Hunting Caliber restrictions?

[Matty_ola]

Can someone point me to the part of the BC hunting regs that says you cannot hunt large game with a small caliber bullet?

I looked through the regs but I could be blind, The only thing I see for restrictions is you have to use a centerfire cartridge on large game.

If that's the case what's stopping some joe blow from shooting deer with a .17 Bee or a 222 Rem ???

I'm having the argument with a douche bag buddie of mine that says the regs don't say anything about caliber so he can head out with his XCR chambered in 5.56 and shoot mule deer or moose or whatever...

[Gateholio]

Can someone point me to the part of the BC hunting regs that says you cannot hunt large game with a small caliber bullet?

I looked through the regs but I could be blind, The only thing I see for restrictions is you have to use a centerfire cartridge on large game.

If that's the case what's stopping some joe blow from shooting deer with a .17 Bee or a 222 Rem ???

I'm having the argument with a douche bag buddie of mine that says the regs don't say anything about caliber so he can head out with his XCR chambered in 5.56 and shoot mule deer or moose or whatever...


Your douche bag buddy is correct, and you are incorrect.

Only thing he cannot shoot is bison, which has minimum bullet weight and energy requirements.

[Matty_ola]

I still say it needs to be changed, some will argue I'm sure but I'm thinking a 17 or 22 cal bullet is not going to carry the energy needed to make a clean and quick kill.

I think Alberta is what I'm thinking about, they have a min .23 cal for hunting large game.

[Gateholio]

Why do we need to introduce further restrictions? I've killed or seen killed deer and black bear with .22 caliber centerfire cartridges, using TSX bullets.

[Hunter Dog]

Could you please post a picture of the .17Bee? I would love to see this beast!

[recoil]

I would rather hunt with someone that is deady accurate with a .223 than someone that sprays 300 magnum bullets everywhere.

[Singleshotneeded]

X2 on recoil's comment, but I think the majority of us see the .243Win as a minimum sportsmanlike calibre for medium game.

[Tikka270]

I've shot deer on the island with a .22 hornet as a young teenager. Never any problems,never any lost game and most were one shot kills.
My grandpa said he used to hunt elk with a .22lr from a boat during the 50's or 60's. He said he would just take head shots.

[vortex hunter]

Gatehouse for KING

[elkdom]

Why do we need to introduce further restrictions? I've killed or seen killed deer and black bear with .22 caliber centerfire cartridges, using TSX bullets.

and to make the OP become even more disturbed :?

I have witnessed numerous moose, deer and bears killed with 45grn lead .22 LR rim-fire bullets, they ALL went bag-flop ---------------DEAD !

it's ALL about bullet placement !

a lot of "persons",, lets not mention names( M--ola) lol !, cant even READ and Comprehend the BC Hunting Regulations,
why complicate things more, with more regulations ??

[Barracuda]

I will take my 223 with tsx over a bigger caliber with crap bullets or poor shot placement. like everything just pick and choose your shots

[Str8shooterbc]

After moving back to BC in 2005 I was disturbed to find that the minimum 24 calibre for big game hunting that used to be in the regulations years ago was no longer there. If you go to the 2010-11 BC Hunting Regulation Synopsis (page 16) you will find Legal Hunting Methods & Bag Limits. The table will give you types of firearms and bows that are to be used to harvest game.

As mentioned I was disturbed when I first saw this but after thinking about it for a while I started to realize that bullet development over the last 30 years has made smaller calibres capable of cleanly taking big game. I remember when I had a gun shop in Prince George in the early 80's I had some customers in the NWT that favoured a 22 Hornet for Caribou and Muskox. I did not question their sanity. Personally I will continue to use a 270Win or 7mm-08 for most of my hunting. I'm a fan of Jack O'Conner. If I were a follower of Elmer Kieth, who said a 270Win just bounced off Moose and Elk, I probably would be hunting with a 375H&H. I guess times change and many things just get better and I suppose bullet construction and performance is just one of those things.

[Matty_ola]

So tell me why when I look back on previous posts by all those who think a .22 would be more than enough gun, nobody has EVER recomended a rifle chambered in .223 .222 or ever 22-250 for a good all around deer rifle? Seems to me like all of many of you seem to think it can kill a deer dead in it's tracks so why don''t you use one? No recoil, Little noise and so on.

Here's a thread from a novice hunter looking for an all around ungulate cartridge
http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?75085-What-s-a-good-rifle-for-hunting-all-ungulates/page2

I'm confused why none of the people here ever mentioned the mighty .223 as a candidate? In fact I didn't see one person on all 7 pages say anything about a the .22 caliber family being a good choice for deer although on here many of you are more than happy with the performance as a hunting cartridge.

[Amphibious]

So tell me why when I look back on previous posts by all those who think a .22 would be more than enough gun, nobody has EVER recomended a rifle chambered in .223 .222 or ever 22-250 for a good all around deer rifle? Seems to me like all of many of you seem to think it can kill a deer dead in it's tracks so why don''t you use one? No recoil, Little noise and so on.

Here's a thread from a novice hunter looking for an all around ungulate cartridge
http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?75085-What-s-a-good-rifle-for-hunting-all-ungulates/page2

I'm confused why none of the people here ever mentioned the mighty .223 as a candidate? In fact I didn't see one person on all 7 pages say anything about a the .22 caliber family being a good choice for deer although on here many of you are more than happy with the performance as a hunting cartridge.

If you had to tow a 1500lb boat regularly, and the Ford Ranger and F150 were the same price, would you tell some one to buy the ranger?

A .22 centerfire, in experienced hands will kill any game in BC, but why go out of your way to handicap yourself when for the same price you could step into a 7mm/30cal and give yourself that much more room for error? use your head.

of course we all can't be a 388 King....

[Camp Cook]

30 years ago I shot over 20 blacktail deer with my Ruger M77 tang safety rifle chambered in 22-250 there were no special bullets avaiable back then I just used 55gr Sierra spitzers @ 3660fps muzzle velocity.

I kept all shots within 100 yards and every deer I shot was a bang flop.

Do I recommend a .224" bullet/cartridge for hunting deer or larger game absolutely not but it can be done reliably if the shooter picks his shots and puts the bullet where it counts.

[Barracuda]

almost all the factory loads are for target or varmints so handloading of a big game bullet is needed .
You will need the proper twist rate to stabilize the appropriate bullet and the ability for most to pass on a shot or have enough skill to place shot correctly is not all that common .

And yes a 22 centerfire has been used and promoted as a viable big game cartridge on this forum .

[Gateholio]

So tell me why when I look back on previous posts by all those who think a .22 would be more than enough gun, nobody has EVER recomended a rifle chambered in .223 .222 or ever 22-250 for a good all around deer rifle? Seems to me like all of many of you seem to think it can kill a deer dead in it's tracks so why don''t you use one? No recoil, Little noise and so on.

