predator control

[cityslicker]

heres a good article on the truth about the co's and predator control.

www.welcometowilliamslake.ca (http://www.welcometowilliamslake.ca) and then go to ww.eab.bc.ca

[one-shot-wonder]

Can't find the article, cut & paste in the thread maybe.

[cityslicker]

i tryed cut & paste article is too long. article is called local ranchers speak out for choices in predator control dec 29 .look at bottom of page one or page 2

[horshur]

http://www.welcometowilliamslake.ca/index.php/the-news/local-news/4769-local-ranchers-speak-out-for-choices-in-predator-control.html

[gcreek]

I was one of the witnesses at Kyle Lay's hearing. Got news last night that the decision went 100% in Kyle's favour. Hopefully Roger Stuart and the COS don't do something stupid like appeal this decision to a higher plane or try to put too many onerous restrictions on his new licence.

The guy trapping for the Band out here is at 21 wolves now for the winter.

Word in the wind that the COS is now planning on dropping their part in predator control and training ranchers how to deal with the wolves themselves. We've progressed right back to what it was 30 years ago.

[pronghorn]

I'm so glad that this went Kyle's way as this guy knows his stuff when it comes to predator control

[jessbennett]

im hauling logs out of the west fraser road area. 4800 rd to be exact. there is a huge population of wolves in that area as well. ive seen several packs of wolves now and one is a huge pack. for me to see 50 wolves a week is nothing at all.

[gcreek]

im hauling logs out of the west fraser road area. 4800 rd to be exact. there is a huge population of wolves in that area as well. ive seen several packs of wolves now and one is a huge pack. for me to see 50 wolves a week is nothing at all.

I realize that you guys are pretty short of time on your trips but are you allowed to carry a rifle?

Maybe a sniper seat on the roof and a swamper? hehe

[Nekhani]

Great news about Kyles Hearing G Creek.

Hopefully this will be a way of stepping up some much needed predator control.

This matter is way out of hand now and Wolves need to get thinned out big time.

[gcreek]

Great news about Kyles Hearing G Creek.

Hopefully this will be a way of stepping up some much needed predator control.

This matter is way out of hand now and Wolves need to get thinned out big time.

While my main support was for Kyle, my hope is that this will open the door for other proven mitigators to recieve the same type of permits upon asking. I am pretty biased about the Lay's abilities but there is a small scattering of other guys that are good also.

That being said, trapping will only be a drop in the bucket for localized areas. We really need reinstatement of 10-80 to get the results needed or it will be all over for hunters and livestock producers alike.

[blackbart]

Thanks for the thread and the link to the article. Within the article there is something of concern to me. Raising domestic sheep in this area is worse for wild sheep than a few predators that are eating their Alpaca's. When will people start to understand that domestic sheep have no place in B.C.?? Never mind the predator/prey interaction that has been started by all of the cattle and feral horses on our landscape.

"Jocelyne Carson and her husband Kelly live on acreage near the Sheep Creek Bridge. They have two young children, and raise miniature donkeys, alpacas, sheep, dogs and turkeys on their farm. She said that in 2009 a baby alpaca disappeared from the enclosed pen during birthing season."

[pnbrock]

sounds like an hbc outing to heavy predator areas for hunting party.

[GoatGuy]

10-80.....lol. Srd officers in Ab tried 3 different times to get this one problem pack, they never got a one, what did they kill for non target, who knows. Lays target the problem and thats what they get, nothing else. Quickly efficiently and humanely, not like 10-80 where the animal does suffer, they dont die boom instantly as soon as they injest 10-80. 10-80 is a poor way to deal with the problem wolves, in my opinion.
best if we take of from the folks who have the collars and are dealng with wolves and caribou.
Thanks for the .02, the value reflects the rate and opinion.

[GoatGuy]

While we're on the topic, wolf Killer, show me when and how trapping has reduced the wolf population sufficiently to increase the prey population. Not saying trapping doesn't help
But seriously....

Just one case, please.........

Thanks.

[The Dude]

The summary of the decision is here. Click the link, it's a pdf file.
http://www.eab.gov.bc.ca/wildlife/wlsm12.htm#2011-WIL-005%28a%29

[Gateholio]

While we're on the topic, wolf Killer, show me when and how trapping has reduced the wolf population sufficiently to increase the prey population. Not saying trapping doesn't help
But seriously....

Just one case, please.........

Thanks.

Anecdotal and isolated at best...but for the last few years, PG66 has been trapping wolves in an area near where our club has been monitoring goats for the last 20 years. (No goat season there) These goats are pretty much restricted to a small area.

We saw an increase in goat kid survival in the last couple of years. This trapping may or may have not had an impact, but it seems to have paid off. However, it is only a SMALL area that we are talking about. To make real, long term impacts, there would have to be lots more trappers covering lots more ground, and even then, it's iffy.

[horshur]

While we're on the topic, wolf Killer, show me when and how trapping has reduced the wolf population sufficiently to increase the prey population. Not saying trapping doesn't help
But seriously....

Just one case, please.........

Thanks.

there was just posted an article by Giest where it is clear to him that he and his collegues assumptions regarding wolves and predator prey relations have been wrong and even goes so far to suggest that many of the studies have led to false assumptions because they never were doing scientific work on the "Natural" system but rather one that was already seriously impacted by men before they came along. ..and in the article he refers to them as "desparetly poor trappers" so maybe I am making another false assumption but to me the article suggests that Giest thought the trappers had an impact.....

[bearvalley]

Goatguy,any reduction in wolf numbers will increase wildlife populations.It does'nt matter if they are trapped,shot or the use of 1080 is brought back as a control tool.The bottom line is that sterilized wolves still eat meat and fragmented packs still make pups.What our Bio's are doing is not really on track with stabilizing or increasing wildlife populations.Pick up a phone and see if you can get a yukon bio to tell you what was done to solve this same issue up there in the past.There are effective methods that work.The only problem is that our provincial BUNNY SHERRIF'S think they have to reinvent the wheel.

[houndogger]

Good wolf trappers like the Lays and such who don't educate the wolves and can and do remove everyone out of a pack make a difference. The problem is they need to be funded to make a difference. Plus there needs to be alot more of them province wide...

[bearvalley]

Good wolf trappers like the Lays and such who don't educate the wolves and can and do remove everyone out of a pack make a difference. The problem is they need to be funded to make a difference. Plus there needs to be alot more of them province wide...

You could not be more correct.

[BlacktailStalker]

wolfkiller, care to share any of that info with the rest of HBC, I am sure lots of guys want to be so successful whacking wolves ?

[GoatGuy]

there was just posted an article by Giest where it is clear to him that he and his collegues assumptions regarding wolves and predator prey relations have been wrong and even goes so far to suggest that many of the studies have led to false assumptions because they never were doing scientific work on the "Natural" system but rather one that was already seriously impacted by men before they came along. ..and in the article he refers to them as "desparetly poor trappers" so maybe I am making another false assumption but to me the article suggests that Giest thought the trappers had an impact.....

Different time, place and topic. At the risk of putting words in someone's mouth I'm pretty certain Val agrees if we're going to manage predators, particularly wolves effectively it won't be through trapping as a standalone tool. We've had that discussion.

[GoatGuy]

Anecdotal and isolated at best...but for the last few years, PG66 has been trapping wolves in an area near where our club has been monitoring goats for the last 20 years. (No goat season there) These goats are pretty much restricted to a small area.

We saw an increase in goat kid survival in the last couple of years. This trapping may or may have not had an impact, but it seems to have paid off. However, it is only a SMALL area that we are talking about. To make real, long term impacts, there would have to be lots more trappers covering lots more ground, and even then, it's iffy.

Site specific works, but requires intense effort and it's typically for individual issues. When we're talking about wildlife populations at the MU or region level it don't work as a standalone tool.

[Gateholio]

Site specific works, but requires intense effort and it's typically for individual issues. When we're talking about wildlife populations at the MU or region level it don't work as a standalone tool.


I think we can agree on this :)

[GoatGuy]

Goatguy,any reduction in wolf numbers will increase wildlife populations.It does'nt matter if they are trapped,shot or the use of 1080 is brought back as a control tool.The bottom line is that sterilized wolves still eat meat and fragmented packs still make pups.What our Bio's are doing is not really on track with stabilizing or increasing wildlife populations.Pick up a phone and see if you can get a yukon bio to tell you what was done to solve this same issue up there in the past.There are effective methods that work.The only problem is that our provincial BUNNY SHERRIF'S think they have to reinvent the wheel.
Any reduction will not result in increased wildlife populations. You need to reduce the wolf population by 40% to have any impact. If you don't it's simply a waste of time, energy and money.

The people on the inside know sterilization doesn't work but it has to be proven to neutralize the paquet's of the world.

You sound like a familiar poster of days gone by.

[BlacktailStalker]

I already know how to trap, not nearly an expert, dont care to be but have info, contacts and resources beyond what you'd expect but thanks for the sarcastic somewhat ignorant response.

It was a straight up simple question, just figured there would be a couple simple suggestions, pactices or things some guys overlook that might help others do their part as I know there are guys on here, over 12,224, who have ambition and/or more money or time than you to do these things, so pretty lame excuses to me.
You could have already taught a few people a few things or posted some tutorials, more clips etc with the time and effort you've taken to disclose your attitude and defend your buddies but thats just more of the same on here. Anyways good luck with your rants.

[horshur]

Different time, place and topic. At the risk of putting words in someone's mouth I'm pretty certain Val agrees if we're going to manage predators, particularly wolves effectively it won't be through trapping as a standalone tool. We've had that discussion.

do you see a change in the political enviroment????

[GoatGuy]

do you see a change in the political enviroment????

Yes, even more so it we can get our collective you know what together.

[GoatGuy]

Good news for Kyle, but looks like some of you guys disagree, dont understand why ? Jealous of there success ? Give me a name of anyone out there that is better than them guys. Atleast there out there trying to help, dont see anyone else jumping up and down to do there job. If your a wolf lover than check out this video and cry. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHEbTq8Xu5Q&context=C38a30a3ADOEgsToPDskLGy2-BG4UBjOMDUq43fnPy



And yes thats Me, doing what i love, no predator control experts in the Alberta Srd offices, atleast some may tell you they are, im not an arm chair biologist, i live in the bush and know whats going on.

Don't think anyone is bagging on what the lays have been doing or have done. Just saying trapping by itself will not achieve the management outcomes required for healthy and abundant prey populations. Just isn't possible on a large scale.

In Alberta the helicopters, gps collars and strychnine have all worked very, very well.

[wolfkiller]

Yes for sure Goatguy, sorry i got off on the wrong foot, thats why i deleted my previous posts, dont wanna disrupt the thread. My apologies guys.

[bearvalley]

Don't think anyone is bagging on what the lays have been doing or have done. Just saying trapping by itself will not achieve the management outcomes required for healthy and abundant prey populations. Just isn't possible on a large scale.

In Alberta the helicopters, gps collars and strychnine have all worked very, very well.

Wish you luck with the strychnine.We might see the use of helicopters seeing as how a few COs are pushing in that direction.By the way what's been your personal contribution to the provincial wolf depopulation program.Did you shoot a few? Shoot a couple....or did you poison some........

