swaro 20-60 65mm

[hunter1993ap]

i'm looking at a spotter, its a couple years old but still a swarovski. what price range should you expect for this scope(5 years old)? and i am having an argument with my dad. i want the swarovski and he keeps saying other scopes are less money have the same quality glass. is this true? like nikon, or pentax, vortex and others? and if the scope is used is the waranty void? thanks for any replies.

[vip_ruger]

Zeiss top of the line

[hunter1993ap]

i know zeiss and leika are also great quality but i was thinking more of the less popular brands.

[Matty_ola]

Keep this in mind. Everyone sees things diffrently and therefor someone might say the nikon scope is just as good as the swaro and another person might say the swaro is better than the zeiss....

The only way to know is to get behind each of them and see for yourself, no one knows how you see things and therfor no one can tell you what is best for you.

I personally can't tell the diffrence between my nikon Fieldscope ED82 and a 3500$ swaro that i looked through side by side... But then again I don't have the best vision either.

The scopes only as good as the eyes looking through it (Speaking in respect to the higher end optics of course)

My .02

[MuleyMadness]

i'm looking at a spotter, its a couple years old but still a swarovski. what price range should you expect for this scope(5 years old)? and i am having an argument with my dad. i want the swarovski and he keeps saying other scopes are less money have the same quality glass. is this true? like nikon, or pentax, vortex and others? and if the scope is used is the waranty void? thanks for any replies.

The only way to really judge a spotter is to use it just before dark, or even better, just before dark in pounding rain or less than ideal conditions. In sunlight, many of the top brands (and even not top brands) look great, it's when the light and the weather sucks that top quality glass shines through. Nikon and Pentax are both great glass, but in an honest, side by side comparison in less than good light, you're going to be hard pressed to say either is as good as swarovski, zeiss, leica, kowa, etc...and I am a big Pentax fan.

I feel, that if you can afford it, buy the swaro and be happy...you will never have to wonder if you could have gotten better glass...in 30 years of use is saving a thousand bucks a really big deal, long term? As for cost....damn near new pricing will likely apply if the glass, body, and eyepiece (if included) is perfect. A good place to check pricing is at CameraLand NY or Plainsight Solutions (I believe he is out of Quesnel actually, and if I remember correctly, may be a member here, he is definitely a member on CGN)....no one beats either of those two, at least as far as I have seen, and it will give you a scale to compare your particular deal against.

[hunter1993ap]

i had the swaro beside a leupold at last light looking at 1000 yards at a couple deer. the swaro was sharp and clear and the leupuold was dark and hard to see the deer. the swaro shined over the leupold 10x. i have a vortex i'm going to compare in the next few days just to see the difference.

[Fisher-Dude]

Buy the Swaro and you'll be happy forever. Same with Zeiss and Leica. The rest do not compare at all.

I have the 20-60 X 65HD Swaro and it's great. Sold my old Leupy to a friend, who this year sold the Leupy and had to buy a Swaro for himself after looking thru mine.

[The Hermit]

Fisher Dude. Do you really believe that or you just trying to piss me off? You know that KOWA spotters are consistently ranked among the best in the world, with their 88mm model as THE best, period. Moreover they are a little less money than the overpriced big names! Geesh lift your eyes beyond yesterday and get with it man, progress happens!

[2x4x16]

Fisher Dude. Do you really believe that or you just trying to piss me off? You know that KOWA spotters are consistently ranked among the best in the world, with their 88mm model as THE best, period. Moreover they are a little less money than the overpriced big names! Geesh lift your eyes beyond yesterday and get with it man, progress happens!
Not trying to be the antagonist, however we know that you sell the Kowa, what is the warranty like in their optics for years down the road. How do they hold up to 15 - 20 years in your pack bagging around , up and down the mountains. I have thought seriously about the Kowa - however I personally feel a little more comfortable with products that have been around for a long time. Again I'm not trying to stir the pot. I'm open to hear all comments.

[sarg]

Keep this in mind. Everyone sees things diffrently and therefor someone might say the nikon scope is just as good as the swaro and another person might say the swaro is better than the zeiss....

