Elk mortality and wolves

[shuswap kid]

I have a question about the effects of wolf predation on elk. Do elk populations always suffer with wolves preying on them or can a stable healthy population exist? An area which I used to hunt now has a healthy wolf population which it never did before. The elk population did a nosedive and less than a dozen now remain. I believe that the elk had little predation other than a couple of cougars in the area, which focused on the whitetails in the area. Will the elk populations rebound after becoming accustomed to being preyed on by wolves?

[CanuckShooter]

Not likely, the elk population will continually be under pressure from the wolf predation. As the food source diminishes so will the size of the wolf packs...hope this helps. CS

[Str8shooterbc]

There is no such thing as "healthy wolf populations" when it comes to any Deer populations including Whitetail or Mule Deer, Elk, Moose and Caribou. There is always too damn many or way to damn many.

[Walking Buffalo]

High wolf densities reduce elk populations not just through predation.

The constant threat of predation keeps elk near or in escape terrain, which may keep elk from aquiring sufficient nurishment for overwintering and embryo development.

This constant threat also keep the elk in a constant state of alert, increased stress levels. This also effects the elk's health and ability to reproduce.

High wolf density = High predation mortality rates, lower winter survival, Low cow:calf birth ratios.

It all adds up to a quick sink hole for the elk. Several Large elk populations have dropped by 90% in a matter of a decade.
Take the YaHa Tinda herd in Alberta for an example. The herd went from over 4000 animals to under 400 during the late 1990s to the early 2000s. The wolves here were being trapped and hunted, but not aggressively culled.

[REMINGTON JIM]

I have a question about the effects of wolf predation on elk. Do elk populations always suffer with wolves preying on them or can a stable healthy population exist? An area which I used to hunt now has a healthy wolf population which it never did before. The elk population did a nosedive and less than a dozen now remain. I believe that the elk had little predation other than a couple of cougars in the area, which focused on the whitetails in the area. Will the elk populations rebound after becoming accustomed to being preyed on by wolves?

Would this be the Adams Lake herd ? All elk -moose- etc suffer at the paws and teeth of wolves everywhere !

[Fisher-Dude]

Lots of wolves = wary elk. We've had them move into our "honey hole" some years, and we see and hear nary an elk on a 2 week trip. The year before, and the year after, the elk population seems "normal" again. Animals change their habits and their home ranges when the chance of getting eaten changes.

Undoubtedly, with the wolf numbers we now have throughout the province, we're seeing some of the effects that WB posted above.

Time to thin out the preds.

[arcadia]

Wolves must be controlled. Yellowstone is in bad shape. Wolves gotta go.

[Jelvis]

I guess with elk populations so low cuz of the wolves there was a proposal to cut back the elk hunting in your areas that you say was full of elk and now you saw only two elk where you saw dozens? I hope you told the game department about this catastrophic event before the last two get shot eh?
Jel .. write and e-mail MOE now b4 this turns to extinction .. you have all of us deeply concerned, what region and MU please? fd would know.

[Jelvis]

I still want those MU's you see this devastation in population numbers of elk in? I will get a hold of the local co's and bio's in those units, please?

[steel_ram]

Geeze, I surprised anything lives out there. Weren't there wolves 100 years ago . . . . and healthy elk herds to.

[Str8shooterbc]

Geeze, I surprised anything lives out there. Weren't there wolves 100 years ago . . . . and healthy elk herds to.

Grow up, they was lots of winter range and lots of Elk, Buffalo, Antelope, Sheep, Deer, ......

[steel_ram]

Grow up, they was lots of winter range and lots of Elk, Buffalo, Antelope, Sheep, Deer, ......


There is no such thing as "healthy wolf populations" when it comes to any Deer populations including Whitetail or Mule Deer, Elk, Moose and Caribou. There is always too damn many or way to damn many......

After that ignorant statement your telling me to "grow up"? Where's the boot up azz emicon when you need it.

[Jelvis]

A little sarcasm and whoa, some merritt to your history, years ago, people built houses where the deer and moose wintered. Not hard to figure it out. Still building and on deer and moose and sheep and elk habitat for winter range.
Wolves eat meat. Wolves are huge.
If your game is gone now because the wolf ate every one just about. You need to tell us the region mu's so we can pass this terrible news on to the one's who can stop this madness before these herds go extinct. Extinct is forever.
Jel .. If it's as bad as you say, tell us now. We will help.

