should there be a bounty on white tails.

[SimilkameenSlayer]

no, i'm not really suggesting there should be a bounty on white tails.

however are these tasty critters squeezing out our mule deer?

i don't know that's why i'm asking this dump question.

:-D

[Mr. Dean]

I've always been of the thinking that any species that is placing a negative outcome on native species, should be eradicated from that area - Especially if their expansion was the result of human activity.
Whitetails have there place. And they're also thriving in places they shouldn't be.

Bounty? No.
NBL, antlerless and extended seasons??? Hell Ya!!!

[steel_ram]

I've always been of the thinking that any species that is placing a negative outcome on native species, should be eradicated from that area - Especially if their expansion was the result of human activity.

Like Moose?

If the habitat has changed (likely by humans) to the point where it becomes more suitable for a new species, so be it. Natures finding it's way.

[Mr. Dean]

Like Moose?

If the habitat has changed (likely by humans) to the point where it becomes more suitable for a new species, so be it. Natures finding it's way.

We introduced Moose and they're managed as to not interfere with other species.
If 'they' got outta control, I would holler for the same.

We need to protect what is *rightfully* here.
Nature ISN'T finding it's way; We opened the gate and someone forgot to close it...

[steel_ram]

Are the WT's pushing the MD out of their winter range of their food supply? That's the only place that matters is it not? I usually see the MD up the slopes and the WT on the flats, closer to development. Nature is deciding what critter is best suited for the changing environment. WT's came in on their own.

Guess it boils down to which critter you prefer. I'd rather eat WT than a stinky old MD anyday.

[SimilkameenSlayer]

eh! .... i like stinky old mule deer.

:mrgreen:

[peashooter]

I have seen whitetails "take over" what was previously mule deer filled woods. I think we can keep the gos doe season around for a couple more years at least.

[markt308]

I have seen whitetails "take over" what was previously mule deer filled woods. I think we can keep the gos doe season around for a couple more years at least.


good call.

[6616]

Moose and white tails are native species, not introduced species, they merely expand and shrink their natural ranges as habitat and environmental conditions allow, and sometimes show up in areas where they may not have been for many decades.

Consider that there is only a limited amount of habitat and space available to living creatures. Seems to me that one can fill it up with mule deer, elk, white tailed deer, moose, etc, or a combination of species, but the mix must be kept in an appropriate balance. There's no doubt that if any one species population runs out of control in numbers it will effect the other species on the same habitat. That's why the WTD GOS is appropriate in some areas of BC right now.

As we all have witnessed one can also fill up the available space and habitat with domestic cattle and sub-divisions to the detriment of wildlife if care is not taken.

[silvicon]

What a dumb question!
There should be a bounty on wolves and a GOS on grizzly to get the ungulate population up!

[SimilkameenSlayer]

What a dump question!
There should be a bounty on wolves and a GOS on grizzly to get the ungulate population up!

fixed it for you.

l o l ........

[Looking_4_Jerky]

I have always questioned how much "the whities are taking over" in our neck of the woods. In the 20 years I've been hunting around Kamloops, I've seen no appreciable change in the amount of whities I see. I hunt in numerous areas too, so I'm not just seeing what's going on in one spot where there happen to be very few whities. Having said this, some hunters whose opinions I respect very much swear that they have in fact greatly expanded their range in the last 20-30 years. Although I’m not a huge fan of their habits, I do prefer eating them if they’re going to be taken after late October.

I think having a NBL is a bit agressive and that the current regs are good.

[Mr. Dean]

Moose and white tails are native species, not introduced species, they merely expand and shrink their natural ranges as habitat and environmental conditions allow, and sometimes show up in areas where they may not have been for many decades.


This is what I was meaning, but with a twist.

IMO we *introduced* WT's through opening up new habitat for them.
The reason for them being where they are, is directly 100% because of 'us'.


I was under the impression that Moose were introduced via being transplanted. My bad if I'm incorrect. :redface:

[chilcotin hillbilly]

What a dumb question!
There should be a bounty on wolves and a GOS on grizzly to get the ungulate population up!

