Help!...Rams shot and left near Lytton...

[MtnBoy]

Well I came across an awful sight while passing through Lytton on Monday AM. :evil::(

Two young rams have been killed and left right beside the cemetery on Botanie Mtn Road. The CO's have been notified, attended the scene, and are now asking our help for information on this senseless act.

So my hope is that our HBC hunting community can come together to provide any details on this incident...

These were shot and killed sometime over the weekend Dec 10th or 11th from the little road leading to the cemetery.

If you saw anyone or a vehicle near the area please call the RAPP hotline. Any little details will help! You can remain anonymous if you like.

Lets catch the person(s) responsible!


http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy156/Riverjet/Ram1a.jpg

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy156/Riverjet/Ram2a.jpg

[frenchbar]

I'll keep my ears open...fin discusting act !!!!

[coach]

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?75891-Two-rams-shot-and-left.

[pnbrock]

who lives in the houses in the pic?

[Rut Buck]

Well hate to say it but you know whos to blame and even if they were caught nothing would happen. Its another sad act.

[BCHunterTV]

very sad to see....

[The Dude]

A**holes. Not even poaching for meat, it's just bloodlust. And a .17 HMR? How many shots did it take to put them down?
Just beneath contempt.

[Everett]

Well hate to say it but you know whos to blame and even if they were caught nothing would happen. Its another sad act.

We need a season on those people who would this sort of evil act might keep them honest.

[Jelvis]

I'm wandering what happened, how did they die?

[Darksith]

i wonder if they were wounded, escaped since the ahole wasnt interested in working for it, then both died of their wounds a few hours later...sounds like someone either meat hunting with the wrong weapon and no ethics/morals, or someone just being a f tard. Either way tragic.

[Rut Buck]

They did the same thing to the elk herd in there years back and they do it to everything else all over the province for some disgusting reason they do it cuz they know they wont get caught and if they somehow did absoulutly nothing would happen.

[40incher]

Yeah well, whatever...... the world's original conservationists should be proud.

Their brothers have knocked the moose population in the Nass from 1,700 to 500 by shooting everything with moose hair, regardless of years of pleas for some restraint. The bureaucrat's solution, take away the licensed hunter's very small bull-only LEH opportunity. And, to top it off, they (MFLNRO staff) claim they can't explain the drastic population decline because the last time they said too many cows were being shot they caught hell.

It's too bad the boys can't practice what they preach.

[weatherbyjunkie]

What a damn shame! and our legal system is such a joke nothing would happen to the assholes that did that even if the overworked,underfunded CO's didmanage to catch those responsible

[Orangethunder]

That sucks man, hard to believe someone would do that.

[Jelvis]

It might have had something to do with the grave yard being under them maybe? Something spooky going on, maybe a ritual killing by some lunatic in the area, probably lives close by. Could have a strong tie to the grave yard for some reason in their mixed up world, prolly got drunk on moon shine and a lil high on locoweed.
Full moon around this time? Any disputes about the sheep recently? Many questions that are going to be answered sooner than later. Some one was looking for ATTENTION! Made to look like they wanted it to look.
Jel (CSI) Spence's Bridge .. What angle was the shots fired, any casings found? Let's go with this.
Bring in the News Channels get on your phones dial now .. text message .. face book .. E mail .. G-mail .. twitter .. blog

[Muleycatcher]

This boils my blood! That's all I can say, but I'll just keep what I really want to say to myself.

[Foxtail]

It might have had something to do with the grave yard being under them maybe? Something spooky going on, maybe a ritual killing by some lunatic in the area, probably lives close by. Could have a strong tie to the grave yard for some reason in their mixed up world, prolly got drunk on moon shine and a lil high on locoweed.
Full moon around this time? Any disputes about the sheep recently? Many questions that are going to be answered sooner than later. Some one was looking for ATTENTION! Made to look like they wanted it to look.
Jel (CSI) Spence's Bridge .. What angle was the shots fired, any casings found? Let's go with this.
Bring in the News Channels get on your phones dial now .. text message .. face book .. E mail .. G-mail .. twitter .. blog

Actually I think there was a total eclipse of the moon Saturday morning at 6am. You might be on to something Jelvis

[Westslope]

