Nass Moose Closure Proposed

[The Dude]

Close Moose LEH in the Nass Wildlife Management Area

Submitted on February 2nd 2012

Proposal Number:
694


Status:
Proposed


Region (MU):
MU 6-14
MU 6-15
MU 6-16


Regulation Type:
Limited Entry Hunting


Species:
Moose


Closing Date:
Feb 21, 2012


Subject:
Close Moose LEH in the Nass Wildlife Management Area



Current Regulations:
Limited Entry Hunting - Moose
Area MU Zone Class of Animal Season Dates
Smithers 6-14 Bull Only Oct 10 – Oct 19, Oct. 27 – Nov. 15
Smithers 6-15 B (http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/hunting/resident/docs/ahte/moose_6-15_a_b.pdf) Bull Only Oct 10 – Oct 19, Oct. 27 – Nov. 15
Smithers 6-16 A (http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/hunting/resident/docs/ahte/moose_6-16_a.pdf) Bull Only Oct 10 – Oct 19, Oct. 27 – Nov. 15



Proposed Regulations:
Close the Moose LEH season in MU 6-14, Zone B of 6-15, and Zone A of 6-16.



Rationale:
This proposal attempts to address a conservation concern for a population of moose that appears to be declining. Moose hunting opportunities in the area have been managed through LEH after 2008 in response to a moose population inventory in 2007 that indicated the moose population had declined by approximately 50% from the previous survey in 2001. The conservative harvest measures were put in place in an attempt to recover the population. A survey conducted in 2011 indicated that the population has not recovered and may have declined further. More restrictive harvest management measures are proposed to be implemented for all user groups.




http://a100.gov.bc.ca/pub/ahte/hunting/close-moose-leh-nass-wildlife-management-area

[f350ps]

I can imagine who is behind this one! K

[The Dude]

You mean, which "User Group" is "using" a little too much? LOL. Let's call them "User Group C", and keep it civil. :-)

[CanuckShooter]

I can imagine who is behind this one! K


Reads like Mr. Science is behind it...a declining population thus the concern and further restrictions.

[Wild one]

Odd the few hunters I know who hunt near Smithers said it was a good year

Me thinks someone is blowing smoke up are arse when it comes to the reason for the closure

[gerrygoat]

This is very upsetting, the biggest reason why the moose are declining is the cows are being shot off. Canuckshooter is the cows weren't being shot off at an alarming rate do you think the moose poulation would come back? Sounds like good science to me harvest only bulls.

[CanuckShooter]

This is very upsetting, the biggest reason why the moose are declining is the cows are being shot off. Canuckshooter is the cows weren't being shot off at an alarming rate do you think the moose poulation would come back? Sounds like good science to me harvest only bulls.

Maybe the wolves and bears are killing too many? If you have a healthy herd then you can take some cows....it's the science guys who are calling the shots.

[gerrygoat]

Yes there are wolves and bears killing some too but this population has been hammered for quite a few years with excessive cow hunting. When you have people that openly admit that they have shot 5 cows and their buddy 6 like it's some kind of a contest it's not too hard to figure out that no cows = no babies to replace them either. For the 3 sections of the Nass in question how will a total of 13 tags for a huge area make any real difference?

[CanuckShooter]

Yes there are wolves and bears killing some too but this population has been hammered for quite a few years with excessive cow hunting. When you have people that openly admit that they have shot 5 cows and their buddy 6 like it's some kind of a contest it's not too hard to figure out that no cows = no babies to replace them either. For the 3 sections of the Nass in question how will a total of 13 tags for a huge area make any real difference?

These 'people' haven't been doing the same thing for many years before the population started to drop?? Here is another idea for you....more train kills. Locals on the east/west train lines say where they used to hear trains perhaps twice a day...they now are hearing up to ten times per day. How many moose are being killed by these trains?

[The Hermit]

CS are you for real or just being obtuse to justify what the rest of us see as the BIGGEST of a number of issues?

[The Dude]

These 'people' haven't been doing the same thing for many years before the population started to drop?? Here is another idea for you....more train kills. Locals on the east/west train lines say where they used to hear trains perhaps twice a day...they now are hearing up to ten times per day. How many moose are being killed by these trains?

Awwwww...man...... I hope you're joking.

[gerrygoat]

There are definite concerns about the train killing moose and deer but there is no railway within around 100 km of the affected area in the Nass. The moose are actually doing better closer to Terrace for example where the railway goes through but this population is declining as well. In general there needs to be something done about the railway kills and the cows need to be left alone so we can have a decent population.

[bushguy]

Laugh my fking a ss off

[The Dude]

This site is nothing if not colorful :D

[CanuckShooter]

CS are you for real or just being obtuse to justify what the rest of us see as the BIGGEST of a number of issues?