You have got that right, this is the only answer!!!

[bigben]

This is what I was meaning, but with a twist.

IMO we *introduced* WT's through opening up new habitat for them.
The reason for them being where they are, is directly 100% because of 'us'.


I was under the impression that Moose were introduced via being transplanted. My bad if I'm incorrect. :redface:

Spoken like a true gentleman and the west kootenay elk where introduced from Jasper national park .........human intervention has put their stamp on everything

[mark]

Id love it if there was a bounty on whitey's, Id hunt them for a living! :)

[dana]

I saw more of them damn vermin than muleys this weekend. This is in an area where they never existed 10 years ago. Did see a pleasurable sight though. 2 of them rats ran and ran and ran and I wondered why? Then I saw the wolf tracks. Hopefully that pack feeds good on those whiteys. :)

[6616]

This is what I was meaning, but with a twist.

IMO we *introduced* WT's through opening up new habitat for them.
The reason for them being where they are, is directly 100% because of 'us'.


I was under the impression that Moose were introduced via being transplanted. My bad if I'm incorrect. :redface:


You're 100% right about the WTD and habitat. Seems like the more we "civilize" the habitat for humans the more favourable it becomes for WTD and the less favourable it gets for MD. Moose are a native species to nearly all of the BC mainland although there probably have been various transplants, just like we've tranplanted goats, sheep, etc to suppliment populations that got into trouble for various reasons.

Bigben is also right, the current elk in the Trail/Castlegar area were introduced (don't know the exact dates) although there probably were elk there historically. The elk further east along the east side of Kootenay Lake and in the Creston area I believe are native populations contiguous with the East Kootenay populations.

[Marlin375]

One thing for sure, White Tails are way harder on Muleys than the "any buck" season. They spend a whole year munching on what would only be eaten by Muleys on winter range. They can have a fawn at 1 year old and they have 2 or 3 every year after that......big frickin rabbits is the best way to discribe them (only cause I won't eat rats)

I say change the White Tail season to 2 per licence year...anytime-anywhere province wide with anything from handguns to hockey sticks

[dana]

I say change the White Tail season to 2 per licence year...anytime-anywhere province wide with anything from handguns to hockey sticks

Best line I've seen on here for a long long time!

[Fisher-Dude]

I think the bounty I was paid this year was a nice selection of tender, mild steaks, roasts, and burger from my doe. Make sure you put some olive oil on the bbq grill, 'cause the fork rips right out of the steak if it sticks! :D

[SimilkameenSlayer]

white tails are aggressive breeders kind of like rabbits.

[ianwuzhere]

i think whitetails taste better then mulies.

[Wild one]

So white tail are expanding their range what is the problem. This not from introduction by humans so leave it be. They may push mule deer out of some areas but they will never push them out completely.

Why not just enjoy the fact that the white tails success helps create another hunting opportunity

[Mr. Dean]

[QUOTE]So white tail are expanding their range what is the problem. This not from introduction by humans so leave it be. They may push mule deer out of some areas but they will never push them out completely.


I argued that earlier.
Wanna form a rebuttal?



Why not just enjoy the fact that the white tails success helps create another hunting opportunity


I think everyone is happy about it.
But why should they get protection to proliferate in areas that aren't traditional to them and are affecting other species that are traditional?

Pushing them 'back' won't cause an extinction, they'll still be all over the place in the traditional areas where they came from.

[Marlin375]

The thought of having to fill out an LEH card for a muley buck in an area that has become overrun with White Tails is a little disturbing.
Assuming this would be the first step in keeping numbers up. MOE must be slightly concerned, they have opened up the WT season. They have invested alot of resources over the years enhancing winter range for the Mulies on the west side okanagan lake, seems to me a population explosion of WT would make it "all for not". Don't get me wrong, I love hunting WT and would rather eat one than a MD, just hate to see the MD on the losing end of the deal.