Here's a thread from a novice hunter looking for an all around ungulate cartridge
http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?75085-What-s-a-good-rifle-for-hunting-all-ungulates/page2

I'm confused why none of the people here ever mentioned the mighty .223 as a candidate? In fact I didn't see one person on all 7 pages say anything about a the .22 caliber family being a good choice for deer although on here many of you are more than happy with the performance as a hunting cartridge.



What does this have to do with making it a law that someone can't use a .223?

Before introducing any sort of restrictive legislation, we should always determine if there actually is a problem.

Is there a problem with hunters using a .223 and with good shot placement the bullet is bouncing off the deer and wounding it? How many times does this happen? How does this number compare to guys wounding animals with their 30-06 because of poor shooting?

What is the real problem?

[bearhunter338-06]

So tell me why when I look back on previous posts by all those who think a .22 would be more than enough gun, nobody has EVER recomended a rifle chambered in .223 .222 or ever 22-250 for a good all around deer rifle? Seems to me like all of many of you seem to think it can kill a deer dead in it's tracks so why don''t you use one? No recoil, Little noise and so on.

Here's a thread from a novice hunter looking for an all around ungulate cartridge
http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?75085-What-s-a-good-rifle-for-hunting-all-ungulates/page2

I'm confused why none of the people here ever mentioned the mighty .223 as a candidate? In fact I didn't see one person on all 7 pages say anything about a the .22 caliber family being a good choice for deer although on here many of you are more than happy with the performance as a hunting cartridge.

I would say that most people asking advice on a new rifle are more beginner hunters, and although the mighty 22 cal can and will kill with the right shot and right bullet like the Barnes TSX or TTSX. New hunter do not reload for that fact most hunters don't re-load. So I for one would not suggest a 22-250 or 223 as a hunting rifle for deer. I foresee a lot of wounded animals running around after being shot with a varmint bullet that may or may not get into the heart/lung area for a kill..

[Barracuda]

another great story from days gone by http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?26675-Flat-Tops-amp-Fireballs&highlight=fireballs

[Str8shooterbc]

For me personally I don't want to hunt with the least possible power because not always do things go right. Using a .22 calibre on Vancouver Island Deer might be OK but I really don't believe it is for the huge Mulies high up in the Rockies. I also think that using a 243Win on Elk is too light, perhaps even a 270Win, which I use as well as many others.

I wouldn't want a Grizzly answering "The Dinner Bell" while armed with a 243Win much less than a high power .22 of some sort.

[Matty_ola]

of course we all can't be a 388 King.... I'm not sure who shoots a 388 but it isn't me. I prefer the 338;)

[Caveman]

another great story from days gone by http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?26675-Flat-Tops-amp-Fireballs&highlight=fireballs

Good story but the kid is still as ugly as Hell!! Maybe he'll grow into that head sometime! No offence intended TB!!

[Matty_ola]

What does this have to do with making it a law that someone can't use a .223?

Before introducing any sort of restrictive legislation, we should always determine if there actually is a problem.

Is there a problem with hunters using a .223 and with good shot placement the bullet is bouncing off the deer and wounding it? How many times does this happen? How does this number compare to guys wounding animals with their 30-06 because of poor shooting?

What is the real problem?

I would imagine the numbers are probably the same but why not take away the chance of twice the number of game being wounded. Isn't the whole point of hunting to kill an animal as quickly and cleanly as possible? So let's take away that percentage of animals being wounded by small caliber weapons.

[Caveman]

It is the responsibility of all hunters to limit the suffering of our quarry. This being said all should be practised in the art of shooting before going out in the field. Regardless of the caliber, I'd rather have a skilled shooter holding a .223 before I want to see a novice with a magnum. The same can be said in reverse. It comes down to taking responsibility for your skill and not compensate with "Bigger". The size of the bullet is not the problem here. IMHO!

[Gateholio]

I would imagine the numbers are probably the same but why not take away the chance of twice the number of game being wounded. Isn't the whole point of hunting to kill an animal as quickly and cleanly as possible? So let's take away that percentage of animals being wounded by small caliber weapons.

You "imagine" that people are wounding and losing as much game with .223's as 30-06s? Forget it, no way. Small caliber rifles make up a tiny fraction of the weapons used by big game hunters in BC. Far more are wounded by guys using larger cartridges that simply can't shot very well, or take shots they are not capable of. The issue will always be shot placement, it trumps everything else.

Cartridge selection isn't a problem, we dont' need more restrictive laws for no reasons.

[Jetboat]

I agree with Gatehouse that we don't need more restrictions. That said, I wish all hunters were responsible enough to use calibers and bullets that work within the limitations they are designed for. A .223 loaded with a heavy for caliber TSX is perfectly adequate for deer size game when the hunter carefully picks his shot. It is not designed for 300 yard pokes at a fast departing mature muley buck in adverse weather conditions at dusk. It doesn't matter what you shoot, if you can't hold off taking marginal, low percentage shots, then perhaps you would be better off playing TiddlyWinks than being a slob hunter that gives us all a bad name.

[steel_ram]

Good story but the kid is still as ugly as Hell!! Maybe he'll grow into that head sometime! No offence intended TB!!

Ha Ha. I went all the way there to see the ugly kid.

I here their's a few .223 for big game threads elsewhere. It's kind of like a virus. 223's awesome for big game if you've got there 30rd mags duck taped together and have mastered the dive, roll and shoot.

[Barracuda]

more animals are lost from hunters shooting beyond thier ability rather then the chosen cartridges ability.
if your shooting is up to snuff and you choose the proper componants then it is not a problem.

To many guys make failed shots with such and such caliber so they convince themselves they need a bigger rifle instead of getting better at shooting and understanding the limitations of thier gear (bullet design ,placement, max distance, etc)

[finngun]

[QUOTE=Barracuda;1050091]more animals are lost from hunters shooting beyond thier ability rather then the chosen cartridges ability.
if your shooting is up to snuff and you choose the proper componants then it is not a problem.

To many guys make failed shots with such and such caliber so they convince themselves they need a bigger rifle instead of getting better at shooting and understanding the limitations of thier gear (bullet design ,placement, max distance, etc)
very true....we dont need more restrictions.. we need hunters to understand that gun they are shooting needs practice to perform correctly.. so not like some hunters,,they pick gun for hunting
without hardly any practice shooting at fall-summer..then they wander--why the miss-wounded moose or deer?

[Gateholio]

Far more effective would be a minimum marksmanship test prior to each hunting season, although that would never fly. :)

[KodiakHntr]

I have to admit, that is something I would LOVE to go watch......

[Gateholio]

I have to admit, that is something I would LOVE to go watch......

I agree, it would be entertaining.

My guess would be that the most failed chamberings would be 30-06, 300 Winchester Magnum, .270. ;)

[KodiakHntr]

I'm pretty sure you are correct. I'm guessing that folks using a 223 or 243 or the like would have a proportionately higher pass rate than the other chamberings.....

