation in half I'll bet you five bucks you'll see a doubling of 7-14 applicants which has the same # of tags and half the applicants. Even if you halved 7-15 and 7-14 the odds on both would be less than 8:1 ... is that going to discourage people from applying? Hell no. There's lots of space in 7a to hunt cows.

I still don't see much of a decline in total harvest post 2007 considering that 2009 was a terrible year for hunting conditions. If 2 legs aren't the cause as you say (which I am skeptical of), total harvest should be reflective of pop'n size. If the pop'n decline is linear as 1899 suggests, then your theory about 2 legs not being the problem gets shot all to hell because if the math does work out to 21% of the pop'n (I didn't check it), you can't exactly blame wolves. There ain't many critters that can stand removals at 20%. But given all the white noise, most logical solution seems to be stop whacking family units and see what happens. And we haven't even mentioned that 09 and 10 winters were super crappy and spring/summer of 10 was the wettest year in decades.

[GoatGuy]

Certainly the cow harvest will be knocked right back, probably only a couple Auth per area as confused stated.

The point is moose are in decline in several areas not solely 7a.

What's the plan after that?

[1899]

Does anyone track the FN harvest? I'm not trying to start anything here, but wouldn't it be prudent to know when, where and how many they harvest?

[1899]

Certainly the cow harvest will be knocked right back, probably only a couple Auth per area as confused stated.

The point is moose are in decline in several areas not solely 7a.

What's the plan after that?

There is a new LEH for Cow or Calf in region 8. What is going on there that is different here?

Are other jurisdictions seeing such problems (Yukon, Alaska, Alberta)? If not then what, if anything, can we learn from them?

[Husky7mm]

No shortage of habitat up there right?

WACK A PACK !!!!

[GoatGuy]

There is a new LEH for Cow or Calf in region 8. What is going on there that is different here?

Are other jurisdictions seeing such problems (Yukon, Alaska, Alberta)? If not then what, if anything, can we learn from them?

Basically everything north of Kamloops is down.

Region 8 has a cow/calf LEH this year.

Other jurisdictions are seeing declines for various reasons. Guess is the finger's going to end up pointing at bettle logging and predation (wolves).

[GoatGuy]

No shortage of habitat up there right?

WACK A PACK !!!!


That will probably end up being the solution, the only way it will happen is if consumptive users get their collective you know what together.

[GoatGuy]

Does anyone track the FN harvest? I'm not trying to start anything here, but wouldn't it be prudent to know when, where and how many they harvest?

They try to in Region 5, other places no. Would be nice to know, but again it isn't necessarily one of those things that 'changed' and many of the areas are not near/in FNR. Most of the hunting has been consistent, the decline is due to one or several factors outside of consumptive use.

[Eastbranch]

Band aid solution + denial of harvest as a problem = continued decline

[GoatGuy]

Band aid solution...

Required solution, just like it is for mountain caribou.

If people want to log every single inch of the forest and put roads up everywhere and have lots of moose, some caribou, bears etc and wolves, you have to have predator control.

There's a pile of research only this, the problem is there's never been an appetite to put it to use in BC.

[hunterdon]

Ok, the big question is WHY are moose numbers down? After reading all the posts, many have made valid points. So, in order to answer this, here is my 2 cents worth. So......WHY are moose numbers up? Yes moose numbers are up and dramatically so. Where, do you ask? in Newfoundland of course. I saw a documentary last year about moose in Newfoundland. Apparently moose are not native to Newfoundland. They were first introduced in 1878 and the population has grown to the point where it now has the largest and highest moose population in North America/world. This despite a staggering hunter success rate of 88 to 90 percent. So, why the difference? only one difference stands out that I could see. Guess what? NO PREDATION FROM WOLVES! Here's the linlk below. Read it and you'll probably agree with me. Without predator control there is not much hope for a healthy recovery anytime soon.

Oh, and by the way. Those that think we should let nature control itself, that is.... when the moose population drops low, then the wolf population will also drop accordingly, and the moose population will then increase. Think again. That won't happen, because when the moose/deer population crashes, the wolves still have all those yummy domestic cattle to sustain them through the hard times and thus KEEP their numbers up and the moose/deer population low. That's my take anyways.

http://bolt.lakeheadu.ca/~alceswww/Vol45/Alces45_125.pdf

[Confused]

Certainly the cow harvest will be knocked right back, probably only a couple Auth per area as confused stated.