[Str8shooterbc]

My Dad, 86 soon, tells me of seeing a few wolves. Growing up I never saw one. Two years ago saw my first ever in So. BC. I have seen 4 since. Figure it out.

[shuswap kid]

Would this be the Adams Lake herd ? All elk -moose- etc suffer at the paws and teeth of wolves everywhere !
No. this is an Alberta herd, Black Rock/ Waiparous herd. About 20k ne of Canmore. The wolves have move east about 10k and are now concentrating on a big bog loaded with Moose. I expect to move back to BC soon but would like to do what I can for the area.

[hunter1947]

Wolves take down the calf's when they can they target the adults as well top of the food chain for sure..

[wsm]

wolves have been eating these animals long before we were here, and populations went up and down year to year then and now. u want ungulate populations to be stronger? then let bolldoze all the houses with in ungulate wintering ranges. and remove the people

[hellojello74]

The herds used to go in swings, the differnece now also seems to be, like our timber stands and fires, that we want the supply to stay steady so we can harvest them, if we let them go up and down it would be to inconsistant to be good hunting all the time, throw in the effect humans have on the cycle with wintering grounds, increased pressure, access for wolves ect. The cycles really cant manage themselves too well anymore if we want to have consistent herd numbers...

[lucky1]

The herds used to go in swings, the differnece now also seems to be, like our timber stands and fires, that we want the supply to stay steady so we can harvest them, if we let them go up and down it would be to inconsistant to be good hunting all the time, throw in the effect humans have on the cycle with wintering grounds, increased pressure, access for wolves ect. The cycles really cant manage themselves too well anymore if we want to have consistent herd numbers...

This opinion is too reasonable for this thread. Please refrain form using logic or reason and tell us what you "feel" is happening to the populations.

[Ourea]

This opinion is too reasonable for this thread. Please refrain form using logic or reason and tell us what you "feel" is happening to the populations.

Brilliant....... love it.

[Ourea]

This is a good "bite" of information. Note the comment.... habitat enhancement did not help the elk population due to wolf predation levels.
Predator (wolf) levels can be argued as the number one factor in the decline of game depending on the circumstances. It can trump all factors.


"In Banff National Park where wolves and other predators have significantly reduced the elk population, 80 square miles of prescribed burns did not translate into increasing elk numbers. Despite an abundance of high-quality forage following the fires, burning actually reduced the elk population even further by making it easier for wolves to find the remaining elk. To reiterate, contrary to what most agency biologists will try and tell you, habitat and habitat improvements are largely irrelevant if the underlying problem is excessive predation or predator-mediated competition. And as we have seen, predator-mediated competition is more the norm than the exception."

Charles E. Kay, Ph.D. in Wildlife Ecology

[hellojello74]

This opinion is too reasonable for this thread. Please refrain form using logic or reason and tell us what you "feel" is happening to the populations.

I'm an engineer, I just can't help it, lol

[Ourea]

I should have included the definition of "predator mediated competition".
Interesting stuff.

"In systems with a single predator and single prey, the predator cannot generally take the prey to extinction due to declining return rates — that is the predators usually starve to death before they can find the last few prey. So while mountain lions, for example, can have a negative impact on mule deer, the cats can only take the deer population so low before the lions begin to run out of food and increasingly turn to killing each other. But what happens when there is a second, alternative prey in a system? Counter intuitively, the additional prey species does not buffer, or reduce, the predation pressure on the first prey animal. Instead, fueled by alternative prey, the predator takes the more vulnerable species to even lower levels. This is called predator-mediated or apparent competition and where this occurs habitat and habitat improvements are largely irrelevant, contrary to what most biologists would have you believe."

Charles E. Kay, Ph.D. in Wildlife Ecology

[Blair]

I should have included the definition of "predator mediated competition".
Interesting stuff.

"In systems with a single predator and single prey, the predator cannot generally take the prey to extinction due to declining return rates — that is the predators usually starve to death before they can find the last few prey. So while mountain lions, for example, can have a negative impact on mule deer, the cats can only take the deer population so low before the lions begin to run out of food and increasingly turn to killing each other. But what happens when there is a second, alternative prey in a system? Counter intuitively, the additional prey species does not buffer, or reduce, the predation pressure on the first prey animal. Instead, fueled by alternative prey, the predator takes the more vulnerable species to even lower levels. This is called predator-mediated or apparent competition and where this occurs habitat and habitat improvements are largely irrelevant, contrary to what most biologists would have you believe."

Charles E. Kay, Ph.D. in Wildlife Ecology

Thanks, I was wondering what that term meant. So many variables, so many opinions... I am sure they are all partly correct.