NO, I just find the ignorance to be a little over bearing. Everytime a thread like this starts up all the red neck bozos start to blame the natives. Can you honestly say that the natives killing moose hasn't been going on for many many years before any decline in the moose population was noticed? Has the native population that kills moose doubled in the last twenty years? Have the predator populations changed?? How many moose are killed by trains every winter in BC...are there more trains now than before?? Open the link and read........

http://www.terracedaily.ca/go2307a/CN_STOP_KILLING_WILDLIFE

[CanuckShooter]

During the spring of 2007 a moose mortality flight was conducted along a section of CN Rail tracks between Endako and Smithers. The section of track surveyed was approximately 250 kilometres in length. One hundred and sixty nine moose, killed due to rail traffic, were visually counted during the survey. It is our understanding that the BC Ministry of Environment estimates the actual kill for this relatively short stretch of rail to be closer to 300 animals. This section of rail represents a very short sample of line running along the Highway #16 corridor between Prince Rupert and McBride. We would suggest that the total number moose for this section of tracks alone would well exceed 1000 animals. Other wildlife mortalities throughout this stretch of rail are also significant.
http://www.terracedaily.ca/go2307a/CN_STOP_KILLING_WILDLIFE

[gerrygoat]

I'm no redneck for the record and again there is no train in the Nass valley. I live here and know what's going on I guarantee you what I'm saying is true I am not saying that all Natives are wiping out moose but some of the things that have gone on are almost unbelieveable.

[The Dude]

NO, I just find the ignorance to be a little over bearing. Everytime a thread like this starts up all the red neck bozos start to blame the natives. Can you honestly say that the natives killing moose hasn't been going on for many many years before any decline in the moose population was noticed? Has the native population that kills moose doubled in the last twenty years? Have the predator populations changed?? How many moose are killed by trains every winter in BC...are there more trains now than before?? Open the link and read........

http://www.terracedaily.ca/go2307a/CN_STOP_KILLING_WILDLIFE

Well, that's food for thought, I must admit........anyone else have input on this?

[bushguy]

Natives are wiping out moose but some of the things that have gone on are almost unbelieveable.


shhhhh,,just what i heard on the internet!

[CanuckShooter]

I'm no redneck for the record and again there is no train in the Nass valley. I live here and know what's going on I guarantee you what I'm saying is true I am not saying that all Natives are wiping out moose but some of the things that have gone on are almost unbelieveable.

I grew up in a place surrounded by natives, and reserves. There is nothing different going on here than has been going on over the last 30 years by the natives. Most of them cannot even be bothered to invest the effort to go out and get a moose...so the native moose hunting that is going on is pretty minimal in comparison to predator and train mortality. Is it different in the Nass? Has there been a sudden resurgence in natives actually going out and getting a moose rather than just picking up some steak at the local food store?

[gerrygoat]

Natives are wiping out moose but some of the things that have gone on are almost unbelieveable.


shhhhh,,just what i heard on the internet!

Not what I said please don't take things out of context that I say. I'm trying to have a conversation with canuckshooter on this. What would you like to say on this matter bushguy?

[gerrygoat]

I grew up in a place surrounded by natives, and reserves. There is nothing different going on here than has been going on over the last 30 years by the natives. Most of them cannot even be bothered to invest the effort to go out and get a moose...so the native moose hunting that is going on is pretty minimal in comparison to predator and train mortality. Is it different in the Nass? Has there been a sudden resurgence in natives actually going out and getting a moose rather than just picking up some steak at the local food store?

Like I am trying to say most natives are not doing this but there are some who are. I have no beef with you you're a decent guy it has been very upsetting to see the moose decline so much I have said my peace on this thread. Maybe you and I can pm each other on this, this thread will likely go south quickly.

[burger]

NO, I just find the ignorance to be a little over bearing. Everytime a thread like this starts up all the red neck bozos start to blame the natives. Can you honestly say that the natives killing moose hasn't been going on for many many years before any decline in the moose population was noticed? Has the native population that kills moose doubled in the last twenty years? Have the predator populations changed?? How many moose are killed by trains every winter in BC...are there more trains now than before?? Open the link and read........

http://www.terracedaily.ca/go2307a/CN_STOP_KILLING_WILDLIFE

No the native population hasnt double BUT for a lot of people in all societies the overindulgence and lack of longterm concern has doubled possibly even tripled. Couple that with a lack of enforcement along with a entitlment ideology and there is a recipe for disaster. It would be the same thing if the rest of the BC population could, and lets be realistic it would happen, go around and shoot whatever I wanted as it was my right there would be people shooting anything they can just cuz.

