Special Sheep Permits

[The Dude]

Allright, here's the deal.
There seems to be a lot of disagreement about the auctioned off tags for any sheep in BC.
So what are your thoughts?
Feel free to elaborate, as it's the off-season, and this should be fun.

[houndogger]

I think it's great way to generate a ton of money for the sheep!

[bowhunterbruce]

ok ,i'll be the first one.lol
its a good thing
ibtl
bhb

[Gateholio]

Don't we already have a thread on this?

[The Dude]

Yeah, but's not a POLL! :D

[guest]

Best way to help our wild sheep herds is through THIS AUCTION..... Hand down !

CT

[pg83]

I'm in full support of this auction. Residents have the same tag available to them for a $16 LEH card and we hardly generate 10% of the money that the auction does. I don't know of a better way to generate this money, but I am always open to new ideas. In the meantime, it's tough to argue with the success of the tag.

[huntwriter]

It's a great way to finance some of the cost for wildlife conservation. History has shown that hunters from across North America put the most money and effort back into habitat and wildlife conservation and it worked very well. It is that kind of success that made North American Wildlife Conservation a role model in the world. We're all (America and Canada) together in this and that is good so.

[ROEBUCK]

I vote no !

[dana]

I'm strongly for it. It could be expanded to include other critters as they do in many States. I do think that there would be interest in a Province Wide Muley Auction tag that allowed the hunter to hunt from Aug 1 through till Dec 31. And yes, we could compete against the likes of Ut when it comes to demand. As long as the tags were kept at a mininum and residents were able to put in bonus LEH's to have the same opportunity, I'd say lets look at the other critters and see how much money we can generate for our wildlife.

[srupp]

no..not unless 100% was guaranteed AND delivered UP FRONT to support wildlife IN EXCESS of whats normally mandated.. I can see the R&$$*&$*&$*&$(( govt cutting wildlife management by $240,000 once this money 'arrives ...if it ever does..

Really dont trust govt one bit...if its JUST a sell off ..NO...

steven

[.300WSMImpact!]

Bad idea for us resident hunters we will loose our hunting to big money one day and this is the start

[coach]

I read through all of the opinions and voiced my own on the (now closed) previous thread. I believe I understand the hesitation of those who don't support this auction. That said, the money raised through the sale of this permit is significant. The various stakeholders are involved in the decision to go ahead with the sale and the proceeds ARE going back into the resource. I support it, but believe we all need to get involved with our local clubs and the BCWF to ensure the fears of many don't become realities.

[dana]

Roebuck,
Why do ya think they cut the grizz hunts? Because they acheived harvest objectives last year when they handed out a ton more tags than normal. This is not an issue of them taking away hunter opportunity, this is just practicing proper management on a very harvest sensitive critter. No need for conspiracy theories.

[yama49]

I'm for it, as long as money is put back into wildlife..

[huntwriter]

It's not about selling off hunting on a large scale to the rich. Auctioning off one or two "special tags" per year in support of various wildlife species has been done for many years in North America. Such programs raise considerable sums of money in a very short time that otherwise would take years to generate from regular license sales. In the case of BC, where regular generated hunting revenue disappears in the general government coffers, such auctions are a good way to put money directly where it is needed.

I can't see that such auctions could lead to turn hunting into a "rich mans sport", as some fear here, because there are not that many rich people willing to spend every year upward of a quarter million dollars to hunt. It's more like that some wealthy hunters see this as a way to contribute money to a cause that concerns them as much as it does the "average Joe" and for that we all should be thankful.

[coach]

my thoughts exactly !
sure the money raised is great for the sheep !
but I can see this being the only way, you will get to hunt in bc in say 25 years from now !
they have cut the grizz hunt this spring by 18%
every year we get less opertunities as residents ! and big money hunts will only increase our losses,for the average resident hunter.
how long will it be until GENERAL OPEN SEASONS are a thing of the past !

I have to respectfully disagree, Roebuck. Perhaps you can put together a list of resident opportunities that have been taken away over the last few years. I'll compile a list of new opportunities - starting with the opening of antlerless WT GOS and WK Elk GOS. I have a suspicion my list will be longer. Of course, there will be a ton of bitching from resident hunters about how those new opportunities are bad for our animal populations. When grizzly LEH allocations drop, it's important that we take notice as these animals have the biggest potential to be managed for social rathe than scientific reasons. However, knowing the facts make for much better opinions. Remember that GO allocations will not increase when resident opportunities decrease.

[.300WSMImpact!]

I have to respectfully disagree, Roebuck. Perhaps you can put together a list of resident opportunities that have been taken away over the last few years. I'll compile a list of new opportunities - starting with the opening of antlerless WT GOS and WK Elk GOS. I have a suspicion my list will be longer. Of course, there will be a ton of bitching from resident hunters about how those new opportunities are bad for our animal populations. When grizzly LEH allocations drop, it's important that we take notice as these animals have the biggest potential to be managed for social rathe than scientific reasons. However, knowing the facts make for much better opinions. Remember that GO allocations will not increase when resident opportunities decrease.

I think the prof of the slipper slope we are going on comes from the south, all the good hunting opportunities are going away from residents, and are going to land owners and guide outfits. We have to watch how things are down there and make sure we DO NOT follow there lead, giving good opportunities to big money will only lead the politicians to lobby for money hunts, that is all they care about anyway money. Lets try and keep hunting NOT FOR PROFIT and for sustenance, heritage and a way of life.

[Ddog]

no..not unless 100% was guaranteed AND delivered UP FRONT to support wildlife IN EXCESS of whats normally mandated.. I can see the R&$$*&$*&$*&$(( govt cutting wildlife management by $240,000 once this money 'arrives ...if it ever does..

Really dont trust govt one bit...if its JUST a sell off ..NO...

steven

I'm with Steven on this one 100%

[dana]

Srupp,
The Special Sheep tag is not something new. These tags have been being sold for numerous years now. Has the government ever cut the wildlife budgets by the auctioned price in the past??? Why would they start now? As has been said on the other thread, this money goes dirrectly back to wildlife. No government cut. If it didn't go straight to wildlife, you can bet the WSS and BCWF would not be supporting these tags.

[Deaddog]

so because we don't trust gov't we should then turn our backs on 250000 dollars for wildlife??? the what if game can be played Forever, I have yet to hear one solid idea on how to replace these funds other than that those involved should just work harder??? REALLY...for those that don't know, the directors from WSS, BCWF and GOABC all volunteer thousands of hours per year to wildlife, hours taken away from our wives and kids....so easy for those that sit back and bitch to say that there is a better way ....but not come up with any solutions or get off their asses and help out..I don't care what organization you join but join one and much more than that do something for that organization other than join....Work for them , give some hours, make some calls....don't just send your money in and think that gives you the right to bitch about those that are willing to sacrifice for the sake of wildlife... I fully support this tag, I am not in any way worried that the government will take this money for other purposes.. Jim Glaicar

[Devilbear]

I respect your comments here, Jim and I have spent thousands of volunteer hours in conservation and intend to do more as my wife's health continues to improve. I honestly do not consider anyone here to be merely a bitcher and I wish that every hunter in BC would join the BCWF, but, we all know that ain't too likely to happen and I agree with Srupp, having been there, I do NOT trust governments, any of them.

[bruin]

Big money doesn't vote in this province, we do. No politician is going to risk the vote. I'm in favour of using this method to raise money for our wildlife. I would be open to using other auction tags for mule deer etc. as well.

[huntwriter]

I think the prof of the slipper slope we are going on comes from the south, all the good hunting opportunities are going away from residents, and are going to land owners and guide outfits. We have to watch how things are down there and make sure we DO NOT follow there lead, giving good opportunities to big money will only lead the politicians to lobby for money hunts, that is all they care about anyway money. Lets try and keep hunting NOT FOR PROFIT and for sustenance, heritage and a way of life.

This will and cannot happen here. The reason is that our province, or Canada for that matter, hast vast amounts of Crown land. America on the other hand is heavily populated with very little public land left to use for hunting. Very few outfitters in America hunt on the remaining public land. They have exclusive lease contracts with private landowners. The good "hunting opportunities" in America, with a few exceptions in the west, have always been on private land and the owners often charge a trespass fee for hunters.

[aggiehunter]

It's a no brainer that it's a good way to make money....but....shouldn't the government (ours) be looking after our wildlife....first it's hospital lotteries to make ends meet while the pensions for politicians get bigger and terms get shorter...we'll be fundraising for everything before you know...yah you know that road needs paving...better have a lottery...that's the problem.

[coach]

It's a no brainer that it's a good way to make money....but....shouldn't the government (ours) be looking after our wildlife....first it's hospital lotteries to make ends meet while the pensions for politicians get bigger and terms get shorter...we'll be fundraising for everything before you know...yah you know that road needs paving...better have a lottery...that's the problem.

While i understand your point, Aggie - Replace the word "government" with "taxpayers of British Columbia, whether they use the resource or not" and ask the question again. We are all guilty of throwing the "government" word out there as if it's an entity that exists separate from the rest of society.

