Mulw deer population????

[jordan klasner]

just got back from a week of mule deer around the east kootenay and it was terrible and all ive heard from ppl that it was terrble too! just wondering if anyone else had any luck and what the problem was? over killing, wolf, cougar, just a tight year? or am i that piss poor of a hunter? thanks!
jordan kasner

[Elkaholic]

I personally think that they are in decline around here. I have noticed over the past 3-4 years my mule deer haunts have become over run with WT's and I notice very few mule deer. Even on my trail cams that have bait on them and I normally get muleys coming to it. I don't know why its happening but it seems to me that something is up.

[Andrews]

I havent been out enough this year to say personally unfotunately - some friends who, however, have been out every weekend since Sept 1st seem to share your opinion.

[goatdancer]

Could be a variety of reasons. I haven't hunted in the EK for many years now so I have no first hand observations. However, I have found over the years that personal observations may not be a true indicator of actual animal numbers unless one is in the bush 7 days a week. Creatures move around a lot, weather coditions change, all kinds of variables affect actual sightings. Hopefully our wildlife manangers have a better idea of what is going on out there by using more scientific methods, but seeing the state of their budgets, I seriously doubt it.

[sawmill]

They never recovered from the terrible winter in 98.The ones that did were fed in town and now that`s the new range.I see some does but not many and almost no bucks untill after mid Nov.Season closes on Nov.15 so ..................shitty.Some get taken but not at all what it was.Whities don`t push them out,look up to Dawson Creek and Chetwyn,lots of both there.That winter wiped out whole populations of mulies,they don`t seem to bounce as well as elk and whities.

[sawmill]

By the way,I could have saved you a lot of time and money and so could all the other locals on this site.Next time,call ahead.Sorry your trip sucked.That`s lousy.

[broke]

We had so much snow up north last year and it stayed so long that it must have impacted the deer populations. Also, there seems to be a lot of wolves and bears these days. Almost everyone I've talked to this fall has either heard or seen wolves while hunting this fall.

[bigben]

what mule deer we have muley deer in the east kootenay can someone please send me a pic or two of a muley buck other than the ones in town ........our mule deer population is in serious trouble opeinging up youth season to any buck and then another month any buck .......come on people sometimes it time to wake up and smell the coffee .................. we have a mule deer crisis in our valley ...................... and with the state of the economy and all its not how we are to help our wildlife its how can we suck another $$$$$$$$$$$$ out of them ,,,,,,,,,,,,my two cents worth

[Bistchen]

From where my hunts have led me this year, Region 3,5 and 8 had very healthy numbers of mule deer. I havent been in region 4 for a long time, so I persoanlly dont know. It seems a lot of Whities are being taken from region 4.

[REMINGTON JIM]

just got back from a week of mule deer around the east kootenay and it was terrible and all ive heard from ppl that it was terrble too! just wondering if anyone else had any luck and what the problem was? over killing, wolf, cougar, just a tight year? or am i that piss poor of a hunter? thanks!
jordan kasner

Jordan - how many diff mule deer did you see ? and how many were bucks ? - how many does ? also did you see any or many whitetails and again how many bucks ? - does ? What area were you huntin ? Thks Jim

[6616]

Combination of all the above I think: Competition from WTD, elk also have a lot of forage overlap with mule deer and we've got lots of elk. Lots of predators, high predator populations driven by high WTD and elk populations (mule deer are more vulnerable to predation). Recovery from the 96/97 die-off did not bring them back to previous pre-96 levels - that might be habitat related since pre-96 levels were probably above habitat carrying capacity. I really don't think the youth season or the any buck season has a lot to do with it, hasn't been around long enough and the slow recovery has been evident well before those came on line. Besides shooting bucks might lower the buck/doe ratio but it shouldn't cause a population decline because it does not effect reproduction. I'm thinking competition with other ungulates and predators are the main reasons. I also think hunting is more difficult and game is simply harder to find when predator populations are high, they're spooked and sticking to the thick stuff. Also I don't really think there was enough snow to push them down out of the mid-elevations (until this morning) so some people may be looking in the wrong places. I am reluctant to admit there's an actual crisis situation just yet, hope I'm right.

[bigben]

Combination of all the above I think: Competition from WTD, elk also have a lot of forage overlap with mule deer and we've got lots of elk. Lots of predators, high predator populations driven by high WTD and elk populations (mule deer are more vulnerable to predation). Recovery from the 96/97 die-off did not bring them back to previous pre-96 levels - that might be habitat related since pre-96 levels were probably above habitat carrying capacity. I really don't think the youth season or the any buck season has a lot to do with it, hasn't been around long enough and the slow recovery has been evident well before those came on line. Besides shooting bucks might lower the buck/doe ratio but it shouldn't cause a population decline because it does not effect reproduction. I'm thinking competition with other ungulates and predators are the main reasons. I also think hunting is more difficult and game is simply harder to find when predator populations are high, they're spooked and sticking to the thick stuff. Also I don't really think there was enough snow to push them down out of the mid-elevations (until this morning) so some people may be looking in the wrong places. I am reluctant to admit there's an actual crisis situation just yet, hope I'm right.

Me too let me tell you it has changed and I go into areas that I could pick the size of the buck I wanted now I am lucky to see a four point to enjoy a hunt with I hope your right but my senses tell me we have a problem with the muley population

[ThinAir]

Mulw deer are very rare...

[Fisher-Dude]

........our mule deer population is in serious trouble opeinging up youth season to any buck and then another month any buck .......come on people sometimes it time to wake up and smell the coffee .................. we have a mule deer crisis in our valley ...................... and with the state of the economy and all its not how we are to help our wildlife its how can we suck another $$$$$$$$$$$$ out of them ,,,,,,,,,,,,my two cents worth


100% incorrect. Harvest will NEVER affect mule deer population levels unless we get below 5 bucks to 100 does. We manage for a minimum of 20 bucks : 100 does with the seasons we currently have. There are no populations below 5 : 100 in the EK. Not even close!

People that spew this bullshit about how hunting affects deer populations really are their own worst enemies. To slam a season that has been in place for a single season without the science to back it up is harming your future ability to hunt anything, at all.

[happyhunter]

100% incorrect. Harvest will NEVER affect mule deer population levels unless we get below 5 bucks to 100 does. We manage for a minimum of 20 bucks : 100 does with the seasons we currently have. There are no populations below 5 : 100 in the EK. Not even close!

People that spew this bullshit about how hunting affects deer populations really are their own worst enemies. To slam a season that has been in place for a single season without the science to back it up is harming your future ability to hunt anything, at all.

What do you believe is causing the decline?

[skibum]

Should take up predator hunting

[bigben]

What do you believe is causing the decline?

Exactly what he said FISHER DUDE I don t understand your ability to not understand what a hunter sees and experience in the woods ....you have a theory that paper trail is the gospel of all things that is know to man in this case being the hunting scenario ,,,,,,,,I have many friends in the business being trappers and hunter s,,,,houndsman and all round good friends that have been hunting this valley for years and have experienced decline in the mule populations and in some cases are not finding the animals as they once where in the earlier years ................. I would like to base my theory on hands on experience and not on scientific data that always skews the facts that it goes on probability and average standard deviation ......its funny that where I work the computer is always different then the hand held meter and when it goes to be processed that 90 per cent of the time the hand held meter is right .....so with this in mind I am saying that our mule deer population has declined and it is not where it used to be I am genuinely concerned about it and trying to shed some light on it and it obvious because I am hearing the same thing in the circle of hunters that a hunt with ........... just my two cents worth

[6616]

Exactly what he said FISHER DUDE I don t understand your ability to not understand what a hunter sees and experience in the woods ....you have a theory that paper trail is the gospel of all things that is know to man in this case being the hunting scenario ,,,,,,,,I have many friends in the business being trappers and hunter s,,,,houndsman and all round good friends that have been hunting this valley for years and have experienced decline in the mule populations and in some cases are not finding the animals as they once where in the earlier years ................. I would like to base my theory on hands on experience and not on scientific data that always skews the facts that it goes on probability and average standard deviation ......its funny that where I work the computer is always different then the hand held meter and when it goes to be processed that 90 per cent of the time the hand held meter is right .....so with this in mind I am saying that our mule deer population has declined and it is not where it used to be I am genuinely concerned about it and trying to shed some light on it and it obvious because I am hearing the same thing in the circle of hunters that a hunt with ........... just my two cents worth

Don't get the idea that F&W stats are computer generated BS because they're not. They also are based on first hand actual sightings like you rely on. Carryover counts with age classifications are done regularily and the last few years F&W in Cranbrook has been doing post-harvest deer composition aerial surveys to monitor buck/doe and fawn/doe ratios. The data gathered is based on actual survey sightings by trained professionals.

I'm not real sure there actually has been a major decline since the recovery period following the '96/'97 die-off. Yes I agee, the mule deer population never did recover or stabilize at the same levels as pre-1996, we are all aware of that, but that is likely related to habitat and competition, and if it's habitat related the herd would have stabilized at a lower level, and we may never see those pre-1996 numbers again. I still believe that when WTD and elk populations cycle upwards MD populations are going to cycle downwards and visa-versa because they are the weakest competitors of the three, and this will be accelerated when predator populations are high, MD will suffer the most because they are the most vulnerable to predation.

Short-term, last winter was pretty rough, especially in the northen part of the region and I'd imagine there was somewhat of a a die-off, but it certainly wasn't a significant die-off like the '96/'97 die-off, and the effects should be short-term unless we have a repeat of those conditions again this winter. If we have a repeat or two or three bad winters in a row there will be real cause for concern.

We'd all like to see more mule deer, but we seem to disagee on how to get there, but the basic facts of wildlife biology cannot be ignored, and blaming the current situation on the youth and/or any buck hunt is ignoring those basic facts, buck harvest will not effect reproduction rates until there is a sperm shortage. Winter fawn survival is the key element and buck harvest won't effect that either. Fawn survival is directly related to predation levels and winter weather conditions. The only way harvest will effect reproduction is by harvesting females. Lack of growth in a herd is directly related to a lack of recruitment and low recruitment rates are directly related to low fawn survival rates and/or adult female mortaility.

[happyhunter]

I truly believe they are in decline and I believe that that's because of increased pressure from the predators. As far as fawn survival rates goes that should concern the bios (if they are seeing the same as me) which is only a couple of fawns per 15-20 does. If theres no shortage of bucks, if these does are all getting bred then whats happening to these fawns? Wolves, BB, cougars, coyotes is what. Just how high the pred populations are right now is easy to see as their tracks are in the snow all over the place.

[BCrams]

Its a catch 22 scenario bigben and in laymans terms:

If you want more mule deer ...... elk and whitetail deer numbers need to be cut way back. Do you support drastic reductions in elk and whitetail numbers with more liberal seasons? Of course, habitat restoration at the same time would be fanastic for mule deer.

Competition by elk and whitetail deer on available habitat do put a damper on mule deer numbers.

I'd say with the existing good mule deer buck:doe ratio's and given the existing elk / whitetail deer population and habitat conditions, mule deer are doing quite well. Of course if you all band together and say you want more mule deer roaming around, you need to realize elk and whitetail deer really need to come down in numbers and measures can be put in place to allow for that along with habitat work.

But it appears many want their cake and eat it too. Thats the social problem when it comes to whining about more liberal elk and whitetail seasons and then whine about mule deer numbers. Its a give / take. What do you want? Less elk / whitetail and more mule deer or more elk / whitetail and less mule deer?

[GoatGuy]

Buddy was seeing 50+ mule deer every day - 7-12 bucks/day. One of our spots has gotten pretty quiet over the past 4 years which seems fo coincide with wolves moving in.

Biggest problem in the ek is habitat. Look atthe pics from the 40s50s or even the 80s and the effect of fire suppression becomes very apparent.

[budismyhorse]

same with elk......all year we have been hearing about how few elk were around yadayada...........now, they are standing in the winter range IN FORCE. I've seen more elk this year post season than any time I can remember so what now?

So who knows......I'd like to wait until the mule deer flight is completed this year before I get excited about what is missing from 2011.

[6616]

Biggest problem in the ek is habitat. Look at the pics from the 40s50s or even the 80s and the effect of fire suppression becomes very apparent.

I have been hunting mule deer in the EK for nearly 60 years, and I can say without any thread of doubt that dozens and dozens of the best mid-elevation transitional ranges I used to hunt which were literally crawling with mule deer 25 years ago are now thick stands of timber in some places with over 10,000 stems per Ha (what we call dog hair in the eco-system restoration world). These used to be semi-open stands of mixed conifer and deciduous with lots of browse species present. No mulies there now, the reason is obvious.

2005 aerial photo of old Kimberley airport:
http://www.trenchsociety.com/setup/content/Airport_2005.jpg

1951 photo of old Kimberley airport:
http://www.trenchsociety.com/setup/content/Airport_1951.jpg

[Looking_4_Jerky]

I have lurked and participated in discussions on various hunting websites for the better part of a decade. The single most evident pattern I have noticed is when people fail to have good hunting success they jump on the “too many predators” train.

I am not suggesting that some areas are not experiencing high predator numbers, but just considering a few things:
1) predator/prey oscillations are normal and that even though we may be at a high point in the predator cycle does not mean the numbers are out of the ordinary
2) There are various reasons why hunters are not successful, and they are not always related to depressed populations

I cannot say that the east Koots is not experiencing high predation, but because we hear it all the time it’s beginning to sound like a scapegoat for our inability to adjust for the current conditions, regardless of where we’re hunting.

[BCrams]

Too much of this mentality as well didn't help either.....:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/Smokey3.jpg

http://www.nps.gov/fire/images/photos/timeline/392_nps_timelineimages_repa-1942c.jpg

[Everett]

Well I didn't shoot a MD this year only saw two 4 points but to be honest I didn't try very hard (full freezer) was out with a couple rookies on the 14th and we saw upwards of 80 MD does between us and about 10 dink bucks. From what I can see the deer stayed tight in the timber this year as there was lots of feed for them there. Lots of big deer rolling into town today with the snow saw two pigs this afternoon.

[Ol'Toyo]

I can tell you for sure that Region 8 has a healthy mule deer population. I'm really beginning to wonder about the whitetail population here though. I see on average ten times more MD's than WT's.

[Fisher-Dude]

Exactly what he said FISHER DUDE I don t understand your ability to not understand what a hunter sees and experience in the woods ....you have a theory that paper trail is the gospel of all things that is know to man in this case being the hunting scenario ,,,,,,,,I have many friends in the business being trappers and hunter s,,,,houndsman and all round good friends that have been hunting this valley for years and have experienced decline in the mule populations and in some cases are not finding the animals as they once where in the earlier years ................. I would like to base my theory on hands on experience and not on scientific data that always skews the facts that it goes on probability and average standard deviation ......its funny that where I work the computer is always different then the hand held meter and when it goes to be processed that 90 per cent of the time the hand held meter is right .....so with this in mind I am saying that our mule deer population has declined and it is not where it used to be I am genuinely concerned about it and trying to shed some light on it and it obvious because I am hearing the same thing in the circle of hunters that a hunt with ........... just my two cents worth


How can you say we're shooting them all if there are none to shoot? You've got to form your hypothesis then be consistent in your argument, Ben. :wink:

Listen to what 6616 and BCRams and Goat Guy are telling you. They work closely with mule deer experts and have the facts. Listening to folklore will not give you the solution to what you perceive as a problem. Just stick to the facts, and ignore the boys at Tim Hortons.

I have hunted the EK for over 35 years now. I have never seen the densities of whitetails that we now have. The landscape has changed and it favours whitetails moreso than mulies.

We need to do habitat work, that's a given. But as soon as I suggest that we knock back the WT or elk populations, the same guys on here that scream about mule deer seasons also scream about our proposals to open access and liberalize WT and elk seasons. I know you "want it all", but you can't have it all. You've got to make choices, and some of them are mutually exclusive. You can't expect to see fields with 200 elk, 200 WT, and 200 MD co-existing when the carrying capacity of that field is half that.

Something's gotta give. Make your choices.

[Husky7mm]

MULE DEER DEATH BY A THOUSAND CUTS.
What you are seeing is the effects from years and years of long liberal seasons. When it was 4 point only literally 80-90% of the legal bucks where harvested every year. Now that there is an any buck season the harvest is more spread out but I would put money down the harvest has increased. In Unit 4-3 last year the buck to doe ratio was 5 bucks/ hundred does. THAT'S A PROBLEM!!!!! Its a little misleading talking about bucks and bulls per hundred does/ cows. People are lead to believe they actually counted hundreds of deer, and moose for that matter. Only the elk are counted in hundred and hundreds
Heres a fact. Mule deer and WT and elk dont compete for the same food. They are mostly interested in different feed. Mule deer also can winter considerably high than elk or WT. I scout year round and some mulies winter up near the goats. What is with all this BS about not enough habit for all three. The forest and grass lands are littered with feed right from the bottom of the valleys to the rocks. Deer even eat conifers. Feed is everywhere. You dont need open grass lands and sage brush to winter mule deer.
The problem is predation!!!! By man and wolves and cougars ect..... Literally thousand of hunters are pounding the kootenays every hunting season looking for an elk to bring home and the deer, especially the mule deer pay the price for the lack of many hunters success at elk. Elk respond very well to presure, mule deer bucks dont live long enough to. There simply is not enough mule deer buck to go around for the amount of hunters that actually hunt here. It starts on sept 1 when any one under 17 with a gun and anyone with a bow or cross bow can shoot any buck they like, the weather nice and the deer just stand there in the cuts, even some decent 4 points. Easy, too easy. Thats what people want right "opportunity". Then it increases as elk season gets into full swing and it doesnt end until half way though the rut when the snow pushes the last few out of the limited acces areas. Literally 1000's of hunters hammering on a few 100 bucks. Ya thats right a few 100 bucks!!
Add a pack of wolves to every valley and half a dozen cougars. Bingo bango mule deer are not going anywhere, but slowly down. Thats a fact. You will all see the changes will come. Many hunters would shoot the last deer on the mountain just to have something to show for there efforts. This has to stop. The changes will come or the Mulies in the EK will go the way of the caribou. Mule deer death by a thousand cuts. SO STOP CUTTING THEM! Be a responsible hunter and demand a change. The mule deer pays the price for the liberal seasons of the EK.

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

Oh my god.Sit back crack a cold one and enjoy the show.

[Everett]

Wow I have read some crap on HBC but this has to make the top ten



MULE DEER DEATH BY A THOUSAND CUTS.
What you are seeing is the effects from years and years of long liberal seasons. When it was 4 point only literally 80-90% of the legal bucks where harvested every year. Now that there is an any buck season the harvest is more spread out but I would put money down the harvest has increased. In Unit 4-3 last year the buck to doe ratio was 5 bucks/ hundred does. THAT'S A PROBLEM!!!!! Its a little misleading talking about bucks and bulls per hundred does/ cows. People are lead to believe they actually counted hundreds of deer, and moose for that matter. Only the elk are counted in hundred and hundreds
Heres a fact. Mule deer and WT and elk dont compete for the same food. They are mostly interested in different feed. Mule deer also can winter considerably high than elk or WT. I scout year round and some mulies winter up near the goats. What is with all this BS about not enough habit for all three. The forest and grass lands are littered with feed right from the bottom of the valleys to the rocks. Deer even eat conifers. Feed is everywhere. You dont need open grass lands and sage brush to winter mule deer.
The problem is predation!!!! By man and wolves and cougars ect..... Literally thousand of hunters are pounding the kootenays every hunting season looking for an elk to bring home and the deer, especially the mule deer pay the price for the lack of many hunters success at elk. Elk respond very well to presure, mule deer bucks dont live long enough to. There simply is not enough mule deer buck to go around for the amount of hunters that actually hunt here. It starts on sept 1 when any one under 17 with a gun and anyone with a bow or cross bow can shoot any buck they like, the weather nice and the deer just stand there in the cuts, even some decent 4 points. Easy, too easy. Thats what people want right "opportunity". Then it increases as elk season gets into full swing and it doesnt end until half way though the rut when the snow pushes the last few out of the limited acces areas. Literally 1000's of hunters hammering on a few 100 bucks. Ya thats right a few 100 bucks!!
Add a pack of wolves to every valley and half a dozen cougars. Bingo bango mule deer are not going anywhere, but slowly down. Thats a fact. You will all see the changes will come. Many hunters would shoot the last deer on the mountain just to have something to show for there efforts. This has to stop. The changes will come or the Mulies in the EK will go the way of the caribou. Mule deer death by a thousand cuts. SO STOP CUTTING THEM! Be a responsible hunter and demand a change. The mule deer pays the price for the liberal seasons of the EK.

[GoatGuy]

MULE DEER DEATH BY A THOUSAND CUTS.
What you are seeing is the effects from years and years of long liberal seasons. When it was 4 point only literally 80-90% of the legal bucks where harvested every year. Now that there is an any buck season the harvest is more spread out but I would put money down the harvest has increased. In Unit 4-3 last year the buck to doe ratio was 5 bucks/ hundred does. THAT'S A PROBLEM!!!!! Its a little misleading talking about bucks and bulls per hundred does/ cows. People are lead to believe they actually counted hundreds of deer, and moose for that matter. Only the elk are counted in hundred and hundreds
Heres a fact. Mule deer and WT and elk dont compete for the same food. They are mostly interested in different feed. Mule deer also can winter considerably high than elk or WT. I scout year round and some mulies winter up near the goats. What is with all this BS about not enough habit for all three. The forest and grass lands are littered with feed right from the bottom of the valleys to the rocks. Deer even eat conifers. Feed is everywhere. You dont need open grass lands and sage brush to winter mule deer.
The problem is predation!!!! By man and wolves and cougars ect..... Literally thousand of hunters are pounding the kootenays every hunting season looking for an elk to bring home and the deer, especially the mule deer pay the price for the lack of many hunters success at elk. Elk respond very well to presure, mule deer bucks dont live long enough to. There simply is not enough mule deer buck to go around for the amount of hunters that actually hunt here. It starts on sept 1 when any one under 17 with a gun and anyone with a bow or cross bow can shoot any buck they like, the weather nice and the deer just stand there in the cuts, even some decent 4 points. Easy, too easy. Thats what people want right "opportunity". Then it increases as elk season gets into full swing and it doesnt end until half way though the rut when the snow pushes the last few out of the limited acces areas. Literally 1000's of hunters hammering on a few 100 bucks. Ya thats right a few 100 bucks!!
Add a pack of wolves to every valley and half a dozen cougars. Bingo bango mule deer are not going anywhere, but slowly down. Thats a fact. You will all see the changes will come. Many hunters would shoot the last deer on the mountain just to have something to show for there efforts. This has to stop. The changes will come or the Mulies in the EK will go the way of the caribou. Mule deer death by a thousand cuts. SO STOP CUTTING THEM! Be a responsible hunter and demand a change. The mule deer pays the price for the liberal seasons of the EK.

This is getting out there even for the internet. The comments about habitat are insane. Anyways here's the proper information not something off a roll of toilet paper.

When it comes to buck:doe ratios in an un-hunted population you're going to end up with about 66:100, very light hunting 30-50:100, moderate hunting 10-30:100 and heavy hunting pressure would be less than 10:100.