A lot of the inbreeders on here are quick to jump to conclusions about the ethnicity of the hunters. I can draw no conclusions on who did it, just from my experience I have found that typical traditional kills are fully utilized. Think about it for a second and ask yourself if you would leave something laying on the ground after you killed it if you absolutely 100% feel you have the right to kill it?
Someone mentioned the elk kill on here, yes that was a tragedy but, it wasn't a local group who did it and from what I hear the majority of the animals were picked up and used.
Furthermore a 17hmr is more of a play-play gun and I would think that the income of the typical FN in the area doesn't allow much room for such thrill purchases. Wasn't someone going around poaching deer like crazy in the Lilloet area? Where are those guys now? I hunt sheep there, and I hate to see this. I also hate to see mudslinging without proof, lots of people read this forum. Remarks regarding race and ethnicity are great ways to prove all of us are redneck idiots who have nothing better to do than point fingers and complain about others freedoms. Accept it or move to the united states, you have choices!

[snareman1234]

Makes me sick

[The Dude]

Well then........you have to ask yourself if someone killed them knowing the knee-jerk reaction would be to blame the local band, now, wouldn't you?
Redneck agenda?

[Deeboe]

That pisses me off.... Reminds me of a time my hunting partner and i found a poached 6 X 7 bull elk in the slocan valley one morning. turns out it was killed with a .22. Every time of hear of this my blood boils. Hopefully what goes around, comes around in this case....

[bigslim]

Sickening, a senseless waste by gutless cowards. F#*!WADS like those responsible need to be prosecuted to the limit, another black eye for hunters (Who always seem to be some how lumped in with any F#*!WADS with a gun)

[edgar11]

"Well hate to say it but you know whos to blame and even if they were caught nothing would happen. Its another sad act."


"They did the same thing to the elk herd in there years back and they do it to everything else all over the province for some disgusting reason they do it cuz they know they wont get caught and if they somehow did absoulutly nothing would happen. "




Well it appears "rut buck "has solved this case! What a genious. We should give him a brownie badge, and with very little information to go on too.

[Jack Russell]

Its the nature of the beast. People on here are merely venting and expressing an opinion. Everyone though is asking "why?", and are rightfully angered.

Hopefully the culprits are found and convicted. As mentioned earlier, it will come by way of "loose lips, sink ships". I would be surprised if it was locals, and very disappointed in if it is.

[Jelvis]

A person that would do something like that must have prior issues and must be known to some. By themselves most likely when he or she did that otherwise someone would talk. How close is that grave yard to a residents?
I can't see why someone from a long ways a way, say the Lower mainland would shoot and run, don't make sense.
I thought maybe some one don't like sheep so why? Maybe thought of them as an import from California and liked beef steaks and mule deer dint want sheep?
Or someone dint want sheep walking on their Uncle's grave etc who knows cuz it seems like a criminal act to us who appreciate all wildlife which are prey animals and obey the regulations and LEH results.
I think this person or persons will be caught by someone down the road as we look and listen and hope they do soon as possible.
Jp.

[500grhollowpoint]

You might be on something Jelvis

Fixed it for you.

[frenchbar]

Jelly i dont thinks far off on his last post....for the most part that is ..

[sheepsheen]

I am utterly disgusted and angry because there is little if anything anyone can do to remedy this. There is a group of people out there that enjoy this waste of life and I hope they reap the rewards and suffer the consequences for this. Seems like this area is a hotspot for these shoot and leave poachers. Hope the locals can rout them out.

[MtnBoy]

If someone may know anything that will help stop these senseless acts please call the RAPP hotline. YOU CAN GIVE INFORMATION AND REMAIN ANONYMOUS!!! No questions asked....a name, a vehicle...whatever.
1-877-952-7277

[GOLDEN TOP SNIPER]

Id like to be the CO that Bust em . .Id say . YOU BOYS IN A HEAP O TRUBLE . ..

[The Dude]

Anything ever come of this?
I know they caught the a--holes.

Was there ever a smoke lodge, a healing circle, a horse whipping, or anything?

Anything at all?

[Whonnock Boy]

Yeah, for sure. I heard they had to ask for forgiveness from the Creator and offer a sacrificial full curl in the process.

[Sofa King]

Anything ever come of this?
I know they caught the a--holes.

Was there ever a smoke lodge, a healing circle, a horse whipping, or anything?

