Halibut: The Bad News...

[IronNoggin]

Fisheries and Oceans Canada



http://www.ccnmatthews.com/logos/20081218-fishlo.JPG (http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/)
February 17, 2012 15:10 ET
Greater Certainty in the Pacific Halibut Fishery

VANCOUVER, BRITISH COLUMBIA--(Marketwire - Feb. 17, 2012) - The Honourable Keith Ashfield, Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, made an announcement today that will provide greater long-term certainty to the Pacific halibut fishery.
"Our government is making good on a commitment to provide greater long-term certainty in the Pacific halibut fishery for First Nations, commercial and recreational harvesters, and, most importantly encouraging jobs and economic growth in British Columbia," said Minister Ashfield.


Based on a thorough review process conducted by Parliamentary Secretary Randy Kamp involving First Nations, commercial and recreational sectors, and the province of British Columbia, the Minister has instructed the Department to make an immediate correction in the allocation formula for the Pacific halibut fishery. Under the new formula, 85% of the resource will be allocated to the commercial sector and 15% to the recreational sector.


"I want to express my appreciation for Randy Kamp's dedication to finding a solution that strikes a fair balance between the sectors and establishes a stable environment for the future," added Minister Ashfield.


The experimental licence introduced last year, which allowed recreational harvesters to lease Pacific halibut quota from commercial harvesters based on market value, will continue to be available. Improvements to the program will be made, reflecting feedback received from 2011 participants. Fisheries and Oceans Canada will move forward with regulatory changes to continue this market-based transfer mechanism for the long term.


The 2012 Pacific halibut recreational fishing season will open March 1st. Recreational anglers with a tidal water licence will be able to catch one halibut per day with two in possession. Fisheries and Oceans Canada will continue to work with recreational community representatives to identify monitoring and management measures that will provide greatest flexibility and season length while staying within their allocation.


Fisheries and Oceans Canada will continue to work with First Nations to ensure priority access for Food, Social and Ceremonial purposes, and to engage First Nations in pursuing opportunities for commercial access to halibut through existing aboriginal programs.


All participants and sectors have a shared responsibility for the conservation, stewardship and careful harvest of Pacific halibut and this will continue to be a priority for Fisheries and Oceans Canada.

http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/greater-certainty-in-the-pacific-halibut-fishery-1621493.htm

KeRist!! http://bestsmileys.com/frustrated/4.gif

[Philcott]

A$$hats.........

[REMINGTON JIM]

FAIR ! FAIR ! In whos F**KING opinion ??

[Whonnock Boy]

Ummmm..... where is the bad news? The rec sector got an increase of 3%. It won't mean a damn thing mind you being that the overall quota is supposedly being cut by a million pounds. I know, I know, we would have liked to see a larger increase to the recreational sector, but hey, it is better than nothing. My main concern right now is with the stocks themselves.

If there is anyone's quota that we should be going after, it is the FN's share. Correct me if I am wrong but, do they not get 17% of the commercial catch? That is a fare amount of fish considering their traditional numbers of harvest would have been a very small percentage of their catch. By all means, if I am incorrect with any of this, please educate me, and or re-educate.

[SUAFOYT]

Ummmm..... where is the bad news? The rec sector got an increase of 3%. It won't mean a damn thing mind you being that the overall quota is supposedly being cut by a million pounds. I know, I know, we would have liked to see a larger increase to the recreational sector, but hey, it is better than nothing. My main concern right now is with the stocks themselves.

If there is anyone's quota that we should be going after, it is the FN's share. Correct me if I am wrong but, do they not get 17% of the commercial catch? That is a fare amount of fish considering their traditional numbers of harvest would have been a very small percentage of their catch. By all means, if I am incorrect with any of this, please educate me, and or re-educate.

Therein lies the problem IMO. "it's better than nothing" is music to DFO's ears. Give 'em crumbs and they'll accept it. The FN issue while extremely important to everyone doesn't mean a thing except to the bureaucrats and in keeping non FN quiet. The FN catch if I am correct is 17% of the TAC. The commercial sector and sport sector get their %'s on the 83% that's left. While the commercial catch is recorded when off loaded, there is no such record keeping on the FN catch. So how does one keep track of the 17%. I'd say they don't. Anyone giving odds on the sport season being shut on August 15th of this year?

[IronNoggin]

From The Coalition:

We acknowledge that the Government has increased the recreational allocation but it is the very model for allocation that is the problem. Clearly they still do not understand the impact of uncertainty on the Recreational Sector or understand the significant contribution that we make to the British Columbia economy.

They titled their press release "Greater Certainty in the Pacific Halibut Fishery" but it is obvious that they do not understand the importance of Certainty and Stability combined with Expectation and Opportunity in the Recreational Fishery in B.C.

Our efforts (over the past 3 years) to inform fisheries on the minimum requirements of the recreational fishery, have fallen on deaf ears.

We clearly informed fisheries that the current "allocation model" itself was unfair and did not address the best use of a common property resource.

They rejected our call for a fixed number solution that would have provided real stability for the recreational sector during periods of low abundance and tremendous benefits to the commercial sector during periods of high abundance.

It does not provide stability for the guides and charter boaters in B.C.'s small communities up and means their season will likely end in mid-August.

They did not address the "No Is-Season Closure Issue" and based on this year's TAC, Recreational halibut fishing will likely shut down in early August…three weeks earlier than it did last year.

While they changed the allocation formula, they remain committed to an unfair model that primarily benefits the 200 or so commercial halibut quota holders who were gifted their quota and do not actually fish for halibut.

The decision simply confirms that in DFO's eyes, halibut is not a common-property resource owned by Canadians, but a private resource owned by 436 individuals.

Mr. Harper came to the Island days before the last election and made a promise to implement a solution to the halibut issue that was fair to everyone. He did not live up to that promise in our view.

This will create a gold-rush mentality that the quota fishery sought to end and encourage recreational halibut fishers to fish early during dangerous weather rather than waiting for the calm waters of July, August and September.

Not only Unfair, but ILLEGAL as pointed out by our own Supreme Court!
I guess The Dino figures itself to be above all of that? http://forum.flybc.ca/style_emoticons/default/banghead.gif

http://bestsmileys.com/puking/2.gif

[freezerfiller]

What a load! Harper living up to what he said.

[Whonnock Boy]

So how does one keep track of the 17%.

That is a good question. That question was also raised by the commercial sector in regards to the recreational catch. Valid questions on both fronts.

Don't get me wrong here. In no way am do I agree with the new terms. I am sure the commercial boys are none to happy about it either.

So, what are we going to do about it? I have a suggestion. What would be wrong with having a personal quota? My way of thinking is that 10 halibut a year would be plenty for a person. Let's be honest. There are lots of fisherman out there that take that of which they cannot consume. Their excess is usually given away to the praise of friends, family, and neighbours. I can say the same for Chinook. Who the hell needs 30 springs a year?

[SUAFOYT]

That is a good question. That question was also raised by the commercial sector in regards to the recreational catch. Valid questions on both fronts.

Don't get me wrong here. In no way am do I agree with the new terms. I am sure the commercial boys are none to happy about it either.

So, what are we going to do about it? I have a suggestion. What would be wrong with having a personal quota? My way of thinking is that 10 halibut a year would be plenty for a person. Let's be honest. There are lots of fisherman out there that take that of which they cannot consume. Their excess is usually given away to the praise of friends, family, and neighbours. I can say the same for Chinook. Who the hell needs 30 springs a year?

The fact that there is a procedure re the sport catch, while maybe a concern to the commercial sector is not at all the problem. The method that DFO is using is so wrong a 3 year old could see it.

Creel surveys are done during high season. The creel survey people show up at the dock same time every day. Why? That's when the sport guides come in. They check the guides, get a count of halibut taken and the number of clients on the boat. DFO then takes those numbers, does some kind of manipulation and presto we have a multiplier factor that DFO likes. Then DFO does a fly over of say Port Hardy or Tofino, does a count of sport boats on a number of given days, applies the multiplier and there's the sport take. Problem is the flyover has no way of knowing how many of the sport boats are/were targeting halibut. It's bullshit. The sport take in relation to the TAC is minimal but the dollars put into the provincial economy is huge. We need a total change re the methods but above all we need a Federal Government with the balls to strip predators like Jimmy Pattison of the commercial licences he now holds. Not likely to happen with the Cons in power. Think back as to who was in power in Ottawa when the East coast cod fishery collapsed. Just sayin'

[IronNoggin]

In my way of thinking... There isn't an icicle's chance in hell that they "caved under the political pressure of the recreational lobby" and offered up a pitiful 3%. Rather their legal team finally awoke to the FACT that the Supreme Court will side against them in any forthcoming lawsuit, and this is their version of a "peace offering" hoping it pacifies us and keeps us from investigating the legal option.

