Double Targets from same Shooting Stakes .

[greybark]

Four of us Archers whipped thru our second round of twenty targets with no slow ups , Heck we saw no squads until the double (18-19) where we bumped into five Compound archers . As required they shot one arrow at each of the targets , Two from the Extrems Stakes (four shots), one from the Compound Stakes (two shots) and two from the Ladies stake (four shots).
These are some the finest archers (one a world class Pro ) and as such we waited as the shot prep and execution of each shot took place . I fully realize this is their game and have no problem with the time element involved . The wait was around fifteen minutes . No doubt the double targets contributed to the delay but I wonder why a compound archer who stood by a shooting stake and glassing and judging distance to the target while his cohorts shoot then step up to the stake and go thru the whole thing again before shooting . Did the Target move ? :-D
To be fair to them they were already in the act of shooting when we approached and had the right not to let us shoot thru .
Only once have I experienced such a long delay at one target and that was at the Cdn 3-D Championships . This was intended as a Fun Shoot and such delays quickly take the fun out of it .
After a recent decline of archers at 3_D events the numbers appear to be increasing and these delays can be a turn off to some .
:-DCheers:-D

[Bow Walker]

Not sure what shoot you are referring to greybark? But - I've never heard of having to shoot two arrows at a target in a 3D shoot - ever. Was it manditory that the shooters shoot two arrows, or was it a two arrow round where if you missed on the first arrow you were allowed a second - with the resulting 1/2 points accrued?

Not sure what the problem is other than archers piling up at an ill-considered target area..........

[greybark]

Hey Bow Walker , edited (Corrected) my post . Two targets (one arrow each) were shot from the same location . Only two squads involved and a delay of 15 min is BS.
Cheers

[Bow Walker]

So there were 5 archers in the group ahead of you and they all had compound bows - these five people shot at two different targets (one arrow each) and they took 15 minutes to "git 'er dun" is that correct?

Given that a person is only allowed a short amount of time (30 seconds?) at the stake - to look, aim, and shoot - before they must vacate it, I agree with you that the wait was way out of line.

They were clearly abusing the rules both written and unwritten. If one of them was a "pro" he should have realized what was happening and said something. Poor sportsmanship if you ask me.

[firstlight]

...only guessing on why the need to range find again but maybe it's just a normal part of the shot sequence so it's more "comfortable" to do it vs. not.

I don't know the rules on time limits but I have never heard of any in any official manner. If I was shooting a compound and shooting 3Ds throughout the season for score I'd take all the time I needed as well I suspect. Albeit painful to the Trad guys.

The one thing I miss from where I used to live is 3D shoots which were traditional only shoots. Or 3D shoots for all archers but NO rangefinders allowed.

While I understand the need for added time for compound shooters and realize it's a must I also know that the time needed for the compounders is what keeps many traditional archers from going to 3D events.

I wish there was an easy solution.

Like you suggest, when appropiate I would play through.

[Bowzone_Mikey]

actually the only official time limit I know of is FITA 3D ...and thats 1 minute at the stake ..... the general accepted way of life for the FCA is 5 mins per group at the stake starting when the first shooter steps up to the stake .... and has been enforced in the past at National events

15 minutes to clear 2 targets for a group of five is not terrible timing .... shoot target A... aprox 6 minutes (based on FCA of 5 min/group=1 min 15 sec per shooter) ....6 min to shoot target B .... 3 min to score and clear target ....

[BHarp]

Here is the actual FCA rule for shooting time limit at a 3D. Regardless of the skill level of the archers, compound vs. recurve etc.... Having 2 targets shot from the same stake will always slow things down....


11.3.5.2 [Outdoor only] Two minutes are allowed for the first archer in the group. This time will begin when the previousgroup clears the target. Each following archer in the group will have two minutes to shoot his arrow. This two minutes timelimit begins when the previous archer in the group releases his arrow.

[Bowzone_Mikey]

Here is the actual FCA rule for shooting time limit at a 3D. Regardless of the skill level of the archers, compound vs. recurve etc.... Having 2 targets shot from the same stake will always slow things down....