Anything at all?

so they did turn out to be indians?
what a shocker.
shame on those who were quick to scorn those who said it would be.
odds were extremely high given the location.

and why would there be punishment for this?
when are they ever punished for anything?

[MtnBoy]

Due to some hard work by the CO's, they did find out who did this. The person(s) responsible will face restorative justice from within their community.

[bruin]

I, among many others, would love to know what "restorative justice" they end up getting if anyone's got the inside scoop.

[Spy]

So lets say for arguements sake I get caught poaching a sheep for food for my family as we are starving !
Can I use this case to get off on the grounds,that this case sets a president !I mean whats good for some Canadians should be good for all ! No !

[yamadirt 426]

Once all the wise old tribesman that have respect are gone which is not far away. The next generation from what I know personally and what I gather abroad this situation is only going to get worse by 100% It's very sad

[Allen50]

so is this something that is going to happen and you know, or did it happen all ready as dec 10th and 11th are monday tuesday,, the 8th and 9th were the weekend so was just woundering,,, lol lol...

[Piperdown]

I'm sick of this shit!

[Spy]

so is this something that is going to happen and you know, or did it happen all ready as dec 10th and 11th are monday tuesday,, the 8th and 9th were the weekend so was just woundering,,, lol lol...
Not following you ! This is an old thread that has being revived !

[Clouddog]

That is not acceptable. I hope the poacher(s) are caught and restricted to own a gun for life and fined 10K.

[Spy]

That is not acceptable. I hope the poacher(s) are caught and restricted to own a gun for life and fined 10K.
LOL we all hoped that ! But what are the chances,the laws that govern us non native folks, are not enforced on first nations folk ! I hate that we have to be grouped into different ethnic groups when we are " ALL" Canadians !It should be what is good for the goose is good for the gander ! Wishful thinking ! How would/could you change these atrocity's ?

[Allen50]

Not following you ! This is an old thread that has being revived !

read the first post said that it says the dec 10 and 11th weekend the dates are monday tuseday not the weekend,, the weekend is 8 th and 9th,,,so was just woundering,,

[Spy]

That is not acceptable. I hope the poacher(s) are caught and restricted to own a gun for life and fined 10K.
They have been caught & the one sheep they did take was found rotting behind a house !:twisted: Grrrrrrrrrrr !!!!!:evil::evil::evil:

[kendoo]

First post was 2011 Dec.

[frenchbar]

get over it ..its over and done with

[Spy]

get over it ..its over and done with
Thanks MOM !

[frenchbar]

Thanks MOM !
your welcome ..whiner:mrgreen:

[Spy]

your welcome ..whiner:mrgreen:
Yup right on the Money !:cry:

[YAMMY-CA]

Well I came across an awful sight while passing through Lytton on Monday AM. :evil::(

Two young rams have been killed and left right beside the cemetery on Botanie Mtn Road. The CO's have been notified, attended the scene, and are now asking our help for information on this senseless act.

So my hope is that our HBC hunting community can come together to provide any details on this incident...

These were shot and killed sometime over the weekend Dec 10th or 11th from the little road leading to the cemetery.

If you saw anyone or a vehicle near the area please call the RAPP hotline. Any little details will help! You can remain anonymous if you like.

Lets catch the person(s) responsible!


http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy156/Riverjet/Ram1a.jpg

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy156/Riverjet/Ram2a.jpg


Possibly for Cerimonial purposes?? .

[*bcgold*]

get over it ..its over and done withTwo threads on sheep were rehashed by 1 person.

[frenchbar]

Two threads on sheep were rehashed by 1 person.

quite sad realy:-? he means well but he realy needs to get out bowling and away from the comp lol

[Jelvis]

Some natives don't like transplanted animals in the area they live in. Some don't want any animals in the area that have been migrated into the area by trucks and u-hauls. Desease control for the natural wildlife in the area.
Especially from another province or state.
One band in Region 3 was asked by the Bio's if they would like the idea of bringing in elk from a national park by the bands area to start up a herd? They said no way. And they wouldn't garrr in tee they wouldn't shoot them all. So that plan was scrapped.
Jel .. No transplants wanted thank you was the attitude, enuff immigrants already.