Here's the readers digest for the 2009/10 flights for mule deer in the EK:



"Snow conditions were poor in Creston but excellent in the East Kootenay during surveys. We
observed 146 mule deer in MUs 4-06 and 4-07 (88 does, 36 fawns, 17 class II bucks and 5 class
III bucks) in 222 minutes survey time. Buck ratios of 23:100 does (90% CI: 3-44) were estimated
for these MUs using the mule deer model. We observed 238 mule deer in MU 4-21 (110 does,
34 fawns, 40 class II bucks and 8 class III bucks) in 155 minutes survey time and estimated ratios
of 40 bucks:100 does (CI: 29-46). A total of 183 does, 58 fawns, 30 class II bucks and 17 class III
bucks were observed in MU 4-22. Survey time was also 155 minutes. Estimated buck ratios
were 32:100 does (CI: 16-28). We observed the most mule deer in MU 4-02 (183 does, 58
fawns, 30 class II bucks and 17 class III bucks) in 325 minutes survey time, although buck ratios
were low (20:100 does [CI: 12-28]). Overall buck ratios for East Kootenay MU’s combined were
29:100 does (CI: 14-44). Estimated fawn ratios were slightly higher in the Creston area (45
fawns:100 does) than the East Kootenay (29-34 fawns:100 does), although confidence intervals
overlapped for all areas.
."


Readers digest for last December's flights... done by some Stent guy?.......:mrgreen::-D

"We observed 842 mule deer, including 514 does, 157 fawns, 34 ≥4-point bucks and 115 <4-point
bucks over 12 hours and 45 minutes survey time. Raw buck:doe ratios (no sightability correction)
were 33:100 in MUs 4-06 and 4-07 combined (90% CI: 22-39), 23:100 in MU 4-21 (CI: 17-30), 41:100
in MU 4-02 (CI: 34-48), 45:100 in MU 4-22 (CI: 37-52) and 5:100 in MU 4-03 (CI: 1-9). There was a
significant decrease in buck ratios from 2009/10 ratios in MU 4-21, while buck ratios increased
significantly in MU 4-02 and 4-22, although 2009/10 buck ratios were likely underestimated in the
former survey as it occurred in late December and early January when bucks are usually wintering
in bachelor groups in remote habitat and more difficult to detect. Similarly MUs 4-03, 4-06 and 4-07
were surveyed post-rut in 2010 and bucks could be underrepresented in samples from these MUs."


So there you have it. :confused:

Looks pretty darn good when you compare it to places in Regions 3,5 and 8.

[Everett]

Thanks Goatguy for putting some real numbers up.

[Weatherby Fan]

Goatguy

yes thank you for posting that info,is there somewhere we can access that info for all regions on a regular basis ?

WF

[GoatGuy]

Goatguy

yes thank you for posting that info,is there somewhere we can access that info for all regions on a regular basis ?

WF

The regions have their own websites on the government site. There is also a database on the site which you can search. Not all the reports end up public.

Don't have the links on this computer. I'm sure a quick google search will find it or someone can post it.

[budismyhorse]

GG....Are they flying again this year? I haven't spoken with TS about .

[OutWest]

Oh my god.Sit back crack a cold one and enjoy the show.

My thoughts exactly. I just cooked dinner and cracked one. This is going to get good.

[Looking_4_Jerky]

The Kootenay Wildlife managers have been particularly good about conducting regular ungulate survey flights. I don't think the other regions (at least 3, 8 and 5) have near the consistency of doing survey flights, so I doubt you'll find that info. I'm sure this is a function of budget.

In other regions the numbers are often extrapolated from data obtained through the hunter survey card responses. I have been told by a provincial biometrician that estimates from results of hunter survey cards has been compared to actual flight survey results (which are still subject to considerable source of error) and they are believed to be reasonably accurate. I don't think the guy was purposefully lying to me, but I have trouble seeing the hunter card method as being as reliable as other enumeration methods.

[Savage Man]

what mule deer we have muley deer in the east kootenay can someone please send me a pic or two of a muley buck other than the ones in town ........our mule deer population is in serious trouble opeinging up youth season to any buck and then another month any buck .......come on people sometimes it time to wake up and smell the coffee .................. we have a mule deer crisis in our valley ...................... and with the state of the economy and all its not how we are to help our wildlife its how can we suck another $$$$$$$$$$$$ out of them ,,,,,,,,,,,,my two cents worth

Very well said Enzo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Savage Man]

100% incorrect. Harvest will NEVER affect mule deer population levels unless we get below 5 bucks to 100 does. We manage for a minimum of 20 bucks : 100 does with the seasons we currently have. There are no populations below 5 : 100 in the EK. Not even close!

People that spew this bullshit about how hunting affects deer populations really are their own worst enemies. To slam a season that has been in place for a single season without the science to back it up is harming your future ability to hunt anything, at all.

Well it doesn't help a population thats is already in trouble, that combined with an over abundance of predators has us in trouble.

[Mountain Hunter]

Here's the readers digest for the 2009/10 flights for mule deer in the EK:


"Snow conditions were poor in Creston but excellent in the East Kootenay during surveys. We
observed 146 mule deer in MUs 4-06 and 4-07 (88 does, 36 fawns, 17 class II bucks and 5 class
III bucks) in 222 minutes survey time. Buck ratios of 23:100 does (90% CI: 3-44) were estimated
for these MUs using the mule deer model. We observed 238 mule deer in MU 4-21 (110 does,
34 fawns, 40 class II bucks and 8 class III bucks) in 155 minutes survey time and estimated ratios
of 40 bucks:100 does (CI: 29-46). A total of 183 does, 58 fawns, 30 class II bucks and 17 class III
bucks were observed in MU 4-22. Survey time was also 155 minutes. Estimated buck ratios
were 32:100 does (CI: 16-28). We observed the most mule deer in MU 4-02 (183 does, 58
fawns, 30 class II bucks and 17 class III bucks) in 325 minutes survey time, although buck ratios
were low (20:100 does [CI: 12-28]). Overall buck ratios for East Kootenay MU’s combined were
29:100 does (CI: 14-44). Estimated fawn ratios were slightly higher in the Creston area (45
fawns:100 does) than the East Kootenay (29-34 fawns:100 does), although confidence intervals
overlapped for all areas.
."


Readers digest for last December's flights... done by some Stent guy?.......:mrgreen::-D

"We observed 842 mule deer, including 514 does, 157 fawns, 34 ≥4-point bucks and 115 <4-point
bucks over 12 hours and 45 minutes survey time. Raw buck:doe ratios (no sightability correction)
were 33:100 in MUs 4-06 and 4-07 combined (90% CI: 22-39), 23:100 in MU 4-21 (CI: 17-30), 41:100
in MU 4-02 (CI: 34-48), 45:100 in MU 4-22 (CI: 37-52) and 5:100 in MU 4-03 (CI: 1-9). There was a
significant decrease in buck ratios from 2009/10 ratios in MU 4-21, while buck ratios increased
significantly in MU 4-02 and 4-22, although 2009/10 buck ratios were likely underestimated in the
former survey as it occurred in late December and early January when bucks are usually wintering
in bachelor groups in remote habitat and more difficult to detect. Similarly MUs 4-03, 4-06 and 4-07
were surveyed post-rut in 2010 and bucks could be underrepresented in samples from these MUs."


It's great that there is an ongoing effort to survey mule deer populations in the EK and I'm sure they covered a lot of ground during those surveys. BUT isn't it sad that they only observed ~34 bucks similar to these two over those 2 seasons of surveys? I didn't see any Class IV bucks in the summaries you provided (although the lead buck in the pic might not squeak into the Class IV range).....
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Mule_deer4.jpg
Predators may be high but there's more to it than that as others have eluded to here.

[dino]

Is it possible that the wildlife guys ever make mistakes like the DFO guys do when they count fish and predict returns? I really dont know how wildlife counts work, I just trust what the government prints but because I also work for the government so I am a little sceptical.

[6616]

Well it doesn't help a population thats is already in trouble, that combined with an over abundance of predators has us in trouble.

Too much gloom and doom, the sky is not falling.....!

[hunter1947]

I never liked what the management did when they opened up a season two years ago for any mule deer buck here in the EK my opinion the have to go back to 4 point only buck next year except for juniors or 65+ in my area and I spent 5 months in the bush this year and saw very fer mule deer in fact only a hand full..

[Savage Man]

[QUOTE=6616;1020720]Toot much gloom and doom, the sky is not falling.....![/QUOT

No but its close and we had better do something now

[Fisher-Dude]

No but its close and we had better do something now


Get out and volunteer on a winter range enhancement project then, if you want to do something now. Bitching about a hunting season that has no effect on mule deer populations isn't doing anything to help the deer, but it does turn people off who would otherwise get involved and help out where it's really needed. You need to set goals and priorities that are going to have a positive result, rather than continue to shoot yourself in the foot with your misconceptions about what needs to be done.

[coach]

From the whitetail thread:


I say let nature do its thing I myself don't care for MD I would eat WT over MD any day like I said let nature do its thing..


I never liked what the management did when they opened up a season two years ago for any mule deer buck here in the EK my opinion the have to go back to 4 point only buck next year except for juniors or 65+ in my area and I spent 5 months in the bush this year and saw very fer mule deer in fact only a hand full..

When I first read this, I thought you were being consistently inconsistent. Then I read a little more on the science of the situation and realized that more young bucks on the winter range makes it harder on the mature bucks. Combine this with the large numbers of whitetail and elk, and maybe you can get what you want..

Before anyone jumps on me, I'm sure Wayne doesn't really hope for the extinction of mule deer. I hate to pick on his posts as I respect so much of what he put up on here and the fact he is so willing to help other hunters - especially young ones. The problem with these discussions, is that it's so easy to post before you think. Others that respect people's opinions can easily get caught up in the rhetoric.

[happyhunter]

I never liked what the management did when they opened up a season two years ago for any mule deer buck here in the EK my opinion the have to go back to 4 point only buck next year except for juniors or 65+ in my area and I spent 5 months in the bush this year and saw very fer mule deer in fact only a hand full..

Your doing it wrong wayne! You need to be using a plane if u want to see muleys, apparently. Or you need to spend more time in the bush! Or your just a bad hunter if you don't see the muleys! Kidding of course.

We know how much time wayne spends out there, and if he is only seeing a few muleys then maybe thats something to think about.

Somebody said you shouldn't believe everything people say, but if everybody from the east koots are saying the same thing about the mule deer populations hurting, even if everybody is grossly exaggerating the state of things, there is still a sliver of truth there and its worth thinking about. Not everyone who says the mule deer are low is a shitty hunter, or doesnt get out enough, or only road hunts. I've heard the same thing from the road hunters, the trappers, guys that work in the bush, the guides, the newbies, the experienced guys that get their deer every year, the guys who scout year round, the hardcores, the high country hunters, day trippers, the sleeping on the mountain for a week guys... I think the opinions of so many should not be dismissed so easily as gossip.

[Andrews]

Get out and volunteer on a winter range enhancement project then, if you want to do something now. Bitching about a hunting season that has no effect on mule deer populations isn't doing anything to help the deer, but it does turn people off who would otherwise get involved and help out where it's really needed. You need to set goals and priorities that are going to have a positive result, rather than continue to shoot yourself in the foot with your misconceptions about what needs to be done.

I'd love to know where to volunteer for such programs - no sarcasm, can anyone provide a link? FD - I assume they also have them in region 8 where you are?

[Savage Man]

[QUOTE=Fisher-Dude;1020782]Get out and volunteer on a winter range enhancement project then, if you want to do something now. Bitching about a hunting season that has no effect on mule deer populations isn't doing anything to help the deer, but it does turn people off who would otherwise get involved and help out where it's really needed. You need to set goals and priorities that are going to have a positive result, rather than continue to shoot yourself in the foot with your misconceptions about what needs to be done.[/ QUOTE]
WOW !!!! I had a long answer for ya but I give up !!!! I know that I don't know anything and don't spend anytime in the bush in the east kootenays ( 40 days atleast for this FALL season and more to come) and don't talk to alot of other hard core hunters in the area that share my views(HUNDREDS) and I know that many of you are far more knowledgeable than myself and many people who have hunted here for many many years . Oh AND HOW DO YOU KNOW I HAVN'T BEEN INVOLVED IN THESE PROJECTS.

[Looking_4_Jerky]

Is it possible that the wildlife guys ever make mistakes like the DFO guys do when they count fish and predict returns? I really dont know how wildlife counts work, I just trust what the government prints but because I also work for the government so I am a little sceptical.

OK, here we go...

Dino, I see too much of this kind of rhetoric on the fishing forums! Of course it's possible there is error in any statistical analysis conducted in or outside of the biological world. That's why statistical results are often qualified by "Confidence Intervals" or margins of error. Regardless of this error factor, we have to believe that wildlife managers are better equipped to conduct the enumerations than the many armchair scientists making unsupported and ill-informed claims on these forums.

I too work in gov, and although I don't work in the fish or wildlife branches I know many of them and work with them where our business overlaps. I can assure you that none of them are there not giving a crap about the standard to which they do their job, not caring about whether there are mulies in region 4 or not. They are all passionate about their work, whether they are hunters or not, and are all there because that's where they want to be, not just because that's where they fell in the organization. I'm not saying all the Prov Govt does is gospel, I'm just saying that we are lucky to have a crew of professionals who care about their work and are doing a decent job with the resources they have at their disposal. Those resources may not always be generous, but that's where the world of finance and/or politics meets fish/wildlife management, and that's another discussion.

They may not always be bang on, but what are they supposed to do, get me and you to count the deer?

[coach]

I'd love to know where to volunteer for such programs - no sarcasm, can anyone provide a link? FD - I assume they also have them in region 8 where you are?

I started a thread asking about this: http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?74765-How-does-an-individual-get-involved-for-the-betterment-of-wildlife-and-hunting

[coach]

[QUOTE=Fisher-Dude;1020782]Get out and volunteer on a winter range enhancement project then, if you want to do something now. Bitching about a hunting season that has no effect on mule deer populations isn't doing anything to help the deer, but it does turn people off who would otherwise get involved and help out where it's really needed. You need to set goals and priorities that are going to have a positive result, rather than continue to shoot yourself in the foot with your misconceptions about what needs to be done.[/ QUOTE]
WOW !!!! I had a long answer for ya but I give up !!!! I know that I don't know anything and don't spend anytime in the bush in the east kootenays ( 40 days atleast for this FALL season and more to come) and don't talk to alot of other hard core hunters in the area that share my views(HUNDREDS) and I know that many of you are far more knowledgeable than myself and many people who have hunted here for many many years . Oh AND HOW DO YOU KNOW I HAVN'T BEEN INVOLVED IN THESE PROJECTS.

For those of us who are looking to get involved, what can you tell us about your experience?

[Savage Man]

[QUOTE=Savage Man;1020862]

For those of us who are looking to get involved, what can you tell us about your experience?
Good helped with a cotrolled burn to enhance winter range

[Husky7mm]

Well I didn't shoot a MD this year only saw two 4 points but to be honest I didn't try very hard (full freezer) was out with a couple rookies on the 14th and we saw upwards of 80 MD does between us and about 10 dink bucks. From what I can see the deer stayed tight in the timber this year as there was lots of feed for them there. Lots of big deer rolling into town today with the snow saw two pigs this afternoon.

Well I guess everything is good then, the hundreds of concerned hunters are just not hunting hard enough. If I barly hunted mule deer this yr and had one good day out or saw abunch of town deer, I would ASSume they everything was hunky dory also. You know what they say about assume.:confused:

[Andrews]

Thanks, Coach.

[6616]

ANTLER POINT REGULATION


THE GOOD, THE BAD, AND THE UGLY
Len H. Carpenter
Wildlife Research Leader, Colorado Division of Wildlife
R. Bruce Gill
Wildlife Research Leader, Colorado Division of Wildlife
This is a Brief summary of this study

The obvious prescription of choice for the current deer and elk management "Sickness" is antler point regulations. But it is not quite so obvious what the "sickness" is. Antler point regulations have been hailed as the cure for increasing numbers of bucks and bulls for breeding, increasing numbers of branch-antlered bucks and bulls for a hunt of higher "trophy value", and/or decreasing the density of hunters to increase the "quality" of the hunt. With such diversity of "diseases" it would be surprising if the prescription cured all without undesirable side effects.
The increasing popularity of antler point regulation among organized segments of hunting public and among some wildlife professionals suggests to us that it is time to call for a second diagnostic opinion.
The Good
Antler point regulations are a popular management initiative. There seems to be a significant and vocal segment of the hunting public who want more trophy class bucks and less hunter crowding. The evidence from Colorado’s experience suggests that if antler point regulations are in effect, deer and elk hunter densities are reduced.
The Bad
In order to work, antler point regulations assume the hunting mortality is totally addictive. That is, a reduction in hunting mortality does not result in an increase in natural mortality. Although the data base for any of these "iffy" assumptions is meager, that data is worth reviewing to see if antler point regulations are a viable management strategy to increase males and /or to increase recruitment
The Ugly
No one knows the real costs associated with antler point regulations because there are no reliable quantified estimates of those costs. But those costs are likely to be expressed as increased unretrieved harvests, either as true wounding losses or as illegal kill; increased law enforcement costs; decreased interest in and support for hunting as regulations become more complex and hunter success goes down; (and resurging belief in the efficacy of conservative hunting prescriptions as a general cure for all population dynamics ills.)
Evidence suggests that one cost that goes up when antler point regulations are imposed is the cost of unretrieved harvests.
ANTLER POINT REGUALTIONS—ELK
The argument for antler point regulation as a medicine for elk harvesting ills is a bit more straightforward. First of all, peak of elk breeding for North American elk occurs during Sept. and early Oct. (Murie 1979), before most regular rifle seasons. If the objective is to increase the numbers of branch-antlered males for breeding, antler point regulations may be successful. However, importance of bulls older than yearlings to breeding is debatable (Follis 1972, Squibb 1985, Harper et al. 1985, reviewed by Freddy 1987b). Studies have shown that pregnancy rates and time of breeding vary in elk, relative to yearling versus mature males (Hines and Lemos 1979), Prothero et al. 1979).
As discussed with deer. Antler point regulations also decrease elk hunter densities. To the HUNTER SEEKING LESS CROWDING, this benefit is welcome. In Colorado, elk hunting, more so than deer hunting, is a lucrative business for guides and outfitters. The primary clientele of that business are hunters in pursuit of trophy animals. They represent a minority of the total hunting public, but because GUIDES AND OUTFITTERS are organized and vocal, the trophy-hunting minority exerts a large influence on the politics of establishing big game hunting regulations. They see their INTRESTS as best served through hunting regulations that minimize hunter densities and maximize trophy animals. Thus they PRESSURE for conservative management strategies.
Closely ALLIED with GUIDES and OUTFITTERS are the organized sportsmen’s groups. They to are dominated by hunters who prefer to hunt trophy animals in UNCROWDED conditions. CONSERVATIVE HUNTING STRATEGIES SUCH AS ANTLER POINT REGULATIONS APPEAR TO SERVE BOTH INTRESTS. IN ORGANIZED HUNTING AND FISHING CONSTITUENCES SUCH AS GUIDES AND OUTFITTERS AND SPORTSMEN’S ORGANIZATIONS ARE INFLUENTIAL IN EFFECTING THE OPPOINTMENT OF WILDLIFE COMMISSIONERS. THOUGH THEY REPRESENT A MINORITY OF THE HUNTING RECREATIOISTS, THEIR INFLUENCE OVER HUNTING REGULATIONS IS PARAMOUNT.
It is axiomatic that declining hunter numbers and interest with antler point regulations is bad for wildlife agencies struggling to survive economically. If the cost of doing business with antler point restrictions is high, ALL WILLIFE PROGRAMS SUFFER. It, there fore, becomes extremely important that agencies carefully monitor demand for trophy hunting recreation in relation to total hunting recreation demand and structure hunting programs to meet REAL DEMANDS. We may be prescribing TOXIC MEDICINE to SATISFY A MINORITY OF OUT HUNTING CUSTOMERS.
THE UGLY
IN Colorado, when the Wildlife Commission established antler point regulations in 1971 and 1972 to increase "trophy" elk, the number of illegally killed elk was estimated by interviewing hunters at check stations in the White River (Boyd and Lipscomb 1976). The general impression after these seasons was that unretrieved loss of spike bulls was higher than in any previous hunting season in the White River (Boyd and Lipscomb 1976).
The magnitude of illegal harvest of elk with antler point regulations was again monitored for the White River elk herd with hunters surveys following the 1985 and 1986 elk season (Freddy 1986, 1987a). Bulls exceeded 65% of the elk reported abandoned, with spike bulls being the most frequent. There was a total of 0.37 and 0.051 spikes bulls reported abandoned for each legal bull harvested in 1985 and 1986, respectively (Freddy 1987a). In comparison, during 1966-68 when any bull was legal less than 14% of elk reported abandoned in White River were bulls (prenzlow 1976, 1968, 1969).
Interestingly, both Harper et al. (1985) and Freddy (1987a) reported a corresponding increase in unretrieved harvest of female elk as hunter densities increased with antler point regulations in effect. What this means is unclear, perhaps it is evidence of the "SHOOT AND SORT LATER" syndrome that may accompany progressively restrictive regulations.
CONCLUSIONS
We have 3 major reservations with antler point regulations. The first deals with the problem of measuring TRUE HUNTER DEMAND. By and large, the majority of license buying hunters are quiet and do not make there wishes known. In contrast, vocal minorities are outspoken about THEIR HUNTING INTRESTS. As a consequence, hunting strategies often are dictated by the "squeaky wheel syndrome." To avoid this, we recommend that wildlife agencies begin to routinely and validly monitor hunting recreation demand. At a minimum surveys should try to determine the demand for trophy hunting, low density hunting, and high success hunting. Hunting regulations should then be formulated in relation to these results.

[Husky7mm]

The arieal survey will happen again this year as promised. It would be nice if they included more of the mule deer winter range, than just the obvious places. True we are lucky to even has these survays. Dont assume they know exactly the best time to collect this data. The one done prior was done along with an elk count after most of the deer had shed there horns. OOPS!!!!!! There was also about a 10 yr gap since the last one. Wildlife is way down on the Gov priority list, Except the cute and cudduly grizzly bear. Im sure the funding for anything to do with grizzlies come from an out side source. Anyway wildlife is way down on the list.
The survay will confirm what the masses are saying. Hunter "opportunity" can be good but in this case the high amount of hunting, and predation has cost the hunters their "opportunity" The season will change you'll see. Just as a lake can be over fished so can an area be over harvested. Add a high number of preditors and its just NFG for the mule deer.
Keep in mind when bio's talk about buck to doe ratios IE 20-100, They didnt actually count 120 deer. It can be 2 bucks and 10 does. The ratio has nothing to do with the total popualtion. When they fly over "approved" winter range during a time when the deer are concentrated there and count less than a 1000 deer for the whole EK and WK study area that not alot of deer. Thats all the mule from all kinds of watersheds and valleys all concentrated onto winter range. Thats not alot of deer.:icon_frow

[Husky7mm]

Well 6616 it sound like antler restrictions do work to increase the number of bucks and bulls. Liberal or "Easy" seasons never last as like all good things they come to an end. Peaks and valleys, Peaks and valleys. It takes years for numbers to come back up from too liberal a season. Why does hunting need to be easier. Anything worth while takes work and effort, thats life. The hunting recreation demand here is simply to high to support the current harvest, which by the way was way down this year. The regs for mulies will change, you'll all see, and hope I its big time.