[GoatGuy]

Wish you luck with the strychnine.We might see the use of helicopters seeing as how a few COs are pushing in that direction.By the way what's been your personal contribution to the provincial wolf depopulation program.Did you shoot a few? Shoot a couple....or did you poison some........

Sorry whiskey, sounds like the usual story. Out of touch, uninformed, without results and looking to bag on somebody for shortcomings.

[gcreek]

Wrong again GG, bearvalley didn't know about this site until I told him about it. He likely knows more about what is going on behind the scenes than most.

Is it difficult for you to answer direct questions?

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Good for the Lays, the good guys win one round!!

[GoatGuy]

Wrong again GG, bearvalley didn't know about this site until I told him about it. He likely knows more about what is going on behind the scenes than most.

Is it difficult for you to answer direct questions?

Sorry sounds like another waste of time.

[gcreek]

Sorry sounds like another waste of time.


Yep, for both BV and myself.

Could you not even answer my last question without a cheap shot? You won't answer this one either so it was another waste of time on my part.

I see on your profile that you are a mailman. Hope you are as single-minded about getting a letter to it's destination as you are about trying to discredit the folks that disagree with you on here. I would suppose that you would get in the neighborhood of two weeks holiday a year plus weekends? That should give you a substancial amount of days in the remote areas of this province to be far more credible than those of us that live here full time.

It's easy to tell an Instant Expert, it's just difficult to tell them much.

[GoatGuy]

Yep, for both BV and myself.

Could you not even answer my last question without a cheap shot? You won't answer this one either so it was another waste of time on my part.

I see on your profile that you are a mailman. Hope you are as single-minded about getting a letter to it's destination as you are about trying to discredit the folks that disagree with you on here. I would suppose that you would get in the neighborhood of two weeks holiday a year plus weekends? That should give you a substancial amount of days in the remote areas of this province to be far more credible than those of us that live here full time.

It's easy to tell an Instant Expert, it's just difficult to tell them much.
So much for science. Sounds like hunters are stuck to beatin their chest and making fire with a stick and string. Has been extremely sucessful so far, hasn't it?

Declining wildlife populations all over, wow, nice. Congratulations on an enormous waste of time.

[bearvalley]

Sorry sounds like another waste of time.
Goatguy,poking at each other on this forum is not going to address BC's out of control wolf population.Tell your MLA,contact Steve Thompson or better yet let our Premier know how you feel.Some of us have been there. As for the use of strychnine "IT WON'T HAPPEN". It's not target specific enough to use.The old Al West days of dumping tons of horsmeat laced with it are gone.If there is enough pressure applied the ban on 1080 might be lifted for use in very controlled instances.Trapping is an efficient means of dealing with PROBLEM wolves and also helps to keep numbers in check to a limited extent.The problem is it is time consuming.As far as shooting for reduction purposes...You might as well go "blow in the wind".Helicopters will work.You refer to Region 7 and it's vibrant moose herd.Yes,an open season on calf moose can trigger the growth of a moose population.But not with a runaway predator explosion.Have you thought about where the last aerial control of wolves took place.Maybe its just coincidental....

[bearvalley]

Good for the Lays, the good guys win one round!!

Round two will be if the day ever comes that Kyle and Dan can go about their business of dealing with predators without having to worry about some goverment employee trying to nail them on a game violation.

[GoatGuy]

Goatguy,poking at each other on this forum is not going to address BC's out of control wolf population.Tell your MLA,contact Steve Thompson or better yet let our Premier know how you feel.Some of us have been there. As for the use of strychnine "IT WON'T HAPPEN". It's not target specific enough to use.The old Al West days of dumping tons of horsmeat laced with it are gone.If there is enough pressure applied the ban on 1080 might be lifted for use in very controlled instances.Trapping is an efficient means of dealing with PROBLEM wolves and also helps to keep numbers in check to a limited extent.The problem is it is time consuming.As far as shooting for reduction purposes...You might as well go "blow in the wind".Helicopters will work.You refer to Region 7 and it's vibrant moose herd.Yes,an open season on calf moose can trigger the growth of a moose population.But not with a runaway predator explosion.Have you thought about where the last aerial control of wolves took place.Maybe its just coincidental....
Sounds like more of a waste of time with no results. Thanks.

[bc mike]

Wonder how many hundreds anti s these people create every year? A walk with a wolf sanctuary. I would like them to take 10 wolves out at a time and see what happens. BS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHGTrCJRjVM&feature=related

http://www.northernlightswildlife.com/

[gcreek]

So much for science. Sounds like hunters are stuck to beatin their chest and making fire with a stick and string. Has been extremely sucessful so far, hasn't it?

Declining wildlife populations all over, wow, nice. Congratulations on an enormous waste of time.

Has it occurred to you that science has gotten us to where we are over the last 30 years?

Science was what dictated the nuetering of wolves in the Quesnel Lake area and fragmented 3 packs into dozens. Haven't heard anything about the cariboo in that area for several months, I wonder if there are any left.

It is my opinion that since science hasn't worked real well that maybe a little common sense should come into play.

It is possible if MOE quit playing the study game and did some actual management for ungulate survival there might be some game left here for our grandchildren to hunt also. As studies leave room to create more studies without conclusion there is are never ending jobs created for bios. That my friend is why there are never conclusions to studies on wildlife until the tunnel-visioned beaurocratic crowd finds out what they were researching is redundant because their subjects have disappeared.

Why would one keep doing the same thing expecting change?

[GoatGuy]

While we're on the topic with the culls, life is about results not talking about a bunch of garbage that has been proven to be completely wrong dozens of times. Not to circle the wagons and talk like we're all big boys but that ain't reality. Want results, do it properly. Want to get a hero badge keep acting like one of the culls and leave nothing for future generations. Staff looking ahead 100 years, not to the next ego drIven pat on the back. There are far bigger things on the line.

[GoatGuy]

Has it occurred to you that science has gotten us to where we are over the last 30 years?

Science was what dictated the nuetering of wolves in the Quesnel Lake area and fragmented 3 packs into dozens. Haven't heard anything about the cariboo in that area for several months, I wonder if there are any left.

It is my opinion that since science hasn't worked real well that maybe a little common sense should come into play.

It is possible if MOE quit playing the study game and did some actual management for ungulate survival there might be some game left here for our grandchildren to hunt also. As studies leave room to create more studies without conclusion there is are never ending jobs created for bios. That my friend is why there are never conclusions to studies on wildlife until the tunnel-visioned beaurocratic crowd finds out what they were researching is redundant because their subjects have disappeared.

Why would one keep doing the same thing expecting change?

No, this is all completely 100% incorrect. There's no other way to explain it.

[gcreek]

What staff? Most govt. workers only look as far as their own retirement cheque. The ones that actually care are sadly few and far between.

Looks as though you lost your compass. Can you find your way back.

Oops, that was another question. Sorry.

[jeff]

heres my 2 cents on this ..the two of you .goatguy and cgreek ,your not going to see eye to eye any time soon ..both of you got good points but are far apart from agreeing..and i dont see it changing anytime soon .very good debate though

[Islandeer]

Gold..ck, climb back into your spaceship and find another more suitable galaxy. Your far too intelligent for this discussion.

[gcreek]

No, this is all completely 100% incorrect. There's no other way to explain it.


According to who? A weekend hunting postman in "Toon Town" that believes every govt report he has read on the computer? Give me a break!

I am only stating my own opinion on part of that post, the portion about Quesnel Lake is fact. Just because a bio doesn't write about his failures until they retire (if then) doesn't mean that the failure didn't happen.

If you have no problem questioning my integrity why is it so difficult to question the "experts"? They are actually human beings with the same interior and ulterior motives as you and I. A badge only gives them authority to do what they are paid to do. It doesn't give them Sainthood.

[GoatGuy]

What staff? Most govt. workers only look as far as their own retirement cheque. The ones that actually care are sadly few and far between.

Looks as though you lost your compass. Can you find your way back.

Oops, that was another question. Sorry.

That's your perspective. The only people tha need convincing are the general public and with radical and uninformed opinions we will achieve nothing.

You have to stick to your objectives and if that's to manage wildlife and predators being a strident drama Queen will not work- it is really that simple.

[gcreek]

Wonder how many hundreds anti s these people create every year? A walk with a wolf sanctuary. I would like them to take 10 wolves out at a time and see what happens. BS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHGTrCJRjVM&feature=related

http://www.northernlightswildlife.com/

I wonder if they release live fawns, lambs and calves into the enclosure so visitors can have a real wolf experience or if they are fed tofu?

[GoatGuy]

I wonder if they release live fawns, lambs and calves into the enclosure so visitors can have a real wolf experience or if they are fed tofu?

Most of the domesticated wolves won't eat anything or than dog food. Of course, being an expert, you already know that.

[gcreek]

heres my 2 cents on this ..the two of you .goatguy and cgreek ,your not going to see eye to eye any time soon ..both of you got good points but are far apart from agreeing..and i dont see it changing anytime soon .very good debate though

Thanks Jeff, my only frustration with GG and a couple of others is their unwillingness to question. When you get another answer question that. I will post my own opinions, experiences and what I have as known facts.

I won't be qouting theories from govt. documents anytime soon and I sure won't be backing down from those who can't answer simple questions such as would be asked in a chance meeting face to face.

[Husky7mm]

Mailman:confused::confused: I use to believe that too..... If your a mailman I'm Opra!:lol:

Here the article for those that missed it
http://www.google.ca/url?q=http://idahoforwildlife.com/Website%2520articles/Dr%2520Geist/The%2520effects%2520of%2520thousands%2520of%2520im poverished%2520trappers%2520and%2520wolf%2520bount ies%2520in%2520northern%2520Alberta%2520early%2520 in%2520the%252020the%2520century%2520on%2520predat ors,%2520and%2520its%2520relation%2520to%2520the%2 520myth%2520of%2520the%2520harmless%2520wolf..pdf&sa=U&ei=NigLT7rhIqWuiALrxfXNCQ&ved=0CBEQFjAB&usg=AFQjCNHVVUNZJuYJD5mNsZ7Z0rqCkW4ZJQ
Anyways GG if you dont agree with the "Recipe for harmless& romantic wolves" and the game populations are indeed not delcining in many areas, should we than just change nothing then?
From all the noise I am hearing there is a problem, why are you trying to keep a lid on it?
Does not a collared wolf or cougar still need to eat. You spent the money on catching it, why not just remove it. They are far from endangered.
What would you suggest or do for region 5?

BTW I wonder if the government would use the services of the professional contractors more if they were part of their union?

[jeff]

Thanks Jeff, my only frustration with GG and a couple of others is their unwillingness to question. When you get another answer question that. I will post my own opinions, experiences and what I have as known facts.

I won't be qouting theories from govt. documents anytime soon and I sure won't be backing down from those who can't answer simple questions such as would be asked in a chance meeting face to face.

from my experiences on this site ..you will never win no matter what.and i mean never ..do you really think GG will suddenly say ,hey you no what .your right and youve been right all along..i seriously doubt it ..anyways good luck ..try not to take a page outa my book and fly off the handle...

[Mr. Dean]

from my experiences on this site ..you will never win no matter what.and i mean never ..do you really think GG will suddenly say ,hey you no what .your right and youve been right all along..i seriously doubt it ..anyways good luck ..try not to take a page outa my book and fly off the handle...


