Shuswap and Boundary Mule Deer Surveys

[Fisher-Dude]

Results are in:

MU 8-23 Shuswap:

26 bucks : 100 does
58 fawns : 100 does


MU 8-15 Boundary:

35 bucks : 100 does
54 fawns : 100 does



These are spectacular counts!

And the conclusions:

"Post-hunt composition data collected in MU 8-23 since 2010 confirms that we are meeting our hunting regulations objectives of 20 bucks: 100 does and hunting bucks is not negatively impacting the mule deer population in this MU.


Post-hunt composition data collected in MU 8-15 since 2010 confirms that we are meeting our hunting regulations objectives of 20 bucks: 100 does and buck hunting is not negatively impacting the mule deer population in this MU. "

[lovemywinchester]

Hey FD. Am I wrong in thinking deer populations should be 50/50 male female. Like humans. Nature balances and all that. Is that way off?

[Fishhound]

That is good to see indeed

[Fisher-Dude]

Hey FD. Am I wrong in thinking deer populations should be 50/50 male female. Like humans. Nature balances and all that. Is that way off?

Yep, you're way off. Mortality of males in natural environments is far higher than females, so species have evolved to have one male service several females.

Mule deer are managed in BC to have a minimum 20 bucks per 100 does. This ratio includes representative bucks of various age classes, and not all will breed. This ratio also manages for other values besides conservation, such as wildlife viewing. Mule deer can drop to about 5 - 8 : 100 before there is a sperm supply issue and conservation concern.

[MCBuckmaster]

Where did you get this info?

[ROEBUCK]

thats good !

did they count moose at the same time ?

[Fisher-Dude]

Where did you get this info?

From the bios that did the surveys.


thats good !

did they count moose at the same time ?

There is a comprehensive moose inventory of every region 8 MU being compiled right now.

But, the incidental results in these mule deer counts were included, keeping in mind that deer winter range is not moose winter range.

Moose counts were 10 bulls, 10 cows, and 5 calves in 8:15 and 2 bulls, 7 cows, and 3 calves in 8-23. Not enough to estimate sex ratios.

Elk were 63 : 100 in 8-15, calf : cow were 33 : 100. 23 elk were counted in 8-23 with 12 cows, 5 bulls, and 6 calves.

Sheep rams : ewes were 65 : 100, lambs : ewes at 41 : 100.

Whitetails weren't classified but 71 were observed in 8-15 and 66 in 8-23.

[BuckEye]

Mortality of males in natural environments is far higher than females, so species have evolved to have one male service several females.


I've been preaching this to the wifey for years, but she just doesn't buy the science or even remotely entertain the idea.

[lovemywinchester]

Interesting. Thanks.

[Snowpatrol]

How many deer did they count .. ?? Period. Not projected numbers.. Actual visually counted.

[goatdancer]

What will this mean for seasons and limits in the future?

[Fisher-Dude]

How many deer did they count .. ?? Period. Not projected numbers.. Actual visually counted.

Look what the dog dragged in.


There ya go again... You got a problem with me ??? GFY

GFY right back atcha.

[Fisher-Dude]

What will this mean for seasons and limits in the future?

These two MUs were rumoured by "local anecdotal opinion" to have poor buck : doe ratios, and a proposal was put forward to curtail buck seasons in MU 8-15. I don't think that's at all necessary now that the survey results indicate excellent ratios.

[Snowpatrol]

Look what the dog dragged in.



GFY right back atcha.


hahaha.. FD You're awesome... Loads of class.. I'm over it.. I think for that comment I got banned for a couple days.. Maybe after a year.. You should be too..

Don't you know the answer to my question ?? Why are you avoiding the question ?? Just askin !

[Fisher-Dude]

Your friends at GOABC will have the survey. Ask them for a copy.

Any resident hunters that are interested in the deer count sample size can PM me and I'll answer it for them.

[6616]

Yep, you're way off. Mortality of males in natural environments is far higher than females, so species have evolved to have one male service several females.

Mule deer are managed in BC to have a minimum 20 bucks per 100 does. This ratio includes representative bucks of various age classes, and not all will breed. This ratio also manages for other values besides conservation, such as wildlife viewing. Mule deer can drop to about 5 - 8 : 100 before there is a sperm supply issue and conservation concern.

The above is correct. Even the unhunted populations in the National Parks rarely have buck ratios higher than 50 bucks per 100 does (1 buck per 2 does).

Great news Pat, thanks for passing that on.

Snowpatrol: The overall numbers don't really matter that much in a composition survey as long as a sufficient sample size was attained to get representative ratios at a useful confidence interval. If that occurred the Branch will be satisfied and call it a successful survey. The objective of a composition survey is to determine ratios and not overall populations. A stratified random block full scale population inventory would take a much more detailed and extensive survey and would cost a sh_t load of cash, probably never see that happen in BC for deer.

I'm willing to guess the East Kootenay surveys would have yielded higher buck ratios if they had waited until this time of year when there was some snow to move the bucks down to winter ranges.

[BCrams]

I'm willing to guess the East Kootenay surveys would have yielded higher buck ratios if they had waited until this time of year when there was some snow to move the bucks down to winter ranges.