[olympia]

so they caught the people who did this? where is the news link? what are the names of the culprits that would have been published in newspaper? did the paper confirm they were native? were they even caught at all? i looked through most of the pages and did not find any links to story of them being caught i will look some more

[olympia]

still looking for link to newspaper article that would have verified if they were caught or not, sounds like a non-native is spreading false facts...is this what you talked about at the clan meeting last week? where is the proof the culprits were caught and what ethnicity they were? my apologies in advance if you already posted the proof and i might have missed it.

[Gateholio]

still looking for link to newspaper article that would have verified if they were caught or not, sounds like a non-native is spreading false facts...is this what you talked about at the clan meeting last week? where is the proof the culprits were caught and what ethnicity they were? my apologies in advance if you already posted the proof and i might have missed it.

You sound pretty foolish talking about "clan meetings" when there is a long thread about this topic, on this website- complete with news articles.

[IHUNTBC]

I wish we had way more CO's.....................what an absolute shame................

[olympia]

You sound pretty foolish talking about "clan meetings" when there is a long thread about this topic, on this website- complete with news articles.

so where is the proof the culprits were caught? im commenting on this thread only, why are you bringing in the "other" thereads? My question is how did the rest of you come to know about who did it and when they got caught? what proof do we have that natives are doing these types of things in greater proportion to non-natives? is there a place i dont know about that has statistics? pictures? videos? my reference to "clan meetings" is to the 1 or 2 individuals that come on here and make up a thread to see who else takes the bait and then all of a sudden we got a full fledged native bashing going on. Dont come on here and whine, send an email to your local mp and make his email address public so all like minded individual can email him and maybe the rules may change, starting a thread that quickly morphs into a bashing thread does nothing

[Gateholio]

so where is the proof the culprits were caught? im commenting on this thread only, why are you bringing in the "other" thereads? My question is how did the rest of you come to know about who did it and when they got caught? what proof do we have that natives are doing these types of things in greater proportion to non-natives? is there a place i dont know about that has statistics? pictures? videos? my reference to "clan meetings" is to the 1 or 2 individuals that come on here and make up a thread to see who else takes the bait and then all of a sudden we got a full fledged native bashing going on. Dont come on here and whine, send an email to your local mp and make his email address public so all like minded individual can email him and maybe the rules may change, starting a thread that quickly morphs into a bashing thread does nothing

Open your eyes and read the other thread that is on the same topic as this thread.

[edgar11]

Another Racism thread. If your narrow minded and hate people because of the color of their skin put up your hand! Wow, can't believe moderators put up with these.

[The Dawg]

Another Racism thread. If your narrow minded and hate people because of the color of their skin put up your hand! Wow, can't believe moderators put up with these.

How was this thread racist?

It is a proven fact that they were shot and left by First nations people

[Gateholio]

Another Racism thread. If your narrow minded and hate people because of the color of their skin put up your hand! Wow, can't believe moderators put up with these.

People hate it that the color of a persons skin makes some people immune to some laws. The system is racist.

[The Dude]

You're only racist if you're white! C'mon, guys.

Olympia and Edgar and others:

The guys were caught, they're from the Lytton band. They shot three rams, said they had "No idea" theyd shot 3 Rams, with multiple shots from a .17 HMR!!!!!
They claim they thought it was only one. By a cemetary, near houses. In the open.
Uhmmm yeahhh....
They then took the one ram back to the Rez, where they left it outside to rot. Acting on a tip (Another Band member?) The CO's got the rotting ram and the rifle.

The reason I bumped this thread is to find out if anyone knew if any punishment in any form was handed out to the guilty poaching thieving scum that did this.

Sorry, the only thing racist about any of this is the fact that I would bet NOTHING happened to these wankers, whereas if you were white, black, asian or hispanic you'd be rotting in prison.

[lovemywinchester]

Another Racism thread. If your narrow minded and hate people because of the color of their skin put up your hand! Wow, can't believe moderators put up with these.

Not racist at all. Racist is thrown around so much these days. So stupid. My buddy works in a hotel in Whistler and had to tell a room full of kids to shut up at 2 am. They were asian/cans. Called him a racist. Go figure.