[aggiehunter]

Coach, your right... all taxpayers should be footing the bill for wildlife...even birdwatchers and non=hunters should have to pay?

[.300WSMImpact!]

This will and cannot happen here. The reason is that our province, or Canada for that matter, hast vast amounts of Crown land. America on the other hand is heavily populated with very little public land left to use for hunting. Very few outfitters in America hunt on the remaining public land. They have exclusive lease contracts with private landowners. The good "hunting opportunities" in America, with a few exceptions in the west, have always been on private land and the owners often charge a trespass fee for hunters.

Look at Saskatchewan its happening there, Alberta is not far behind

[coach]

Coach, your right... all taxpayers should be footing the bill for wildlife...even birdwatchers and non=hunters should have to pay?

Sure, Aggie, all taxpayers should pay a reasonable amount for wildlife. People who live in the heart of Vancouver, work walking distance from their homes and don't own vehicles should contribute their tax dollars to pay for roads. People who don't have kids should contribute tax dollars to ensure we have a top notch public school system. There is a limit, however, to how much taxpayers can pay and how much money can go toward each important cause. When hospitals, roads, schools, etc take precedence over habitat concerns, virus, predation, etc and losing a herd hangs in the balance, money from sources like this can make the difference. You're concerned about fundraising? I'm concerned about paying an even higher percentage of my income out in taxes.

[coach]

You may also want to bear in mind that we have a National Debt of almost $580 billion http://www.debtclock.ca/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=1 and Provincial Debt of $45 million http://www.taxtips.ca/statistics/bcdebt.htm. Totaled, that's roughly $27,000 per BC resident.

[The Dude]

Lots of good comments on here. Othmar has a point about the land base in the US.

Continental USA has a population density of 94.84/sq mile, more than 10 x the people on a smaller land base. Canada has a density of 8.3/sq m, while BC's is 12.6/sq mi.

I'd also be in favor of Dana's idea of Mule deer/Elk tags on a limited 1 for 1 basis. Hell, let's auction off a WALRUS or three! We can hunt them for $5, but don't tell the Germans that. :D

Steven has a point as well. With tight budgets all the time (What did the Olympics cost us? The new Port Mann Bridge share?), can the Gov't Financiers say "Hey, these guys raise $2.5 a year from Sheep, Elk, and Mule Deer tags....let's cut that out of their budget"? Is this paranoia?

Also, where's FD and GG....who has the figures on total budget allocation for Wildlife management in BC?

[The Dude]

I must say I'm a little disappointed that 8 people chose the "Fence the whole Province" option...... that was a joke option as comedy relief, and was meant as such. Guess I'll have to put that in the "No" column for stats. As of this post, it's almost 4 to 1 in Favor of Permits. Pretty clear, even if I include the Fringe element of "Fencers" :D

[coach]

Also, where's FD and GG....who has the figures on total budget allocation for Wildlife management in BC?

Lots of interesting information in this: http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/data/qf.pdf

[coach]

An interesting article from 2007: http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/editorial/story.html?id=e97a8859-ecd2-42c3-ac28-62d6dc8ca6d4

[The Dude]

An interesting article from 2007: http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/editorial/story.html?id=e97a8859-ecd2-42c3-ac28-62d6dc8ca6d4

That's a GEAT Article....and in the Sun? Cool:


In British Columbia the annual operating budget of the fish and wildlife branch of the Ministry of Environment is approximately $12 million. Licenses and fees paid to the government by hunters generate almost $9 million, covering almost 75 per cent of the total budget for protecting and managing all fish and wildlife in this province.
Over and above that hunters contribute an additional $3 million annually to wildlife conservation through the Habitat Conservation Trust Fund in B.C. and Wildlife Habitat Canada nationally. Both of these funds were established as a result of lobbying by hunting and fishing organizations such as the B.C Wildlife Federation and Ducks Unlimited Canada.
Ducks Unlimited Canada, began operation in B.C. in the 1970s when its first budget was $1.2 million. For the past four years its contribution to B.C. wetland protection and enhancement has been $8 million a year, and it has secured 320,000 acres of critical wildlife habitat.




I suggest we all read it, it's what we all want to say for ourselves, backed up with numbers :D

[boxhitch]

.who has the figures on total budget allocation for Wildlife management in BC? You mean from the same Gov't that regularily applies to HCTF for funding to operate what would appear to be basic wildlife management functions like inventories, data processing, collaring, wildlife conflict mitigation, disease monitoring, habitat work, etc ? Those deep pockets ?

[oldkoot]

I agree with this program. Can not believe all the complaing about the " RICH ". In the free world, " MOST " of us had the chance to become what ever we wanted. Some have had things handed to them, but most have become wealthy by initiative, hard work and applying themselves, good on them. To complain about people that have made it , is like complaing about someone going to hunt in Alberta and it pisses you off because you do not have friends or family there. I hope this program contnues.

[.300WSMImpact!]

I agree with this program. Can not believe all the complaing about the " RICH ". In the free world, " MOST " of us had the chance to become what ever we wanted. Some have had things handed to them, but most have become wealthy by initiative, hard work and applying themselves, good on them. To complain about people that have made it , is like complaing about someone going to hunt in Alberta and it pisses you off because you do not have friends or family there. I hope this program contnues.

Um this is nothing to do about the rich

[huntwriter]

Look at Saskatchewan its happening there, Alberta is not far behind

There is lots of crown land in Saskatchewan and Alberta, but the best hunting is on private land and for this hunters have to gain permission and often pay a trespass fee, and why not. It's the same here around Merritt, more crown land then you can shake a stick at, but again most wildlife can be found on private ranch land for which you need access permission and often pay an access fee. this, however, has nothing to do with "selling out hunting" by auctioning off a tag or two. It has to do with land access and that is a different kettle of fish.

[Rackmastr]

There is lots of crown land in Saskatchewan and Alberta, but the best hunting is on private land and for this hunters have to gain permission and often pay a trespass fee, and why not. It's the same here around Merritt, more crown land then you can shake a stick at, but again most wildlife can be found on private ranch land for which you need access permission and often pay an access fee. this, however, has nothing to do with "selling out hunting" by auctioning off a tag or two. It has to do with land access and that is a different kettle of fish.

Its illegal to pay for access in Alberta, and although it happens, its a very rare occurance for the most part. Other than some outfitters attempting to tie up land or gain access to large tracts of land, there are simply a lot less instances of anyone paying anything in Alberta. Hell, I've hunted in almost all areas of Alberta on a TON of private stuff and its never even been suggested. I cant speak for Sask but from what I've seen there it wasnt an issue at all. But yep, like you said its something different when talking about paying for access and an auction tag.

[bruin]

Lots of interesting information in this: http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/data/qf.pdf

Interesting link, thanks

[The Dude]

Bad idea for us resident hunters we will loose our hunting to big money one day and this is the start


Um this is nothing to do about the rich

Uhmmmm....do you read any of your own posts?

[frenchbar]

lol thanks for the morning chuckle dude ...

[The Dude]

I live to make folks smile and think.
The Dude abides. :D

[oldkoot]

.300 impact,
Did you read any posts in the locked thread ???

Yah, no mention of rich Americans there.

[.300WSMImpact!]

Uhmmmm....do you read any of your own posts?

Its not about the rich from my perspective, its about keeping hunting "not for profit", hunting should be for sustenance and our hunting heritage.

[pg83]

Its not about the rich from my perspective, its about keeping hunting "not for profit", hunting should be for sustenance and our hunting heritage.

That is a beautiful thought, but one that cannot exist in our modern world. We are fortunate enough to live in arguably the best place on Earth for hunting in terms of our variety of game and opportunity to hunt. Most places don't even come close to what we have here. In many areas the only reason there is any hunting is because big money protects the wildlife and ensures that the next guy with deep pockets can come along and shoot something too. I believe that what we have in British Columbia is a good balance between resident hunting and outfitter hunting. It's not perfect, but few things are. As long as both sides are hunting most people will be happy. The animals should come first at the end of the day.

[bugler]

Consider why we need the money in the first place. Why have hunter numbers declined, resulting in less public interest in having sheep on the mountain for everyone to enjoy? Could it be, at least in part, that the image of the filthy rich getting to spend an obscene amount of money for such an opportunity sheds a bad light on our hunting heritage? Is this the kind of thing that we are asking Joe Taxpayer to support? Set em up so the extremely wealthy can knock em down?

From the outside looking in I can't help but think this does not promote the image of the honest hunter out to enjoy the outdoors and gather some organic food. This is really the only image of the modern hunter that the non-hunting public accepts as being legitimate. Hunting is full of less glaring examples, some of which I have been known to participate in (trophy banquets, for instance), that also run contrary to that image, but something like this really puts an exclamation point to it, in my opinion.

Overall, in the long run, I think it is a net loss for hunting. Hunting is not supposed to be one of those things that the very wealthy get special access to.