Also the bucks that holed up in thick timber to recover from the rut also started moving and going into a feeding pattern.

[Fisher-Dude]

Andy, I've emailed the survey to ya.

[Snowpatrol]

The above is correct. Even the unhunted populations in the National Parks rarely have buck ratios higher than 50 bucks per 100 does (1 buck per 2 does).

Great news Pat, thanks for passing that on.

Snowpatrol: The overall numbers don't really matter that much in a composition survey as long as a sufficient sample size was attained to get representative ratios at a useful confidence interval. If that occurred the Branch will be satisfied and call it a successful survey. The objective of a composition survey is to determine ratios and not overall populations. A stratified random block full scale population inventory would take a much more detailed and extensive survey and would cost a sh_t load of cash, probably never see that happen in BC for deer.

I'm willing to guess the East Kootenay surveys would have yielded higher buck ratios if they had waited until this time of year when there was some snow to move the bucks down to winter ranges.

True.... however if in previous years they counted lets use 2000 deer for a number and this year they counted 400... That may bring up the point of the overall population declining ? Thats all I was after.. but it seems that FD has a bit of a personal problem with me.. I'm over it ! He hold grudges it appears !

[ROEBUCK]

I have a question ?

whats the differance between deer winter range, and moose winter range ?
im thinking the deer will winter on south facing slopes down lower ?
but were will the moose winter ?
thanks

[GoatGuy]

8-23 = 318 md
8-15 = 211 md

No need for secrets.

All the results of these flights show is that the lower or declining mule deer numbers as compared to history have nothing to do with hunting. The sex ratios are very good. Next (real) things to deal with are habitat or mortality (predation, cars, fences etc) if we want more deer.

Hopefully we can all get on the same page and start worrying about making more deer, instead of constantly dealing with hunting regulations that will have no impact on the deer population.

[6616]

Also the bucks that holed up in thick timber to recover from the rut also started moving and going into a feeding pattern.

Yup, there was no snow here at all to speak of up until 10 days ago.

[6616]

Andy, I've emailed the survey to ya.

Thanks Pat.

[Snowpatrol]

Thanks Goatguy. You're are correct.. I think we have a few problems to deal with other than just hunting,... I do think with these times of the declining muledeer we should adjust our harvest... but hey.. thats just my opinion ! One problem I'm seeing right now is with the timber companies.. They are harvesting a lot of douglas fir stands and then they replant with pine.. So they're taking a great winter range of fir and turning it into pine trees.. we all know that the muleys need the big fir ridges.. Thats just one of the many issues.. but we all have to notice that are mule deer are declining ! Buck to doe ratio's aren't the B all end all that tells us how the population is overall. Thanks

[GoatGuy]

Thanks Goatguy. You're are correct.. I think we have a few problems to deal with other than just hunting,... I do think with these times of the declining muledeer we should adjust our harvest... but hey.. thats just my opinion ! One problem I'm seeing right now is with the timber companies.. They are harvesting a lot of douglas fir stands and then they replant with pine.. So they're taking a great winter range of fir and turning it into pine trees.. we all know that the muleys need the big fir ridges.. Thats just one of the many issues.. but we all have to notice that are mule deer are declining ! Buck to doe ratio's aren't the B all end all that tells us how the population is overall. Thanks

If we were harvesting does that might be the case, we aren't.

The discussion about hunting regulations needs to go out the window if we're ever going to generate any forward progress on wildlife populations. Otherwise we'll sit there and argue about regulations and never get anything done.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Also the bucks that holed up in thick timber to recover from the rut also started moving and going into a feeding pattern.

In the southern interior they're now trying to get the surveys done before Dec 10 when the bucks are still hanging with the does. Makes them easier to find and they won't tend to miss batchelor groups that may skew their data...as can happen later in the season.

SSS

[aggiehunter]

We certainly need to enhance wildlife habitat...does anybody know Eddy Matchlite....but if ya'll think hunting has no impact on deer and their social structure then that's a different problem altogether.

[dana]

SSS,
If that is the case they should be targeting Nov 10-20. That is the peak of the rut. The big boys hit the thick $hit long before Dec. Hardest time to find the older bucks is Nov 20-Dec 5th. That 2 week window is when they are holed up and healin up. After Dec 5 they start moving into their winter patterns and feeding heavily to put the weight back on. If there is little to no snow, they will do that in the thick timber types to avoid the predation of the open country. Predators know they are weak and will target them if they join up with the 'herds'. That is why they stay put in that thick stuff until they have their strength back again.

[hunter1993ap]

SSS,
If that is the case they should be targeting Nov 10-20. That is the peak of the rut. The big boys hit the thick $hit long before Dec. Hardest time to find the older bucks is Nov 20-Dec 5th. That 2 week window is when they are holed up and healin up. After Dec 5 they start moving into their winter patterns and feeding heavily to put the weight back on. If there is little to no snow, they will do that in the thick timber types to avoid the predation of the open country. Predators know they are weak and will target them if they join up with the 'herds'. That is why they stay put in that thick stuff until they have their strength back again.
i find nov 20-dec 10 some of the best time to find big mule deer. i dont live in regeon three, but if i could have used a rifle in that time period i could have killed a couple hawg mule deer.