So here is a helping of knowledge for all reading this thread regarding these young men who killed the sheep. I worked for the Lytton band this fall and talked a lot of hunting with the guys I worked with. They have bag limits for the band members. They follow the same seasons as we do. Will everyone follow the rules? Maybe not. Just like the rest of BC hunters a few bad apples spoil the bunch. They were choked at some other FN guys for taking elk around there when they are not supposed to. I brought up the sheep and they were ALL pissed at these guys for what they did. The guys had to go through the bands justice system as well as having to deal with a lot of angry locals. Pretty sure they learned their lesson.
One thing that seems to get lost in these threads is that the FN value the game as much and probably more than we do. Once again, bad apples.

[edgar11]

People hate it that the color of a persons skin makes some people immune to some laws. The system is racist.

So the system is racist so "Indian" jokes are consistantly allowed to exist on this site? I see it over and over some yahoo throws in pokes here and there while a discussion is going on regarding FN issues. I see where your beliefs and values exist there gatehouse.

[The Dude]

Any idea of what the Band did LMW? Did the CO confiscate the GUN, at least?
Fines, Community Service on the Rez, anything?

[The Dawg]

It's been said before. If there is something that breaks the site rules, click report a post


FWIW, most of the bashing/jokes I have seen get deleted and then locked

[lovemywinchester]

Any idea of what the Band did LMW? Did the CO confiscate the GUN, at least?
Fines, Community Service on the Rez, anything?

I didn't hear any thing about confiscation. Didn't sound like it but from the way the guys I talked to(35+ year olds) were talking the shooters were in deep shit but only from the band. You know the laws Dude. It really was a big deal to all involved from the gist I got. It wasn't like they brushed it off as we can do what we want. Like any small town, young people screw up and learn from it. I don't want to sound like I know all the details but this was just a few things I took from the conversation.
It was cool talking to the guys there and hearing their stories about family and friends taking big bucks and other animals from over the years. They talked about the whitetails moving in and how they are in the Botaine valley now. Hunters are all the same.:) We just want to hunt.

[The Dude]

Well that's good to hear, but if they're gonna insist they deal with it themselves, I wish they'd let the hammer fall, know what I'm saying?
No guns, no hunting, community service, etc. If a non-native did this, all hell would break loose both legally, financially and socially.

[Gateholio]

So the system is racist so "Indian" jokes are consistantly allowed to exist on this site? I see it over and over some yahoo throws in pokes here and there while a discussion is going on regarding FN issues. I see where your beliefs and values exist there gatehouse.

We delete racists posts. In fact there is a post in this thread that I deleted for using the term "Injun"

Discussion of a racist system that permits different punishment based on skin color is not racist- the system is racist.

[Whonnock Boy]

So the system is racist so "Indian" jokes are consistantly allowed to exist on this site? I see it over and over some yahoo throws in pokes here and there while a discussion is going on regarding FN issues. I see where your beliefs and values exist there gatehouse.

I ASSume you know where the log out icon is?????

[The Dude]

Lest we forget:

Ram 3 was tken and left to rot, here's Rams one and two. As you can see, they are in a remote area, in heavy cover, so it's easy to see how you could become confused.

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj313/Heliox18/Forum%20Ammo/Ram1a.jpg


http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj313/Heliox18/Forum%20Ammo/Ram2a.jpg

[lovemywinchester]

Let it go bra.

[pickle88]

one law for ALL canadian citizens..

[The Dude]

Hungry hunters kill big horn sheep (http://www.castanet.net/news/BC/72050/Hungry-hunters-kill-big-horn-sheep)
by The Canadian Press - Story: 72050
Mar 7, 2012 / 9:03 am


http://www.castanet.net/content/2012/3/ram_p646378.jpg Photo: Trevor Rockliffe
This file photo shows a bighorn ram looks at the camera near Kamloops BC


Poaching has been ruled out as officials have found the hunters who shot two bighorn rams near Lytton, B.C., just before Christmas.
Conservation officer Bob Butcher says two Lytton men, aged 22 and 30, have confessed to shooting the sheep for food.
He says men were using a very small calibre rifle, which is illegal to use for big game, when they targeted a herd of bighorn sheep near the Fraser Canyon community, about 250 kilometres northeast of Vancouver.
Butcher says the men killed one sheep and took it home but had no idea they had mortally wounded two other rams, and the animals died later.
He says because poaching is not involved, the men will go through the restorative justice program and will not face criminal charges.
Butcher notes this case is unrelated to an incident near Clinton, north of Lytton, where three bighorn rams and one ewe were shot and dumped on ranch land, just days after the dead rams were found near Lytton. (CHNL)

[scoutlt1]

Let it go bra.