[dana]

Bugler,
We're talking sheep. They are not hunted for meat. They are a trophy animal. No ands, ifs, or buts about it. If hunters want more sheep on the mountain, they are going to have to get the money from somewhere else than the taxpayer's pocket.

[oldkoot]

Unfortunately there are people in the Koots treating them like meat animals. To prove they are these awesome sheep hunters, they shoot squeaker rams year after and get some taken away. This does not help quantity or quality. Oh yah, harvest does not affect populations. The price of addmission does however put money toward habitat enhancement and that is a good thing .

[coach]

Its not about the rich from my perspective, its about keeping hunting "not for profit", hunting should be for sustenance and our hunting heritage.

So you have absolutely no use for the GO business? Fair enough. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. In the case of this tag I have to ask; who exactly is profiting? Am I missing something here?

[sky-gunner]

There is no such thing as a perfect solution. But how else do you raise a quarter milsky in one night? I get the concerns that this could lead to the "selling off" of our game. It's seems a reasonable concern. But how else do we raise that kind of money for concervation? And someone correct me if I'm wrong but was the purchaser of this permit not Canadian? Maybe instead of arguing about wether or not this is right or wrong, we should all get together and brainstorm a better solution which we could present to the powers that be? It's just a thought. But I notice more often then not people with different points of view tend to battle over who's right rather then take the positives from both sides and come up with a compromise. Well all know conservation is of the utmost importance for what we love to do. But who here has a extra 250k lying around that you could donate towards natural resource stewardship? Nothing is perfect, but at least for the time being the money is going to the right place.

[bugler]

I think you hit the nail on the head sky, nothing is perfect. I, for one, do not profess to have a better solution. I just think the other side needs to be considered, perhaps this is motive enough for someone smarter than me to come up with a better way.

[bridger]

There is no such thing as a perfect solution. But how else do you raise a quarter milsky in one night? I get the concerns that this could lead to the "selling off" of our game. It's seems a reasonable concern. But how else do we raise that kind of money for concervation? And someone correct me if I'm wrong but was the purchaser of this permit not Canadian? Maybe instead of arguing about wether or not this is right or wrong, we should all get together and brainstorm a better solution which we could present to the powers that be? It's just a thought. But I notice more often then not people with different points of view tend to battle over who's right rather then take the positives from both sides and come up with a compromise. Well all know conservation is of the utmost importance for what we love to do. But who here has a extra 250k lying around that you could donate towards natural resource stewardship? Nothing is perfect, but at least for the time being the money is going to the right place.

well said!

[Devilbear]

After, the acrimonious and now locked thread concerning the foreign donations to sheep management here in BC, I did a little research as to who receives funding from the "Eastern Chapter of the Wild Sheep Foundation". I found, on their website, that most donations have been to organizations such as the GOABC and it's fellow GO's lobby groups in Alberta, the Yukon and the "Territories".

This, IMHO, tends to show that they are trying to make certain that they will be able to hunt Canadian wild sheep as they have assisted the groups involved in this and I do not see this as merely wanting to "help" manage the sheep. So, I am, at best, highly skeptical and am not in favour of such funding, as I previously posted. YMMV, but, that is how I see it.

[bighornbob]

After, the acrimonious and now locked thread concerning the foreign donations to sheep management here in BC, I did a little research as to who receives funding from the "Eastern Chapter of the Wild Sheep Foundation". I found, on their website, that most donations have been to organizations such as the GOABC and it's fellow GO's lobby groups in Alberta, the Yukon and the "Territories".

This, IMHO, tends to show that they are trying to make certain that they will be able to hunt Canadian wild sheep as they have assisted the groups involved in this and I do not see this as merely wanting to "help" manage the sheep. So, I am, at best, highly skeptical and am not in favour of such funding, as I previously posted. YMMV, but, that is how I see it.

You might want to use a calculator next time. Spent on guide and outfitting organizations (a little under 11,000 on 5 different groups). Total spent was a little over $67,000 and that included $7500 on Wild Sheep Society projects.

Also what is the money spent on. I see one is for "Ungulate Enhancement", this is usually wolf kill programs run by the outfitters. Also you have to realize its a give take world, outfitters donate hunts to thier cause and they donate to some outfitter cause. Without the outfitters hunts they might only make a few thousand dollars each year. Dont think they make all that money on knife or wall tent draws. Same with the wild sheep society, we get a lot of hunts donated to us.

BHB

[Jim 1367]

At the risk of "here we go again" after acrimonious and now locked thread as Devilbear puts it, I received a Pm from "the Dude" asking for more information about what we do. I am cutting and pasting my entire reply un-edited.

"Dude, My intention was not to set Devil bear off, although I have to admit maybe I did poke him a little with the "been in BC for 300 years" comment. Whether you guys have a tag is up to you, that is why I did not vote in the poll. That being said alot of good points were brought up about Govt. and their spending habits. What goes on in Utah is an example of a system run wild. The have multipule tags for many differnt species. I don't think anyone wants to see that in their state or province.

I have attached a link to our website. If you go to Grant in Aids at the top you should see a list of what we funded last year. We try and send what we can to various groups and we are changing our focus to "real on the ground projects" and will continue to do so. Our membership holds our feet to the fire as to where we send money and that is a good thing. You will also notice funding to GOABC. In a case like that we recieve a donation from a guide outfitter and they request a portion of the revenue goes to a specific group. If you look at the list there is another for a burn victim and that money came from a donation where it was specified where a portion of the money went.

If you look at the list you will also see a large contribution to"Camp Compass". That is a group here in PA that has a program which rewards kids by exposing them to the outdoors. These are kids, who because of circumstance would never have a chance to experiance what many of us take for granted. Last Year was our 20th anniversary and at our sat night Auction we had a custom knife engraved "20th anniversary ECWSF" we sold that knife for $11,000 ,had the buyer donate it back and sold it for $6,000 more. The buyers knew where the money was going and that was in addition to what they had spent already.

When I hear the constant bitching about rich Americans it does piss me off a bit. Probably because I scrimp and save to be able to do what I do. So do alot of friends of mine. None of us are in the position to buy these tags but I do appreciate those who can.

Sorry to go on so long but we are proud of what we do and the money we raise. We are a small but dedicated group and that is probably why I get a little defensive.

www.ecfnaws.org (http://www.ecfnaws.org/)

Jim"


I will stand on our record anytime with any one. At least we are making a contribution

[Devilbear]

I don't require a calculator to do simple arithmetic in my head and I merely pointed out where some of their donations went; I leave it to others to decide for themselves what they feel concerning the "altruism" of the GOs and the group I mentioned.

[coach]

Great post, Jim. Your efforts are appreciated.

[mark]

I havnt read the replies.....but if one ram killed, generates a ton of cash, that puts 10 more on the mountain......then we all win!

[Deaddog]

At the risk of "here we go again" after acrimonious and now locked thread as Devilbear puts it, I received a Pm from "the Dude" asking for more information about what we do. I am cutting and pasting my entire reply un-edited.

"Dude, My intention was not to set Devil bear off, although I have to admit maybe I did poke him a little with the "been in BC for 300 years" comment. Whether you guys have a tag is up to you, that is why I did not vote in the poll. That being said alot of good points were brought up about Govt. and their spending habits. What goes on in Utah is an example of a system run wild. The have multipule tags for many differnt species. I don't think anyone wants to see that in their state or province.

I have attached a link to our website. If you go to Grant in Aids at the top you should see a list of what we funded last year. We try and send what we can to various groups and we are changing our focus to "real on the ground projects" and will continue to do so. Our membership holds our feet to the fire as to where we send money and that is a good thing. You will also notice funding to GOABC. In a case like that we recieve a donation from a guide outfitter and they request a portion of the revenue goes to a specific group. If you look at the list there is another for a burn victim and that money came from a donation where it was specified where a portion of the money went.

If you look at the list you will also see a large contribution to"Camp Compass". That is a group here in PA that has a program which rewards kids by exposing them to the outdoors. These are kids, who because of circumstance would never have a chance to experiance what many of us take for granted. Last Year was our 20th anniversary and at our sat night Auction we had a custom knife engraved "20th anniversary ECWSF" we sold that knife for $11,000 ,had the buyer donate it back and sold it for $6,000 more. The buyers knew where the money was going and that was in addition to what they had spent already.

When I hear the constant bitching about rich Americans it does piss me off a bit. Probably because I scrimp and save to be able to do what I do. So do alot of friends of mine. None of us are in the position to buy these tags but I do appreciate those who can.

Sorry to go on so long but we are proud of what we do and the money we raise. We are a small but dedicated group and that is probably why I get a little defensive.

www.ecfnaws.org (http://www.ecfnaws.org/)

Jim"


I will stand on our record anytime with any one. At least we are making a contribution

well said Jim, personal thoughts aside, I am sure the sheep appreciate your efforts as do a lot of BC resident hunters.. Jim

[The Dude]

I'm glad YOU posted it Jim, because as I said, I was tempted to. :D
Once again, thanks for all the hard work you and your fellow members do to help sheep in the West.
Cheers,
Chris

[Devilbear]

Let the American post whatever the "mods" will allow him to, this will not alter the situation among the citizens of BC, concerning how they feel about foreign hunters here. One indication of this is how some of the supposed "locals" were so antagonistic to other BC hunters coming to the West Kootenays when the 2010 elk GOS opened.