[Singleshotneeded]

I find the worst shots at the range are guys that have recently gone from calibres like .270/30.06 to
something like a .338 Magnum, and aren't used to the extra recoil yet. I'm thinking the .223/.243/.270/30.06
etc., shooters would be the best marksmen.

[Gateholio]

Lots of 270, 30-06, 300 mag guys never even look at thier rifles 10 months of the year. :)

[IronNoggin]

... I had some customers in the NWT that favoured a 22 Hornet for Caribou and Muskox.

When living in the Arctic, I commonly took mature caribou with the 222. Also a good handful of wolves, a couple of sheep, two wolverine, and a moose with the same rifle. Capable? You betcha!

As most others have already noted, it's all about shot placement and understanding the limitations of the caliber in your hands.

Today, I have a good number of rifles in varying calibers to get the job done. And while it is legal to use that same 222 on deer, I don't, far preferring the venerable ol' 270 for that task. That said, I certainly do NOT want to see any further restrictions as to what we can / cannot use. Some day I may want to... simply for reminiscence sake... :twisted:

Cheers,
Nog

[scoutlt1]

Less regulations and restrictions!!! More hunters with ethics and responsibilty who practice lots and know where to hit an animal for a fast humane kill!!

[SimilkameenSlayer]

Less regulations and restrictions!!! More hunters with ethics and responsibilty who practice lots and know where to hit an animal for a fast humane kill!!

exactly what i think as well.

[Barracuda]

ever notice the less ability and ethics displayed the more rules and regulations seem to be brought up as a means to deal with it.

[Camp Cook]

Mind boggling isn't it...

[KevinB]

I would imagine the numbers are probably the same but why not take away the chance of twice the number of game being wounded. Isn't the whole point of hunting to kill an animal as quickly and cleanly as possible? So let's take away that percentage of animals being wounded by small caliber weapons.

Take away all the smaller calibers for big game hunting, those same hunters who had poor judgement with .223's will still have poor judgement with 30-06's and they'll still wound things. If someone makes a poor shot, it really doesn't matter what the caliber was. And until they figure out how to regulate for bonehead moves (to which I'll freely admit partaking in more often than I'd like), things like poor shots and wounding will unfortunately be part of hunting.

[Str8shooterbc]

In this Taylor Index - a Measure of Killing Power, an industry accepted authority on killing power of cartridges Killing Power the 100 yard Taylor Index for a 416 Rigby is 51.9. Conversely a .22 Long Rifle Rimfire is 1.2.

308Win- 150gr - 17.1

30-06- 180gr - 19.7

7mm Rem Mag- 154gr - 18.5

223Rem- 53gr - 4.9

I think that pretty much says why few hunters think a .22 anything is adequate to to hunt big game with, but it's legal in BC so I don't want to rain on anyone's parade.

http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/July02.htm

[Pioneerman]

Growing up my hunting rifle was a 22 Savage highpower, and I got it from my dad who hinted with it for years until he stepped up to the massive 300 savage. So yes the small bullet works and I have a 22-250 now that drives tacks, but I still like my new KING the best of all:mrgreen:

[Str8shooterbc]

I do find it curious that those who think a 9x19mm has inadequate stopping power but a 45ACP or 44 Mag is the only thing to use are often the same individuals that think a 223Rem is an adequate "Big Game Stopper". Why is that??

[Str8shooterbc]

Another point about the 223Rem (5.56x45mm NATO) is that after many years of questionable Military value there is a lot of development towards a 6.5mm cartridge to improve downrange trajectory and penetration. The .223 or 5.56mm has been plagued with problems right for its issue by American forces in Vietnam in the 60's. Killing Power has been at the forefront of the criticism of this calibre. Most Special Forces within NATO do not use the 5.56mm but favour the 6.5mm.

[Foxton Gundogs]

Could you please post a picture of the .17Bee? I would love to see this beast!

I'm guessing he means a .218 Bee, great little cartridge I have one it, Kills deer just fine thank you lol.


So tell me why when I look back on previous posts by all those who think a .22 would be more than enough gun, nobody has EVER recomended a rifle chambered in .223 .222 or ever 22-250 for a good all around deer rifle? Seems to me like all of many of you seem to think it can kill a deer dead in it's tracks so why don''t you use one? No recoil, Little noise and so on.

Here's a thread from a novice hunter looking for an all around ungulate cartridge
http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?75085-What-s-a-good-rifle-for-hunting-all-ungulates/page2

I'm confused why none of the people here ever mentioned the mighty .223 as a candidate? In fact I didn't see one person on all 7 pages say anything about a the .22 caliber family being a good choice for deer although on here many of you are more than happy with the performance as a hunting cartridge.

My answer to this would be(and I have recomended a 270Win. many times to new hunters) that you can kill deer just fine with a .22 centre fire (My X shot a 22-250 with devistating results, I have an old .218 Bee that has accounted for a pile of deer in its long life). But odds ate those new hunters will be hunting more than just deer and may not be ablt to afford a number of rifles for diffrent game so the 270(or like cartridges will do it all for them.

[Gateholio]

In this Taylor Index - a Measure of Killing Power, an industry accepted authority on killing power of cartridges Killing Power the 100 yard Taylor Index for a 416 Rigby is 51.9. Conversely a .22 Long Rifle Rimfire is 1.2.

308Win- 150gr - 17.1

30-06- 180gr - 19.7

7mm Rem Mag- 154gr - 18.5

223Rem- 53gr - 4.9

I think that pretty much says why few hunters think a .22 anything is adequate to to hunt big game with, but it's legal in BC so I don't want to rain on anyone's parade.

http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/July02.htm


The TKO formula is good for chuckle.

A 1 ounce 12 gauge foster slug at 1500fps has a TKO of about 65. I guess it's a better elephant stopper than the .416 RIgby, which only comes in at 51.9 :)

[Matty_ola]

I'm guessing he means a .217 Bee, great little cartridge I have one it, Kills deer just fine thank you lol.

If I'm not mistaken what you own would be a 218 Bee and the .17 Ackley Bee would be the wildcat necked down to accept the .17cal bullet. I hope you're using the correct loading data for your firearm....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.17_Ackley_Bee

[KevinB]

In this Taylor Index - a Measure of Killing Power, an industry accepted authority on killing power of cartridges Killing Power

No disrespect intended Str8, but I think that might be stretching things a little. Taylor came up with the theory to compare the relative ability of large bore solids to knock out an elephant, given a near miss to the brain. He specifically stated that the numbers generated did not represent "killing power". Lots of gun and hunting rags have since misinterpreted and overused it since then.