[dana]

When I was talking about predation after the rut, I was also refering to the two legged predators. Human hunting pressure will keep them in that timber longer as will heavy wolf pressure. You might not be in a heavy wolf area. Most years, moose really make big moves during that timeframe as well. This means the wolves are making big moves too.

[hunter1993ap]

makes sense and ya thers minimal wolves.

[GoatGuy]

We certainly need to enhance wildlife habitat...does anybody know Eddy Matchlite....but if ya'll think hunting has no impact on deer and their social structure then that's a different problem altogether.

Expecting a few finger pointers, anti-sciencers, and hecklers.

Hopefully a very small minority; too many years of the same old do nothing, get nothing done, complain about everybody else, approach.

Appreciate the honesty - good to know moving forward.

[Fisher-Dude]

The last few years in 8-15 we have heard:

OMG! They opened GOS elk in October, now the mule deer will get hammered during any buck!

OMG! They opened GOS whitetailed does in October, now the mule deer will get hammered during any buck!

And it turns out the mule deer bucks have an astronomical 35 : 100 ratio after 4 years of elk and 2 years of does.

This "sky is falling" bullshit is the very reason that listening to the aggiehunters and GOABCs of the world is the wrong thing to do. Stick with the science of deer management instead - it's best for the deer, and best for hunting too.

[6616]

SSS,
If that is the case they should be targeting Nov 10-20. That is the peak of the rut. The big boys hit the thick $hit long before Dec. Hardest time to find the older bucks is Nov 20-Dec 5th. That 2 week window is when they are holed up and healin up. After Dec 5 they start moving into their winter patterns and feeding heavily to put the weight back on. If there is little to no snow, they will do that in the thick timber types to avoid the predation of the open country. Predators know they are weak and will target them if they join up with the 'herds'. That is why they stay put in that thick stuff until they have their strength back again.

I agree, it's either do it early (right after hunting season) or do it late (mid December). In the southern interior there's often a wide discrepancy from year to year in snow cover making consistent and desireable survey conditions difficult. Migration timing to winter range is inconsistent as well, this year there was no snow at all and many deer did not move to winter ranges until mid January (just starting to see deer now). Also sightality without snow is poor and hurts confidence intervals. Then there's the changing behavior patterns caused by wolves. It's altogether a very difficult task when flight time and budgets preclude doing more than a weeks work one time per season. If they had the budget to go out again this week in 4-03 after all the snow we've had lately I'd be willing to bet the numbers would be remarkedly different. Next year they might be able to start a little earlier, I hear they are considering closing the season on Nov 10th in the EK.

[91Jason91]

Hey FD. Am I wrong in thinking deer populations should be 50/50 male female. Like humans. Nature balances and all that. Is that way off?

there are more female than male humans in life also by the way
and those are very good odds

[hunter1947]

This count is very good I have to agree you can't get it any better then that..

[boxhitch]

Good numbers to hear.
Now to figure out what the problems are IF the overall population is down.

I'm sure some of the deer sightings have changed during the hunting season due to the changes in hunter traffic. I've seen guys out putting through blocks on quads where no one used to get to on foot.
You can bet the deer learn to avoid the conflict, and stay out of sight.

[SHAKER]

Expecting a few finger pointers, anti-sciencers, and hecklers.

Hopefully a very small minority; too many years of the same old do nothing, get nothing done, complain about everybody else, approach.




Oh I love this.......... Can I borrow this for my morning discussions in the shop? It's perfect!

[SHAKER]

The last few years in 8-15 we have heard:

OMG! They opened GOS elk in October, now the mule deer will get hammered during any buck!

OMG! They opened GOS whitetailed does in October, now the mule deer will get hammered during any buck!

And it turns out the mule deer bucks have an astronomical 35 : 100 ratio after 4 years of elk and 2 years of does.

This "sky is falling" bullshit is the very reason that listening to the aggiehunters and GOABCs of the world is the wrong thing to do. Stick with the science of deer management instead - it's best for the deer, and best for hunting too.

Except for some name singling out this is right on!

LET THE $#!% STORM BEGIN.

[CanuckShooter]

The last few years in 8-15 we have heard:

OMG! They opened GOS elk in October, now the mule deer will get hammered during any buck!

OMG! They opened GOS whitetailed does in October, now the mule deer will get hammered during any buck!

And it turns out the mule deer bucks have an astronomical 35 : 100 ratio after 4 years of elk and 2 years of does.

This "sky is falling" bullshit is the very reason that listening to the aggiehunters and GOABCs of the world is the wrong thing to do. Stick with the science of deer management instead - it's best for the deer, and best for hunting too.

You forgot OMG the natives are raping and pillaging killing everything in sight......;-)

I totally agree with GoatGuy in #25.....pay attention to what is important.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

SSS,
If that is the case they should be targeting Nov 10-20. That is the peak of the rut. The big boys hit the thick $hit long before Dec. Hardest time to find the older bucks is Nov 20-Dec 5th. That 2 week window is when they are holed up and healin up. After Dec 5 they start moving into their winter patterns and feeding heavily to put the weight back on. If there is little to no snow, they will do that in the thick timber types to avoid the predation of the open country. Predators know they are weak and will target them if they join up with the 'herds'. That is why they stay put in that thick stuff until they have their strength back again.