An ironic and amusing aspect of that situation was that I know quite a number of the most extreme protestors and have for 40+ years, as many of them were on various crews I managed and they are AMERICANS.........

So, as more BC voters become aware of certain statistics, a favourite on HBC and of the issues with access and other problems where GOs are involved with American hunters, I suspect that the current situation will change, rapidly, by public demand.

[Deaddog]

I think the poll speaks for itself as far as resident hunters and their position on this issue

[The Dude]

I think it has. The Pro-Limited Auction group out numbers the Con, and the Fringe groups combined by almost 3 to 1.
The membership has spoken.
The Chicken Littles are in a small, delusional minority.
Nice to see people realize that nothing happens in a vacuum.

[Devilbear]

I think the poll speaks for itself as far as resident hunters and their position on this issue

There are 4.5 millon people in BC and about 90,000 resident hunters.......an HBC poll has about as much resonance with Victoria, as Americans have rights in BC.

[bridger]

There are two separate issues surrounding the special sheep tag. One is conservation and enhancement of our sheep populations. the other is politics. In my view as resident hunters we should support the tag as it is a great program that provides funding that otherwise is not available. The political arguments ( and I have heard them all at the table) are generally superficial and should be left for another day.

[Devilbear]

There are few, if any members of HBC, for whom I have the great respect that I have developed for you in the time that I have participated here. I completely understand WHY you and Jim Glaicar, feel as you do and in many very sincere, gutlevel ways, I wish that I could agree, however, I prize honesty above all other human virtues, except compassion and courage and I simply do not and cannot.

I have very sound reasons, that have evolved over more than 50 years of intense interest in, study of, working in and care for BC's natural environment and I do not make my comments here lightly or in some attempt to offend others. I simply feel, very strongly, that any activity that involves the allocation of a part of BC's resources MUST be totally administrated HERE in BC.

I will not reiterate my comments concerning the American attitude to Canadian-BC resources and I will ignore further comments mocking my family background, as I hardly have to defend it, especially from some foreigner. I also think that there ARE alternatives to this situation, AS IT NOW STANDS and I hope and trust that we BC citizen-hunters will find these and the next provincial administration will implement them.

Simply put and NOT to initiate any further "flame wars", IF the majority of BC people actually KNEW that one of our rare wild sheep was being auctioned off to a wealthy and usually foreign bidder for a "trophy" in the USA, I think that the issue could quickly become a major "cause celebre" in the popular media and in the vote-rich urban areas where BC political decisions are actually made. So, politics IS a crucial and probably a determining aspect of this entire affair.

I can think of other ways in which this could be done and would certainly support an alternative means of raising $$$ for wildlife, as NO party in power is going to cut health care to help wildlife, not in this lifetime!

[bighornbob]

Simply put and NOT to initiate any further "flame wars", IF the majority of BC people actually KNEW that one of our rare wild sheep was being auctioned off to a wealthy and usually foreign bidder for a "trophy" in the USA, I think that the issue could quickly become a major "cause celebre" in the popular media and in the vote-rich urban areas where BC political decisions are actually made. So, politics IS a crucial and probably a determining aspect of this entire affair.

This tag is nothing new and everytime it brings in big dollars there are news stories on it and other then the main story you read or hear nothing else about it. Here in Kamloops they had a news clip on the radio about the auction of tag and how much money was raised. There was no mention of how people felt about it only how much money was raised for wild sheep. There have also been no letters to the papers protesting this as usually happens when something hits the radio waves that people are upset about.



I can think of other ways in which this could be done and would certainly support an alternative means of raising $$$ for wildlife, as NO party in power is going to cut health care to help wildlife, not in this lifetime!

What are some of these ways??? Although the sheep got $240,000 from the auction they can always use more. I am curious to see what you have come up with. Maybe some of it can be used for other wildlife?

BHB

[Mr. Dean]

Allright, here's the deal.
There seems to be a lot of disagreement about the auctioned off tags for any sheep in BC.
So what are your thoughts?
Feel free to elaborate, as it's the off-season, and this should be fun.

If the People of the resource aren't willing to 'Pony Up' required funding, then something NEEDS to be done and this tag does exactly that; Funding the ensurance of wildlife for you and me, us cheap-assed residents.

I'll leave the: if this, if that, to the ones that are paranoid.

[6616]

. I simply feel, very strongly, that any activity that involves the allocation of a part of BC's resources MUST be totally administrated HERE in BC.

I think we would all agree to the above statement DB, but as far as I can see this program is completelly and totally administered and under full and ultimate control of the BC government. Yes it's auctioned in Reno because that's where the potential buyers gather for the annual sheep convention, but the Wild Sheep Foundation has no say in the administration of the program, where the revenue is spent, or how the resource is allocated. I see the Sheep Foundation as an international conservation entity with many British Columbian and Canadian members as well as American and European members.

[The Hermit]

I read through all of the opinions and voiced my own on the (now closed) previous thread. I believe I understand the hesitation of those who don't support this auction. That said, the money raised through the sale of this permit is significant. The various stakeholders are involved in the decision to go ahead with the sale and the proceeds ARE going back into the resource. I support it, but believe we all need to get involved with our local clubs and the BCWF to ensure the fears of many don't become realities.

What he said!

[The Dude]

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/shades_of_green/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Devilbear http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/shades_of_green/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=1082172#post1082172)
I can think of other ways in which this could be done and would certainly support an alternative means of raising $$$ for wildlife, as NO party in power is going to cut health care to help wildlife, not in this lifetime!




What are some of these ways??? Although the sheep got $240,000 from the auction they can always use more. I am curious to see what you have come up with. Maybe some of it can be used for other wildlife?

BHB

Did he really say that? I have him on Ignore, so I don't have to read his "input".

OK Dewey, you put your foot in it again: How would you raise comparable funds without "pimping off" one sheep to "Foreigners"?
I'm looking forward to hearing your ideas to help, instead of just criticize.
I'm just as curious as BHB and, I'm sure, most posters on this thread.

[91Jason91]

great way to get money I guess

[fireguy]

I can't believe we are even arguing about this. There is one tag auctioned off to the highest bidder at a place where the bid will be high. We all get two opportunities to get the same tag, we can go bid on it or we as residents can apply for the draw. If this tag was put up for auction at the williams lake or Kelowna fish and game dinner it would get nowhere near the revenues that are obtained at a convention where the people there have the money to put up.

So us residents get one tag, one is auctioned off. The money goes to a good cause, I'm sure if anyone wanted to check you could find out exactly where it all goes through the freedom of information act. I suggest those sceptical probably should.

Two sheep each year get shot, lots of money is raised. Two sheep in all of B.C. Usually the hunters that get this draw are hunting the biggest, oldest ram they can. Here is a question for you guys, how many big, old rams die each year from either old age or predators? Two sheep a year is not going to hurt the sheep population in any way at all but the money brought in sure will help it a great deal.

Two sheep per year, and one goes to a resident and all this nonsense about americans ruining our hunting because of it. Sell your house and go buy the other tag if you think keeping one more sheep per year for resident hunters is so important.

[The Dude]

There's only one really arguing about it, if you notice. The others are saying they're against it because it sets a dangerous precedent, but they will readily and humbly admit that they don't have any better ides.
If only everyone could be that realistic.
One can dream.

[Devilbear]

I can't believe we are even arguing about this. There is one tag auctioned off to the highest bidder at a place where the bid will be high. We all get two opportunities to get the same tag, we can go bid on it or we as residents can apply for the draw. If this tag was put up for auction at the williams lake or Kelowna fish and game dinner it would get nowhere near the revenues that are obtained at a convention where the people there have the money to put up.

So us residents get one tag, one is auctioned off. The money goes to a good cause, I'm sure if anyone wanted to check you could find out exactly where it all goes through the freedom of information act. I suggest those sceptical probably should.

Two sheep each year get shot, lots of money is raised. Two sheep in all of B.C. Usually the hunters that get this draw are hunting the biggest, oldest ram they can. Here is a question for you guys, how many big, old rams die each year from either old age or predators? Two sheep a year is not going to hurt the sheep population in any way at all but the money brought in sure will help it a great deal.

Two sheep per year, and one goes to a resident and all this nonsense about americans ruining our hunting because of it. Sell your house and go buy the other tag if you think keeping one more sheep per year for resident hunters is so important.

...sell your house..., maybe this might be your idea of volunteer conservation activities, but, I kinda doubt that most BC citizens would agree. Why is it, that people here cannot discuss an important issue concerning BC's resource allocations, without resorting to inane, snide comments such as this?

It is not about ...one more sheep..., etc. and the implication is simply ludicrous.

