Responsible Wildlife Management Strategy

[Walksalot]

I phoned the local Wildlife Biologist with concerns of where logging was to take place in this area and the impact on the animals in that area. I was surprised to learn that local Wildlife Biologists are not consulted for input into or allowed to have input into where logging companies harvest timber. Things such as habitat protection and standing timber left for the wildlife to hide in should include input from Fish and Wildlife. I wonder if logging companies would take wildlife into consideration the same way Fish and Wildlife would? How could we have a responsible Wildlife Management Strategy without input from people in the Fish and Wildlife section?

[KodiakHntr]

I wonder if logging companies would take wildlife into consideration the same way Fish and Wildlife would? How could we have a responsible Wildlife Management Strategy without input from people in the Fish and Wildlife section?

Short answer, YES. Foresters DO take wildlife very seriously. As a forester a significant portion of my time is spent on ensuring wildlife needs are met.

[Devilbear]

This has always been the case in BC, from the early days of "whisltle punks" and "steam donkeys" and industry with it's cooperative union, calls the shots. The NDP governments were a LITTLE better, but, the big-bellied, loudvoiced union bosses, such as "Badmouth Jack" Munro, effectively controlled that and were industry harlots where environmental issues are concerned.

An example, is the widespread "stand treatment" which sprays herbicidal chemicals over vast tracts of BC and does anyone here wonder if this may have something to do with the relatively low grouse numbers we have seen since the early '90s?

Fish and wildlife are the LAST priority with governments in BC and will continue to be, given the apathy of most citizens, hunters-anglers included.

[KodiakHntr]

I think a lot of guys get upset about what they perceive to be mass destruction of "their" favorite area because a forest company moves into an area that was developed at some point in the past. Logging in one valley isn't going to decimate the deer population across the landscape for eternity.

And incidentally, everyone has the opportunity to provide input into what and where a logging company operates. The consultation process is quite involved and comprehensive and public notification of when it occurs is manditory.

[KodiakHntr]

This has always been the case in BC, from the early days of "whisltle punks" and "steam donkeys" and industry with it's cooperative union, calls the shots. The NDP governments were a LITTLE better, but, the big-bellied, loudvoiced union bosses, such as "Badmouth Jack" Munro, effectively controlled that and were industry harlots where environmental issues are concerned.

An example, is the widespread "stand treatment" which sprays herbicidal chemicals over vast tracts of BC and does anyone here wonder if this may have something to do with the relatively low grouse numbers we have seen since the early '90s?

Fish and wildlife are the LAST priority with governments in BC and will continue to be, given the apathy of most citizens, hunters-anglers included.

Misinformation being spread once again.......

Perhaps when you were relevant (if there was a point in time where that applied) that was the case with gov't/industry relations, but it certainly isn't the case now. And hasn't been for coming up on two decades now....

Wildlife is a very important component of everything a forester does, and for anyone here to insinuate that isn't the case is a gross injustice to everything the ABCFP stands for......

[Devilbear]

Short answer, YES. Foresters DO take wildlife very seriously. As a forester a significant portion of my time is spent on ensuring wildlife needs are met.

Dave, two points here without needless animosity between us. The first is that I thought that you were a "Registered Forest Technologist" not a "Registered Professional Forester", have you upgraded to RPF status?

This bears on the more important point that industry, for whom you work, as I know from your previous posts, that you consider BCFS staff to be over-paid and not very effective or productive, really controls policy in BC forestry and always has. So, a field worker like you will only do what he/she is told to and that will not always address the issue that "Walksalot" has raised here.

I have always believed that the government staff should be totally and primarily involved with any resource management activity in BC and industry should not have policy influence. Actually, we need MORE BCFS and F&W staff and they should make the decisions and then industry staff can implement them, while monitored by the government people.

[Devilbear]

Misinformation being spread once again.......

Perhaps when you were relevant (if there was a point in time where that applied) that was the case with gov't/industry relations, but it certainly isn't the case now. And hasn't been for coming up on two decades now....

Wildlife is a very important component of everything a forester does, and for anyone here to insinuate that isn't the case is a gross injustice to everything the ABCFP stands for......