Sounds good to me...but what percentage of the buck population to the "the big boys" make up? Pretty small I imagine..but there's certainly no problem erring on the side of caution. So the buck:doe ratio is perhaps a little better...by certainly not worse.
All good.

I'll forward you the report, Steve.

SSS

[GoatGuy]

Good numbers to hear.
Now to figure out what the problems are IF the overall population is down.

I'm sure some of the deer sightings have changed during the hunting season due to the changes in hunter traffic. I've seen guys out putting through blocks on quads where no one used to get to on foot.
You can bet the deer learn to avoid the conflict, and stay out of sight.

Wolves have probably pushed deer and moose around as well.

Personally don't doubt the md population is lower than the 90s and certainly lower than historic populations. We haven't managed habitat in a fire maintained ecosystem. We have sheep populations which were once huntable virtually dissapear, other populations that have rebounded at lower densities. We aren't managing predators, we have more highways, increased vehicle traffic running critters over. Some of the migratory routs have been fenced off with no reasonable attempt at mitigation. Winter range damage from over-browsing, cattle, atvs, dirt bikes, people in general and on and on and on. With the cumulative effects of all those issues I don't think we should expect anything other than declining wildlife populations.

[boxhitch]

buzz kill

Personally don't doubt the md population is lower than the 90s and certainly lower than historic populations. We haven't managed habitat in a fire maintained ecosystem. We have sheep populations which were once huntable virtually dissapear, other populations that have rebounded at lower densities. We aren't managing predators, we have more highways, increased vehicle traffic running critters over. Some of the migratory routs have been fenced off with no reasonable attempt at mitigation. Winter range damage from over-browsing, cattle, atvs, dirt bikes, people in general and on and on and on. With the cumulative effects of all those issues I don't think we should expect anything other than declining wildlife populations. Keep your 'little head' up, and just make sure there is no sperm shortage, all will be good

[dana]

GG,
Lower than the 90's? Wasn't the big die off in 96? You've had nothing for winters and are just starting to see wolves. Why would your numbers be worse than the big die off years? I don't buy it.

[boxhitch]

Early 90s were great, 96 97 were rough, downhill from there on.

[dana]

When did the Connector get finalized? Late 80's right? That fence pretty much screwed up the one of the biggest migrations in the province. I was there in the early 90's. Don't tell me it was great then. The year the fence was put up, tons of deer hit it on their way down in the fall and pounded it back and forth trying to find a way through. They knew they had to go low or else they'd die so they turned around and went to the winter ranges in the Region 3 side. I spent a ton of time on that winter range both before and after that fence. The deer numbers were never the same after that.

[Bc Deer Hunter]

Results are in:

MU 8-23 Shuswap:

26 bucks : 100 does
58 fawns : 100 does


MU 8-15 Boundary:

35 bucks : 100 does
54 fawns : 100 does



These are spectacular counts!

And the conclusions:

"Post-hunt composition data collected in MU 8-23 since 2010 confirms that we are meeting our hunting regulations objectives of 20 bucks: 100 does and hunting bucks is not negatively impacting the mule deer population in this MU.


Post-hunt composition data collected in MU 8-15 since 2010 confirms that we are meeting our hunting regulations objectives of 20 bucks: 100 does and buck hunting is not negatively impacting the mule deer population in this MU. "

Would you happen to know the stats for mulies in 8-10, 8-11, or 8-12?? I would love to hear the results of the places i mostly hunt! :biggrin:Thanks Fisher-
Hogan

[dana]

Sounds good to me...but what percentage of the buck population to the "the big boys" make up? Pretty small I imagine..but there's certainly no problem erring on the side of caution. So the buck:doe ratio is perhaps a little better...by certainly not worse.
All good.

I'll forward you the report, Steve.


SSS

All bucks will be up and moving around and easier to see during that timeframe. An important part of buck to doe survey counts is also coming up with numbers in the different age class in the bucks. You want to get the wannabe trophy hunters on your side instead of against ya? Show them the real numbers of the older age classes. Prove to them that big bucks do in fact exist, and they are just shitty hunters and can't find them. ;) Best time to do this is either during the peak of the rut (when you guys ain't hunting by the way) or do it closer to Christmas. Early Jan is also a good time as the bucks will be batched up and all hanging together.

[Islandeer]

Bang on again. Differnt region same rational
All bucks will be up and moving around and easier to see during that timeframe. An important part of buck to doe survey counts is also coming up with numbers in the different age class in the bucks. You want to get the wannabe trophy hunters on your side instead of against ya? Show them the real numbers of the older age classes. Prove to them that big bucks do in fact exist, and they are just shitty hunters and can't find them. ;) Best time to do this is either during the peak of the rut (when you guys ain't hunting by the way) or do it closer to Christmas. Early Jan is also a good time as the bucks will be batched up and all hanging together.