[6616]

Remember guys there's only so much carrying capacity and space out there for a finite number of deer. They can be all WTD, or all MD, or a mixture of the two and if the mixture is the social decision we go with, we need to be aware that WTD are the better survivors, the better competitors for space and forage, and have a much higher reproduction rate. If WTD are not harvested aggressivelly their numbers may eventually displace mule deer, no one wants that, so the ratio between MD and WTD must be watched closely and reacted upon when WTD numbers threaten to get too high. That's where we're at in region 4 and 8 right now and Region 3 is next to be overpopulated by WTD at the potential detriment of MD.

Not really supporting a bounty, but I certainly support an aggressive WTD harvest regime, including an antlerless season.

[mark]

Remember guys there's only so much carrying capacity and space out there for a finite number of deer. They can be all WTD, or all MD, or a mixture of the two and if the mixture is the social decision we go with, we need to be aware that WTD are the better survivors, the better competitors for space and forage, and have a much higher reproduction rate. If WTD are not harvested aggressivelly their numbers may eventually displace mule deer, no one wants that, so the ratio between MD and WTD must be watched closely and reacted upon when WTD numbers threaten to get too high. That's where we're at in region 4 and 8 right now and Region 3 is next to be overpopulated by WTD at the potential detriment of MD.

Not really supporting a bounty, but I certainly support an aggressive WTD harvest regime, including an antlerless season.

1 idea that keeps coming to my mind is reducing the provincial bag limit for mulies to 2, thus forcing us to hunt at least 1 whitey if we want 3 deer.
It would save 1 mulie, and kill 1 whitey for guys that shoot 3 deer a year.
A small and easy step to save mulies and reduce whiteys???????

[coach]

Makes sense to me, Mark. Do we really need to group both species under one provincial bag limit? Why not separate them? 2 mulies province wide and 2 whitetails? Am I being greedy?

[Fisher-Dude]

I'd rather just see regional bag limits maximized. If someone wants to travel to 3 regions for 3 mulies, fly at 'er I say. The harvest is greatly spread out and localized over harvest is avoided.

What's happening now is people aren't utilizing local WT seasons as much as they could, as they don't want to tag out close to home (think gas prices, etc). We tried to get a 3 deer limit in region 8 to encourage WT harvest but it got shelved. It would be 3 max for region 8, but only 1 MDB, 1 WTD, 1 WTB, and 1 MDD if someone drew an LEH. We felt this would encourage the WT to be harvested, but Penticton conservatively said "no." Apparently region 4 wants to adopt a 3 deer bag limit proposal, and region 3 already changed to a 3 deer limit to encourage WT harvest.

[Marlin375]

2 mulies (1 has to be a 4pt) and 3 WT (2 have to be Does).....Province wide (keep the single MD in reg 8 )

I don't cut my mulie tag most years, waiting for the big archery cranker.
But I put at least 1 WT in the freezer, depending on the amount of Moose in there.

[hunter1947]

I say let nature do its thing I myself don't care for MD I would eat WT over MD any day like I said let nature do its thing..

[Mr. Dean]

I say let nature do its thing I myself don't care for MD I would eat WT over MD any day like I said let nature do its thing..

It isn't nature at work, Wayne.
It was our oversight on manipulating her that created the mess we're in.

Grizz swimming over to the Island is an example of Nature at work.
This is different.

[coach]

I say let nature do its thing I myself don't care for MD I would eat WT over MD any day like I said let nature do its thing..

To what extent, Wayne?

[Wild one]

[QUOTE=Wild one;1019280]


I argued that earlier.
Wanna form a rebuttal?




I think everyone is happy about it.
But why should they get protection to proliferate in areas that aren't traditional to them and are affecting other species that are traditional?

Pushing them 'back' won't cause an extinction, they'll still be all over the place in the traditional areas where they came from.


After reading your other post Dean yes I agree increased farm land has helped WT increase but I doubt that is the only reason. One thing that I say has helped them is most BC hunters target mule deer most often and when they do try to target WT they don't adjust there tactics. The challenge of getting permission on private land in BC is helping them thrive but after talking to landowners and hearing there experiences with hunters I don't blame them for not giving permission. Moose and elk have also increased their range do to man as well but most don't see it as a problem

Honestly in my opinion the biggest problem is how BC manages its game in general but I will not bother debating that on this forum as it is a waste of time

[6616]

Letting nature take it's course might result in a scenario that we will really hate, like a significant natural die-off of both mule deer and WTD. We don't need a bounty but we do need to be harvesting WTD aggressively.