Slope is slipping.
If you have a problem with the site - Voluntarily close the door and don't bother looking back.

[Mr. Dean]

How about we ALL just argue our points without all the unnecessary drivel and bitch-slaps?

[jeff]

Slope is slipping.
If you have a problem with the site - Voluntarily close the door and don't bother looking back.

i never said i have a problem with the site . i enjoy this site ..i just have a problem with a FEW members of the site ..

[Mr. Dean]

from my experiences on this site ..you will never win no matter what.and i mean never ..do you really think GG will suddenly say ,hey you no what .your right and youve been right all along..i seriously doubt it ..anyways good luck ..try not to take a page outa my book and fly off the handle...


i never said i have a problem with the site . i enjoy this site ..i just have a problem with a FEW members of the site ..

And you have already been educated on how/what the PM function is for...
Slope is crumbling now.

STICK TO TOPIC OR BE GONE.
It's that simple.

[dingdongdenny]

sterilization of the wolves?i'm sorry but they are eating them not f***ing them

[GoatGuy]

Thanks Jeff, my only frustration with GG and a couple of others is their unwillingness to question. When you get another answer question that. I will post my own opinions, experiences and what I have as known facts.

I won't be qouting theories from govt. documents anytime soon and I sure won't be backing down from those who can't answer simple questions such as would be asked in a chance meeting face to face.

Question the process and the science all the time, but you have to understand it first, before you can question it.

The rhetoric and bs is really getting old.

[GoatGuy]

Mailman:confused::confused: I use to believe that too..... If your a mailman I'm Opra!:lol:

Here the article for those that missed it
http://www.google.ca/url?q=http://idahoforwildlife.com/Website%2520articles/Dr%2520Geist/The%2520effects%2520of%2520thousands%2520of%2520im poverished%2520trappers%2520and%2520wolf%2520bount ies%2520in%2520northern%2520Alberta%2520early%2520 in%2520the%252020the%2520century%2520on%2520predat ors,%2520and%2520its%2520relation%2520to%2520the%2 520myth%2520of%2520the%2520harmless%2520wolf..pdf&sa=U&ei=NigLT7rhIqWuiALrxfXNCQ&ved=0CBEQFjAB&usg=AFQjCNHVVUNZJuYJD5mNsZ7Z0rqCkW4ZJQ
Anyways GG if you dont agree with the "Recipe for harmless& romantic wolves" and the game populations are indeed not delcining in many areas, should we than just change nothing then?
From all the noise I am hearing there is a problem, why are you trying to keep a lid on it?
Does not a collared wolf or cougar still need to eat. You spent the money on catching it, why not just remove it. They are far from endangered.
What would you suggest or do for region 5?

BTW I wonder if the government would use the services of the professional contractors more if they were part of their union?

Did someone say game populations aren't declining? I must have missed that. Who's trying to keep a lid on [what]?

When you're trying to achieve an outcome you need to have correctly identified the problem and you need to implement the right solutions. You can imagine what would happen if your doctor cut your leg off because you had a bleeding nose - that's about the same approach we're seeing on here.

Management plans must have research that is defensible. Otherwise 'we're' no different than the environmentalist organizations, just arguing from the opposite uninformed point of view. That's the way they used to do things in BC and that's a big part of why we have so much social baggage.

BTW already had the chat with Geist on this topic.

[gcreek]

Question the process and the science all the time, but you have to understand it first, before you can question it.

The rhetoric and bs is really getting old.

As is blindness and gullibility.

FYI, I really didn't know what the "Save The Wolf" proponents fed their captives. I actually did think that they would keep their charge's diet as close to natural as possible.
It does make sense now that these humans would not want their pet wolves to ever realize what they were and revert to type.

[Husky7mm]

Did someone say game populations aren't declining? I must have missed that. Who's trying to keep a lid on [what]?

When you're trying to achieve an outcome you need to have correctly identified the problem and you need to implement the right solutions. You can imagine what would happen if your doctor cut your leg off because you had a bleeding nose - that's about the same approach we're seeing on here.

Management plans must have research that is defensible. Otherwise 'we're' no different than the environmentalist organizations, just arguing from the opposite uninformed point of view. That's the way they used to do things in BC and that's a big part of why we have so much social baggage.

BTW already had the chat with Geist on this topic.

Science often refers back to what has be found or done in the past. Why try to reinvent the wheel? A problem was created and needs to be solved. Some of the most sucessful people of the word say to create a solultion rather than dwell on the problem. Control would be an instant problem solver and then in a calmer aftermath the problem can be addressed so it doesnt happen again. There has to be more than the slow way.
By lid I mean why are you trying to make it out like there is not a massive problem with predation? You accused people like me of damaging realtionship with other stalk holders, how are you going to please both sides and why are you wanting to? Seem like were stuck here in BC as the next biggest experiment rather than reverting back to what works.
Sure I am sometimes uniformed and its sometimes out of my league but people should hear from both sides of the fence rather than be run out of town for not agreeing.
You and Giest talking I would have liked to be a fly on that wall.....
He may just be the man for the job.... Hmm

[GoatGuy]

Science often refers back to what has be found or done in the past. Why try to reinvent the wheel? A problem was created and needs to be solved. Some of the most sucessful people of the word say to create a solultion rather than dwell on the problem. Control would be an instant problem solver and then in a calmer aftermath the problem can be addressed so it doesnt happen again. There has to be more than the slow way.
By lid I mean why are you trying to make it out like there is not a massive problem with predation? You accused people like me of damaging realtionship with other stalk holders, how are you going to please both sides and why are you wanting to? Seem like were stuck here in BC as the next biggest experiment rather than reverting back to what works.
Sure I am sometimes uniformed and its sometimes out of my league but people should hear from both sides of the fence rather than be run out of town for not agreeing.
You and Giest talking I would have liked to be a fly on that wall.....
He may just be the man for the job.... Hmm

How do you know reducing wolves in one area will 'solve the problem'? Wolves really haven't been a big issue until the last couple years. In the Cariboo moose numbers have never been as high as they were in the 80s, then again a dip in the 90s and now another decline - you probably have a long-term reduction in population which is likely attributable to the habitat and carrying capacity of the land. Mule deer in Region 4 have not been as high since the 80s, then they never recovered to the same population levels after the 90s. You need to start asking the questions why, because this all came about well before the wolf and the instances of die-offs were often related to severe winter conditions, declining habitat values, and disease.

Predator control is often not a problem solver, only a managed problem as it is often ongoing and costly. Unless when you say the 'aftermath' you mean by completely getting rid of wolves and all problems - would suggest that will never fly for a myriad of reasons. The quicker and proper way is to have $ for a proper wildlife management program where we can conduct research and regular inventories- then we would know what the problem is and we could justify any predator management plans that were subsequent to issues identified with high mortality rates.

Informed decisions and are the way to go - it's clear you won't please both sides, but you need to convince the people in the middle that what you are proposing is the right thing to do. Running around saying we have a massive problem and we need to kill all the wolves will net you zero points even amongst hunters, nevermind society, politicians and wildlife managers/researchers.

You're talking almost as if you know Geist, and you know the outcome of a conversation. Very presumptuous and very wrong.

[gcreek]

How do you know reducing wolves in one area will 'solve the problem'? Wolves really haven't been a big issue until the last couple years. In the Cariboo moose numbers have never been as high as they were in the 80s, then again a dip in the 90s and now another decline - you probably have a long-term reduction in population which is likely attributable to the habitat and carrying capacity of the land. Mule deer in Region 4 have not been as high since the 80s, then they never recovered to the same population levels after the 90s. You need to start asking the questions why, because this all came about well before the wolf and the instances of die-offs were often related to severe winter conditions, declining habitat values, and disease.

Predator control is often not a problem solver, only a managed problem as it is often ongoing and costly. Unless when you say the 'aftermath' you mean by completely getting rid of wolves and all problems - would suggest that will never fly for a myriad of reasons. The quicker and proper way is to have $ for a proper wildlife management program where we can conduct research and regular inventories- then we would know what the problem is and we could justify any predator management plans that were subsequent to issues identified with high mortality rates.

Informed decisions and are the way to go - it's clear you won't please both sides, but you need to convince the people in the middle that what you are proposing is the right thing to do. Running around saying we have a massive problem and we need to kill all the wolves will net you zero points even amongst hunters, nevermind society, politicians and wildlife managers/researchers.

You're talking almost as if you know Geist, and you know the outcome of a conversation. Very presumptuous and very wrong.

Only a biologist that is worried about his study dollars being used elsewhere would type such a bunch of drivel as this.

Yep, study the wolves and the bears until THEY starve to death. In this day and age of human population growth it would be prudent for the people, their elected govts. and THEIR govt employees to concentrate on saving ungulates that can feed us.

Your type seems to forget that while you play games with computer models that have a high percentage of failure the rest of us have to deal with the consequences.
It is unfortunate that unions and legislative laws prevent the public from taking Ministry "decision makers" to civil court on a personal basis. Maybe then your type would have to be accountable for your actions.

There have been ongoing "research" on wolf predation for 25 years and you experts still haven't figured out they kill to survive and increase far faster than their prey species until the food runs out.

It is also my stance that your kind won't be happy until you can justify closing hunting seasons for good and completely eradicating rangelands of the "evil rancher".

[GoatGuy]

Only a biologist that is worried about his study dollars being used elsewhere would type such a bunch of drivel as this.

Yep, study the wolves and the bears until THEY starve to death. In this day and age of human population growth it would be prudent for the people, their elected govts. and THEIR govt employees to concentrate on saving ungulates that can feed us.

Your type seems to forget that while you play games with computer models that have a high percentage of failure the rest of us have to deal with the consequences.
It is unfortunate that unions and legislative laws prevent the public from taking Ministry "decision makers" to civil court on a personal basis. Maybe then your type would have to be accountable for your actions.

There have been ongoing "research" on wolf predation for 25 years and you experts still haven't figured out they kill to survive and increase far faster than their prey species until the food runs out.

It is also my stance that your kind won't be happy until you can justify closing hunting seasons for good and completely eradicating rangelands of the "evil rancher".

That is a very valuable post - it's amazing that you could know so much about one person. You sure hit the nail on the head.

With all your talk please tell how you've been so successfull managing moose and predators over the last 30 and how you realized that success. Surely someone who knows so much has accomplished more.

For some reason I don't understand because by and large I see a wildlife management program with no funding, increasing predator populations and in some areas declining prey populations. Forgive me if I question your 'track record'.

[houndogger]

Wolves eat meat...study over. lol

[gcreek]

For some reason I don't understand because by and large I see a wildlife management program with no funding, increasing predator populations and in some areas declining prey populations. Forgive me if I question your 'track record'.

Maybe if do gooders like you had not put restrictions on those that were doing some good, had not been panty waists to a public opinion that had no clue and had not caved in to pressure from the hunting groups by actually restricting SOME areas to road hunting we actually would have some game left in this province. I don't believe any of the above would have cost the taxpayer as much as the "management" we are experiencing now.

As very few govt. employees actually have their own private businesses to know how a profit/loss sheet looks and will never have to be personally accountable for their own mistakes, I have lost all faith in their ability to manage this province. Their lemming-like scurrying to fix their past mistakes and forgetting that they need to look forward to get anywhere is bringing this province to a standstill. Most times too much schooling DOES interfere with real life education.