The only way to know is to get behind each of them and see for yourself, no one knows how you see things and therfor no one can tell you what is best for you.

I personally can't tell the diffrence between my nikon Fieldscope ED82 and a 3500$ swaro that i looked through side by side... But then again I don't have the best vision either.

The scopes only as good as the eyes looking through it (Speaking in respect to the higher end optics of course)

My .02
X2, well said,

[Tarp Man]

Definitely call and talk to Plainsight Solutions. He is the one that wrote that story of his dad and him hunting stone sheep. You may remeber the phrase "you all are pussies... f*@k this mountain!". Not bad for someone qualified for a senior's hunting license...

Anyways, talk with Omer, he knows his optics and uses them all. Ask him what he thinks, having looked through Zeiss, Swarovski, and Leica side by side on the same sitting. His prices are equal or better than everyone else. I bought my Swarovski EL's from him last year, he had no problem taking the top three outside to let me spend an hour looking through them all as the light faded. It is amazing the clarity of these high end binos as the light fades. I honestly felt sad comparing them with my Bushnell Legends. I would give him the courtesy of a call, and check out his trader ratings on candiangunnutz.

[Krico]

To answer the original question, anything beyond say $1200-$1500 for a used one (assuming it's in great condition) is asking too much. I got mine brand new for that a year and a half ago when they changed to the new magnesium housing and the old models were being blown out. Just be patient and watch for deals. I always laugh at the "Wholesale Sports has them listed for..." comments because Wholesale's prices on high end optics are laughable.

There is a big difference between top end optics and all the rest. After I damaged my binos this spring and sent them off for warranty work, I really noticed the $hitty view through my backup Bushnells. If you are willing to spend the dough, you will forever be happy with your purchase most likely. That being said though, lots of (most) guys out there get by just fine with their entry level to mid grade stuff.

[BCBRAD]

Fisher Dude. Do you really believe that or you just trying to piss me off? You know that KOWA spotters are consistently ranked among the best in the world, with their 88mm model as THE best, period. Moreover they are a little less money than the overpriced big names! Geesh lift your eyes beyond yesterday and get with it man, progress happens!

I've looked through one and i was impressed, especially the detail at long distance, maybe someday I will buy one

[hunter1993ap]

thanks for all the replies. i think i am going to get the scope. it is very nice to look through and a good price.

[Jagermeister]

To answer the original question, anything beyond say $1200-$1500 for a used one (assuming it's in great condition) is asking too much. I got mine brand new for that a year and a half ago when they changed to the new magnesium housing and the old models were being blown out. Just be patient and watch for deals. I always laugh at the "Wholesale Sports has them listed for..." comments because Wholesale's prices on high end optics are laughable.

There is a big difference between top end optics and all the rest. After I damaged my binos this spring and sent them off for warranty work, I really noticed the $hitty view through my backup Bushnells. If you are willing to spend the dough, you will forever be happy with your purchase most likely. That being said though, lots of (most) guys out there get by just fine with their entry level to mid grade stuff.I disagree with the highlighted statement. I shopped around for a Swarovski ATS 20X60 65HD. Looked at many different outlets in search of a "deal". Then one day I dropped into WSS and made the purchase. Now, why did I do that? Well, they had a deal on that the entire cost including taxes was less than the best deal I could get from any other source, in Canada or the USA, not including taxes and S&H.
The clarity of my Swarovski shines in low light conditions and also when viewing when the sunlight is more toward the front. As well, there is virtually no distortion in the peripheral area of the lense. When one compares scopes in optimal conditions, there may be no discernable difference. View in non-optimal conditions and you will see a distinct difference.
Now I know that Hermit likes to extoll the "virtues" of Kowa. Virginity is a virtue and Kowa is the virgin. There are not many using Kowa in the field except for birders and birders are not noted to climbing to the top of a mountain range and go backpacking. Kowa has to be field tested by the hardcore backpack sheep hunters to gain a broader acceptance. It's not to say that their glass is mediocre, it probably is good glass, just untested.
It brings to mind. Sony uses Zeiss lenses and proudly point to that selling feature. Why would they not be using Kowa glass in their lenses? Hmmm.