"I do not pretend that they [TKOs] represent "killing power"; but they do give an excellent basis from which any two rifles may be compared from the point of view of the actual knock-down blow, or punch, inflicted by the bullet on massive, heavy-boned animals such as elephant, rhino and buffalo". (From Taylor's book, African Rifles and Cartridges)

I found a funny quote on a website, that stated that a hand thrown baseball has a higher TKO value than a 470NE. I did the calculation myself, and sure enough, a major league fastball has twice the TKO as the 470. Almost as high as a 50 BMG.
----
Darn, I see Gate beat me to it!

[Gateholio]

When you shoot a deer or bear behind the shoulder, and the bullet enters, turns the lungs into mush and then exits, the animal dies. The animal never asks to know energy figures, formulas, bullet weight or diameter.

Shoot a deer or bear in the ribs with a .223 and a 45 or 53gr TSX bullet, and you will have lung soup, an exit wound and a dead animal.

[Str8shooterbc]

So can you produce anything more relevant? Also the Military seem to be seriously considering a much heavier calibe for it's new cartridge just around the corner. 6.5 is what most agree will be what they settle on.

As to the .223Rem this ballistic calculator suggests the absolute optimal game weight is 100 pounds at 100 yards. http://www.biggameinfo.com/index.aspx?page=/balcalc.ascx

Considering this same calculator considers the 270Win with 130gr bullet absolute optimum game weight is 609 pounds at the same 100 yards I would believe the .223Rem is only just on the line considering nothing at all goes wrong.

Perhaps others has scientific evidence that a .22Rem and like cartridges are not the best possible choice when it comes to cleanly dispatching deer sized game. Many Whitetale and most Mule Deer far exceed 100 pounds.

As I said considering that BC allows ALL Centre Fire Rifles legal to harvest almost all Big Game who am I to rain on anyone's parade. Perhaps a 9x19mm can be chambered in a rifle and then it's off to hunt Moose? I'll stick to my 7mm-08 or 270 thanks.

Ken Olyxhick

[Matty_ola]

When you shoot a deer or bear behind the shoulder, and the bullet enters, turns the lungs into mush and then exits, the animal dies. The animal never asks to know energy figures, formulas, bullet weight or diameter.

Shoot a deer or bear in the ribs with a .223 and a 45 or 53gr TSX bullet, and you will have lung soup, an exit wound and a dead animal.

Of course assuming the person hunting with said rifle is handloading and using the appropriate bullets, That said I'm pretty sure most who are hunting with the .223 now a days are using semi-auto firearms such as the XCR and ones like it. Chances are they have a giant pile of the cheapest .223 ammo they could get their hands on and are probably using it for anything from grouse to deer. That's just what I figure being as my buddy with the XCR is using Wolf Military Classic - 62gr HP for all his hunting needs.

[deer nut]

You cannot use rimfire cartridges I believe. .223 or 22-250 is legal because it is centrefire.

[Gateholio]

[QUOTE=Str8shooterbc;1051295]So can you produce anything more relevant?

What is more relevant than actual witnessed field experience



Also the Military seem to be seriously considering a much heavier calibe for it's new cartridge just around the corner. 6.5 is what most agree will be what they settle on.

I'm hardly a military arms expert but I've followed many conversations on the topic of the "inadequate 5.56" and it's replacement by a larger round. From the actual, experienced military personal that commented, it was :The 5.56 isn't going anywhere. The longer range engagements that have been encountered (past 400 yards) while in Afghanistan and Iraq have prompted looking into other cartridges for some troops. Don't expect to see the replacement of the 5.56 anytime soon. We arent' going back to the .308, either.

So to sum it up, past 400 yards there are better cartridges to engage in war than the .223. This is not groundbreaking news. Nor is anyone suggesting the .223 is a 400 yard deer cartridge.



As to the .223Rem this ballistic calculator suggests the absolute optimal game weight is 100 pounds at 100 yards. http://www.biggameinfo.com/index.aspx?page=/balcalc.ascx

Considering this same calculator considers the 270Win with 130gr bullet absolute optimum game weight is 609 pounds at the same 100 yards I would believe the .223Rem is only just on the line considering nothing at all goes wrong.

I guess that is relevant if you want to sit at home and punch numbers.


Perhaps others has scientific evidence that a .22Rem and like cartridges are not the best possible choice when it comes to cleanly dispatching deer sized game. Many Whitetale and most Mule Deer far exceed 100 pounds.

What is a more scientific way to determine how well a cartridge dispatches deer than to shoot deer with it?


As I said considering that BC allows ALL Centre Fire Rifles legal to harvest almost all Big Game who am I to rain on anyone's parade. Perhaps a 9x19mm can be chambered in a rifle and then it's off to hunt Moose? I'll stick to my 7mm-08 or 270 thanks.

Elmer Keith said the .270 was a coyote gun, and not good for deer.

[Str8shooterbc]

What is more relevant than actual witnessed field experience.

Physics & science.

[troutseeker]

What is more relevant than actual witnessed field experience.

Physics & science.

Sorry, but physics & science will NEVER be more relevant than actual field experience. Theories are nice and fancy, but actual doing of things proves the damned theories... The proof is in the pudding they say, not in the recipe. I believe in this case the truth is in the jelly-fied lungs of deer shot with the .223!

[Gateholio]

Of course assuming the person hunting with said rifle is handloading and using the appropriate bullets, That said I'm pretty sure most who are hunting with the .223 now a days are using semi-auto firearms such as the XCR and ones like it. Chances are they have a giant pile of the cheapest .223 ammo they could get their hands on and are probably using it for anything from grouse to deer. That's just what I figure being as my buddy with the XCR is using Wolf Military Classic - 62gr HP for all his hunting needs.

Or they could buy some factory ammo with appropriate bullets. Federal alone makes a .223 with 60gr Nosler Partitions, 64gr Power shock soft points and 53gr TSX bullets. On their little "suggested usage chart" they list DEER as the appropriate species to use this ammunition on.

If the Wolf military ammo he is using has non expanding bullets loaded in it, then it wouldn't be legal for hunting in BC.

[Str8shooterbc]

Sorry, but physics & science will NEVER be more relevant than actual field experience. Theories are nice and fancy, but actual doing of things proves the damned theories... The proof is in the pudding they say, not in the recipe. I believe in this case the truth is in the jelly-fied lungs of deer shot with the .223!

"What is more relevant than actual witnessed field experience."

"What is a more scientific way to determine how well a cartridge dispatches deer than to shoot deer with it?"

As well as documented factual evidence by recognized authorities in the field of Ballistics.

Are you one? If so can you please provide your documentation?

[Gateholio]

"What is more relevant than actual witnessed field experience."

"What is a more scientific way to determine how well a cartridge dispatches deer than to shoot deer with it?"
As well as documented factual evidence by recognized authorities in the field of Ballistics.

Are you one? If so can you please provide your documentation?


Find me ONE 'recognized authority" that says that "putting a 53gr TSX bullet through the ribs of a deer will not kill it promptly."

This is getting ridiculous. I'm not the only guy that has seen deer and bear drop to a .223, and you are sticking to your guns claiming it can't be done because of some numbers on a chart!