[bushguy]

i think its true,,is all im saying

[CanuckShooter]

i think its true,,is all im saying

funny thing is you have natives near Vernon too....say goodbye to your moose and deer!!! hahahahahahahahahahahaha ;-)

[bushguy]

yes i know!,,if only theyd hunt devilbears! hahahahahahahaahahahahah ;)

shhh dont wake him up

[gerrygoat]

i think its true,,is all im saying

Not from me. I want everyone to be equal regardless of race, I'm definitely out of this one now :) BTW what would you do to stop the decline of moose in the Nass since you are an expert on this area ;)

[The Dude]

Is it possible that road access has improved, as well as technology for hunting?

[bowhunterbruce]

did the people of the nass band,not conclude thier native rights just a few years back.i remember hearing something about it from a native co-worker that was from there.
if it was and they lost rights like the amount of salmon etc they were allowed.would it not only make sence that less fish ment an increase of meat needed for thier consumption.hence the decrease in moose numbers.
just a thought.
if anyone can find something on thier treaty,it might answer some questions.
not saying its right or wrong
just saying its possible,thats all
bhb

[bushguy]

I want everyone to be equal regardless of race,

BINGO!

BTW what would you do to stop the decline of moose in the Nass since you are an expert on this area :wink:

Nothing,,,i just want to bitch about it on the internet

[bushguy]

Actually,on second thot,id send in a team of ,,Don Cherry,Kevin Oleary, Ted Nugent ,and Kechika,to negotiate with the perps :)

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I grew up in a place surrounded by natives, and reserves. There is nothing different going on here than has been going on over the last 30 years by the natives. Most of them cannot even be bothered to invest the effort to go out and get a moose...so the native moose hunting that is going on is pretty minimal in comparison to predator and train mortality. Is it different in the Nass? Has there been a sudden resurgence in natives actually going out and getting a moose rather than just picking up some steak at the local food store?

Do you just call them lazy??

SSS

[GoatGuy]

Canuckshooter,

There were attempted solutions. The identified gap is female mortality - ie cows being harvested. There were 'limits' for everyone, including FN in the area. Think the LEH went down to one or two, outfitter cut right back for recovery. The Nass had their own people checking but did not have great up-take in the 'limits' and it appears the population has continued to decline.

Predation is probably on the rise as it is across the province, but this specific area is the only one to see widespread declines. Neighbouring MUs have not seen the same problems. Of course, predator management and habitat enhancement would help, but that is not what created such a drastic decline in such a short period of time. At this point we should be working on a long-term solution.

As for your posts, you get two buckets in life, one intelligence and one ignorance. The ignorance bucket is currently outweighing the intelligence bucket.

[The Dude]

Canuckshooter,

There were attempted solutions. The identified gap is female mortality - ie cows being harvested. There were 'limits' for everyone, including FN in the area. Think the LEH went down to one or two, outfitter cut right back for recovery. The Nass had their own people checking but did not have great up-take in the 'limits' and it appears the population has continued to decline.

Predation is probably on the rise as it is across the province, but this specific area is the only one to see widespread declines. Neighbouring MUs have not seen the same problems. Of course, predator management and habitat enhancement would help, but that is not what created such a drastic decline in such a short period of time. At this point we should be working on a long-term solution.

As for your posts, you get two buckets in life, one intelligence and one ignorance. The ignorance bucket is currently outweighing the intelligence bucket.

And the Voice of Reason lands..... I was hoping you'd show up, Goat Guy!
**Pointing to the sky***
You have like a cape, or anything? I can chip in!

[CanuckShooter]

Canuckshooter,

There were attempted solutions. The identified gap is female mortality - ie cows being harvested. There were 'limits' for everyone, including FN in the area. Think the LEH went down to one or two, outfitter cut right back for recovery. The Nass had their own people checking but did not have great up-take in the 'limits' and it appears the population has continued to decline.

Predation is probably on the rise as it is across the province, but this specific area is the only one to see widespread declines. Neighbouring MUs have not seen the same problems. Of course, predator management and habitat enhancement would help, but that is not what created such a drastic decline in such a short period of time. At this point we should be working on a long-term solution.

As for your posts, you get two buckets in life, one intelligence and one ignorance. The ignorance bucket is currently outweighing the intelligence bucket.

Your point? Nobody knows why??

[GoatGuy]

Your point? Nobody knows why??

Two points.

First, too many cow moose being shot. Despite a 'gentlemen's agreement' to limit harvest, it didn't happen.

Second point, engage brain, then type.

[Gumsehwah]

I grew up in a place surrounded by natives, and reserves. There is nothing different going on here than has been going on over the last 30 years by the natives. Most of them cannot even be bothered to invest the effort to go out and get a moose...so the native moose hunting that is going on is pretty minimal in comparison to predator and train mortality. Is it different in the Nass? Has there been a sudden resurgence in natives actually going out and getting a moose rather than just picking up some steak at the local food store?