[GoatGuy]

GG,
Lower than the 90's? Wasn't the big die off in 96? You've had nothing for winters and are just starting to see wolves. Why would your numbers be worse than the big die off years? I don't buy it.

Pre die-off.

[GoatGuy]

buzz kill
Keep your 'little head' up, and just make sure there is no sperm shortage, all will be good

We've established hunting has nothing to do with it.

Think the big picture issues are fire surpression, neglected habitat and then mortality. With every subsequent die-off we'll see the m. deer rebound but at a lower abundance.

Shrinking pie concept.

[GoatGuy]

When did the Connector get finalized? Late 80's right? That fence pretty much screwed up the one of the biggest migrations in the province. I was there in the early 90's. Don't tell me it was great then. The year the fence was put up, tons of deer hit it on their way down in the fall and pounded it back and forth trying to find a way through. They knew they had to go low or else they'd die so they turned around and went to the winter ranges in the Region 3 side. I spent a ton of time on that winter range both before and after that fence. The deer numbers were never the same after that.

Referring to the region, not site specific issues. I certainly agree with you in that case. Quite a few critters with collars before that went in.

[GoatGuy]

All bucks will be up and moving around and easier to see during that timeframe. An important part of buck to doe survey counts is also coming up with numbers in the different age class in the bucks. You want to get the wannabe trophy hunters on your side instead of against ya? Show them the real numbers of the older age classes. Prove to them that big bucks do in fact exist, and they are just shitty hunters and can't find them. ;) Best time to do this is either during the peak of the rut (when you guys ain't hunting by the way) or do it closer to Christmas. Early Jan is also a good time as the bucks will be batched up and all hanging together.

Not one of the objectives.

If we're around or over 20:100 then the money is better spent on other issues.

[dana]

GG,
What about 88/89? How do ya think that winter affected the deer numbers? Was the only year I ever saw Okanagan Lake freeze over. The clubs were feeding deer big time that winter. A lot didn't make it through. And that is pre-96. How long do ya think it takes numbers to get good? You were still in diapers when I was hunting in the late 80's and early 90's. It was not good hunting then. Stick to the facts and you will do fine. Try to make things out as better in the past when they weren't, and you look like a idiot. You have way way better numbers now than you ever did in the 80's and 90's. You've had good winters for over 15 years. You've had a bunch of big ass fires all over that Region that have created some amazing habitat. And you haven't had wolves eating ya out of house and home. Just now, the wolves are moving in. Still way far from a problem down there compared to many other areas of the province.

[dana]

Not one of the objectives.

If we're around or over 20:100 then the money is better spent on other issues.

Takes no more time or money. You are in the air already. Tick boxes or hit a clicker according to the age class or sex you are seeing. Really simple. Crunching data afterward on the ground takes no more time either. It's just a spread sheet. If I can crunch data on age classes of trees, I'm sure those doing wildlife surveys can do the same on age classes on deer. ;) You are always bitching about the 'trophy' crowd being the ones pushing their agenda, we'll pretty easy to shut them up with real numbers ain't it? So why not collect those real numbers at no extra cost?

[Jelvis]

dana great post, telling it the way it is, from a hunter's experience growing up in the area as well, and knowing all there is to know about the Rocky Mountain Mule Deer and it's habitat. Good to see real hunters with knowledge and wisdom about the mule deer and it's life cycle in B.C. and not just guesses in scientific data by feeding a computer and then pushing buttons on a keyboard in an office somewhere in downtown Kelowna, like throwing darts at a dart board.
The passed is dead and gone, and tomorrows out of sight, true mulie hunters make it right.
Jel .. I may be wrong but the goat ain't right .. Kid Rock .. Keeping it real from region 3 .. Mule country .. Stevein3

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Takes no more time or money. You are in the air already. Tick boxes or hit a clicker according to the age class or sex you are seeing. Really simple. Crunching data afterward on the ground takes no more time either. It's just a spread sheet. If I can crunch data on age classes of trees, I'm sure those doing wildlife surveys can do the same on age classes on deer. ;) You are always bitching about the 'trophy' crowd being the ones pushing their agenda, we'll pretty easy to shut them up with real numbers ain't it? So why not collect those real numbers at no extra cost?

Two classes of bucks were noted...less than 4 pt and greater than 4pt. Maybe we should be scoring them too?

Study sent.

SSS

[GoatGuy]

GG,
What about 88/89? How do ya think that winter affected the deer numbers? Was the only year I ever saw Okanagan Lake freeze over. The clubs were feeding deer big time that winter. A lot didn't make it through. And that is pre-96. How long do ya think it takes numbers to get good? You were still in diapers when I was hunting in the late 80's and early 90's. It was not good hunting then. Stick to the facts and you will do fine. Try to make things out as better in the past when they weren't, and you look like a idiot. You have way way better numbers now than you ever did in the 80's and 90's. You've had good winters for over 15 years. You've had a bunch of big ass fires all over that Region that have created some amazing habitat. And you haven't had wolves eating ya out of house and home. Just now, the wolves are moving in. Still way far from a problem down there compared to many other areas of the province.