Paradigms are supposed to be solved not treated as a roadblock.

But, you clowns just keep leaning on the waterfountain and joking about your screwups while OUR province goes to hell in a handbag. It will be interesting who you are blaming when there are not enough tax dollars for your paychecks or your pensions.

Don't worry about me, a country boy can survive. (wink)


Funny how most folks that debate with you can answer your questions and you are unable to reciprocate. Kinda rude, don't you think?
Oh, I forgot again, you are still doing a study on the first one!

[91Jason91]

im hauling logs out of the west fraser road area. 4800 rd to be exact. there is a huge population of wolves in that area as well. ive seen several packs of wolves now and one is a huge pack. for me to see 50 wolves a week is nothing at all.

omg 50 a week is nothingn lol bring you gun and start blasting them

[Nekhani]

Pretty much common sense to realize that the high populations of Wolves are having a very negative affect on the survival rate of our ungulates. Sure doesn't hurt to err on the side of conservation and whack as many wolves as one can.

We have always shot every wolf we see and as long as you maintain that form of ungulate enghancement some of the ungulates will survive.

I agree with gcreek you have to keep hunting and trapping pressure on them. This does not require a study to know that, it is just common sense for anyone that lives where the wolves live. When you see wolves taking down the ungulates and find evidence of the same everywhere, it is not hard to figure out... You really do not have to study it that much.

Problem is that MOE is subject to so much contraversy from the Hypocritical Environmentalists that I am sure their hands are somewhat tied as to what culling action they can recommend.

Granted it is not just wolves that are the problem these days, but as long as you have a high population of wolves as well, the problem will not get better.

Prime time to kill wolves now, so everyone should try to do their best to thin them out.

[Husky7mm]

You're talking almost as if you know Geist, and you know the outcome of a conversation. Very presumptuous and very wrong.

Sorry I think you misunderstod me. Both of you are well educated, but its clear you see things differently. It would have been interesting to have seen how the converation played out.
Anyways it seems you would rather study wolves and the reasons their population got so high rather than tackle that problem immediatly. I guess we should just deplete the prey population (which are declined all ready) down further with super liberal regulations and hope the wolves just die off on there own. Thats humane, what do the stake holders at the other side of the specrum want, staving wolves killing each other in competition for food, that sure beats a cull? Its clear Geist theroy is true, when game declines they move on to alterante species (cattle), next is people. Thats whats going on nows, Nows the time.
One probelm with what were talking about here is things are getting muddled up. Moose in region 5 were not at CC, ELK in region 4 of the EK may have been close. Also its seems that region 5's wolf problem is worse than region 4's. Also you will have a tough time agrueing region 5s habitat was degraded and not capable of supporting more moose.

Has the theory of prey reduction been proven or is it just an experiment?
Since your in agreement on the declines why would you be willing to loose more inventory before acting?
Clearly there is an inventory problem in many parts of BC, I can back this by all the proposed closures on the ministry site. Many of them where just opened for more "opportunity". Peaks, valleys, overharvest and abundant preditors, I still believe its real and true and here.
Nows the time!!!

[olharley guy]

Howdy,

This is directed at the "EVIL RANCHER" -not sure how big or profitable your ranch is but why not go to your banker and triple your herd size on paper to be able to get a good line of credit so you can purchase a Super Cub with ski's. (used would be OK)

You seem to live in a prime seculded area and you should be able to have 20-40 wolf skins hanging before Spring it's been done before and I am sure it still being done now in the far North.

If this was to happen, when I was in your area to stop by for coffee, I would be able to show you the moose and with luck maybe even a Caribou that me and the wife have harvested. Ha! (Where there were none or very little before.)

Trust me - this is a sure fire method of control not total elimination! LOL Later
,

[GoatGuy]

Sorry I think you misunderstod me. Both of you are well educated, but its clear you see things differently. It would have been interesting to have seen how the converation played out.
Anyways it seems you would rather study wolves and the reasons their population got so high rather than tackle that problem immediatly. I guess we should just deplete the prey population (which are declined all ready) down further with super liberal regulations and hope the wolves just die off on there own. Thats humane, what do the stake holders at the other side of the specrum want, staving wolves killing each other in competition for food, that sure beats a cull? Its clear Geist theroy is true, when game declines they move on to alterante species (cattle), next is people. Thats whats going on nows, Nows the time.
One probelm with what were talking about here is things are getting muddled up. Moose in region 5 were not at CC, ELK in region 4 of the EK may have been close. Also its seems that region 5's wolf problem is worse than region 4's. Also you will have a tough time agrueing region 5s habitat was degraded and not capable of supporting more moose.

Has the theory of prey reduction been proven or is it just an experiment?
Since your in agreement on the declines why would you be willing to loose more inventory before acting?
Clearly there is an inventory problem in many parts of BC, I can back this by all the proposed closures on the ministry site. Many of them where just opened for more "opportunity". Peaks, valleys, overharvest and abundant preditors, I still believe its real and true and here.
Nows the time!!!

Geist and I agree - clearly you don't have the ability to read what I'm saying so I'll spell it out.

Unfortunately between you and CGreek there isn't a functioning thought outside of 'what I want'. Unfortunately for the two of you there are 4.4 million other people in BC who don't see the world the exact same way you do - in fact you will instantly turn them off. There are probably 400,000 who despise hunting and 4 million who teeter in the balance and who want to know what they're doing and supporting is right. Do you think that telling people who live in Vancouver that they're going to be killed by wolves is an effective strategy that will result in the justification of predator management? That is probably one of the dumbest remarks I have to read - equally as stupid as the stuff I get to hear out of the antis. Uninformed, biased and extreme opinions based in fear. The only place we see where that works is in extreme religions and we all know western culture don't like that approach.

The reason why predator management in BC is so difficult is because in the past people such as yourselves armed with all the opinion in the world got wolves listed in British Columbia because - they almost killed them all and society didn't like that. You might say good, and probably think that way but it don't fly with 90% of the people who live in British Columbia. This has left a never-ending black mark on any predator hunting in British Columbia. Grizzly bear management included and next, without a doubt, will be cougar and wolverine management. Do you think that's a success story for wildlife management in BC? All that mentality has done is pushed the control of wildlife management right away from science, conservation and hunting into anti-hunters hands. I would call that an abysmal failure!!

My advice is to quit acting like a couple children and start talking about valid, science based reasons for predator management if you a) want to convince society predator management is necessary b) get predator management in BC. If you don't get the people of BC on board you will not get sound wildlife management - PERIOD>

The alternative is what we have now - NOTHING. With all the ramblings by GCreek and the results that he has shown since the 80s - which is again NOTHING, (someone else's fault of course) - is exactly what we'll get in the future - NOTHING. You aren't the only two people in BC and BCers certainly will not tolerate you perspective, so you better come up with something a little less about 'me' and a little more about wildlife and wildlife management in BC. Otherwise, do the rest of us a favour, find another 'cause to support' cause it sure ain't helping anyone here.

[gcreek]

I guess we are even then because the MOE has done nothing for predator control since 10-80 was put under moratorium.

The MOE has done an even better job of promoting dislike of the evil rancher by restriction of permits to proven, qualified mitigators who were QUIETLY doing their jobs, giving mitigation to untrained, inexperienced and overworked CO's and putting a No Closed Season and No Bag Limit on wolves and then shouting to the world about how many wolves are going to be killed. BCCA has been overwhelmed with letters from concerned citizens and overseas anti's.
What is not realized by the anti's is that the increased percentage of wolves removed by these new regulations is minimal. Certainly the 39 or so wolves taken by the entire force of the COS in 2011 isn't going to change the situation much.

Why should it bother you that Husky and I are as vocal as the anti's? Someone has to tell the world our opinions. Just because I am outspoken doesn't mean that I'm alone, there are thousands with the same opinion as mine. Most of them are just too politically correct to say anything.

It is also interesting that fox hunting is still done in Britain, bull-fighting in Spain and Mexico, the Aussie's and Kiwi's remove any unwanted animal by any means they choose, Russia kills wolves however they want and we in BC are worried about public opinion of those who wouldn't know a wolf from a coyote if they ever saw one. When a job needs doing, no matter how unsavoury, get it done.

What would the LM look like if those guilty had to deal with their own garbage instead of sending it out of sight, out of mind? This may be a little harsh but the excess predators in this province, at this time, are really nothing more than un-needed furniture. I will agree that they are a part of nature but it is also a hard fact that the human race is also.

[GoatGuy]

I guess we are even then because the MOE has done nothing for predator control since 10-80 was put under moratorium.

The MOE has done an even better job of promoting dislike of the evil rancher by restriction of permits to proven, qualified mitigators who were QUIETLY doing their jobs, giving mitigation to untrained, inexperienced and overworked CO's and putting a No Closed Season and No Bag Limit on wolves and then shouting to the world about how many wolves are going to be killed. BCCA has been overwhelmed with letters from concerned citizens and overseas anti's.
What is not realized by the anti's is that the increased percentage of wolves removed by these new regulations is minimal. Certainly the 39 or so wolves taken by the entire force of the COS in 2011 isn't going to change the situation much.

Why should it bother you that Husky and I are as vocal as the anti's? Someone has to tell the world our opinions. Just because I am outspoken doesn't mean that I'm alone, there are thousands with the same opinion as mine. Most of them are just too politically correct to say anything.

It is also interesting that fox hunting is still done in Britain, bull-fighting in Spain and Mexico, the Aussie's and Kiwi's remove any unwanted animal by any means they choose, Russia kills wolves however they want and we in BC are worried about public opinion of those who wouldn't know a wolf from a coyote if they ever saw one. When a job needs doing, no matter how unsavoury, get it done.

What would the LM look like if those guilty had to deal with their own garbage instead of sending it out of sight, out of mind? This may be a little harsh but the excess predators in this province, at this time, are really nothing more than un-needed furniture. I will agree that they are a part of nature but it is also a hard fact that the human race is also.

Simple form:

The public votes for politicians
Politicians do what will get them re-elected

If the public doesn't like something they won't re-elect politicians.

The reason you should change is because what you've done in the past has not worked and has in fact been detrimental to wildlife management. Take the fact-based approach and you'll have far more buy-in then telling all the people in the LM they're going to be eaten by wolves.

[horshur]

gcreek....there is alot of evidence that has come out regarding the wolf reintroduction in the states using money's that were collected in taxes off of sportsmens purchases with the intent of setting up conditions where sportsmen have few animals to hunt. they used sportsmens money to screw sportsmen. There are several that see the wolf reintroduction as a very sly way of attacking grassroots folks.

I am not so sure that we are far off.

[horshur]

Simple form:

The public votes for politicians
Politicians do what will get them re-elected

If the public doesn't like something they won't re-elect politicians.

The reason you should change is because what you've done in the past has not worked and has in fact been detrimental to wildlife management. Take the fact-based approach and you'll have far more buy-in then telling all the people in the LM they're going to be eaten by wolves.


Bullshit! public votes for bread and circuses nothing else!

[gcreek]

Howdy,

This is directed at the "EVIL RANCHER" -not sure how big or profitable your ranch is but why not go to your banker and triple your herd size on paper to be able to get a good line of credit so you can purchase a Super Cub with ski's. (used would be OK)

You seem to live in a prime seculded area and you should be able to have 20-40 wolf skins hanging before Spring it's been done before and I am sure it still being done now in the far North.