[Str8shooterbc]

Is this a Sierra Club member talking?? The reality is, the same as it was nearly 30 years ago when Paul Watson faked his trek into the North Woods because of the wolf cull in the north part of BC. This is no different than any predator - let the predator flourish and what we compete for - food - populations drop. Seals eat fish - more seals - less fish. Sea Lions eat lots of fish - more Sea Lions - populations of Oolichan completely collapse ( I watched 4 or 5 huge Sea Lions working off New Westminster wharf 15 years ago vacuuming up the Candle Fish - Oolichan - unimpeded viola!! No Oolican.

The Coyote populations are flourishing in Urban Lower Mainland - cats disappearing.

Wolves eat Deer Moose, Elk, Caribou, Whitetail Deer, Mule Deer - all Deer. More Wolves = a lot fewer Deer.

Has the Sierra Club or PETA member any contrary information?? Or would you prefer Euthanasia of human as well as bulldozing buildings to reduce the population so wolves can freely slaughter the Ungulate populations? I know PETA prefers Euthanasia of pet dogs over them being pets.




wolves have been eating these animals long before we were here, and populations went up and down year to year then and now. u want ungulate populations to be stronger? then let bolldoze all the houses with in ungulate wintering ranges. and remove the people

[Walking Buffalo]

This is a good "bite" of information. Note the comment.... habitat enhancement did not help the elk population due to wolf predation levels.
Predator (wolf) levels can be argued as the number one factor in the decline of game depending on the circumstances. It can trump all factors.


"In Banff National Park where wolves and other predators have significantly reduced the elk population, 80 square miles of prescribed burns did not translate into increasing elk numbers. Despite an abundance of high-quality forage following the fires, burning actually reduced the elk population even further by making it easier for wolves to find the remaining elk. To reiterate, contrary to what most agency biologists will try and tell you, habitat and habitat improvements are largely irrelevant if the underlying problem is excessive predation or predator-mediated competition. And as we have seen, predator-mediated competition is more the norm than the exception."

Charles E. Kay, Ph.D. in Wildlife Ecology


This is the elk/wolf study on the Yaha Herd ( from 4000 to under 400 elk) that includes habitat restoration burns and elk/wolf interactions.

http://www.carnivoreconservation.org/files/thesis/hebblewhite_2006_phd.pdf

There are other recent Alberta studies on this matter. In every case, habitat restoration ( burns) can actually create a mortality sink for ungulates in areas of high wolf densities.



Some interesting info in this report on wolf kill rates, population dynamics, dispersal tendancies.... .

http://www.fur.ca/files/Density,%20Demography%20wolf%20study%20Summary.pdf



There is no balance in a natural system. Nature is better analogized as a pendulum. Sometime the ball wings to extremes.

If people want a share of wildlife for food and recreation, we have to keep the competition in control.

[hellojello74]

There is no balance in a natural system. Nature is better analogized as a pendulum. Sometime the ball wings to extremes.

If people want a share of wildlife for food and recreation, we have to keep the competition in control.

Very well said! Pretty much sums up all the threads dealing with this subject right now.

[Str8shooterbc]

Once while on a helicopter patrol of powerlines north of Pr Geo we flew over a small slough across the right of way. In the centre of the slough was a cow Moose with calf standing in 2 - 2 1/2' of water. Around the slough, strategically placed, was 5 or 6 wolves sitting - waiting. No way were the Wolves going into the water - the cow Moose had the advantage. I don't know who succeeded - the Cow saving her calf or the wolves getting a tasty meal - but it proves to me that more wolves mean less Deer.

I also watched Coyotes in the West Kootenay take Whitetail and Mule Deer in winter. The snow surface often freezes hard enough to allow the Coyotes to run across the crust without sinking but the Deer get bogged down. Guess who wins?

I have never hesitated to kill a Coyote whenever I got the chance. Same with Wolf. Up north I used to see them on occasion. Now I see them with increasing regularity in the south.

The way it's going it will only be a matter of time before a human is killed by a Wolf or Wolves in BC.

[steel_ram]

Wolf's eat meat. Deer, Moose and Elk are made of meat. Imagine that? I guess we humans better stop killing the wolves natural food, or they might starthiding at Grandma's house.

[bugler]

A quote from one of our early North American hunter/naturalists, Walton or Leopold or one of those guys..."What, but the wolves tooth, has whittled so fine the fleet limbs of the antelope?"