[Husky7mm]

And whats wrong with the disire to have MORE bucks and bulls. Thats what is mostly harvested right. You harvest does and cows the population goes down right; and thats a fact. Dont all hunters want a higher amount of huntable game? Are the guide and outfitters and hunting groups out to lunch for wanting higher numbers of quary? Should the restrictions be removed completely and have over 100000 hunters plunking whatever they like so we dont piss anyone off who doesnt want to follow a few rules? A lot of hunters would shoot the last deer on the mountain. After a few years the hunting would be horrable. All your new "recruits" would drop out the first hard year.

[Fisher-Dude]

I never liked what the management did when they opened up a season two years ago for any mule deer buck here in the EK my opinion the have to go back to 4 point only buck next year except for juniors or 65+ in my area and I spent 5 months in the bush this year and saw very fer mule deer in fact only a hand full..

It depends where you spent your time Wayne. If you were around your camp in an area that isn't suitable mule deer habitat, it's likely you didn't see many. From the videos and pics you posted, I suspect you were in less than ideal mule deer country, and were in better elk and WT habitat. Ingrowth and thickets don't favour mule deer.

[Fisher-Dude]

And whats wrong with the disire to have MORE bucks and bulls. Thats what is mostly harvested right. You harvest does and cows the population goes down right; and thats a fact. Dont all hunters want a higher amount of huntable game? Are the guide and outfitters and hunting groups out to lunch for wanting higher numbers of quary? Should the restrictions be removed completely and have over 100000 hunters plunking whatever they like so we dont piss anyone off who doesnt want to follow a few rules? A lot of hunters would shoot the last deer on the mountain. After a few years the hunting would be horrable. All your new "recruits" would drop out the first hard year.


Why didn't 180,000 hunters kill off the mule deer with the any buck season extending from Sept 10 to Nov 15 or Nov 30 for many decades, including in the East Kootenays?

[Husky7mm]

Why didn't 180,000 hunters kill off the mule deer with the any buck season extending from Sept 10 to Nov 15 or Nov 30 for many decades, including in the East Kootenays?

Well back then I doubt hunters drove the entire province hunting every open season they could fit in. A week here a week there.
Less access less logging and mining roads. NO WOLVES!!!!!!! The good old internet, " I'm a newbie and I cant find my first deer" "well go this FSR take a right and a left theres good hunting there" Off goes newbie and 25 others who heard the advice. The good old internet.
This year I tavelled to a road closure with dreams of a whopper. Some very respectable deer had been coming out of the area. Well let me tell you it was like the wallmart parking lot at christmas time. That area will be a gonner in no time. 25 guys a few horses and some lamas all on one little road closure, they can have it.
Whats your take, you think the region 4 mulie is doing just great? Have you not seen a decline as of late? You hunt here right.

[6616]

Well back then I doubt hunters drove the entire province hunting every open season they could fit in. A week here a week there.
Less access less logging and mining roads. NO WOLVES!!!!!!! The good old internet.

Things are certainly different now, besides the things you mention, we have better trucks with better tires, we have quads now, better hunting gear all around, we also had much more logging activity in the tributaries of the main Trench to enhance carrying capacity for deer and elk and stimulate population growth, we had long periods of 10 or more years of mild winters in a row through the late '70's until 1996, we had more winter range available to deer and elk back then, no exclusion fences. We had less highway and railroad traffic and probably lower mortality due to collisions. There, including those you named, are reasons that might prevent us from ever going back to those days including a much more conservative attitude by managers and hunters in regards to harvest rates.

However it's still a fair question the Dude asks, in the late '70s in Region 4 we were shooting 1500 to 1700 bull elk per year and the majority of them were less than 6 points. We were killing 5000 to 8000 deer per year and most of them were mule deer and most of them were young bucks, we had antlerless GOS seasons on elk, WTD, and MD,,,,,,, why didn't that cause a decline...??? Why did elk and deer herds keep expanding until the mid-1980s in spite of this heavy harvest?

I'm not saying everything is hunky-dory, I would like to see a bunch of wolves shot, I would like to see more habitat enhancement, but those years do show that hunting harvest levels are usually much less of a factor in wildlife population declines than many seem to think, and reverting back to more restrictive harvests is unlikely to correct whatever is wrong.

[Fisher-Dude]

Well back then I doubt hunters drove the entire province hunting every open season they could fit in. A week here a week there.
Less access less logging and mining roads. NO WOLVES!!!!!!! The good old internet, " I'm a newbie and I cant find my first deer" "well go this FSR take a right and a left theres good hunting there" Off goes newbie and 25 others who heard the advice. The good old internet.
This year I tavelled to a road closure with dreams of a whopper. Some very respectable deer had been coming out of the area. Well let me tell you it was like the wallmart parking lot at christmas time. That area will be a gonner in no time. 25 guys a few horses and some lamas all on one little road closure, they can have it.
Whats your take, you think the region 4 mulie is doing just great? Have you not seen a decline as of late? You hunt here right.


You're talking a lot about social issues in your post, which makes me think you're relying on opinion and not on facts.

As 6616 said, we used to shoot 5,000 - 8,000 deer a year in region 4, and populations still expanded.

Now, we shoot 1,200 mule deer a year in R4. And this despite the internet, quads, and everything else you're blaming for the "slaughter." Well, the facts show that there is no slaughter, in fact harvest is only a small fraction of what it used to be.

To have an expanding population while we were shooting 5,000 - 8,000 deer is proof positive that the harvest of only 1,200 deer is NOT the cause of a population decline.


Oh yeah, we used to have 10,000 - 12,000 mule deer hunters in R4. Now we have 4,700 - 5,500 mule deer hunters. Your Walmart parking lot analogy just doesn't cut it, as pressure on the deer is less than half of what it used to be.

[6616]

I'm not guaranteeing the MD population in Region 4 won't collapse (but I highly doubt it). What I am saying is that if it does it won't be because of hunting seasons, regulations or the any buck season. It will be due to a combination of reasons completelly unrelated to hunting, like wolves, habitat degradation and competition from other species, or perhaps we might have another killer winter like '96/'97. If it's going to happen it will still happen even if we close MD hunting completelly today.

Having said that I persomally believe the situation is not as bad as some on here have painted, I don't believe we're on the verge of a collapse. But if you're worried about that and want to do something about it, restricting hunting seasons will not get you the results you seek. You need to take care of the predator, habitat and competition issues that are the real problems.

[hunter1947]

Tell me this how does anyone know if a spike buck or a fork buck has not got a good jean pool ??? I know I don't and as far as I am concerned they are a new recruitments and if a hi percentage of them get shot they won't grow up to be a jean pool buck we have to let a percentage of these young bucks grow up to an adult age soon the number of MD decline in population and don't forget to add winter kill ,pouching ,predator problums..

Tell me this how does management know how many MD bucks have been shot and I don't like the card thing you get in the mail many times I don't get a survey report card as for many others I would think..

On my 3 month shed hunt I put 290k of walking looking for sheds and this was in different management areas ,4-22 ,4-21 4-4 .4-3 ,4-1 ,4-2 I saw lots of elk and WT deer 10 to 1 in favor of the WT deer I saw few mule deer this tells me that something is not right and this is when the MD as others are at the low elevation go figure.

The winter kill on young MD bucks will take the weak and the strong will go on to see the spring when the season is open for any MD buck the hunter is taking both the weak and the strong if there was only a 4 point season these younger deer have got past the first carousal years of the bad winter they are the stronger ones.

[Fisher-Dude]

Who cares what the gene pool is? We're not in the business of growing big deer, we're in the business of maintaining healthy, sustainable herds. It doesn't matter if the buck has genes to be a 4 point or a 6 point - his sperm is all that is needed to produce fawns for the next spring. There will be NO decline in population from sperm that produces a 150" buck versus a 200" buck. Who's sperm it is is irrelevant as to how healthy the herd is - we just need enough to knock up the does. Does are sluts and don't care who breeds them.

The harvest card sampling that is done is +/- 0.27% correct 19.8 times out of 20. That is perfection in accuracy.

Winter kill affects all age and sex classes of deer. When there is a 30% shortfall in nutrition, for example, ALL deer starve by 30%, and we don't lose 30% of the deer, but perhaps 50 - 60% like we did in 96/97. And harvest of younger animals helps the older, rut-weary, mature bucks survive the winter because younger animals are harder on winter range because they eat more by spending more time on the range.

It makes sense to harvest younger animals that are somewhat more vulnerable to winter kill because much of the harvest is compensatory (ie we shoot animals that were going to die anyway) as opposed to additive (ie the animals would survive the winter but we shoot them beforehand).

Too much American TV food plot bullshit is creating a great deal of misunderstanding here as to what management objectives are. When we see some Texan "growing" big whitetails on a high-fenced ranch with super-steroid food pellets, and try to apply that to mule deer in our Rocky Mountains, we're sure to be fked up in our thinking. We need to apply management plans that are tailored to OUR deer, OUR habitat, and OUR winter conditions.

[Fishhound]

Good post, Fisher-Dude
Are there any management plans and or habitat ehancment projects underway here in the okanagan.

I know one thing for certain I am seeing far too many wolf tracks and wolves in our area where I never seen them before (MU-8) and they need to be dealt with

[Fisher-Dude]

Good post, Fisher-Dude
Are there any management plans and or habitat ehancment projects underway here in the okanagan.

I know one thing for certain I am seeing far too many wolf tracks and wolves in our area where I never seen them before (MU-8) and they need to be dealt with

Yes, there are projects here. Bald Range behind Summerland had several hectares burnt again this year. We did a smaller scale project on the east slopes with thinning and brush removal utilizing the RSS forestry class. We're currently in the planning stages of a wide scale re-burn in Okanagan Mountain Park - we have the habitat we need there finally, now we have to maintain it.

Wolves - we're closer to having a season than ever before - I think it may fly for 2012's regulations.



I took this pic on Tuesday. How much protein does a wolf with 5" feet need?! :shock:


http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e70/Fisher-Dude/HPIM1395.jpg

[hunter1947]

Who cares what the gene pool is? We're not in the business of growing big deer, we're in the business of maintaining healthy, sustainable herds. It doesn't matter if the buck has genes to be a 4 point or a 6 point - his sperm is all that is needed to produce fawns for the next spring. There will be NO decline in population from sperm that produces a 150" buck versus a 200" buck. Who's sperm it is is irrelevant as to how healthy the herd is - we just need enough to knock up the does. Does are sluts and don't care who breeds them.

The harvest card sampling that is done is +/- 0.27% correct 19.8 times out of 20. That is perfection in accuracy.

Winter kill affects all age and sex classes of deer. When there is a 30% shortfall in nutrition, for example, ALL deer starve by 30%, and we don't lose 30% of the deer, but perhaps 50 - 60% like we did in 96/97. And harvest of younger animals helps the older, rut-weary, mature bucks survive the winter because younger animals are harder on winter range because they eat more by spending more time on the range.

It makes sense to harvest younger animals that are somewhat more vulnerable to winter kill because much of the harvest is compensatory (ie we shoot animals that were going to die anyway) as opposed to additive (ie the animals would survive the winter but we shoot them beforehand).

Too much American TV food plot bullshit is creating a great deal of misunderstanding here as to what management objectives are. When we see some Texan "growing" big whitetails on a high-fenced ranch with super-steroid food pellets, and try to apply that to mule deer in our Rocky Mountains, we're sure to be fked up in our thinking. We need to apply management plans that are tailored to OUR deer, OUR habitat, and OUR winter conditions.

Pat if you need more bucks to knock up the does then don't shoot the smaller bucks let them marcher to a 4 point ..

[hunter1947]

Yes, there are projects here. Bald Range behind Summerland had several hectares burnt again this year. We did a smaller scale project on the east slopes with thinning and brush removal utilizing the RSS forestry class. We're currently in the planning stages of a wide scale re-burn in Okanagan Mountain Park - we have the habitat we need there finally, now we have to maintain it.

Wolves - we're closer to having a season than ever before - I think it may fly for 2012's regulations.



I took this pic on Tuesday. How much protein does a wolf with 5" feet need?! :shock:


http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e70/Fisher-Dude/HPIM1395.jpg


You take away the over lap of the snow and you will have true measurement 4 inches.

[6616]

Pat if you need more bucks to knock up the does then don't shoot the smaller bucks let them marcher to a 4 point ..

There is no pressing conservation need for more bucks, the does are already all getting knocked up, we have adequate buck/doe ratios and a solid sperm supply. Buck/doe ratios are higher than provincial management objectives with one possible exception being 4-03.

What we need is higher fawn survival to increase recruitment rate of breeding age females. During hunting season when you see a doe you usually see a fawn or two with her, but not enough of these fawns are surviving winter. Why? Wolves, competition from WTD and elk and depleted winter range habitat (large numbers of WTD, domestic cows, and homesteader elk are eating up the winter range forage during the summer months).

[hunter1947]

There is no pressing conservation need for more bucks, the does are already all getting knocked up, we have adequate buck/doe ratios and a solid sperm supply. Buck/doe ratios are higher than provincial management objectives with one possible exception being 4-03.

What we need is higher fawn survival to increase recruitment rate of breeding age females. During hunting season when you see a doe you usually see a fawn or two with her, but not enough of these fawns are surviving winter. Why? Wolves, competition from WTD and elk and depleted winter range habitat (large numbers of WTD, domestic cows, and homesteader elk are eating up the winter range forage during the summer months).

Andy Its sounds like our wildlife management are not doing there jobs right if this is true ????? ,talking about fawns I saw very few MD does from July to Nov this year in order to see a fawn ,sounds to me that they the management need to do there jobs better and get a handle on the predator problem and number of elk reduced..

In where I hunt there are more wolves then ever as you know from my call in on that wolf pack earlier this year ,I am no expert on how to manage wildlife but I can tell you I see whats out there from my time spent in the wild ,H-47...

[Fisher-Dude]

Andy Its sounds like our wildlife management are not doing there jobs right if this is true ????? ..

Don't you think a whitetail doe and cow elk season on the winter range is "doing their job"? They are doing the right things that will help mule deer fawns survive with those seasons.

[6616]

Andy Its sounds like our wildlife management are not doing there jobs right if this is true ????? ,talking about fawns I saw very few MD does from July to Nov this year in order to see a fawn ,sounds to me that they the management need to do there jobs better and get a handle on the predator problem and number of elk reduced..

In where I hunt there are more wolves then ever as you know from my call in on that wolf pack earlier this year ,I am no expert on how to manage wildlife but I can tell you I see whats out there from my time spent in the wild ,H-47...

It's not as easy as it looks Wayne. I'd say they're doing the best they can. As Pat says they've initiated a WTD antlerless GOS and and elk antlerless GOS and LEH to try to allieviate the competition problem.

They're heavily involved with the eco-system restoration program in attempts to improve winter range habitat. If there's any lack here it's not because of F&W not doing their job, it's a lack of funding to get more acreage treated. ER and habitat enhancement is very expensive ranging from $400.00 to over $1000.00 per Ha depending on the perscription. We're already milking FWCP and HCTF as much as we can for ER funding. We need a stronger committment from government. Bill Bennett is only one of a small handfull of MLAs who champion this cause.

I (and everyone) agee with you that there's a lot of wolves out there. F&W have opened up hunting and trapping seasons on predators as much as possible, what else can they do? You know as well as I that any decision regarding a wolf control program is going to be a highly sensitive political issue and that many MLAs won't even want to be associated with. Government is highly unlikely to give F&W Management the green light on a wolf control program, especially outside the caribou recovery areas. So, we're between a rock and a hard place on wolves and F&W Branch is right in there with us wringing their hands unable to do what they know should be done.

[6616]

I (and everyone) agee with you that there's a lot of wolves out there. F&W have opened up hunting and trapping seasons on predators as much as possible, what else can they do? You know as well as I that any decision regarding a wolf control program is going to be a highly sensitive political issue and that many MLAs won't even want to be associated with. Government is highly unlikely to give F&W Management the green light on a wolf control program, especially outside the caribou recovery areas. So, we're between a rock and a hard place on wolves and F&W Branch is right in there with us wringing their hands unable to do what they know should be done.

To add to the discussion on wolves, I believe it's the high WTD and elk populations that are driving and maintaining the high wolf population. The wolves aren't just eating mule deer. Due to the much higher numbers of elk and WTD they're probably eating more of them than mule deer. So, the WTD and elk populations are possibly causing more than just a competition issue.

Nothing is as simple as it seems. What happens with WTD and elk populations if we did have a wolf control program to help out mule deer? I don't see any major decrease in elk numbers even with all the additional antlerless seasons. I also doubt if shooting a mere 1000 to 2000 WTD does each year is going to impact a WTD population of 50,000 deer. Kill the wolves and the WTD and elk populations may begin to expand at an unprecedented rate that we may not be able to control. Then we'll see "major" competition issues for mule deer and habitat destruction that might make today's conditions look mild.

The whole system is inter-related and connected and how we manage one species effects several other species. It's often very difficult to predict what might happen to inter-species relationships and inter-actions as a result of a significant management decision (like wolf control) on a mixed species habitat base. We have significant overlap in habitat use in the East Kootenay between WTD, MD, elk, sheep and even moose to some extent, and that fact complicates this issue a lot.

[Husky7mm]

You're talking a lot about social issues in your post, which makes me think you're relying on opinion and not on facts.

As 6616 said, we used to shoot 5,000 - 8,000 deer a year in region 4, and populations still expanded.

Now, we shoot 1,200 mule deer a year in R4. And this despite the internet, quads, and everything else you're blaming for the "slaughter." Well, the facts show that there is no slaughter, in fact harvest is only a small fraction of what it used to be.

To have an expanding population while we were shooting 5,000 - 8,000 deer is proof positive that the harvest of only 1,200 deer is NOT the cause of a population decline.


Oh yeah, we used to have 10,000 - 12,000 mule deer hunters in R4. Now we have 4,700 - 5,500 mule deer hunters. Your Walmart parking lot analogy just doesn't cut it, as pressure on the deer is less than half of what it used to be.

Hey FD I'll take a picture of all the trucks next time. Saw so many people in the bush this year you would'nt believe it. Every time I rounded another corner another guy another truck. Everyone in them rolling their eye's, no buddys smiling. I know what their thinking. OMG Fing hunters everywhere!!!! The pressure was so intense this year the game pretty much stayed nocturnal all season long. I know there's still lots of game left. I can read the sign I see the tracks and dropping.
I dont think the mule deer population is on the verge of collapsing, IT JUST GOING NO WHERE. Like I said already!!!!
We are rounding a corner here. An area that use to support good mule deer hunting no longer does. Many parts of the province are like that. Its just sad. I live here and now I have to travel just to get in a quaility mule deer hunt. I shouldnt have to be like that.
Anyways FD ovbviously there were way more mule deer then right. The facts are the facts. Region 5 used to support the largest moose harvest in the province, it no longer does. Things change. What was the mule deer population then, what is it now? All factors. I bet money theres more hunters in ratio to the deer population today than there was back in the golden days.
More restrictions wont improve mule deer alone, it would be a combination of things, ie (preditor control), just like a combination of things is to blame for making it poor.

[Husky7mm]

There is no pressing conservation need for more bucks, the does are already all getting knocked up, we have adequate buck/doe ratios and a solid sperm supply. Buck/doe ratios are higher than provincial management objectives with one possible exception being 4-03.

What we need is higher fawn survival to increase recruitment rate of breeding age females. During hunting season when you see a doe you usually see a fawn or two with her, but not enough of these fawns are surviving winter. Why? Wolves, competition from WTD and elk and depleted winter range habitat (large numbers of WTD, domestic cows, and homesteader elk are eating up the winter range forage during the summer months).

bingo
Very few MD fawns left after winter. The wolves and cougars get plenty of young and old. Then add the fact that anything with bone on its head is far game. The population is going no where, and nothing is being done about it.

[Husky7mm]

Mule deer, dont usually eat the same food as WT and ELK. Many places that mule deer winter dont have any elk or WT present. Many of the areas that have been restored, dont have any mule deer utilizing it. Many area that are thick with ingowth support mule deer because thats what there eating. We dont have a tonne of classic buck brush and cliff rose covered winter range like the prairies or the states. Many of mulies are wintering up under the trees, some times way up.
I'm not buying the there gonna die anyways so we should shoot them crap. Its crap!!! People want it easy, they want to be able to shoot the game they see from the road, young bucks an does. Again for at least the 5th time show me the pics of all the staving deer and elk who ate them selves out of house and home.
This area can support a tonne, a tonne of game. D
Dont get me wrong I am all for habitat resto, the more the better.
Last years winter was pretty harse yet the game went though it fat and sassy. The carcases found on the winter range didnt die of starvation, it was chased down and killed and ate, by high numbers of preditors. We are competing with the preditors for the game thats nature, preditors kill preditors thats natural.

[aggiehunter]

It may even be possible to agree with FD that hunting may not be an issue....but we are all here to protect and enhance the herds so we have to act first...it's just the way conservation works...unless you can convince wolves to quit eating them....instead of having your hand out for more it's time to get involved with projects or at least get them started. Even the MOE used the FN's in the Alsek to track down moose...they knew exactly where the Bulls wintered yet our highly paid bio's and wannabee's had no clue....hmmmm. So if a guy thats been hunting zones since childhood makes a statement take some stock in what he says....I'll trust him over a paper trail fly by scat count mail out questionaire anyday.

[6616]

Competition between species takes several forms besides just simple competition for food. Mule deer just naturally avoid areas with high elk densities if they can. Spatial displacement can and does occur. Research has shown that the presence of mule deer does not effect elk, but the presence of elk has a significant impact on mule deer. MD use of habitat is strongly effected by elk movements. All these things and others fall under inter-specific competition, not just forage species overlap. Structural changes to eco-systems and plant communities caused by the foraging of a high density species (elk and WTD) may not favour low density species (mule deer). Even high predator populations driven by a high density species having a significant negative impact on a low density species is a form of competition.

As far as forage competition between deer and elk is concerned, forage competition is low and niche partitioning is high when forage is readily available, but niche partitioning decreases and competition for forage between species increases on poorer quality habitat sites, on over-used or over-grazed habitats, or on crowded habitats where any one of several species co-occupying a common habitat base is at a high density. Also competition for forage and forage species overlap increases dramatically when a wide range of forage species are not available such as during the winter months. It's almost certain Husky7mm, that there is inter-specific competition of several forms in the East Kootenay considering our current high densities of elk and WTD that's having a negative impact on mule deer.

There's lots of good information out there on this. Inter-specific competition has been studied intensely.
http://www.cabnr.unr.edu/stewart/publications/resource%20partitioning.pdf

[coach]

It may even be possible to agree that hunting may not be an issue....but we are all here to protect and enhance the herds so we have to act first...it's just the way conservation works...unless you can convince wolves to quit eating them....instead of having your hand out for more it's time to get involved with projects or at least get them started.

Well said, Aggie. I had to shorten it a bit, but it's good to see you thinking this way.