Well, I tried, but, whatever.

BTW, Dave, I do not and have never claimed to be a "forester", I simply worked for two provincial forest services and that was in "protection" and a little "reforestation" work, as I resigned twice from "ranger staff" because I found that it was not for me. I do see certain aspects of contemporary field practices in my extensive travels in the bush throughout BC and I am curious as to the actual cause of some phenomena.....but, I am not going to bicker with you here as I know many highly qualified professionals in environmental sciences who can and will give me the info. I seek.

[KodiakHntr]

Well, again, Dewey, so much is wrong with pretty much every point you are trying to make that it is pointless to try and correct you. As a sidenote though, I haven't been a "field worker" for years.....So yeah, I'm pretty in tune with all aspects of forestry.......
HOWEVER, the point I will make, is that even "field workers" have a LOT of input into how wildlife is managed in an industry setting. Liability and negligence being what it is everyone is responsible for information flow to ensure the proper managment of resources.

Questions such as what the OP asked though, can be answered with the tiniest amount of research on the ABCFP website.

[Westslope]

Being in the planning side of Forestry Management I must agree with Kodiakhntr, lots of consultation is done with various interest groups. A good example happens when a guide identifies some special interests in an area. We will work with them to accommodate concerns, this happens all the time. So I guess the outfitters do something good for wildlife, contrary to what is believed by some on here..
I am not really sure where devilbear gets this sickening sense of self righteousness(worked for the government a couple of years?). Instead of sitting around complaining about what is wrong with BC myself and Kodiakhntr are actively involved in landscape management and we have the freedom to actually put into action our knowledge and education. If we hunt we will likely leave visual buffers near roads, we will leave spots that have known habitat features and we will do our background review of the sites using higher level plans. If we don't know about something we see we will bring in professional biologists or other experts, I have done this plenty.
I too have had some good spots that I hunt logged, most of us have. The "not in my backyard" is hard to ignore. Going back to the OP if you have some real concerns regarding your area, go talk to the licensee, they will discuss your concerns and look into it. Perhaps you have some knowledge about the area that may not be considered "common". If it's just because you like the look of the area, you may want to hunt in one of the many "open" provincial parks, great places to get attached to trees, even if they are dead pine. I guess the only draw back is you won't be able to cruise on a nice logging road sipping a latte.

[KodiakHntr]

Very well said Westslope.

[rocksteady]

Don't hate the players, hate the game....

Lets look back at the history of how we got to where we are today....

25 or so years ago the government agencies were staffed full and it was their job to look at all of this stuff......

Things were going well, until the environmental groups got a foothold in and raised such a big stink that the Forest Practices Code was created...It was very prescriptive with a slew of "guidebooks"...So, if the Licensees have all tehse guidebooks, they know how to do things, no need for the government agencies to be staffed so high, we only need the people to go out an dmake sure the Licensees are following the guides.

Time goes on, the Licensees tell teh gov that the Guidebooks and the Code are too costly for the Licensees to have to do all of the planning/assessments/impact studies and still be able to make money cutting lumber.....

Things change and the Government brings in a new era of "professional relaince"....The Foresters are all RPF's, they have experience doing it so we will do spot audits to make sure that everything is done based on professional practice....Also known as reliance based....Still no increase in gov agencies staff, just reassignment of existing to go do the audits..

So where are we at now??? The Licensees come up with a harvesting plan for a certain drainage, they do public consultation (before they used to have open houses, complete with opportunity for eveyone to comment, including gov agencies) and do what they think is right, based on professional reliance and result based activities...They do the harvesting...Maybe they will get audited by the Government for compliance etc etc, probably not. If someone, somewhere has a major issue with what has occurred, a complaint can be lodged with the Forest Practices Board, who will bring in the necessary professionals to decide if the concern is valid...From there, it may be accepted as not an issue or a penalty levied against the Licensee...


Forest/environmental management has been placed in the hands of the forest companies and foresters to manage to the best of their abilities (I believe MOST of each mentioned do their best to do what is right, some may be shady or try to cut corners, but most are good managers). Most companies and foresters are more than willing to bring in the necessary experts (biologists/soil scientists etc) if they feel they need advice and they eat the costs.....