I am afraid (not!) that this tactic is doomed to FAIL! :evil:

Nog

[Salty]

A 3% increase isn`t correct mathematically. We used to get 12% now we get 15 so that`s actually a 25% increase over our previous share of the pie. Just say`n.

[Fishhound]

In my way of thinking... There isn't an icicle's chance in hell that they "caved under the political pressure of the recreational lobby" and offered up a pitiful 3%. Rather their legal team finally awoke to the FACT that the Supreme Court will side against them in any forthcoming lawsuit, and this is their version of a "peace offering" hoping it pacifies us and keeps us from investigating the legal option.

I am afraid (not!) that this tactic is doomed to FAIL! :evil:

Nog

IronNoggin, what is the next step, I know writing letters to show our displeasure with this is a no brainer, but does HBC, BCWF and other groups have something planned?

[pro 111]

Bad decision.
They should have stuck with the 88/12.

[Whonnock Boy]

I am sure the commercial boys are none to happy about it either.



Bad decision.
They should have stuck with the 88/12.

I already replied for you. :wink:

[dryflyguy57]

The sport lodges thank us all for being so blind to their business plan . Wonder if they are still working on a plan to count their catch . Whonnock Boy you are on to something .

[pro 111]

That is a good question. That question was also raised by the commercial sector in regards to the recreational catch. Valid questions on both fronts.

Don't get me wrong here. In no way am do I agree with the new terms. I am sure the commercial boys are none to happy about it either.

So, what are we going to do about it? I have a suggestion. What would be wrong with having a personal quota? My way of thinking is that 10 halibut a year would be plenty for a person. Let's be honest. There are lots of fisherman out there that take that of which they cannot consume. Their excess is usually given away to the praise of friends, family, and neighbours. I can say the same for Chinook. Who the hell needs 30 springs a year?
Exactly my way of thinking. Put all the weekend warriors that are out to feed the family on an anuall bag limit. Make sure they are well looked after. Anyone else that is in it for money should pay the piper.

[Whonnock Boy]

Exactly my way of thinking. Put all the weekend warriors that are out to feed the family on an anuall bag limit. Make sure they are well looked after. Anyone else that is in it for money should pay the piper.

I have already expressed my point of view when it comes to the "commercial sports fishermen" in other threads. Unless you have forgotten, it is my belief that those contracted out by locals, foreigners, non-resident Canadians are only providing a service for those allowed to catch their own fish, but do not own their own boat. You stay in your vessel, I will stay in mine. :wink:

[longstonec]

Ahh good. I was trying to post this earlier. Most Unconsionable decision since no coho retention on the central coast.

[IronNoggin]

A 3% increase isn`t correct mathematically. We used to get 12% now we get 15 so that`s actually a 25% increase over our previous share of the pie. Just say`n.

On the surface... Simply a perception matter. Intentional Smoke & Mirrors move in order to appear to be "doing something".

3% of the TAC represents less than any catch estimate estimation error ever made. The commercial operators' annual catch has never been within 3% of the IHPC quota. According to DFO estimates the rec fishery was over their "share" by greater than 3% last year even with an early shut down. It takes very little "tweaking" of effort or success rates to bump the CPUE in DFO's guesstimates by 3%, which means that effectively, nothing has changed.

DFO and the conservatives are masters at this game and knew full well that 3% would appease many but in function means absolutely nothing.


Bad decision.
They should have stuck with the 88/12.

Spoken with the usual "Let Them Play Golf" tone displayed by a certain sector last year? Does sufficient angst in the commercial sector exist over this latest move to challenge it in Court?

Personally you and I have little issue pro111. You represent the Working Fisherman to my mind's eye, and I have NO problem with what you do in order to maintain your livelihood. You likely know that. And you likely understand that it is the Absentee Fish Brokers that I do have an issue with. That, and of course DFO for their ongoing contravention of this Country's Highest Court Rulings.

This year's recreational fishery will be shortened yet again, NOT due to conservation concerns, but rather directly related to "Ownership" of the fish. The proposed leasing of quota from commercial quota holders directly implies such ownership, furthering the de facto situation that the vast majority of the resource "belongs" to a handful of private enterprises. Note the line in the release: "Fisheries and Oceans Canada will move forward with regulatory changes to continue this market-based transfer mechanism for the long term." It is obvious that DFO disputes the Supreme Court Decision which clearly states that private ownership of fish stocks (in the water) is ILLEGAL, and will carry on with this same contravening behavior for the foreseeable future.


IronNoggin, what is the next step, I know writing letters to show our displeasure with this is a no brainer, but does HBC, BCWF and other groups have something planned?

Keep the letters rolling, they DO make a difference. Doesn't hurt to toss in a few Letters To The Editor messages to your local rags either.
There are plans under development. Many options are currently being explored. Once a course of action has been determined, I certainly will let you know...

Cheers,
Nog

[IronNoggin]

...Does sufficient angst in the commercial sector exist over this latest move to challenge it in Court?

Just wondering if pro111 or any of the others from that sector wish to confirm (or deny as the case may be) the current rumor in this regard??

Wondering...
Nog

[bigslim]

Answer me this

The amount of guides getting paid to take rec. fishers out to catch Halibut has skyrocketed in the last few years.
Maybe that catch should fall under commercial?

I agree with 10 halibut a year
30 springs is to many also

[IronNoggin]

Answer me this

The amount of guides getting paid to take rec. fishers out to catch Halibut has skyrocketed in the last few years.
Maybe that catch should fall under commercial?

The suggestion that the guide / lodge operations are expanding, or seeking the same is in error. In fact, they too have suffered under the current economic climate, and many have been forced to downsize, more than a few even shutting their doors forever as a consequence. Most are fighting simply to remain somewhat viable these days.

The truth is the protest regarding allocation has everything to do with Ordinary Anglers. And the focus of their angst has as much or more to do with the process wherein DFO continues to openly support the notion that this resource "belongs" to a select few privileged Individuals, rather than the Common Property Resource the Supreme Court insists it very much is.

There is no difference between the Average Angler and those who cater to them. Nor should there be.
When looking at engaging in angling for halibut, the Average Angler has three choices:
1) Purchase, outfit, maintain, fuel, insure, etc a seaworthy rig capable of safely transporting them to the grounds and back. Pretty big bucks.
2) Ride with a Buddy who owns and operates the same as above.
3) Engage the services of a charter rig and let them look after all of the related expenses.
Rather easy to determine just which of those represents the least expense, and therefor the more viable option for many.

Guides do not keep the fish that are landed, they "belong" to those who caught them. And those folks bought the exact same License as everyone else does - a License to legitimize their angling efforts, and to hopefully take a little bounty from the sea home to relish.

What the guides do "sell" is the use of their boats (and all that entails), the fuel, the equipment, and notably their experience in locating the quarry. They do not sell fish, they market an experience.

Resident anglers, guides, and lodges - we are one group, that being the Recreational Sector. Taking shots and pointing fingers at who amongst us takes what & where doesn't change anything, but definitely divides the group. Such infighting and internal divisiveness is EXACTLY what DFO counts on (and often intentionally creates). Divided we FALL. This divisive tactic is employed regularly by those who govern the commercial sector. It is obvious that it is in their better interests to keep us as divided as possible in this matter. For the reasons noted above, it very much is a misnomer.

What the collective Recreational Sector is seeking is simply Stability and Certainty of season from year to year. Something quite unattainable under the current approach.


I agree with 10 halibut a year
30 springs is to many also

Personally I would agree with 10 halibut per season. That should be sufficient to maintain almost anyone's desires for this tasty delicacy methinks. Perhaps well worth investigating down the road, but for this year, "management" has closed the doors on this, and most other options. There remain a few, currently being explored in the hope of ensuring the season runs as close to full length as possible...

Cheers,
Nog

[IronNoggin]

Oak Bay Marine Group on Halibut:

http://www.vancouversun.com/travel/halibut+allocation+will+devastate+coastal+life/6203207/story.html

[silvicon]

Lawsuit it is!
Where do I sign up?

[gitnadoix]

What the guides do "sell" is the use of their boats (and all that entails), the fuel, the equipment, and notably their experience in locating the quarry. They do not sell fish, they market an experience.

So if I want to open up a charter logging buisness where I take people out into the crown forest to show them how to log one of canada's other resources so they can "experience" getting the wood to build thier own home, that would be A-O-K and I would not need to pay any stumpage or royalties as I am only providing an "experience".......get your head back out into the sun. If you make a living off of a resource that as you put it is owned by every Canadian citizen you should pay for that opportuniity, all the other resource users do......what makes the lodges and guides so extra special .......