Well guys, I LIVE in the Nass, and just a little while ago they found a moose shot and left to the wolves, with only a rear quarter taken. Also, the word is that there is some kind of disease affecting the numbers, but I have no proof of that. The "natives" here in the valley usually would rather NOT a cow moose, but there those who do. There are also those up here (Nisgaa AND Gumsehwah) who poach routinely.

I just wonder why the government isnt looking at WHY the numbers are decreasing. If they restricted the numbers (1 per year, full grown bulls only) and started sending researchers out here, THEN maybe we could turn this situation around.

[GoatGuy]

Well guys, I LIVE in the Nass, and just a little while ago they found a moose shot and left to the wolves, with only a rear quarter taken. Also, the word is that there is some kind of disease affecting the numbers, but I have no proof of that. The "natives" here in the valley usually would rather NOT a cow moose, but there those who do. There are also those up here (Nisgaa AND Gumsehwah) who poach routinely.

I just wonder why the government isnt looking at WHY the numbers are decreasing. If they restricted the numbers (1 per year, full grown bulls only) and started sending researchers out here, THEN maybe we could turn this situation around.

I agree, it's time for a solution. Seems like the easiest thing to do would be to get on board with a common goal of increasing moose populations and deal with the education side, predation and habitat.

[Gumsehwah]

Yes. . . . and that moose mentioned above was only one of many. A friend of mine was sent in to dispatch a moose that had been shot in the neck and had wandered around for two days. It was finally found stuck in the marsh and dispatched. Point is that the guy shot from the roadside and didn't even attempt to track.

Another interesting point brought up to me by former NLG biologist is the global warming factor. We now get very heavy run off and frequent flooding. During this time Moose often are forced to escape the deep floodwaters by 1) getting up onto the railbeds, or 2) up into the slopes, where the wolves are waiting. Interesting to note that most of the wolfkills I find are in the uplands.

[Gumsehwah]

Oh, yeah. The grizzleys on the mountainside like moose fajitas as well.

[Jagermeister]

Well, if you have indiscriminte harvesting year round of all sexes, you can hardly expect the species to thrive. Closing down the LEH is not going to improve the situation as the LEH allotment is really only incidental. If you are responding to the proposal, you're wasting your time as it is inevitable that the area is lost to the ordinary BC resident hunter. Acquiesing to the proposal however has a downside and that is other bands may see it as a tool to remove the ordinary BC resident hunter from their quasi territories.
I often wonder how many moose are taken and sold in the underground market? Don't tell me it doesn't happen.

[Gumsehwah]

Why would the area be lost to the "ordinary bc hunter?"

[flyboy]

Taking away the LEH will not stop the decline,, If you want to put a stop on an area then you have to stop all groups from hunting for a specified period of time. If you allow one group to continue hunting full bore it will not work. If there is an actual proven problem then wouldn't everyone want to chip in to ensure there is a population for years to come???

We all know that will never happen in this province.

[burger]

Sorry to say this but these types of issues cannot be resolved within our current wildlife management plan. Reason is simple. We cannot have a proper game managment system when there are two groups of people running said system. We as a nation have given up the right to really control all aspects of any government based issue as we effectively have two parties running them. Just as others have said on here, when one side does not keep their end of the handshake agreement and we as a nation have no real intention of pusuing those that abuse the system(not all do but as we know only a few extra animals can be the tipping point) then we are at a crossroads.
Yes im sure predation is up and that also will contribute to the issue but we have the ability to make changes there and possibly reduce that issue but no matter what we do if there are entities that are allowed to go around unchecked the current landscape will only get worse

[Gumsehwah]

Well, if you have indiscriminte harvesting year round of all sexes, you can hardly expect the species to thrive.
I often wonder how many moose are taken and sold in the underground market? Don't tell me it doesn't happen.

I agree.

A lot of moose wind up on the underground market. a few years ago they nailed a guy and his wife in Rosswood that had taken @27 moose and sold them on the underground market.

By the way, he wasn't first nations.

Moose is usually consumed by the family, divided up among family and friends, and is a staple of any feast/potlach.

[Mr. Dean]

I SOOOOOOOOOOOO Agree with this:






but no matter what we do if there are entities that are allowed to go around
unchecked the current landscape will only get worse

[Buck]

Well guys, I LIVE in the Nass, and just a little while ago they found a moose shot and left to the wolves, with only a rear quarter taken. Also, the word is that there is some kind of disease affecting the numbers, but I have no proof of that. The "natives" here in the valley usually would rather NOT a cow moose, but there those who do. There are also those up here (Nisgaa AND Gumsehwah) who poach routinely.

I just wonder why the government isnt looking at WHY the numbers are decreasing. If they restricted the numbers (1 per year, full grown bulls only) and started sending researchers out here, THEN maybe we could turn this situation around.