In other words, it is the large predators, such as wolves, that keep the elk wild and wary. Without them the elk would be more abundant but less fun to hunt.

I do think that the pendulum has swung a little too far the wolf numbers way, which means more chances for you and me to kill one. Cougars also seem to be out of control right now. In the meantime, the deer around here have taken quite a hit while the elk seem to be down but not out. I have my fingers crossed that it is about to swing the other way in the next few years.

[msawyer]

No. this is an Alberta herd, Black Rock/ Waiparous herd. About 20k ne of Canmore. The wolves have move east about 10k and are now concentrating on a big bog loaded with Moose.

I have hunted sheep and climbed in this area since the early 70's. There never were many elk in that country until some were transplanted into the area by Alberta Gov. biologists in the 1980s. Not sure how they did or if the wolves are the issue or not... I've never seen one in that country and I've successfully hunted elk for over 30 years. But what I do know is that this area is within 1 hours drive of 1.5 million people (metro Calgary) and has been designated as an OHV recreation area - extremely heavily used by off-roaders, climbers, and other outdoor recreationalists.... Before we start assuming that the issue is wolves alone, lets understand the context and get our facts straight.

Best regards all

Mike

[shuswap kid]

There was a population of about 30-40 in the area till 2008. They utilized the area in such a way as to make them an absolute pain in the but to hunt. I knew where to go, and would have them located in a day. I got to know the two main herds quite well. I do agree with you that OHV use was and still is a problem, but to watch the herd's population drop so fast made me think that it was more than just OHV use as the problem.

[hunter1947]

The guide outfitters are real concerned on the population of Roosevelt elk on the east coast of Vancouver island north end I saw and was informed that the wolfs are taking the calf's down big time and then targeting the adults..

[shuswap kid]

It appears that wolves need to hunted more heavily. I have looked for info on wolf hunting and found little. I wonder whether someone could make a sticky for wolf hunting tactics.

[BlacktailStalker]

Odd they are concerned because it's easier to get a nun to **** than it is to get a trapline.
Nobody is utilizing what they are sitting on :mad:

[REMINGTON JIM]

Odd they are concerned because it's easier to get a nun to **** than it is to get a trapline.
Nobody is utilizing what they are sitting on :mad:

And that is a true statement !

[Phreddy]

When it comes to wolves, I say S.S.S. (no, that doesn't refer to StoneSheepSteve) Seen too many excellent hunting areas become barren because someone thought it would be a good idea to protect the wolves or reintroduce them in those areas.

[BlacktailStalker]

The real problem isn't the people sitting on the traplines not using them it is the people who allow it to continue to happen.

[bill]

Its time to start taking the wolf population DOWN again .yes the trappers need to get back into wolfing but is there a market for their pelts. Nobody does something for nothing..$$$$$

[REMINGTON JIM]

The real problem isn't the people sitting on the traplines not using them it is the people who allow it to continue to happen.

And thats another true statement ! BlacktailStalker is 2 for 2 ! Something to do with some Victoria people ! LOL RJ

[BlacktailStalker]

From what I understand, there is one head MOE for each of the regions it seems like and it is apparent they are on a different page as to what information they can or can't release, depending on what region you reside in, which makes it a coin toss as to whether a person can successfully research and begin to even attempt to obtain a line.
Just like harvest stats, trapping stats should be available or required to ensure the holders actually USE the line. If more people could SEE what isn't being used, it would be less likely lines sit idle, inadvertently being "hogged."
We all know, technically, a certain amount of revenue has to be brought in to keep that line in good standing but I would guess this isnt the case for many.

BCTA needs to ADDRESS and PRESS these issues if they are actually standing behind trapping and wanting to see it grow, instead of allow it to become a thing of the past, IMO.
For the amount of courses and $ required to take the course, there is little going on to ensure these people can even acquire anything afterwards, which is a crock of sh!t.

[REMINGTON JIM]

The goverment does not even give out info to owes the trap lines - its private !

[BlacktailStalker]

The goverment does not even give out info to owes the trap lines - its private !

Wrong. Things have changed, this is the problem.

[REMINGTON JIM]

Wrong. Things have changed, this is the problem.

Oh - i am mistaken ? last time i checked - which was a while ago - they would not give out who owned what trap line - this has changed you say ? Thks RJ

[BlacktailStalker]

Sure has. Trying to jump through the hurdles now and will post what I can as I can.

[REMINGTON JIM]

Thks - i appreciate the info - keep us up to date ! RJ