[Spy]

So if I want to open up a charter logging buisness where I take people out into the crown forest to show them how to log one of canada's other resources so they can "experience" getting the wood to build thier own home, that would be A-O-K and I would not need to pay any stumpage or royalties as I am only providing an "experience".......get your head back out into the sun. If you make a living off of a resource that as you put it is owned by every Canadian citizen you should pay for that opportuniity, all the other resource users do......what makes the lodges and guides so extra special .......

Every angler needs to purchase a tidal fishing license,Who cares how or with who he gets out on the water to catch it!A guy from inland is not going to buy a boat to go fishing for one day!So he hires a guide to take him out to catch his fish he has purchased his license which entitles him to catch his limit!So in a nut shell, once the canadian citizen purchases a license he has already paid why should he pay again! Your logic makes no sense!:confused::confused:

[gitnadoix]

It makes sense to any one reading with out predjudice.......its not the fishers or the family out cutting trees to make a home......its the person who is making a living off of harvesting a resource owned by all canadians......that is not paying any licence fee like the logging companies do in stumpage etc.....

[IronNoggin]

So if I want to open up a charter logging buisness where I take people out into the crown forest to show them how to log one of canada's other resources so they can "experience" getting the wood to build thier own home, that would be A-O-K and I would not need to pay any stumpage or royalties as I am only providing an "experience".......

As long as those Folks you take out there have the proper Licensing (including the payments for stumpage & royalties) in hand, then by all means! A-OK. http://bestsmileys.com/thumbs/7.gif

For this is very much the case when any guide takes their clients out on the water. The License to fish, and retain fish, is very much in the hands of those who actually DO the fishing (and btw keep the fish).

Cheers,
Nog

[CanuckShooter]

As long as those Folks you take out there have the proper Licensing (including the payments for stumpage & royalties) in hand, then by all means! A-OK. http://bestsmileys.com/thumbs/7.gif

For this is very much the case when any guide takes their clients out on the water. The License to fish, and retain fish, is very much in the hands of those who actually DO the fishing (and btw keep the fish).

Cheers,
Nog

Do the guides even need a fishing license ( not talking guiding license)????

[gitnadoix]

The guides need no fishing licence as long as they do not touch the gear...

Obviosly I do not have the same view as some, to me it just seems that if you are gonna make your living off of consuming/killing one of Canada's resources you should be putting something back into the tax base, and I mean more than sales taxes, we all do that.

maybe we do not get a fair share of the total available harvestable quota for sport catch but I do not see why a multi-million dollar lodge sitting in some remote inlet on BC's coast should be making its owners who very much like a commercial licence that so many poo poo are no where near the lodge they are sitting in their Office some where making money off of othjer people catching the sport fish quota.....how is that any different than a slipper skipper?

[Spy]

The guides need no fishing licence as long as they do not touch the gear...

Obviosly I do not have the same view as some, to me it just seems that if you are gonna make your living off of consuming/killing one of Canada's resources you should be putting something back into the tax base, and I mean more than sales taxes, we all do that.

maybe we do not get a fair share of the total available harvestable quota for sport catch but I do not see why a multi-million dollar lodge sitting in some remote inlet on BC's coast should be making its owners who very much like a commercial licence that so many poo poo are no where near the lodge they are sitting in their Office some where making money off of othjer people catching the sport fish quota.....how is that any different than a slipper skipper?

Its simple! The lodge is provding Food, luxury accommodation, A spar for the wife,entertainment for the kids & most important a boat with tackle, & a guide! The guide takes out his clients with valid fishing license's to catch fish! The "stumpage" is paid for when the client buys a fishing license from the government! A service has being provided by the lodge & is paid for by the client! This in turn provides jobs for allot of people that live in the community! Sport fishing brings in tourists who want to catch fish,who in turn spend plenty $$$ in many communities that would not see a cent from the commercial fishing Industry!
You bitch about the lodges & some rich guy making money off "our" resource! What about all the slipper skippers sitting on their fat asses making money off hard working commercial fishermen trying to make ends meet?E-mail Jimmy Paterson & ask him how many of the 400 odd halibut quotas he owns! This is all going to come to a head & I think the truth will be told in the courts & allot of heads are going to role once the truth comes out on who owns what!

[pro 111]

Very well put. These guys just do not seem to get the fact that when you harvest fish for money its commercial. Plain and simple.
So if I want to open up a charter logging buisness where I take people out into the crown forest to show them how to log one of canada's other resources so they can "experience" getting the wood to build thier own home, that would be A-O-K and I would not need to pay any stumpage or royalties as I am only providing an "experience".......get your head back out into the sun. If you make a living off of a resource that as you put it is owned by every Canadian citizen you should pay for that opportuniity, all the other resource users do......what makes the lodges and guides so extra special .......

[gitnadoix]

" Sport fishing brings in tourists who want to catch fish,who in turn spend plenty $$$ in many communities that would not see a cent from the commercial fishing Industry!"

Boy have you ever dipped into the koolaid----these people you speak of would they be the ones who get off the plane in the main terminal in vancouver catch a shuttle to the south terminal get on a charter to the lodge, catch their limit in all species fly back to the south terminal catch the shuttle to the main terminal and then back to their country of origin. Other than the airport and the lodge they never touch canadian soil.....so where are all these millions being spent in the small bc comunities you speak of......


"This in turn provides jobs for allot of people that live in the community"

next time your out on a boat stop by a lodge sitting in the water near one of these small coastal communties you speak off.......98% of the employees are from Vancouver/lower mainland....they usually hire one or two local natives to appease the local band but its usually nothing more than lip service....

[22savage]

The current allocation is 85% commercial 15% sport . Guide$ and lodge$ take about 70% of the sport allocation leaving about 30% for the guy with his own boat who wants to catch his own halibut. Jimmy Pattison owns about 200,000 lbs of the 6,000,000 lbs of the commercial quota, the rest is owned independently. Don't worry about it boys the guide$ and lodge$ got your back and are looking out for your best interests . Do a quick google search on oak bay marine group and see for your self ,7 lodge$ and hundred$ of boat$ on the bc coast can you say big bui$ne$$

[Spy]

Boy have you ever dipped into the koolaid----these people you speak of would they be the ones who get off the plane in the main terminal in vancouver catch a shuttle to the south terminal get on a charter to the lodge, catch their limit in all species fly back to the south terminal catch the shuttle to the main terminal and then back to their country of origin. Other than the airport and the lodge they never touch canadian soil.....so where are all these millions being spent in the small bc comunities you speak of......

Tourists Don't only come to fish,thats just one part of their trip!they normally combine their trip with a tour of our beautiful country!Why would you fly halfway around the world for 3 days of fishing!If you have proof that all they do is fish & F-off,lets see it!I don't have any proof to say they don't! But I have had 20 odd friends come in from Africa ,UK & Australia who came here to tour & a fishing charter & stay at a Queen Charlotte lodge was just part of the trip!


"This in turn provides jobs for allot of people that live in the community"

Next time your out on a boat stop by a lodge sitting in the water near one of these small coastal communties you speak off.......98% of the employees are from Vancouver/lower mainland....they usually hire one or two local natives to appease the local band but its usually nothing more than lip service....[/QUOTE] Lodges In the Queen Charlotts employ plenty locals & even if they don't at least they employ people its called job creation, & that was my point!

I see you didn't have much to say about the slipper Skippers/Jimmy & how they are raping Commercial fishermen trying to make a living! These fat ass lodge operators started their businesses with their own funds, were given nothing for free, just hard work & perseverance to make a successfull business!

Whereas Jimmy & his Slipper skipper buddy's were, given their quotas for free on the backs of all hard working Canadians!

[Whonnock Boy]

Boy have you ever dipped into the koolaid----these people you speak of would they be the ones who get off the plane in the main terminal in vancouver catch a shuttle to the south terminal get on a charter to the lodge, catch their limit in all species fly back to the south terminal catch the shuttle to the main terminal and then back to their country of origin. Other than the airport and the lodge they never touch canadian soil.....so where are all these millions being spent in the small bc comunities you speak of......

next time your out on a boat stop by a lodge sitting in the water near one of these small coastal communties you speak off.......98% of the employees are from Vancouver/lower mainland....they usually hire one or two local natives to appease the local band but its usually nothing more than lip service....


Don't worry about it boys the guide$ and lodge$ got your back and are looking out for your best interests . Do a quick google search on oak bay marine group and see for your self ,7 lodge$ and hundred$ of boat$ on the bc coast can you say big bui$ne$$

It would be interesting to know the true numbers on how many big money lodges there are, versus small mom and pop businesses. Until someone comes out with the true numbers, we are all just drinkin' the Kool Aid.