[Str8shooterbc]

Well this is getting ridiculous. I keep putting up links and you just want to argue, Bye.

[Surrey Boy]

What is more relevant than actual witnessed field experience.

Physics & science.

How can reality do anything but testify to the accuracy of scientific views? If science differs from experience, are we going to say that what we see isn't happening? No, we will correct our scientific theories.

[Gateholio]

Maybe if you put up links to actual studies on how effective the .223 is on deer sized game it would be interesting. Nothing you have linked to is anything more than hypothetical theory.

[steel_ram]

The better penetration of a heavier bullet is smart insurance against marginal hits. A hunter should use the more "appropriate" rifle for the game at hand, and be able to shoot it accurately. Shooting big game with smallbores is doable if the marksmen is up to it, but still just a stunt.

[Barracuda]

http://www.federalpremium.com/recommendation/rifle.aspx

federal suggest use of the tsx from a 223 lists deer and antelope . TSX is not your normal bullets and its like stepping up a caliber. I have no concerns useing mine on big game.

[Gateholio]

How can reality do anything but testify to the accuracy of scientific views? If science differs from experience, are we going to say that what we see isn't happening? No, we will correct our scientific theories.


Very well put Surrey Boy.

[KodiakHntr]

Stunt? How so?

To my mind if an appropriate bullet gets to the vitals, where is the stunt?

[Str8shooterbc]

Maybe if you put up links to actual studies on how effective the .223 is on deer sized game it would be interesting. Nothing you have linked to is anything more than hypothetical theory.


I am open to anything your documentation and evidence has to offer to solve my problems when hunting undulates. I hunt in good summer like weather as well as rain, wind and snow. The terrain varies from flat to open to steep and rugged and sometimes can be heavily brushed or treed. I cannot often tell what the wind is doing downrange because of the gully in between myself and my quarry, a quarry that is from 15 to 300 plus yards. Often I never get presented with a perfect broadside shot let alone a headshot. I can never be guaranteed that the undulate is going to be less than 100 pounds; in fact I just may get the chance of a lifetime for a six point elk, which I just happened to have luckily purchased a tag for, or a huge Lifetime Trophy Deer. I couls, as easily run into one of the many Grizzlies that the MOE have been planting throughout BC like that guy in Cherryville did this last fall.

If you can produce documentation and evidence you have compiled, of for that matter anyone else has, that can convince me to carry a 4 pound rifle, which is my dream, that can handle my “deer hunting needs” I will be all ears. I have just posted 2 links that show otherwise but I’m all ears if you can produce any other convincing information.

Until then I will continue to tell anyone who asks for information on a rifle for hunting undulates that a .22 calibre is not the best choice for almost all deer hunting situations.

[Gateholio]

At one point I may have considered it a "stunt" but now I just see it as different. It's like using a bow, a muzzloader, a handgun, an old black powder lever action, etc.

You are limiting yourself on opportunity compared to a .300 magnum, but that's part of the challenge.

[KodiakHntr]

I am open to anything your documentation and evidence has to offer to solve my problems when hunting undulates. I hunt in good summer like weather as well as rain, wind and snow. The terrain varies from flat to open to steep and rugged and sometimes can be heavily brushed or treed. I cannot often tell what the wind is doing downrange because of the gully in between myself and my quarry, a quarry that is from 15 to 300 plus yards. Often I never get presented with a perfect broadside shot let alone a headshot. I can never be guaranteed that the undulate is going to be less than 100 pounds; in fact I just may get the chance of a lifetime for a six point elk, which I just happened to have luckily purchased a tag for, or a huge Lifetime Trophy Deer. I couls, as easily run into one of the many Grizzlies that the MOE have been planting throughout BC like that guy in Cherryville did this last fall.

If you can produce documentation and evidence you have compiled, of for that matter anyone else has, that can convince me to carry a 4 pound rifle, which is my dream, that can handle my “deer hunting needs” I will be all ears. I have just posted 2 links that show otherwise but I’m all ears if you can produce any other convincing information.

Until then I will continue to tell anyone who asks for information on a rifle for hunting undulates that a .22 calibre is not the best choice for almost all deer hunting situations.

Oddly enough, I grew up in Cherryville. And now I live in the Great White North, where we actually have a fair jag of grizzlies. And you know what, I have absolutely no issues whatsoever of hunting with a 223 and tsx's for deer. For that matter, I've hunted black bears with it as well, and had zero issues pounding tsx's from ANY angle into the goodies on black bears from 15 yards through 250+ yards.

Bullets, not headstamps.....

[Barracuda]

if you go on 24 hr you will see about a dozen or so pages dedicated to 22 centerfire big game kills

[Str8shooterbc]

Well this is a complete waste of time.

[jessbennett]

I am open to anything your documentation and evidence has to offer to solve my problems when hunting undulates. I hunt in good summer like weather as well as rain, wind and snow. The terrain varies from flat to open to steep and rugged and sometimes can be heavily brushed or treed. I cannot often tell what the wind is doing downrange because of the gully in between myself and my quarry, a quarry that is from 15 to 300 plus yards. Often I never get presented with a perfect broadside shot let alone a headshot. I can never be guaranteed that the undulate is going to be less than 100 pounds; in fact I just may get the chance of a lifetime for a six point elk, which I just happened to have luckily purchased a tag for, or a huge Lifetime Trophy Deer. I couls, as easily run into one of the many Grizzlies that the MOE have been planting throughout BC like that guy in Cherryville did this last fall.

If you can produce documentation and evidence you have compiled, of for that matter anyone else has, that can convince me to carry a 4 pound rifle, which is my dream, that can handle my “deer hunting needs” I will be all ears. I have just posted 2 links that show otherwise but I’m all ears if you can produce any other convincing information.

Until then I will continue to tell anyone who asks for information on a rifle for hunting undulates that a .22 calibre is not the best choice for almost all deer hunting situations.
a little off topic here, but what the hell is an undulate????

[Gateholio]

I am open to anything your documentation and evidence has to offer to solve my problems when hunting undulates. I hunt in good summer like weather as well as rain, wind and snow. The terrain varies from flat to open to steep and rugged and sometimes can be heavily brushed or treed. I cannot often tell what the wind is doing downrange because of the gully in between myself and my quarry, a quarry that is from 15 to 300 plus yards. Often I never get presented with a perfect broadside shot let alone a headshot. I can never be guaranteed that the undulate is going to be less than 100 pounds; in fact I just may get the chance of a lifetime for a six point elk, which I just happened to have luckily purchased a tag for, or a huge Lifetime Trophy Deer. I couls, as easily run into one of the many Grizzlies that the MOE have been planting throughout BC like that guy in Cherryville did this last fall.