With the Pipeline negotiations going on i wouldn't expect the Gov to be concerned with the moose population and prosecuting poachers.The chiefs really need to get on this stuff and shame the perpetrators if they want to Govern themselves then Govern for christ sake.

[CanuckShooter]

Two points.

First, too many cow moose being shot. Despite a 'gentlemen's agreement' to limit harvest, it didn't happen.

Second point, engage brain, then type.

So you've made history then by getting them to report how many cows they have shot? Or perhaps you've just fabricated that bit of data? The last I heard on this was nobody had managed to get FNs to report harvest levels. What an amazing break through!

[CanuckShooter]

I beg to differ!

A few years ago while moose hunting north of Germansen Landing 7-38 we heard a few shots about 100 metres away from camp while still dark . Thinking it was poachers we waited until daybreak before checking it out. We followed the drag marks for at least 1 km & then found a couple natives(father & son) in the process of quartering a good size cow moose that was in her prime. That sight was depressing. It reminded me of how many times that I’ve seen a cow & her calves. Killing that cow was like killing at least a dozen moose! The younger guy from Ft. St. James /Manson Creek area showed us his status card. Then he proceeded to boast that he shot 5 or 6 bulls and 2 or 3 cows in the last couple of weeks or so. He did offer us a couple of steaks which we politely refused.
We were told that we were trespassing on their traditional lands. The next day around midnight at least 6 shots(found shells next morning) from a shotgun were heard not too far from our campsite. Obviously they wanted us out.

2 days later 2 groups of hunters came by our camp. They were camped by Uslika Lake & were harassed by the natives for 2 nights in a row by the rapid fire of the semi -automatic weapons. Also they told us that the natives shot the moose indiscriminately (cows, calves…) day or night & all year. Both groups said they would never go back to the area again.

The native hunters(at least 2 parties) were road hunting day& night wherever there was access leaving us no alternative but to leave the area.
We’ve been hunting 7-38 for over 40 years & never seen natives hunting or had an encounter before. It looks like a new trend so get used to it!
I’m aware that trains & wolves are partially responsible for the moose decline but I think it’s only a small fraction of the total number that the natives kill.

I’m convinced that a similar scenario is happening in all of BC.
The indiscriminate shooting must be stopped. PERIOD.


That experience sounds terrible, ive only seen natives out hunting during the regular season two times in 40 years, I hope we never experience ignorance like that from anybody.

[silvicon]

Approx. 50% of moose calfs are taken by predators (wolves, bears and coyotes).
Unethitcal hunting practise by all parties AND the excessive killing and maiming of moose (preferrable cows with calfs and pregnant cows) by the indians.
The BC government and bureaucrats don't have th eguts to put an end to indian overharvesting.
We. the taxpaying non-indians have to pay for it.
High time we close ranks and get active!

[Jagermeister]

I grew up in a place surrounded by natives, and reserves. There is nothing different going on here than has been going on over the last 30 years by the natives. Most of them cannot even be bothered to invest the effort to go out and get a moose...so the native moose hunting that is going on is pretty minimal in comparison to predator and train mortality. Is it different in the Nass? Has there been a sudden resurgence in natives actually going out and getting a moose rather than just picking up some steak at the local food store?
I think Sir, that you are thirty years behind times and you don't even know it. The lazy pissed Indian that you refer to is an Indian of the past. Most are business oriented today, regardless of whether that business is legit or not. I'm sorry if this offends you, but it is the sign of the times. They can do it and they will do it.

[Sitkaspruce]

Maybe GG can correct me on this, but did not the Supreme Court of Canada state that the wildlife in BC was conservation #1, sustenance #2 and resident hunting #3.

If this is the case, then it has to be shut down for ALL, some cannot jump on the courts back when they do not like something that is "Imposed" on them, but ignore it when it suits them.

Time will tell if they can show that they can manage what is going on.

Cheers

SS

[CanuckShooter]

Maybe GG can correct me on this, but did not the Supreme Court of Canada state that the wildlife in BC was conservation #1, sustenance #2 and resident hunting #3.

If this is the case, then it has to be shut down for ALL, some cannot jump on the courts back when they do not like something that is "Imposed" on them, but ignore it when it suits them.

Time will tell if they can show that they can manage what is going on.

Cheers

SS

Who is going to the courts? The elimination of the LEH in that zone only affects those that would have applied there....just don't see anyone taking this decision to court??

[gitnadoix]

There has been decades of great moose hunting in the lower Nass water shed (the area encompased by this proposed closure) since the large scale 1000 hectare plus logging settings created major food plots that allowed the moose populations to expand into none historic areas and to none historic levels......