I disagree. It gets "let go" far to often!!!

[lovemywinchester]

Let it go x2. It was last March. Nothing good can come from this. The shooters have been dealt with, the rams are skeletons, get over it.

Deer season ends tomorrow. I guess we have to get ready for the crap season on HBC. I'm going coyote hunting tomorrow. You guys?

[Whonnock Boy]

What a lovely little snippet by the Canadian Press. Certainly side stepping the true story I would say. :-|

[The Dude]

Too many people have let it go for too long, which is why we have a two-tiered system of rights and punishments here.
And getting frowny faces from the rest of the band is a long way from being "dealt with" IMHO.
I was hoping for better news, but then again, you said you didn't hear it all, so I'll email the CO.

[lovemywinchester]

Too many people have let it go for too long, which is why we have a two-tiered system of rights and punishments here.
And getting frowny faces from the rest of the band is a long way from being "dealt with" IMHO.
I was hoping for better news, but then again, you said you didn't hear it all, so I'll email the CO.

Whatever Dude. Have fun beating the dead horse.

[The Dawg]

Whatever Dude. Have fun beating the dead horse.


Dead ram, x3

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_BlHU9Wq1CDw/Szgc8YYhYfI/AAAAAAAACNE/DgiOmZnwi6s/crab%20cook%5B3%5D.gif

[olympia]

im sure plenty of natives have poached this past season and im sure plenty of non natives have poached and gotten away with it because of lack of co presence and lack of funding from the gov. we need to realize poaching/inter-galactic anal sex is the real enemy

[edgar11]

I ASSume you know where the log out icon is?????

Wow!Did you think that one up all by your self there wonnok boy? Good one.
off topic note: My favorite band happens to be SIMPLE MINDS!

[The Dawg]

Wow!Did you think that one up all by your self there wonnok boy? Good one.
off topic note: My favorite band happens to be SIMPLE MINDS!

How fitting. That was the poachers band too

[trapperRick]

Maybe just Hungry Hunters again?

[Gateholio]

im sure plenty of natives have poached this past season and im sure plenty of non natives have poached and gotten away with it because of lack of co presence and lack of funding from the gov. we need to realize poaching/inter-galactic anal sex is the real enemy

They may have got away with it, but once hey are caught, how it is handled from there comes down to the color of your skin.

[huntcoop]

Wonder what the punishment would been for 2 white guys shooting those rams for food?

[beni]

Apparently, the area where the rams were shot was not in a no-shooting zone... I don't know, but could probably ask the local cop who was shooting at geese at the ferry the other day here in Lytton (not that far from where the rams were shot, ferry is also located on Reserve land). He was shooting while the Ferrymen watched, maybe 100 yards from the ferry itself. Oh, and there is a house there right beside the ferry... and one two on the other side of the river right there.. Much closer to houses/people than where the non-fn cop was shooting... But hey, what do I know... right? Also, these rams weren't taken in an area where there are houses in the vicinity... the closest house in the direction of the shots is a few KM up the road you see in the one picture, and the rest are on the other side of the mountain... just putting that out there.

Even having spent the year working here I still haven't found out who these Poachers were. (Yes, they were young native guys... using a USELESS calibre.. they were also Shooting on Reserve land). It still makes me sick how they shot the rams wasted all of them, hell i'd love to pay them a visit myself. I was hoping to harvest one of them in season in the future, (I know where they hang out ;))

I saw about 20 rams sunday, according to what some say about native rights I could have dropped any one of them. Too bad they weren't in season and the 3 biggest still wouldn't have been big enough to pass the Regs definition for the area(s). Darn, hey? Well... I guess not all of us natives like to go out and kill anything we see.


There are a LOT more natives who follow the rules than you people give credit for, but hey... it's the internet and some of you know everything, right?


Close this thread, haven't these rams been beaten to death enough already? Letting it continue is just a black mark on this forum IMO

[The Dude]

All anyone is saying beni, is that those pukes should be punished. Severely. And we ALL agree on that.

[Jelvis]

Check the Lyton castanet thread I'm setting up a meeting with some members here and anyone interested to join the team.
I can help set it up but won't be going myself.
Jel .. Noahdawg would be someone who could be a major player here also?