[Everett]

Hey FD I'll take a picture of all the trucks next time. Saw so many people in the bush this year you would'nt believe it. Every time I rounded another corner another guy another truck. Everyone in them rolling their eye's, no buddys smiling. I know what their thinking. OMG Fing hunters everywhere!!!! The pressure was so intense this year the game pretty much stayed nocturnal all season long. I know there's still lots of game left. I can read the sign I see the tracks and dropping.
I dont think the mule deer population is on the verge of collapsing, IT JUST GOING NO WHERE. Like I said already!!!!
We are rounding a corner here. An area that use to support good mule deer hunting no longer does. Many parts of the province are like that. Its just sad. I live here and now I have to travel just to get in a quaility mule deer hunt. I shouldnt have to be like that.
Anyways FD ovbviously there were way more mule deer then right. The facts are the facts. Region 5 used to support the largest moose harvest in the province, it no longer does. Things change. What was the mule deer population then, what is it now? All factors. I bet money theres more hunters in ratio to the deer population today than there was back in the golden days.
More restrictions wont improve mule deer alone, it would be a combination of things, ie (preditor control), just like a combination of things is to blame for making it poor.

I spent the last three days hunting from my truck because my knee is acting up and I did not see a single hunter so you might want to change location of your hunts. For your info 2 days near skook and 1 day off teepee creek.

[GoatGuy]

It's great that there is an ongoing effort to survey mule deer populations in the EK and I'm sure they covered a lot of ground during those surveys. BUT isn't it sad that they only observed ~34 bucks similar to these two over those 2 seasons of surveys? I didn't see any Class IV bucks in the summaries you provided (although the lead buck in the pic might not squeak into the Class IV range).....
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Mule_deer4.jpg
Predators may be high but there's more to it than that as others have eluded to here.

Would suggest you read both reports, and inform yourself a little bit more.

[GoatGuy]

Hey FD I'll take a picture of all the trucks next time. Saw so many people in the bush this year you would'nt believe it. Every time I rounded another corner another guy another truck. Everyone in them rolling their eye's, no buddys smiling. I know what their thinking. OMG Fing hunters everywhere!!!! The pressure was so intense this year the game pretty much stayed nocturnal all season long. I know there's still lots of game left. I can read the sign I see the tracks and dropping.
I dont think the mule deer population is on the verge of collapsing, IT JUST GOING NO WHERE. Like I said already!!!!
We are rounding a corner here. An area that use to support good mule deer hunting no longer does. Many parts of the province are like that. Its just sad. I live here and now I have to travel just to get in a quaility mule deer hunt. I shouldnt have to be like that.
Anyways FD ovbviously there were way more mule deer then right. The facts are the facts. Region 5 used to support the largest moose harvest in the province, it no longer does. Things change. What was the mule deer population then, what is it now? All factors. I bet money theres more hunters in ratio to the deer population today than there was back in the golden days.
More restrictions wont improve mule deer alone, it would be a combination of things, ie (preditor control), just like a combination of things is to blame for making it poor.

Husky7mm, your posts are out to lunch. We typically spend 3-4 weeks hunting the EK and usually a 3-4 weekend mooching around in August. In the last 5 years I can count the number of resident hunters we've bumped into on one hand. We hunt by foot, on horses, trucks, quads what have you and compared to the rest of the province there are very few hunters in the EK unless you're hanging out in the bottom end of the Bull river. We stay the hell away from the cranbrook crowd because as you say often they're all miserable, none of them smile and they think the world's coming to an end. They all think the same, there's definitely something in the water that makes them miserable, complacent and sometimes they seem anti-hunter.

We see lots of MD in all the regular spots, elk like crazy (there are way too many of them), wt deer, sheep, goats, bears, you name it. And even Class IV bucks!! Buddy was out there last week and they were seeing 50-70 MD in a day. He said the most people they saw one weekend was 4..............

Your posts are none sense, try starting off with a bit of reality not "they only counted 3 bucks per 100 does". Quit chasing the gut piles and all the spots where big bucks 'were shot', and lay down some boot leather. It's hard to even read something when it's so outlandish, makes you think of some sort of religous fanatic that has predicted the end of the world.

[hunter1947]

Its everything a big box with ever thing inside thats not wanted as others have stated ,management ,predators habitat ,winter kill as for over hunted my opinion is the only way to get numbers of MD back is to close the season for a number of years and have LEH put in place at least this way they have a good idea on how many MD are being taken with the number of LEH tags given out in different areas make it mandatory that you have to report your kill.

I know I favor LEH ,and get more trappers involved to reduce the wolf population as for cats ,I did not like what management did last year opening up any buck season ,no one will ever convince me that opening the season for two years helped the MD population in fact I know it hurt the population by opening it up for any buck for 31 days..

I would trap wolves on any trappers trap liner if there are wolves in there area ,just give me written permission to trap on there trap line and I will be there.

[Fisher-Dude]

Its everything a big box with ever thing inside thats not wanted as others have stated ,management ,predators habitat ,winter kill as for over hunted my opinion is the only way to get numbers of MD back is to close the season for a number of years and have LEH put in place at least this way they have a good idea on how many MD are being taken with the number of LEH tags given out in different areas make it mandatory that you have to report your kill.

I know I favor LEH ,and get more trappers involved to reduce the wolf population as for cats ,I did not like what management did last year opening up any buck season ,no one will ever convince me that opening the season for two years helped the MD population in fact I know it hurt the population by opening it up for any buck for 31 days..

I would trap wolves on any trappers trap liner if there are wolves in there area ,just give me written permission to trap on there trap line and I will be there.

Again Wayne, you are missing the point. Closing the season or putting it on LEH will not change the deer population. There's only so much food to go around on the winter range, and you won't grow more deer with the same amount of food. May as well shoot the ones that are going to starve to death anyway. You'll have the same number of deer in the end.

Habitat work and predator control are the only things that will change deer numbers. Hunting makes absolutely no difference.

[6616]

Habitat work and predator control are the only things that will change deer numbers. Hunting makes absolutely no difference.

Well, referring to mulies only, and considering habitat work takes a long time to see the end results, and predator control outside caribou recovery areas is unlikely,,, I think in the short-term, reductions in elk and WTD numbers will prove necessary if the objective is to boost mule deer numbers. Reducing elk and WTD numbers should also help to reduce predator numbers, since elk and WTD make up the vast majority of the critters out there they are likely the species maintaining the high predator populations. Reductions of elk and WTD will also relieve spatial and food source competition issues which likely exist. Of the three issues effecting mule deer, habitat, predators, and competition, it seems competition might be the one we have the most control over.

Certainly as far as mule deer hunting goes, we're not shooting does in Region 4 to start with and since recruitment is the key and there's not a sperm shortage (the does are already all getting knocked up), curtailing the buck harvest is going to have no impact what-so-ever and will not stop the decline. It would be different Wayne if there was a sperm shortage, but with buck ratios of 20 per 100 does that shouldn't be the case. As an example, stopping the caribou hunt did nothing to arrest the decline in the southern caribou herds.

Since only 1/5 of the overall herd are bucks, and half the fawns and yearlings are males, recruitment into the 20% male component of the herd is likely not a problem. The shortfall in recruitment is for females needed to build up the breeding stock and increase overall productivity in order to produce more fawns (which again will be 50% males).

When a herd is in decline maintaining the number of males (even with hunting) is not usually an issue, maintaining the number of breeding age does is nearly always the issue. When doe numbers decline, productivity declines, and that's the key.

[hunter1947]

Andy its hard to agree with some of your statement ,I say there is a shortage on sperm from MD bucks in the EK and I say there there is not the shortage of habitat that lots believe in if this is true then management should reduce the elk population as for the WT population I know they have opened up a season for cows and WT doe's to reduce these numbers but is it enough ??? ,I say have a 3 week GOS for 3 point or better for elk in the EK next year there numbers are back up why not for 2012.

I can see a shortage of habitat when there is over two feet of snow on the ground and it has a crust of hard snow on it then the animals have a hard time getting to the ground in order to feed on the food this I see why they get thin and starve.

Can anyone tell me this how does anyone know that the ratio is 1/5 does every fawn get counted from underneath the animal and if not then how do the come up with this 1/5 number from the sex of the animal ???.

As I said in an earlier post that I know that there is a predator problem when I spend 5 months out there in the wild I see whats out there the question is what is the management going to do about this and what can we as hunter do about the predator problem ??? ,seeing wolfs and cougars in the wild is like trying to find a record book animal you just don't see them you only see there tracks...

I have always been a firm believer to leave the female animal alone they give birth to twins many of times as you said Andy we have a problem right now with MD doe's..

[6616]

Andy its hard to agree with some of your statement ,I say there is a shortage on sperm from MD bucks in the EK and I say there there is not the shortage of habitat that lots believe in if this is true then management should reduce the elk population as for the WT population I know they have opened up a season for cows and WT doe's to reduce these numbers but is it enough ??? ,I say have a GOS for elk in the EK next year there numbers are back why not for 2012.

I can see a shortage of habitat when there is over two feet of snow on the ground and it has a crust of hard snow on it then the animals have a hard time getting to the ground in order to feed on the food this I see why they get thin and starve.

Can anyone tell me this how does anyone know that the ratio is 1/5 does every fawn get counted from underneath the animal and if not then how do the come up with this 1/5 number from the sex of the animal ???.

As I said in an earlier post that I know that there is a predator problem when I spend 5 months out there in the wild I see whats out there the question is what is the management going to do about this and what can we as hunter do about the predator problem ??? ,seeing wolfs and cougars in the wild is like trying to find a record book animal you just don't see them you only see there tracks...

I have always been a firm believer to leave the female animal alone they give birth to twins many of times as you said Andy we have a problem right now with MD doe's..


Wayne, there shouldn't be a sperm shortage problem with a 20 bucks/100 does ratio, that should easily be an adequate number of bucks to get all the fertile does knocked up.

As far as I know the antlerless GOS for elk is planned to continue for 2012.

Re: habitat shortage, keep in mind we're talking about winter range habitat only, which is only a small portion of the overall habitat base.

The deer composition surveys F&W has been doing are what is used to base the buck/doe ratios on. These are not deer counts to determine overall populations, just surveys of a representative sample from several winter range areas to determine buck/doe and fawn/doe ratios. They are pretty accurate. Mule deer are pretty easy to classify from the air when there's snow cover and the crew gets out to do it before the bucks drop their antlers. You might have misunderstood the 1:5 ratio I spoke about, I was talking about bucks:doe ratio, not the sex of the fawns. Fawns are not sexed, there's no point, it's a biological fact that they're going to be roughly 50/50 between male and a female.

I don't think anyone disagrees that we have too many predators, especially wolves. What to do about it seems to be a major conundrum.

[Everett]

Talked to 2 CO,s today they say hunter numbers are way down this year in the EK they were working a roadblock on the Whiteswan road and seemed pretty lonely and cold.

[Fisher-Dude]

Talked to 2 CO,s today they say hunter numbers are way down this year in the EK they were working a roadblock on the Whiteswan road and seemed pretty lonely and cold.


The hunters must all be at Walmart with Husky. :wink:

[Everett]

The hunters must all be at Walmart with Husky. :wink:

As good a theory as I have heard saw one hunter today in an all day road hunt expedition. Hell I actualy saw more CO's than hunters.

[g_worsnop]

what mule deer we have muley deer in the east kootenay can someone please send me a pic or two of a muley buck other than the ones in town ........our mule deer population is in serious trouble opeinging up youth season to any buck and then another month any buck .......come on people sometimes it time to wake up and smell the coffee .................. we have a mule deer crisis in our valley ...................... and with the state of the economy and all its not how we are to help our wildlife its how can we suck another $$$$$$$$$$$$ out of them ,,,,,,,,,,,,my two cents worth
I think you are right, but i am all about trophy quality........ I think four point muley season all season is a great idea!!!

[Fisher-Dude]

I think you are right, but i am all about trophy quality........ I think four point muley season all season is a great idea!!!

What would that do for trophy quality?

[frenchbar]

What would that do for trophy quality?

some will never get it ...

[coach]

some will never get it ...

Yup! Pages and pages of good information from guys who have dedicated years of their time to understanding ungulates and guys completely dismiss them. Things that make you go, "huh?!?"

[frenchbar]

Yup! Pages and pages of good information from guys who have dedicated years of their time to understanding ungulates and guys completely dismiss them. Things that make you go, "huh?!?"

it comes from 'THE ALL ABOUT ME HUNTERS' lets screw the rest of the hunters..sad but true .

[bigben]

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b429/silvertip/DSC04110.jpg A quality deer look like this there are some hunters in B C especially the kootenays that would love to harvest them and they are far and far in between I don t think I have seen one even smaller than this in the last 5 years .......... fellas there is a problem out there ............. I do know with the people around me that eat sleep and breath hunting as a way of life here in the kootenays definately know that our mule deer are hurting and weather its because of the season ,predation and lost habitat something hopefully will be done about it ,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I will leave it to the expert to take care of the hunting for future generation and hopefully it will become better than worse so we can all enjoy our hunting ........... Bono Fortuna to everyone

[hunter1947]

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b429/silvertip/DSC04110.jpg A quality deer look like this there are some hunters in B C especially the kootenays that would love to harvest them and they are far and far in between I don t think I have seen one even smaller than this in the last 5 years .......... fellas there is a problem out there ............. I do know with the people around me that eat sleep and breath hunting as a way of life here in the kootenays definately know that our mule deer are hurting and weather its because of the season ,predation and lost habitat something hopefully will be done about it ,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I will leave it to the expert to take care of the hunting for future generation and hopefully it will become better than worse so we can all enjoy our hunting ........... Bono Fortuna to everyone

That MD has one big rack can you give us a score on him ??? can you put a picture of the head mount from this deer on the site if you got a head mount on him ??? congrats on getting this big old mosey back buck..

[Fisher-Dude]

Some people want to hunt to brag about the size of the deer they got. I hunt to brag about the good times I had with family and friends, the adventure we shared, and the quality deer meat that we put on the dinner table.

Doesn't mean either is wrong, it just means that different people hunt for different reasons. I have nothing to prove to anyone about the size of the animals I harvest.

79% of BC's hunters are first and foremost meat hunters. 18% are selective hunters first, then meat hunters. Only 3% are trophy hunters. We make regulations that manage ungulate populations according to scientific principles and ensure that all hunters have opportunity to meet their needs.



http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e70/Fisher-Dude/HPIM1374.jpg

[frenchbar]

FD ..your making to much sense...are u ill lol ..You forgot the 20% wannabe trophy hunters ...you know the ones that brag it up that their some hotshot trophy hunters ...but still drag them tasty spikes home when nobodys looking lol That would be me .hahaha..

[Weatherby Fan]

FD ..your making to much sense...are u ill lol ..You forgot the 20% wannabe trophy hunters ...you know the ones that brag it up that their some hotshot trophy hunters ...but still drag them tasty spikes home when nobodys looking lol

Dam Frenchbar your on to me,after having some of my son's Oct 2 pt Mulw Deer steaks on the BBQ last week while out Trophy hunting,dam they were good !
I'm guilty and falling fast into this 20% :mrgreen:
But it was a trophy 2 pt judging by the smile on my son's face !

[frenchbar]

we are weak at times W.F LOL Cant beat the young bucks for table fare allright!

[Husky7mm]

Husky7mm, your posts are out to lunch. We typically spend 3-4 weeks hunting the EK and usually a 3-4 weekend mooching around in August. In the last 5 years I can count the number of resident hunters we've bumped into on one hand. We hunt by foot, on horses, trucks, quads what have you and compared to the rest of the province there are very few hunters in the EK unless you're hanging out in the bottom end of the Bull river. We stay the hell away from the cranbrook crowd because as you say often they're all miserable, none of them smile and they think the world's coming to an end. They all think the same, there's definitely something in the water that makes them miserable, complacent and sometimes they seem anti-hunter.



We see lots of MD in all the regular spots, elk like crazy (there are way too many of them), wt deer, sheep, goats, bears, you name it. And even Class IV bucks!! Buddy was out there last week and they were seeing 50-70 MD in a day. He said the most people they saw one weekend was 4..............

Your posts are none sense, try starting off with a bit of reality not "they only counted 3 bucks per 100 does". Quit chasing the gut piles and all the spots where big bucks 'were shot', and lay down some boot leather. It's hard to even read something when it's so outlandish, makes you think of some sort of religous fanatic that has predicted the end of the world.

HEY GG how can hands on experience be out to lunch. STOP SKIM READING WHAT I'M SAYING AND CUTTING AND PASTEING! 3 buck per hundred does. I said 3 buck per 10 does.30 bucks and 100does misleads folks to think they are counting deer by the hundreds.( only elk here get counted that way) Are you drunk. I never said the world was coming to an end or that region 4 mule deer were colapsing. They're just going nowhere. LAY DOWN SOME BOOT LEATHER. How many worn out pairs do you want to see?
I'd like to know where the game in the area you hunt winters, then Tara can counted them and H1947 can scower the hills for 3 weeks strait and pick up all there sheds. Outlandish! Where is this magical spot where nobody hunts and games is everywhere? Are there unicorns and sasquates there? Send me a PM I dont want to ruin the last good spot in the koots.
Anyways they're counting the deer right now and they have extra money this year. Thats good news for a change. I'm sure even you'll argree.

[6616]

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wildlife/wsi/reports/4633_WSI_4633_RPT_2009MULEDEERCOMPOSITION.PDF


http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wildlife/wsi/reports/4633_WSI_4633_RPT_2010.PDF

[Husky7mm]

Talked to 2 CO,s today they say hunter numbers are way down this year in the EK they were working a roadblock on the Whiteswan road and seemed pretty lonely and cold.

Well that is your experience and that was just that day. Everywhere I hunt I saw 5X the amount for people. The further I went the more hunters I saw and less game to boot.
Anyways I dont think any amount of liberal hunting will wipe mulies out. I see little buck way up with sheep and goats. You know not many people will pack out a little buck from so far. People who want to shoot little bucks want it easy they shoot them by the road. Hunter recreation demand is very high in this area. More hunters than mule deer buck by far. 3 mth long season over lapping all the other seasons. Between all factors the mule deer are going no where. This topic will continue until the world end if something doesnt change. Let hunter opportunity fall on the the game that can support the demand. WT and ELK.

Hey Everett
Whats the point of a road block up the swan when only WT is open and most folks are gone home. What a waste. Where were the CO's when the trigger happy SOB's where shooting Cows during the spike season and spikes during the Cow season? (Looser gound checkers) What a waste of money! They just wanted to see what folks were shooting.

[bigben]

Some people want to hunt to brag about the size of the deer they got. I hunt to brag about the good times I had with family and friends, the adventure we shared, and the quality deer meat that we put on the dinner table.

Doesn't mean either is wrong, it just means that different people hunt for different reasons. I have nothing to prove to anyone about the size of the animals I harvest.

79% of BC's hunters are first and foremost meat hunters. 18% are selective hunters first, then meat hunters. Only 3% are trophy hunters. We make regulations that manage ungulate populations according to scientific principles and ensure that all hunters have opportunity to meet their needs.



http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e70/Fisher-Dude/HPIM1374.jpg

You know something I knew this is the exact comment that I was going to hear from you ,,,,,,,,,,,point well taken and I did my part this year I let 5 spikes three two points and a couple of small 3 x4 s go so you can enjoy your hunting oppurtunity now how about letting me enjoy hunting a respectable buck of about 150 or so that I can enjoy a challenge to harvesting a mature mule deer species .........I do believe your missing my point the mule deer population is hurting and I beleive all my time and my buddies time in the east kootenay hunting this species tell me there is .......Bouno Fortuna

PS so you say everything is great according to your scientific data maybe you should have a late season form the 15 to 30 of november and I will be able to hunt my opputunity and make it 4 point or better season on that then you ll be happy Fisher Dude with your meat hunting expedition and family memories and I with hunting memories of presuing and harvesting a mature species of a mule deer .

[Weatherby Fan]

HUsky7mm
I didn't get to the Kootenay's this year due to work which was to bad as I do enjoy hunting there,
I bet if you polled every hunter that the goes to area 4 to hunt from other parts of the Province most would say it's for Elk,Moose,Goats,Sheep and even WT before Mule Deer hunting,I live to hunt Mule Deer but when we go to Cranbrook we hunt Elk and WT Deer,

My Brother was there for 10 days and did take a MD Buck up in the Alpine,he said there was lots of MD deer around but only at first and last light,most were on the dark or north sides of the hills in the thick shit.
With the smoking hot late summer we had which carried into Oct I really think most of the animals were acting different this year all over the southern half of the Province,probably until we got some serious snow falls this last week,
Sometime you just have to change tactics a bit depending on the season,I still believe we have healthy Mule Deer populations all over the Province

The area I hunt religiously in area 3 usually by mid Nov holds a good number of Mature MD Bucks,not this year hardly a deer to be seen so I had to swith areas b4 I started to see any Bucks of size,after moving I got onto six different 4 pts in 2 days,and Im sure when I go back next week with all the snow weve had in the last while it will be different again,or back to normal I hope.

Don't get discouraged over one season being so different,I see there was lots of moaning and groaning about no Elk early on in Sept up your way also with that hot weather.

WF

[Husky7mm]

Hi WF
I live for mulie hunting, this year was tough, so was last year and the year before..... I've hunted the highest peaks and the lowest valleys and everything in between. I've read every book and article on them both local and otherplaces. I have hunted the thick crap and crawled my way up alder chock shoots to get up into remote basins. I've waded and post holed though waist deep snow and chained up and tracked up just to hunt to the last day. All this time virtually ignoring elk and WT hunting just to spend one more day hunting mulies. YOu know what I turned up over the last 6 yrs. Small bucks, young bucks no older then 3-4 yrs old. Thats the age there making it too. Only a misinformed fool would travel here to hunt just for a trophy mule deer exclusively. I saw more trophy bucks in 3 days on the gang during a heavy snow yr than here in 6 yrs.
I would bet money everyone who comes here to hunt comes here for everything but mule deer, BUT they all have a tag in their pocket and they shoot what they come across, and it goes on for 3 mths straight, I'm sure every MD deer I've ever past up has been harvested. TOO much recreactional demand. Not enough Mule deer. Let them recover, do something to help them.

[Fisher-Dude]

You know something I knew this is the exact comment that I was going to hear from you ,,,,,,,,,,,point well taken and I did my part this year I let 5 spikes three two points and a couple of small 3 x4 s go so you can enjoy your hunting oppurtunity now how about letting me enjoy hunting a respectable buck of about 150 or so that I can enjoy a challenge to harvesting a mature mule deer species .........I do believe your missing my point the mule deer population is hurting and I beleive all my time and my buddies time in the east kootenay hunting this species tell me there is .......Bouno Fortuna

PS so you say everything is great according to your scientific data maybe you should have a late season form the 15 to 30 of november and I will be able to hunt my opputunity and make it 4 point or better season on that then you ll be happy Fisher Dude with your meat hunting expedition and family memories and I with hunting memories of presuing and harvesting a mature species of a mule deer .


The guys you hunted elk with this year took a couple of 3 year old mule bucks in the past few years from St Marys. Did you rag on them about their choice of game? Did you want them to go without? Do you want to legislate away their ability to shoot a deer? If there are no deer, how did two out-of-towners find them?

Lots of questions, few answers.

You're just looking to have a season where you see no one else in the bush. That's exactly what will kill off hunting for ALL BCers if we go down that path.

Not sure what a "mature species of mule deer" is, but I guess it must be some distinct scientific wonder from all other mule deer.

[OutWest]

Everywhere I hunt I saw 5X the amount for people. The further I went the more hunters I saw and less game to boot.

The only hunter I saw all year was Mark! Saw tons of game too. Looks like you need a new spot fella.