But Skeena Celulose and others are gone as are the days of their unlimited sized logging settings. Most of the huge setting they created are also now grown up past the level where they represented almost unlimited food plots. Dont get me wrong there is still food there but the end to end huge 1000 hectare plus fields of red osier dogwood and willow are now mainly regen....... There used to be three saw mills that ran 24/7 suplied by wood from these areas. The wood that currently is coming outa this same area for over seas shipping is a drop in the bucket compared to what used to come out of there...... So you take away all of this industry created food plots and slowly we are returning to a more historic level of moose population fro this area. Every one is baseing their moose expectations for this area on their own memories.....which are one and sometimes 2 generations long.......sadly thats not the natural level for this area and we probably will never see the numbers we saw in the 70's 80's 90's again as the new age of logging for this area is much slower and while it may be more sustainable from a forest resource point of view....its just not good for moose...unless we start allowing fires to go un checked but we know that cant happen,,,so stop blaming the train its been running since about 1918 I beleive, and the year round native harvest is also not new nore are the predators......the only new player here is the regeneration of conifers where there once was fields of wall to wall moose food.....

[sherpa-Al]

The harsh reality of this situation is that the moose population in the proposed closure areas is so low that it may never fully recover. This is due to many factors and some have been already been discussed but there are other pressures besides poaching that are just as devastating.

The logging in the Nass watershed with the exception of the last couple of years has been non-existent. There is simply not the quality food source that has existed in the past that comes with regrowth after logging.
There has been more than a handfull of deep snow winters in the past 15 years. These snow levels regularily reach 5-7 feet of standing snow with thaw/freeze cycles creating heavy crusts that the wolves can travel on easily.
Wolf predatation increased due to the snow conditions which resulted in a wolf population spike = less moose.
A high snowpack means a large runoff which causes havoc in the Nass river bottom, water levels that have reached record levels completely covering moose calving grounds with cold, rushing, deep water.

Does anyone actually think that the Ministry closing the moose hunting to all user groups in the Nass is going to magically bring back the moose numbers to what they once were? If the Ministry really cared do you think they would have waited so long to do a moose survey knowing full well what happens every winter in the Nass? The easiest way out is to implement a species closure and be done with it, then there's no reason to do patrols or monitor because there isn't anyone hunting the area, right?

Somewhere along the line the population finally hit levels that were not self sustaining and have gone into a downward spiral, unable to get back on it's feet.

Al.

[sherpa-Al]

Hey Git, we must have been typing at the same time!

[CanuckShooter]

About time some good thoughts got added to this thread, although Gits there are more trains running these days.

[wicket]

What is the actual carrying capacity for this area and are the moose numbers at or below it? Or is everyone just upset because its not like the good old days anymore and looking to point fingers in a shotgun fashion looking for answers. Im a simpleton but Id like to see the science first. Would contacting the local bio assuming there is one dunno help to get some answers dunno just throwing this out there. Without knowing the absolute details I tend to agree with Git and suspect habitat change as an important factor to decline. Its a passionate topic for sure and I hope you guys can get some answers and resolution. I have to say that for all of Ontarios problems and short comings our MNR does a pretty good job with our moose herd for the numbers of people they have to work with in the field and drastic budget cuts. Not really relivent to this topic i know but i have a bad headache and tend to ramble.
Wicket

[burger]

Who is going to the courts? The elimination of the LEH in that zone only affects those that would have applied there....just don't see anyone taking this decision to court??

No one is going to the courts as if there is a shut down of the area LEH then do you really think that the FN harvest will be decresed as well? Reread what sitkaspruce has said please.

[burger]

About time some good thoughts got added to this thread, although Gits there are more trains running these days.

Alot of people have written good thoughts here CS maybe not all of it PC but in reality some are tired of the two tiered system that is obviously failing in alot of areas. The blatant "its my land and I will do what I want" is an antique and need to be addresssed. Yes I know that some non FN over harvest as well BUT they routinely get caught and actually get charged with said crimes whereas when FN are caught we do nothing as we cant upset them.


Why dont you tell me what you think is the root cause of the problem as you have been in this topic since the beginning and have done nothing but quote and point. Why not try to be one of those "good thoughts" and tell me what your gut tells ya.

I think that if there is an issue all parties should stop completely and we try and reduce the animal predation to the best of our abilities.

[CanuckShooter]

Alot of people have written good thoughts here CS maybe not all of it PC but in reality some are tired of the two tiered system that is obviously failing in alot of areas. The blatant "its my land and I will do what I want" is an antique and need to be addresssed. Yes I know that some non FN over harvest as well BUT they routinely get caught and actually get charged with said crimes whereas when FN are caught we do nothing as we cant upset them.


Why dont you tell me what you think is the root cause of the problem as you have been in this topic since the beginning and have done nothing but quote and point. Why not try to be one of those "good thoughts" and tell me what your gut tells ya.