If you are looking for an all around rifle for deer, elk and grizzly from 15-300 yards, the .223 is not it. Nor did anyone say it was. What was said is that the .223 with good bullets is an effective killer of deer within it's parameters. Like any other cartridge form the 22lr to the .700 Nitro Express, the .223 has parameters where it works best. 300 yards on an elk is not it. Stopping charging grizzlies is not it, either.


If you can produce documentation and evidence you have compiled, of for that matter anyone else has, that can convince me to carry a 4 pound rifle, which is my dream, that can handle my “deer hunting needs” I will be all ears. I have just posted 2 links that show otherwise but I’m all ears if you can produce any other convincing information.


Let's be accurate about the links you posted. One was to the discredited TKO formula, (honestly, who would trust a formula that shows a baseball or a shotgun is more powerful than a .416 Rigby?) and the other was to a ballistic program that calculated optimal game weight without qualifying how they determined the optimum weight. Probably arbitrarily punching in numbers instead of actual killing.

There is plenty of evidence that demonstrates that the .223 will effectively kill deer within it's parameters. The documentation is the dead deer in the freezers and the bear rug I have upstairs that has 2 holes in it from an entrance and exit of a .223 bullet the bear staggered and dropped, BTW. Try Google if you want to read about the hundreds of people that have killed deer with the .223. DO a search on HBC for Flattops and Fireballs to see a fun thread abotu when tod bartell shot a doe with his .221 Fireball and how it keeled over in a couple of steps.



Until then I will continue to tell anyone who asks for information on a rifle for hunting undulates that a .22 calibre is not the best choice for almost all deer hunting situations.

I'll continue to tell people the truth- that used properly, the .223 is an efficient killer of deer.

While we are on the topic of documentation and evidence, you haven't produced any real evidence, other than numbers. Let's see your evidence from experts that say that the .223 won't kill creatures over 100 lbs. A million dead humans would probably disagree.

[Str8shooterbc]

A million dead humans would probably disagree.

Is this your idea of appropriate?

[KodiakHntr]

Well this is a complete waste of time.

Why is that? Because some of us have been there and done that and proven it effective? Or because we don't sit on the couch and make decisions based on the information other guys came up with while THEY sat on their couches?

[Gateholio]

baracuda, please post a link. It seems links are the only accepted evidence allowed here. ;)

[Matty_ola]

At one point I may have considered it a "stunt" but now I just see it as different. It's like using a bow, a muzzloader, a handgun, an old black powder lever action, etc.

You are limiting yourself on opportunity compared to a .300 magnum, but that's part of the challenge.

OKay I see what you're saying but at what point do we draw the line between challenging our hunting ability and ethical quick clean kills. I guess I'm saying we have come so far with technology and firearms why do we need to take the chance anymore? You can buy a 308 for the same money as a 223 and you know for sure it's gonna carry the energy needed to knock down any sized game you come across.

It goes the same for blackpowder and bow hunting as well, I have nothing against any of them (I formally bow hunted) but it's 2012 for god sakes do we need to shoot animals with sticks and round balls so they can bleed out for 5-10 minutes before they die? I guess my point is why throw a bullet with 1300lb of energy when you can use 2600lb and just in case you're off that little bit or maybe you squeezed that trigger wrong at the last second, the extra energy from that larger round should at least be able to cripple your target enough for a follow up shot to finish the job.

I'm using the 308 ballistics as an example not a statement.

[Gateholio]

Is this your idea of appropriate?

Like it or not, many men have been killed with single rounds of .223 FMJ. You can't argue that a FMJ wil kill a 200 lb man, but a TSX bullet won't kill a deer.

[KodiakHntr]

Energy doesn't kill animals. Holes in important places kill animals.

And I bowhunt as well, and I've yet to see a deer or bear or elk require 5-10 minutes to bleed out if it's been stuck properly with an arrow wearing a sharp broadhead.

That said, the most impressive, fastest kills I've seen over the years have been with "marginal" calibers as decreed by the armchair crowd. 223, 243, 6mm, etc....

[Barracuda]

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/3632234/2

its also a common culling caliber for deer and is used in macropod harvesting and even feral animal control (goats pigs etc)

[KodiakHntr]

Like it or not, many men have been killed with single rounds of .223 FMJ. You can't argue that a FMJ wil kill a 200 lb man, but a TSX bullet won't kill a deer.


Don't find many deer wrapped in layers of kevlar and ceramic or steel plate for that matter either.....

[Str8shooterbc]

Well I think a statement like " Let's see your evidence from experts that say that the .223 won't kill creatures over 100 lbs. A million dead humans would probably disagree" is childish and plays right into the hands of the antis that are trying to shut out sport down. This thread should be closed and erased.

[KodiakHntr]

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/3632234/2

its also a common culling caliber for deer and is used in macropod harvesting and even feral animal control (goats pigs etc)

Can't remember if that thread had any pics of the elk that Pat has killed using his 220 swift or not...(Scenar Shooter has killed more B&C class elk with a 22CF than most guys have shot deer with anything....)

[Matty_ola]

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/3632234/2

its also a common culling caliber for deer and is used in macropod harvesting and even feral animal control (goats pigs etc)

I watched that video posted a while back with that guy shooting feral pigs from a chopper, he did mention however it takes 2-4 shots to kill a pig with a 223 and the reason they use it is because of low recoil, and large magazine capacity.

[Matty_ola]

Like it or not, many men have been killed with single rounds of .223 FMJ. You can't argue that a FMJ wil kill a 200 lb man, but a TSX bullet won't kill a deer.

If all hunters had the skills of a rifleman we wouldn't have as many wounded game and this thread wouldn't exist

[Gateholio]

OKay I see what you're saying but at what point do we draw the line between challenging our hunting ability and ethical quick clean kills. I guess I'm saying we have come so far with technology and firearms why do we need to take the chance anymore? You can buy a 308 for the same money as a 223 and you know for sure it's gonna carry the energy needed to knock down any sized game you come across.

It goes the same for blackpowder and bow hunting as well, I have nothing against any of them (I formally bow hunted) but it's 2012 for god sakes do we need to shoot animals with sticks and round balls so they can bleed out for 5-10 minutes before they die? I guess my point is why throw a bullet with 1300lb of energy when you can use 2600lb and just in case you're off that little bit or maybe you squeezed that trigger wrong at the last second, the extra energy from that larger round should at least be able to cripple your target enough for a follow up shot to finish the job.

I'm using the 308 ballistics as an example not a statement.

I helped track a deer last year, with a poor hit from a .300 magnum. It went a real long way. The "extra energy" didn't cripple it at all, as it ran away. A well placed shot from a .223 would have killed that deer in it's tracks.

If you want to argue we need bigger guns to make up for poor shot placement, you are barking up the wrong tree.

[Gateholio]

Well I think a statement like " Let's see your evidence from experts that say that the .223 won't kill creatures over 100 lbs. A million dead humans would probably disagree" is childish and plays right into the hands of the antis that are trying to shut out sport down. This thread should be closed and erased.