[Husky7mm]

So you were hunting mule deer in 4:20 4:06 4:05 4:03 4:04 4:21? Your right these area's don't usually hold a tonne of game and thoughout the season receive very little hunting pressure if your in the right spot:confused: How about some directions to that whitetail haven up in friutvale. :razz: Look like a pretty good supply for an army of hunters, should be never ending :? post it up on HBC *****

[twodog]

Two trips to regions 3-5-8, one last week and the other mid October. Talked to the CO this weekend and he said this is the worst he has seen in close to 20 years. He said we have a Predator problem and the balance is away out of sync. His very words. He said one game check in a good location saw only 2 bucks come thru in the 3 day long weekend this month. Pretty sad state of affairs. Northern Vancouver Island had the same problem approx. 15 years ago and they turned it around. Hopefully whoever is in charge has the brains and ba--s to correct things. Now is the time for them to earn their pay.

[GoatGuy]

Hi WF
I live for mulie hunting, this year was tough, so was last year and the year before..... I've hunted the highest peaks and the lowest valleys and everything in between. I've read every book and article on them both local and otherplaces. I have hunted the thick crap and crawled my way up alder chock shoots to get up into remote basins. I've waded and post holed though waist deep snow and chained up and tracked up just to hunt to the last day. All this time virtually ignoring elk and WT hunting just to spend one more day hunting mulies. YOu know what I turned up over the last 6 yrs. Small bucks, young bucks no older then 3-4 yrs old. Thats the age there making it too. Only a misinformed fool would travel here to hunt just for a trophy mule deer exclusively. I saw more trophy bucks in 3 days on the gang during a heavy snow yr than here in 6 yrs.
I would bet money everyone who comes here to hunt comes here for everything but mule deer, BUT they all have a tag in their pocket and they shoot what they come across, and it goes on for 3 mths straight, I'm sure every MD deer I've ever past up has been harvested. TOO much recreactional demand. Not enough Mule deer. Let them recover, do something to help them.
We go out there every year surrounding Nov long weekend exclusively for MD. We harvest 3-4+ year old bucks and there have been plenty in the 160-180 range + a few bigger.

They are out there!!! And I can tell you there are spots that are seeing mule deer at their highest since the die-offs in the 90s.

Overall, it's no surprise mule deer are down. It's no surprise most hunters don't see big bucks. If the objective is to increase the number of mule deer and the number of class IVs you better start looking at the habitat. I can promise you that is the only way you'll see long-term change in the EK. Predator control and changing hunting seasons won't solve the problem of forest ingrowth for a species that evolved in open habitat. Just like in regions 3, 5 and 8, when you have fire suppression in a fire maintained ecosystem the native species will dwindle over time.

[GoatGuy]

HEY GG how can hands on experience be out to lunch. STOP SKIM READING WHAT I'M SAYING AND CUTTING AND PASTEING! 3 buck per hundred does. I said 3 buck per 10 does.30 bucks and 100does misleads folks to think they are counting deer by the hundreds.( only elk here get counted that way) Are you drunk. I never said the world was coming to an end or that region 4 mule deer were colapsing. They're just going nowhere. LAY DOWN SOME BOOT LEATHER. How many worn out pairs do you want to see?
I'd like to know where the game in the area you hunt winters, then Tara can counted them and H1947 can scower the hills for 3 weeks strait and pick up all there sheds. Outlandish! Where is this magical spot where nobody hunts and games is everywhere? Are there unicorns and sasquates there? Send me a PM I dont want to ruin the last good spot in the koots.
Anyways they're counting the deer right now and they have extra money this year. Thats good news for a change. I'm sure even you'll argree.

Should have read this first - funny. We've pointed lots of folks in to the areas we hunt and taken lots of new hunters in. Dont mean to offend but you don't really seem to fit the profile. Different frame of mind. We're happy to see hunters and happy if someone else harvests an animal. Very different from the "don't hunt my spots, shoot my animals and don't wave to me because all I'll do is scowl back."

Rather see the money go in to burns/enhancement than monitoring, especially when it comes to MD. Wouldn't be surprised if we found buck:doe ratios below 20:100 but it still wouldn't have anything to do with conservation and any changes in seasons wouldn't increase the population.

[bigben]

We go out there every year surrounding Nov long weekend exclusively for MD. We harvest 3-4+ year old bucks and there have been plenty in the 160-180 range + a few bigger.

They are out there!!! And I can tell you there are spots that are seeing mule deer at their highest since the die-offs in the 90s.

Overall, it's no surprise mule deer are down. It's no surprise most hunters don't see big bucks. If the objective is to increase the number of mule deer and the number of class IVs you better start looking at the habitat. I can promise you that is the only way you'll see long-term change in the EK. Predator control and changing hunting seasons won't solve the problem of forest ingrowth for a species that evolved in open habitat. Just like in regions 3, 5 and 8, when you have fire suppression in a fire maintained ecosystem the native species will dwindle over time.
Did I hear that clearly suprise mule deer are down,,,,,,,,,,exactly what I said we have a crisis in the kootenays ..........next year go somewhere else to hunt muleys so I can find my one needle in the haystack .........and also take me along so I can shoot one of your 160 class muleys that your continuing to see so I can take a picture with you and then all three of us Fisher Dude you and myself can take a picture of the two point that Fisher Dude harvests in the hunting for oppurtunities ,,,,,,,,,funny I met a guy in the store two weeks ago and he said the same thing and I have to agree with you without the animals to hunt you will watch Cody Robbins and is allstar crew shooting world class muleys on private land ,,,,,,,,,,,,good day to you sir and as JOHN WAYNE said I am sticking to my guns ,,,,,,,,

[bigben]

The guys you hunted elk with this year took a couple of 3 year old mule bucks in the past few years from St Marys. Did you rag on them about their choice of game? Did you want them to go without? Do you want to legislate away their ability to shoot a deer? If there are no deer, how did two out-of-towners find them?

Lots of questions, few answers.

You're just looking to have a season where you see no one else in the bush. That's exactly what will kill off hunting for ALL BCers if we go down that path.

Not sure what a "mature species of mule deer" is, but I guess it must be some distinct scientific wonder from all other mule deer.


I guess your missinformed two of those bucks where inthe 160 class and other two was by there choice not mine so I guess I have to lose three hunting partners because I have an opinion that I don t want to shoot immature muleys give your head a shake ................... , and again I am telling you that I am not for this season I would of kept it to a four point restriction ,,,,,,,,,,,,and again I did my part in letting you and your buddies shot the immature muleys that I suspect would grow into mature bucks that some people here in the kootenays would like to continue to hunt ........nobody else in the bush lots of elk and whitetaill for your hunting opputunities leave the mules alone for awhile until the species comes back at a repectable level Have a nice day Goatguy and feel free to come for coffee so my fingers will not get numb from dicussing this topic with you

[GoatGuy]

Did I hear that clearly suprise mule deer are down,,,,,,,,,,exactly what I said we have a crisis in the kootenays ..........next year go somewhere else to hunt muleys so I can find my one needle in the haystack .........and also take me along so I can shoot one of your 160 class muleys that your continuing to see so I can take a picture with you and then all three of us Fisher Dude you and myself can take a picture of the two point that Fisher Dude harvests in the hunting for oppurtunities ,,,,,,,,,funny I met a guy in the store two weeks ago and he said the same thing and I have to agree with you without the animals to hunt you will watch Cody Robbins and is allstar crew shooting world class muleys on private land ,,,,,,,,,,,,good day to you sir and as JOHN WAYNE said I am sticking to my guns ,,,,,,,,

They are down, it isn't a crisis, and in the long run mule deer will continue to decline. In the long-term you'll find the same thing with most ungulates in the EK. Ingrowth, increased development on winter range, fenced tracts of property which fragment critical habitat and highway traffic will all contribute to this.

Changing hunting seasons won't help that, neither will an occasional dose of predator control, but that's what all the locals will complain about like they do now.

Why worry about the big picture when we call all point fingers at each other and worry about the things that won't make a difference? Plenty of that around.

[GoatGuy]

I guess your missinformed two of those bucks where inthe 160 class and other two was by there choice not mine so I guess I have to lose three hunting partners because I have an opinion that I don t want to shoot immature muleys give your head a shake ................... , and again I am telling you that I am not for this season I would of kept it to a four point restriction ,,,,,,,,,,,,and again I did my part in letting you and your buddies shot the immature muleys that I suspect would grow into mature bucks that some people here in the kootenays would like to continue to hunt ........nobody else in the bush lots of elk and whitetaill for your hunting opputunities leave the mules alone for awhile until the species comes back at a repectable level Have a nice day Goatguy and feel free to come for coffee so my fingers will not get numb from dicussing this topic with you

4 pt restriction will result in fewer big bucks, anybody that has their nose in mule deer management knows that, so do the guys who consistently shoot big bucks. Seems your take is more about killing a big buck than it is about mule deer - that is unfortunate.

[bigben]

They are down, it isn't a crisis, and in the long run mule deer will continue to decline. In the long-term you'll find the same thing with most ungulates in the EK. Ingrowth, increased development on winter range, fenced tracts of property which fragment critical habitat and highway traffic will all contribute to this.

Changing hunting seasons won't help that, neither will an occasional dose of predator control, but that's what all the locals will complain about like they do now.

Why worry about the big picture when we call all point fingers at each other and worry about the things that won't make a difference? Plenty of that around.

Point well taken and lets see where our future goes from here on the wildlife of B C ,,,,,,, if you get a chance put up some of your pictures of a decent 150 buck that you have harvested every in here in the kootenays ..........Happy hunting

[happyhunter]

What we have are hunters shooting 4 pts, hunters shooting any buck, and predators killing anything. The buck:doe ratio might be good enough to get all the does pregnant but predators are going to take some of those does, take some of those bucks, and a shitload of the fawns... then the population as a whole drops off. We shoot small bucks, then we don't see them as larger bucks the following year, and were seeing fewer small bucks as well as the fawns are getting picked off. Were loosing our breeding population of MD across all ages and there aren't enough fawns to replace them at a sustainable rate. IMO predators are a much bigger factor then habitat loss. There is a lot of country out here to support a higher mule deer population then what we have.

[6616]

There is a lot of country out here to support a higher mule deer population then what we have.

That's what it seems like in the summer and fall, but what about winter? Winter range areas are only a very small portion of the overall habitat and all that habitat ones sees in the summer and fall is completely useless to deer in mid-winter. Ungulate winter range is at a premium in the East Kootenay. It's being pounded by cows, homesteader elk and white tailed deer all summer, and is losing suitability due to over-grazing and the spread of invasive and noxious weeds. Ungulate winter range is also shrinking at an incredible rate due to forest ingrowth. Currently more than 10% of ungulate winter range in the EK is behind exclusion fences. Neary 45% of ungulate winter range in the EK is private land. Nearly half the ungulate winter range on Crown Land has been impacted by forest ingrowth and encroachment. If we spent as much energy and time bitching and writing letters to government officials about habitat maintenance as we do bitching and argueing with each other about regulations maybe something might get done.

[Everett]

Well that is your experience and that was just that day. Everywhere I hunt I saw 5X the amount for people. The further I went the more hunters I saw and less game to boot.
Anyways I dont think any amount of liberal hunting will wipe mulies out. I see little buck way up with sheep and goats. You know not many people will pack out a little buck from so far. People who want to shoot little bucks want it easy they shoot them by the road. Hunter recreation demand is very high in this area. More hunters than mule deer buck by far. 3 mth long season over lapping all the other seasons. Between all factors the mule deer are going no where. This topic will continue until the world end if something doesnt change. Let hunter opportunity fall on the the game that can support the demand. WT and ELK.

Hey Everett
Whats the point of a road block up the swan when only WT is open and most folks are gone home. What a waste. Where were the CO's when the trigger happy SOB's where shooting Cows during the spike season and spikes during the Cow season? (Looser gound checkers) What a waste of money! They just wanted to see what folks were shooting.

Two CO's to boot not sure what they were looking for I assumed something specific had a young dog with them as well. I to would have liked a bigger presence join the cow season especialy the senior/junior season.
Saw 5 hunters today busiest day I have had this month but was huntin Caven area so I exspected busy.

[Fisher-Dude]

I guess your missinformed two of those bucks where inthe 160 class and other two was by there choice not mine so I guess I have to lose three hunting partners because I have an opinion that I don t want to shoot immature muleys give your head a shake ................... , and again I am telling you that I am not for this season I would of kept it to a four point restriction ,,,,,,,,,,,,and again I did my part in letting you and your buddies shot the immature muleys that I suspect would grow into mature bucks that some people here in the kootenays would like to continue to hunt ........nobody else in the bush lots of elk and whitetaill for your hunting opputunities leave the mules alone for awhile until the species comes back at a repectable level Have a nice day Goatguy and feel free to come for coffee so my fingers will not get numb from dicussing this topic with you


What would shooting off all the 3 year old four points do to help you get a big buck?

My out-of-town buddies come over for a week and shoot a 160 class buck every year - what's your excuse as a local for not getting one? They probably would have smacked a couple more this year but they dumped two 6 point elk and went home because it was too hot. :wink:

Maybe some guys can't get it done so they blame the deer season for killing off all "their" bucks?

[358mag]

We go out there every year surrounding Nov long weekend exclusively for MD. We harvest 3-4+ year old bucks and there have been plenty in the 160-180 range + a few bigger.

They are out there!!! And I can tell you there are spots that are seeing mule deer at their highest since the die-offs in the 90s.

Overall, it's no surprise mule deer are down. It's no surprise most hunters don't see big bucks. If the objective is to increase the number of mule deer and the number of class IVs you better start looking at the habitat. I can promise you that is the only way you'll see long-term change in the EK. Predator control and changing hunting seasons won't solve the problem of forest ingrowth for a species that evolved in open habitat. Just like in regions 3, 5 and 8, when you have fire suppression in a fire maintained ecosystem the native species will dwindle over time.
Without 'pictures" this thread is useless

[BCrams]

He isn't kidding. I've seen one of the bucks taken in the not too distant past and its a near 200" non-typical ... great buck.

[hunter1947]

My thoughts if you shot a big percentage of your army off that you have then whats left to fight ,regarding the EK same goes for MD I saw a hand full of small MD bucks shot this year in my area I hunted as far as I am concerned these are the up coming new recruitment to our MD stocks right now with the predator problem targeting any mule deer as for most hunters taking any buck for 31 days this has really cut into the numbers of bucks that are out there ,my vote is to go back to 4 point season for 2012 ????

[Fisher-Dude]

My thoughts if you shot a big percentage of your army off that you have then whats left to fight ,regarding the EK same goes for MD I saw a hand full of small MD bucks shot this year in my area I hunted as far as I am concerned these are the up coming new recruitment to our MD stocks right now with the predator problem targeting any mule deer as for most hunters taking any buck for 31 days this has really cut into the numbers of bucks that are out there ,my vote is to go back to 4 point season for 2012 ????

Why would you shoot all the generals off?

And how much fight would your army have if you didn't have any food for them?

The any buck season has NOT affected the deer numbers. You must understand that, and look at the real solutions, which are habitat, competition from elk and WT, and predators, and decide which of those 3 things we have the resources to deal with.

[bigben]

That's what it seems like in the summer and fall, but what about winter? Winter range areas are only a very small portion of the overall habitat and all that habitat ones sees in the summer and fall is completely useless to deer in mid-winter. Ungulate winter range is at a premium in the East Kootenay. It's being pounded by cows, homesteader elk and white tailed deer all summer, and is losing suitability due to over-grazing and the spread of invasive and noxious weeds. Ungulate winter range is also shrinking at an incredible rate due to forest ingrowth. Currently more than 10% of ungulate winter range in the EK is behind exclusion fences. Neary 45% of ungulate winter range in the EK is private land. Nearly half the ungulate winter range on Crown Land has been impacted by forest ingrowth and encroachment. If we spent as much energy and time bitching and writing letters to government officials about habitat maintenance as we do bitching and argueing with each other about regulations maybe something might get done.

Best damn post to date on this subject so the mule deer are in trouble big time

[hunter1947]

Why would you shoot all the generals off?

And how much fight would your army have if you didn't have any food for them?

The any buck season has NOT affected the deer numbers. You must understand that, and look at the real solutions, which are habitat, competition from elk and WT, and predators, and decide which of those 3 things we have the resources to deal with.

Pat the general's are smarter then the privates thats why they got to be general's the privates get shot the General's don't get shot as much :mrgreen:..

[coach]

Best damn post to date on this subject so the mule deer are in trouble big time

You read all that good info and this is what you come up with? What are you going to do with respect to the habitat? Are you accepting that bitching about regulations is doing nothing to help?

[coach]

Pat the general's are smarter then the privates that why they got to be general's the privates get shot the General's don't get shot as much :mrgreen:..

Is that why they are harder to find?

[bigben]

[QUOTE=bigben;1023914]I believe I agree with all of what 6616 says and yes bitching about regulation changes should make a differance on population growth or reduction of the species in this case being mule deer by the season put out there ,,,,,,,,,and about habitat I am with a club that donates thousands of dollars annually to preserve range habitat for all ungulates example the silvertip ranch in the bull river and numerous others .

[hunter1947]

Is that why they are harder to find?

You got it.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Is that why they are harder to find?


You got it.

So you're saying they are there but just harder to find?


SSS

[coach]

So you're saying they are there but just harder to find?


SSS


Makes for a good argument..

[happyhunter]

That's what it seems like in the summer and fall, but what about winter? Winter range areas are only a very small portion of the overall habitat and all that habitat ones sees in the summer and fall is completely useless to deer in mid-winter. Ungulate winter range is at a premium in the East Kootenay. It's being pounded by cows, homesteader elk and white tailed deer all summer, and is losing suitability due to over-grazing and the spread of invasive and noxious weeds. Ungulate winter range is also shrinking at an incredible rate due to forest ingrowth. Currently more than 10% of ungulate winter range in the EK is behind exclusion fences. Neary 45% of ungulate winter range in the EK is private land. Nearly half the ungulate winter range on Crown Land has been impacted by forest ingrowth and encroachment. If we spent as much energy and time bitching and writing letters to government officials about habitat maintenance as we do bitching and argueing with each other about regulations maybe something might get done.

The mule deer winter higher then the elk and whitetails, also they eat different food. When we talk about habitat we are talking about how much food and space is available right? I have yet to see a skinny animal here in the koots which leaves me to believe there is plenty of food out there for them.

[coach]

I have yet to see a skinny animal here in the koots which leaves me to believe there is plenty of food out there for them.

Are you talking about October/November or March/April? Or are the deer just big and fat year round in the Koots?

[coach]

[QUOTE=bigben;1023914]I believe I agree with all of what 6616 says and yes bitching about regulation changes should make a differance on population growth or reduction of the species in this case being mule deer by the season put out there ,,,,,,,,,and about habitat I am with a club that donates thousands of dollars annually to preserve range habitat for all ungulates example the silvertip ranch in the bull river and numerous others .

IMO, Spelling is overrated, but a little punctuation and capitalization would make your posts a lot easier to comprehend. I can't understand if you are agreeing or disagreeing with 6616.

[CanuckShooter]

The mule deer winter higher then the elk and whitetails, also they eat different food. When we talk about habitat we are talking about how much food and space is available right? I have yet to see a skinny animal here in the koots which leaves me to believe there is plenty of food out there for them.

Maybe the wolves just prefer to eat mule deer?

[6616]

The mule deer winter higher then the elk and whitetails, also they eat different food.

Not exclusively, it depends on snow pack depth and if there's a hard crust, winter severity in general, range conditions prior to the onset of winter, and the variety of forage species available. Did you check out the paper I linked to on niche partitioning?

[6616]

so the mule deer are in trouble big time

Never said that. The ungulate winter range habitat is in trouble generally speaking, which eventually and over the long-term will mean trouble for all ungulate species if we don't do something about it.

[Husky7mm]

Should have read this first - funny. We've pointed lots of folks in to the areas we hunt and taken lots of new hunters in. Dont mean to offend but you don't really seem to fit the profile. Different frame of mind. We're happy to see hunters and happy if someone else harvests an animal. Very different from the "don't hunt my spots, shoot my animals and don't wave to me because all I'll do is scowl back."

Rather see the money go in to burns/enhancement than monitoring, especially when it comes to MD. Wouldn't be surprised if we found buck:doe ratios below 20:100 but it still wouldn't have anything to do with conservation and any changes in seasons wouldn't increase the population.

Well I am actually a very nice guy, we just have a differnet veiw on the Region 4 mule deer. Actually I can really on state what I am seeing in the the south EK and a bit of 4-6. But this isnt for 2-3 weeks of the year in one area, its 12 mth straight. I "hunt" mule deer all year long. And I care very deeply about their well being. Based on what I have seen, and I am out all the time, (obviously not where you are hunting), their future doesnt have a positive outlook where I am looking. I can not talk for the units I have never hunted so again that would be mostly the south part of the EK.
Its bring me great joy to see a dad and his kids hauling a little buck out together or seeing someone get there first deer, I even lend them a hand if I see they need one. However do I think everyhunter should have free run at whatever they want. NO WAY. Nothing worth pursueing is easy.
Anyways GG I get the feeling that if your hunting mulies in November and your not seeing tonnes of hunters your not anywhere near the trench. Are you hunting the southern EK? Are we even taking about the same area's? Can you comment on the areas that you spend no time in.
BTW I am sure everyone would love to see some pictures once in a while.:-D
You have mistaken my passion for the well been of mule deer in my home units as somthing its not. I'm not jumping down peoples throats, and degrading the on public forums. I see what I see and I have a tonne of exposer to it. I also talk with any BIO I can, many even agree with me.:shock:

[mark]

Sounds like the east koots needs a good fire, and hopefully burn all the wolves in the process! :-D

[Husky7mm]

Sounds like the east koots needs a good fire, and hopefully burn all the wolves in the process! :-D

lol Some of the fires that happened here were put out before it could burn up all the crap. Now its just acres and acres of trees touching each other intermingled with blown down, hardly an imporvement. They should have let it burn more. I would like to here more about this re-burn stuff. Sound like what we need.

[6616]

lol Some of the fires that happened here were put out before it could burn up all the crap. Now its just acres and acres of trees touching each other intermingled with blown down, hardly an imporvement. They should have let it burn more. I would like to here more about this re-burn stuff. Sound like what we need.

There are sites in the EK winter range where ingrowth is as thick as 13,000 stems per ha, a big buck or bull elk would have difficulty just walking through it. They are stagnated non-merchantable stands, not growing, not producing fibre or providing ungulate habitat, good habitat for squirrels and pine martin. They have to be mechanically thinned before one dares light a fire, if a fire ever got started on one of those sites you'd see some extreme heat and some mighty high flames, everything including the soil would be fried..!

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/File0008.jpg

[d6dan]

6616, that definately needs to be burnt off. In 4-23 they brought in D9 cats and mowed that crap off, back in the late 80's and pushed it in piles to be burnt. Now they have a newly planted forest that will sustain ungulates alot better than before..Sometimes, you just have to help mother nature get'er done alot sooner..

[happyhunter]

Not exclusively, it depends on snow pack depth and if there's a hard crust, winter severity in general, range conditions prior to the onset of winter, and the variety of forage species available. Did you check out the paper I linked to on niche partitioning?

I did. Some of that stuff is just over my head. More education needed on my part. Im just talking about what I see and what I hear about from experienced guys who I trust. Im ok with being wrong about some things. Im just trying to get educated on this issue.