Since, we are going off on a tangent and making such foolish comments, how about, "I think that we should privatise all of our emergency services, such as police, firefighters and so forth and thus break the public sector unions and cut the high wages these people get from we taxpayers. We could just put fire services out to tender and probably just hire those willing to work for $12.00 per hour.

This, is obviously ridiculous, but, it makes more sense than your foolish comment.

[Devilbear]

I think we would all agree to the above statement DB, but as far as I can see this program is completelly and totally administered and under full and ultimate control of the BC government. Yes it's auctioned in Reno because that's where the potential buyers gather for the annual sheep convention, but the Wild Sheep Foundation has no say in the administration of the program, where the revenue is spent, or how the resource is allocated. I see the Sheep Foundation as an international conservation entity with many British Columbian and Canadian members as well as American and European members.

I am tired of the asinine remarks by some here and will just reply to this and am done.

Simply put, the same thing can be said and is true of "Greenpeace", "ForestEthics", "The Sierra Club", "PETA" and on and on, even the group(s) now attempting to end hunting in BC's Flathead Valley, an area I am quite familiar with, are largely based in foreign nations, primarily the US and staffed by foreigners. The same issues apply, but, there are so many more citizens who object to the selling of a BC sheep in a foreign country.

Anyway, I have expressed my opinion on this and am not going to spend further time on it.

[fireguy]

...sell your house..., maybe this might be your idea of volunteer conservation activities, but, I kinda doubt that most BC citizens would agree. Why is it, that people here cannot discuss an important issue concerning BC's resource allocations, without resorting to inane, snide comments such as this?

It is not about ...one more sheep..., etc. and the implication is simply ludicrous.

Since, we are going off on a tangent and making such foolish comments, how about, "I think that we should privatise all of our emergency services, such as police, firefighters and so forth and thus break the public sector unions and cut the high wages these people get from we taxpayers. We could just put fire services out to tender and probably just hire those willing to work for $12.00 per hour.

This, is obviously ridiculous, but, it makes more sense than your foolish comment.

As far as selling your house, I agree most BC citizens would agree that it would be a silly idea, just like I'm sure most BC citizens would agree that auctioning off one tag a year to raise money for wildlife instead of using taxpayer money is a good thing. You have to remember that when the non-resedent buys this tag they also bring a lot of money into BC that goes elsewhere as they have to hire a guide just to do the hunt and we all know a sheep hunt is not cheap for them.

As far as the personal attack, kinda funny, I am a paid on call firefighter, have been for 20 years, if I made $12.00 per hour for the time I put in it would be a very nice raise.

Who has the foolish comment now?

[bighornbob]

I am tired of the asinine remarks by some here and will just reply to this and am done.

Anyway, I have expressed my opinion on this and am not going to spend further time on it.

We realized you have expressed your opinion, but you still never answered my question on other ways of raising money???? In the locked thread you said you wanted a civilized conversation. So I posed some questions which in a conversation should be answered. It is easier to make your point or your opinion valid if you answer questions to make the other person see your point.

BHB

[bighornbob]

For those that have not seen where the money goes here is the information from the 2005-06 year. It was the first year I found searching the net.


Special Permits Fund Projects for 2005-06

The Foundation for North American Wild Sheep and the Province of British
Columbia have signed agreements regarding special permits for wild sheep and
Roosevelt elk. From that agreement, a British Columbia Special Permits Fund
has been established within the Habitat Conservation Trust Fund. This account is
to be used primarily for enhancement and conservation projects involving wild
sheep, Roosevelt elk and their habitats in British Columbia. Surcharges from
sales to residents of Special Limited Entry Authorizations for wild sheep and for
Roosevelt elk also contribute revenue to these special accounts.

WILD SHEEP ACCOUNT
Kootenay

• Noxious Weed Control on Bighorn Sheep Winter Ranges – $15,000 in
funding to improve the quality of bighorn sheep winter ranges by
conducting an intensive and consistent noxious weed control program on
documented sites within the East Kootenay Trench. To be carried out by
the Ministry of Water, Land and Air Protection.

Rocky Mountain Bighorn Sheep Transplant: Monitoring – $5,000 in
funding to aerially monitor 10-15 radio-collared bighorn sheep, which were
transplanted from Radium/Stoddart to Premier Ridge in late winter 2005.
To be carried out by the Ministry of Water, Land and Air Protection.

Cariboo

• West Fraser Road California Bighorn Sheep Signage – $5,000 in
funding to provide road signage on West Fraser Road to reduce wildliferelated
accidents and mortality to the northernmost herd of California
bighorn sheep to help increase herd size. In partnership with the Quesnel
Rod and Gun Club.

• Churn Creek California Bighorn Sheep Habitat Restoration – $22,500
in funding provided to help restore California bighorn sheep habitat and
enhance the grassland ecosystem by removing conifer encroachment
through mechanical means and prescribed fire. To be carried out by the
Ministry of Water, Land and Air Protection.

• Churn Creek Sheep Migration Corridor Ecosystem Restoration Plan –
$17,900 in funding. The project will develop an ecosystem restoration plan
for the Churn Creek California Bighorn Sheep Migration Corridor, which
provides critical habitat for sheep migrating between winter and summer
habitat. To be carried out by the Ministry of Water, Land and Air
Protection.


Omineca/Peace

• Skeena-Omineca-Peace Thinhorn Sheep Range Mapping and Herd
Registry – $20,000 in funding will be used for the application of meta-data
of current use by thinhorn sheep on 1:250,000 range maps and
completion of herd registries for the northern portion of the province. To be
carried out by Ecodomain Consulting.

Okanagan

• Restoration of Bighorn Sheep Metapopulation-South Okanagan –
$55,000 in funding. In 1999/2000, a die-off of California bighorn sheep in
the South Okanagan eliminated 70 per cent of the population. This project
will attempt to restore the population and safeguard it from future
epizootics. To be carried out by the Ministry of Water, Land and Air
Protection.

• Okanagan Mountain Park Bighorn Transplant – $5,000 in seed funding
to develop a problem analysis and more comprehensive plan for the
proposed transplant of California bighorn sheep into Okanagan Mountain
Provincial Park. To be carried out by the Ministry of Water, Land and Air
Protection.


South Slope Bighorn Lamb Recruitment – $5,000 in seed funding to
undertake the background work to determine the full scope of this project
to monitor California bighorn sheep lamb production and survival to
update work done 20 years ago. To be carried out by the Ministry of
Water, Land and Air Protection.

ROOSEVELT ELK ACCOUNT
Vancouver Island

• Vancouver Island Roosevelt Elk Relocation Project – $10,950 in
continued funding for the capture, relocation and monitoring of
transplanted Roosevelt elk on Vancouver Island to enhance elk
distribution and abundance, and address agricultural conflicts and human
safety issues. To be carried out by the Ministry of Water, Land and Air
Protection.


BHB

[fireguy]

Thank you bighornbob, of all the projects mentioned above I can only comment on one personally, the Okanagan Mountian Park transplant which has been done since this was funded and that herd is doing well. The sheep in there are doing great and they probably wouldn't even be in there without the funding from this initative.

Like you said, without a realistic funding alternative none of these projects would get done with the money issues that the province has currently.

[The Dude]

Dewey: What's your idea? You're so quick to insult others it makes me ill. And then you cry "innocent".
What's your idea Dewey?
Put up or shut up forever more.

Put your money where your mouth is Dewey. Let's rock!

[Devilbear]

AFG, it WAS NOT a personal attack, I just wanted to make a point by using an obviously extreme and foolish example. so, don't take it personally, as it I did not intend it that way.

[Devilbear]

Dewey: What's your idea? You're so quick to insult others it makes me ill. And then you cry "innocent".
What's your idea Dewey?
Put up or shut up forever more.

Put your money where your mouth is Dewey. Let's rock!

I thought that you were ignoring me and now you seem intent on stirring up some rather nasty sh*t? OK, if you want to ...rock..., have at 'er, I will put you on "Ignore" and when I am ready to post some of my ideas concerning conservation, I shall initiate a thread and do so. I do not respond to implicit threats, demands or immature rants like yours, capiche?

[The Dude]

I thought that you were ignoring me and now you seem intent on stirring up some rather nasty sh*t? OK, if you want to ...rock..., have at 'er, I will put you on "Ignore" and when I am ready to post some of my ideas concerning conservation, I shall initiate a thread and do so. I do not respond to implicit threats, demands or immature rants like yours, capiche?

And, of course, as usual: You have absolutely nothing positive to add.
Where are these "implicit threats", "demands", and "Immature rants" of which you speak?
You quite clearly stated that you were against the status quo, and that you had a better idea. I, and I'm sure everyone on this thread, would love to hear it. You mistake a sincere request for information as an "implicit threat", then there's something wrong with the way you see the world.
Speaking of "Immature rants", I have some PMs you sent to a friend of mine.
They provide quite an insight into your true character.

[The Dude]

If the People of the resource aren't willing to 'Pony Up' required funding, then something NEEDS to be done and this tag does exactly that; Funding the ensurance of wildlife for you and me, us cheap-assed residents.