Don't worry, the antis have lots better propaganda than that.

[Matty_ola]

I helped track a deer last year, with a poor hit from a .300 magnum. It went a real long way. The "extra energy" didn't cripple it at all, as it ran away. A well placed shot from a .223 would have killed that deer in it's tracks.

If you want to argue we need bigger guns to make up for poor shot placement, you are barking up the wrong tree.

Okay now put a .223 in the hands of that hunter who used the .300 Magnum, Do you think you would have found that deer?

[Foxton Gundogs]

If I'm not mistaken what you own would be a 218 Bee and the .17 Ackley Bee would be the wildcat necked down to accept the .17cal bullet. I hope you're using the correct loading data for your firearm....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.17_Ackley_Bee

U R 100% correct and I am 100% brain dead (at least to night) sorry, but it was an honest mistake seeing how I have only owned my 218 for about 25years lol

[Gateholio]

If all hunters had the skills of a rifleman we wouldn't have as many wounded game and this thread wouldn't exist


Most game in BC is wounded with "traditional" cartridges liek the 30-06. Hmm, I think I said that already.

[Matty_ola]

U R 100% correct and I am 100% brain dead (at least to night) sorry, but it was an honest mistake seeing how I have only owned my 218 for about 25years lol

LOL No problem, gave me a bit of a chuckle:)

[KodiakHntr]

I watched that video posted a while back with that guy shooting feral pigs from a chopper, he did mention however it takes 2-4 shots to kill a pig with a 223 and the reason they use it is because of low recoil, and large magazine capacity.

I dunno, if I'm shooting stuff from a helicopter moving at 100kph I"m pretty sure I'd want low recoil as well....Not to mention multiple rounds in a magazine as I'm pretty sure that my placement wouldn't be all that shit hot.....

[Matty_ola]

I dunno, if I'm shooting stuff from a helicopter moving at 100kph I"m pretty sure I'd want low recoil as well....Not to mention multiple rounds in a magazine as I'm pretty sure that my placement wouldn't be all that shit hot.....

I bet Jeff could do it in one shot with his rangefinder eyes closed.

[Gateholio]

Okay now put a .223 in the hands of that hunter who used the .300 Magnum, Do you think you would have found that deer?

Sure, it would have bled out and died, too. Probably woudl have taken the same amount of time.

[Gateholio]

Lots of one shot kills on hogs from the .223 in a chopper video I saw. They said they liked the AR better than anything else, and way better than a shotgun with buckshot.

[jessbennett]

OKay I see what you're saying but at what point do we draw the line between challenging our hunting ability and ethical quick clean kills. I guess I'm saying we have come so far with technology and firearms why do we need to take the chance anymore? You can buy a 308 for the same money as a 223 and you know for sure it's gonna carry the energy needed to knock down any sized game you come across.

It goes the same for blackpowder and bow hunting as well, I have nothing against any of them (I formally bow hunted) but it's 2012 for god sakes do we need to shoot animals with sticks and round balls so they can bleed out for 5-10 minutes before they die? I guess my point is why throw a bullet with 1300lb of energy when you can use 2600lb and just in case you're off that little bit or maybe you squeezed that trigger wrong at the last second, the extra energy from that larger round should at least be able to cripple your target enough for a follow up shot to finish the job.

I'm using the 308 ballistics as an example not a statement.

you make it sound like a bow or muzzleloader is an unethical method of harvesting game? sounds like you didnt have a whole lot of success with a bow if your questioning the ethics of using one. because if you did have success with one you would know that a bow is just as an effective and efficient killer as a rifle if you KNOW YOUR GEAR.
you're right it is 2012 and you should see the new bow technology thats out there. its nothing short of amazing. with ANY weapon used in hunting today, technology has come long way. guns nowdays are WAY more efficient now than they were 100 yrs ago. same with bows.
this WHOLE argument this WHOLE thread comes down to know your limitations, know your gears limitations, practice with it, and SHOT PLACEMENT.
the reason some choose to use a bow, or a muzzleloader is the challenge. plain and simple. i guess since its 2012 we should quit challenging ourselves then..........
and yes some of us DO HAVE to hunt with sticks and strings........


your right. you can buy a 308 for the same price as a 223. but the bullet diameter and the cartridge itself doesnt make it the better killer, its the person pulling the trigger. a bigger bullet doesnt make it the ""sure thing". personally id prefer a 22 calibre bullet to the boiler room, than the 30 cal to the guts or ass........

[Matty_ola]

Sure, it would have bled out and died, too. Probably woudl have taken the same amount of time.

You believe the wound channel would have had the same outcome as the magnum? C'mon you're gonna have to do better than that. Pretty sure that magnum is gonna leave a little bigger mark.

[KodiakHntr]

I bet Jeff could do it in one shot with his rangefinder eyes closed.

Good point....

Man, I miss that guy......The comedic relief alone was worth trying to decifer what he was saying.

[Gateholio]

You believe the wound channel would have had the same outcome as the magnum? C'mon you're gonna have to do better than that. Pretty sure that magnum is gonna leave a little bigger mark.

I'm pretty sure a well placed .223 shot would have left a bigger mark.

Blowing off a chunk out of a deer so the deer runs off and bleeds out can be done with a .223, 30-30, 300, 375 whatever. Animal is still going to bleed out and die. What do you think happens when an animal starts bleeding and the blood won't stop? they can't go to the ER.

[Matty_ola]

you make it sound like a bow or muzzleloader is an unethical method of harvesting game? sounds like you didnt have a whole lot of success with a bow if your questioning the ethics of using one. because if you did have success with one you would know that a bow is just as an effective and efficient killer as a rifle if you KNOW YOUR GEAR.
you're right it is 2012 and you should see the new bow technology thats out there. its nothing short of amazing. with ANY weapon used in hunting today, technology has come long way. guns nowdays are WAY more efficient now than they were 100 yrs ago. same with bows.
this WHOLE argument this WHOLE thread comes down to know your limitations, know your gears limitations, practice with it, and SHOT PLACEMENT.
the reason some choose to use a bow, or a muzzleloader is the challenge. plain and simple. i guess since its 2012 we should quit challenging ourselves then..........
and yes some of us DO HAVE to hunt with sticks and strings........


your right. you can buy a 308 for the same price as a 223. but the bullet diameter and the cartridge itself doesnt make it the better killer, its the person pulling the trigger. a bigger bullet doesnt make it the ""sure thing". personally id prefer a 22 calibre bullet to the boiler room, than the 30 cal to the guts or ass........

That's fine and like I said I have nothing against it, It's so easy for us to say we need the challenge when were not the one's on the end of the pointy stick. Everyone has their idea of ethical hunting and I'm not here to put it down or discriminate against it. You can hunt with a knife and a rope if you like I'm just saying the faster I can end the life of the animal I'm harvesting the better I feel about it. sorry if I offended you it wasn't my intent.

