Resident hunters fight outfitters in Cariboo region over allocation

[Ry151]

It appears that the outfitters are mad that they aren't getting enough of the hunts, interesting read.

http://welcometowilliamslake.ca/index.php/the-news/local-news/4709-resident-hunters-and-guide-oufitters-face-off-over-allocation.html

[olharley guy]

Howdy, maybe the outfitters could drop their prices a little to use up their allocations and get a full booking year? Something the Americans could afford. Later

[JIL_24/7]

Bottom line is that the outfitters have a right to make a living, but facts are facts. Why do you need more tags if you can't and don't use them? It is not the number of tags that is limiting the outfitters' ability to make a living; it is the inability of many to afford a guided trip. Having more tags does not mean people have more money, so why shouldn't resident hunters get a chance to fill tags that aren't going to be used?

[Fisher-Dude]

http://welcometowilliamslake.ca/images/stories/news4/121211_no_hunting.jpgBy LeRae Haynes
The BC Ministry of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations announced last week that they are refining their wildlife harvest allocation policy—an action that BC Wildlife Federation Regional President for the Cariboo Chilcotin Jacques Drisdall describes as ‘the government buckling under pressure.’
Jacques said that the topic of ‘allocation’ has been a controversial one for several years, with a lot of ‘back and forth’ between resident hunters, guide outfitters and the BC government.

He explained that the allocation policy was signed in 2009 by the government, the guide outfitters and resident hunters, and was to be implemented in 2012. He added that it took three years to negotiate.
“This policy established rules for all regions in the province, with allocation split between different species. When it came to moose, for example, the formula indicated that 75% went to resident hunters and 24% to guide outfitters,” he explained.
“It gave everybody a chance to work into it for the three years leading up to 2012. Part of the agreement is that if one user group does not harvest their percentage, some of it would be re-allocated to the other group.”
He said that what’s happened locally is that resident hunters have now been allocated an additional 9% from guide outfitters, who didn’t reach their harvest percentage. “This means that in 2012 the guide outfitters would get 18% and the resident hunters would get 82%.
“The guide outfitters were unhappy with the change in allocation. These are tough economic times and some of them couldn’t get the American hunters up here. The cost of travel is up, so they’re just not selling their hunts,” he continued.
“The outfitters complained: they now want changes to the allocation policy because it’s ‘unfair’ to them.”
He said that the government buckled under pressure from the outfitters and ordered an independent review, resulting in a report by Chris Trumpy, formerly from the Ministry of the Environment. “He came back and made a bunch of recommendations that favoured the guide outfitters and we came back and said, ‘No—it’s a negotiated, signed deal.’
“The government sat on this for a year, while the hunters and outfitters pressured them to make a decision. Then we’d at least know where the battle lines were drawn. Finally, the press release about allocation came out last week.”
He said that resident hunters haven’t responded yet, adding that this new policy will give flexibility to the regional Resource Management office of the Ministry of Forests to adjust guide outfitter quotas under ‘extenuating circumstances’ which would come directly off resident hunter quotas.
“We’re concerned that this would include ‘back-door deals’ and we’re currently attempting to get some clarification on this. For example, we want to know if this clause will be interpreted the same way in Williams Lake as it is in Cranbrook,” he stated.
“Our argument is, ‘We negotiated this policy in good faith and you agreed to it. If you can’t maintain your business and need the government to change policy for you, well, imagine what would happen if retail stores and restaurants could go to the government and say they needed subsidizing because of the economy,” he concluded.
“If you can’t get hunters to buy the hunt, extra allocation isn’t going to do you any good anyway.”

[Str8shooterbc]

Oh man here we go. This is going to end the same way as the fishing of halibut. Between First Nations and Commercial allocations the sport fisher is nearly squeezed right out. This is wide open to Government graft and Ministry employees showing favoritism.

“…this new policy will give flexibility to the regional Resource Management office of the Ministry of Forests to adjust guide outfitter quotas under ‘extenuating circumstances’ which would come directly off resident hunter quotas.”

Notice the quotas are “guide outfitter quotas” and so guess who is going to take in the you know where?

Is there any end to this wide open door to government employees being given the keys to the candy store while the owner is away for a holiday??

[CanuckShooter]

Next thing you know everything will be on leh, just wait and see.

[coach]

Next thing you know everything will be on leh, just wait and see.

Stir, stir, stir..

[CanuckShooter]

Stir, stir, stir..

;-), a watched kettle never boils, helps if you add salt to the mix though.

[Downwind]

Next thing you know everything will be on leh, just wait and see.

Did you eat paint chips as a child?

[blackbart]

A letter to your local politician would be a better use of words than anything written on this forum.

Show the voted officials where the votes are coming from.

[Piperdown]

I know of one outfitter in the caribou area who was selling his moose tags/allocation to buddies for a couple of hundred bucks just to make sure his tags were used as he caters to the American clients and they have all but dried up.

[SHAKER]

Next thing you know everything will be on leh, just wait and see.

Bite your tonge! G\O's would love that to happen, it's really easy to control resident pressure in an area if you only have a few tags available.

[Livewire322]

Did someone shit on your corn flakes this morning?
@ Downwind

[Str8shooterbc]

I know of one outfitter in the caribou area who was selling his moose tags/allocation to buddies for a couple of hundred bucks just to make sure his tags were used as he caters to the American clients and they have all but dried up.


If you have evidence of that can you PM me? or E-mail me at askken@shotgunsbc.ca

Ken

[CanuckShooter]

I know of one outfitter in the caribou area who was selling his moose tags/allocation to buddies for a couple of hundred bucks just to make sure his tags were used as he caters to the American clients and they have all but dried up.


Got any contact info, lots of us would rather pay a couple hundred for a sure thing than waste money on LEH applications......

[Downwind]

Did someone shit on your corn flakes this morning?
@ Downwind

Actually I had oatmeal with berries. It was delicious and nutritious. :D What you are asking about is what keeps getting regurgitated by CS over and over and over. Kind of like a broken record.

[Drillbit]

Pretty sure this'll be a lose/lose for both parties involved. Wolves have eaten everything up in Region 5.