I'll leave the: if this, if that, to the ones that are paranoid.

And that's exactly the point. The naysayers never have a solution, they just seem to come to the table to complain, and never seem to want to make things better. THIS is a logical solution to our present lack of funding for resource management.
Good post MrD

[sky-gunner]

And, of course, as usual: You have absolutely nothing positive to add.
Where are these "implicit threats", "demands", and "Immature rants" of which you speak?
You quite clearly stated that you were against the status quo, and that you had a better idea. I, and I'm sure everyone on this thread, would love to hear it. You mistake a sincere request for information as an "implicit threat", then there's something wrong with the way you see the world.
Speaking of "Immature rants", I have some PMs you sent to a friend of mine.
They provide quite an insight into your true character.

Its useless dude. DB believes in his black little lonely heart that he is smarter and superior to everyone one this site. Don't waste your time looking for him to respond with anything positive. Hes to busy feeling himself up and insulting others to do that. The poll is a valid insight as to how the majority of hunters in bc feel, and i think if you were able to poll everyone who hunts in bc, you would see much the same results. Its too bad we cant, then DB, could truly see how alone he is.

[The Dude]

Its useless dude. DB believes in his black little lonely heart that he is smarter and superior to everyone one this site. Don't waste your time looking for him to respond with anything positive. Hes to busy feeling himself up and insulting others to do that. The poll is a valid insight as to how the majority of hunters in bc feel, and i think if you were able to poll everyone who hunts in bc, you would see much the same results. Its too bad we cant, then DB, could truly see how alone he is.

I just got a threatening PM from him. It has been forwarded to the mods. My altruistic side feels sorry for him, but he's allowed to ruin this site and bully people for some unknown reason. He's jeff with a Thesaurus.
Hopefully the mods will do the right thing and he'll be gone soon, and we can get back to the business of talking hunting and BSing each other, like old times.

[sky-gunner]

Agreed, some people just don't get it. Be nice if he was banned, wannabe elitist's are the worse kind. And it does kinda ruin the site, its hard to have a intelligent debate when you have some lonely ass**** doing whatever he can to sound smart and oppress other peoples opinions. Even going as far as to insult people from other countries who spend there money here and help raise funds for our wildlife. He can read the dictionary all he wants, but its clear who's ignorant here.
This thread is supposed to be about sheep, and the raising of funds to protect them, and aid in conservation in general, from what i have seen, there's only one guy who's not getting that. I guess some people just didn't get enough hugs growing up. Now about them sheep, anyone who's opposed to the raffle have any positive suggestions on how to raise 250k? Perhaps the BCWF hire some peelers and donate the lap dance proceeds ? :) Everyone wins there lol

[Mr. Dean]

anyone who's opposed to the raffle have any positive suggestions on how to
raise 250k?



It should read year after year..... Not just 250k.

[coach]

It should read year after year..... Not just 250k.

Yup. According to one reputable report, it's now $3,000,000 over the last several years. That's a lot of bake sales!

[Mr. Dean]

That's a lot of bake sales!


That's a lot of Lap Dances!

[sky-gunner]

It should read year after year..... Not just 250k.

Your absolutely right mr dean. It would be fantastic if we could as a community raise that much money every year. And 3,000,000 is not chump change. Like I said before this may not be a perfect solution, as rarely they exisit, but I think it's pretty damned positive that that kind of money is going into conservation.

[Elkhound]

Had to step in......thread should stay on topic now.......I hope

[Mr. Dean]

I gotta 50 dolla bill to donate to the HCTF, if the 2 of you give me a lappy and post it on YouTube. :lol:

[The Dude]

It's over. Back on to hunting and fishing and shooting and the like, I hope.

[NNS]

That's a lot of Lap Dances!
Pretty sure that there isn't enough lap dancers in Canada to raise 3 mil..
Sadly I think we would have to import same yanks, Asians, and maybe even some Russians..



And to those of you who facilitated in what just happened, THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!

[kevan]

And to those of you who facilitated in what just happened, THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!![/QUOTE]

X2!!!!

[The Dude]

All thanks go to the Mods, who have the sometimes thankless task of policing this site, and keeping us honest.

Back on track, anyone have any ideas on how to raise this much cash for hunting? It beats me.
A similiar lottery as we have in Canada, but based in the US, or International? That might be a thought.
Do it on the Internet? Worldwide?

[Elkhound]

Almost all of us are on HBC for the Hunting and Fishing and love of the outdoors. Those here for other reasons show it and goodbye to them.

[srupp]

hmmm I DO trust Deaddog and his reasuurance is good enough for me...as well Steve Dana has some great points..can understand my "hesitance" but there are some great trustworthy folks keeping eye on the $$$$ so it gets back to the sport and the animals.

Steven

[bighornbob]

Back on track, anyone have any ideas on how to raise this much cash for hunting? It beats me.
A similiar lottery as we have in Canada, but based in the US, or International? That might be a thought.
Do it on the Internet? Worldwide?

Thats the kicker, it's a lot of cash with very minimal work done each year to get it. Its not like a truck raffle where you have to get a ton of volunteers peddling tickets everyday to maybe raise $25,000 over three months. To make the big bucks you have to be selling/rafflling something special that people want. That is why I dont think animals like grizzly or mule deer would bring in that much. You cant hunt them else where alot cheaper and bigger animals. And if every state province did mule deer that would drive the prices down. And to make the big money it has to be pitched to the guys that have big money and at a location where they are, hence in Vegas or Reno at the Sheep Show. One look at how much is raised on the Special sheep LEH for residents, it is pretty obvious that tags like this have to be done in the states or to a international crowd. Also when you have a tag auctioned off at a public event (like the sheep show) you get guys bidding it up and trying for it just to prove their worth. I am sure the animals of North America have benifitted quite nicely because of two guys trying to prove who has the biggest d**k in the building.

BHB

Like someone said a Kermode tag would bring in the big bucks:):)

[bighornbob]

hmmm I DO trust Deaddog and his reasuurance is good enough for me...as well Steve Dana has some great points..can understand my "hesitance" but there are some great trustworthy folks keeping eye on the $$$$ so it gets back to the sport and the animals.

Steven

Nothing is ever guarenteed but there are some pretty good safeguards with these tags.

1) It needs input and support from the bios, GOABC, WSSOBC and BCWF. If one group is unhappy the tag gets pulled, as has happened with the elk tag.

2) A representative from each group sits on the board that decides where and how the money is spent.

3) Money goes into a special fund which is part of the HCTF. I remember the initial talks among the Sheep Society about the tag and the big concern from members was if the money went into the general coffers we would never see it. That is why the special fund was created.

4) The seller (the Wild Sheep Foundation (formally FNAWS)) is also a conservation based group that looks out for sheep. I would bet my hunting rifle that they would stop selling the tag if the WSSOBC told them that the BC Government is using the money for general revenue purposes. Without the tag sold down there, the tag price would drop 10 fold.

BHB

[6616]

It should read year after year..... Not just 250k.

The permit doesn't bring a 1/4 Mil every year, as a matter of fact this is the first year it has. Average has been from 90K to 150K, but for quite a few years now and that's lots of dough...! Probably more than 3M total since it's been going on for 10 years or so.

Don't know how come it went so crazy high this year - the right bidders,,,, right place, right time...? Who knows..?

[bugler]

Back on track, anyone have any ideas on how to raise this much cash for hunting? It beats me.
A similiar lottery as we have in Canada, but based in the US, or International? That might be a thought.
Do it on the Internet? Worldwide?

Maybe all them altruistic benefactors of the sheep could put in for the lottery with the rest of us. The really dedicated (and rich) could buy 10G worth of tickets each, would only need 2 dozen at that rate. Wealth would buy better odds but no guarantee of winning, anybody could win. This would make me happier but likely unrealistic, as I suspect most of the guys going for the tag are less motivated about kicking in to help the sheep than they are about getting that tag. Still, if you can afford 1/4 mil for a sheep hunt, what's 10G on a chance at the same hunt?

OK, dreaming, I know.

How about pitch in at the local level, lobby government to make sheep and other wildlife a bigger priority for funding, write your MLA, and buy a few sheep lottery tickets yourself. Baby steps.

[bugler]

Don't know how come it went so crazy high this year - the right bidders,,,, right place, right time...? Who knows..?

You forgot "right sheep?". I'm thinking there is a good chance bidders were shown photo's of something special before bidding started.

Wasn't there, just speculating on one possible contributing factor.....

[bighornbob]

Maybe all them altruistic benefactors of the sheep could put in for the lottery with the rest of us.

There is a lottery for us that non-residents cant enter and we get the same hunt as the auction winner, so I dont really get your point.


How about pitch in at the local level, lobby government to make sheep and other wildlife a bigger priority for funding, write your MLA, and buy a few sheep lottery tickets yourself. Baby steps.