[The Hermit]

Not trying to be the antagonist, however we know that you sell the Kowa, what is the warranty like in their optics for years down the road. How do they hold up to 15 - 20 years in your pack bagging around , up and down the mountains. I have thought seriously about the Kowa - however I personally feel a little more comfortable with products that have been around for a long time. Again I'm not trying to stir the pot. I'm open to hear all comments.

Lifetime Warranty - KOWA has been in the Binocular / Sport Optics. and Medical Optics Business for around 60 Years. Happy to help, and save customers $100's, thanks.

[The Hermit]

...
Now I know that Hermit likes to extoll the "virtues" of Kowa. Virginity is a virtue and Kowa is the virgin. There are not many using Kowa in the field except for birders and birders are not noted to climbing to the top of a mountain range and go backpacking. Kowa has to be field tested by the hardcore backpack sheep hunters to gain a broader acceptance. It's not to say that their glass is mediocre, it probably is good glass, just untested.
It brings to mind. Sony uses Zeiss lenses and proudly point to that selling feature. Why would they not be using Kowa glass in their lenses? Hmmm.

To answer your question... I wunderstand that Mr HardRock of Sony has the hots for Ms Goodlooker Zeiss and visa versa!! Moreover, their parent companies apparently agree that the marriage would be good for their family pocketbooks' ... its a Harlequin Romance. Best seller of the week! Seriously though, who cares who is in bed with who as long as nobody gets hurt? Look at the auto industry to glimpse a real orgy of relationships, a virtual Bountiful partnered with the Vatican.

BTW - These days virginity as a virtue is only such in the eyes of some mothers and fathers, and a few judgmental old women! http://www.members.shaw.ca/btozer/icon_owned.gif ;-)

I'm not running down the other top optics companies at all. I've owned ALL of their top-of-the-line binoculars and know they are terrific products. My point is that they are just "products" in a competitive market. When people fail to look at competitive offerings I think they do themselves and the potential markets a dis-service in two ways. First, missed opportunity to purchase a newer better product or one that has the same quality at a better price. Second, because blind brand loyalty undermines innovation and product development it sucks for everyone except the shareholders of the big three in this case... when the market is not crowded the top firms maintain higher margins without having to increase marketing budgets at the expense of shareholder value in the effort to retain market share.

Eventually, "newcomers" (KOWA 60 year old baby apparently) provide significant innovation and/or monetary incentives to move the market. When this starts to happen the old guard, faced with new huge marketing budgets in the effort to hold ground, might sacrifice R&D and Quality, Kill their Unions? (Pat is behind this whole jack BTW LOL) I'd put my money on KOWA and Vortex to bring about that kind of sea change. Hope this makes sense, been sipping a big scotch. Cheers

[ryanb]

I use to think top end optics weren't worth the dough until I went sheep hunting. Now I know how valuable they would have been. Having said that, make sure you can afford the cost. Better to be out hunting with modest optics than stuck at work trying to pay for the spotting scope you never use (because you are at work).

[Jagermeister]

To answer your question... I wunderstand that Mr HardRock of Sony has the hots for Ms Goodlooker Zeiss and visa versa!! Moreover, their parent companies apparently agree that the marriage would be good for their family pocketbooks' ... its a Harlequin Romance. Best seller of the week! Seriously though, who cares who is in bed with who as long as nobody gets hurt? Look at the auto industry to glimpse a real orgy of relationships, a virtual Bountiful partnered with the Vatican.

BTW - These days virginity as a virtue is only such in the eyes of some mothers and fathers, and a few judgmental old women! http://www.members.shaw.ca/btozer/icon_owned.gif ;-)

I'm not running down the other top optics companies at all. I've owned ALL of their top-of-the-line binoculars and know they are terrific products. My point is that they are just "products" in a competitive market. When people fail to look at competitive offerings I think they do themselves and the potential markets a dis-service in two ways. First, missed opportunity to purchase a newer better product or one that has the same quality at a better price. Second, because blind brand loyalty undermines innovation and product development it sucks for everyone except the shareholders of the big three in this case... when the market is not crowded the top firms maintain higher margins without having to increase marketing budgets at the expense of shareholder value in the effort to retain market share.