Haha!! I happen to know a fish master at a very famous northern lodge. We have talked about native workers. From what I understand, it is only "lip service" because none of the local natives have been able to last a month, let alone a season. Lets not go there. My source is very reliable.

[22savage]

http://www.obmg.com/about/our-resorts/

[Spy]

http://www.obmg.com/about/our-resorts/

All Canadian Owned!Great to see A Canadian business doing well!

[22savage]

Boy have you ever dipped into the koolaid----these people you speak of would they be the ones who get off the plane in the main terminal in vancouver catch a shuttle to the south terminal get on a charter to the lodge, catch their limit in all species fly back to the south terminal catch the shuttle to the main terminal and then back to their country of origin. Other than the airport and the lodge they never touch canadian soil.....so where are all these millions being spent in the small bc comunities you speak of......

Tourists Don't only come to fish,thats just one part of their trip!they normally combine their trip with a tour of our beautiful country!Why would you fly halfway around the world for 3 days of fishing!If you have proof that all they do is fish & F-off,lets see it!I don't have any proof to say they don't! But I have had 20 odd friends come in from Africa ,UK & Australia who came here to tour & a fishing charter & stay at a Queen Charlotte lodge was just part of the trip!


"This in turn provides jobs for allot of people that live in the community"

Next time your out on a boat stop by a lodge sitting in the water near one of these small coastal communties you speak off.......98% of the employees are from Vancouver/lower mainland....they usually hire one or two local natives to appease the local band but its usually nothing more than lip service.... Lodges In the Queen Charlotts employ plenty locals & even if they don't at least they employ people its called job creation, & that was my point!

I see you didn't have much to say about the slipper Skippers/Jimmy & how they are raping Commercial fishermen trying to make a living! These fat ass lodge operators started their businesses with their own funds, were given nothing for free, just hard work & perseverance to make a successfull business!

Whereas Jimmy & his Slipper skipper buddy's were, given their quotas for free on the backs of all hard working Canadians![/QUOTE]

Spy you really need to get your facts straight the guys who got quota in the beginning of the quota system were not give their quota with out working for it .It was based on previous years catches and the guys who got this quota busted their asses in the derby style fisheries for years and invested their own money into gear and boats to do so, not much different than the guides and lodges . About 80% of the original quota has changed hands since the start of the quota system that means that they have paid big bucks to fish in the halibut fishery

[Spy]

Lodges In the Queen Charlotts employ plenty locals & even if they don't at least they employ people its called job creation, & that was my point!

I see you didn't have much to say about the slipper Skippers/Jimmy & how they are raping Commercial fishermen trying to make a living! These fat ass lodge operators started their businesses with their own funds, were given nothing for free, just hard work & perseverance to make a successfull business!

Whereas Jimmy & his Slipper skipper buddy's were, given their quotas for free on the backs of all hard working Canadians!

Spy you really need to get your facts straight the guys who got quota in the beginning of the quota system were not give their quota with out working for it .It was based on previous years catches and the guys who got this quota busted their asses in the derby style fisheries for years and invested their own money into gear and boats to do so, not much different than the guides and lodges . About 80% of the original quota has changed hands since the start of the quota system that means that they have paid big bucks to fish in the halibut fishery[/QUOTE]

Thanks Savage! Here I thought it was a freebie to buddy's!How do you feel about Slipper Skipppers? Do you think it is fair to the real guys out fishing their quota for them?
Thanks
Spy

[22savage]

Fish it your self or loose it . although there is a place for some leased quota for bycatch in other fisheries ect

[Spy]

Fish it your self or loose it . although there is a place for some leased quota for bycatch in other fisheries ect

I think we all see it that way!

[dryflyguy57]

So if I want to open up a charter logging buisness where I take people out into the crown forest to show them how to log one of canada's other resources so they can "experience" getting the wood to build thier own home, that would be A-O-K and I would not need to pay any stumpage or royalties as I am only providing an "experience".......get your head back out into the sun. If you make a living off of a resource that as you put it is owned by every Canadian citizen you should pay for that opportuniity, all the other resource users do......what makes the lodges and guides so extra special .......
Good post , couldn't agree more . Wonder what the loggers on this thread would say if we could all go sport logging and demand more every year . Cant't believe most here are standing behind Bob Wright's defence that they are just a hotel that rents boats . Iron Noggin and crew should spend more time worrying about the Neah Bay charter fleet , unrecorded catch stats from the lodges and unguided guests . They get a 25 % increase made from a political decision , no science here and they are whining big time . The total TAC is declining this year by the way . My prediction is that the lodges will be forced to rent or buy quota as they should . Come on brothers of the hook , quit sucking up the big lodges , they are not your friend . Would you also like to sell your excess fish from guests to Thrifty's ? Go sell the experience not the meat .

[pro 111]

come on fearless . say something!

[fearless]

come on fearless . say something!

Prefer to ignore ignorance

[22savage]

Matt, You are my friend so don't take any of this personally as its not meant to be but holy fack does this have me fired up! By suggesting that we should take a slot or a lower limit later on is ludacris. And only really benefits guides and lodges. We should be making no concesaions. Joe blow angler that really wants a hali or 3 wil go get it before the season is shut down. This once again proves to me its all about money. And has always been about to 2 commercial sectors fighting over the pie while the normal rec angler is left in the middle trying to do what's right. And to me what's right is becoming grayer everyday with moves like this. IMO If you promote the idea of a lowered catch after August and a slot limit to me you have bitch slapped the thousands of anglers that wrote letters and went to meetings because that only benefits a select few (sound familar). The guides and lodges. To suggest that 300,000 rec anglers should take a slot and have a lower limit later so you can book more trips is BULLSHIT IMO. If the guides and lodges want to make a statement fish pass the closing! Tell the dfo to take their quota system and shove it! Get off your wallets and sue someone. Do anything else besides this. You want the divide that everyone fears between our sector ? This is a great. Some interesting stuff going on with west coast fishing guides associaition are the guides and lodges really looking out for the average recreational fishers interest ,what do you think.

[22savage]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08zaTXVEgFs&feature=player_embedded

[Jim Prawn]

What is needed most is clearer knowledge of who is catching how many fish. If it wasnt for all the blatant poaching that goes on - by all sectors; commercial, sport and sport-commercial (guides/lodges) this would not be as big an issue. The part that pisses me off the most now that I am strictly a sport fisherman (and I did guide for 7 years so I understand that side as well) is that for the 1 or 2 or 3 times a year I might get out I'd sure like to be able to bonk two fish if I can catch them-which is often the case with halibut fishing; none or some. How about an annual limit for sports fisherman? I know 3 or 4 50 lb halis would be more than enough for my family in one year, I dont know what these guys that catch 10 or 20 do with them.
JP

[Jim Prawn]

Also, I cant believe this keeps bumping my "Halibut good news" thread. All this bitching and none of you have gone out and caught one yet! I'd go tomarrow but I feel a headache coming on.
JP

[22savage]

What is needed most is clearer knowledge of who is catching how many fish. If it wasnt for all the blatant poaching that goes on - by all sectors; commercial, sport and sport-commercial (guides/lodges) this would not be as big an issue. The part that pisses me off the most now that I am strictly a sport fisherman (and I did guide for 7 years so I understand that side as well) is that for the 1 or 2 or 3 times a year I might get out I'd sure like to be able to bonk two fish if I can catch them-which is often the case with halibut fishing; none or some. How about an annual limit for sports fisherman? I know 3 or 4 50 lb halis would be more than enough for my family in one year, I dont know what these guys that catch 10 or 20 do with them.
JP
you do know that all commercial caught halibut is recorded by camera or at sea observers ,then validated at the the dock and each fish is individually tagged (very little if any fish is unaccounted for in the commercial fishery)

[Jim Prawn]

I do know that, and I also know some commercial fisherman (as friends) and I know that the actual reports and camera positioning depend on how much the observer likes to eat fish. I also gather that the commercial boat has to pay for the government observer to be on the boat even thought they dont have to contribute and yet they still have to be fed. It all seems a little screwy to me, in all respects.
JP

[22savage]

Any discrepancy between camera ,log book or observers paper work means and audit at the fishermans the expense ,very little incentive to try and get the observer or the fisherman any fish as the risk just would not be worth it .