If this was to happen, when I was in your area to stop by for coffee, I would be able to show you the moose and with luck maybe even a Caribou that me and the wife have harvested. Ha! (Where there were none or very little before.)

Trust me - this is a sure fire method of control not total elimination! LOL Later
,

Already at the limit! Ha.

Make you a better deal. You buy a helicopter complete with pilot and gather up some big support for lawyer fees, maybe even arrange an executive suite at the penitentery. A couple of autos and a few thousand rounds of ammo per month. I'll live out my life long dream and get as many wolves as possible until I'm caught.

You think we might qualify for a government grant?

[GoatGuy]

Bullshit! public votes for bread and circuses nothing else!

If that were true we'd still have an active predator management program. We don't.

[olharley guy]

Howdy gc - they seem to give grants for a thousand other useless projects, maybe we should apply. LOL

A few years back in the Yukon they did give my freind and I a permit for using his helicopter - a lot easier than my Cub -but that was when the wolves were coming into the subdivisions around town and taking quite a few dogs and cats right from peoples porches. They also killed and maimed quite a few horses very close to the town.

The locals put up a large outcry -afraid of children next -and the game branch agreed to do something about it. Which was the right thing to do in most peoples minds that live in the north.

A funny thing about this was the headlines in German newspapers that the wolves were attacking and killing people in Whitehorse.

One of the the reasons behind the cull was the thought of a drop in tourism from Europe to the Yukon plus the proximity of the animal attacks to homes with children. Later

[gcreek]

Simple form:

The public votes for politicians
Politicians do what will get them re-elected

If the public doesn't like something they won't re-elect politicians.

The reason you should change is because what you've done in the past has not worked and has in fact been detrimental to wildlife management. Take the fact-based approach and you'll have far more buy-in then telling all the people in the LM they're going to be eaten by wolves.

I haven't changed in the 34 years I've been in business for myself (I was completely on my own at 16 with 12 year's worth of schooling) but our civil servant agencies sure have.

Having a very good grasp on what happens behind the scenes isn't going to convince me to follow your advice anytime soon.

Politicians mostly rely on their staff and advisors for what they reveal to the public and to garner votes. It's unfortunate that when a politician is voted out that they cannot take their "baggage" with them.

It would be interesting to know what public opinion would be had wolves only been portayed as the efficient killers they are instead of the cuddly little creatures they have been. This phenominon was created by self-serving biologists both in and out of govt. and there has been very little attempt to tell the public the real truth by anyone. I know for fact of a few that tried and were removed from service by their peers.

Where have I not stated facts as I have observed them?

There was a strong dislike for lies instilled in me at a very young age. I haven't lost the ability because if you don't lie, you don't have to remember as well.

Is my credibility diminished because I don't have letters behind my name?

Come out of your closet GoatGuy, there is a big, bad world out here.

[gcreek]

Howdy gc - they seem to give grants for a thousand other useless projects, maybe we should apply. LOL

A few years back in the Yukon they did give my freind and I a permit for using his helicopter - a lot easier than my Cub -but that was when the wolves were coming into the subdivisions around town and taking quite a few dogs and cats right from peoples porches. They also killed and maimed quite a few horses very close to the town.

The locals put up a large outcry -afraid of children next -and the game branch agreed to do something about it. Which was the right thing to do in most peoples minds that live in the north.

A funny thing about this was the headlines in German newspapers that the wolves were attacking and killing people in Whitehorse.

One of the the reasons behind the cull was the thought of a drop in tourism from Europe to the Yukon plus the proximity of the animal attacks to homes with children. Later

Funny, we have nearly the same situation in various spots in BC and we're told that a loss of tourism may be experienced if we do kill a few wolves.

It is sad that most of our decision makers were brought up in a post kill to eat era. They are a far greater threat to our lifestyles and existance than the wolves.

[olharley guy]

If that were true we'd still have an active predator management program. We don't.


Howdy, So what is the solution? I certainly won't be around 30 years from now when the wolves die off from starvation and possibly,just possibly have the moose, deer and caribou population start to make a comeback.

You seem to be an intelligent person and should be able to come up with a sensible answer that we can all participate in and solve some of the predator issues. Later

[bc mike]

I don't think that the adverage voter cares about the out of control wolf problem when they cast a vote. Nor do they understand the wolves are killing machines. I agree with gcreek. The time for bowing to science and antis is long over. We need to see results.

[GoatGuy]

Howdy, So what is the solution? I certainly won't be around 30 years from now when the wolves die off from starvation and possibly,just possibly have the moose, deer and caribou population start to make a comeback.

You seem to be an intelligent person and should be able to come up with a sensible answer that we can all participate in and solve some of the predator issues. Later

Start with the threatened and endangered species and populations.

Mountain cariboo populations pretty much all across BC and particularly in the southeast corner. We've got a federal strategy and provincial strategy that both call for predator management and all kinds of science behind it.

Have it done with measurable objectives and a long-term goal; do it responsibly. This in itself will help all prey species, and there would be further opportunities to engage in science-based wildlife management thereafter.

[GoatGuy]

I haven't changed in the 34 years I've been in business for myself (I was completely on my own at 16 with 12 year's worth of schooling) but our civil servant agencies sure have.

Having a very good grasp on what happens behind the scenes isn't going to convince me to follow your advice anytime soon.

Politicians mostly rely on their staff and advisors for what they reveal to the public and to garner votes. It's unfortunate that when a politician is voted out that they cannot take their "baggage" with them.

It would be interesting to know what public opinion would be had wolves only been portayed as the efficient killers they are instead of the cuddly little creatures they have been. This phenominon was created by self-serving biologists both in and out of govt. and there has been very little attempt to tell the public the real truth by anyone. I know for fact of a few that tried and were removed from service by their peers.

Where have I not stated facts as I have observed them?

There was a strong dislike for lies instilled in me at a very young age. I haven't lost the ability because if you don't lie, you don't have to remember as well.

Is my credibility diminished because I don't have letters behind my name?

Come out of your closet GoatGuy, there is a big, bad world out here.

Like I said, blame it on everybody else - very easy approach.

You're going to have to figure out that what you've done in the past hasn't worked. After that we can make some progress.

[houndogger]

Like I said, blame it on everybody else - very easy approach.

You're going to have to figure out that what you've done in the past hasn't worked. After that we can make some progress.

Seemed to work for the yankees when they wiped out the wolves...the amount of bitching going on down south it won't be long and they will get started on it again...

[gcreek]

Like I said, blame it on everybody else - very easy approach.

You're going to have to figure out that what you've done in the past hasn't worked. After that we can make some progress.

I've done lots that hasn't worked, The School of Hard Knocks has been a very good teacher. One thing it teaches is that if you do something wrong you don't do the same thing over and expect different results.

However, I started with nothing but a vision, opportunity and the willingness to work my butt off. My wife and I now own an operation beyond double the scope of my original vision and we are still building. As our sons are happy building their own destinies away from the bush we are looking forward to finding a young, deserving couple who would accept a working partnership that would eventually have us bought out by the time we are put to rest.


Let me guess......
You spent several years in University paid for in part by govt. grants and went to work for the government.

You work hard at studying and annalizing various projects that largely give results you don't personally agree with.

When things go wrong you blame your co-workers or the politicians you so obviously despise and you can't understand why other people have their own opinions and sometimes disagree with you. When that happens you attempt to attack their integrity with weak responses.

You likely own a modest home, have/had a family and are now looking forward to retirement.

Does your boss know you're arguing with the "peons"?

[GoatGuy]

Seemed to work for the yankees when they wiped out the wolves...the amount of bitching going on down south it won't be long and they will get started on it again...

It's easy when as much as 25% of the population hunts. In BC 2% of the population hunts. It's all about the votes.

They also have money for inventory and management, something we don't. Refer to the point above.

[gcreek]

The American government has money..........

Now there's the laugh of the decade.

[srupp]

hmmm lots of emotion...read every line, and the Tribune circus, and the decision...lived here long enough to realize the previous Mr Lay had a reputation based on results... even difficult locations...Betty Franks related several very positive events about the Lays results and Betty herself was no slouch at trapping..

Dr.Doug Magnowski..lives in town...cougars are often inside the city limits..

C/os have plenty of work..imo not enough time to deal with all the preditor problems.. these are issues that require timely responses..lengthy time committment

I used to have to fly 20 minutes from the Mckenzie heliport in winter to spot wolves on the lakes in winter...now 5 minutes will do it....

recently went cat hunting in the West Chilcotin..saw 10 x the amount of fresh wolf tracks than deer tracks...literally every rd we travelled...far fewer tracks than even last year for deer..

yes ancedotal evidence...as well as rancher I know losing stock..Big Lake..Mcallister..Likely 108 rd..the entire area has now got major wolf issues..

How to solve it?? I am NOT an expert in wolf thinning..but seems like we need every resource...more trapping..experienced knowlegable ones..it cant hurt??maybe even more education on the decimation of caribou...and BAMBI for the public..culls...maybe even a bounty??... not too many wolf lovers here in the cariboo..Ok I know 1..but they OWN their own imported wolf thats in a pen....

cheers
Steven

[olharley guy]

Start with the threatened and endangered species and populations.

Mountain cariboo populations pretty much all across BC and particularly in the southeast corner. We've got a federal strategy and provincial strategy that both call for predator management and all kinds of science behind it.

Have it done with measurable objectives and a long-term goal; do it responsibly. This in itself will help all prey species, and there would be further opportunities to engage in science-based wildlife management thereafter.

Howdy, There are measurable objectives now - Example save the mountain caribou now and start culling some of the predators so we don't have to see the last two mating pair in some game farm, long term goal may be to late - that would be the responsible way.

Next thing in a few years will be the moose, deer and sheep on the endangered species list and every one who used to spend time in the widerness hunting etc. we'll all be watching old animal planet shows wishing we had done something with controlling the predators a lot earlier.

As I said in some posts a year or two ago -I have witnessed the destruction caused by wolves many times -

I took a biologist flying one winter up the Liard river to show him some moose that he wanted to see. In about a 15 mile stretch of the river we saw about 20+ killed by wolves and most were just killed not eaten whatsoever -personally I believe it was training for pups -a few more bends in the river and there they were. A very large pack heading for the timber.

I took the biologist back to Watson Lake and said tell this to you superiors - he said they wouldn't believe him! Scientific facts? !!!!!

Another time I met a couple female biologists from UBC that were going to the mouth of the Hyland river where it meets the Liard - there is a large burn there and they were using a snow machine to determine how many moose were in the area.

They were counting moose droppings!! I offered to take one of them and show them all the moose in that area and they said no as they also had to check the droppings for what they were eating - is there more than one kind of willow bush??

There are more examples but if this is the way scientfic studies are done - no wonder the animals are in trouble. As I said earlier I believe the long term goal may take to long.

The wolves will never become extinct by a good culling every few years. Later

[GoatGuy]

Howdy, There are measurable objectives now - Example save the mountain caribou now and start culling some of the predators so we don't have to see the last two mating pair in some game farm, long term goal may be to late - that would be the responsible way.