11.3.5.2

[Outdoor only] Two minutes are allowed for the first archer in the group. This time will begin when the previousgroup clears the target. Each following archer in the group will have two minutes to shoot his arrow. This two minutes time
limit begins when the previous archer in the group releases his arrow.


well there ya go ... been a while since I looked at the FCA rules ... you also got remember ... even tho its the same peice of wood in the ground ... differant target is a differant stake ..... 15 min wait is a good one then ... it could have been 24 minutes ...

[Bow Walker]

Long time since I looked at the 3D rules as well. Although, here on the Island, there is almost never a time that any rules are enforced.

Rangefinders are "allowed" only at "Fun-shoots" where scores are not posted.

Still - seems like long time at the stake(s) for a group of 5. I'll take note of what happens this Sunday at the Malahat shoot. A very informal shoot to be sure, but we'll see how long it takes larger groups to clear a target.

[swamper]

I have always found that this type of situration is very frustrating. An archer steps up to the stake, glasses the animal for a bit, then adjusts the sights, has another look and a final adjustment and then shoots and stands at the stake glassing their shot. To me it's pretty simple. By the time you get to the stake you should pretty much have th distance figured out as well as having determined the kill shot. All this can normally be done while waiting your turn. Get up to the stake, take your shot and then step away and admire you skillfull shot placement. Just get it done. And yes, I shoot a compound.

[greybark]

well there ya go ... been a while since I looked at the FCA rules ... you also got remember ... even tho its the same peice of wood in the ground ... differant target is a differant stake ..... 15 min wait is a good one then ... it could have been 24 minutes ...

Hey BZ , You and four Buds taking 24 min of glassing and dialing to shoot this target is acceptable ? Those who have to watch and wait 24 min have several options , have a beer , have a nap , use a washroom or read a Novel (pun intended) all the while not making a sound . On this occassion I fought the urge to curl up on the forest floor for a nap . I have attended a IBO World Ch and several large events as Williams Lake and Abbotsford and no excessive delays occurred . One squad in a fun event can`t get the Lead out . No wonder this 72 year old got cranky . LOL
All archers know the 3-D events are to enjoy and learn lets get back to these principles .
Cheers

[jrjonesy]

Been to lots of 3D shoots in and around the Okanagan and for the most part the delays are pretty minimal. The other weekend in Summerland, over 2 rounds we had 3 large groups let us shoot through....very considerate but unfortunately not the norm.

There are consistently some groups at shoots who have no clue that they should let smaller groups shoot through (if there isn't people right in front of them).

And why is it that some groups feel the need to stand around and talk by the target and point to it with their arrow (after all their arrows are pulled). Some people are totally impervious to the fact that people are behind them waiting.

[Bowzone_Mikey]

Hey BZ , You and four Buds taking 24 min of glassing and dialing to shoot this target is acceptable ? Those who have to watch and wait 24 min have several options , have a beer , have a nap , use a washroom or read a Novel (pun intended) all the while not making a sound . On this occassion I fought the urge to curl up on the forest floor for a nap . I have attended a IBO World Ch and several large events as Williams Lake and Abbotsford and no excessive delays occurred . One squad in a fun event can`t get the Lead out . No wonder this 72 year old got cranky . LOL
All archers know the 3-D events are to enjoy and learn lets get back to these principles .
Cheers
Hey Greybeard ... relax .... go have an afternoon nap .....

2 target stations ...the official rules state 2 mins per shooter .... You obviously had to know you were catching up ... so why didnt you just go back to the last station and empty your quiver back into it .,.. like the majority of trad guys do in a fun shoot ... to have some fun ..

just saying because you dont follow the rules to the letter ... doesnt mean everyone else has to do the same

fact of the matter is ... yes 24 mins from the time to the group ahead cleared target A to the time the last arrow of the group was sent hurtling toward target B is acceptible .....

what maybe not acceptible is your piss poor sportsmanship .... or maybe theirs for not letting your stick group shoot through (which is what I wouldve done).. or that group of 6 shouldve busted into 2 groups of 3 ... which is what the course marshal shouldve done ... But thats my opinion

[Bowzone_Mikey]

Pardon me that should have read 20 minutes ... based on 5 shooters ... I had 6 stuck in my mind ...regardless ... Greybeard should relax ... Its attitude like his that are driving people from the sport .... Attendance is begging to increase ... lots of families are doing it ... he pisses and moans that he has gotta wait ....