Should be free Heli rides and a permit to clean up the wolf population, otherwise it's just going to get worse.

[TPK]

Pretty sure this'll be a lose/lose for both parties involved. Wolves have eaten everything up in Region 5.

Should be free Heli rides and a permit to clean up the wolf population, otherwise it's just going to get worse.

Free?? I would pay a good chunk of change and I know a few others that would as well. Sell LEH seating in the chopper .. that will recover some of the cost. But alas ... as always, politics in the way of getting things done.

[Drillbit]

Shouldn't have to pay to be a part of the solution. We already pay enough, and all we have are problems.

And sorry Tony, but selling LEH to recover cost is very BC political thinking.

When the province of Sask had a coyote problem 3 years ago, they paid 20 bucks for a set of feet. They paid out on 70,000 sets of feet.....yep 1.4 million dollars. That 's how you get results, not charging admission.

Also, thanks Tony, for speaking on behalf of the hunters in Reg 5 at the meeting. I was unable to attend, but heard you were well organized and did a good job.

[Jack Russell]

Bottom line is that the outfitters have a right to make a living, but facts are facts. Why do you need more tags if you can't and don't use them? It is not the number of tags that is limiting the outfitters' ability to make a living; it is the inability of many to afford a guided trip. Having more tags does not mean people have more money, so why shouldn't resident hunters get a chance to fill tags that aren't going to be used?

Can't ever remember any reasons why an outfitter, hunting or fishing, has a RIGHT to make a living off a public resource. I just can't rationalize that train of thought in my mind. Guides are a part of the equation, no question, but to give them the RIGHT? I don't know about you, but last time I checked, I felt it was a priviledge to hunt and fish, just like the next guy. As far as I"m concerned, LOCALS/RESIDENTS are FIRST, after other constitutional requirements are met. Not enough to go around after that? Too bad, the US hunter/angler can stay home.

[f350ps]

I know of one outfitter in the caribou area who was selling his moose tags/allocation to buddies for a couple of hundred bucks just to make sure his tags were used as he caters to the American clients and they have all but dried up.
I probably know who yer talkin about, I've seen him with some his buddys and when I got talking to one of them he blew it and said that he was just filling tags. K

[Str8shooterbc]

Commercial hunting was responsible for a lot of extinctions. Sport hunting conserves by nature of the participant.


Can't ever remember any reasons why an outfitter, hunting or fishing, has a RIGHT to make a living off a public resource. I just can't rationalize that train of thought in my mind. Guides are a part of the equation, no question, but to give them the RIGHT? I don't know about you, but last time I checked, I felt it was a priviledge to hunt and fish, just like the next guy. As far as I"m concerned, LOCALS/RESIDENTS are FIRST, after other constitutional requirements are met. Not enough to go around after that? Too bad, the US hunter/angler can stay home.

[40incher]

That's just one of the many problems with our "new" half-baked allocation policy. The guides can burn off their allocation to prove "utilization" but we, as residents, can't get more LEH authorizations because the bureaucrats say that will hurt our utilization cause. Too bad our people can't think past the end of their nose.

Give me the old policy back any day, where the guides could go to 0% instead of the guaranteed minimums that were negotiated away by "our" resident "representatives". Wonder if they even know what represent means?!

Every time we as residents come up against a challnge we lose. Who is our "voice"? That was a rhetorical question by the way, we all know who the go-to guys are. Too bad they are so compromised.

[pappy]

I agree with Jack Russell's post, after all the back and forth about outfitters on here I know they will always be around but they are not priority. We live here and make this place what it is, so all who want to hunt here from elsewhere should come in a very far second. Those who make a living off of selling our wildlife resources should realize that their customers have no more money, that means if theres no market for it then maybe its time to move on to another job. They signed the deal that was made how come they can't honour it?

[silvicon]

Last time i checked there where nearly 50% of moose tags unused in region 5.
Who needs more tag if they don't use the ones available?

[boxhitch]

Yeah, why is that ?
Do the g/os really need more than what they have ?
Good point Silvicon

[Livewire322]

Last time i checked there where nearly 50% of moose tags unused in region 5.
Who needs more tag if they don't use the ones available?

I used to hunt the Likely area but there isn't enough game to justify the drive!
Damn predators no doubt...:evil:

[REMINGTON JIM]

Last time i checked there where nearly 50% of moose tags unused in region 5.
Who needs more tag if they don't use the ones available?

HI - being from 5-1 I wonder what the success rate is of the leh moose draws here ?

[rocket]

actually the rumor i heard is government would like to hand hunting over to outfitters, and we'll all be going through them. Outfitters are pushing hard for this

[Livewire322]

actually the rumor i heard is government would like to hand hunting over to outfitters, and we'll all be going through them. Outfitters are pushing hard for this

Well then I predict mass civil disobedience with firearms involved so I don't think the govnt would try that one on us :twisted:

[The Dude]

I know of an outfitter this fall that did the same thing. I got offered a moose hunt for $200-$500 by a hunter that was gonna go and take him up on it. I passed. Already had my plane ticket.

[Everett]

So nobody is upset that foreigners get %25 of the moose in region 5. Thats bullshit %5 max for fat Yanks and ugly germans is my concept of equal distribution of tags.
In this crap econmy I imagine people in region 5 could use some moose meat in the freezer instead of some foreigner getting it.

[blacklab]

How many foreigners do you think take the meat? Think about what it would cost to ship 400 pounds of moose meat.

[TPK]

Shouldn't have to pay to be a part of the solution. We already pay enough, and all we have are problems.
And sorry Tony, but selling LEH to recover cost is very BC political thinking.

I know, it was more a tounge in cheek quip than a serious suggestion. .... But I would pay for a seat in that chopper.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

How many foreigners do you think take the meat? Think about what it would cost to ship 400 pounds of moose meat.

Most don't take the meat (except the ones that drive) but all the meat is used to feed families in the local area. So the meat stays for the most part in region 5 anyways.

[CanuckShooter]

So nobody is upset that foreigners get %25 of the moose in region 5. Thats bullshit %5 max for fat Yanks and ugly germans is my concept of equal distribution of tags.
In this crap econmy I imagine people in region 5 could use some moose meat in the freezer instead of some foreigner getting it.