The management of BC's resources has changed due to political, environemntal and economic inputs......Like I said in the first line ..Don't hate the players, hate the game...

[Devilbear]

I dont' get any ...hate... from "Walksalot's" initial post and the animosity so amusingly posted by a couple of "Forest Technologists", NOT "foresters", their sense of self-importance, aside, is not directed at the field workers, as I see it. The problem is that the resource agencies ARE. as both you and I stated, understaffed and underfunded and have been for many years. This, leads to various problems and that is how I interpret the OP.

The problems with allowing industry staff to make crucial landuse decisions are obvious, both here in some comments and in the bush, but, this is not likely to change in the forseeable future. But, one cannot predict the future and perhaps a new BC government might improve the situation.

[KodiakHntr]

Speaking of self-importance.....(Which is rather amusing coming from a guy who spent a significant portion of his working career as a retail salesman)

And yes, Dewey, I am a Forester. A profession which is regulated quite closely by the ABCFP. Like I said earlier, feel free to research the governing body which holds equal authority over both industry AND government. The Association of BC Forest Professionals. Or continue to spout drivel, the choice is yours.

[Fisher-Dude]

cooperative union

Oxymoron of the Year Award, right there!

[NNS]

Walksalot,
They say that crap runs downhill and I can certainly verify THAT being a retired, farmboy, joe lunchbucket, blue collar, immigrant logger!
The public hasn't got a clue about the hoops that the mills, logging contractors and operators have to go through these days..

Chew on this for awhile..
http://www.bing.com/search?q=ISO+Standards+Forestry&go=&qs=n&form=QBRE&pq=iso%2520standards%2520forestry&sc=0-20&sp=-1&sk=

Some of the standards are for the better but some made no sense at all such as some of ground disturbance rules..
Try being a skidder or buncher operator in the fall before freeze up when the mill is crying for wood and you must work with in the ground disturbance rules only to see a disc trencher come in next spring/summer and rip the block up so the tree planters can do their planting..
Every spring the operators for the mill we supplied had to go to some kind of school so the mill could obtain and keep its ISO certification..
Heck we were going to dirt school and haz. mat. school long before this ISO thing came along..
Now, I will ask that next time you are out in the bush driving down a logging road thru standing timber and you come up to a cut block that has been replanted with a few years growth on it STOP..
Get out of your P-U, and walk back down the road from the direction you came maybe 50-100 meters, then walk into the standing timber another 100m watching the ground looking for wildlife sign to include small rodents..
If you are in a climax forest and if the forest down in your area is like the one we log here in the central interior then you will see no sign or very little sign..
Now make a 90* turn and head for the plantation and you will see various types of grasses and maybe some legumes and various type of browse in that plantation that supports all matter of wildlife..
There are some animal that do take a hit, squirrels, martin and fisher come to mind..
However in a few years that logged off area will support way more pray for the martin and fisher than the forest that was just logged..
When you consider that we have climax forest, and plantations in various stages of maturity you may come to the conclusion the wildlife is better off today with fire suppression and logging than it ever was when vast areas of climax forest would burn unchecked and start a new forest from ground zero..
If you do come across what you precieve as a logging sex crime in the bush, then by all means report it to the forest service..

Idle thoughts from an old buncherman who spent 20 years in the bush doing a mind numming job..

KodiakHntr..
Do you know how many hectors were estimated to be burned per year in B.C. before fire suppression as compared to today and how many hectors are logged per year now compared to what burned unchecked before fire suppression?
Years ago I "heard" (from a rabid anti-logging person believe it or not) that we are logging the same amount of hectors today as that were burnt before fire suppression..
Thanks..

[KodiakHntr]

KodiakHntr..
Do you know how many hectors were estimated to be burned per year in B.C. before fire suppression as compared to today and how many hectors are logged per year now compared to what burned unchecked before fire suppression?
Years ago I "heard" (from a rabid anti-logging person believe it or not) that we are logging the same amount of hectors today as that were burnt before fire suppression..
Thanks..

No idea on the ratio. I'm sure that a little time on google might find it though....