Eventually, "newcomers" (KOWA 60 year old baby apparently) provide significant innovation and/or monetary incentives to move the market. When this starts to happen the old guard, faced with new huge marketing budgets in the effort to hold ground, might sacrifice R&D and Quality, Kill their Unions? (Pat is behind this whole jack BTW LOL) I'd put my money on KOWA and Vortex to bring about that kind of sea change. Hope this makes sense, been sipping a big scotch. Cheers
HAHAHAHA ............ http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-merv/fishing.gif

[Elkaddict]

Not trying to be the antagonist, however we know that you sell the Kowa, what is the warranty like in their optics for years down the road. How do they hold up to 15 - 20 years in your pack bagging around , up and down the mountains. I have thought seriously about the Kowa - however I personally feel a little more comfortable with products that have been around for a long time. Again I'm not trying to stir the pot. I'm open to hear all comments.

Kowa has been around for quite a while. I don't know why they haven't caught on in hunting circles so much. Go to an F Class or a T/R match and you will see a lot of Kowas on the line. IMHO they are worth serious consideration. They are among the most compact and lightest of the quality spotters, have great features (sliding sunshade, rotating tripod mount, and two stage focus for the 700 and 800 series), sport awesome glass, have a comparable warranty and are priced lower than the Euro glass. What's not to like? I guess time will tell if they stand up to years of use in a pack. There is no doubt that European glass is top notch stuff but if you do a little research you will find they are not the only ones out there. I've only had my Kowa for about a year but it has given me great service so far. If anyone is Kowa "curious" and can find their way to Maple Ridge they are welcome to come and take a look through mine {TSN 778}. Bring along a Swaro or a Leica and we can set 'em up side by side and see.:-D

Cheers


The Kowa company actually was formed in 1894 and has gradually evolved into the 5th largest trading company in all of Japan. They have recently branched out into other countries, expanding their reach and now have a huge presence in the three largest markets in the world, Europe, Asia, and the Americas.
Spotting scopes production was added to their Electronics and Optics division in 1952 and immediately became a driving force in the company., The scopes were originally designed to be utilized in shooting events and really took off in popularity in 1964 when there were used as the official spotting scope of the Tokyo Olympic Games.

[Gateholio]

Kowa scopes have very good optics. I have a Ziess spotter but if I ever need to replace it, I will certainly look at Kowa. I wouldn't be afraid of using one

[yama49]

Definitely call and talk to Plainsight Solutions. He is the one that wrote that story of his dad and him hunting stone sheep. You may remeber the phrase "you all are pussies... f*@k this mountain!". Not bad for someone qualified for a senior's hunting license...

Anyways, talk with Omer, he knows his optics and uses them all. Ask him what he thinks, having looked through Zeiss, Swarovski, and Leica side by side on the same sitting. His prices are equal or better than everyone else. I bought my Swarovski EL's from him last year, he had no problem taking the top three outside to let me spend an hour looking through them all as the light faded. It is amazing the clarity of these high end binos as the light fades. I honestly felt sad comparing them with my Bushnell Legends. I would give him the courtesy of a call, and check out his trader ratings on candiangunnutz.


I agree omer knows his optics, and has the best prices on the top end optics peroid...

[Spitzer]

I'll put my Kowa TSN774 up against Swaro 65hd anyday if anyone wants to try in my area.

[yama49]

I'll put my Kowa TSN774 up against Swaro 65hd anyday if anyone wants to try in my area.

Thats closer to the swaro 80 than 65, but i would do it for fun.. I have the 65, and live in SA.

[The Hermit]

Put it up against the Swaro 80 hahahaha go for it, you will be wanting to sell your Swaro quick! Then try the KOWA 88 and cry me a river!

[Jagermeister]

The Kowa 774 and for that matter, the 660 weigh more than either the Swaro 65HD or 80HD. Neither Kowas can focus at the minimum distance that the 65HD can. The only positive that I can see that the Kowa's have is a shorter length, 304mm compared to 325mm for the 65HD but then both exceed the weight of the 65HD and for that matter, the 80HD. So why are the Kowas heavier, some where they have too much mass, probably in their focusing mechanisms?