Would it make any difference if they weren't fat and ugly?? Why do you say 5%...when your on leh??

[EastKootenay]

Think of it this way...if the guide outfitting industry folds the government could do one of two things 1) ensure the same amount of total hunting generated revenue is recovered from resident hunting or 2) eliminate hunting because it costs more to adminster than it makes.
The anti-hunters love it when the hunting fraternity fights among itself – makes their job so much easier. You are either part of the hunting fraternity and an advocate for pro-hunting or you are not. J

[Everett]

Would it make any difference if they weren't fat and ugly?? Why do you say 5%...when your on leh??

I am just beig a smart ass CS they could be drop dead gorgous super models they still don't deserve %25 of our moose. I think %5 for foreigners is plenty when we have BC residents who only get to hunt Moose every 5 to 10 years in there own backyard.

[EastKootenay]

Uncontrolled "market hunting" was causing game collapses not commercial hunting. T Roosevelt eliminated market hunting. Isn't resident sport hunting just commercial hunting ? To the policy makers and economics who control it - it's all about buying gear, gadgets and gas. :-)


Commercial hunting was responsible for a lot of extinctions. Sport hunting conserves by nature of the participant.

[CanuckShooter]

I am just beig a smart ass CS they could be drop dead gorgous super models they still don't deserve %25 of our moose. I think %5 for foreigners is plenty when we have BC residents who only get to hunt Moose every 5 to 10 years in there own backyard.


Your not hardened enough IMO....they should have to apply for LEH like the rest of us, if they get a LEH then they should have to hire the appropriate outfitter.

[Spy]

Your not hardened enough IMO....they should have to apply for LEH like the rest of us, if they get a LEH then they should have to hire the appropriate outfitter.

X2 I agree totally! If there is a conservation concern & RH are on LEH than so should the guides & there clients!

[Everett]

Your not hardened enough IMO....they should have to apply for LEH like the rest of us, if they get a LEH then they should have to hire the appropriate outfitter.

Not a bad idea nice cash grab for the goverment LEH cards for N residents could be a $100 each. Still only want them to get %5 though.

[Husky7mm]

Everett I dont know what math was done to come up with exactly 25%, but dont you think the people that industry deserve to make a living too? Do you not have a friend or relative in that industry that you wish the best for? My guess the lack of clients in that area is not just money related. The hunt there may lack appeal. Other area's of BC and beyond may offer a better adventure and a better chance at a trophy, my guess is that is what people want when they are paying for a hunt.

[Everett]

Everett I dont know what math was done to come up with exactly 25%, but dont you think the people that industry deserve to make a living too? Do you not have a friend or relative in that industry that you wish the best for? My guess the lack of clients in that area is not just money related. The hunt there may lack appeal. Other area's of BC and beyond may offer a better adventure and a better chance at a trophy, my guess is that is what people want when they are paying for a hunt.

I don't have a problem with people making a living but non residents should only be allowed to hunt when demand by residents has been met so no hunting of any LEH specis because if its on LEH and fully subscribed resident demand has not been met. Letting non residents take %25 of our moose is nuts. The wildlife belongs to us not the guides.

[Piperdown]

It is kind of the same thing with the halibut allocation. Soon we will be at each others throats, guides and lodges against the rec angler. One says they are only giving the opportunity to take Canadians out to catch their own fish, but they are also making money off of it. While a true sporty is only putting food on his table with a lot of money invested and not making money. So we just bitch and complain while the granola munchers rub their hands.

[Husky7mm]

Fair enough, I never never though about that aspect of it in the LEH zones.

[6616]

Allocation for LEH species in all regions of BC average between 20 and 40 percent of the AAH allocated for non-residents. Almost all other jurisdictions in North America (if they even allow non-resident hunting of LEH species) limit the non-resident allocation to 10%. If guide-outfitters in BC are having a hard time making a go of it it's not because of the lack of non-resident allocation...!

[Str8shooterbc]

Uncontrolled "market hunting" was causing game collapses not commercial hunting. T Roosevelt eliminated market hunting. Isn't resident sport hunting just commercial hunting ? To the policy makers and economics who control it - it's all about buying gear, gadgets and gas. :-)

Not really, I surely don't make part or all of my living hunting. True the uncontrolled Market Hunting in the 19th century isn't close to the commercial fishing, or the guiding industry, however there is constant friction between those who participate in Recreational Sport Fishing or Hunting and those that derive their living from the same resource. Policy makers may or may not have any understanding about what is required or may be bias in their opinions. Allocation of the resource may be lopsided and unfair. When you throw Eco-terrorists into the mix many things become very touchy issue and can be explosive on all sides. I think your comment was a little over simplistic.

[Fisher-Dude]

Biased? How can Christy be biased when GOABC members gave her $10,000 for her campaign?

[SHAKER]

Everett I dont know what math was done to come up with exactly 25%, but dont you think the people that industry deserve to make a living too? Do you not have a friend or relative in that industry that you wish the best for? My guess the lack of clients in that area is not just money related. The hunt there may lack appeal. Other area's of BC and beyond may offer a better adventure and a better chance at a trophy, my guess is that is what people want when they are paying for a hunt.

No one makes sure my business is "viable" and I sure don't see any work from non resident hunters. My business only works if "resident hunters" are sucessfull and hopefully are "wall worthy" animals.

[snakeplain]

jack russell and everett are right, there is no way that the foreigners should have priority over any of the local bc residents or canadians to hunt game of any species in this province. the big game guides and outfitters should be treated like the rest of us, why do they think they have a right to the game moreso than any other canadian. the big game guides can also take part in conservation and go out and get a real job like the rest of us and put in their lehs. the comment about providing them with the ability to manage our resources would lead to chaos and the end of freedom to hunt in this country. access denial is the beginning of the end for family hunting in canada, i hope to hell i am wrong.

[REMINGTON JIM]

jack russell and everett are right, there is no way that the foreigners should have priority over any of the local bc residents or canadians to hunt game of any species in this province. the big game guides and outfitters should be treated like the rest of us, why do they think they have a right to the game moreso than any other canadian. the big game guides can also take part in conservation and go out and get a real job like the rest of us and put in their lehs. the comment about providing them with the ability to manage our resources would lead to chaos and the end of freedom to hunt in this country. access denial is the beginning of the end for family hunting in canada, i hope to hell i am wrong.