[bigj]

I think we need to be carefull when we say "They were never here before" Talking to a friends dad, who's parents settled in the Caribou, he told us he used to find Elk sheds and hear them bugling, along the border of 5-1 and 3-30, when he was a kid growing up there. I grew up there, I have never seen elk, heard elk, or found any sheds, but if he says they were there you can be sure they were. Elk have been starting to move into the Forest Grove area over the last few years as well, who's to say they weren't there at some time before?? Maybe it's just part of a cycle to big for us to grasp??

[Mr. Dean]

[QUOTE=Mr. Dean;1019313]


After reading your other post Dean yes I agree increased farm land has helped WT increase but I doubt that is the only reason. One thing that I say has helped them is most BC hunters target mule deer most often and when they do try to target WT they don't adjust there tactics. The challenge of getting permission on private land in BC is helping them thrive but after talking to landowners and hearing there experiences with hunters I don't blame them for not giving permission. Moose and elk have also increased their range do to man as well but most don't see it as a problem

Honestly in my opinion the biggest problem is how BC manages its game in general but I will not bother debating that on this forum as it is a waste of time

Up in the mountains, they're adapting to food sources of MD - Like Dana, I see it more and more in reg 3.
I don't think we thought we'd seem 'em up and out of the valley floors....

Moose that I've seen normally browse the tops off of higher bushes, leaving the smaller stuff for MD. Plus they'll winter in deeper snow than MD. I don't *think* there's conflict here over feed sources. But regardless, if there were, then I guess hunters would be called upon to help manage the problem....

Here's my take: Hunting is ALL about Conservation. Any meat or trophy that comes from it, is just a bonus and incentive to get out and getRdone.
Bleeding Hearts and Fuzzy Feelings don't conserve our Wildlife.

There is no doubt in my mind that we have a problem. Hunters that sit back and do nothing only help it get bigger.
If the GOS doe season isn't adding enough incentive for hunters to get on board, then I believe that the pot needs sweetening.


I totally UNDERSTAND the farmers point of view in letting in a bunch of people onto their lands - I deal with it here for waterfowl access and IT IS tough.
I know that the BCWF has taken steps in hoping to address it but I don't know how well it has been received - Maybe one of their reps could expand on that.

[coach]

[QUOTE=Wild one;1020257]

Here's my take: Hunting is ALL about Conservation. Any meat or trophy that comes from it, is just a bonus and incentive to get out and getRdone.
Bleeding Hearts and Fuzzy Feelings don't conserve our Wildlife.



Very well said!

[Moose Guide]

Survival of the fittest!!!!!

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

Guys like hunting mulies because they are easier to get than a whitetail.A big whitetail is superior to a big a mulie as a trophy.

[Moose Guide]

If your worried about the mulies then lobby to have one region(Cariboo) or parts of 2 or 3 regions (where 5,6 and 7 meet) where it is nbl, no closed for whitetails, although I feel sorry for the people who live there after the WT are gone as they will be forced to eat skanky mulie

[steel_ram]

Then all the Mulies and Whitetails will be gone, then who's to blame? Gordo's already gone.

[CanuckShooter]

Guys like hunting mulies because they are easier to get than a whitetail.A big whitetail is superior to a big a mulie as a trophy.

Harharahar....you pulling our leg???

[ElectricDyck]

The antler less whitey i shot this year, although not bad, does not compare to the 2point muley in taste. The muley is almost as good as elk, the small whitey is a little livery tasting. The majority of the whitey does we saw in a couple days of hunting had triplets, we saw about 20 whiteys and about 5 muleys a day, although we were targeting whiteys.

I think adding another whitetail to the overall bag limit wouldn't effect their numbers, they breed better than muleys and don't seem to stop to look back as often when you bump them like muleys do, not to mention how fricken fast they can run!