[The Hermit]

No the Kowa uses pure Flourite Lens instead of glass with a Flourite coating. Gram counters! ;-)

[yama49]

Put it up against the Swaro 80 hahahaha go for it, you will be wanting to sell your Swaro quick! Then try the KOWA 88 and cry me a river!

Cry me a river.. Are u serious? All i said was for comparsion reasons 77mm is closer to 80mm, so lets test the 66 to the 65 make sense to u? Or is ur brain to wrapped up in selling kowa? And no i wont being selling my swaro anytime soon, im quite happy with it.

[The Hermit]

Sorry was just having fun with the naysayer brand crazy consumers... The Swarovski 65 would be nicer than the Kowa 66 for sure but the 66 is half the price and not billed as a premium top of class scope. Whereas the Kowa 77 will stand against the Swarovski 80 in any light, and the Kowa 88 is a clear winner at $hundreds less money which is why after doing the side by side some folks might regret their Swarovski purchase and indeed cry me a river! Just trying to help... And yeah sell a few scopes!

[todbartell]

I've tested Kowa when some guy in Alberta who was their sales rep sent me some samples. Not bad but compared to Swarvo it was junk. But hey Im not an old man maybe if your vision is bad the difference cant be noticed :mrgreen:

[Fisher-Dude]

Fisher Dude. Do you really believe that or you just trying to piss me off? You know that KOWA spotters are consistently ranked among the best in the world, with their 88mm model as THE best, period. Moreover they are a little less money than the overpriced big names! Geesh lift your eyes beyond yesterday and get with it man, progress happens!


Kowa-Bunga!

http://static.flickr.com/118/297569211_5f656a8b28_z.jpg

[goinghunting]

The Hermit - I'm looking at buying a swarovski right now. My brother has one that we've been using for sheep hunting for the last couple years and its made my leupold not even worth packing. I'm not sure were your based out of but I live in the west kootenays and If you have a way I could try one of these kowa's next to my brothers swarovski I would consider it depending how it performs? I looked on the kowa website and the TSN663 with the angled eye piece and 20-60 objective lens would interest me, the other models seem way to heavy compared to the swaro.

[The Hermit]

A hahahah F-D too funny but she isn't Japanese is she? And Mark "junk" really? LOL Is it Swaro, Leica, or Ziess that you sell in addition to the Bushnell line of quality optics? Snarf ;-)

[goinghunting]

A hahahah F-D too funny but she isn't Japanese is she? And Mark "junk" really? LOL Is it Swaro, Leica, or Ziess that you sell in addition to the Bushnell line of quality optics? Snarf ;-)



The Hermit - I'm looking at buying a swarovski right now. My brother has one that we've been using for sheep hunting for the last couple years and its made my leupold not even worth packing. I'm not sure were your based out of but I live in the west kootenays and If you have a way I could try one of these kowa's next to my brothers swarovski I would consider it depending how it performs? I looked on the kowa website and the TSN663 with the angled eye piece and 20-60 objective lens would interest me, the other models seem way to heavy compared to the swaro.

[The Hermit]

GoingHunting - thanks for taking a look. The KOWA 660 Prominar series is a great choice for the budget conscious hunter, fabulous value for money product that is better compared to the Vortex Razor. Having said that, you can't expect to reasonably compare a $1450 scope to the Swarovski at $2,600 can you?

The 77mm HD glass in the Kowa will of course cost a few ounces but IMHO the improved optical quality and brightness over the Swarovski is well worth it, especially when you will also save about $400 of dollars.


There is a dealer in Kamloops that would be the closest to you, or I will be at the WSSBC Convention with all the toys for you to check out. Cheers

[yama49]

HERMIT- I will take a look through your gear at the wssbc...

Goinghunting- im more than impressed with my 65hd, i have read great things about the kowa 77 and 88, but there 66 doesnt compare on all the reviews i have read..