X2 i think you are completely correct !

[Str8shooterbc]

Well, unfortunately, I think you're right too. I have lived in Scotland and all the land is owned - no Crown Land. It is certainly a different story as this is a situation that predated the Knights age, but Canada or rather BC can and will go in that direction if we are not vigulant. One thing existed in Scotland, though that we have lost here. Scotland has an access law. You can cross private land as long as it is not under crop. We have the English Law here where unless there is an easement the land owner can deny access. Too bad really as Canadian Law is so much like Scottish Law in many ways. We are loosing that too as more and more people from elsewhere have influence over law making.

[Walking Buffalo]

jack russell and everett are right, there is no way that the foreigners should have priority over any of the local bc residents or canadians to hunt game of any species in this province. the big game guides and outfitters should be treated like the rest of us, why do they think they have a right to the game moreso than any other canadian. the big game guides can also take part in conservation and go out and get a real job like the rest of us and put in their lehs. the comment about providing them with the ability to manage our resources would lead to chaos and the end of freedom to hunt in this country. access denial is the beginning of the end for family hunting in canada, i hope to hell i am wrong.

This is why every HBC member should be checking out this thread and taking the survey.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?73805-Natural-Resources-Road-Act


As a resource user, outfitters may get a key to the gates while the public is barred from YOUR PUBLIC LAND!

[srupp]

Hmmm having lived here for 30 plus years , and guided here in the past...

1) the wolves have become an iifestation, they are everywhere...doing incredible damage to wildlife numbers..

2) guides /outfitters are not selling out on moose deer hunts..even some G bears hunts are not taken..this is not only here but all over..some guides indeed are dropping prices significantly,,,VERY SIGNIFICANTLY...

3)imo A DEAL IS A DEAL....BS when the rules change mid-term..

4) deer #s..especially large bucks are down considerably..

5) Cali sheep are almost non recoverable..#s down over 90%

last years snow levels were brutal on game #s..one are of our region..Cariboo mts..ie 5-15 showed a loss of 1,000 moose...now..part of that # is surely predation by wolves..HOWEVER moose did migrate and winter in COMPLETELY NEW AREAS DUE TO THE SNOW LEVELS..so IMO some of the "loss " was some moose merely moved farther West and south..ie into Beaver valley to winter..and this was NOT the traditional area surveyed for counting.

Some "advice" those that are considering a GRIZZLY bear for a rug or mount..should wisely concentrate on THIS in the next few draws..pressure is mounting to shut it down..completely..


cheers...

srupp:-D

[f350ps]

last years snow levels were brutal on game #s..one are of our region..Cariboo mts..ie 5-15 showed a loss of 1,000 moose...now..part of that # is surely predation by wolves..HOWEVER moose did migrate and winter in COMPLETELY NEW AREAS DUE TO THE SNOW LEVELS..so IMO some of the "loss " was some moose merely moved farther West and south..ie into Beaver valley to winter..and this was NOT the traditional area surveyed for counting.

Hmmm, so what yer saying is nobody really knows if there was ANY winterkill, just a guess then? K

[fowl language]

the minister has made his decision on the allocation,and all i,m sayin is the guides are very unhappy.will post when i,m given the go ahead......fowl

[yukon john]

jack russell and everett are right, there is no way that the foreigners should have priority over any of the local bc residents or canadians to hunt game of any species in this province. the big game guides and outfitters should be treated like the rest of us, why do they think they have a right to the game moreso than any other canadian. the big game guides can also take part in conservation and go out and get a real job like the rest of us and put in their lehs. the comment about providing them with the ability to manage our resources would lead to chaos and the end of freedom to hunt in this country. access denial is the beginning of the end for family hunting in canada, i hope to hell i am wrong.

Lol just like oil,.gas,timber etc there shouldn't be any foreign company profiting from our natural resources... give your head a shake. How many guys on here work directly or indirectly for foreign owned companies harvesting our natural resources

[srupp]

f350ps..they do a areiel survey in the exact same area..at the same time as years gone by...for last 25 years not nearly the "NORMAL" SNOW LEVELS WE ARE USED TO..suddenly in 2010 boom we get hammered two fold..snow levels so deep it in fact DID MOVE WINTERING moose...I know where they moved and why the moved..PLUS the wolves numbers increased seemingigly overnite..actually over 4 years..and deep snow and increase in wolves is a bad, very bad combination..with the cold it was indeed a perfect storm.

IMO it was indeed a documentation of a significant loss of moose from just one area of the zone..now wheather the numbers work out that it was an anomoly..and the #s bounce bakc IF we get a winter with far less snow... or did the snow levels allow caranage to devistatethes 1,000 moose..

IMO its a bit of both...snow levels changed when and where the moose wintered and were not included in the census..and were counted as "Gone"

Along with it MUST BE increased predation by wolves..more wolves by expodental #'s and deeper snow ..do not paint a pretty picture for winter survival..a larger # will have certainly been harveszted by wolves..

In no way do I think wolves are responsible for all 1.000 moose...


steven

[CanuckShooter]

f350ps..they do a areiel survey in the exact same area..at the same time as years gone by...for last 25 years not nearly the "NORMAL" SNOW LEVELS WE ARE USED TO..suddenly in 2010 boom we get hammered two fold..snow levels so deep it in fact DID MOVE WINTERING moose...I know where they moved and why the moved..PLUS the wolves numbers increased seemingigly overnite..actually over 4 years..and deep snow and increase in wolves is a bad, very bad combination..with the cold it was indeed a perfect storm.

IMO it was indeed a documentation of a significant loss of moose from just one area of the zone..now wheather the numbers work out that it was an anomoly..and the #s bounce bakc IF we get a winter with far less snow... or did the snow levels allow caranage to devistatethes 1,000 moose..

IMO its a bit of both...snow levels changed when and where the moose wintered and were not included in the census..and were counted as "Gone"

Along with it MUST BE increased predation by wolves..more wolves by expodental #'s and deeper snow ..do not paint a pretty picture for winter survival..a larger # will have certainly been harveszted by wolves..