I think that if there is an issue all parties should stop completely and we try and reduce the animal predation to the best of our abilities.


It's most likely a combination of things, including all the points made throughout the thread. All hunting [native, resident, non-resident, poaching] , predation, train/highway collisions, natural mortality and habitat degradation. I don't think we can pigeon hole a single root cause.

It seems to be pretty well noted that there is a problem in the area and what ever steps that can be taken should be taken to try and stop the depletion of the moose herds there. IMO.

[Caribou_lou]

Sorry guys if my comments that follow are repeats of what someone else has already said. But I read the first few pages and puked in my mouth thanks to Canuckshooter, So I decided to skip right to the end.

We have a local paper in Smithers call the Bulkley Browser, a couple months ago there was a full page in it directing natives to go out and be issued a permit to hunt moose in the Nass. Then they must report whatever is shot! *There is one huge step in the right direction!

Whether they are cooperating is another story. So Mr. Science you speak of CanuckShooter has spoken and has addressed the "problem" at hand.

[Caribou_lou]

I know you will most likely call me some names now canuckshooter or accuse me of picking on one group. And I'm sure you will point out what you think I may have overlooked. But I am a man who looks at numbers. The more numbers we have, the better we would be at calculating an allocation for a huntable population! This is one large number that has been guessed or predicted for many years. So with little effort by the Native community it would be a big help to managing our moose.

[CanuckShooter]

Sorry guys if my comments that follow are repeats of what someone else has already said. But I read the first few pages and puked in my mouth thanks to Canuckshooter, So I decided to skip right to the end.

We have a local paper in Smithers call the Bulkley Browser, a couple months ago there was a full page in it directing natives to go out and be issued a permit to hunt moose in the Nass. Then they must report whatever is shot! *There is one huge step in the right direction!

Whether they are cooperating is another story. So Mr. Science you speak of CanuckShooter has spoken and has addressed the "problem" at hand.

If you did something that gross, it's your own fault i had nothing to do with it......

[CanuckShooter]

I know you will most likely call me some names now canuckshooter or accuse me of picking on one group. And I'm sure you will point out what you think I may have overlooked. But I am a man who looks at numbers. The more numbers we have, the better we would be at calculating an allocation for a huntable population! This is one large number that has been guessed or predicted for many years. So with little effort by the Native community it would be a big help to managing our moose.


How many are killed by grizzly bears? how many are killed by black bears?? how many are killed by cougars?? how many are killed by wolves?? how many are dying from disease?? how many are drowning, being killed by falling trees, getting stuck in the mud?? ADD this up and there is one large number that nobody can figure out.

SO the only numbers that mean anything are actual live counts...you cannot manage a moose population by only looking at how many are taken by hunters....it won't work as there are too many variables.

[Caribou_lou]

Name calling as predicted,

It does not bother me that you think there may be more to the problem. It just gets a bit hard to read when threads get hammered time and time again with your silly comments.

Sure sometimes people jump to the conclusion that it is actions by the natives and its not. Its an easy road to go down and is always a valid point. Partially because in Majority of the province they don't need to get permits and report kills. But if we had numbers of their kills, and there happen to be a crisis in a certain area, We would be able to rule them out! Plain and simple. But at the time we don't have these numbers... and it has been addressed that too many cows and calves have been shot.

So say it is wolves killing majority of the moose. Residents went from an open season, to LEH, now to a proposed closure. We have now removed residents from the area for Moose hunting. Therefore dropping the number of wolves that could be shot by hunters in the fall. To me this is frustrating because if this is not an issue of too many wolves it will be soon.

[Caribou_lou]

How many are killed by grizzly bears? how many are killed by black bears?? how many are killed by cougars?? how many are killed by wolves?? how many are dying from disease?? how many are drowning, being killed by falling trees, getting stuck in the mud?? ADD this up and there is one large number that nobody can figure out.

You are stressing the point I am trying to make! Native kills is thrown in there with all of your points as a guess because we don't have any numbers. With little cooperation we can get numbers and pull them out of the pool of "what we will never know"! That is the only number we are capable of retaining! So why aren't we?

Well now in the Nass we are! That is as long as they cooperate and I sure hope they do because like i said earlier. "This would be one huge step in the right direction", and I don't think it will take long to go province wide... for all species.


you can't disagree with me that knowing that number would be a good thing, right?

[burger]

How many are killed by grizzly bears? how many are killed by black bears?? how many are killed by cougars?? how many are killed by wolves?? how many are dying from disease?? how many are drowning, being killed by falling trees, getting stuck in the mud?? ADD this up and there is one large number that nobody can figure out.

SO the only numbers that mean anything are actual live counts...you cannot manage a moose population by only looking at how many are taken by hunters....it won't work as there are too many variables.