[Matty_ola]

I'm pretty sure a well placed .223 shot would have left a bigger mark.

Blowing off a chunk out of a deer so the deer runs off and bleeds out can be done with a .223, 30-30, 300, 375 whatever. Animal is still going to bleed out and die. What do you think happens when an animal starts bleeding and the blood won't stop? they can't go to the ER.

Were not talking about a "well placed .223 shot" were talking about the shot your friend the hunter took. So if he had a .223 instead of the 300 would the outcome have been the same?

[Gateholio]

Were not talking about a "well placed .223 shot" were talking about the shot your friend the hunter took. So if he had a .223 instead of the 300 would the outcome have been the same?


The animal would have bled to death, regardless of what was on the headstamp of the cartridge. I think i said that already.

Although I suppose it's quite possible that the lighter .223 bullet might have been deflected more and ended up in the vitals of the deer, killing it on the spot, while the greater energy and TKO factor of the .300 kept the heavier bullet in a straigth line, resulting in the wounding that actually occurred.

Or do you have some sort of link to a chart that will demonstrate a poor hit with a magnum is better than a poor hit with a .223?

[Matty_ola]

The animal would have bled to death, regardless of what was on the headstamp of the cartridge. I think i said that already.

Although I suppose it's quite possible that the lighter .223 bullet might have been deflected more and ended up in the vitals of the deer, killing it on the spot, while the greater energy and TKO factor of the .300 kept the heavier bullet in a straigth line, resulting in the wounding that actually occurred.

Or do you have some sort of link to a chart that will demonstrate a poor hit with a magnum is better than a poor hit with a .223?

Why can't you just come to terms with the fact that had your friend been using a .223 the likelyhood of you guys finding the wounded animal would have been next to nill. Therefor because he was using a caliber that is a little more forgiving with shot placement he was able to bring home the animal he shot instead of having it run into the next MU and die under a tree for the wolves to eat.

You've avoided a strait answer to my question since I asked it becasue you know the outcome will not benifit your arguement.

[Gateholio]

Why can't you just come to terms with the fact that had your friend been using a .223 the likelyhood of you guys finding the wounded animal would have been next to nill. Therefor because he was using a caliber that is a little more forgiving with shot placement he was able to bring home the animal he shot instead of having it run into the next MU and die under a tree for the wolves to eat.

You've avoided a strait answer to my question since I asked it becasue you know the outcome will not benifit your arguement.



I've given you a straight answer over and over. The deer would have bled to death.

I can't tell you that it would have run less or more. There is no way to tell, and there is no chart to consult on how long deer run when shot in the balls with different cartridges.

I can tell you that arguing to use a bigger gun to compensate for poor shot placement makes your arguments look very foolish.

Next you will tell me that if he has been using a .338 the deer would have run half as far as he did.

[Surrey Boy]

I've been thinking about buying a Swiss Arms Black Special in .223 to celebrate the demise of the LGR. This thread makes me want one all the more so I can try it out on a whitetail.

[scoutlt1]

I've read most if not all of the threads on this post. NO MORE RESTRICTIONS!!!!!
Shoot a mammal in the right place (heart/lungs) and it will die! Don't "restrict" calibers or guns, like so many other things in this world that we live in....driving for example,...that only tries to compensate for poor ability and not enough practice. It doesn't work!!!!!
Us hunters need to practice, practice, practice and get "confident" with the guns that we shoot! We owe it to the animals that we shoot to kill them quickly and humanely!
If you are skilled and have practiced enough to shoot a deer with a .223, or hell a .22 LR, then there is absolutely no reason why you shouldn't be "allowed" to do it!
I am getting so sick of the "regulate us to death" mentality these days!!!
Don't tell me that I can't shoot an animal with an "inadequate" caliber just because there are people out there that haven't become proficient enough with it to kill that animal quickly and humanely....
sorry....bit of a rant but couldn't help it...

[Gateholio]

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/3632234/2

its also a common culling caliber for deer and is used in macropod harvesting and even feral animal control (goats pigs etc)


That thread is pretty good documentation and evidence that the .22 centerfires are capable of killing deer!

No ballistic computations needed, just holes in animals!:-D

[Camp Cook]

There should be hunting restrictions but it should be for morons that never shoot/sight in their firearms no matter what caliber/cartridge they are shooting.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

This thread makes me laugh there are definately a few guys on here that need to get out from behind the computer. My kid starting at 10 years old killed 2muledeer bucks inside 50 yards, one big black bear at 120 yards, one medium bear at 80 yards, one huge tom cougar at 15 yards, with 222rem.
Now here is a shocker he was using soft point federals. All one shot kills. Oh yeh, my wife kiled a buck 200 yards as well, again one shot one kill.
Is it really possible???This cannot be, you have to use premium ammo or it won't work.
Shot placement is key!!!
I could only imagine that premium ammo would be that much more effective.

[BiG Boar]

This is like arguing who is the biggest midget.....

Even a 22 rim fire will kill an elephant with proper shot placement. Pure Lead bullet too.



Matty_ola this is what I gather you are trying to say. All hunting weapons for big game should be as big and fast a bullets as possible (that the shooter can handle). This is to ensure a faster cleaner kill.

My personal thoughts are that I have seen more seasoned hunters with bad flinches, miss or wound a lot of animals because its too much gun for them. Should we have a maximum caliber as well then?

[KodiakHntr]

My personal thoughts are that I have seen more seasoned hunters with bad flinches, miss or wound a lot of animals because its too much gun for them. Should we have a maximum caliber as well then?


Hehehehehehe....Wonder if that would have a positive impact or a negative impact on shot placement?

[Camp Cook]

Going to a single shot will have a positve impact more than anything else because most people could only get the one shot off so would have to make it count or go home empty...

[835]

Wow.

Nobody even mentioned he called his buddy a douche bag. I dont think he is much a friend. And Yes Wolf Ammo is FMJ therfore Illegal to hunt with. So his buddy is maybe a Douche. But i think his buddy probably uses some sort of legal ammo in his XCR and there for is not a douche, but a guy using a legal rifle to hunt legal game. I think Matty ola is scared of the black rifle.


Matty, I totally get whay you are trying to say. I actually kinda aggree with you in some aspects. But You sure as hell went about wording it the wrong way.
Legal is legal, Dead is dead and ethics is all in the eyes of the beholder. You can not judge people unless you see them do something. To say someone cant hunt with a XCR .223 is wrong.

Maybe he should have got an XCR-M, would you then not calle him a Douche?

[Camp Cook]

Have him get a conversion kit in 6.8SPC for his XCR-L and load it with 270 cal 95gr TTSX @ 2825fps and he is good for deer out to 300 yards.

and FYI I hunt deer with my XCR-L in 6.8SPC... :)

[Moose Guide]

My sons first deer fell to a .22-250 using 60 gr. nos. part., one clean shot and a dead deer at the end of a 30 yd run!!!