Next thing in a few years will be the moose, deer and sheep on the endangered species list and every one who used to spend time in the widerness hunting etc. we'll all be watching old animal planet shows wishing we had done something with controlling the predators a lot earlier.

As I said in some posts a year or two ago -I have witnessed the destruction caused by wolves many times -

I took a biologist flying one winter up the Liard river to show him some moose that he wanted to see. In about a 15 mile stretch of the river we saw about 20+ killed by wolves and most were just killed not eaten whatsoever -personally I believe it was training for pups -a few more bends in the river and there they were. A very large pack heading for the timber.

I took the biologist back to Watson Lake and said tell this to you superiors - he said they wouldn't believe him! Scientific facts? !!!!!

Another time I met a couple female biologists from UBC that were going to the mouth of the Hyland river where it meets the Liard - there is a large burn there and they were using a snow machine to determine how many moose were in the area.

They were counting moose droppings!! I offered to take one of them and show them all the moose in that area and they said no as they also had to check the droppings for what they were eating - is there more than one kind of willow bush??

There are more examples but if this is the way scientfic studies are done - no wonder the animals are in trouble. As I said earlier I believe the long term goal may take to long.

The wolves will never become extinct by a good culling every few years. Later

Agree with you on all of it. When it comes to caribou the studies are already done, we know the problems, just don't have enough people pushing for predator reduction. They've been doing it in Alberta for caribou for years. Just gotta get everyone on the bus and get things moving forward.

[GoatGuy]

The American government has money..........

Now there's the laugh of the decade.

In Washington state they probably get more money to inventory white-tails then we do for our entire annual wildlife inventory budget for all species, never mind the big hunting states like Montana and Utah.

The quality of your posts is getting quite poor, even for the internet. It's no surprise you're frustrated; sounds like most of it is self-induced and that is unfortunate for someone who is clearly passionate about the resource. My only suggestion is that if your approach hasn't worked for 30 years it might be time to change your tactics.

[hunter1947]

Using poison is the solution but will never happen that or take the wolves out using a chopper ,trapping and us as hunters will not work hunters or trapping never take out the whole pack at one time but as I said at the start of my post that would be the only way to illuminate the wolves ,if some of us new a chopper pilot and an OK from wildlife branch to shoot wolves from a chopper this would work.....

[The Dude]

http://wdfw.wa.gov/about/budget/graphics/chart02_11-13.jpg

Can't find the BC info.......yet....

Note: That's a TWO year budget.

[hunter1947]

http://wdfw.wa.gov/about/budget/graphics/chart02_11-13.jpg

Can't find the BC info.......yet....

Note: That's a TWO year budget.

Good post never thought fish where that hi on the scale..

[The Dude]

Shoot, that seemed low, so i went back....that's the allocation of funds from only one cource of income..... here's another:

http://wdfw.wa.gov/about/budget/graphics/chart03_11-13.jpg

[The Dude]

And here's the Big Picture over 2 years:

http://wdfw.wa.gov/about/budget/graphics/chart01_11-13.jpg

Anyone have the BC Numbers? I'd love to know where the money goes, and what comes back. (I know, general Revenues, but what comes back, and how is the HCTF money spent?)

[gcreek]

Using poison is the solution but will never happen that or take the wolves out using a chopper ,trapping and us as hunters will not work hunters or trapping never take out the whole pack at one time but as I said at the start of my post that would be the only way to illuminate the wolves ,if some of us new a chopper pilot and an OK from wildlife branch to shoot wolves from a chopper this would work.....

Good idea but will never fly so to speak. How could someone such as yourself, who has hunted and handled firearms his entire life, be qualified to shoot wolves from the air? The Bunny Brigade would never give up that kind of fun to a mere civilian like you or me.

[GoatGuy]

Weve got about 1.6 m spread over this year and next year, which includes $ for FN issues. That's significantly more than we've had for the last couple years.

[gcreek]

In Washington state they probably get more money to inventory white-tails then we do for our entire annual wildlife inventory budget for all species, never mind the big hunting states like Montana and Utah.

The quality of your posts is getting quite poor, even for the internet. It's no surprise you're frustrated; sounds like most of it is self-induced and that is unfortunate for someone who is clearly passionate about the resource. My only suggestion is that if your approach hasn't worked for 30 years it might be time to change your tactics.



YAWN

Feeling a crack in your egg GoatGuy?

[horshur]

Sorry Goat but your posts read like you want a different career.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Sorry Goat but your posts read like you want a different career.

A career is something you get paid for. Maybe it's time to find a new hobby to volunteer that other half of his life.
Frustrating no doubt.

Keep up the great work J!

SSS

[Husky7mm]

Agree with you on all of it. When it comes to caribou the studies are already done, we know the problems, just don't have enough people pushing for predator reduction. They've been doing it in Alberta for caribou for years. Just gotta get everyone on the bus and get things moving forward.

So call people idiots when they publicly push for it and buck the trend of bowing to the anti's. Your taking like a schizophrenic now.

[Husky7mm]

Simple form:

The public votes for politicians
Politicians do what will get them re-elected

If the public doesn't like something they won't re-elect politicians.


The reason you should change is because what you've done in the past has not worked and has in fact been detrimental to wildlife management. Take the fact-based approach and you'll have far more buy-in then telling all the people in the LM they're going to be eaten by wolves.

What has not worked in the past!!!!!!!!!! Bowing to anti-preditor control, thats what has'nt worked, pretty obvious...... My desire for change is far from selfish, it's bias for hunters, pretty obvious what side I'm on. One difference between us on this is you want to go in the back door and I want to go in the front. That tactic might work better, so lets get moving. Study time is over.
BTW booksmart, heres an interesting bit on how acruate some of these studies are. I have been, walking, driving and hiking all over the winter ranges close to cranbrook. Hugh peices of prime winter range, much of it "enhanced" years ago. Almost empty of game and tracks, places that once had game, (mostly elk) in the hundreds now in little fragmented groups or one and two's. What was supposed to take 6 yrs to reduced 30% has likely taking a year and by the second has put it far below. Now that GOS is coming to a screeching halt in just 2yrs. Now they're questioning the 2008 count??? Big surprise, they didnt actually count them. And you think your crap doesn't stink???? Thanks alot to science and never ending studies!!!! Someone should have to pay for this mess.....:evil: :cry:

[Husky7mm]

Further to the dumbest thing you have ever heard. A short while ago all of north america would have said the same thing about coyotes. Of coarse it wont happen on a large scale, but mark my words its going to happen. Thanks for the reminder that whole province is run by the bottom western corner. That will remain one BC's biggest problems. Teach me how I should feel when I look around and see and hear what going on. Its upsetting HOW SHOULD I FEEL?????????????

[6616]

I have been, walking, driving and hiking all over the winter ranges close to cranbrook. Hugh peices of prime winter range, much of it "enhanced" years ago. Almost empty of game and tracks, places that once had game, (mostly elk) in the hundreds now in little fragmented groups or one and two's.

Don't you suspect the reason for that might be because we have no snow this year?

[6616]

What was supposed to take 6 yrs to reduced 30% has likely taking a year and by the second has put it far below.

Don't you really think this statment is just a little bit of a stretch?

Those first three years of antlerless LEH the harvest was only 100 to 300 hundred cow elk per year, do you really think that's enough of a kill to reduce the population from 12,000 to 8500 considering at the same time spring calf ratios were 30 to 40 calves per 100 cows?

Your stressing yourself out over a non-existant problem with elk IMHO...!

[6616]

BTW booksmart, heres an interesting bit on how acruate some of these studies are. I have been, walking, driving and hiking all over the winter ranges close to cranbrook. Hugh peices of prime winter range, much of it "enhanced" years ago. Almost empty of game and tracks, places that once had game, (mostly elk) in the hundreds now in little fragmented groups or one and two's.

Furthermore, don't you think it's just a little presumptious of you to claim your personal observations trump Tara's surveys and data analysis ....?????

[GoatGuy]

What has not worked in the past!!!!!!!!!! Bowing to anti-preditor control, thats what has'nt worked, pretty obvious...... My desire for change is far from selfish, it's bias for hunters, pretty obvious what side I'm on. One difference between us on this is you want to go in the back door and I want to go in the front. That tactic might work better, so lets get moving. Study time is over.
BTW booksmart, heres an interesting bit on how acruate some of these studies are. I have been, walking, driving and hiking all over the winter ranges close to cranbrook. Hugh peices of prime winter range, much of it "enhanced" years ago. Almost empty of game and tracks, places that once had game, (mostly elk) in the hundreds now in little fragmented groups or one and two's. What was supposed to take 6 yrs to reduced 30% has likely taking a year and by the second has put it far below. Now that GOS is coming to a screeching halt in just 2yrs. Now they're questioning the 2008 count??? Big surprise, they didnt actually count them. And you think your crap doesn't stink???? Thanks alot to science and never ending studies!!!! Someone should have to pay for this mess.....:evil: :cry:

What has not worked in the past is the anti-science, kill every predator approach. It back fired big time and got us to where we are now. Where we are now is no funding for fish and wildlife management, generally declining hunters and anglers, declining habitat and wildlife populations in many areas, and no program program for research, inventory and management that informs us properly. The past is what created the mess we have today. I`m not sure how you can expect using the same approach that created the conditions we currently live in will result in any different kind of outcome particularly when you consider the number of people who now live in BC and have no attachment to the outdoors.

With your approach the public sees hunters as redneck, hillibillies that just want to kill everything. They picture a guy that shoots things for fun and shoots animals just for the sake of killing. That obviously isn`t true, but with your approach that is how they`ll see you. If that`s your approach then that is your choice. If we`ve learned anything from the past I would hope it is that acting like a bunch of religuous zealots back-fired on us decades ago.

You need a better approach and a plan if you`re going to see success. Otherwise you`re just hurting wildlife and conservationists (hunters) image.

[gcreek]

6616, most surveys and counts are done over a very small area of an MU. If it happens that there is a large proportion of the animals being counted in that small area, total numbers can be misconstrued when multiplications are completed. I have only been in the Kootenay's once a long time ago and am not familiar with what is going on there.

Sometimes it is a human mistake, sometimes it is a political bit of underhanded dealing such as the MOE claiming there aren't enough grizzlies in the Chilcotin for a small LEH draw. I would argue that bit of science vehemently also.

[GoatGuy]

6616, most surveys and counts are done over a very small area of an MU. If it happens that there is a large proportion of the animals being counted in that small area, total numbers can be misconstrued when multiplications are completed. I have only been in the Kootenay's once a long time ago and am not familiar with what is going on there.

Sometimes it is a human mistake, sometimes it is a political bit of underhanded dealing such as the MOE claiming there aren't enough grizzlies in the Chilcotin for a small LEH draw. I would argue that bit of science vehemently also.

They did srbs for the elk in the kootenays.

And they don`t create estimates for stratification counts, only minimum populations, which are often well below the actual population.

[gcreek]

What has not worked in the past is the anti-science, kill every predator approach. It back fired big time and got us to where we are now. Where we are now is no funding for fish and wildlife management, generally declining hunters and anglers, declining habitat and wildlife populations in many areas, and no program program for research, inventory and management that informs us properly. The past is what created the mess we have today. I`m not sure how you can expect using the same approach that created the conditions we currently live in will result in any different kind of outcome particularly when you consider the number of people who now live in BC and have no attachment to the outdoors.