[6616]

I did. Some of that stuff is just over my head. More education needed on my part. Im just talking about what I see and what I hear about from experienced guys who I trust. Im ok with being wrong about some things. Im just trying to get educated on this issue.

You're not totally wrong hh, it's just that with wildlife nothing is ever really finite but is often only a general rule, and when conditions are right or forage and space are limited there are often significant exceptions. You will have noted in the paper that niche partitions are often not firm but usually partial, weak under some conditions, strong under others.

[6616]

6616, that definately needs to be burnt off. In 4-23 they brought in D9 cats and mowed that crap off, back in the late 80's and pushed it in piles to be burnt. Now they have a newly planted forest that will sustain ungulates alot better than before..Sometimes, you just have to help mother nature get'er done alot sooner..

The big dozers are a much better option than a wildfire in an area like that as a fire would be totally uncontrollable.
Was that Crestbrook/Tembec that did that work?

[GoatGuy]

Without 'pictures" this thread is useless
watch your pretty little mouth or I'll start posting pics up of deer in your hunting spots!!

Posting pics of dead ones is one thing, but imagine the hords that would show up if they saw pics of live ones?

[GoatGuy]

The mule deer winter higher then the elk and whitetails, also they eat different food. When we talk about habitat we are talking about how much food and space is available right? I have yet to see a skinny animal here in the koots which leaves me to believe there is plenty of food out there for them.

No, the mule deer don't necessarily winter higher then elk and white-tailed deer. There are areas where they overlap, or used to overlap but mule deer have often been pushed out by their inability to compete with white-tailed deer, elk and cattle.

The white-tailed deer in the southern part of the EK are the smallest white-tailed deer I've seen in the province. There's a big difference between starving and eating well. Can tell you in the areas with high productivity (eg fires) you don't find spike mule deer, they're all two points. You see mule deer does with twins far more often, you see yearling and two year old 4 point bucks regularly.

[sparky300winmag]

Where i hunt in 4-24, 4-25 the total number of bucks this year is way down compared to the last couple of years. Didn't see a 4 pt mulie all season and i put in hundreds of hours . When the snow fell i saw predator tracks on every road. I saw two huge cougers in 3 weeks. I don't know exactly why the buck numbers were down , but hope next year its different.

[358mag]

watch your pretty little mouth or I'll start posting pics up of deer in your hunting spots!!

Posting pics of dead ones is one thing, but imagine the hords that would show up if they saw pics of live ones?
Don't worry GG that pandora's box has be opened for a few years the hords ie gut pile hunters -INTERNET junkies know all about then ,that why as Colonel Sanders once said don't put all your egg's in the same basket

[bigben]

[QUOTE=bigben;1023917]

IMO, Spelling is overrated, but a little punctuation and capitalization would make your posts a lot easier to comprehend. I can't understand if you are agreeing or disagreeing with 6616.

Yes I agree with 6610

Regulation changes should be four point or better look what it has done for our elk and if you do remember our DeMarchi years when the elk took a pounding in the trench three points and better and Bob Forbes came in after him and implemented a six point season only and still exist today along with the west kootenays for the last two seasons and everyone is having fun hunting elk and achieving great success at it could this possibly happen to our mule deer if there was a four point restriction implemented

I do contribute to wildlife and rangeland enhancement projects and do care of the state of our mule deer population

I will say that we are talking about the kootenays here not any other region in B C

[coach]

Certainly as far as mule deer hunting goes, we're not shooting does in Region 4 to start with and since recruitment is the key and there's not a sperm shortage (the does are already all getting knocked up), curtailing the buck harvest is going to have no impact what-so-ever and will not stop the decline.

.




Yes I agree with 6610

Regulation changes should be four point or better..

I'm still confused, bigben.

[bigben]

[QUOTE=6616;1023507]That's what it seems like in the summer and fall, but what about winter? Winter range areas are only a very small portion of the overall habitat and all that habitat ones sees in the summer and fall is completely useless to deer in mid-winter. Ungulate winter range is at a premium in the East Kootenay. It's being pounded by cows, homesteader elk and white tailed deer all summer, and is losing suitability due to over-grazing and the spread of invasive and noxious weeds. Ungulate winter range is also shrinking at an incredible rate due to forest ingrowth. Currently more than 10% of ungulate winter range in the EK is behind exclusion fences. Neary 45% of ungulate winter range in the EK is private land. Nearly half the ungulate winter range on Crown Land has been impacted by forest ingrowth and encroachment.


Let me clear up your confusion Coach this is what I am agreeing on the statement made by 6616

If this is what your regional biologist I am assuming this is where he is getting his information is telling him then why are we shooting any buck for only a month then going to four point restriction for 15 days from the message I am getting from everyone here is the mule deer are not in trouble then why don t the ministry leave it open for any buck all season long ..............as for antler restrictions as I said before our elk herd are thriving and we have a six point antler restriction

Hope this clears things up for ya

[6616]

[QUOTE=coach;1023950]
Regulation changes should be four point or better look what it has done for our elk and if you do remember our DeMarchi years when the elk took a pounding in the trench three points and better and Bob Forbes came in after him and implemented a six point season only and still exist today along with the west kootenays for the last two seasons and everyone is having fun hunting elk and achieving great success at it could this possibly happen to our mule deer if there was a four point restriction implemented

I do contribute to wildlife and rangeland enhancement projects and do care of the state of our mule deer population

I will say that we are talking about the kootenays here not any other region in B C

The 3pt bull elk season was obviously very sustainable prior to the mid '80's, at least the elk herd kept expanding right up until it was halted by the huge antlerless kills of '86, '87, and '88 took place. And just for the record Ray Demarchi was ordered to reduce the elk population by 30% in 1985 by the Minister of the day who reacted to pressure from cattlemen, the huge numbers of LEH antlerless authorizations were not Ray's idea. If you had a set of 1984 hunting regulations you would see that Ray introduced a low elevation antlerless hunt in 1984 similar to today's x-zone hunts, and that program would have worked if it would have been given a chance. It was political interference that led to that whole fiasco.

The 6pt season didn't come about until after the '96/'97 winter die-off and elk numbers were at an all time low, it certainly wasn't because Bob Forbes knew something Ray didn't, he was backed into a corner with a very depleted elk population. There are severe risks to good genetics by using antler restrictions if they're not needed to restrict the harvest, and we're running that risk with elk right now. If you think the elk herds are booming because of the 6pt season you're badly mistaken. Growth or declines in ungulate herds rarely have anything to do with bull/buck harvest rates and have everything to do with female survival and fawn/calf survival rates.

WE had a 4pt only mule deer season for many years before last fall, did it do any good? If the mule deer are "going no where", it all didn't happen in one year because of a one month any buck season, the decline was well underway before that, the 4pt only season wasn't doing anything for the mule deer population at all. Like I said 100 times now the only thing that would have made a difference was higher recruitment and fawn survival, has squat to do with buck harvests.

Keep in mind the same risks to genetics exits with antler restrictions on deer as it does on elk. These will eventually weaken the best genetics for big antlers and lower trophy potential.

[bigben]

[QUOTE=bigben;1024578]

The 3pt bull elk season was obviously very sustainable prior to the mid '80's, at least the elk herd kept expanding right up until it was halted by the huge antlerless kills of '86, '87, and '88 took place. And just for the record Ray Demarchi was ordered to reduce the elk population by 30% in 1985 by the Minister of the day who reacted to pressure from cattlemen, the huge numbers of LEH antlerless authorizations were not Ray's idea. If you had a set of 1984 hunting regulations you would see that Ray introduced a low elevation antlerless hunt in 1984 similar to today's x-zone hunts, and that program would have worked if it would have been given a chance. It was political interference that led to that whole fiasco.

The 6pt season didn't come about until after the '96/'97 winter die-off and elk numbers were at an all time low, it certainly wasn't because Bob Forbes knew something Ray didn't, he was backed into a corner with a very depleted elk population. There are severe risks to good genetics by using antler restrictions if they're not needed to restrict the harvest, and we're running that risk with elk right now. If you think the elk herds are booming because of the 6pt season you're badly mistaken. Growth or declines in ungulate herds rarely have anything to do with bull/buck harvest rates and have evrything to do with female survival and fawn/calf survival rates.

WE had a 4pt only mule deer season for many years before last fall, did it do any good? If the mule deer are "going no where", it all didn't happen in one year because of a one month any buck season, the decline was well underway before that, the 4pt only season wasn't doing anything for the mule deer population at all. Like I said 100 times now the only thing that would have made a difference was higher recruitment and fawn survival, has squat to do with buck harvests.

Keep in mind the same risks to genetics exits with antler restrictions on deer as it does on elk. These will eventually weaken the best genetics for big antlers and lower trophy potential.

Thanxs for taking the time in sharing your views 6616 they are well taken and makes me ponder some off my views on this matter

[hunter1947]

Over all what I see in posts on this thread for the decline of mule deer are ,predator ,low elevation land fenced off ,habitat ,fawn survival rate ,MD doe at low numbers ,my question is what is management going to do about it in years to come ???? :confused:.

[6616]

Over all what I see in posts on this thread for the decline of mule deer are ,predator ,low elevation land fenced off ,habitat ,fawn survival rate ,MD doe at low numbers ,my question is what is management going to do about it in years to come ???? :confused:.

Here's what I think they will/are doing:

Management is attempting to lower the WTD and elk populations with the LEH and GOS antlerless seasons, this will reduce direct competition and over-grazing pressure on the low elevation habitat.

The eco-system restoration program is well organized and the Rocky Mountain Forest District program is the most advanced and most active one in the province.
This program is treating 1000 to 3000 Ha of low elevation fire-maintained eco-systems annually, but is currently behind on the burning program. There is a potential solution for that pending.

I'm confident management will adjust buck seasons as required based on buck/doe ratios and will not be allowing any harvest of antlerless mule deer.
Buck season adjustments will be based on scientific evidence gathered from composition surveys and not on anecdotal information from hunters.

Don't forget this is not just an EK or BC problem, on average mule deer have been in decline for 20 years now all across the Pacific-northwestern states and provinces. There's probably some other factors involved that are yet to be fully understood.

[Husky7mm]

I guess your hunting mulies in the west koots in nov then. I'll find it, what kind of truck do you drive LOL HAHAHA. I dont know how you can get any hunting done at all when your always on the computer educating us all about anything to do with region 4 wildlife. LOL Are we even arguing abou the same areas?

For all of your info the fences are on private land. They're meant to keep wildlife off the field when the farmers are growing hay and grass for their cows. Its their livelyhood and its their land, is it not? Plenty of crown land in the trench.

[big game chaser]

BS! i too have hunted same areas for years remote areas! were it was hiking and horse back ! and you may see acouple groups in the area ! now there quads horses jet boats side by sides ext sh#t i couldnt even find a spot to camp on a hike in trip this year and we saw very little game!take the muskwa boat launch for example !you cant tell me hunters up there havent increased and so have the game harvested ! and as far as govt stats thats a bunch of bs !they dont get proper counts ! its all about $$$$$$ tags licenses fuel tourism thats all the governments really interested in!

[big game chaser]

And the reason they were shooting larger numbers of deer back then and less now was because there was larger numbers and there is way less now!

[Fisher-Dude]

BS! i too have hunted same areas for years remote areas! were it was hiking and horse back ! and you may see acouple groups in the area ! now there quads horses jet boats side by sides ext sh#t i couldnt even find a spot to camp on a hike in trip this year and we saw very little game!take the muskwa boat launch for example !you cant tell me hunters up there havent increased and so have the game harvested ! and as far as govt stats thats a bunch of bs !they dont get proper counts ! its all about $$$$$$ tags licenses fuel tourism thats all the governments really interested in!

Yes, you would know much better about the game harvested, number of hunter days, dates of kills, animal populations than any professional biologist who is studying reams of information from 67,000 hunters, and counting game by helicopter that you've already counted riding your horse around. :roll: It's all BS from the biologists - YOU KNOW BEST!

[David Heitsman]

professional biologist who is studying reams of information from 67,000 hunters


How does the prof. biologists gather the "realms" of information from us? Speaking primarily of mule deer, I don't think that specie has even been on my hunter harvest questionare in the last few years. Your canceled tags aren't recorded anywhere unlike Utah, which has a mandatory reporting and game count seen form that must be completed within a short time, so I'm just not sure how the bio's would know harvest data, aside from driving by the local butcher shop.

As to mule deer, I haven't observed a significant decline in their numbers in region 3, 5, 7 and 8 in the locations where I hunt, but unless all the fawns seen are bucks, there is no way that there close to 20 does per buck. What I have observed is an alarming decline in mature bucks, be it large forked horns or 4 pts. When I see 150# spikes running around with their nose to the ground and mounting hot does, that in my unprofessional and untrained opinion is an indication that there is not a mature buck nearby.

[GoatGuy]

How does the prof. biologists gather the "realms" of information from us? Speaking primarily of mule deer, I don't think that specie has even been on my hunter harvest questionare in the last few years. Your canceled tags aren't recorded anywhere unlike Utah, which has a mandatory reporting and game count seen form that must be completed within a short time, so I'm just not sure how the bio's would know harvest data, aside from driving by the local butcher shop..

Estimated through sampling.


As to mule deer, I haven't observed a significant decline in their numbers in region 3, 5, 7 and 8 in the locations where I hunt, but unless all the fawns seen are bucks, there is no way that there close to 20 does per buck. What I have observed is an alarming decline in mature bucks, be it large forked horns or 4 pts. When I see 150# spikes running around with their nose to the ground and mounting hot does, that in my unprofessional and untrained opinion is an indication that there is not a mature buck nearby.

By mature bucks you mean Class IV, right? Mule deer bucks are sexually mature as yearlings, so a sexually mature buck essentially means anything that has bone on its head whether it's a spike, fork or bigger.

On to the "mature" (Class IV) part. You've never shot a Class IV buck in BC and it is likely you've only ever seen a handful (if that). The question becomes: How do you see a decline in Class IV bucks if you never saw Class IV bucks before?

The counts which have been conducted in the areas you hunt have consitently shown a buck:doe >20:100 even in December post-rut when the older bucks have typically dispersed. The counts are typically by the MU so you will have some spots were the buck:doe is less and some where it is quite high. Also a couple of the years yielded extremely high buck:doe ratios.......

With 20:100 you will end up with very few Class IV bucks post season. It isn't until you're up around 40:100 or higher where you'll see a greater proportion of Class IV bucks and even then they are not plentiful. Bucks and males in general have a much higher mortality rate particularly when they're young and then again when they're old.

The relevance to a spike mounting hot does isn't necessarily an indication of the age of the bucks. First we'd have to figure out if you know the difference between breeding a hot doe and mounting a doe/fawn which isn't in estrous, likely you don't. You will find that kind of behaviour from little bucks all the way through december and even into January when there isn't a hot doe in the country - that's part of growing up. Even with sheep the odd 4 year old gets a sniff as does the odd 10 year old, same applies, even more so, to deer. We watched a spike chase a hot doe last year and then killed a 170 buck that was only a couple hundred yards away with another hot doe ............... it happens.

In any case, the disconnect comes back to the intersection of the availability of wildlife and the hunters ability. There's is also the dissection of the validity of the hunters statement versus the history ie, talking about 'mature' (Class IV) animals and shooting Class IIV, or none at all........

In any case, it's best to stick to the science on this stuff.

[GoatGuy]

I guess your hunting mulies in the west koots in nov then. I'll find it, what kind of truck do you drive LOL HAHAHA. I dont know how you can get any hunting done at all when your always on the computer educating us all about anything to do with region 4 wildlife. LOL Are we even arguing abou the same areas?

For all of your info the fences are on private land. They're meant to keep wildlife off the field when the farmers are growing hay and grass for their cows. Its their livelyhood and its their land, is it not? Plenty of crown land in the trench.

No, but there are bigger bucks in the WK for sure. Most people don't like hunting over there cause you see very few deer (a handful is a good day), but there have probably been more 200+ bucks shot out of the WK and ET than any other spot in the province.

Typically we're hunting in areas that we hunt earlier in the year which means there's sheep somewhere close by. If I lived in Crazybrook I'd head east and south.......... or look at the MUs with high buck:doe on the flights.

Before you were overrun with wt and elk most private land was not fenced as the wildlife was not considered a nuisance by farmers/ranchers. They are now. You can talk to the guys who haven't fenced that used to have mule deer and a couple of elk in the winter. Now they have wt's and elk by the dozen all year. More the hunters fault than any one else in this case. Seem to think we have have thousands of everything roaming across the country just like the serenghetti.

[aggiehunter]

Hmmmm....a handfull is a good day...time for another study!!?????

[GoatGuy]

Hmmmm....a handfull is a good day...time for another study!!?????

Winter severity index is high, typically a major die-off every ~10 years due to high snow, particularly in that Revelstoke country.

No need for a study, this is all pretty fundamental stuff.

[Islandeer]

GG knows his sh..t. Same sound knowledge I grew up listening too ... most of it is really common sense.

The problem is alot of hunters in Bc are lacking in the common stuff.

Ek mulies from our hunts findings this season are better than ever ... go figure.

[dana]

[QUOTE=bigben;1024578]
Keep in mind the same risks to genetics exits with antler restrictions on deer as it does on elk. These will eventually weaken the best genetics for big antlers and lower trophy potential.

Haven't read much in the thread but this quote caught my eye. Just figured I'd use Region 3 as the example of proper mule deer management. We've had 4 point or better seasons for well over 20 years now, and our trophy potential is still as strong as ever. People need to understand the rationale for 4 point or better seasons is not to grow bigger bucks, it is rather to reduce the overall harvest of bucks. It gives a buck the edge as the hunter has to take the time to count points. That timeframe can be the difference between a dead buck and one that gets away. Many bucks have encounters with hunters but the hunters need the time to count and thus the buck gets away and lives another day. The older mature bucks typically clue in way faster to the hint of danger than the younger bucks, as they haven't gotten old by being dumb. The bulk of the 4 points killed during 4 point or better seasons are younger bucks. The older mature bucks are rarely harvested so they continue to be the breeding componant that you really need for your healthy genetics.

[steel_ram]

Winter severity index is high, typically a major die-off every ~10 years due to high snow, particularly in that Revelstoke country.

No need for a study, this is all pretty fundamental stuff.

Couldn't be something so obvious. Herp derp. Must be the wolves fault.

[dana]

It is my observations that wolves are actually poor mule deer hunters when the deer hit the heavy timber. Wolves in this province were designed for the moose and the moose for the wolves. When wolves target deer, the deer pretty much just avoid large openings and hang out in the heavy timber. Human hunters jump to the conclusion that because they aren't seeing any deer where they used to see them, the wolves must have ate them all. Couldn't be farther from the truth. Mule deer evade wolves pretty darn effectively. But a bi-product to evading wolves is they are damn hard to hunt.

[steel_ram]

Wolves also seem to do OK where deer are not. I'm guessing these healthy wolves, also in the absence of moose, are also feeding on a lot of little things. So yes it's easy for human hunters to blame the "competition", but that's a different topic.

[bugler]

I think the wolves here eat more whitetail and moose than mule deer, but we also seem to have a high cougar population, and me thinks muley is a favourite cat food.

[GoatGuy]

I think the wolves here eat more whitetail and moose than mule deer, but we also seem to have a high cougar population, and me thinks muley is a favourite cat food.

This is true and well documented.

[dana]

The observation of a high cougar population comes from what? Isn't there a quota on female lion harvest in the koots? If the population was high like most deer hunters think, there wouldn't be a quota.

[GoatGuy]

The observation of a high cougar population comes from what? Isn't there a quota on female lion harvest in the koots? If the population was high like most deer hunters think, there wouldn't be a quota.

Predation by cougars on mule deer is typically high. Comes from GPS collared cougars.

Google sympatric prey, white-tailed and mule deer, predation, hugh robinson. Shows the recovery of mule deer is being hampered by high predation from cougars due to productive white-tailed deer populations in the WK. Couple papers on that.

Female lion quota in the Koots is more of a social issue than a conservation related issue. You probably knew that (most of this stuff for that matter) and are trying to stir the pot...

In any case we can head back to habitat. We can tinker with things like predation and hunting seasons but overall with good habitat you can have healthy predators, human harvest and prey populations.

[6616]

[QUOTE=6616;1024598]

Haven't read much in the thread but this quote caught my eye. Just figured I'd use Region 3 as the example of proper mule deer management. We've had 4 point or better seasons for well over 20 years now, and our trophy potential is still as strong as ever. People need to understand the rationale for 4 point or better seasons is not to grow bigger bucks, it is rather to reduce the overall harvest of bucks. It gives a buck the edge as the hunter has to take the time to count points. That timeframe can be the difference between a dead buck and one that gets away. Many bucks have encounters with hunters but the hunters need the time to count and thus the buck gets away and lives another day. The older mature bucks typically clue in way faster to the hint of danger than the younger bucks, as they haven't gotten old by being dumb. The bulk of the 4 points killed during 4 point or better seasons are younger bucks. The older mature bucks are rarely harvested so they continue to be the breeding componant that you really need for your healthy genetics.

In the USA there are several jurisdictions that place B&C score as a fairly high objective in their deer management programs. There have been several studies in these jurisdictions where antlers from harvested deer from designated test areas have all been scored, and where antler restrictions were in place. Tt was found that in many cases the average score of the average buck harvested began to decline after about a decade. Their theory is that the bucks with the genetics to grow big antlers often grew 4pt antlers a year earlier than the deer with average genetics and thus became legal game one year earlier in age and were inadvertently harvested much heavier than management wanted. Of course that tended to select their genetics out of the herd and weakening the overall genetics of the herd.

Whether this theory is correct or not is really immaterial to BC. Many BC hunters wrongly assume the 4pt regulation is somewhat of a trophy management objective, when if the above theory is correct, it actually may be counter-productive to building genetics for bigger antlers. Like I said, it's immaterial because the real reason the 4pt antler regulation was put in place in BC is like Dana says to moderate harvest levels without having to resort to LEH while at the same time maintaining long seasons. It's very unlikely we could ever have the long GOS mule deer seasons we now enjoy without some form of control, and antler restrictions are much better than LEH.

The availability of trophy bucks in the 180+ range is not really heavily dependent on antler restrictions (even though it's probably true that more bucks survive) because what makes these bucks big is living to be old, surviving many seasons, plus good habitat. Yes with better genetics the 180 buck might be a 185 buck, but who's to say?? The objective in the jurisdictions that actually tried antler resrtictions to improve antler quality later caused them to be abandoned as being counter-productive to their objectives.

Other jursidictions use antler restrictions to make lots of 4pt bucks because that's what the majority of hunters are happy with. When hunters see lots of 4pt bucks they think all is well and the management regime works great even if the majority of these bucks are 120 to 140 bucks. This is a very dangerous assumption to make. Just because there are a lot of little pecker head 4pt bucks running around and the buck/doe ratios are higher (due to an antler restriction) doesn't mean the overall recruitment and fawn survival rates are high enough to avoid a decline in the population. It's just that hunters tend to judge the overall health of the herd and the success of the management program by the number of these young 4pt bucks they see which is a very misleading indicator to use in judging the overall well-being and productivity of the herd.

[hunter1947]

A few have said that wolves seam to avoid mule deer ???? ,the 5,1/2 months that I spent in the bush this is what I saw with my eyes.