Yes some things are left to estimation as we do not have the ability to count all moose killed by other predators or natural selection but it behooves us all and i mean all of to report honestly what is being taken. I really dont give a shit who wants to pretend their gonna manage themselves as it aint happening. Like cariboo_lou stated he saw where FN were asked to report...Asked?? This is where we are failing in the proper management of all our regions!!!!!


And yes a live count would be the best base point to have. Actually all hard numbers would be ideal and that would include hard numbers from FN. Shit we might find if they actually were honest in the reporting that all us "rednecks"as you termed us might be wrong and have to eat crow but with what many have seen in the bush along with myself there is a giant gaping hole of unknown and suspicion on the part of the FN and that causes animosity.

[steel_ram]

There's too many unknown variables. Those created directly by man shouldn't be unknown, but apparently those numbers of game taken by FN's are? Everyone harvesting wildlife and any natural resources for that matter, needs to be involved!
Predator populations move in a predictable fashion in relation to their food source. Wolves are no; building cities, mechanized hunters, retreating to heated campers and grocery stores when stocks are low. They are easy scapegoats though when so many are to pig headed to look at their own actions.

[GoatGuy]

How many are killed by grizzly bears? how many are killed by black bears?? how many are killed by cougars?? how many are killed by wolves?? how many are dying from disease?? how many are drowning, being killed by falling trees, getting stuck in the mud?? ADD this up and there is one large number that nobody can figure out.

SO the only numbers that mean anything are actual live counts...you cannot manage a moose population by only looking at how many are taken by hunters....it won't work as there are too many variables.

This has happened extremely quickly in one small area. If we were seeing it in neighbouring MUs, a long-term trend, etc, that would be different.

At this point the problem doesn't really matter, the solution is what we need to get figured out.

[Whonnock Boy]

Shit we might find if they actually were honest in the reporting that all us "rednecks"as you termed us might be wrong and have to eat crow but with what many have seen in the bush along with myself there is a giant gaping hole of unknown and suspicion on the part of the FN and that causes animosity.


That is as long as they cooperate and I sure hope they do because like i said earlier. "This would be one huge step in the right direction", and I don't think it will take long to go province wide... for all species.


The chances of true harvest numbers from the FN won't happen. You are dreaming if you think it will. Case in point would be the number of salmon the FN's take out of the Fraser. They are required to report the numbers but, many in the industry believe their numbers just scratch the surface.

[burger]

The chances of true harvest numbers from the FN won't happen. You are dreaming if you think it will. Case in point would be the number of salmon the FN's take out of the Fraser. They are required to report the numbers but, many in the industry believe their numbers just scratch the surface.

Oh I know it will never happen as the government and the rest of the ass kissers have made decisions that in reality have split the two sides further apart as we can never have a society that is controlled by two governments but i have to be falsely optimistic as I would be labelled as racist by the same people if I was not to assimilate. HaHa!!!

[steel_ram]

The chances of true harvest numbers from the FN won't happen. You are dreaming if you think it will. Case in point would be the number of salmon the FN's take out of the Fraser. They are required to report the numbers but, many in the industry believe their numbers just scratch the surface.

Then solid wildlife management will never happen, nor will goodwill occur between the user groups. Fingers will be pointed, bigotry will occur and the racial wildcard will be played. Back to square one. The continous fail. So far only one side has been winning, and it's not the wildlife, but it's only a matter of time that this well dries up. People are the problem.

[burger]

Then solid wildlife management will never happen, nor will goodwill occur between the user groups. Fingers will be pointed, bigotry will occur and the racial wildcard will be played. Back to square one. The continous fail. So far only one side has been winning, and it's not the wildlife, but it's only a matter of time that this well dries up. People are the problem.

Exactly!!!

[bushguy]

indians ,,,,,

[CanuckShooter]

You forgot sasquatch!:mrgreen:

No...if I had put him down someone would accuse me of hitting the bong again!! ;-)

[CanuckShooter]

You are stressing the point I am trying to make! Native kills is thrown in there with all of your points as a guess because we don't have any numbers. With little cooperation we can get numbers and pull them out of the pool of "what we will never know"! That is the only number we are capable of retaining! So why aren't we?

Well now in the Nass we are! That is as long as they cooperate and I sure hope they do because like i said earlier. "This would be one huge step in the right direction", and I don't think it will take long to go province wide... for all species.


you can't disagree with me that knowing that number would be a good thing, right?

I can't see how it could hurt to collect the data if you are able too.

[CanuckShooter]

The chances of true harvest numbers from the FN won't happen. You are dreaming if you think it will. Case in point would be the number of salmon the FN's take out of the Fraser. They are required to report the numbers but, many in the industry believe their numbers just scratch the surface.

And many in the industry are probably correct, sort of like the herring fishery & cash sales.....lots of those numbers probably just scratched the surface too?