The Wild Sheep Society of BC has been doing this for 15 years and although we have made huge strides since the first 5 guys decided there should be a dedicaded group that looks out for the sheep. We still dont have the money to get all the sheep projects done that we would like. Are you a member?????


BHB

[bighornbob]

You forgot "right sheep?". I'm thinking there is a good chance bidders were shown photo's of something special before bidding started.

Wasn't there, just speculating on one possible contributing factor.....


I am thinking the high 170's stone sheep taken with a bow last year had something to do with it.

BHB

[6616]

hmmm I DO trust Deaddog and his reasuurance is good enough for me...as well Steve Dana has some great points..can understand my "hesitance" but there are some great trustworthy folks keeping eye on the $$$$ so it gets back to the sport and the animals.

Steven

A couple times over the years the gov has tried to hi-jack the HCTF (HCTF administers the sheep fund) and divert it to the Minister of Finance for distribution (general revenue).

The watchdogs in BCWF, GOABC, WSSOBC, UBBC, etc are vigilant and constantly on guard and will never let this happen. It used to be called the HCF and following the last hi-jack attempt (by the NDP) it was made into a trust fund and renamed the HCTF. The trustees all come from appropriate stakeholder groups and universities, not from government, and are all volunteers.

The HCTF and sheep fund is more secure than ever before and about as secure as anything can be in this modern dog eat dog political era.

[coach]

Glad to see this conversation back on track. Great posts, 6616 and BHB! Great to see Srupp reconsider his original position. Thanks, Dude, for starting and sticking with the thread.

[bugler]

There is a lottery for us that non-residents cant enter and we get the same hunt as the auction winner, so I dont really get your point.

The Wild Sheep Society of BC has been doing this for 15 years and although we have made huge strides since the first 5 guys decided there should be a dedicaded group that looks out for the sheep. We still dont have the money to get all the sheep projects done that we would like. Are you a member????

BHB

Point is, maybe it should be a lottery for non res too.

I thank and applaud those involved at any level to contribute to our lifestyle. I personally am quite involved with coaching archery and promoting the hunting lifestyle that way. You are active with WSS, that's great. Different priorities but both working to benefit hunters.

[Buck]

A couple times over the years the gov has tried to hi-jack the HCTF (HCTF administers the sheep fund) and divert it to the Minister of Finance for distribution (general revenue).

The watchdogs in BCWF, GOABC, WSSOBC, UBBC, etc are vigilant and constantly on guard and will never let this happen. It used to be called the HCF and following the last hi-jack attempt (by the NDP) it was made into a trust fund and renamed the HCTF. The trustees all come from appropriate stakeholder groups and universities, not from government, and are all volunteers.

The HCTF and sheep fund is more secure than ever before and about as secure as anything can be in this modern dog eat dog political era.

Perhaps a point system the more you donate the better your odds.It may be possible to have many more bidders involved this way.And hell lets make it a tax refundable.
Is the draw in Reno available to online bidding as well or only those in person?

[Jim 1367]

Great discussion and nice to see it back on the subject. I have NO dog in this fight but as an OUTSIDE observer may I point out a few things:


Maybe all them altruistic benefactors of the sheep could put in for the lottery with the rest of us. The really dedicated (and rich) could buy 10G worth of tickets each, would only need 2 dozen at that rate. Wealth would buy better odds but no guarantee of winning.

Bugler, If you look at the Alberta website the was a argument lately about "Albertans" buying large amounts of raffle tickets in their own raffle. Quite a few people were not happy that there was not a limit on how many tickets someone can purchase.

I do not remember how much money was raised by your resident lottery but to raise the kind of money generated by the auction tag it would seem there would have to be one heck of alot of tickets sold. Whether via internet or some other fashion it would take manpower to run this. The other issue which may discourage non res ticket buyers is you would still have to hire a guide/outfitter if you were a non resident.Not a bad thing ,just another issue. Don't get me wrong I would buy as many chances as I could afford but even using the numbers quoted of 90k to 150k that seems like a bunch of work. When you look at the other option of selling one tag one time would it be worth the hassle?

The other issue is that of trust. I trust my politicians and govt about as far as I can throw them. You seem to have a pretty good set up in the way your auction funds are disbursed. The checks and balances seem to be in place and if I read this correctly when they did try and pull a fast one it was caught and steps were put in place to prevent it from happening again. So if you TRUST the watchdogs and you have a system in place that works what is wrong.

I don't beleive the sheep care whether the help they receive is in Loonies or Ben Franklins.Supposedly this year it was a Canadian who purchased the tag. The goal is to provide for their well being,Period.

Just to be clear I have no dog in this fight. I have never bought a tag, will never be able to buy a tag but I do like seeing all that money going to on the ground projects in BC, AB and all the states that have tags

Just my observation
Jim

[dana]

These tags go for high dollars because of Big Animals. Most of the time when the tag goes high it is because a really big animal has been found and this makes the demand for that tag go higher. This is why they can sell tags like this in many states and provinces. The only way you would see other tags such as mule deer and elk fetch even close to that amount is if someone knew of an absolute giant and had pictures to show the bidders. This is why states like AZ and UT can sell mule deer tags for the same price as we just sold the sheep tag for. Even without an absolute giant, these tags could fetch well over 50 thousand just because you would have extended season dates like Aug1 through Dec 31 which would increase your chances at taking a well above average animal.

The only idea I would have that could generate more money into our wildlife is if we opened things up even more than they are right now. You could easily do a Non-resident Loto on top of the Non-resident Auction. If you opened up a set number of tags for site specific areas and allowed non-residents the opportunity to hunt here DIY without a guide if they were lucky in the draw, you could probably sell a whack of LEH cards for a good price like $75-100 a piece. The desire is there for non-residents to hunt here. The fact they need a guide is a deterant for the average joe to do it. Give them a chance in the lotto and you can bet, you'll sell a bunch of applications that could further help our wildlife.

[The Dude]

Yup, Dana, that was my original point in the re-launch :D
I bet an International Lottery would raise 500K to a Mil, easy. Dana has a good idea in the site-specific tags, limiting harvest to well-defined areas.
Another advantage would be that someone that popped $50-100 on a Lotto has a good chance of NOT using the non-transferable tag :mrgreen: than would someone that sayyyy....plinked down $250K. Such a person would also most likely not be so Booner-Centric, if you get my meaning.
The possible downside is the Anti's getting ahold of an International Game Sell Off, or however they'd portray it. I think that's a small risk though, seeing as you can buy animals off game farms and go on Safari for less, so it should keep this idea on a much lower key.
It could also be done on the Internet, so administration costs would be low. All money to the HCTF, etc.

Jim, welcome back! Why so defensive? lol (And just MHO, but if you work with a Club that raises money to help Sheep in BC, you DO have a dog in this hunt). On that note, thx for all the nice posts, and all the PMs from you guys. (Wow!) :oops:

Just a question, BHB, Dana, 6616, you guys should know this: say a HUGE Ram is found in one drainage, and pics are taken. The pics are used as an incentive for bidders. Winning bidder finds and takes sheep home for dinner.
OK, no problem, but what if you're the GO, and this sheep is in your territory? Does the GO get anything, or just the cash that (in part) goes to GOABC?
If I was a GO, and found a Booner++ Ram in my area, it would make me wanna zipper it. Thoughts? Just my two bits.

[coach]

Just a question, BHB, Dana, 6616, you guys should know this: say a HUGE Ram is found in one drainage, and pics are taken. The pics are used as an incentive for bidders. Winning bidder finds and takes sheep home for dinner.
OK, no problem, but what if you're the GO, and this sheep is in your territory? Does the GO get anything, or just the cash that (in part) goes to GOABC?
If I was a GO, and found a Booner++ Ram in my area, it would make me wanna zipper it. Thoughts? Just my two bits.

If I understand things, the hunter who purchases this tag in the auction still has to hire the GO additional to the cost of the tag. On top of that, I'd think that a guy willing to shell out $250g's for a tag would take care of his GO quite nicely for guiding him into a record book sheep.

[bighornbob]

I would bet that most of the better outfitters have lists of hunters that they can call at a moments notice if a big ram is spotted, for a substantial finders fee:)

I would also bet that if a photo of a big ram is being passed around, that the ram is actually on winter range. So for the most part the ram would not be able to be hunted during the regular season or the ram comes out of some hidey hole for the rut. So the outfitter basically gets a freebie as hE would not normally get the ram. The auction winner only gets a tag, he still has to hire a outfitter to take him. So an outfitter that has a big ram on winter range is basically selling his knowledge of the ram.

Bhb


Just a question, BHB, Dana, 6616, you guys should know this: say a HUGE Ram is found in one drainage, and pics are taken. The pics are used as an incentive for bidders. Winning bidder finds and takes sheep home for dinner.
OK, no problem, but what if you're the GO, and this sheep is in your territory? Does the GO get anything, or just the cash that (in part) goes to GOABC?
If I was a GO, and found a Booner++ Ram in my area, it would make me wanna zipper it. Thoughts? Just my two bits.