I came across mule deer kills from wolves most where fawns I saw a few packs of wolves as for in different places hear them howling ,at times I saw wolves but they gave me no shot they where ether to far away or at close range to fast for me to get my cross hairs on them for a shot.

The deer kills that I saw where killed by wolves the tracks seeing the wolves tell me so ,it was an even split 50,50 on WT and MD kills from wolves The kills I saw where about 50% in the timber as for in the open slash.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

It is my observations that wolves are actually poor mule deer hunters when the deer hit the heavy timber. Wolves in this province were designed for the moose and the moose for the wolves. When wolves target deer, the deer pretty much just avoid large openings and hang out in the heavy timber. Human hunters jump to the conclusion that because they aren't seeing any deer where they used to see them, the wolves must have ate them all. Couldn't be farther from the truth. Mule deer evade wolves pretty darn effectively. But a bi-product to evading wolves is they are damn hard to hunt.

This is not true for my neck of the woods, I find wolf kills all winter out my way. Sometimes two and three kills from the same day.

[steel_ram]

How many of those Winter wolf "kills" were actually animals already dead, or dieing?

[hunter1947]

How many of those Winter wolf "kills" were actually animals already dead, or dieing?

There was no reason that these animals should die lots of vegetation at that time of the year it was in the late months of the summer why should they die and not one but 7 of the deer ??? I would understand your point steel_ram if it where in the mid winter months I also have never seen that many dead deer dead during the late summer months not in all the years I hunted my hunting area..

[Fisher-Dude]

There was no reason that these animals should die lots of vegetation at that time of the year it was in the late months of the summer why should they die and not one but 7 of the deer ??? I would understand your point steel_ram if it where in the mid winter months I also have never seen that many dead deer dead during the late summer months not in all the years I hunted my hunting area..

Deer have tough lives. Could have died from any number of reasons, including predation, malnutrition (even when it's green, there may not be suitable food sources), disease, traditional rights :roll:, vehicles, etc.

[steel_ram]

. . . . and hunters that "miss".

[Husky7mm]

No, but there are bigger bucks in the WK for sure. Most people don't like hunting over there cause you see very few deer (a handful is a good day), but there have probably been more 200+ bucks shot out of the WK and ET than any other spot in the province.

Typically we're hunting in areas that we hunt earlier in the year which means there's sheep somewhere close by. If I lived in Crazybrook I'd head east and south.......... or look at the MUs with high buck:doe on the flights.

Before you were overrun with wt and elk most private land was not fenced as the wildlife was not considered a nuisance by farmers/ranchers. They are now. You can talk to the guys who haven't fenced that used to have mule deer and a couple of elk in the winter. Now they have wt's and elk by the dozen all year. More the hunters fault than any one else in this case. Seem to think we have have thousands of everything roaming across the country just like the serenghetti.
Well after reading the survey south east and WK were on my to do list. Funny thing it was on almost everyone elses. Its been a busy fall in the woods, hunters hunters and more hunters. Upon trying to be thurough in the areas that I pre-scouted and produced for me in the past, the hunting season just seemed to disapear in the blink of an eye. I dont know where the season went. My wife sure thinks I hunted enough LOL LOL I didnt even make it southeast.

[hunter1947]

Deer have tough lives. Could have died from any number of reasons, including predation, malnutrition (even when it's green, there may not be suitable food sources), disease, traditional rights :roll:, vehicles, etc.

If thats the case why did this not happen in past years nothing has changed for habitat in there and has not vanished I see it ,the only thing that has changed is that I have seen more wolves and sightings and hear them then ever before ,a few of the kills could have been from a cat and then the wolves took over ??? ,your theory I don't by it I know this area like the back of my hand after 44 years in there never seen this ever before..

[CanuckShooter]

Hunter1947>> I totally agree with your observations....the wolves are killing off the game big time!!

[dana]

Hunter1947,
Just because you found a few wolf kills doesn't mean the wolves are slaughtering the deer. Of course wolves will kill deer, I'm not disputing that. What I am seeing is very very high wolf populations in my areas as well. The deer seem to totally disappear, giving the appearance that the wolves have killed them all. Then the spring rolls in and that new green starts growing in the valley bottom and all of a sudden, there are more deer than I have ever seen in 20 years of living here. How can you go 2 1/2 months of hunting hard and only seeing a handful of deer to a valley full of them only 4 months later? Easy, deer are good at hiding. ;) Just because hunters don't see them during the hunting season doesn't mean they all died. When wolves hunt muleys, the muleys hit the heavy timber and don't come out. While some deer do die, many many don't. If you are seeing wolf tracks everywhere like I do, you will find the muleys are super hard to find. But somehow every spring they show up more than the years before. Most hunters don't spend enough time year round observing deer to get the bigger picture of what is going on. People plan a trip and head to their spot for 4 days or even 2 weeks, they only see a blip in time in that area and if they don't see anything, they jump to conclusions that all the deer are dead. Couldn't be further from the truth.

GG,
I'm not disputing the fact that lions kill muleys. They are a very efficient predator. Lions and muleys have evolved for each other. I am just pointing out the fact that many deer hunters like to point to lions as the reason why they ain't seeing deer, and if they see a set of tracks, there must be a ton of lions in the area right? The average deer hunter has no clue as to the huge circles one lion can do in a short amount of time. The average deer hunter doesn't know how to tell the difference between individual lion tracks. Talk to the houndsmen to find out the cougar populations in the area. Most good houndsmen have every lion named. If there is a female quota, it is highly likely it is the houndsmen that have asked for it because they know the population in that area can't handle much of a female harvest.

[Fisher-Dude]

The MU that H47 hunts has an average annual kill of 43 mule deer bucks over the past 20 years. That's in a whole MU, all season long. The three MUs I hunt mostly have 106, 146, and 193 annual averages, and are similarly sized to H47's MU.

Average days per buck kill is almost 40 in H47's area (compared, for example, to ~26 in the Okanagan and ~20 in the Thompson).

Obviously, H47's area is poor mule deer habitat and always has been. To expect to see lots of muley bucks would result in utter disappointment.

[dana]

[QUOTE=dana;1025926]

In the USA there are several jurisdictions that place B&C score as a fairly high objective in their deer management programs. There have been several studies in these jurisdictions where antlers from harvested deer from designated test areas have all been scored, and where antler restrictions were in place. Tt was found that in many cases the average score of the average buck harvested began to decline after about a decade. Their theory is that the bucks with the genetics to grow big antlers often grew 4pt antlers a year earlier than the deer with average genetics and thus became legal game one year earlier in age and were inadvertently harvested much heavier than management wanted. Of course that tended to select their genetics out of the herd and weakening the overall genetics of the herd.

Whether this theory is correct or not is really immaterial to BC. Many BC hunters wrongly assume the 4pt regulation is somewhat of a trophy management objective, when if the above theory is correct, it actually may be counter-productive to building genetics for bigger antlers. Like I said, it's immaterial because the real reason the 4pt antler regulation was put in place in BC is like Dana says to moderate harvest levels without having to resort to LEH while at the same time maintaining long seasons. It's very unlikely we could ever have the long GOS mule deer seasons we now enjoy without some form of control, and antler restrictions are much better than LEH.

The availability of trophy bucks in the 180+ range is not really heavily dependent on antler restrictions (even though it's probably true that more bucks survive) because what makes these bucks big is living to be old, surviving many seasons, plus good habitat. Yes with better genetics the 180 buck might be a 185 buck, but who's to say?? The objective in the jurisdictions that actually tried antler resrtictions to improve antler quality later caused them to be abandoned as being counter-productive to their objectives.

Other jursidictions use antler restrictions to make lots of 4pt bucks because that's what the majority of hunters are happy with. When hunters see lots of 4pt bucks they think all is well and the management regime works great even if the majority of these bucks are 120 to 140 bucks. This is a very dangerous assumption to make. Just because there are a lot of little pecker head 4pt bucks running around and the buck/doe ratios are higher (due to an antler restriction) doesn't mean the overall recruitment and fawn survival rates are high enough to avoid a decline in the population. It's just that hunters tend to judge the overall health of the herd and the success of the management program by the number of these young 4pt bucks they see which is a very misleading indicator to use in judging the overall well-being and productivity of the herd.

6616,
Comparing BC to the States is like comparing apples and oranges. The bulk of the areas in the US where they saw trophy size decline were Trophy Class units and the decline was a direct result of heavy harvest on older age classes. Many of these units are tiny compared to BC's standards. Not hard to affect the overall quality when you are taking the bulk of the older age classes out. The next few years, you end up with younger bucks with smaller scores being harvested. Serious trophy hunters combined with outfitters and guides that watch the deer 365 days a year, you are bound to get a good number of big bucks dieing. The Paunsaguant in Utah is an example of this. The unit was producing the biggest bucks in NA for much of the nineties only to now see just a small handful of big bucks in there.
The chances of this happening in any jursidiction in BC is pretty darn slim. For one the bulk of the resident hunters only hunt for meat. The outfitters are pretty damn pathetic at killing big deer and don't spend countless hours watching them year round. And then we have one thing that most of the Yanks don't, we have Timber! Tons and tons and tons and tons of areas for big bucks to hide in. Region 3 has had 4 point or better seasons in place for over 20 years and it hasn't shown a decline in trophy bucks or a lack of a 4 point genetic. We have 3 months of mule deer hunting with many hunters coming from other areas of the province to take advantage of our long seasons, and we are still producing many of the biggest bucks in this province.

[LYKTOHUNT]

A question for dana on your last post, first I do not dispute your comments as you have obviously spent much time afield scouting and hunting but I am perplexed by the lack of deer in my particular area of 5-2 east of quesnel. I have hunted there for many years and up until about 5 years ago would see many deer a day, right about the time we started to see wolf, hear and see their tracks. Now when hunting that area on foot in the timber, clear cuts , driving trucks or quads many miles we do not see any deer or tracks.
Is it coincidence that the deer sign disappeared when the wolf sign appeared, I do not know for sure but my bet would be that they had a very real effect on the deers poor numbers.
If they are hiding and I know that is how they make their living, I think they must be hiding in a different region.
I have spent a fair bit of time over the years and through out the year from scouting to camping to moose huntin, berry picking, cutting fire wood etc and still myself and my hunting friends who have also hunted there for many years are finding the same results as me.
I respect your comments and my comments are not meant to be argumentative but I just find it way to coincidental that the deer started to disappear when the wolves started to show up in greater numbers., Bye the way I did manage to find an ok 4 point a little farther south of town than where we used to hunt, I do think I am very fortunate to get that one, but I did not find wolf tracks in that particular area.

[dana]

I have alluded to this in several mule deer threads as of late. Deer move. There are many different reasons they move. Wolf pressure can be one of these reasons. But you gotta look at everything that is going on in an area before you jump to that conclusion. I currently am finding areas I used to hunt to be almost void of deer. The fact that much of the former forest is dead and is now blown down and you can barely see the ground for butt rot broken stems, makes me think that the deer don't really prefer that type of habitat anymore. Large beetle salvage cutblocks will also change things up. Snow interception is no longer present. At one time they may have stayed in that mid-elevation forest type because they could get around easier in the canopy. Now, with vast clearcuts (which are great summer habitat) they bail out of it earlier. Entire deer herds can abandon an area because new habitat is formed somewhere else that they discover (ie large burns). Some areas that used to hold deer don't anymore because there hasn't been any recent logging. Grown up cutblocks and aldered in roads make the hunting poor. Tons of issue that make them move. I could go on and on and on. Just because you had a good area, doesn't mean that area is going to be good forever. Hunters need to realize this and adjust accordingly. Instead of hitting that area that you have hunted for years and years, maybe you've got to find where it is the deer went. And yes, wolves can indeed move them. They will find better escape terrain which in my experience means thicker forests. They are sitting ducks if they feed out in the open like they did before the wolves moved in.

[LYKTOHUNT]

Thanks dana,that makes sense to me and i agree the logging that has taken place for bug kill has changed their habits as well as the dead standing timber, so you are right we have to adjust,damn it. it was fun while it lasted,so close to home and so familiar with the area.

[hunter1947]

Hunter1947,
Just because you found a few wolf kills doesn't mean the wolves are slaughtering the deer. Of course wolves will kill deer, I'm not disputing that. What I am seeing is very very high wolf populations in my areas as well. The deer seem to totally disappear, giving the appearance that the wolves have killed them all. Then the spring rolls in and that new green starts growing in the valley bottom and all of a sudden, there are more deer than I have ever seen in 20 years of living here. How can you go 2 1/2 months of hunting hard and only seeing a handful of deer to a valley full of them only 4 months later? Easy, deer are good at hiding. ;) Just because hunters don't see them during the hunting season doesn't mean they all died. When wolves hunt muleys, the muleys hit the heavy timber and don't come out. While some deer do die, many many don't. If you are seeing wolf tracks everywhere like I do, you will find the muleys are super hard to find. But somehow every spring they show up more than the years before. Most hunters don't spend enough time year round observing deer to get the bigger picture of what is going on. People plan a trip and head to their spot for 4 days or even 2 weeks, they only see a blip in time in that area and if they don't see anything, they jump to conclusions that all the deer are dead. Couldn't be further from the truth.

GG,
I'm not disputing the fact that lions kill muleys. They are a very efficient predator. Lions and muleys have evolved for each other. I am just pointing out the fact that many deer hunters like to point to lions as the reason why they ain't seeing deer, and if they see a set of tracks, there must be a ton of lions in the area right? The average deer hunter has no clue as to the huge circles one lion can do in a short amount of time. The average deer hunter doesn't know how to tell the difference between individual lion tracks. Talk to the houndsmen to find out the cougar populations in the area. Most good houndsmen have every lion named. If there is a female quota, it is highly likely it is the houndsmen that have asked for it because they know the population in that area can't handle much of a female harvest.

Dana I saw less elk in the area I hunt then ever before my thoughts are that the wolfs have something to do with this ,my sightings on elk where down 50% from last years sightings as for mule deer ,there are two reasons that I can think of is ether the wolves pushed the elk mule deer out of the area I hunt ,maybe the elk ventured into a new area this year ??:confused:?? as for habitat there is more then ever in there with the new cut blocks that have been opened up in the past years so habitat is not the reason for the less sightings on mule deer and elk.

WT deer is a different story there are more WT deer in the area I hunt then ever before ,I can see that this would have an effect on the mule deer and elk sightings the hi numbers of WT population might have pushed the elk ,MD out of the area ??:confused:??.

I know something I worked every piece of land I usually work when hunting elk and then went out further to try to find elk I considered my self very lucky to get a bull elk this year ,very lucky with the amount of elk I saw.

I only saw two mule deer four points over the time I spent in my area one was in the scouting season with deeks the other was in rifle season the buck never presented a shot for me ,last year I saw 60% more mule deer bucks and does then I saw this year no fawns with the few MD does I saw this year.

As for seeing tracks from wolves they are everywhere that I ventured and I know it is just not a few lions making the tracks its a big pill of them the reason I know this is on one days hunt I ventured into 5 different areas these areas where a long distance from the others I heard wolves calling in 4 different places I hunted the day this tells me that there are lots of lions in my surrounding area I hunt :)...

[6616]

As Region 4 hunters and stakeholders there are several things we can do to help the situation out if we have concerns regarding mule deer populations:

(1) Log onto the MLFNRO regulations engagement web site and voice your support for the proposals to increase antlerless elk and antlerless white tailed deer hunting opportunities. Of special importance is the proposal to increase the deer bag limit in Region 4 to 3 deer. The way this proposal is worded the only way that third deer tag can be used is in the harvest of a white tailed doe. http://a100.gov.bc.ca/pub/ahte/

(2) Shoot wolves. Even though for practical purposes this may not make much difference it will make you feel better.

(3) Voice your support to your MLA for the eco-system restoration program in the Rocky Mountain and Selkirk Forest Districts. That program is the major entity right now having a positive effect on habitat, and funding is very minimal for this important program as eco-system restoration currently ranks very low as a government priority.

(4) Get involved with local hunting and Rod and Gun clubs who are involved with habitat restoration projects.

(5) Take advantage of the opportunities that now exist to shoot antlerless elk and white tailed deer.

[Husky7mm]

I would not be surpised if they have already reached their targets on the Zone X elk. There are also less WT than there use to be, but the are still alot of them.

[6616]

I would not be surpised if they have already reached their targets on the Zone X elk. There are also less WT than there use to be, but the are still alot of them.

Maybe in some areas, but note the proposals on the Ministry web site, they are still trying to expand the x-zones.

[Fisher-Dude]

I would not be surpised if they have already reached their targets on the Zone X elk. There are also less WT than there use to be, but the are still alot of them.

Less whitetails? What makes you think that?

[dana]

There ain't enough hunters in BC to make a dint on the dinky dog rat deer epidemic. We need to have a 3 doe baglimit on top of the province baglimit.

[Fisher-Dude]

There ain't enough hunters in BC to make a dint on the dinky dog rat deer epidemic.


I heard a reliable estimate of 70,000 dinky dog rat deer in the EK Trench alone. And that was 2 or 3 years ago! Ai-carumba, that's a lot of delicious deer meat! :D

[dana]

I heard a reliable estimate of 70,000 dinky dog rat deer in the EK Trench alone. And that was 2 or 3 years ago! Ai-carumba, that's a lot of delicious deer meat! :D

Too many hunters have the pride issue they need to deal with when it comes to killing does. We might have to start forcing the issue by not letting them buy buck tags until they fullfill their doe allotement.

[aggiehunter]

FD....A reliable estimate of WT in the Ek...I saw that one...I found two poops...multiplyed by 7 thousand...then flew over some deer on the spring range and calculated that for every one I saw from the plane there was 3/4's of one hiding behind a tree....don't listen to local ranchers like I do who say theres a decline...and yes the Zone X Elk are on the decline...but that was the plan...Zone X for Xterminate...

[Gateholio]

If there was a WT doe season anywhere I was hunting, I'd be dropping the hammer as often as possible. :)

[Fisher-Dude]

If there was a WT doe season anywhere I was hunting, I'd be dropping the hammer as often as possible. :)

You better fill 'er up with carbon tax-free french fries and come for a visit next year. If you do the cookin', I'll show you a doe or two to smack. :wink:

[Gateholio]

:) You are allowed 2 does? :)

[Weatherby Fan]

We always take a WT doe each if hunting Elk in Cranbrook
Very good eating deer for sure,my older brother says best game meat going!

[Fisher-Dude]

:) You are allowed 2 does? :)

It's a 1 1/2 hour drive to R3 for the 2nd one, if ya need it. R3 is less of a chance, but R8 is pretty much a gimme. :D

[Gateholio]

I'm in! have never even had a WT tag, I don't think! :)

[Fisher-Dude]

Cool! We won't even have to scout for 3 months beforehand to find one!

[GoatGuy]

FD....A reliable estimate of WT in the Ek...I saw that one...I found two poops...multiplyed by 7 thousand...then flew over some deer on the spring range and calculated that for every one I saw from the plane there was 3/4's of one hiding behind a tree....don't listen to local ranchers like I do who say theres a decline...and yes the Zone X Elk are on the decline...but that was the plan...Zone X for Xterminate...

Zone X was setup to reduce agricultural conflict and try to save the winter range for 'wild' migratory animals when they show up in October and November. It's foolish and irresponsible to treat winter range in the trench as a year round buffet for non-migratory white-tailed deer and elk. The historical approach of "give me more in the trench in September" is and will continue to wreak havoc on the long-term sustainability of high density wildlife populations in the East Kootenay. Elk and deer will come back within a decade after winter-kill or high hunter harvest - habitat will not. Habitat is being lost and destroyed and it will take millions of dollars and generations to bring it back up to snuff. Seems people think the definition of conservation is seeing lots of wildlife where it shouldn't be, whilst destroying habitat. This is extremely unfortunate as it is future generations of wildlife and conservationists who will pay the price for the selfish actions of those today. Makes for a pretty bleek outlook, really.

The rancher I know has lived in the EK since the 40s and he has never had so many elk on his property EVER and so few mule deer (none now). He is as reliable as it gets and has been there done that when it comes to the issues involving wildlife and ranching in the EK.

[6616]

:) You are allowed 2 does? :)

Not currently, but next year "yes" if this proposal (#162) passes.

Proposed Regulations:
Deer: The aggregate bag limit in the Kootenay Region is three. The bag limit for mule (black-tailed) deer is one. The bag limit for white-tailed deer is two, only one of which may be a buck, and two may be antlerless.

How hard will it be to shoot two does Clark?......well last year my grandson and myself needed until 9:00AM of one day of hunting in the youth/senior season to fill two doe tags. Of course after a couple years of doe GOS they will become a little more wary, it might take a couple extra hours. And in reality this might not even make a significant difference in the population, the only thing that's going to stop the surge of WTD in the EK is another winter kill like 96/97. Even then, F&W data from 2000 shows that it only took 3 years for the WTD to bounce back from the 60% to 70% die-off that occurred that winter.

You could even come during the cow elk GOS if you really want to top up that freezer, lots of biomass available for stocking freezers out here..! The more the merrier, all hunters welcome.

[hunter1947]

Not currently, but next year "yes" if this proposal (#162) passes.

Proposed Regulations:
Deer: The aggregate bag limit in the Kootenay Region is three. The bag limit for mule (black-tailed) deer is one. The bag limit for white-tailed deer is two, only one of which may be a buck, and two may be antlerless.

How hard will it be to shoot two does Clark?......well last year my grandson and myself needed until 9:00AM of one day of hunting in the youth/senior season to fill two doe tags. Of course after a couple years of doe GOS they will become a little more wary, it might take a couple extra hours. And in reality this might not even make a significant difference in the population, the only thing that's going to stop the surge of WTD in the EK is another winter kill like 96/97. Even then, F&W data from 2000 shows that it only took 3 years for the WTD to bounce back from the 60% to 70% die-off that occurred that winter.

You could even come during the cow elk GOS if you really want to top up that freezer, lots of biomass available for stocking freezers out here..! The more the merrier, all hunters welcome.

Andy If this does pass it will definitely reduce the numbers of WT antlerless deer in Kootenay region and help the buck to doe ratio big time as for freeing up more habitat,I know if the new proposal gets passed I will take a doe in region 4 in 2012.

I took a doe WT last year as for a mule deer buck I was finished for deer hunting in region 4 for the year but if this new bad limit for deer is implemented it will allow me as for others hunters to take 3 deer in region 4 and one of them can be a WT doe allowing me to shoot a WT buck as for a MD buck ,the way I saw it the last few years in region 4 was that many hunter would not take a WT doe in region 4 because they wanted a WT buck and they saved there other deer tag for a mule deer buck two deer only in region 4 ,I like this proposal hope it passes..

[Husky7mm]

What your seeing for does is the entire popualtion, hanging out close to the roads cause thats where the cats, wolves and coyotes pushed them. I've been out nearly part of everyday for a month. I see like 1 buck for every 30-40 does. Thats a little messed up. Anyways I am not against people shooting does for meat. Hunting is expensive and its nice to have a gimmie once in a while. Lets not be piggish though, does a person who has 2 white tails in the frezzer really need a mulie too. Lets do the math. Give the hunters a 3 deer limit they will all think they need 3 deer each. Ah whatever if reduceing WT helps MD than giver.
BTW Elk are not native to the koots they moved here from the praires.