Can look at the reports, harvest stats, harvest management, change in habitat, and the burn (forest fire) reports. The info and data goes all the way back into the 50s and 60s. If you read the books about the Okanagan in the 20s and the forest fires that lasted all summer and choked the valley out. Sheep populations where there haven't been sheep for decades.

Not disagreeing with a lot you've said or are saying particularly site specific. Just saying that yes there were more mule deer historically and that's because we had the right habitat (no fire surpression), and no real people issues (highways, cars, houses on winter range etc). These aren't drastic, overnight issues like winter die-off. It takes decades to see it and realize the change. The only tangible examples we can really see is places where sheep populations were once hunted, have now all but dissapeared. Other sheep populations that have been slow to respond and leveled off at lower abundance. Other places like snowy where 100+ deer days were the norm, where you now don't see any.

Not saying the sky is falling, just trying to look ahead.

[lovemywinchester]

there are more female than male humans in life also by the way
and those are very good odds

Not everywhere.

China Running Out Of Women

(AP) China will have 30 million more men of marriageable age than women in less than 15 years as a gender imbalance resulting from the country's tough one-child policy becomes more pronounced, state media reported Friday.

The tens of millions of men who will not be able to find a wife could also lead to social instability problems, the China Daily said in a front-page report.

[GoatGuy]

Takes no more time or money. You are in the air already. Tick boxes or hit a clicker according to the age class or sex you are seeing. Really simple. Crunching data afterward on the ground takes no more time either. It's just a spread sheet. If I can crunch data on age classes of trees, I'm sure those doing wildlife surveys can do the same on age classes on deer. ;) You are always bitching about the 'trophy' crowd being the ones pushing their agenda, we'll pretty easy to shut them up with real numbers ain't it? So why not collect those real numbers at no extra cost?

There are a few reasons why we don't time it according to your thoughts. Most of it ties into time and money. Classifying them could be done, but it's not one of our management objectives.

We have to time our flights around capacity constraints. Moose are the toughest as they need snow, some colder temperatures and we like to get them done before they lose their antlers (pretty much December is the only time) because they're easier to identify and, in this case, we want to know the number of yearling s-fs and the age distribution as that is a requirement as part of their breeding behaviour and part of the management issue. Oppositely unlike moose, we can't sex bucks and does if they've dropped their antlers - we've ID'd bucks with one antler in mid December. Then there's weather and we've had weeks of valley cloud at times writting the entire season off.

With md the age structure isn't that important for conservation. Also, the studies on the composition of the herd and classification given different seasons (selective vs non-selective) have already been studied and the outcomes expressed.

This money was paid for by HCTF and was ear-marked to test the sustainability of increasing the any buck season, nothing else. The funding is done this year so anything in the future will have to come out of the big game inventory fund which is kinda like having a well that produces .5 gallons per minute.

Doubt we'll be having this discussion next year as the likelihood of flying MD in the Okanagan will be very low.

[dana]

Like I said though, it takes no extra money to class them. I have a great video showing how Wy does it. And no, they don't score them in the air. It is just the way they have their clicker set up. Might be worth lookin' into in the future as the only way to shut up the wannabe trophy hunters is to hit them with straight up facts about how many older deer there actually is. Do we want to keep fighting the same battles with the likes of the GOABC, or do we want to have the facts to show them that proper management works for both resident hunters and nonresident hunters alike?

As for the historical data, there were factors leading to the high pops of the 50's and 60's, and fire certainly is on the top of the list. But the historical crashes were really driven by BAD WINTERS like the late 60's and early 70's. Will we ever see the highs again? Probably not, as times have changed. I have pictures of a monster muley that was killed by a Kelowna game warden back in the day. I know exactly where it was shot. It is condos now. My dad killed a big ol' bruiser above Rutland in an area that is nothing but subdivisions now. Time keeps marching on. Things change. We cannot expect the past to be today. The fact is what we have today is pretty darn good considering. I just get tired of the constant bitchin' I see on this site from people who think the sky is falling. We still have the best hunting and wildlife opportunities than any other juristiction in North America and we need to give our heads a shack and be thankful for what we've got.

Since we are on the topic of game counts, I heard on the radio this week of a plane crash in the Big Creek area while doing wildlife counts. The news report never went into details and I haven't heard anything else about it. Was everyone involved okay?

[SHAKER]

Other places like snowy where 100+ deer days were the norm, where you now don't see any.

Not saying the sky is falling, just trying to look ahead.

Not totally accurate.... they may not be there in the numbers of old but I have seen Deer both times I've been there. Times change and so do the critters\habitat or habitat\critters, I'm noticing Deer in places I would not normally be look'n so I've had to change my favorite places too!

One thing I will say is hunting has\had NOTHING to do with lower then "the good old days" Deer numbers in that area or many other places in the region.

[GoatGuy]

Like I said though, it takes no extra money to class them. I have a great video showing how Wy does it. And no, they don't score them in the air. It is just the way they have their clicker set up. Might be worth lookin' into in the future as the only way to shut up the wannabe trophy hunters is to hit them with straight up facts about how many older deer there actually is. Do we want to keep fighting the same battles with the likes of the GOABC, or do we want to have the facts to show them that proper management works for both resident hunters and nonresident hunters alike?