In no way do I think wolves are responsible for all 1.000 moose..


So what your saying is there must have been some poaching going on????????????????????????????

[fearnodeer]

If the Goverment made a deal with the outfitters they should stick to it, because of the reccesion in the states they are having a hard time filling all of thier tags but if they are taken away when times are better do you think they will get them back ? I believe these outfitters have paid well for thier rights to guide in thier area's and do support the local economy. I also believe that a certain % of the clients are from B.C or other provinces so the 25% is not all out of the country clients. I am sure most people will dissagree with me but thats the way i see it.

[f350ps]

So what your saying is there must have been some poaching going on????????????????????????????

Your reading comprehension really sucks! SRupp, what I'd like to know is, if the Moose took such a beating as you suggest why would the MOE increase LEH numbers? K

[CanuckShooter]

Your reading comprehension really sucks! SRupp, what I'd like to know is, if the Moose took such a beating as you suggest why would the MOE increase LEH numbers? K

To increase revenue....easy answer.

[coach]

Hmmm having lived here for 30 plus years , and guided here in the past...

last years snow levels were brutal on game #s..one are of our region..Cariboo mts..ie 5-15 showed a loss of 1,000 moose...now..part of that # is surely predation by wolves..HOWEVER moose did migrate and winter in COMPLETELY NEW AREAS DUE TO THE SNOW LEVELS..so IMO some of the "loss " was some moose merely moved farther West and south..ie into Beaver valley to winter..and this was NOT the traditional area surveyed for counting.

cheers...

srupp:-D

I believe Steven made his case earlier in the thread. Sometimes it can be helpful to read all of what has been said. CS - I have no idea where your poaching statement came from??

[Fisher-Dude]

Some people are too dense to grasp the fact that GOS creates big revenues for the province while LEH stifles revenues. How far does $6 go in the healthcare system?

[CanuckShooter]

Coach--read last line in post #59

[coach]

I read that, CS - and I'm sure Steven will speak for himself here. From what he's said, I interpret that he doesn't fully believe 1000 moose are gone. I didn't read anything about poaching in to it.

[srupp]

Hi Guys...I believe we had 2 issues going on in conjunction..I DO NOT BELIEVE there is a sereious poaching problem going on EAST of Williams Lake..

I do believe the wolves have DEEPLY bit into the moose #s, deer #s...especially moose..calves...the wolf #s are incredibly high..even hitting the ranching comunity hard..

PLUS last years survey was done in the "traditional locations" however the moose had moived into differnt ares with much less snow...last year there was 30 FEET of snow where in past 25 years there has been far less..

so its hard to know how MUCH of that 1,000 moose loss in Cariboo mts was due to wolves... a high # to be sure but how high..??? I do not believe its the entire 1,000.

The more I check into this the HIGHER THE PREDATION #S are coming in significantly higher than in years gone by...MUCH MUCH WORSE..THERE IS EVEN A WOLF HARVEST CONTEST AT THE LOCAL GUN STORE..

So whats missing in 5-15 etc??? hard to know by where the count was done..BUT the # is over 1,000 moose missing in a year over year count....

It could be a significant amount are indeed wolf kills but I personally think its a combination..

steven

[gcreek]

Funny how just a few short weeks ago a dumb old cow farmer in the Chilcotin was basically called a whiner and a lier for suggesting that predation had badly decimated game numbers.

Did my comments make some of you notice different looking tracks or is all this information coming from the "Experts" from MOE?

The Bunny Sherriffs responded to 891 problem wildlife calls in the Cariboo-Chilcotin between February and mid-November. They say their COS killed 12 wolves. There is no proof of this number other than their word.

Kyle Lay, who was refused renewal of his special permit to mitigate predators last May accounted for 14 DEAD wolves in the 3 cases that the COS let him attend between May 2010 and May 2011. It took him a total of 35 days to get them.

The COS say they don't need his services "running around the country". I believe they are badly mistaken as his documented record of 390 cattle killing wolves between 2002 and 2008 while he was employed by BC Cattlemen's Assoc. is far greater than any of the COS can attest to.

[Fisher-Dude]

A washed-up old guide with nothing good to say about the CO Service that protects our fish & wildlife. Yep, lotsa credibility there. :roll:

[6616]

Last time i checked there where nearly 50% of moose tags unused in region 5.
Who needs more tag if they don't use the ones available?

Here's the Region 5 hard data (5-year average):
14,000 applicants apply annually for 4376 moose authorizations in R5 (average odds 3.2 to 1).
Out of the 4376 successful applicants 3123 bought moose tags (71.4%).
Those 3123 resident hunters shoot 968 moose annually out of a resident allocation of 1045 (92.6% utilization).

[CanuckShooter]

That's part of the problem, you cannot give back an leh if your not going to use it, so some othr guy could get one.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

I will have to agree with gcreek on this one. Kyle definately will out perform a group of CO's when it comes to catching wolves. If the government wants to look at dealing with the wolf problem let them certify the use of 1080 to deal with this problem. Talk about wasting the taxpayers money. If the cattlemen want to hire Kyle to do the trapping all the power to them. The CO's should step back and not spend the tax payers money protecting the ranchers. The MOE should look at enforcing their own laws and start taking away traplines and selling them to people that will actually use them.

[coach]

With utilization at 92.6%, CS, I'd say the number crunchers did a pretty good job of factoring everything in. No need for guys to give their unused LEH's back.

[6616]

That's part of the problem, you cannot give back an leh if your not going to use it, so some othr guy could get one.

You're right, I agree, and that is something that should be changed and made similar to bison authorizations.

In spite of the guys that don't buy tags, it seems like the Ministry has it figured out pretty well (using success rates to calculate authorization numbers) since the utilization is over 92%.

[CanuckShooter]

Doesn't help when you consider a good percentage of those leh draws were given to antis who had no intention of ever using them, I'd prefer to see 100% utilization.

[6616]

Doesn't help when you consider a good percentage of those leh draws were given to antis who had no intention of ever using them, I'd prefer to see 100% utilization.