[Fisher-Dude]

What your seeing for does is the entire popualtion, hanging out close to the roads cause thats where the cats, wolves and coyotes pushed them. I've been out nearly part of everyday for a month. I see like 1 buck for every 30-40 does. Thats a little messed up. Anyways I am not against people shooting does for meat. Hunting is expensive and its nice to have a gimmie once in a while. Lets not be piggish though, does a person who has 2 white tails in the frezzer really need a mulie too. Lets do the math. Give the hunters a 3 deer limit they will all think they need 3 deer each. Ah whatever if reduceing WT helps MD than giver.
BTW Elk are not native to the koots they moved here from the praires.


What? The 70,000 whitetails all live close to the highway in the Trench? Better tell the ones I saw 60 kms from the highway that they are in the wrong place.

[ROEBUCK]

will they open the 2 doe season up in early sept ,or only in october ?
if its early sept might just take the wife up there and kill a couple or three of does !

[6616]

will they open the 2 doe season up in early sept ,or only in october ?
if its early sept might just take the wife up there and kill a couple or three of does !

The antlerless GOS is currently from Oct 10th to 31st. The proposal is not to change the season in any way, just to increase the bag limit to two whitetails, both of which can be does, only one of which can be a buck.

[Husky7mm]

What? The 70,000 whitetails all live close to the highway in the Trench? Better tell the ones I saw 60 kms from the highway that they are in the wrong place.
LOL
No But I bet they werent 60k from a WELL TRAVELED road. Safer for them close to human traffic most of the yr.

[Husky7mm]

will they open the 2 doe season up in early sept ,or only in october ?
if its early sept might just take the wife up there and kill a couple or three of does !

And thats how Region 5 mule deer changed so much in a few short years. Over lapping liberal seasons, everyone all hunting in a short period of time looking for a dubble dip, or a dubble wammy. A big recreational demand for a limited amount of game. How much should be left for breeding stock? How long should it run?

[ROEBUCK]

And thats how Region 5 mule deer changed so much in a few short years. Over lapping liberal seasons, everyone all hunting in a short period of time looking for a dubble dip, or a dubble wammy. A big recreational demand for a limited amount of game. How much should be left for breeding stock? How long should it run?

whitetails are like rats in the EK and need finning out and a doe cull is the best solution.
if its early sept we will combine a goat hunt and take home 2or 3 does

[Husky7mm]

While we could use SOME does to be harvested. How long would it take hundred of hunters to "thin out" the 20-or 40 they see on each trip? A week or two?

[aggiehunter]

Yah Rowbuck they're exactly like rats feeding on peoples garbage...they should be used in lab's for testing anyday now....

[dana]

Whitetails can breed like rats. They need aggressive management to keep them under control. There are some states that allow a 1 deer a day baglimit for an entire 3 months and they still have trouble keeping them undercontrol. Even if all the hunters that hunt in the Koots were to take their 2 whitetail baglimit, it will be a huge stretch to think that hunting alone will make a dint on those 70,000 whitetails.

[6616]

While we could use SOME does to be harvested. How long would it take hundred of hunters to "thin out" the 20-or 40 they see on each trip? A week or two?


The 2008 MOE population estimate of WTD was 40,000 to 60,000 so a 2011 estimate of 70,000 is certainly feasible.

If there are 70,000 WTD in R4, and if the buck ratio is 20 per 100 does, the fawn ratio 30 per 100 does, that means there are about 47,000 does in the population. Considering the reproductive rate of WTD, we need to harvest at least 10% of the does annually to have the desired impact, or roughly 4700 does. I don't think we need to worry too much about an over harvest.

[Husky7mm]

Maby not......
Does anyone actually know what the total population is? Elk, MD and WT. EK and WK. Scientifically what is the caring capacity based on how much land there is here under a said altitude? What is the cold hard numbers that are up to date. Upswing or downswing? Check out Eastman Hunting Journal artical titled Predator Death Spiral. Some interesting problems happening JUST south of us all. Unchecked game populations liberal hunting, limited bugets, unchecked uncontrolled predator numbers. Its not a problem cause hunters are still seeing game, then OPPS W.T.F is going on???

[Husky7mm]

http://www.eastmans.com/guy/2011/11/the-predator-death-spiral/
Heres the link, hope it works, I can hardly work a computer.

[Husky7mm]

Hey heres a starving bull elk picture taken winter 2010-11( bad winter) out in the poor quaility winter range of the pickering hills. Man he looks straved lol

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd483/husky7mm/P1040795.jpg (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0);)

[6616]

Hey heres a starving bull elk picture taken winter 2010-11( bad winter) out in the poor quaility winter range of the pickering hills. Man he looks straved lol

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd483/husky7mm/P1040795.jpg (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0);)

One picture, one elk....? How many elk/deer are wintering on Pickering Hills today compared to 25 years ago. What is the current carrying capacity today compared to 25 years ago after 25 years of forest ingrowth and over-grazing by cattle. Why do you think there's a range recovery plan in place for Pickering Hills,,,, everything is not OK when it comes to habitat, especially on Pickering Hills.

How many elk/sheep are wintering on Premier Ridge compared to 25 years ago..........same scenario. How about Skookumchuk Prairie, to think all is OK with winter range habitat is akin to burying your head in sand like an ostrich.

[GoatGuy]

Husky, your posts have gone off the deep end again and that typically turns people off. People won't engage posts that aren't based in reality.

If you do not believe the bottom end of the bull is anything more than extremely poor habitat you might as well argue that the world is flat.

If you only see one buck for every 40 does then it is without a doubt your hunting abilities which restrict your ability to find bucks.

In response to your contribution I would ask you to identify 5 types of preferred vegetation for mule and white-tailed deer, elk and sheep in the East Kootenay from November-May. Then tell me how many of those you will find at the bottom end of the bull and also what kind of shape you find those plant communities in. Also, comPare that to what was available 35 or even 15 years ago. If you cannot provide that level of detail just provide 5 types of preferred veg. If you can't do that perhaps the names of a few of the bunch grasses elk and sheep like and what the abundance and distribution is in the bull and compare that to what was available in the 80s or 90s if you like.

These are all issues that one would look at to be able to prove the theory that habitat is having little to no impact on productivity and that wildlife populations have declined exclusively due to hunting.

[GoatGuy]

How many elk/sheep are wintering on Premier Ridge compared to 25 years ago..........same scenario. How about Skookumchuk Prairie, to think all is OK with winter range habitat is akin to burying your head in sand like an ostrich.

There are a lot of sheep carcasses wintering on premier ridge. Must be because of all the ewe hinting seasons in the last decade.

[Islandeer]

All over the proposal. About bloody time, friggin whities are everywhere and eatin everything.

They taste mighty fine too. So lets get behind it .... shoot a doe .... ride a mule deer !!!!

[bugler]

There are a lot of sheep carcasses wintering on premier ridge. Must be because of all the ewe hinting seasons in the last decade.

Ha Ha, I get it. But I'm thinking they are gone more due to predation than feed, much higher cougar population than the 80's and the closed roads discouraged the houndsmen from hunting cats in there. It appears to be an example of road closure designed to protect the game might have contributed to their demise.

Just a theory, shared by many around here. Any merit to it?

[aggiehunter]

Dana, it is foolish to mentions "states"...where man has extirpated natural predators and food plots rule the day....I wonder how long there seasons are...hmmmm..

[6616]

Ha Ha, I get it. But I'm thinking they are gone more due to predation than feed, much higher cougar population than the 80's and the closed roads discouraged the houndsmen from hunting cats in there. It appears to be an example of road closure designed to protect the game might have contributed to their demise.

Just a theory, shared by many around here. Any merit to it?

Yah, there was probably some merit to that, especially a few years back when there was still critters wintering there. Did you ever see the aerial photos of Premier Ridge in the '50s compared to the more recent ones? Look at the photos on page 12 of this document: http://www.trenchsociety.com/setup/content/Blueprint_for_Action_2006.pdf

There has been extreme amounts of forest ingrowth and we've lost about 80% of the grassland based elk/sheep winter range we had up there in the '50s. Right now there are no sheep and very few elk to speak of wintering on Premier due to the poor stare of suitability that habitat is in, so the predator population up there has probably moved on as well. A real shame when we know the potential that area has if we could burn the crap out of it. Bradford's don't even range cattle on the high ridge anymore as there's not enough grass to make it worthwhile.

[steel_ram]

24 pages of discussion about Mulw deer. Don't we sound like a bunch of tards.

[dana]

Dana, it is foolish to mentions "states"...where man has extirpated natural predators and food plots rule the day....I wonder how long there seasons are...hmmmm..

extirpated natural predators??? Hmmm, seems they missed the wiley coyote. Coyotes don't have a problem taking down adult whiteys let alone the fawns. And also seems they missed the lowly black bear. Yup, they don't just eat grass you know. They LOVE newborn fawns. Yet they still have an over population of whitetails in most of the the eastern states. And those whiteys are pushing west. Strange how we gave them our wolves and those wolves have pretty much taken over and decimated most of the elk and muley populations, but the damn whitetail keeps on expanding and growing and growing. If you think for one minute that the doe seasons are going to adversely affect those rats then I will assume you've been hitting the crack pipe.

[jeff]

24 pages of discussion about Mulw deer. Don't we sound like a bunch of tards.

cant that have been fixed ..why cant we edit the title..

[dana]

Jeff,
You can't seem to be able to fix your spelling so why are you complaining about someone else's. ;)

[jeff]

Jeff,
You can't seem to be able to fix your spelling so why are you complaining about someone else's. ;)

GGGGGRRRRRR....BURRRNN.. now youve done it ...

[CanuckShooter]

extirpated natural predators??? Hmmm, seems they missed the wiley coyote. Coyotes don't have a problem taking down adult whiteys let alone the fawns. And also seems they missed the lowly black bear. Yup, they don't just eat grass you know. They LOVE newborn fawns. Yet they still have an over population of whitetails in most of the the eastern states. And those whiteys are pushing west. Strange how we gave them our wolves and those wolves have pretty much taken over and decimated most of the elk and muley populations, but the damn whitetail keeps on expanding and growing and growing. If you think for one minute that the doe seasons are going to adversely affect those rats then I will assume you've been hitting the crack pipe.

My uncle calls mule deer camels....you call white tail deer rats....have a little respect for your wildlife guys. :-(

[Husky7mm]

GG, it is a undisputed to everyone that you are far more educated than I. I dont know the name of all the plant of the top of my head, I would have to look in a book to identify the plant and get its name. I do know that ungulates don't need open grass land to winter. I see them in the trees just as often. Eating some parts of that in growth. Eating goats beard that falls of the trees in the wind, and they love when the snow snaps off the branches or someone cuts down a tree. It must taste like candy. How do other ungulates in other parts of BC survive when they dont have open range? Why arent the deer and elk and sheep utilizing the new enhanced winter range thats been opened up here? 70000 WT wow I'm guessing thats from MICA dam all the way to the flathead and grand folks all the way to the alberta border. Your right thats alot........WT have been here for over a hundred years, they can and do live along with the mule deer. They do very well and can have a liberal season. Unlike the mule deer for the next who knows how long. Hunter opportunity is a coined term thrown around by folks who want it EASY. When it's easy they come in droves and wack and stack. But the game that doesnt die goes nocturnal ,and then it gets a little harder and they complain, they want it even easier. In the end Hunter opportunity cost hunters their opportunity.
As for my hunting ability, thats funny we should meet someday. That would be funny..... This was originally about mule deer or the lack there of and I could show you 50 pages of pictures in the prime back country and high country, places I hiked to, and slept in and found next to nothing. So it doenst surpise me that you tight lipped, and scared to post pics about your honey hole, there just isnt many places like that left here. Many used to be good places are like a picked over carcass, dog crap, or should i say wolf crap.
So keep feeding peolpe lines of crap about staving deer and elk maby if you say it enough it will become true and even more folks can come for theirs easy deer or elk . As for the fat bull, all the cows looked the same, so did the deer for that matter. Fat and sassy.
I not gonna sit around will a bunch of out of region hunters wine about depleted winter range so they can all take something easy home and leave this place a waste land. They are working on the land right now and have been for a few years, it wont matter if they opened it right up and burned it all.We still here it "Let me shoot a few does and a cow and any buck I see" Bitch moan wine!!!!!

[6616]

A good rule of thumb would be (despite wolves and regulations), "look after the habitat and the critters will look after themselves".

[6616]

GG, it is a undisputed to everyone that you are far more educated than I. I dont know the name of all the plant of the top of my head, I would have to look in a book to identify the plant and get its name. I do know that ungulates don't need open grass land to winter. I see them in the trees just as often. Eating some parts of that in growth. Eating goats beard that falls of the trees in the wind, and they love when the snow snaps off the branches or someone cuts down a tree. It must taste like candy. How do other ungulates in other parts of BC survive when they dont have open range? Why arent the deer and elk and sheep utilizing the new enhanced winter range thats been opened up here? 70000 WT wow I'm guessing thats from MICA dam all the way to the flathead and grand folks all the way to the alberta border. Your right thats alot........WT have been here for over a hundred years, they can and do live along with the mule deer. They do very well and can have a liberal season. Unlike the mule deer for the next who knows how long. Hunter opportunity is a coined term thrown around by folks who want it EASY. When it's easy they come in droves and wack and stack. But the game that doesnt die goes nocturnal ,and then it gets a little harder and they complain, they want it even easier. In the end Hunter opportunity cost hunters their opportunity.
As for my hunting ability, thats funny we should meet someday. That would be funny..... This was originally about mule deer or the lack there of and I could show you 50 pages of pictures in the prime back country and high country, places I hiked to, and slept in and found next to nothing. So it doenst surpise me that you tight lipped, and scared to post pics about your honey hole, there just isnt many places like that left here. Many used to be good places are like a picked over carcass, dog crap, or should i say wolf crap.
So keep feeding peolpe lines of crap about staving deer and elk maby if you say it enough it will become true and even more folks can come for theirs easy deer or elk . As for the fat bull, all the cows looked the same, so did the deer for that matter. Fat and sassy.
I not gonna sit around will a bunch of out of region hunters wine about depleted winter range so they can all take something easy home and leave this place a waste land. They are working on the land right now and have been for a few years, it wont matter if they opened it right up and burned it all.We still here it "Let me shoot a few does and a cow and any buck I see" Bitch moan wine!!!!!

Seems there might be couple things you're unaware of or maybe not looking at the complete picture.

Ungulates in the northern part of North America overeat all summer, first rebuilding themselves from the ravages of the past winter, and then putting on an extra layer of stored fat for the next winter. During the winter they under-ear or live with what's called a negative energy intake and consume the stored fat put on in the summer. Even in a very bad winter they look fat and sassy for the major part of the winter, it's towards spring when the stored fat is all consumed and they begin to lose muscle and bone mass that they start looking visably in poor shape, and if green-up doesn't come soon after or before this point is reached they are doomed and a die-off will occur. An elk can weight as much as 100 to 150 lbs lighter in the spring as he/she did in the fall.

The eco-system restoration sites in the EK Trench have in most cases been impacted by forest ingrowth for 50 years or more and the native plant communities exist only in remnant amounts. Opening up the overstory does not allow immediate production of more forage. That only occurs after the native plant communites recover and this takes up to 5 to 10 years for the browse shrub species and up to as much as 20 years for the fescue species and the Bluebunch Wheatgrass on the grassland sites. For the first 5 to 10 years the growth will be mainly non-nutritional Pine Grass, Fireweed, other useless weeds such as Mullet, etc, and wildlife will not use this habitat until the native plant communites begin to emerge as the site offers next to nothing for forage value. This is why you don't see wintering wildlife on newly restored sites. They will begin to use the sites about five years after the project and reach full use of the site in 15 to 20 years. ER is the long term answer but isn't highly productive in the short-term. This also varies depending on the perscription used and whether fire was part of the treatment. A burned site with a properly conducted fire will recover quicker, fire can do a lot of soil damage as well if it's not properly conducted. Luckily we have the right people and the right expertise in the EK to conduct good burns.

[Fisher-Dude]

I not gonna sit around will a bunch of out of region hunters wine about depleted winter range so they can all take something easy home and leave this place a waste land.


That's what it's all about for you: getting rid of those fking out-of-region hunters. I called you out on this already, and you keep confirming it.

You hide behind conservation, but it's abundantly transparent what your motive is. You're so clueless about what you're doing to your own hunting future that it's rather sad, really.

[Husky7mm]

Its no surprise to anyone that I and many others feel this area of the country is overrun with hunters, after all it was once called the serengety of the north by some. If there are indeed "too many" elk and whitetails then the only way to reduce them is by harvesting females. As for the mule deer and that what this thread is about anybuck Might have been sustainable if it didnt coinside with 10000 hopefull elk hunters here during that time plunking any mule deer they come across. Between that and the low amount of fawn making it to adults( good luck if your a buck in the koots) add in a high amount of unchecked preditors. THAT MY PROBLEM!!!! The mulies here are screwed( everywhere but Goatguys spot that is)

[GoatGuy]

Ha Ha, I get it. But I'm thinking they are gone more due to predation than feed, much higher cougar population than the 80's and the closed roads discouraged the houndsmen from hunting cats in there. It appears to be an example of road closure designed to protect the game might have contributed to their demise.

Just a theory, shared by many around here. Any merit to it?

Unusually high mortality rates due to predation are often (not always) created by changes in habitat. Sheep in that country died due to predation, but that is because the habitat has created conditions that favour predators more than sheep. Ingrowth not only means poor forage conditions, it typically means higher rates of predation as well, particularly for species that evolved in open landscapes. Gotta look at where sheep evolved and what kind of habitat they thrive in. The same is applicable to mule deer and elk.

Oppositely white-tailed deer often do well in dense bush, as do black-tailed deer because that is where they evolved. Their defense strategies surround thick bush whereas sheep and mule deer rely more heavily on sight. Just need to look at where they evolved and where they thrive to see what conditions you need to manage the landscape for.

So yes, predation, but the instigator is habitat. Reducing predation will help, but it isn't typically the silver bullet that you get with habitat enhancement/restoration. With habitat restoration you also get high quality feed which makes wildlife populations more productive (increased twinning, earlier sexual maturation etc).

[GoatGuy]

GG, it is a undisputed to everyone that you are far more educated than I. I dont know the name of all the plant of the top of my head, I would have to look in a book to identify the plant and get its name. I do know that ungulates don't need open grass land to winter. I see them in the trees just as often. Eating some parts of that in growth. Eating goats beard that falls of the trees in the wind, and they love when the snow snaps off the branches or someone cuts down a tree. It must taste like candy. How do other ungulates in other parts of BC survive when they dont have open range? Why arent the deer and elk and sheep utilizing the new enhanced winter range thats been opened up here? 70000 WT wow I'm guessing thats from MICA dam all the way to the flathead and grand folks all the way to the alberta border. Your right thats alot........WT have been here for over a hundred years, they can and do live along with the mule deer. They do very well and can have a liberal season. Unlike the mule deer for the next who knows how long. Hunter opportunity is a coined term thrown around by folks who want it EASY. When it's easy they come in droves and wack and stack. But the game that doesnt die goes nocturnal ,and then it gets a little harder and they complain, they want it even easier. In the end Hunter opportunity cost hunters their opportunity.
As for my hunting ability, thats funny we should meet someday. That would be funny..... This was originally about mule deer or the lack there of and I could show you 50 pages of pictures in the prime back country and high country, places I hiked to, and slept in and found next to nothing. So it doenst surpise me that you tight lipped, and scared to post pics about your honey hole, there just isnt many places like that left here. Many used to be good places are like a picked over carcass, dog crap, or should i say wolf crap.
So keep feeding peolpe lines of crap about staving deer and elk maby if you say it enough it will become true and even more folks can come for theirs easy deer or elk . As for the fat bull, all the cows looked the same, so did the deer for that matter. Fat and sassy.
I not gonna sit around will a bunch of out of region hunters wine about depleted winter range so they can all take something easy home and leave this place a waste land. They are working on the land right now and have been for a few years, it wont matter if they opened it right up and burned it all.We still here it "Let me shoot a few does and a cow and any buck I see" Bitch moan wine!!!!!

Ok, three things that can typically negatively affect a deer population:

1) Hunting
2) Predation
3) Habitat

1. Females control the size of a population. In the East Kootenay you do not harvest antlerless mule deer in any number that would affect the mule deer population. Science tells us we need about 5-10 bucks per 100 does before we will have any effect on the reproductive cability of deer - that is not occuring. That means you can cross hunting right off the list for the mule deer population. Don't bother talking about it, thinking about it, dreaming about it. If you can't you might as well give up on science all together - stop going to the doctor, using a computer or anything else that has been created as a direct result of the scientific method.

2. Possibly/probably a factor that may be affecting the population but we don't know. We do know that predator control is typically an ongoing and costly excercise and it is only a symptom of other bigger problems. A review of predator control for deer in North America has shown that there is only ONE case where the deer responded to intensive predator control. All the rest of the attempts failed to show an increase in neo-nate or adult survival. Those attempts included bounties, trapping, shooting from helicopters, things that have been sucessfull for other species such as sheep, moose and carbiou. We also know that predation has been pointed to in some studies but those studies (some conducted in Region 4) point back to overly high and productive white-tailed deer populations which have resulted in high cougar populations.

3. We know mule deer evolved in open habitat. We know their defense strategies are tied to being able to see their prey. We know that most of the East Kootenays as well as much of the interior of BC is a fire maintained ecosystem which typically burned every 10-40 years depending on the area. We also know that protein content and productivity is highest about 4-8 years after a fire. We know twinning rates and population sizes increase significantly after a burn. We know that antler growth and body condition increases significantly after a burn. We know that some plant communities are a by-product of fire and actually need fire to germanate. We know that many plant communities in a fire maintained ecosystem become decadent and often can't compete with other species. We also know we've had fire surpression for over 40 years and oddly enough we know that mule deer and in many cases sheep populations have dwindled! Strange!

We know that high density mule deer populations are created by managing habitat which is PRODUCTIVE AND OPEN. We know they need to be able to see to avoid predators and we know the things they eat need sunlight, a bit of water and productive soil.

Getting back to your anecdotal world, let's try an experiment. Why don't you try growing a saskatoon berry bush or any kind of bush for that matter in a garage that gets no sunlight and very little water. Plant it in soil that is made up principally of decayed pine needles. Then throw a couple deer in there and see how long they last and how many you have in a couple years. If you want you can throw a pick-up load of knapp weed in there every couple of weeks. Tell me how the experiment works out.


Here's a real quick one which will hopefully help:

http://www.createstrat.com/muledeerinthewest/losingground.html


There's plenty of research and a working group dedicated exclusively to mule deer in North America. The research points to habitat every single time.

This is seriously an exercise in frustration. The worst part is you can't open your eyes enough to see that you are the problem. To be honest the people who drag wildlfie management down in BC even more than the anti's are the people who really don't care for science, wildlife management or habitat restoration and really want to take shots at their fellow hunters. Hunting is not the problem. Close the season and you will not end up with more deer. Change the season and you will not end up with more deer. Shoot a wolf or two and you will not end up with more deer. Shoot a cougar or two and you will not end up with more deer. This is very, very, very basic stuff. If you want more mule deer manage the landscape for mule deer. If you want less wildlife keep doing what you've been doing.

Bashing your fellow hunters, reducing hunting seasons and complaining about the hunting seasons has done what for widllife in the EK? Show me anywhere that this has resulted in healthy and abundant wildlife populations? Show me where it has made any kind of difference? How well has it really worked?

Maybe it's time to try a different approach.