[Jim Prawn]

What I'm saying is, anyone can be bought. Including observers - helps the log books match up with the observers reports. And dont get me wrong, I dont even know where I stand on the issue other than the system is totally screwed. I have been the recipient of excess bycatch so I cant complain, especially when I know that most of that would have died anyways when thrown over board after being squashed at the bottom of tonnes of other fish and dragged up from the bottom. My point is mainly that there is so much "un-reported" catch in all sectors that it is next to impossible for the authorities to estimate who is caching how much.
JP

[pro 111]

Observers are on draggers , not halibut longline boats. There isn't anyone out there today that take an observer halibut fishing. We can rent the camera gear even for one trip.
Cheers!

[pro 111]

I would say they are not looking out for anyone but themselves. The average Joe stands alone . They should get a fair share and be able to fish year round. 2 per day 3 in possesion. Or 10 for the year.
Matt, You are my friend so don't take any of this personally as its not meant to be but holy fack does this have me fired up! By suggesting that we should take a slot or a lower limit later on is ludacris. And only really benefits guides and lodges. We should be making no concesaions. Joe blow angler that really wants a hali or 3 wil go get it before the season is shut down. This once again proves to me its all about money. And has always been about to 2 commercial sectors fighting over the pie while the normal rec angler is left in the middle trying to do what's right. And to me what's right is becoming grayer everyday with moves like this. IMO If you promote the idea of a lowered catch after August and a slot limit to me you have bitch slapped the thousands of anglers that wrote letters and went to meetings because that only benefits a select few (sound familar). The guides and lodges. To suggest that 300,000 rec anglers should take a slot and have a lower limit later so you can book more trips is BULLSHIT IMO. If the guides and lodges want to make a statement fish pass the closing! Tell the dfo to take their quota system and shove it! Get off your wallets and sue someone. Do anything else besides this. You want the divide that everyone fears between our sector ? This is a great. Some interesting stuff going on with west coast fishing guides associaition are the guides and lodges really looking out for the average recreational fishers interest ,what do you think.

[Jim Prawn]

Observers are on draggers , not halibut longline boats. There isn't anyone out there today that take an observer halibut fishing. We can rent the camera gear even for one trip.
Cheers!

Exactly what Im saying; there are halibut being caught unreported. ie Draggers with cameras and observers and no halibut quota bringing halibut home. Not singling them out just saying its next to impossible to estimate how many fish are being caught by whom.
JP

[22savage]

Canada’s Pacific commercial groundfish fisheries, commonly referred to as groundfish integration. Under this pilot program there is 100% at-sea monitoring, 100% dockside monitoring, individual vessel accountability for all catch (both retained and released), individual vessel quotas and reallocation of these quotas between vessels and fisheries to cover catches of non-directed species (retained and released). Seven distinct commercial groundfish sector groups; Halibut (L), Sablefish (K), Inside Rockfish (ZNI), Outside Rockfish (ZNO), Lingcod (Schedule II), Dogfish (Schedule II) and Groundfish Trawl (T) are managed as distinct fisheries but are integrated as they must reallocate IVQ between vessels and fisheries to cover catches of non-directed species (retained and released).

[Davey Crockett]

Somebody dropped a lock block with "thanks for the 3% back stab" painted on it in front of James Lunny's office door on Friday. Had me chuckling all day.

[Jim Prawn]

Heard they dumpeed three in front of the boat ramp at Cattle point too.
JP

[Johnnybear]

Canada’s Pacific commercial groundfish fisheries, commonly referred to as groundfish integration. Under this pilot program there is 100% at-sea monitoring, 100% dockside monitoring, individual vessel accountability for all catch (both retained and released), individual vessel quotas and reallocation of these quotas between vessels and fisheries to cover catches of non-directed species (retained and released). Seven distinct commercial groundfish sector groups; Halibut (L), Sablefish (K), Inside Rockfish (ZNI), Outside Rockfish (ZNO), Lingcod (Schedule II), Dogfish (Schedule II) and Groundfish Trawl (T) are managed as distinct fisheries but are integrated as they must reallocate IVQ between vessels and fisheries to cover catches of non-directed species (retained and released).

I was told very recently from the DFO that only 20% of the video is looked at. I know that is not at your end but at DFO's end. They do not have the people or time to look at every minute of video.

[22savage]

Spin it any way you want Johnny bear there is very little incentive for the commercial boys to break the rules any discrepancy between log book, camera or dock side validation means a full audit costing thousands of dollars . At least there is someone keeping an eye on the commercial guys. I have tried to educate myself on the how dfo monitors the commercial fleets on the bc coast and did know that only 20% of the tape is viewed,at least the tape is there to view if they find anything wrong with the numbers or by catch .But if voodoo math works for you spin it any way you want it .

[Johnnybear]

22savage. I edited my post to sound a little less "spinny" and a little more friendly lol. I was just pointing out that the system isn't perfect.

[22savage]

March 5, 2012
Ms. Susan Farlinger
Regional Director General
Fisheries and Oceans Canada – Pacific Region
The SFAB Executive Committee is pleased to endorse the recommendation of its Halibut Working Group that effective April 1 the Department of Fisheries and Oceans implement by condition of licence a “normal and under” possession policy in which recreational anglers for the remainder of the 2012 fishing will be allowed to retain one halibut a day, and two in total possession away from their place of residence, but with one of these fish being subject to a maximum size restriction of 83 cm. which translates to 15 lbs in round weight and 11.25 lbs in dressed weight.
The Executive Committee notes that this recommendation came forward following a series of electronic meetings with DFO staff in which productive dialogue was greatly assisted by an analysis of Draft Regulatory Tools for Recreational Halibut Management prepared by Pacific Region of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. This document provided the basis upon which the SFAB members of the working group reached the conclusion that the “normal and under” approach provided the best chance for a full season in which predictable opportunity was available to all participants in the fishery on a coast-wide basis, although at a reduced level.


FROM THE SFAB EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE

[22savage]

Great news for the guides and lodges .

[22savage]

March 5, 2012
Ms. Susan Farlinger
Regional Director General
Fisheries and Oceans Canada – Pacific Region
The SFAB Executive Committee is pleased to endorse the recommendation of its Halibut Working Group that effective April 1 the Department of Fisheries and Oceans implement by condition of licence a “normal and under” possession policy in which recreational anglers for the remainder of the 2012 fishing will be allowed to retain one halibut a day, and two in total possession away from their place of residence, but with one of these fish being subject to a maximum size restriction of 83 cm. which translates to 15 lbs in round weight and 11.25 lbs in dressed weight.
The Executive Committee notes that this recommendation came forward following a series of electronic meetings with DFO staff in which productive dialogue was greatly assisted by an analysis of Draft Regulatory Tools for Recreational Halibut Management prepared by Pacific Region of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. This document provided the basis upon which the SFAB members of the working group reached the conclusion that the “normal and under” approach provided the best chance for a full season in which predictable opportunity was available to all participants in the fishery on a coast-wide basis, although at a reduced level.


FROM THE SFAB EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE What a great idea ,Fish the first day trying to catch the largest halibut (releasing all the small halibut) then you can then fish the second day trying to catch a small halibut (releasing all the big halibut) how much halibut is going to go back to the bottom dead. But who cares cause now we got a longer season, this makes no sense to me

[kgriz]

Especially sucks for the guys down south....myself, Alaska is less than 20 km from where I fish. I agree that a certain # per year would be the fairest

[22savage]

Oak Bay Marine Group Reel Reports

Vancouver Island Overview



Halibut opened for retention on March 1st and local anglers were targeting the big flatfish rather than salmon. A fly over of our local area on Sunday showed approximately 110 boats fishing, but only 5 of them trolling for salmon! There were quite a few caught, with the largest one weighing 90 lbs.

[IronNoggin]

LOL! Comparing apples & oranges again "Team Prick" (rather fitting signature line you have there at times btw).

Why don't you inform us all just how many hooks are deployed on a single commercial skate of halibut gear? Seems to me but a single commercial rig can at minimum match the level of effort reported for Opening Day for the Recreational Fleet...


Great news for the guides and lodges .

Your obvious ignorance of the Recreational Fishery does leave me laughing at times. Anyone who thinks that particular option will not present some serious negative consequences for pretty much every guide out there might want to give their head a shake!

Certainly enjoy the spin efforts though... :mrgreen:

Cheers,
Nog

[gitnadoix]

cheese and crakers IronNoggin it was the sports reps that asked for the size limit thing to provide for a longer season allowing the commercial-rec fishers the ability to plan a longer season.....which was one of the issues that every one on here kept pineing about.......the opportunity to go out and experience the chance to catch a halibut....now you get that and its not good enough.....many say the the squeeky wheel gets the grease, eventually the squeeky wheel is recognized for exactly what it is......... just plain broken and time to be replaced......