Does it really matter if they go to anti's or hunters who don't use them, the end result is the same? The unused authorizations are still considered as unsuccessfuls when the success rates are determined that are then used to calculate the number of authorizations.

However, I still agree with you, especially in the cases of highly sought after high odds hunts, there should be a way to turn them back in. Of course the anti's won't take advantage of this anyway, but it's a shame and frustration for those guys who are dying for a Tat sheep hunt or a VI elk hunt for example to see authorizations going unused.

[CanuckShooter]

It matters to guys that haven't drawn in ten or more years! The way it works now it's underutilized by 8%.

[6616]

It matters to guys that haven't drawn in ten or more years! The way it works now it's underutilized by 8%.

Like I said, I agree with you, but still I have to admit that 92.6% utilization is pretty darned good, there are many LEH hunts in BC where the utilization by residents is much lower. There are even several hunts that are under-subscribed to (more authorizations available than LEH applicants).

[Fisher-Dude]

Conservative game managers consider utilization within 10% to be bang on. If there were a mechanism for handing back unused authorizations, they would simply decrease the available auths by 8% to keep harvest within the range they want it. The end result would be no more people hunting and no more moose shot. Rodger Stewart would be the last one to allow utilization to approach 100%, IMO.

[srupp]

gcreek makes some good sense on this one.... ALL the Lays have great reputations for "mitigating predators" hell the Lays have almost made it look easy..they DO know their stuff.... something happened to end his services...and it sure wasnt the results...not enough c/o's to have em out trying to harvest wolves..

Maybe time to place a $100 bounty on a wolf "harvested" and the option to also keep the hide...

I hear lots of ancedotal stories from lots of hunters about last years shitty season... a LOT of hunters that I had conversations with prior to their hunts did well and harvested moose. I ONLY hunted one area and we saw a reasonable amount of moose..however I had done the required homework...and pre-scouted the area...4 bulls came out of that small area..I did see a few bulls in 5-15 but wasnt watching all that carefully...

But I did get the #s in the one area from a completely reliable source..and I also know the C/O's are open about the wolf 'explosion"..

Its just kinda hard to determain #s when there are 2 variables that have changed..dramatic snow change resulting in home range shifts during the count AND DRAMATIC INCREASE IN WOLF #S..

I dont have the inside info on the WEST area..as Native hunting is never really over...its a all year adventure..others that live out there would have a more significant imput..I have heard the wolves have been bad out there however this is again second hand..last year when cougar hunting wolf sign was prevelent even close to residences...

I will keep my eyes open when out "working " on the ground and in the air.....

cheers

Steven

[gcreek]

A washed-up old guide with nothing good to say about the CO Service that protects our fish & wildlife. Yep, lotsa credibility there. :roll:

That's about the calibre of reply I expected from you or Jagermeister. So..... since he won't tell me maybe you will.....

What is your line of work, where do you live and how much time do you spend in the bush? (out of your vehicle)

I'll bet you are as credible as Jager is and won't answer the questions either.

For your information refreshment I was an assistant guide 20 years ago, I have never had the inclination to own an area. I am a rancher and I spend 350 days per year in the bush and on the land in a remote part of the Chilcotin. I believe I have more credibility as to what is out here than you or the COS or Roger Stuart. The problem with your type or them is that the truth is hard to deal with.

Please don't try matching wits, I don't like competing with an unarmed man.

[gcreek]

srupp, the only Lay's that can catch wolves effectively are Dan and Kyle.

Dan's brothers have only ever ridden on the name and I have told Al that personally. The old man, Jack was more of a cougar hunter and did use poison effectively back when.

As far as the Native hunting. When the numbers are low enough that they are 4-wheeling EVERYWHERE to find an elusive moose instead of shooting them off the road in their wintering areas you know there aren't many moose around. A friend of mine flew for cattle on the Chezacut Ranch range north of Redstone reserve 2 weeks ago. Years previous he has counted 75 to 125 moose in that area at the same time of year. This year there were NO moose and NO tracks.

[srupp]

hmmm thats the exact same area and time frame..2 weeks ago..Chezacut..and same scenario no moose, no tracks..that I have heard in past 3 days...

I dont know Kyle, Just Dan and Al...Dan did some amazing preditor culling in the Maeford Lake area..and knew Al was involved also..but the familly name is sound and respected////..

I do know of some wintering areas, some require some concerted effort....and up untill recently there has not been all that much snow to winter yard much....most of the tarps out West did seem to have moose/deer hanging under them..not too many were devoid of winter meat...however again I dont live there I visit routinely..and havnt heard too much about unsuccessful season.

I have no reason not to believe you, that indeed may be the case but there could be several reasons...I do travel the wintering grounds repeatadly...so will watch..it would indeed be tragic if the wolves are the main problem..and the big game goes the way of the east coast cod fishery..

The single big bucks have dimminished dramatically, as have the overall #s of mule deer (last few nights they seem to be everywhere..lol)and the Cali bighorn situation is well documented, now if the moose #s get screwed up could be a fine pickle.

I only asked about the Cariboo Mountains moose population..and my remarks mainly represent those findings, the wintering yard activity does vary dramatically from the Cariboo mts and their incredible snow levels, seemingly overnight, versus the semi desert west of the Fraser River..and the the timing of such yard ups...when I last flew the yard ups it was jan 1st with far more snow..and the #s were something to behold...



Hope closed wallets, closed minds dont close the hunting opportunities here in the Cariboo and the Province..

You are again correct in that as a rancher in the west chilcotin you are in a unique position spending more time in the field than anyone else..so you indeed should and do know whats happening in your neck of the woods far more than some desk jockey from MOE or the C/O'S who must travel all of their region...and the above noted agencies should be seeking imput from those in the know and on the land..more than even the weekend warrior seeking a moose every 4 years..lol...

I do hope your imput is sought out..and listened to...as should ALL THE RANCHERS..


cheers

Steven

[jessbennett]

X2 I agree totally! If there is a conservation concern & RH are on LEH than so should the guides & there clients!


ya, and so should first nations..........

[gcreek]

Thanks Steven, I am about the most politically incorrect person you may run into but if things are not spoken directly they are usually brushed off as inconsequential.