The point is moose are in decline in several areas not solely 7a.

What's the plan after that?

The plan...... is to get someone, preferably someone that is far removed from BC wildlife management to look into this. Someone without an agenda of any kind, and try and identify the problem(s). I believe this is what is going to happen, whether it is a university, or a Vince Chrichton of the world.

[The Hermit]

Does anyone track the FN harvest? I'm not trying to start anything here, but wouldn't it be prudent to know when, where and how many they harvest?

Yes it would, and as I said earlier in this thread, even though people don't want to hear it, on the part of some FN it seems that their "right" to hunt for food and ceremony has been translated into hunting indiscriminately any time of the year, anywhere and as much as they like, often with an attitude of entitlement and stick it in your eye if you don't like it. Most FN currently do not report their harvest and that is a part of the problem and must change. IMHO due to conservation threats ALL moose hunters, regardless of race, should have to report their harvests! Without that data all the science and statistical models boil down to sophisticated guess work.

If the bull/cow ratios are acceptable then we need to kill off a bunch of wolves, impose new regulations on forestry with respect to increased cover and escapement in the habitat, and somehow impose some conservation based limits on FN harvest and reporting.

[Husky7mm]

Not a lot has to be done to the habitat if the bulk of the wolves are gone. Mady David suzuki will help us...... Lol funny but he did condone " sea otter management " and we are experiencing the same problem with wolves right now.
For what its worth there are no wolves on the queen charletts either, and they have a deer problem!

[Husky7mm]

It will be easier to implament predator management then to impose limits on FN......

[GoatGuy]

The plan...... is to get someone, preferably someone that is far removed from BC wildlife management to look into this. Someone without an agenda of any kind, and try and identify the problem(s). I believe this is what is going to happen, whether it is a university, or a Vince Chrichton of the world.
It was rhetorical for the posters. Typically people think changing the hunting season will result in a dramatic increase, that never comes. Once the season is changed all is forgotten.

Vince would be good.

[Husky7mm]

Husky never forgets, and it haunts him. Some folks think there's a never ending supply that come from magical places other hunters won't go and predators don't exist.......

[Husky7mm]

I thought so too once but apparently our tag and license fees don't cover what we have. Correct me if I heard wrong...

[Eastbranch]

T-15 minutes until fisher dude blames this on the NDP :lol:

one of the main issues here is the lack of government dollars going to inventory, this decrease in numbers did not happen overnight, likely it has been in decline for years, however our current government has chosen to suck the dollars out of the wildlife and put very little back in, pretty hard to manage anything when your are making your decisions with very little information, perhaps as the bcwf has said...ALL of the money from our license and tags should be going to wildlife rather than to general revenue, in turn then the 60 percent of hctf funds that the government bios currently use via proposals could be given to proponents on top of the tag and licsense money...just a thought

[bigwhiteys]

T-15 minutes until fisher dude blames this on the NDP :lol:


Nah... He said he doesn't post on HBC while he's working... It's a workday today isn't it?

[TSS]

one of the main issues here is the lack of government dollars going to inventory, this decrease in numbers did not happen overnight, likely it has been in decline for years, however our current government has chosen to suck the dollars out of the wildlife and put very little back in, pretty hard to manage anything when your are making your decisions with very little information, perhaps as the bcwf has said...ALL of the money from our license and tags should be going to wildlife rather than to general revenue, in turn then the 60 percent of hctf funds that the government bios currently use via proposals could be given to proponents on top of the tag and licsense money...just a thought

Yes and the counts on other species are just as bad or worse. Trouble is we have people around like FD's pilot son, that place thier total trust into unfounded science as they preach what they read. Then they throw daggers and scrap all the information presented by those with a vested interest, the means to take accurate counts and a life of living with these animals. Quite a system we have here in this beautiful province. Hope all you guy's that thought everything was so rosy can say LEH.

[40incher]

We truly live in California North.

It's not about what is true, it's about how commercial interests control gov't decisions.

Taking Stone's Sheep off of quota is just the cat's ass!

LEH is the mantra we are being forced in to.