As for the historical data, there were factors leading to the high pops of the 50's and 60's, and fire certainly is on the top of the list. But the historical crashes were really driven by BAD WINTERS like the late 60's and early 70's. Will we ever see the highs again? Probably not, as times have changed. I have pictures of a monster muley that was killed by a Kelowna game warden back in the day. I know exactly where it was shot. It is condos now. My dad killed a big ol' bruiser above Rutland in an area that is nothing but subdivisions now. Time keeps marching on. Things change. We cannot expect the past to be today. The fact is what we have today is pretty darn good considering. I just get tired of the constant bitchin' I see on this site from people who think the sky is falling. We still have the best hunting and wildlife opportunities than any other juristiction in North America and we need to give our heads a shack and be thankful for what we've got.

Since we are on the topic of game counts, I heard on the radio this week of a plane crash in the Big Creek area while doing wildlife counts. The news report never went into details and I haven't heard anything else about it. Was everyone involved okay?

Yes, we could do it, so long as we have the experience on the flight. It's much easier to count 4 pts and less than 4 pts, but whatever.

Agree with you on the rest of it. At this point if people don't agree, they never will. It's easy to spot the culls in any herd and it's easy to spend all your time on the culls instead of focusing on what's important. Time for a bullet on that program.

Like you said time keeps marching on, time to look ahead. Now we know what hunting's doing (or not doing) to deer, be nice to get after the politicians, get some funding and start making some habitat.

Everyone's ok, from what I was told, just contractors onboard.

[GoatGuy]

Not totally accurate.... they may not be there in the numbers of old but I have seen Deer both times I've been there. Times change and so do the critters\habitat or habitat\critters, I'm noticing Deer in places I would not normally be look'n so I've had to change my favorite places too!

One thing I will say is hunting has\had NOTHING to do with lower then "the good old days" Deer numbers in that area or many other places in the region.

I've been in there and not seen a deer. Lots of range maggots, sheep and always one or two bears though. Certainly not like what I've been told about the 'heydays though'.

Time to get on with making more habitat, deer and sheep in that case, leave the rest of the bs (bsers) behind.

[dana]

Maybe time to pressure the government to actually follow through with the recommendations of that big expensive report that was done by that ex-Premier following the 03 fires? If I recall prescribed buring was a big item on those recommendations. Other than the dinky ass fuel management programs to help struggling forestry communities survive mill closures, I haven't seen anything else being done to follow through with those recommendations. Chicken $hit politics that are worried about liabilities don't cut it. Think about all the liabilities when we have another 03. It isn't an if, it is a when.

[GoatGuy]

Maybe time to pressure the government to actually follow through with the recommendations of that big expensive report that was done by that ex-Premier following the 03 fires? If I recall prescribed buring was a big item on those recommendations. Other than the dinky ass fuel management programs to help struggling forestry communities survive mill closures, I haven't seen anything else being done to follow through with those recommendations. Chicken $hit politics that are worried about liabilities don't cut it. Think about all the liabilities when we have another 03. It isn't an if, it is a when.

The big we just need to get our poop in a group.

[SHAKER]

I've been in there and not seen a deer. Lots of range maggots, sheep and always one or two bears though. Certainly not like what I've been told about the 'heydays though'.

Time to get on with making more habitat, deer and sheep in that case, leave the rest of the bs (bsers) behind.


I'm with ya.... burn baby burn!

[SHAKER]

Maybe time to pressure the government to actually follow through with the recommendations of that big expensive report that was done by that ex-Premier following the 03 fires? If I recall prescribed buring was a big item on those recommendations. Other than the dinky ass fuel management programs to help struggling forestry communities survive mill closures, I haven't seen anything else being done to follow through with those recommendations. Chicken $hit politics that are worried about liabilities don't cut it. Think about all the liabilities when we have another 03. It isn't an if, it is a when.

Don't forget even when you get a natural fire going thats visable to the public it needs to be put out. We had a great one here last summer that was in no way harming anything and would have burn itself out in the rocks above, but NO lets spend a whole bunch of money on it...... It's tourist season ya know. Gvmnt Horse shit.

Who was that guy Aggie was talk'n about? That the best thing I've heard from him in awhile. Somebody matchstick??????

[dana]

The fact is Forest Fire Suppression is Social Forestry at it's best. 09 was a perfect example. Tons of people out of work because of a world wide Reccession. Lets put a bunch of them to work saving the world by fighting fires. The taxpayers don't even notice all their money being thrown at it because it is 'exciting'. Lets drag up some footage from 03, spin the message, wag the dog, and instant approval to spend millions. "The dog days of summer are here. Burn Baby Burn"

[Brez]

Wow! am I missing something here? I just skimmed over but I get the feeling that most people feel that as long as we have 2 - 3 bucks per 10 does, we should open up the season and limits regardless of the total population because it's a healthy population!
I used to hunt deer in 8-15 exclusively, from '74 till '05. I haven't wasted a day there in the last four years because there are so few deer. I'm not the only one.
Saying that it's still great and we should quit bitching is like ignoring the crack-house down the street 'cause me or my family aren't hooked yet.