[22savage]

Nog 1 hook or a 10,000 it makes no difference ,they fish to the amount of quota they lease or own then there done. Just because I don,t drink your coolaid you think I am ignorant of what is happening in the recreational fishery. I don,t think I am the only one who thinks the slot restriction for the second days fish was a great idea , as most of the recreational fishers I know were quite surprised that a slot was even put in place. This option had never been discussed or even made available to any of the recreational fishers I have talk to . Glad you like my signature line. Cheers 22 savage

[22savage]

Where was the discussion of this at local SFAB meetings where the general public/sport fisherman can attend and provide their input??? There has been no such meeting on this proposal. How did this decision get made with out public consultation with the sportfishing community??? Since when does the WCGA make decisions on behalf of all the sport fisherman in BC??? Maybe you could answer this question for us nog

[IronNoggin]

Since when does the WCGA make decisions on behalf of all the sport fisherman in BC???

They don't and they didn't. They were ASKED to provide comment on a series of options, which they did in a regularly scheduled meeting.

Letter from Gerry Kristianson SFAB Chair

8 March, 2012

Fellow anglers,

I thought it might be useful to provide some background on the SFAB proposal to experiment this year with what we are calling the “normal and under” possession approach to halibut. DFO has agreed that for the remainder of the 2012 fishing season, anglers will be allowed to retain one halibut a day, and two in total possession away from their place of residence, but with one of these fish being subject to a maximum size restriction of 83 cm. which translates to 15 lbs in round weight and 11.25 lbs in dressed weight.

Following the federal government’s decision to increase our allocation to 15% of the fish available to the commercial and recreational sectors, the SFAB Halibut Working Group was challenged with the need to find a way to live within a 2012 season total of 1,084,650 lbs. This was 138,855 lbs less than our actual 2011 harvest, which itself had led to premature closing of the fishery early last September. Analysis based on past harvest patterns made clear that continuing with last year’s possession limit of “1 and 2” made a mid-summer closure inevitable and a return to the more traditional “2 and 3” even less practical.

The Halibut Working Group’s mandate from the main SFAB board has always been that the primary objective is to maintain reasonable opportunity and expectation for as close to a full season as possible. We also were determined to avoid measures which seemed to favour one class of anglers, one part of the coast, or one group of service providers, against another.

The “normal and under” approach seemed to meet these needs. By keeping the total possession limit at “1 and 2”, the basic “opportunity” remained the same. However, analysis of the catch pattern in recent years suggested that by limiting the size of one of these fish to 83 cm (or about 15 lbs round weight), we could spread this opportunity over a longer period and hopefully to the end of the year. Anglers don’t catch many halibut in the Fall, but the chance to do so is important to many coastal residents.

Other options were also considered including:
 Reducing the possession limit to “1 and 1”, especially during the summer months. This might have kept us within our TAC, but would have greatly reduced both the social and economic value of the fishery by removing opportunity and dampening expectation during the time when most people are able to take their holidays and go fishing. Also it introduced an important element of uncertainty. Would anglers simply shift their effort into periods where there were more generous limits?
 Keeping the possession limit at “1 and 2” but imposing a size limit on both fish. This would have had the effect of further reducing expectation and increasing enforcement challenges

In fact, all of the potential measures, including “normal and under”, are experimental. Their likely impact is based on a series of assumptions that have not previously been tested in Canada. For this reason, it would be preferable to have a safety net, and the SFAB asked the department to try and provide the means by which we could move to move to the more restrictive rule of “1 and 1” if that seemed to be necessary in mid-summer to avoid exceeding our TAC and thereby prompting a premature closure, as happened in 2011. Unfortunately, we have been told that this kind of rule is not possible at this time.

The SFAB’s Executive Committee unanimously supported the “normal and under” recommendation of the Halibut Working Group. It also endorsed a suggestion that work begin immediately on the preparation of new educational material for anglers that will help explain both the rationale behind the new management measure and the contribution individual fishers can make to the sustainability of the resource through such things as the voluntary release of large halibut.

So I ask the tolerance of the recreational sector in accepting this year’s new rules. Of course, it would be nice to have more fish available. But Canada is obliged to live within its international allocation, and while that allocation was reduced again this year, the Government of Canada did respond positively to our sector’s request for a larger share of the domestic pie with an uncompensated transfer of access from the commercial sector. We should repay this gesture with a serious effort to stay within our allocation. Anglers should keep in mind that every fish counts and that every fish should be counted and measured. By sticking to the new rules there is an excellent chance that our sector will be able to keep catching and counting fish until the end of the year.
Gerry Kristianson

[Fishhound]

I understand the rationale behind the catch limits, but I wonder if there has been any estimate of how many released halibut will die.

Not having much experience with halibut fishing I wonder if the SFAB and other users have any catch release methods to share with the public to reduce these numbers

[IronNoggin]

I understand the rationale behind the catch limits, but I wonder if there has been any estimate of how many released halibut will die.

There have been but few studies on catch related mortality with halibut. The problem with several conducted by respected universities is the subsequent holding of the fish in small pens over time which likely increased the potential of death. That said, most of the current literature suggests a range between 2 to 5 %.


Not having much experience with halibut fishing I wonder if the SFAB and other users have any catch release methods to share with the public to reduce these numbers

Yes, they are working on a fact sheet with this very thought in mind. I'll post it once it becomes available...
Employing circle hooks, and waterline release with a gaff goes a long ways.

Cheers,
Nog

[IronNoggin]

The Importance of the Recreational Halibut Fishery

By Ralph Shaw - Comox Valley Record (?subject=Comox%20Valley%20Record%20-%20The%20importance%20of%20the%20recreational%20ha libut%20fishery)
Published: February 24, 2012 9:00 AM


As with all fishing issues there is always a lot of bureaucratic fog put up by government decision makers when they look at the real issues considering the value of recreationally caught halibut to the people of Canada – the common property owners of the resource.


I have just read a book called Oceana - Our Endangered Oceans by Ted Danson with Michael D'Orso. I submit it has some important messages for the people who manage and divide the halibut resource among recreational, First Nations and the commercial sector. The book has a world-wide perspective; while they use many American examples I suggest they also apply to our Canadian fisheries.


Recreational fishing, Whit Fosburgh, page 91:
"For millions of Americans, the mystery and anticipation associated with fishing in the ocean provides a very real and tangible connection with the natural world around us. Hunters and anglers were the original conservationists, fighting for public lands, environmental laws and game regulations to protect and restore the species they love to pursue. Today, saltwater recreational angling is a multibillion-dollar business, employing 400,000 people."


Gifting the lion's share of a common property resource (in this case Canadian halibut) to the commercial sector is a matter of public record. The federal government has just given 85 per cent of the international halibut allocation to the commercial sector. In simple arithmetic 436 Canadian commercial license holders, or just over one per cent of the fishermen, were gifted allocations to take 85 per cent of the resource. In the meantime, over 300,000 recreational anglers get 15 per cent of their own common property resource. This is not far off the 1% get 99% of sharing wealth on Wall Street that we hear so much about.


There is another interesting analogy that needs examining – long distance management of the fishery. Ottawa is about 3,000 miles away from the west coast of Canada and the west coast of Africa is a few thousand miles away from the European Union. The European Union has over-fished its coastal waters and is searching the planet for fishing grounds for its huge subsidized commercial deepwater trawl fleet.


They found pay dirt in the offshore and near shore waters off the west coast of Africa. Deals were made with coastal countries to fish their waters, and they were paid significant money for the privilege. In the meantime the local fishers who fished in small boats soon discovered that all they could catch were very few small, undesirable fish. One fisherman put it as follows as he pointed at his empty boat: "Now the only thing we catch is water."


There is a tragic message in this fiasco. There have been boatloads of starving refugees from the west coast of Africa seeking refuge in Europe through the Canary Islands. Not too long ago they made a subsistence living from their homeland marine waters fishing near shore in small boats. Note: the information for this paragraph came from pages 211 to 215 of Oceana.


You might suggest it is a bit of a stretch to compare our halibut fishery to the problems of the developing countries, but I suggest it is an appropriate analogy. I would also like to know who owns the halibut licenses that get halibut quota and how many of them are foreign controlled.


One thing is certain – under the current allocation the recreational anglers who fish the halibut grounds of the west coast of Canada will, by legislation, be allowed to only catch halibut about two thirds of the way through the season. Much has been made of the importance of keeping small coast communities economically viable. Recreational fishing through guiding and tourism are important components of this mix.


During the last federal election the Prime Minister, the Minister of Fisheries and our local Member of Parliament promised the recreational fishing sector that the allocation issue would be rectified. They have failed us.