[The Dude]

Does he still have to pay the $35K (or going rate) for the hunt?

[dana]

The auction tag holder has the choice of what outfitter he wants to hire and pays the going outfitter rate unless he cuts a special deal with that outfitter. These hunts are beyond their regular clients timeframes too. Not your average 10 dayer. Could be more or could be less depending on how difficult it is to get the animal killed, ie when the ram walks across the border. ;) If a outfitter wants in on the money the guy is throwing around, plus the glory of having that big ram killed in their outfit, it would be in their best interest to locate the biggest and the baddest in their territories and market them. That's pretty much how the Yanks do it in the Western state's auctions. Down there they of course aren't restricted to a particular area like our outfitters. And there can be more than one outfitter watching the same animal. Can be more of a foot race. The animals killed are normally found in hard to draw OIL areas, so the locals can't hunt the animals even in their own backyards. So there is also a lot of locals willing to sell out the animals in their areas so they can collect a Finder's Fee. Don't think you'd get much of that in BC as we have GOS in many of the same areas so why would you sell out an animal you could possibly find and kill next year yourself with an over the counter tag?

[6616]

Just a question, BHB, Dana, 6616, you guys should know this: say a HUGE Ram is found in one drainage, and pics are taken. The pics are used as an incentive for bidders. Winning bidder finds and takes sheep home for dinner.
OK, no problem, but what if you're the GO, and this sheep is in your territory? Does the GO get anything, or just the cash that (in part) goes to GOABC?
If I was a GO, and found a Booner++ Ram in my area, it would make me wanna zipper it. Thoughts? Just my two bits.

I believe this may be the reason why the Roosevelt tag no longer exists, there was something about outfitters demanding compensation if the bull came from their territory, and subsequently the MOE and BCWF refusal to buy into that idea as it implies ownership of a public resource. There's no doubt there's pitfalls with these tags, they require careful and thoughtful administration to make sure nothing goes awry and compromises have to be made by all stakeholders for the betterment of the resource.

[fireguy]

I would bet that most of the better outfitters have lists of hunters that they can call at a moments notice if a big ram is spotted, for a substantial finders fee:)

I would also bet that if a photo of a big ram is being passed around, that the ram is actually on winter range. So for the most part the ram would not be able to be hunted during the regular season or the ram comes out of some hidey hole for the rut. So the outfitter basically gets a freebie as hE would not normally get the ram. The auction winner only gets a tag, he still has to hire a outfitter to take him. So an outfitter that has a big ram on winter range is basically selling his knowledge of the ram.

Bhb

I think you are right in this, the knowledge of a huge ram would get the bids way up there. There is no guarentee that the ram pictured will be there the following year having to go through a winter, a spring and a hunting season before the buyer was able to get on the ram the following year in the wintering range.

That said, how much do you think someone would shell out for the chance at one of these two beauties.

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x477/fireguy4/hunting/bigstones.jpg

[The Dude]

That said, how much do you think someone would shell out for the chance at one of these two beauties.

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x477/fireguy4/hunting/bigstones.jpg

Ummmmmm....my left nut? :D Pic is yours? Wow!

BHB: Good point about the "Preferred Customer list. Makes perfect sense.

[The Dude]

The auction tag holder has the choice of what outfitter he wants to hire and pays the going outfitter rate unless he cuts a special deal with that outfitter. These hunts are beyond their regular clients timeframes too. Not your average 10 dayer. Could be more or could be less depending on how difficult it is to get the animal killed, ie when the ram walks across the border. ;) If a outfitter wants in on the money the guy is throwing around, plus the glory of having that big ram killed in their outfit, it would be in their best interest to locate the biggest and the baddest in their territories and market them. That's pretty much how the Yanks do it in the Western state's auctions. Down there they of course aren't restricted to a particular area like our outfitters. And there can be more than one outfitter watching the same animal. Can be more of a foot race. The animals killed are normally found in hard to draw OIL areas, so the locals can't hunt the animals even in their own backyards. So there is also a lot of locals willing to sell out the animals in their areas so they can collect a Finder's Fee. Don't think you'd get much of that in BC as we have GOS in many of the same areas so why would you sell out an animal you could possibly find and kill next year yourself with an over the counter tag?

Excellent point Dana. It gives the GO a shot at a ram that they might never get a good chance at in the regular season, they share the glory, and can market the crap out of it.
When you put it that way, I can see certain GOs under certain winter range conditions being downright eager to have a chance to participate in this publicity windfall. Throw in a Camera Crew and a TV show, and Bob's your Uncle. ;-)

[Jim 1367]

Jim, welcome back! Why so defensive? lol (And just MHO, but if you work with a Club that raises money to help Sheep in BC, you DO have a dog in this hunt). On that note, thx for all the nice posts, and all the PMs from you guys. (Wow!) :oops:
Thanks Dude. Defensive, me? Maybe because the swelling is just going down, LOL. The reason I say I don't have a dog in this fight is a decision like this should be made by the people who it directly effects,the residents. That being said I would buy tickets In a heart beat. It could possibly be the best opportunity for someone to get the ram of a lifetime.

Thanks for all you did.

[The Dude]

Thanks Dude. Defensive, me? Maybe because the swelling is just going down, LOL. The reason I say I don't have a dog in this fight is a decision like this should be made by the people who it directly effects,the residents. That being said I would buy tickets In a heart beat. It could possibly be the best opportunity for someone to get the ram of a lifetime.

Thanks for all you did.

Good point Jim. Some people REALLY resent outside influence, it seems. :D
Of course, if you're going to donate funds raised to preserve Wild Sheep, you should have a voice. Maybe not Executive Powers, *Ahem* but certainly the power of helpful suggestion. You're pretty cool for a Damn Yankee :mrgreen:
YVW ;-) Glad to help as always.
The Dude Abides.

[fireguy]

Ummmmmm....my left nut? :D Pic is yours? Wow!

BHB: Good point about the "Preferred Customer list. Makes perfect sense.

Those sheep are long dead, probably dead from old age because I would think that they would have made headlines if they were taken by a hunter. They were photographed on winter range. The point is showing a picture like this to the right group at the right place might generate a whole lot of money for the tag but there is a lot of variables with it as well like you won't be able to hunt them till next year.

Dude you would give your left nut, what would someone with lots of money pay?

Picture is just a picture of another picture that I took because I don't think I will ever see a stone that is bigger than one of these no matter how many trips I go on.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Those sheep are long dead, probably dead from old age because I would think that they would have made headlines if they were taken by a hunter. They were photographed on winter range. The point is showing a picture like this to the right group at the right place might generate a whole lot of money for the tag but there is a lot of variables with it as well like you won't be able to hunt them till next year.

Dude you would give your left nut, what would someone with lots of money pay?

Picture is just a picture of another picture that I took because I don't think I will ever see a stone that is bigger than one of these no matter how many trips I go on.


I'm sure they are long gone but I believe it was a no hunting area where they were hanging out.

SSS

[Elkhound]

Good point Jim. Some people REALLY resent outside influence, it seems. :D
Of course, if you're going to donate funds raised to preserve Wild Sheep, you should have a voice. Maybe not Executive Powers, *Ahem* but certainly the power of helpful suggestion. You're pretty cool for a Damn Yankee :mrgreen:
YVW ;-) Glad to help as always.
The Dude Abides.

Get a room

[The Dude]

Get a room

Ouch! Try to be nice to a neighbour, and whaddya get for it? :grin:
But it's OK, D you ARE My favourite Mod now, after all. :mrgreen:

[The Dude]

Those sheep are long dead,........ I don't think I will ever see a stone that is bigger than one of these no matter how many trips I go on.

Stones? If given that pic and asked what type of sheep they are I would have said "Rockies". Esp the one on the right, with the mass and tight curl close to the head, tan-brown coats etc.
But then agaiin I'm no "Sheep-Spurt" :D

[fireguy]

Stones? If given that pic and asked what type of sheep they are I would have said "Rockies". Esp the one on the right, with the mass and tight curl close to the head, tan-brown coats etc.
But then agaiin I'm no "Sheep-Spurt" :D

Yes they are both stone sheep and both very big ones, I have often wondered which one I would shoot if I had to pick.

[The Dude]

They're both very impressive for different reasons, I think. I'll take the one you pass on, how's that? :D

[bridger]

These are indeed stones!this picture was taken many years ago by moe bio's doing winter counts in a closed area that at the time held a small population of stones.

[The Dude]

Not there anymore? What's the area? PM me if it's some Big Secret. ;D

[guest]

As Bridger said Those ARE STONES not Roclies ..... the white face with combined dark coat should be a tell tale sign ..... they do come in many variations of colour.

CT

[The Dude]

Ya gotta admit, guys. If you were shown a pic of just the one one the right............ Just sayin.
Thx for the info. Esp Bridger, Cheers.

[ianwuzhere]

Those are definatley a couple hawg stones!!
I would be curious as to how much could be raised for one of the tags,
I think it could raise a lot of money from some rich person which could be usefull money to put back into say sheep counting etc...