The main thing most beaurocrats are concerned about is keeping their jobs at this point, if half of the desk jockeys were fired and the money put to use on the ground we might see some beneficial changes. There was enough game to supply Go's, residents under LEH and the Natives until the predators got out of hand, now the "experts" will wring their hands and wonder what to do until it is too late. The BS about world views on us doesn't wash. A lot of other countries look after their problems with whatever means are needed and tourists still go there. (Australia and New Zealand use several tons of 10-80 each year)

I travel Hwy 20 3 times this fall in the dark both ways for most of it. I saw 5 deer total. 10 years ago it was nothing to see 50 to 70 deer between Alexis Creek and Redstone alone. Lots of fresh feed in the fire areas this year due to rainfall so where did they go? I don't think hunters or winter killed them all off.

[srupp]

Thanks Steven, I am about the most politically incorrect person you may run into but if things are not spoken directly they are usually brushed off as inconsequential.

The main thing most beaurocrats are concerned about is keeping their jobs at this point, if half of the desk jockeys were fired and the money put to use on the ground we might see some beneficial changes.


i have no confidence in the locals who set policy and seem to know it all, if ya ask em...I have seen some positive events in the arrival of the last couple of C/Os....

IM certain many ranches are going through tremendously costly $$$$ losses, it not just 1 or 2 ranches..and these concerns SHOULD get an educated, effective
solution that is agreeable, effective,

Same for the hunters in BC..habitat surcharge is not a general revenue money maker..higher Kyle and 10 like him, open a bounty WHATEVER IT TAKES..

cheers and THANK YOU for some pertinent info..

Steven

[gcreek]

I would make an educated guess that over a million dollars worth of Chilcotin cattle are wolf turds from this summer. Think of the game the puppies are eating also.

BCCA is conducting a loss survey this year, the results will be staggering provine wide if most affected ranchers hand their numbers in. The owner of Riske Creek Ranch told me they are over 100 short.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Those are incredible numbers but i don't doubt it. Out cat hunting with clients this past 2 weeks the deer are way down once again and the moose are few and far between. It does look bleak for the future of ungulates out west. I just finished boiling up some cables and am working over some iron to get put out this week. But this is only a drop in the bucket.
1080 is the only real answer.
The Co's hands are tied with their budget cuts they have received over the past years. Hardly enough money left to drive out west which is the shame.

[blacklab]

I think it's time the ranchers looked in the mirror and admitted they are partially responsible for the healthy wolf population in this province. How many of them dump carcasses of animals they loose in the winter on a dead pile to provide a steady food supply? What about the animals they leave on the range to winter, you don't think cows might be easier to catch than moose? They turn out cows and new calves on crown range as early as they can to provide easy pickings for wolf pups learning to hunt making sure all the pups survive.
How many ranchers do anything to help themselves? How many trap or hunt wolves that are in their back yard? Instead they want someone to babysit them and their livestock at taxpayers expense, or just give them another subsidy to compensate for their unconfirmed predator losses.

[The Dude]

I think it's time the ranchers looked in the mirror and admitted they are partially responsible for the healthy wolf population in this province. How many of them dump carcasses of animals they loose in the winter on a dead pile to provide a steady food supply? What about the animals they leave on the range to winter, you don't think cows might be easier to catch than moose? They turn out cows and new calves on crown range as early as they can to provide easy pickings for wolf pups learning to hunt making sure all the pups survive.
How many ranchers do anything to help themselves? How many trap or hunt wolves that are in their back yard? Instead they want someone to babysit them and their livestock at taxpayers expense, or just give them another subsidy to compensate for their unconfirmed predator losses.

The failboat has docked.........
just wondering if it's worth my time........

[blacklab]

Give it your best shot!

[gcreek]

I think it's time the ranchers looked in the mirror and admitted they are partially responsible for the healthy wolf population in this province. How many of them dump carcasses of animals they loose in the winter on a dead pile to provide a steady food supply? What about the animals they leave on the range to winter, you don't think cows might be easier to catch than moose? They turn out cows and new calves on crown range as early as they can to provide easy pickings for wolf pups learning to hunt making sure all the pups survive.
How many ranchers do anything to help themselves? How many trap or hunt wolves that are in their back yard? Instead they want someone to babysit them and their livestock at taxpayers expense, or just give them another subsidy to compensate for their unconfirmed predator losses.

Sadly enough I have to agree with portions of this post. A lot of them are guilty of doing exactly what you describe.

There are a lot of us that do dispose of carcasses, are more contientous about where our cattle are and do what we can about mitigating predators but the record has lots of room for improvement.

Personally, I would rather see the dollars spent for compensation spent on mitigation, as Rodger Stewart has been quoted "They are OUR wolves and WE are responsible for their management".
However, I would also like the choice possible if I want to hire a proven proffessional and pay for his services out of my own pocket (as I have in the past). I am only one of a small minority though.

I am also responsible for the demise of over 100 wolves in my lifetime, I expect to see that number increase over time.
Not many are capable of dealing with them. Kind of like taking a vehicle repair to a biologist.

[CanuckShooter]

ya, and so should first nations..........

They can't put them on leh unless there are conservation concerns, they have a legal right under Canadian law. Just more proof that leh for the most part isn't necessary or the natives would be under it also.

[jessbennett]

They can't put them on leh unless there are conservation concerns, they have a legal right under Canadian law. Just more proof that leh for the most part isn't necessary or the natives would be under it also.

your logic makes no sense whatsoever. the reason region 5 lost its spike fork gos, was because of conservation concerns. yet the first nations got to (and still do), get to kill any shape, or form of a moose that it out there. for the most part its seems painfully obvious that a young cow with a calf seems to be the target of choice. shoot the cow leave the calf. sure helps with the populations huh?
i have a legal right under canadian law to hunt as well. and if there is conservation concerns, and these low population numbers of moose, then no body, and that means NOBODY should be out harvesting them until these numbers go up.

and as far as leh NOT being necessary because "first" nations arent under them, well.........
taxes are necessary.......... you dont see natives under them either do ya......