Maybe central governments far removed from the coast feel comfortable in making these unjust allocations in the same manner that counties bordering the west coast of Africa justify their misguided allocations of a common property resource. If we lose the connection between people and the oceans that halibut angling provides, we lose a strong voice for conservation in coastal British Columbia.


http://www.comoxvalleyrecord.com/sports/140071923.html

[22savage]

The International Pacific Halibut Commission is recommending drastic cuts in quotas along the west coast for the 2012 season and possibly even larger cuts for the 2013 season.
For area 2B, the coast of British Columbia, the IPHC is recommending an overall quota of 6.633 million pounds, down from 7.650 million pounds in 2011, a decrease of 13.3 per cent.
Along the entire Pacific Coast, the IPHC wants the total harvest cut 19 per cent from 41.07 million pounds this year to 33.882 million pounds in 2012.
The recommendations are based on the IPHC’s studies of the 2011 halibut harvest.

The commission says that exploitable biomass of halibut continues to decline, reflecting lower recruitment (the number of fish that are becoming harvestable) from the 1989 to 1997 year classes and smaller size at age.

The commission says that while recruitment from more recent year classes is stronger but halibut size at age continues to be much lower than that seen in the recent period (1997-1998) of historic high biomass, so these year classes are recruiting to the exploitable biomass more slowly than past year classes.

The IPHC FAQ explains this in easier terms as
For a simple question, this has a bit of a complicated answer. The simple answer is, they are still here. Or at least the same age fish are still here. For the past 15 years or so, halibut growth rates have been depressed to levels that haven’t been seen since the 1920′s. Both females and male halibut have the potential to grow rapidly until about age 10, about 2 inches per year for males and 2.5 inches for females. Thereafter, females have the potential to grow even faster, while males generally would slow down relative to female growth. Growth rates for these larger fish in the last 10 or so years are more on the order of one inch or less per year. This translates into a much smaller fish at any given age. There was a dramatic increase in halibut growth rates in the middle of this century, especially in Alaska. Sometime around 1980, growth rates started to drop, and now Alaska halibut of a given age and sex are about the same size as they were in the 1920′s. For example, in the northern Gulf of Alaska, an 11-year-old female halibut weighed about 20 pounds in the 1920′s, nearly 50 pounds in the 1970′s, and now again about 20 pounds. The reasons for both the increase and the decrease are not yet known but may be tied to increased abundance of other species, such as arrowtooth flounder, and availability of food supply
Steve Hare, the commission’s chief scientist told the Alaska Dispatch that scientists are becoming uncomfortable with the model they are using to calculate the biomass because “season after season the numbers of dead fish don’t add up correctly.”

Hare told the Alaska Dispatch that the commission is considering a new model that could mean “staggering cuts of 63 percent in the halibut fisheries to a mere 15 million pounds” in 2013.

Halibut quotas have been cut half since 2001 and the Alaska Dispatch says: “the implications of such a cut are huge — not only for fishermen of all sorts, but for small coastal communities from British Columbia north through Alaska, and for consumers.”

The quotas will be finalized and confirmed at the IPHC annual meeting in Anchorage, Alaska, during January 24-27, 2012.

Maybe this will help some understand why the quota,s have dropped by 50% for all user groups . Only one group got an increase in quota this year and yet it is portrayed as bad news? Cheers 22 savage

[guest]

It's a BRUTAL regulation as far as a Mainlander is concerned ...... the bucks we spend for LITTLE RETURN ! YOU BC TOURISM IS ABOUT TO TAKE ANOTHER DUMP !

I SPEND THOUSANDS of dollars towards my recreational fishing and what it takes to be able to do it. From Mechanics, to dock staff, tackle shops, hotels etc etc etc.

for the past couple seasons it's having to attempt to go offshore TWICE because I can ONLY retain 1 per day, 2 poss. total ......... heck even lucky if I can get off shore once weather wise .......... I used to think of releasing the real biggies and retaining the 25 to 50 lb hallies. WELL NO MORE ! I will NOW TAKE THAT BIG SPAWNER THE SFAB and DFO want me kill ......... who the hell are these people making regulation like this. If I kill a 100 lb. the 1st day and the wind blows me off who cares, I got my spawner ... my 100lb'er they wanted .... now I don't need to spend another 200 bucks in gas, and tackle, bait for that little 15 pound - 83 cm chicken. PATHETIC !!

Sure I saw the 85 and 15 thing, expected more though in favor of the rec. fisher though ............ certainly did not expect to get blind sided again with such a small 83 cm. restriction....... idiots! AND LEAVING 1 PER DAY INSTEAD OF YOUR 2 per day and 2 Possession .....

CT

[IronNoggin]

... Only one group got an increase in quota this year and yet it is portrayed as bad news?

Yes 22, it very much is considered "bad news".

Why you might ask?

DFO has intentionally created an unjust fishery, a battle between sectors and given ownership to a resource that is legally not owned. DFO sold/gifted an opportunity to own a share in a public fishery that they had no right nor lawful tenure to offer for ownership.

Therein lies the thrust of it. The issue isn't so much focused on "who is afforded what" under the current system of so-called "management", rather it is the very system itself. This system is broken, unlawful and immoral.

DFO was/is mandated to manage the fish "for the benefit of it's rightful owners" that being ALL Canadians. DFO does NOT own the fish and never did. Our highest Court in the Land has repeatedly reminded them of that fact, yet in their arrogance they continue to ignore this ruling. The ITQ system under it's current manifestation which provides de facto "ownership" of the resource to a limited few is in fact unlawful according to this same ruling.

There is no argument with the Honest Working Fishermen who earnestly ply their trade at sea. They are as screwed by the system as much, or even more so than the Recreational Sector.

There very much is an argument with the system that allows non-fishing quota holders to reign Lord over both the Working Fishermen and the Recreational Anglers in the name of profit. An argument that when (for when is the word) afforded scrutiny under the Test Of Law WILL Fail to meet the criteria of legality.

You can go on citing the "need" to feed the masses that do not fish, however that argument is clearly a misnomer considering the vast majority of the catch is exported:

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z53/glgfishing/2012HalibutAllocation.jpg

The actual "need" is obviously ever increasing profits.

You can also continue to note that the quota which was "gifted" to the commercial sector has changed hands for economic consideration many times since the original sell-out. Again a mute point considering less than 50% of the holders ever actually fish. It is obviously much more comfortable (and profitable) to lease "ownership" at exorbitant rates than it is to actually work for a living.

You can, as you have above, point to periods of low abundance as the root of the problem faced by all. But that really isn't the case either. It is entirely the system.

DFO has FAILED in their mandate, and roguishly operates outside of the Law by extending ownership of a resource they themselves cannot, under Canadian Law, own themselves. THAT is the issue. THAT is the problem. And THAT is indeed VERY "Bad News".

The problem is NOT the Commercial Sector. Those that actually work the fishery have every much right as any other Canadian to pursue their aspirations in the fishery. Those that do not fish, yet hold ownership of the resource as bestowed by DFO are but a symptom of the REAL problem. Again, that being DFO assuming ownership, and illegally bestowing the same at severe cost to the rightful and legal owners of the resource - the Canadian Public at large.

There has been a lot of mud-slinging between the sectors involved. There have been many many points and arguments of contention raised that are but tangential to the underlying and real issue of concern. A lot of wasted energy IMHO.

The two sectors involved must eventually recognize that those in the supposed "opposite camp" really are not so, and that they are much closer than most would care to admit. And they should reasonably & collectively understand that the real issue is DFO's continued insubordination of Canadian Law in their arrogant assumption of ownership and the granting thereof. Rather than buying in to DFO's open tactic of doing every and anything possible to encourage and sustain the animosity between the two groups involved.

Eventually I believe this will occur. Eventually I believe the two groups can and will unite against this ongoing injustice. Sadly though, I also believe that under our current government, it will likely take Legal Action to force DFO into compliance. I, for one, fervently hope that when it comes down to that (for it surely will) the two Sectors are sitting on the same side of the table...

Cheers,
Nog

[lorneparker1]

Please remember the SFAB meeting Mar 21 7pm at Sheraton IN VICTORIA>

If you are a rec fisherman, and dont like whats been going on PLEASE BE THERE AND HAVE YOUR VOICES HEARD>

THIS IS THE ONLY WAY!!

Dont let other people speak for you!