[lovemywinchester]

The antler less whitey i shot this year, although not bad, does not compare to the 2point muley in taste. The muley is almost as good as elk, the small whitey is a little livery tasting. The majority of the whitey does we saw in a couple days of hunting had triplets, we saw about 20 whiteys and about 5 muleys a day, although we were targeting whiteys.

I think adding another whitetail to the overall bag limit wouldn't effect their numbers, they breed better than muleys and don't seem to stop to look back as often when you bump them like muleys do, not to mention how fricken fast they can run!

I have to agree with you. The wt spiker I shot in Sept. was very good and the chops are delicious. I shot a 2 point mulie in Oct. outside Kamloops and I have to say I enjoy it more than the WT. They are both great but the mulie just tastes better to me.

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

I think what the deer is feeding on and how clean of a kill it was ,has a lot to do with the quality of meat.For example if the 2 point mulie is feeding in alphala fields every night and you shot him once and field dressed and hung him quickly he will taste better than a whitetail doe that does not feed on alphalpa and needed two shots to dispatch.This is just an example there are alot of variables that go into achieving the best quality of meat from an animal.

[Fella]

Total noob question, it seems like some of you guys consider whities to be pests. Why is that?

[ElectricDyck]

I think what the deer is feeding on and how clean of a kill it was ,has a lot to do with the quality of meat.For example if the 2 point mulie is feeding in alphala fields every night and you shot him once and field dressed and hung him quickly he will taste better than a whitetail doe that does not feed on alphalpa and needed two shots to dispatch.This is just an example there are alot of variables that go into achieving the best quality of meat from an animal.

That is true but both deer dropped on the spot and died in under a minute and were hung in cool weather. Both deer were within 5km of fields. The blacktails I shoot are nowhere near any fields, shot in warmer weather and taste superior to both muleys and whiteys? Maybe bark and dirt are the preferred diet for a good tasting deer? LOL

That aside I'd shoot another whitey given the opportunity. They sure don't seem to be effected by last years antlerless season.

[hunter1947]

Tell this how many hunters took a WT doe over a buck this year in the EK ,I no I did not and by me or others not taking a doe is not helping the buck to doe ratio this is one thing that the management wants is to reduce the number of WT does..

[SimilkameenSlayer]

is this true? "the more WT you kill, the more they breed back."

[Mr. Dean]

[QUOTE=Moose Guide;1020481]Survival of the fittest!!!!!


If that is your philosophy, the we'd have water systems FULL of perch and walleye, instead of kammy rainbows.


[QUOTE=hunter1947;1020745]Tell this how many hunters took a WT doe over a buck this year in the EK ,I no I did not and by me or others not taking a doe is not helping the buck to doe ratio this is one thing that the management wants is to reduce the number of WT does..


I think your right; the new season wasn't utilized.

In the area I hunt, I'm a "stranger in town". Even to the store clerks that I see every year - Sure, they recognize me and some even remember my name but, I'm still a stranger and can't get farm access. I must have talked to 12 different land owners this year..... Until farmers somehow get on board, I don't think we'll see much out of this season.

WTS, studies have found that promotion NEEDS to have 3 meetings before a transfer takes place - I'll knock on the same doors again, next year. :wink:

[Mr. Dean]

Total noob question, it seems like some of you guys consider whities to be pests. Why is that?

They're moving into habitat and expanding their range that's non traditional and affecting other species.
Their population has EXPLODED.

Not so much as a pest but things aren't ballanced anymore.

[Mr. Dean]

I think your right; the new season wasn't utilized.

In the area I hunt, I'm a "stranger in town". Even to the store clerks that I see every year - Sure, they recognize me and some even remember my name but, I'm still a stranger and can't get farm access. I must have talked to 12 different land owners this year..... Until farmers somehow get on board, I don't think we'll see much out of this season.

WTS, studies have found that promotion NEEDS to have 3 meetings before a transfer takes place - I'll knock on the same doors again, next year. :wink:

Too add:

The Farmers that I've talked with didn't realize the problem that is trying to be addressed. Somehow, they need to be informed in another way than from a "stranger in town"

THAT was probably my biggest hurdle....