I am not one to punch out a geriactric ... but if you vocalized that attitude where people could hear you ... espcially new to the sport people ... you deserve a swift kick to the junk

[greybark]

Hey BZ , Sorry I hurt your feelings . LOL LOL LOL

[Bowzone_Mikey]

you hafta try harder than that to hurt my feelings ...;)

I am just saying ... its fun event ... ment to be fun ... try to keep it that way ...

BTW ... if you didnt wait at IBOs ... it mustve been one of the first ones .... Williams lake provincials and Abbotsfords ... are not large shoots .... you should go to Redding Cali this weekend ... you will see what a large shoot (generally more than 1000) is and what a wait time at a stake really is .... in the grand scheme of things ... is it really worth bitching about a 15 minute wait?

PG outdoor nationals were about 450 ... lethbridge 2006 Nats were about 425 ... I cant really speak for anymore than that but numbers typically around 350 or less ... I suspect however Vernon will be around 450-500 ... IBO that I attended at snowshoe mtn was upwards around 1000 .... Never been to Abbotsford ... but hear 350 thrown around ... WL provincials ... 150 or less both years ... Mother of all shoots in red deer cuts off at 450 ...

Just sayin......

[greybark]

Man I really hurt your feelings !!!! That is a great start to a pissing match , don`t hold your breath . LOL

[Bowzone_Mikey]

you started the pissin' ... Dont turn into the wind Hahahahaha

.... Like I said ... You hafta try harder to hurt my feelin'

;)

Its past yer bedtime ... ya cranky ol' man ....


Keep shootin straight ;)

[greybark]

BZ , you started the personal threats , misnaming me and you turned this thread into a Trady slant in spite of it haveing nothing to do with it . Earlier on in the first round we were held bac k for a similiar amount of time by two beginners , that 15 min was well spent .
Keep threatening me and I`ll turn on the full demand on the pacemaker and give you the busiest 15 min of your life . LOL

[fireguy]

Why was it that I don't go to these shoots again???
Wonder what would be said if I was the one holding up the pace with my super duper horizontal bow instead of those compound guys...

Supposed to be for fun isn't it.

[Bow Walker]

Pardon me that should have read 20 minutes ... based on 5 shooters ... I had 6 stuck in my mind ...regardless ... Greybeard should relax ... Its attitude like his that are driving people from the sport .... Attendance is begging to increase ... lots of families are doing it ... he pisses and moans that he has gotta wait ....

I am not one to punch out a geriactric ... but if you vocalized that attitude where people could hear you ... espcially new to the sport people ... you deserve a swift kick to the junk

Mikey - relax. He knows that a 15 minute wait isn't all that long. Probably was held up a few times and was just venting........

Also, I've been at shoots where groups of 4 compound shooters took way too much time to shoot a 32 yard target.....first they had to decide who's turn it was to shoot first, then each one just had to take a good long look with the binos, then look again with the naked eye (judging yardage, I guess), then adjust his $800 single-pin-scoped sight to his estimated yardage, then take another long look with the binos (just to make sure that the 10-X spot hadn't suddenly moved or disappeared), and then start their shot cycle, which in itself took almost a minute....and a couple of them had to re-adjust their sights because of second-guessing themselves on the yardage.

All together that group took almost 20 minutes at the stake from the time the first shooter took his place. Us compound shooters can be a tad skittish when we're addressing a target.

Recurve/Longbow shooters on the other hand just get to the stake, take a good look at the target, raise their bows and have at 'er. THEN they take upwards of 10 minutes to go behind the target an look for lost arrows......................