[2x4x16]

Kowa has been around for quite a while. I don't know why they haven't caught on in hunting circles so much. Go to an F Class or a T/R match and you will see a lot of Kowas on the line. IMHO they are worth serious consideration. They are among the most compact and lightest of the quality spotters, have great features (sliding sunshade, rotating tripod mount, and two stage focus for the 700 and 800 series), sport awesome glass, have a comparable warranty and are priced lower than the Euro glass. What's not to like? I guess time will tell if they stand up to years of use in a pack. There is no doubt that European glass is top notch stuff but if you do a little research you will find they are not the only ones out there. I've only had my Kowa for about a year but it has given me great service so far. If anyone is Kowa "curious" and can find their way to Maple Ridge they are welcome to come and take a look through mine {TSN 778}. Bring along a Swaro or a Leica and we can set 'em up side by side and see.:-D

Cheers

Thanks for the offer - I'm in Coquitlam , and will most likely take you up on you offer!

[Weatherby Fan]

I have also been looking at the Swarovski HD 65mm and 80mm just curious if anyone can sway me one way or the other for weight and or light gathering at dawn or dusk,is the larger objective lens really worth the extra weight in your backpack ??
WF

[300rum700]

[QUOTE=The Hermit;1041476]GoingHunting - thanks for taking a look. The KOWA 660 Prominar series is a great choice for the budget conscious hunter, fabulous value for money product that is better compared to the Vortex Razor. Having said that, you can't expect to reasonably compare a $1450 scope to the Swarovski at $2,600 can you?

So its like a Bushnell-Leupold, Leupold-Swarovski type comparison? I think I get the picture now thanks for clearing it up.

[The Hermit]

[QUOTE=The Hermit;1041476]GoingHunting - thanks for taking a look. The KOWA 660 Prominar series is a great choice for the budget conscious hunter, fabulous value for money product that is better compared to the Vortex Razor. Having said that, you can't expect to reasonably compare a $1450 scope to the Swarovski at $2,600 can you?

So its like a Bushnell-Leupold, Leupold-Swarovski type comparison? I think I get the picture now thanks for clearing it up.

Yep exactly, but just to be crystal clear, the KOWA 770 series are comparable to the Swaro 65 and 80 and the KOWA 880 series is on the top of the heap!

[Elkaddict]

Thanks for the offer - I'm in Coquitlam , and will most likely take you up on you offer!

No problem, just shoot me a pm sometime.


I have also been looking at the Swarovski HD 65mm and 80mm just curious if anyone can sway me one way or the other for weight and or light gathering at dawn or dusk,is the larger objective lens really worth the extra weight in your backpack ??
WF

WF my last scope was a straight 60mm Nikon Fieldscope lllED, and it was much handier to throw in my pack than my angled 77mm Kowa. I guess it depends on the size of your pack and how you hunt. If you are spending a lot of time in the alpine you might want a lighter smaller scope. That being said, I looked up the specs of both the Swaro and the Kowa and the 65mm Swaro is actually a 1/4" longer than the Kowa so you probably aren't going to save a lot of room. You will however save yourself .6lb. of weight (80mm Swaro 1.5" longer and roughly same weight as the Kowa). If you are glassing sheep or goats in the open in good light you won't miss a larger objective. If you are trying to pick out the sixth point of an elk at very first or last light on the edge of dark timber you will appreciate the fact that you can use max magnification until virtually all the light is gone. My 60mm scope had to be dialed back for the last 15 or 20 min. light or the image was too dark. 65mm-80mm, I don't know if you would see so much of a difference. Hope this helps. Cheers.

[358mag]

Buy the Swaro and you'll be happy forever. Same with Zeiss and Leica. The rest do not compare at all.