[jessbennett]

I think it's time the ranchers looked in the mirror and admitted they are partially responsible for the healthy wolf population in this province. How many of them dump carcasses of animals they loose in the winter on a dead pile to provide a steady food supply? What about the animals they leave on the range to winter, you don't think cows might be easier to catch than moose? They turn out cows and new calves on crown range as early as they can to provide easy pickings for wolf pups learning to hunt making sure all the pups survive.
How many ranchers do anything to help themselves? How many trap or hunt wolves that are in their back yard? Instead they want someone to babysit them and their livestock at taxpayers expense, or just give them another subsidy to compensate for their unconfirmed predator losses.


what the hell else are they going to do with them? seriously. the reason wolf populations are up, is beacause they breed like rats. and there is no one or nothing controlling the populations..... ranches have worked the same way for generation and generations... now all the sudden it has caused this bloom in the wolf population?
turning cattle out to range early is nothing new. deadpiles are nothing new. winter ranging is nothing new.and more than a few do anything they can to get a crack at a wolf or a coyote. so please explain for us all, how a working operation that has for the most part been the same for generations and generations "ALL OF THE SUDDEN" caused the wolf population to bloom?????

guess all those ranchers and "deadpiles" in yellowstone park caused their wolf population to spread like vermin also huh?????


your post= epic fail................

[CanuckShooter]

Your missing the point Jess, the province cannot legally stop natives EXCEPT when there is a legitimate conservation concern....them not stopping native hunting is evidence that the region 5 leh isn't there because of conservation concerns!

[CanuckShooter]

Btw. We don't have a legal right to hunt.

[Ambush]

Btw. We don't have a legal right to hunt.

Yes, we do. Confirmed and reconfirmed.

[6616]

Btw. We don't have a legal right to hunt.

Copyright (c) Queen's Printer,
Victoria, British Columbia, CanadaIMPORTANT INFORMATION (mhtml:file://C:\Users\Andy\Documents\My Documents\BCWF\Hertiage Right to Hunt & Fish\The Hunting and Fishing Heritage Act.mht!x-usc:http://www.bclaws.ca/Recon/document/freeside/--%20t%20--/the%20hunting%20and%20fishing%20heritage%20act%20% 20sbc%202002%20%20c.%2079/00_02079_01.xml#!-- #id=info --#)http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/mhtml:file://C:\Users\Andy\Documents\My Documents\BCWF\Hertiage Right to Hunt & Fish\The Hunting and Fishing Heritage Act.mht!x-usc:http://styles.qp.gov.bc.ca/media/qpDate.gif
The Hunting and Fishing Heritage Act

[SBC 2002] CHAPTER 79



Assented to November 26, 2002

ContentsSection 1 (http://www.bclaws.ca/Recon/document/freeside/--%20t%20--/the%20hunting%20and%20fishing%20heritage%20act%20% 20sbc%202002%20%20c.%2079/00_02079_01.xml#section1)Right to hunt and fish (http://www.bclaws.ca/Recon/document/freeside/--%20t%20--/the%20hunting%20and%20fishing%20heritage%20act%20% 20sbc%202002%20%20c.%2079/00_02079_01.xml#section1)
Preamble

WHEREAS hunting and fishing are an important part of British Columbia's heritage and form an important part of the fabric of present-day life in British Columbia;
WHEREAS hunters and anglers contribute to the understanding, conservation, and management of fish and wildlife in British Columbia;
WHEREAS hunting and fishing should be recognized as legitimate forms of recreation and as legitimate tools with which to effectively manage the fish and wildlife of British Columbia;
THEREFORE HER MAJESTY, by and with the advice and consent of the Legislative Assembly of the Province of British Columbia, enacts as follows:

Right to hunt and fish

1 A person has the right to hunt and fish in accordance with the law.

Copyright (c) Queen's Printer, Victoria, British Columbia, Canada

[jessbennett]

Btw. We don't have a legal right to hunt.

really.............well....... i see that i was beaten to the punch with documentaition, but your post also......
= fail.............

[CanuckShooter]

Holy cow, at least you have rights in BC, whereas Indians have canada wide rights....that cannot be suppressed with schemes like the LEH. WIN :-)

[Fisher-Dude]

Btw. We don't have a legal right to hunt.

Epic CS fail.

[Ambush]

Holy cow, at least you have rights in BC, whereas Indians have canada wide rights....that cannot be suppressed with schemes like the LEH. WIN :-)

Sorry, lose again.
The crown conferred that right on us, in the early days of colonization.
It was last upheld in the ninties by the federal courts.

And since I ONLY recognize the Nation of Canada, within our borders, that is the law that binds me.

[CanuckShooter]

Ambush--where?? Show us the paper!! I'd never seen the bc one before, your saying we have it Canada wide too?!

[CanuckShooter]

Epic CS fail.

Be quiet, these boys are edumicaticing me and I don't need you distracting me. :-)

[srupp]

hmmmm dont throw this discussion to the WOLVES..however THATS the issue....concentrate on it..getting the message out..and leave the other "issues" for other discussions...

steven

[Fisher-Dude]

Be quiet, these boys are edumicaticing me and I don't need you distracting me. :-)




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNgv4Jp6ipc&feature=related

[Weatherby Fan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNgv4Jp6ipc&feature=related


FisherDude,
From the threads and posts he's been puttin up all the schooling in the world isn't going to help,your wasting your time :mrgreen:

[CanuckShooter]

FisherDude,
From the threads and posts he's been puttin up all the schooling in the world isn't going to help,your wasting your time :mrgreen:

Your one to talk...oh great one. You haven't posted anything intelligent in months now.

[jessbennett]

Your one to talk...oh great one. You haven't posted anything intelligent in months now.
says the pot to the kettle.........................

[gcreek]

hmmmm dont throw this discussion to the WOLVES..however THATS the issue....concentrate on it..getting the message out..and leave the other "issues" for other discussions...

steven


It's OK Steven, just a bunch of boys proving exactly what their total knowledge of what is happening in the bush.

If ya can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with BS.


Fisher-Dud, you haven't answered my question yet. Is that an admission of your credibility?

[CanuckShooter]

[/U][/B]
says the pot to the kettle.........................

You that guy that used to live in PG??...is that you Herbie?