[GoatGuy]

Wow! am I missing something here? I just skimmed over but I get the feeling that most people feel that as long as we have 2 - 3 bucks per 10 does, we should open up the season and limits regardless of the total population because it's a healthy population!
I used to hunt deer in 8-15 exclusively, from '74 till '05. I haven't wasted a day there in the last four years because there are so few deer. I'm not the only one.
Saying that it's still great and we should quit bitching is like ignoring the crack-house down the street 'cause me or my family aren't hooked yet.

What is being said is the current season is not what's holding the population back so we might as well get on with figuring out what's wrong and fix it.

[dana]

Wow! am I missing something here? I just skimmed over but I get the feeling that most people feel that as long as we have 2 - 3 bucks per 10 does, we should open up the season and limits regardless of the total population because it's a healthy population!
I used to hunt deer in 8-15 exclusively, from '74 till '05. I haven't wasted a day there in the last four years because there are so few deer. I'm not the only one.
Saying that it's still great and we should quit bitching is like ignoring the crack-house down the street 'cause me or my family aren't hooked yet.

IMO, the #1 problem in that unit for the muleys are WHITETAILS. Clean up that mess and you probably will start seeing more muleys. And yup, that mess can be dealt with through season changes. Maybe start with a 5 whitetail doe a year baglimit.

[Brez]

Guess we're all entitled to our opinions. When there were LOTS of muleys, there were LOTS of whiteys. That's why I started bowhunting - to have a challenge. I used to tag out on Whiteys with my bow, no problem. Would see dozens, within shooting range, from my tree stand, each day, and I would get picky. I quit going when i'd be lucky to see one buck a week and a couple of does a day during the height of the migration. Maybe it's just me.....but I doubt it. I'll poll the 30 - 40 guys who used to go when I did and then switched to the Okanagan and/or the East Kootenays - with better success.

[dana]

Hmm,
I happen to know guys that go down there every year and have no problem limiting out on whiteys with their bows.

[Brez]

2 bucks? I guess it's just me - I've become a shitty hunter (don't hunt from a vehicle). 'K, I'll shut up now.

[dana]

Maybe it's Clearwater boys that just know how to get er done. :) Some of the buck line-up pics I've seen in recent years are pretty damn cool. Reminds me of the good ol' days of hunting in the 80's in the Christian Valley.

[Brez]

I'll have to get that young Clearwater apprentice that we just hired to show me how again.

[aggiehunter]

FisherDude...I'm just so happy that your elated over counting 211 mule deer in all of 8-15....PITIFULL!

[Gunner]

Aggiehunter,as usual after reading one of your posts I am lost for words!:mrgreen: you have absolutely no idea where or under what criteria or parameters the survey was conducted aside from the WMU #s.Why don't you pop up the hill behind your house on your sled and start counting mulies?You obviously know more than the biologists do,and I'm sure that you could do a better job. Gunner

[Stone Sheep Steve]

There's certainly no disagreement from anyone that the muley #'s are down in 8-15...and something needs to be done to address habitat and/or predators(possibly). The good buck to doe ratios prove that hunting is not the cause. There have been many locals claiming that the any buck season coinciding with the GOS 6 pt elk season was "decimating" the mule deer bucks as everyone who couldn't find an elk went home with a mule deer. This study emphatically proves otherwise.
We have a problem but it's not hunting related.

SSS

[Gunner]

211 was a sample size. Not a population survey.Exactly.Mule deer are declining throughout their whole continental range,not just in BC.Some of the most managed herds in the US have shown long term declines,not attributable to localised events such as bad weather,predators,or controlled hunting pressure.Populations go up and down but the overall trend continues down.There is no true consensus on the reason by those who study them,but competition with whitetails and degradation and loss of winter habitat are suspected to be major contributors.I have no doubt that both are affecting mulie populations in BC.Predator numbers and non scientific management(doe seasons in 7b are an example) play their part,but they only affect localised areas.I feel that loss of winter range and the number of whitetails in southern BC play the biggest role.Controlled burns to open up more habitat and improve the historic winter range would help the situation,but I ain't holding my breath. Gunner

[aggiehunter]

Gunner, We've had a burn on the books in Region 8 for sheep and deer for 8 or 9 years...we even went up and slashed some small trees ....the guy in Penticton just doesn't seem interested even after lots of prodding...it may catch fire traditionally which is not the way to go. And Fillman got some big bucks to tell us to do it..we could by a lot of Eddy Matchlites for that.

[Fishhound]

Maybe its time to ask the local MLA and the Minister responsible why this work is not taking place

[Fisher-Dude]

Burns next year in 8-15 is the plan.

No one has to convince Mr Harris of the benefits of burns. The problem is the other ministries of government that want to put fires out. And the regional district and municipal bed-wetters that have formed the Airshed Coalition with our tax dollars trying to shut down my woodstove are anti-burn 100%.

Best put your efforts into targeting bureaucracies that are foiling our efforts rather than the bio who has a huge uphill battle when dealing with the municipal dickheads.

[Snowpatrol]

Start bugging your MLA's to get the forestry companies to start planting more Fir trees where they cut fir trees down.... instead of them cutting fir and planting pine !