Lorne

[22savage]

Well nog I guess you could say that about all fisheries that have moved to a quota system but the main thrust seems to be halibut .I would like to fish halibut ,salmon, prawns ,black cod, crab, ling cod ,yellow eye from Feb 1 to Dec 31 but I realize that's not going to happen. How would you feel if they took your commercial salmon licence away and gave it to some one else with no compensation to you. Maybe we should just scrap all the gifted commercial fisheries(at one point almost all commercial licences were free or cost very little to purchase) and give it all to the right full owner's . You know who might be first in line and it may not be us and I don't think any of us would be doing much sport fishing with out paying a premium to do so. Does a 100% of the salmon that you catch commercially stay in Canada or is a good portion of it exported, and are Canadians needs being met first ? Why just the halibut lots of other species of fish are being leased why not go after all the quota fisheries at the same time . Cheers 22 savage

[lorneparker1]

Whats funny to me, is how the guides and lodges always talk about how the quota was gifted and they are making money for free and that those guys are turning a profit yet not actually fishing it. So if all the quota was given back to the rec sector, the guides and lodges could suck up even more of the quota(for free) most of which is sucked up by the big lodges, owned by people who dont fish it.

I can see clearly now the rain is gone.

Lorne

[gitnadoix]

So one person post some information that some biologist are very concerned with the halibut stock and there may be even more restrictions to come in the future, and yet every one still harps on about how they want to keep taking taking all that they possibly can and even one says he is gonna show them by killing only large females........what a short sighted self centered selfish point of view.......be the one who kills the last halibut.......there's something to be proud of...its prety clear that its not about the experience its all about harvest meat nothing more nothing less....

[IronNoggin]

... How would you feel if they took your commercial salmon licence away and gave it to some one else with no compensation to you.

LOL! Not a real comparison and you know it. More waste-of-time tangential posturing. However that said, I will entertain your query for the moment:

Trolled Salmon on the WCVI are not managed under the ITQ system, the fleet (Area G) strongly apposes such a move as they rightfully consider it not to be in their better interest. Not buying in allows the Owner Operator system to function, with the result that vast quantities of quota do not end up in the hands of speculators such has occurred in so many other fisheries. DFO of course completely dislikes this stance, as that doesn't mesh with their ongoing agenda. And so, Area G is the recipient of as many negative hits that DFO can come up with to "punish" them. Today's "quotas" are a running joke, as pretty much every single soul involved in that fishery has to secure at least one other form of employ simply to make ends meet.

That aside, chinook (the mainstay of the Area G Fleet) is a recognized "Recreational Priority" fish. The pattern for distribution of the TAC is firmly established as a consequence. And while many in the commercial system may question the "fairness" of that application, it does appear to offer a rather generous amount of access for anglers to the Public Resource.

Ever check the current listings for an Area G License? Those that do trade are done so at such a small rate the sellers are already basically "giving it away".

NO comparison with the situation with halibut. Tangential.


Why just the halibut lots of other species of fish are being leased why not go after all the quota fisheries at the same time.

One step at a time. Halibut presents (at this point) the largest fishery with competing interests, and as such, has become the focal point for progressive changes to the system. There is little or no competing interests regarding many of the other species "managed" via the ITQ system, thus there is little interest in pursuing alternative methods for their management. Given the encroachment of the said system into prawns, crabs and more, methinks that will likely change in the foreseeable future.

With today's fleet capacity, there is the need for a management system that throttles that capacity back to the point the resources can withstand the ongoing effects of fishing efforts. And a quota based system is indeed the obvious way to go. That said, it isn't the quotas themselves that are under scrutiny, rather it is the SYSTEM of quota management which DFO created which is so. Allowing non-fishing "speculators" to own access flies in the face of reason, flies in the face of legality, and flies in the face of DFO's own mandate. Again, for the umpteenth time, therein lies the thrust of the matter.

In the 1970's the then Fisheries Minister, one Romeo LeBlanc (under Trudeau's government of the day) was faced with rationalizing the fisheries of the East Coast. What he came up with then (and is still in effect today) is termed The Owner Operator and Fleet Separation Policies. These in effect ensure that the quotas are NOT held as some sort of stock market commodity by those with the deepest pockets, rather by those who actually fish them. One can speculate as to why they were not emplaced on the West Coast (Perhaps this was due to LeBlanc being from Atlantic Canada and not all that conversant with fisheries out here, perhaps due to Trudeau's open disdain for the West, or perhaps simply oversight). Regardless of how we came to not be included in what DFO was touting as "the way to go", one of the more obvious results was (and is) the rise of Fish Brokers holding vast quantities of quota without ever having to lift a finger to fish themselves. Problematic indeed for all who actually do fish!

Today, East Coast fishermen face a challenge to those underlying policies in the form of government “modernization of fisheries management”.
Those whose livelihoods in the East that are now under a direct threat should the Owner Operator and Fleet Separation Policies be repealed by the Harper government are incensed! Rightfully so IMHO. In their inane drive to consolidate maximum wealth to the hands of their privileged friends, the conservatives have apparently forgotten the well being & rights of the average wage earner coast wide.

The immediate future will be very interesting as this story unfolds. Already there is talk of an impending law suit to force DFO to stick with the proven, working model that currently exists in Eastern Canadian Fisheries. That, and the eventual outcome of any such action WILL have implications for what occurs out here. For that reason, I wish them All The Best in their pursuit, and very much hope they are able to carry the day!! http://bestsmileys.com/thumbs/7.gif

Methinks that the answer already lies before us. The model based on the Owner Operator and Fleet Separation Policies has worked in the favor of actual fishermen approaching four decades now back east. It is a Canadian Template that could very easily be adapted to West Coast fisheries, and could prove to be of substantial benefit to those that actually fish, whether commercially or recreationally in BC's waters.


..its prety clear that its not about the experience its all about harvest meat nothing more nothing less....

For some, perhaps. For a great many others, it is much more so dealing with the inane and illegal form of resource "management" driven by a Rogue Ministry who honestly perceive they are accountable to no-one but themselves.

Cheers,
Nog

[drakfero]

Halibut hatcheries.. they should have one part filled with halibut instead of salmon , they would make money , halibut would be cheaper in stores , people could go ocean fishing with better results , more people would have job as guiders. Same as in Norway(working with salmon allready)

[22savage]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/atlantic-fishermen-fear-ottawa-plans-to-take-away-their-livelihood/article2363816/

[Spy]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/atlantic-fishermen-fear-ottawa-plans-to-take-away-their-livelihood/article2363816/

Interesting read Savage!Looks like there are going to be lots of upset fishermen in the near future!

[dryflyguy57]

I think all fishermen regardless of sector will have reason to be upset about the resource . As I have said before Divide and Conquer is what DFO is doing to us all . Oh and YES the sky is falling !

[22savage]

Interesting read Savage!Looks like there are going to be lots of upset fishermen in the near future! It,s been going on for years on this coast, most of the drag and seine fleets are controlled by large company,s (51% company - 49% fisherman. One of the reasons this has happened is because it is very hard to access money from the banks to purchase licences that are in some cases worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. You better have some deep pockets (collateral) if your going to purchase some of these licences (prawn ,halibut ,black cod ,trawl and some crab licences to mention a few)

[22savage]

RECREATIONAL - Fin Fish (Other than Salmon)

Fishery Notice - Fisheries and Oceans Canada

Subject: FN0192-RECREATIONAL - Fin Fish (Other than Salmon) - Halibut: Change to size of fish within possession limit

Coastwide

Effective at 00:01 hours April 1, 2012 the daily limit for halibut is one (1)
and the possession limit for halibut is two (2), of which only one may be
greater than 83 cm.

The Department will be issuing a fishery notice shortly with steps anglers
should take to ensure that their fish can be shown to be within the size limit.


FOR MORE INFORMATION:

Contact: Tamee Karim 666-9033 or Devona Adams 604-666-3271.


Fisheries and Oceans Canada Operations Center - FN0192
Sent March 14, 2012 at 10:41
Visit us on the Web at http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca Looks like it,s a done deal

[22savage]

Longline off Victoria spells trouble for local anglers
Just wanted to bring to everyones attention ,the double standard are friends at DFO have showen us they want us to take a size restriction from april 1st until ? but yet they have stabbed us in the back yet again by allowing a local Halibut boat to fish this area ,well some would say weve seen this before no big deal well its a biggy ,In which he is allowed to harvest 65,000 lbs in this little area, unfricken beleivable he has 11 Skates of gear totaling almost 11,000 hooks ,this will destroy this vital fishery ,,if this wasn't pre-empted i don't know what is ,this paticular boat is well known as is the owner ,the Commies are sending us a message very loud and very clear ,we need Dfo to hear are feelings loud and clear on this issue Wed night, we are getting f--cked up the ass everywherer we turn enough is enough ( Found this on another site)

[Riverbc]

http://www.bcseafood.ca/PDFs/fisheriesinfo/fishery-pacific-halibut.pdf