So it all evens out in the end. Besides, like I said, here on the Island things are laid back a looong ways from being highly competitive. It's not like we regularly shoot anything near a "sanctioned" shoot.

[Bowzone_Mikey]

I am totally relaxed .... the thing that pissed me off ... is that he comes here on a public forum to vent bitch and whine .... and drive newbies out of the sport .... he wants to bitch to the organizers let him ... but its totally un apporiate to complain on a public forum and therfore the this entire thread from post 1 is is wrong. Its this very attitude that does our sport no good .... I dont complain that every trad guy I know ... scores the first arrow ... and then empty their quivers into the target ... just to have fun.

oh and greybark ... go to google ... and type in greybeard... do some reading ... you will actually find that is was term of respect originally ....

[greybark]

Hey BZ ,Point (1) Did not come on here to bitch and whine . (2) did not come on here to drive newbys out of the sport . (3) Did talk to the organizers . (4)This is a public forum and the thread is correct and right . (4) You don`t know what my attitude is . (5) Again , bringing in the Trady thing is irrelevent .
And the big (6) Greybeard means nothing to me and as such don`t be condesending...
Bow Walker`s post puts all this in a proper perspective , perhaps you missed it .

[firstlight]

I am totally relaxed .... the thing that pissed me off ... is that he comes here on a public forum to vent bitch and whine .... and drive newbies out of the sport .... he wants to bitch to the organizers let him ... but its totally un apporiate to complain on a public forum and therfore the this entire thread from post 1 is is wrong. Its this very attitude that does our sport no good .... I dont complain that every trad guy I know ... scores the first arrow ... and then empty their quivers into the target ... just to have fun.

oh and greybark ... go to google ... and type in greybeard... do some reading ... you will actually find that is was term of respect originally ....

I respectively request you keep it nicer. My rhetorical question is do you really have to be so negative and complain so much on this post?

Please don't infer any ill wrought intentions on my part but bringing so much perceived negativity to this thread is kind of a downer.

Why keep picking on one guy?

[Bowzone_Mikey]

OK ...fair enough .....

The tone I took away from the original post (perhaps the reason I dislike text communication as opposed to face to face so much... that body language is lost) was that of a pissed off Greybark that he had to wait for other archers at a 3D shoot.

For the miscommunication I apolgize ...

Mikey

[greybark]

BZ Mikey , No need to apolgize , been there and done that . Obviously our concerns are for the betterment of archery and bowhunting .
Face to face and beer between us none of this would have happened . I look forward to that beer .
Cheers

[Bowzone_Mikey]

as do I

But yes there is a need for an apology .... I messed up the intent of the OP

[oldtimer]

Having been to lots of shoots with all different caliber of shooters I understand both sides in this thread. There are some world class shooters I have shot with and shot behind who I thought took too long ( well within the time limit according to the rules ) when I talk to them about it, I always get the same answer, their shot routine is an important part of their success and it doesn't matter if it is a shoot at the beginning of the year or that last shoot before the Nationals they always want the routine to be the same.
Having said that when I see more than 4 shooters in a group I expect them to let shooters through and when I see trad shooters like Ken coming up behind me I always let them through simply because they shoot much faster than we compound shooters do, even when they have to lookj for arrows :)
Have a good season everyone. Mike

[Bow Walker]

Yup - let the faster group(s) through and your own shoot will be that much more enjoyable. Who can perform at their best when pressured from behind? A lot of good shooters (like my brother) feel the "pressure" of a following group if they are close enough that they have to continually wait for your own group to finish.

We here in BC just aren't used to shoots where there are hundreds of participants. Shooters in the states typically carry light/fold-able chairs and snacks/water because they know that there are long, long waits at each target.



It's got a lot to do with respect, and good manners, and a sense of what is right.........

[The Hermit]

Geesh Redneck golf got nothing ont he real thing! I've had guys behind me hit right into us narrowly missing me and hitting the golf cart... funny that his ball somehow reversed its flight right back at them! ;-) Hey Greybeardbark don't get any ideas! ;-) LOL