With your approach the public sees hunters as redneck, hillibillies that just want to kill everything. They picture a guy that shoots things for fun and shoots animals just for the sake of killing. That obviously isn`t true, but with your approach that is how they`ll see you. If that`s your approach then that is your choice. If we`ve learned anything from the past I would hope it is that acting like a bunch of religuous zealots back-fired on us decades ago.

You need a better approach and a plan if you`re going to see success. Otherwise you`re just hurting wildlife and conservationists (hunters) image.


You wouldn't have something other than the Ministry programmed, robot recording that all bios seem to have imbedded into their brain? Afraid to step out of line and be branded a heretic?

I am aware that you do know what needs to be done about the wolves. All that is left is to QUIETLY DO IT.

So what back fired? A major reduction of predators that led to a very healthy population of ungulates that fed the native and white peoples of this province for a nearly 40 years?

[GoatGuy]

6616, most surveys and counts are done over a very small area of an MU. If it happens that there is a large proportion of the animals being counted in that small area, total numbers can be misconstrued when multiplications are completed. I have only been in the Kootenay's once a long time ago and am not familiar with what is going on there.

Sometimes it is a human mistake, sometimes it is a political bit of underhanded dealing such as the MOE claiming there aren't enough grizzlies in the Chilcotin for a small LEH draw. I would argue that bit of science vehemently also.

you should know grizzly bear hunting is not about managing wildlife, it`s politicial.

[6616]

6616, most surveys and counts are done over a very small area of an MU. If it happens that there is a large proportion of the animals being counted in that small area, total numbers can be misconstrued when multiplications are completed.

Only extensive stratified block inventory surveys attempt to come up with total number counts. These are huge and expensive month long surveys that cannot be done frequently because of the cost. Secondary intermediate surveys taken between these extensive inventories merely attempt to document trends so smaller test areas work if the survey sample is sufficient and conditions and grid flight lines are consistent from one survey to the next. Also herd composition surveys usually only attempt to determine population ratios like buck/doe, bull/cow, fawn/doe or calf/cow ratios. Additionally nearly all surveys occur on winter ranges which are well delineated areas and make up only small portions of MUs, when all the animals are on the winter range it's pretty useless to survey the entire MU. Of course I'm speaking about the mountainous terrain of the Kootenays and winter ranges may be much broader and populations more dispersed in areas like your locale.

[The Dude]

Why don't you two get a room? :D

[GoatGuy]

You wouldn't have something other than the Ministry programmed, robot recording that all bios seem to have imbedded into their brain? Afraid to step out of line and be branded a heretic?

I am aware that you do know what needs to be done about the wolves. All that is left is to QUIETLY DO IT.

So what back fired? A major reduction of predators that led to a very healthy population of ungulates that fed the native and white peoples of this province for a nearly 40 years?

It's all just numbers, most of the inventory is good, but you have to understand it to know when it isn't. Unfortunately, most people don't know and take things how they want.

The biggest hurdle is the baggage that has been left over. Nobody said it had to be done quietly - just don't act like a anti-science, religious zealot is all I'm saying.

[olharley guy]

It's all just numbers, most of the inventory is good, but you have to understand it to know when it isn't. Unfortunately, most people don't know and take things how they want.

The biggest hurdle is the baggage that has been left over. Nobody said it had to be done quietly - just don't act like a anti-science, religious zealot is all I'm saying.

Howdy again, 50-50 on scientific data! Sometimes it seems to me they are a waste of taxpayers dollars.

Look at the Beverly caribou herd in the Arctic that the "scientists" said were lost - 200,000 plus animals for two years -then suddenly found, the natives said they were around but what do people in smaller communities that maybe have grade 4 education know? They actually know quite a bit!

It certainly seems that a lot of educated people do not want to listen to the average joe.

On another subject about culling of certain species for the benefit of some other animals and humans - you know and I know government employees definetly hate making any desicions or take responsibility that make any waves and jepordize their high salaries and great pensions on retirement etc.

They do not want to take the letters and calls from PETA, Sierra Club, movie stars and all the rest of the do gooders - I thought that was their job to handle these type of complaints. Let's do nothing or send them another form letter answer and maybe the complainers will forget what they are complaing about!

No I am wrong-let's do a 1.5 million dollar study to see if there are really a lot of predators out there and in two years-Gee Whiz the population of the grass eaters is sure low-maybe it is time to get rid of some of these wolves etc. the ordinary people and first nations have been talking about for the last 5 plus years.

The amount of money spent on these studies and research could be put to better use as far as I am concerned like helicopter time. Don't need poison-just good pilots and shooters.

We have the grunts in the field who probably know what is going on who tell their supervisors, who pass on a memo to the district manager, who passes it to the deputy minister who eventually passes it on to the minister for wildlife in B.C. (probably 3 or 4 others in between get to read it)

Then 6 months-one year later he states we are having an election soon - put this on the back burner for awhile -again nothing gets done!

Now what I would like to know is how do we get this problem solved??? I don't know!

BCWF - I am sure most of us on here are members and if not they should be and everyone should put a little pressure on them to approach the Minister in a little more demanding attitude to look into this without a 2 - 3 year study. This could be a start.

My little rant for today after reading more of these posts. Later

[gcreek]

It's all just numbers, most of the inventory is good, but you have to understand it to know when it isn't. Unfortunately, most people don't know and take things how they want.

The biggest hurdle is the baggage that has been left over. Nobody said it had to be done quietly - just don't act like a anti-science, religious zealot is all I'm saying.

How do you come to the conclusion that "most of the inventory is good"? I've talked to several people who hunted various game in different parts of the province this year and a lot of folks on here that are saying the same thing. I CAN understand it when willow flats that normally in the past ten years have had up to 30 moose wintering on them are deviod of moose now!

Not much if any game compared to previous years but predators everywhere in most parts of the province.

Has any of this evidence been passed on to the anti's? Not that I've seen other than agricultural publications and very little in those coming from government.
Are the anti's easier to submit to than those that actually have a stake in issue or are they the side MOE really wants to be on?

They were counting moose here yesterday, it will be interesting to find out how much difference there is between a scientific count and my own "hillbilly" estimation. (in your words)

FYI, I am not anti-science, I AM anti-do nothing to act when a job needs done, I am also for Christianity and not much on Religeon.

[gcreek]

Why don't you two get a room? :D


I'm not THAT kinda guy!

Have you some input on the issue?

[horshur]

So Goat the guy that got most of the press last time was acting rationaly and truthfully based on science?....Watson.

you have cannot deduce that the reason things are like this now is because of what happened before.......what happened before was a rational response to living on the edge or middle of wilderness and trying to survive when a single calf was worth somthing and society wasn't gonna write a cheque if Peter needed it for dinner....things are like they are now because few have any rational reason to dislike a wolfs actions because they do not effect them any way at all. Trust me when the urban creature steps out of the cage and tries living differently they change there tune when Thomas kills Barney in the horse shed. It is even more shocking when they try to do somthing to protect their animals and come hard against the gun and wildlife laws that limit them or anyone who could help.

[bc mike]

Most of the domesticated wolves won't eat anything or than dog food. Of course, being an expert, you already know that.

I wasn't sure about this. I emailed Northern Lights Wildlife. Their response was "their adverage wolf eats 31 pounds of MEAT per day. Road kill, freezer burnt, old and injured animals. 50% donated and 50% purchased".

Considering in the wild that is 31 pounds of moose, deer, cattle etc per day, per wolf. Probably on the low side. Not including the pounds of meat they leave and move on. With the out of control wolf numbers I don't understand why there is this tone of debate on here. The time for action was last year! and the clock ticks away.

[6616]

Considering in the wild that is 31 pounds of moose, deer, cattle etc per day, per wolf. Probably on the low side. Not including the pounds of meat they leave and move on. With the out of control wolf numbers I don't understand why there is this tone of debate on here. The time for action was last year! and the clock ticks away.

I don't think anyone on here disagrees with you, it's just that there seems to be some varying opinions on how to get it done.

[gcreek]

It doesn't matter HOW it gets done!

The job needs to be done now!

I am not going to quote any numbers until I have a more trustworthy source but the count here sounds more dismal than I had anticipated. Not sure if they are finished yet or if they are going to started lifting rocks and stumps next.

[Husky7mm]

Its worrys me that not much of anything has been done to address these concerns. My tone has remained the same. Was my hair and that of my local piers really on fire? If the only way forward is to first get a small wedge in the door, it is clear I don't have the tact for that. Who has our best interest at heart, who is the person for the job? So may groups which one best represents the hunter and who has the most influence? I dont really see any body stepping up to the plate. The bio I was talking to was goning to forward to the BCWF, but so far I haven't heard their take on things.
If you read the info on controll of a species, protection of the caribou and livestock already justify the control. I dont know why it is not already happening for those situations? Considering the limited amount of money available for wildlife, was it used wisely studying when everyone was already crying about to many wolves?
BTW I like Tara, and I hope I'm wrong.....
And I'm sorry for the muddling details and facts sometimes, but I would like to think the climate is changing because people are rattling a few cages, and pushing a few buttons, and creating a buzz, which is more than I can say for the folks who think this is just off season ranting.

[6616]

Its worrys me that not much of anything has been done to address these concerns. My tone has remained the same. Was my hair and that of my local piers really on fire? If the only way forward is to first get a small wedge in the door, it is clear I don't have the tact for that. Who has our best interest at heart, who is the person for the job? So may groups which one best represents the hunter and who has the most influence? I dont really see any body stepping up to the plate. The bio I was talking to was goning to forward to the BCWF, but so far I haven't heard their take on things.
If you read the info on controll of a species, protection of the caribou and livestock already justify the control. I dont know why it is not already happening for those situations? Considering the limited amount of money available for wildlife, was it used wisely studying when everyone was already crying about to many wolves?
BTW I like Tara, and I hope I'm wrong.....
And I'm sorry for the muddling details and facts sometimes, but I would like to think the climate is changing because people are rattling a few cages, and pushing a few buttons, and creating a buzz, which is more than I can say for the folks who think this is just off season ranting.

The BCWF is working quietly behind the scenes to do what obviously needs to be done in caribou recovery areas (one step at a time), even baby steps are big steps in such a sensitive issue. At the recent KWHAC (Kootenay Wildlife Harvest Advisory Committee) meeting all BCWF reps spoke about predator management being needed and also suggested we need an official Wolf Management Plan in Region 4 and also (you will like this) recommended stopping the any-buck season on mule deer across the entire region. Those are the official BCWF positions in the Kootenay's

What study are you talking about regarding whether the money was spent wisely, I don't recall any studies being done on the predator issue? Are you talking about the mule deer and moose composition surveys, are you suggesting we stop monitoring ungulate populations and throw all our money into wolf control? You should know that needs authorization from Victoria and is a decision that cannot be made at the regional level or we'd already be doing it. Predator management is a purely political issue in BC and we're not going to get anywhere talking to bios who already agree with us, we need to be talking to MLAs about that if we ever want to see any action.