I have the 20-60 X 65HD Swaro and it's great. Sold my old Leupy to a friend, who this year sold the Leupy and had to buy a Swaro for himself after looking thru mine.
What type of window mount do you recommend for your Swaro ???? cause I know you don't use a Tripod !!!!!!!! LOL
Merry Christmas F-D and a Happy New Year Too
Cheers

[Fisher-Dude]

What type of window mount do you recommend for your Swaro ???? cause I know you don't use a Tripod !!!!!!!! LOL
Merry Christmas F-D and a Happy New Year Too
Cheers


The window mount stays on the Swaro all the time! The key is to buy a heavy diesel truck so that the wind doesn't rock it in those big clearcuts while you glass the points on dink bucks, looking for a legal one! I actually used the tripod a few times this year - had to sprint across a block back to the truck to get it after I spotted a hog doe a coupla kms away with the binos! Good optics saved me a helluva hike up the mountain only to be disappointed by a flat top!

Hope you have a good holiday season too 358! I put in a good word with Santa for you. :wink:

[Elkaddict]

The Kowa 774 and for that matter, the 660 weigh more than either the Swaro 65HD or 80HD. Neither Kowas can focus at the minimum distance that the 65HD can. The only positive that I can see that the Kowa's have is a shorter length, 304mm compared to 325mm for the 65HD but then both exceed the weight of the 65HD and for that matter, the 80HD. So why are the Kowas heavier, some where they have too much mass, probably in their focusing mechanisms?

Pretty weak argument Jm. According to the info I pulled off their websites, and comparing apples to apples. The Kowa 663 is shorter than the Swaro 65 HD. Funny the Kowa is heavier in gm. but lighter in oz., how does that work?:-D (both angled scopes). The 773 is 1.5" shorter than the Swaro 80 (and still shorter than the 65), but a whopping 1.7 oz heavier. You are absolutely correct, the Swaro minimum focus distances is shorter for both comparos. Something I'll have to remember when I need to focus my 60X spotter down to less than 16 ft!

But,.... if you are going to compare scopes you might as well keep on going and take a look at the eyepieces. The numbers for the 660 vs. the 65 are virtually identical for exit pupil and twighlight factor. The 65 has an edge over the 660 on eye relief and FOV. Because it seems the Swaro 65 uses the same eyepiece as the 80 my guess is the 65 would give a better image than the 660 because of the slightly smaller eyepiece on the 660. Variable magnification eyepieces seem to be the limiting factor for smaller objective scopes and the Swaro has a bigger eyepiece.

Now, if you compare the 773 to the 80HD you will find the Kowa has as good or better numbers than the Swaro across the board leading one to believe the Kowa could have as good or better image?? I don't know, I have never compared them side by side. I do know my Kowa 773 gives me exceptional results. If you read reviews on the top end Kowa scopes they rank right up there, as good or better than all three Euro scopes, so I have no reason to believe different.

I am not saying The Big Three are not exceptional glass. I am not saying the Kowa are superior. I am merely saying that anyone considering buying a scope should consider looking around and making an informed decision before you plunk down your hard earned cash instead of blindly believing the "if it's not Euro glass, it's junk" mantra. There are some excellent scopes out there that are not made in Europe and have excellent optics and better price points than European glass.

Merry Christmas everyone!!!

[hunter1993ap]

thanks for all the responses. just bought the scope and i'm glad i did!!!

[brenden]

If you have ever been to a high-power rifle competition of any discipline you have likely seen lineups of big Kowa scopes. I have looked through several of them including 65mm models carried by clients I have taken out and they are superb. I mean every bit as good optically as anything else. I have Swaro stuff but I would have no issue replacing any of it with equivalent Kowa gear. It is a well established, reputable company that produces world class stuff.

Ps: I don't know this hermit character from as hole in the ground either.

[.330 Dakota]

Buy the Swaro and you'll be happy forever. Same with Zeiss and Leica. The rest do not compare at all.

I have the 20-60 X 65HD Swaro and it's great. Sold my old Leupy to a friend, who this year sold the Leupy and had to buy a Swaro for himself after looking thru mine.

Ya that "looking thru a friends scope thing" can really get you into trouble,,,I personaly use a Nikon and compared to a buddies Zeiss during daylight,,,the Nikon looks clearer and sharper. It could be a different story in the twilight hours however. Now on the other side of that I made the mistake of looking through another buddies Swaro rifle scope at dusk,,,made my Loopy look sad indeed,,,thats gonna cost me...lol