[Husky7mm]

Thank you. I am not against an buck season. But thank you. Your not kidding when you say quietly. Is there a better chioce yet, I dont here anything about the BCWF down here, but feel the need to join a well equipt team and stay informed.
By money spent wisely I mean past and current studies on wolves and cougars to confirm what is already quite evident. Less money towards studing them and more spent on mule deer and moose and the likes. Those preditors (wolves mostly) seem to do quite well on their own, regardless of liberal seasons and such. Kind of like the WT, not a lot of worry or management plans. They are around, so must be making a living, dont worry about them. ( having a hard time typing what I am trying to say) sorry.

[GoatGuy]

So Goat the guy that got most of the press last time was acting rationaly and truthfully based on science?....Watson.

you have cannot deduce that the reason things are like this now is because of what happened before.......what happened before was a rational response to living on the edge or middle of wilderness and trying to survive when a single calf was worth somthing and society wasn't gonna write a cheque if Peter needed it for dinner....things are like they are now because few have any rational reason to dislike a wolfs actions because they do not effect them any way at all. Trust me when the urban creature steps out of the cage and tries living differently they change there tune when Thomas kills Barney in the horse shed. It is even more shocking when they try to do somthing to protect their animals and come hard against the gun and wildlife laws that limit them or anyone who could help.

That's what is rational from your prophetic perspective. The people in BC who are isolated from nature will by and large be isolated forever, so you better come up with a better plan to rationalize wildlife management.

[bc mike]

I think every method should be used to catch up with our wolf problem. Open all MU with NBL is obvious, trapping, poison where needed and we have a military. The military have helicopters and sharp shooters....why not use them where it is pratical?!? Take a trapping course, trap a wolf and get your course fee back. Hunters that shoot a wolf get their hunting license fee back. Get the word out that you do not need a tag to shoot a wolf. Just some ideas to get many different groups focused on a common cause. The antis will squawk a bit at the beginning but that is generally short lived. If you have a dog that looks like a wolf then I'd leave it at home for awhile!

[cruiser]

I wasn't sure about this. I emailed Northern Lights Wildlife. Their response was "their adverage wolf eats 31 pounds of MEAT per day. Road kill, freezer burnt, old and injured animals. 50% donated and 50% purchased".

Considering in the wild that is 31 pounds of moose, deer, cattle etc per day, per wolf. Probably on the low side. Not including the pounds of meat they leave and move on. With the out of control wolf numbers I don't understand why there is this tone of debate on here. The time for action was last year! and the clock ticks away.

Figured this must be a typo. That would be half to a third of their weight per day. I'd guess they meant 3.1lbs/day.

Random google search says:


19. How much do wolves eat?
Getting enough to eat is a full-time job for a wolf. When wolves catch and kill a large mammal, they will gorge and then rest while the food is being rapidly digested. They will generally consume all but the hide, some of the large bones and skull and the rumen (stomach contents of ungulates) of their prey. Gray wolves can survive on about 2 1/2 pounds of food per wolf per day, but they require about 7 pounds per wolf per day to reproduce successfully. The most a large gray wolf can eat at one time is about 22.5 pounds. Adult wolves can survive for days and even weeks without food if they have to. Growing pups, however, require regular nourishment in order to be strong enough to travel and hunt with the adults by the autumn of their first year. Wolves often rely on food they have cached after a successful hunt in order to see them through lean times.

[Husky7mm]

That's what is rational from your prophetic perspective. The people in BC who are isolated from nature will by and large be isolated forever, so you better come up with a better plan to rationalize wildlife management.

What was said does make some sense though. How many of these disconnected people would even know anything about preditor control or hear of it before it happen? Should the concerns of a person that has wolves running through their feilds and back yards and in the vicinity of their childrens bus stops not be put in front of those who couldn't even tell the difference between a wolf and a coyote? Likely either way it goes has no effect on them whatsoever?

[6616]

Thank you. I am not against an buck season. But thank you. Your not kidding when you say quietly. Is there a better chioce yet, I dont here anything about the BCWF down here, but feel the need to join a well equipt team and stay informed.
By money spent wisely I mean past and current studies on wolves and cougars to confirm what is already quite evident. Less money towards studing them and more spent on mule deer and moose and the likes. Those preditors (wolves mostly) seem to do quite well on their own, regardless of liberal seasons and such. Kind of like the WT, not a lot of worry or management plans. They are around, so must be making a living, dont worry about them. ( having a hard time typing what I am trying to say) sorry.

I think I know what you're trying to say, wolves and WTD can look after themselves and will be around no matter what, no conservation concerns. The thing about a wolf management plan is not necessarily for conservation concerns. There would be trigger points that indicate when action needs to be taken (whether that trigger point is low or high population levels) which makes it easier to take that action since high level officials and politicians wouldn't have to stick their neck out. They could merely say "we're following the scientific management plan".

[GoatGuy]

What was said does make some sense though. How many of these disconnected people would even know anything about preditor control or hear of it before it happen? Should the concerns of a person that has wolves running through their feilds and back yards and in the vicinity of their childrens bus stops not be put in front of those who couldn't even tell the difference between a wolf and a coyote? Likely either way it goes has no effect on them whatsoever?

It makes sense to you, because you're connected. Need to get over the thought process that all of soceity thinks the exact same way hunters do. They don't!

That's why you need a plan. You need to ask yourself: For what reasons will these people support wildlife management?

[gcreek]

It makes sense to you, because you're connected. Need to get over the thought process that all of soceity thinks the exact same way hunters do. They don't!

That's why you need a plan. You need to ask yourself: For what reasons will these people support wildlife management?



OK GoatGuy, why has it taken over a decade in some areas where cariboo survival is a concern and the wolf population is still growing to come up with no effective plan?

I cite the Quesnel Lake boondoggle that cost taxpayers plenty and had no positive effect on the cariboo herd as an example.
One of the posters here is a rancher who has felt the full brunt of the split packs that were created there so please don't disqualify my statement.
Some bios with nothing to lose had fun though...... I would guess that may be considered a positive.

[GoatGuy]

OK GoatGuy, why has it taken over a decade in some areas where cariboo survival is a concern and the wolf population is still growing to come up with no effective plan?

I cite the Quesnel Lake boondoggle that cost taxpayers plenty and had no positive effect on the cariboo herd as an example.
One of the posters here is a rancher who has felt the full brunt of the split packs that were created there so please don't disqualify my statement.
Some bios with nothing to lose had fun though...... I would guess that may be considered a positive.

Lack of organization and support from people affected. People caring only about species that they perceive have value.

[gcreek]

Lack of organization and support from people affected. People caring only about species that they perceive have value.

I'll agree with you on the lack of organization. I know there is support from individuals and small groups from ag, hunting, and native sectors for action to be done with wolves.

All species have some value to add to the mix, that's a given. As modern humans are not basically hunter-gatherers anymore, habitats paved or plowed under, other uses that we selfishly take from the wild, etc. we have now given ourselves responsiblity to manage wildlife.

All who are involved in this issue know what has to be done and are all well aware it is not a nice thing to do (unless you are the prey), if it can't be accomplished by govt. then let the stakeholders look after it themselves as has been done in the not so long past.

Another arguement that could be used is the manner "city people" treat their unwanted pets. Just drop them off at the SPCA and they will look after the grisly details in short time if the unfortunate pet is not adopted. I wonder how many of this type are at the same time donating to anti organisations?

[horshur]

That's what is rational from your prophetic perspective. The people in BC who are isolated from nature will by and large be isolated forever, so you better come up with a better plan to rationalize wildlife management.

I want to hear "your"(GOATGUY) better plan....

[Husky7mm]

It makes sense to you, because you're connected. Need to get over the thought process that all of soceity thinks the exact same way hunters do. They don't!

That's why you need a plan. You need to ask yourself: For what reasons will these people support wildlife management?

True, but we dont exactly need to rewrite the book here, at least not for the caribou and livestock confict area's. It is already included in your policy for control of a species. You have the authorization to use it, you just are not. I know a decision was made to "encourage" tappers and liberalize the season, rather than excersise the control. Push the button.
Do you have to contact all these disconnected people when you tripled the grizzly tags in many zones? Did all these diconnected people have the end say in the deer culls that have been going on from town to town? I am sure they are opposed to all of it but you have policies in place already so they just go and do it. I am aware you can't do it all over the province at this time. These people may support wildlife management when they hear of its benifits for the "threated" mountain caribou, and the spin off it had for the low cow :calf, fawn:doe ratio's of other species in those zones. Success stories.
These disconneted people with a "world of knowledge" need to be educated by more than just the last bunny lover that talked to them.
Push the button, lets see what happens.

[houndogger]

I want to hear "your"(GOATGUY) better plan....
Keep talking in circles like this and basically wait till they starve...

[GoatGuy]

Think we already covered this.

Start supporting predator management (not control) for livestock and listed species (caribou recovery) as part of the broader context of wildlife management. Write your MLA, leaders of both parties, environment critic for Ndp, minister of environment, minister of natural resource operations weekly. Base your argument on science and wildlife management - don't take the anti-wolf or anti-predator approach. Sure tell them what you see or don't see but don't act like a nimrod.

Don't bother wasting your time bagging on bureaucrats - deal with the politicians. They have the power and the ability to make it happen. Most of the wildlife researchers and managers know what's going on, but the ability to conduct real wildlife management is well above their head.

Then start writing letters to the editor on the same issue and when it breaks in the province/sun/globe, which it will and it will be anti-hunting, write a response along the same lines as you wrote the politicians.

It will take doing, not talking on the Internet. Unfortunately there's lots of talking here but when it comes down to anti-hunting articles and anti-predator management in the media there's no support for the people who get interviewed. Silence of the lambs if you will.

[Husky7mm]

Thank you.

[bearvalley]

Think we already covered this.

Start supporting predator management (not control) for livestock and listed species (caribou recovery) as part of the broader context of wildlife management. Write your MLA, leaders of both parties, environment critic for Ndp, minister of environment, minister of natural resource operations weekly. Base your argument on science and wildlife management - don't take the anti-wolf or anti-predator approach. Sure tell them what you see or don't see but don't act like a nimrod.

Don't bother wasting your time bagging on bureaucrats - deal with the politicians. They have the power and the ability to make it happen. Most of the wildlife researchers and managers know what's going on, but the ability to conduct real wildlife management is well above their head.

Then start writing letters to the editor on the same issue and when it breaks in the province/sun/globe, which it will and it will be anti-hunting, write a response along the same lines as you wrote the politicians.

It will take doing, not talking on the Internet. Unfortunately there's lots of talking here but when it comes down to anti-hunting articles and anti-predator management in the media there's no support for the people who get interviewed. Silence of the lambs if you will.
141 posts and almost 2 weeks and you are starting to talk some sense

[GoatGuy]

141 posts and almost 2 weeks and you are starting to talk some sense

Read what is written, not what you want to hear. Easy thing to do.

[The Dude]

I wasn't sure about this. I emailed Northern Lights Wildlife. Their response was "their adverage wolf eats 31 pounds of MEAT per day. Road kill, freezer burnt, old and injured animals. 50% donated and 50% purchased".

Considering in the wild that is 31 pounds of moose, deer, cattle etc per day, per wolf. Probably on the low side. Not including the pounds of meat they leave and move on. With the out of control wolf numbers I don't understand why there is this tone of debate on here. The time for action was last year! and the clock ticks away.


Not a chance.....how do I know?

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj313/Heliox18/LoboatVanierPointSmallFile.jpg

You either read that wrong, it's a typo, or they sniff glue.